EP. 105 NEW YORK - Maksim Gelman: The NYC Killing Spree of 2011
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He's the most terrifying serial killer you've never heard of. Haddon Clark has confessed to several murders, but investigators say he could have over 100 victims. At the center of the mayhem, a cellmate of Haddon's that was able to get key evidence into Haddon's murder spree across America,

because Haddon thought he was Jesus Christ. Born Evil, the Serial Killer and the Savior, an ID true crime event. Premieres Monday, September 2nd at 9. Watch on ID or stream on Max. Set your DVR.

This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned. New York is one of the most populated states in America.

And every day, millions of people walk the busy streets. Some of them are New York natives, maybe walking to work. Others are tourists from all over the world, visiting all of the famous attractions. But everywhere you go, you'll see thousands of faces from all walks of life. And you don't know who these people are, what they've done, or what they're capable of.

Most of us don't even consider the fact that there could be dangerous people walking around us. People that can hurt you. After all, there's safety in numbers. And the likelihood of you getting attacked among everyone else is pretty unlikely. But as we've learned throughout this podcast, sometimes the odds don't work out in our favor.

And that was the case for a number of people in New York in February of 2011. In our case for today, we are going to talk about a man named Maxime Gelman, who spent a whole 28 hours terrorizing Brooklyn and New York City. This paranoid madman began his spree by stabbing and killing the people who he believed had wronged him.

Then, in his attempts to flee, he stabbed multiple other innocent bystanders, hijacked several cars, ran a man over in the street, and then, for his grand finale, he tried to hijack a New York subway train. But while on that subway, Maxime Gelman encountered a man named Joe Lozito.

Maxime tried to make Joe his fifth murder victim that day, but luckily, after being stabbed seven times, Joe was able to fight him off. And because of his actions that day, he single-handedly took down New York's free killer, Maxime Gelman. So, this is his story.

We are so happy to have Joe on the show today to tell us about his experience. So everyone get ready because this is a wild case. I'm Courtney Browen. I'm Colin Browen. I'm Joe Lozito. And as always, you're listening to Murder in America.

Maxim Gelman was born on May 31, 1987, in Ukraine. His father immigrated to the U.S. in 1992 on a refugee visa, and two years later, in 1994, Maxim and his mother, Svetlana, would join him. Once in the U.S., the Gelman family settled in the Sheepshead Bay area of Brooklyn, but life was not easy for the family here in America. Not long after arriving, Maxim's father would abandon them and move back to Ukraine after acquiring U.S. citizenship.

And being an only child in a new country, six-year-old Max struggled to find acceptance here. He didn't have many friends and spent a lot of time alone. When Max was a teenager, Svetlana remarried a man named Alexander Kuznetsov, and from the beginning, he and Max did not have a great relationship.

His mom was really the only person in his life, so it's likely that Max didn't like the fact that someone else was getting attention. In addition, Max would later say that he didn't like the way Alexander treated his mom. He was known to be verbally and physically abusive to her and even lashed out at Maxim, who often referred to his stepfather as the asshole. He would later tell A&E, quote,

I developed a disgust for him because he would get drunk and he wouldn't be respectful to my mother and I didn't like that." Max attended Abraham Lincoln High School in Brooklyn and according to the people that knew him, he didn't have a lot of friends.

He was kind of considered an outcast. In an interview with the New York Times, Maxim's old friend Richard Shadron told Real Crime and Their Episode titled A Rampage in New York that "When he was young, he was an outsider. He definitely didn't have a lot of friends. He was shy and not confident enough in himself. I guess that's kind of what made him into a worse person."

And to cope with everything, he really found an interest in graffiti. Before long, Max was spending his nights going around Brooklyn, making his mark all across town. After high school, he would get into some trouble for this too. Too many of the graffiti artists who knew him said that he was often an unwanted troublemaker. His friend Richard said he would see people that he knew from graffiti and he would try to start a street fight. Max's graffiti got him arrested for vandalism, and this wouldn't be the only time he got in trouble with the law. He

He would also be arrested for things like harassment and burglary, and then later on, murder. The only real friend we were able to find of Maxime's was a man named Richard. And in 2008, they would have a falling out after Max came after him with a knife. So from very early on, it was clear that he had a violent side. Before his killing spree, he had a total of six felonies on his record.

Max was known to hang out with a pretty rough crowd. And it almost seemed like he liked the fact that he was this dangerous tough guy living life on the edge. He never really had any stable jobs and he spent most of his free time doing drugs, working on his graffiti, and posting videos of his work on his Flickr and YouTube accounts. Now, Max's drug use is a huge part of this story.

While he was on the streets, he began experimenting with drugs like crack cocaine, PCP, and prescription pills. According to a jail interview, Max said that he eventually became a mid-level drug dealer in South Brooklyn, moving thousands of dollars of cocaine, heroin, and Oxycontin multiple times a week.

In his own mind, he was this glorified drug dealer who was well known throughout Brooklyn. But other accounts suggest otherwise. Yes, Max dealt drugs, but his biggest client was himself. He was known to dabble in his own supply, and he definitely wasn't this big shot like he liked to make himself out to be.

But nevertheless, his use of PCP is what ultimately led to his downfall in early 2011.

PCP, which is also known as angel dust, is a drug that can alter someone's perception of reality, making them feel a false sense of power, strength, and invincibility. It can also cause hallucinations and trigger aggression. In some cases, abusing PCP can also cause paranoia and bizarre behavior, which is exactly what happened in Max's case. On February 11th, 2011, 23-year-old Max had just purchased a kilo of cocaine,

and he was driving through Brooklyn when he became overwhelmed with a sense of paranoia. He looks in his rearview mirrors, then he glances at the car surrounding him and he begins to panic. From what he could see, these cars had been following him for a while and they didn't have official license plates, which to him can only mean one thing. The feds are following him.

Suddenly, hundreds of thoughts are running through Maxime's mind. For months now, he had a feeling that the FBI and the DEA were following him. Not only were there unmarked cars following him around the city, but he also said that his cell phone would randomly start calling numbers and that his phone's battery life was draining at an alarming speed. Now, you and I understand that phones just do that sometimes.

But with the amount of PCP that Max had been taking, he was convinced that he was being followed and that the FBI was tapping his phone. Along this drive, Max becomes so paranoid, he actually pulls over on the Brooklyn Bridge, grabs the kilo of cocaine, rips it open, and dumps it out into the water below. But even after getting rid of his supply, it still didn't help with his paranoia.

He just knew deep within him that the feds were right on his tail. So he quickly made his way home and began searching online for a plane ticket out of the country. He had to get out of here as soon as possible, and he booked the first trip he could find to the Dominican Republic. But as he started to pack his things to flee, Max remembered that his passport was still at his mother's house.

So from here, he gets in his car and he makes his way over to her home. Svetlana was well aware of her son's criminal history. Max had always been a wild card, always getting into trouble, but she truly could have never known what he was capable of. She would soon, however.

At around 5 am that morning, Svetlana was fast asleep in bed with her husband, Alexander, when she suddenly woke up to the sound of someone banging on her front door. She quickly gets out of bed to see what's going on and outside she finds her son, Maxim Gelman. Like any mother would, she lets him inside.

But almost immediately she can tell that something's wrong. Max had a wild look in his eye as he began running through the home repeatedly saying, "Where's my passport? Where is it? Hurry, I gotta get out of here." Svetlana tries to calm him down and she says, "Okay, slow down, tell me what's going on." But Maxim doesn't have time for an explanation. And he tells his mom that the feds are after him and he's gotta leave the country now.

But Svetlana can tell that Max is not in the right state of mind. She assumes that he's had too much to drink, so she tells him, why don't you just stay here? You don't need to be driving around right now if you've been drinking. Now, at this point, Alexander, her husband, and Maxime's stepfather comes out of the bedroom.

After hearing all of the commotion, he wants to know what's going on. But when Max sees him, he's sent into a rage. He's always hated his stepfather with a burning passion. Now, I'm sure Alexander was upset at the fact that Max came to their home at 5 a.m. and was waking everyone up. Max would later tell A&E's Killer Speaks...

So this guy comes in stinking, just a fat ugly Russian with some dirty briefs and a gut talking all kinds of obscenities in Russian. I was paranoid and I was angry. I don't want to hear his shit. Just a few feet away in the kitchen, Max spots a butcher knife. And without hesitation, he walks over and grabs it. Svetlana is standing there in shock as she watches her son walk over to her husband.

and stab him over and over and over again. Alexander begins to scream, begging for his wife to call the police. Svetlana is hysterical, begging for Max to stop, but he's unfazed and he continues to unleash his anger on his stepfather. The knife he was using actually breaks, but he's not finished just yet.

From there, he stands up and grabs another knife and continues on with his stabbing rampage. Alexander was likely already dead, but Max had no plans of stopping. At one point, he even looked up at his mom, who had the phone in her hands. Max would later say,

Now, Max would contradict himself a little here, but later on, he would say that his intention that night wasn't to kill his stepdad. He just wanted to grab his passport, say his goodbyes, and leave. But that's clearly not how the night would end.

After stabbing Alexander 55 times, right in front of his mother, he knows he has to get out of there. The police were already on their way, so he quickly grabs Alexander's car keys and takes off down the road. As he drives off into the night, Max feels a huge rush of adrenaline. He also feels absolutely no remorse. But as the adrenaline begins to fade, the paranoia sets in once again.

and this time even stronger than before. He would later say, "I realized I have the Feds on me and I just caught a body and I'm probably not going to come home anytime soon."

By this point, NYPD put a "be on the lookout" for Alexander's 2004 Lexus out, and all of the patrol cars throughout Brooklyn and New York City were keeping an eye out for 23-year-old Maxim Gelman. Now he had a reason to be paranoid. NYPD Detective Joe Giacalone had the task of overseeing Alexander's murder, but no one had any idea that the man they were looking for would unleash a reign of terror for the next 24 hours.

In an interview with the New York Post, Maxim would later say that he did plan on killing his stepdad that night and that he told his mother about his plans to kill him.

He said that he was part of a cocaine crew called Brighton Beach, and that in this gang, he became a high-level cocaine dealer making hundreds of thousands of dollars and sleeping with high-end prostitutes. He said he made enough money to purchase two condos, one in Florida and another in Bergen Beach, Brooklyn. But recently, his stepdad tried to take all the condos from him, so he planned on killing him. And he said that he told his mom all about these plans, and to his understanding, she was okay with it.

So while he was stabbing Alexander and he looked up to see his mom calling the police, he was shocked. He couldn't believe the fact that his own mom was ratting on him. However, he would later say that he forgave her because she had never seen somebody get killed before. And in his mind, she just freaked out at the fact that he actually followed through with it. And now we're going to take our first ad break.

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Babbel, language for life. And now let's get back to today's story. - Now, one thing you'll quickly learn about Maxime Gelman is that a lot of what he says just isn't true. He didn't have these big condos and he definitely wasn't making hundreds of thousands of dollars being a drug dealer. So it's pretty clear that he never told his mom about his plans to kill his stepdad. He was asked why he didn't kill his mom that night too.

to which he said, "I love my mother. I would never hurt my mother. So I took the keys and I left." After leaving his mom's house, Max drives out of the city considering his next move. He knows that it's only a matter of time until the police find him and take him to jail. So while he's still at large, he decides that he's going to take down everyone that has wronged him. And a few people immediately come to mind.

The first being 20 year old Yelena Bolchenko, a dental hygienist in Brooklyn.

According to Yelena's loved one, she was a very good and loving person who came from a great family. Her friend Renata said that she had lost both of her parents and during that time, Yelena and her mother Anna really took her under their wing and treated her like family. Yelena had a good head on her shoulders. She had ambition and she did really well in school. But at some point, she and Maxim Gelman crossed paths. And it was around this time when her loved ones started to notice a change in her.

While Yelena was friends with Max, she started hanging out with the wrong crowd and eventually started experimenting with drugs. Not long after, her family started noticing her grades slipping. Now, according to Max, he and Yelena were more than just friends, and he would later say, "When I met her, she was very easygoing. She was cool, she was attracted to me, and we flirted and whatnot. I thought she was all right."

But Yelena's friends told a completely different story. According to them, Yelena was a little creeped out by Max. She was dating a man named Gerard at the time, and she always felt like his advances toward her were a little out of line, and she was honestly scared of him. So much so that she had to change her phone number because he wouldn't stop calling her. But that didn't stop him from driving by her house at all hours of the day, and even showing up at her doorstep uninvited. On one occasion, he went to her home and was banging on the door yelling, "If you don't open this door, I'm gonna kill you!"

Yelena was frightened of Maxim, but there wasn't much she could do to keep him from stalking her. Her boyfriend Gerard would later say, "She said he was creepy. He would try to harass her to stalk her, but she was never with him, never tried to be with him, nothing." And believe it or not, police would later find a drug den under the Long Island Railroad tracks where Maxim was known to spend a lot of time.

The area was littered with hypodermic needles, empty liquor bottles, dirty blankets, and graffiti all over the walls. It was a refuge for outlaws. In that den, they also found sort of a shrine to Elena and a graffiti heart with her name in the center. So it's clear that he obviously had an unhealthy obsession with her.

Now again, Maxime is a liar so we can't believe everything he says, but he claimed shortly before 2011, Yelena was helping him run drugs around Brooklyn and he said that he paid her a couple hundred dollars a day to drive him around. And then one day, he came home and he noticed that his home had been burglarized and that someone had stolen his drug supply.

And immediately he was convinced that Yelena was responsible. But Yelena's friends said that that wasn't true at all. First of all, she was definitely not helping him sell drugs. In fact, Yelena didn't even know how to drive, so there was no way she was driving him around Brooklyn. Now, one of Maxim's friends from high school would say that he had a rocky relationship with women.

During his first sexual encounter, Max ended up getting a serious STD and the lingering side effects would make it so that he could never have a normal sexual relationship going forward. After high school, he didn't have many interactions with women until Yelena came around. But her friendliness was taken out of context and once Max started being creepy, she decided to distance herself.

And Yelena's loved ones believe that that is the reason he targeted her. Not because she set him up to get robbed, but because she declined his advances. But to this day, Max sticks by his story. In an interview with the New York Post, he said, "I wanted to tell my side of the story. She was never my girlfriend. She had a pretty face, but too skinny for me. I never stalked her. She knew how much money I had and wanted to set me up for a robbery.

In that morning, on February 11th, 2011, as he drove around New York, he was ready for revenge. But first, he needed some breakfast. So he took his stepfather's car through a McDonald's drive-thru and ordered a strawberry milkshake and some chicken nuggets. Then, at around 10 a.m., while the entire city was looking for him,

He drove by Yelena's home that she shared with her mom Anna. Interestingly enough, her house was only 4 blocks away from his mother's house where he had just murdered his stepfather hours earlier. But once there, he parked his car and knocked on Yelena's front door. Little did he know, however, Yelena wasn't home. She was about 2 blocks down at a friend's house.

The only person there at the time was Yelena's mother, Anna. She worked from home every day as a travel agent, and she was actually on the phone with a customer when she heard someone at her front door. Anna walks over and opens it, and out on her front porch is the man that had been harassing her daughter. Max would later say that Anna invited him inside, but that's probably not the case.

he likely pushed his way in. But once inside of her home, Max asks, "Where's Yelena?" Anna knew that she was at a friend's house, but she wasn't going to tell him that. So instead, she says that Yelena's at work and she won't be home for a while. "Well, where does she work?" Max asks. But Anna refuses to tell him. From here, Max corners her, brandishing his knife.

and demanding that she give up Yelena's location. And apparently, the client that Anna had been on the phone with overheard this altercation. He said that he heard a male voice followed by a scream and then the phone went dead. Inside of the home, Max had his knife pressed up against her. And knowing she was in grave danger, Anna tries to make a run for the front door. She actually got it open.

and a neighbor was right outside. But before she could yell for help, Max slams the door shut. From here, Anna runs into the kitchen, trying to get away from him, but Max follows close behind. He continues to ask for Yelena's location, but Anna isn't giving it up. So it's here where Max towers over the 56-year-old mother and begins to stab her.

In a prison interview, Max said, "I couldn't get Yelena because she wasn't there. Might as well get her mother because she's the closest person to her." During Anna's brutal stabbing, her last words were, "I'll never tell you where my daughter is." And after stabbing her about 12 times, Anna would die on her kitchen floor.

Max would later talk about the fact that she refused to give up her daughter's location, saying, quote, she died in honor. She didn't die like a coward, end quote.

After murdering Anna Bolchenko, Max leaves her home and takes off in the stolen Lexus. A neighbor and a friend of Anna's named Brigitte Ethington would later tell CBS News that the Bolchenko family had just moved into that home about a month before the murders. She said, "Anna was the most beautiful woman, very vibrant, vivacious, and personality, very sunny. She left a deposit with you. If you met her, you'd be really happy."

At the time, no one had any idea that Anna had just been murdered by Maxim Gelman. And after leaving, he started searching for other people to kill. He would later say that he had about four to five people in mind.

He claimed that these people had ratted him out to the feds, but again, that just wasn't true. He drove by some of their homes several times, but they weren't there. So instead, he just drove around keeping an eye out for Yelena. Now, around 3:30 PM, Yelena's friend Renata said that she had gotten word that Max had killed his stepfather and was a wanted man. And she immediately thought of Yelena since he had been harassing her. So Renata calls Yelena to warn her that Max was on the run. But Yelena assures her friend that she's okay.

And she tells her, "Don't worry, I'm actually walking home right now, so I'll be fine." And while she's putting the keys into the front door, she tells Renata that she would call her right back. Little did she know, she would never get the chance. Yelena had no idea that Maxim had already come by the home to pay her a visit.

And once she walked inside and made her way to the kitchen, she would find her mother's lifeless body lying in a pool of blood. In a panic, Yelena calls 911 and she runs out into the front yard screaming for someone to help her. While waiting for the police to arrive, she calls her friend Alexandra and hysterically tells her what happened.

Word eventually gets around to her boyfriend Gerard, who immediately leaves work and rushes over to her house. But Yelena had no idea that Maxime Gelman was just around the corner, waiting for her to come home. And as soon as he spots her, he drives over and hops out of the car with his knife in hand. There were neighbors watching this entire thing.

And as Yelena saw him moving towards her, she let out a scream and quickly ran behind a neighbor that was standing nearby. She was afraid of Max, and from the deranged look in his eye, she knew that he had been the person responsible for her mother's murder. And as he got closer, Yelena yelled out, "He's going to kill me!"

The neighbor attempted to block her from Max, but he wasn't going to leave until she was dead. Max pushes the neighbor aside and is now face to face with Yelena. And it's here where he begins to repeatedly stab her with the same knife he used to kill her mother. All of the neighbors watch in horror as Yelena took a few steps backward and then collapsed onto the sidewalk.

Once she was down, Max quickly runs back to his car, puts it in reverse, and begins to drive away. But then he stops, and he thinks to himself that she might still be alive, and he wanted to make sure that she was dead. So he actually gets out of his car and walks back over to her. Max then grabs Yelena by her hair, lifts her head up,

and slits her throat from ear to ear. Responding Fire and Rescue had just pulled up to the scene and they were actually able to see Maxime there. One fireman even attempted to pursue him, but somehow he was able to flee the scene. Paramedics desperately tried to save Yelena's life and she was still breathing when they arrived, but not long after she would succumb to her injuries.

Yelena's boyfriend, Gerard, arrived in time to find her house surrounded by police cars, ambulances, and fire trucks. So he rushed out of his car and jumped the police barricade. A police officer immediately grabbed him and asked who he was. He said that he was Yelena's boyfriend as he scanned the scene for any sign of her, but she still wasn't there. The only thing that he saw was a pool of blood near a tree on the sidewalk. Gerard fell to the ground upon seeing the chaos that surrounded him. He was in a state of disbelief, wondering how all of this had happened so fast.

but he knew exactly who was responsible. Together with police, Gerard would paint an eerie picture of a man obsessed with his girlfriend, and it was here where the police were able to link the brutal stabbing of Alexander to the stabbings of Anna and Yelena Bolchenko. And the stakes were high because police officers and detectives knew that if Maxim Gelman wasn't caught, he was going to kill more people. And he would.

And something that's just so disgusting is that Maxim still, to this day, feels no remorse for what he did. He would later say, "She set me up to get robbed, you know? She pretty much marked herself dead over there. When you're in the street, there's certain things you don't do. To every action has a reaction. Karma's a bitch." But after fleeing from the crime scene, Maxim wasn't finished wreaking havoc on the city, and he knew he needed to ditch his car. By now, the news of his crimes were all over New York City, and it was only a matter of time until someone would spot him driving around.

Up ahead, he spots a man driving a Pontiac, so he quickly hops out of his car and approaches his vehicle. The 57-year-old inside of the Pontiac had no idea that the man at his window was responsible for a triple homicide, so he rolled the window down. But as soon as he did, Max pulls out his knife and jumps through the window, screaming at the man to get out of the car.

In shock, the man froze and didn't move, so Maxime proceeded to stab him twice. Luckily, the man was able to get out of the car before any more damage was done, and thankfully he would survive his injuries. In a prison interview, Maxime said, "I just needed the car. I didn't want to kill no innocent people. I needed to get around." So they asked him, "Well, why did you stab an innocent person?"

And he responds, "Well, they're not just gonna give up the car just like that." From here, Maxim takes off down the road in the stolen Pontiac as the police learn that he stabbed yet another person. And by now, he's flying through the streets. He knows he needs to get out of there quickly, so he's running through all of the red lights and stop signs.

At a nearby intersection, 62-year-old Steven Tannenbaum had just started to walk across the street when Maxime's stolen Pontiac blew through the crosswalk, hitting him at full speed. Maxime said that he didn't even see the man, he just heard a loud noise on the roof of the car. Apparently, he had hit Steven with such force that his body flew over the car and landed in the street.

Bystanders in the area rushed over to Steven who was unconscious and they quickly called the police to report the hit and run. And this part makes me so sad but Steven was a rare coin collector and he was apparently the best of the best. At the time that he was hit, he was carrying a briefcase full of coins.

and when the paramedics arrived they found him unconscious surrounded by hundreds of rare coins all around him stephen was taken to a local hospital but he was pronounced dead upon arrival he was maxime's fourth murder victim maxine would later comment on the hit and run saying quote that was a total accident i was just trying to get away because the police weren't stopping

Shit happens. I didn't plan for it to happen. You know, sometimes things happen in life. What a disgusting monster. And now we're going to take our second ad break. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. I'm learning new things about myself all the time, especially being married and having someone that you live with 24-7. It's really weird how Courtney has shown me things that I do or things that I shouldn't do in my life and how I never would have known about these things if I was just sitting alone in my apartment.

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And now, back to today's story.

It was now becoming dark outside and the manhunt for Maxim was well underway. News reports were being shown regarding a madman on the loose and people were scared. Every cop in New York had studied his face and was keeping an eye out for him. And the NYPD was actively searching the city because they knew he wasn't going to stop hurting people until he was caught. And they were right. Maxim was definitely not ready to end his rampage, but first he wanted to get some rest.

At around 6:30 p.m., the sun had started to set over Brooklyn. Helicopters were still flying over the city, trying to find him, so Maxim decided to ditch the car he was in and spend a few hours hiding in an abandoned tunnel. He was familiar with these tunnels because during his teenage years, this was the area where he liked to tag graffiti.

A former friend of Maxim's would tell police that Max knew the tunnels like the back of his hand, and he had always wondered if Maxim lived in them because he knew them so well. But at around 1:00 a.m., Maxim started to grow paranoid about being in Brooklyn. He was now in Crown Heights, a central borough in Brooklyn, and he knew he needed to find another car so he could flee the city.

At the time, 55-year-old Fitz Fullerton was working the night shift as a driver when he spotted a man heading towards his Lincoln Tow Car. Maxim jumped into the back seat where another passenger, a woman, was using the driver's services. She immediately screamed and jumped out of the car as Maxim held his 8-inch knife to Fitz's neck and told him to drive or he was going to be killed.

Fitz would later recall that he continued to struggle at Knife Point until his Lincoln Town car hit a parked van. Maxim immediately fled the area, leaving Fitz with deep gashes in his hands and a wound to his face. He dialed 911 and was taken to Brookdale Hospital where he would survive his injuries. But after exiting the Lincoln, Maxim headed back up the street nearly a mile from the scene and spotted 25-year-old Sheldon Pottinger sitting in his Nissan Altima. It was nearly 1 a.m.,

and Sheldon had been sitting in his car with the engine running, waiting for his wife after a late night church service. At first, Sheldon saw Maxime running towards him and he thought it was a jogger. That was until he opened up the car door and screamed that he was going to kill him if he didn't get out of the car. He then brandished an 8 inch knife. Frightened for his life,

Sheldon tried to kick and hit at Maxime to push him away, but he was too strong. Before he knew it, Sheldon watched as he jumped into the car and pushed him into the passenger seat. Maxime then hit the gas, and the car accelerated at a high speed. Sheldon tried to defend himself and repeatedly punched and kicked at Maxime, telling him to slow down.

Max stabs at Sheldon as the two make their way down the road. Sheldon would later tell a local news reporter that he had grabbed onto Maxime's hand as they sped down the road, and he was trying to prevent him from stabbing him. Now, faced with the frightening reality of the situation, Sheldon decided that he needed to get out of that car if he wanted to live.

At this point, Max was driving about 80 miles an hour when Sheldon opened the door and jumped out of the moving car. Maxime would later say that he watched as Sheldon hit the pavement and did flips in the street before coming to a stop. And afterwards, he thought to himself, quote, Wow, that guy is insane. Interesting coming from him. But after Sheldon hit the pavement, Max

He said he got up and he just started running as fast as he could. He said, "I ran back down to the church. I couldn't talk because I hit my back on the floor. When I reached the church, I passed out on the floor. I know it was God that saved me. I know that for a fact because I was just coming out of church." Luckily, Sheldon would survive with only two superficial stab wounds and some bruises.

Here he is describing the incident. This guy was driving fast. And I pushed myself out of the car, holding a knife. And I opened the door, I pushed myself out and I fell on the floor. I get up and I start running. I run back down to the church.

After fleeing the scene in Sheldon's vehicle, Maxim continued to drive and eventually ended up in Queens. He was exhausted after a long day of killing four people and injuring three more, so he decided to park the stolen car in a garage and wait there until the sun came up. And then around 5:30 AM, 24 hours into his killing spree, he decided it was time to take off. He turned the key in the ignition, but it wouldn't start, so he was forced to leave on foot.

While walking through Queens, Maxim was once again paranoid, constantly looking over his shoulder to see if the cops were nearby. He ended up stopping at a deli and bought himself a sandwich and soda. Then, when he was finished, he continued on foot. He said that during his walk, he noticed a man following him, and he was sure that he was a police officer. And that wasn't the case. Maxim was just paranoid.

But thinking that the feds were on his tail, he decided to slip into the nearby train station, and he hopped right on a train that was headed towards Manhattan. It was now close to 8:30 am, and the entire city was well aware of the Brooklyn Butcher, as the newspapers were calling him. His face had been plastered all over social media and on the front page of every local newspaper. Meanwhile, Maxim was jumping around to different subway cars, trying to avoid the police. And while he was on one of these subways, he noticed a woman reading a newspaper.

When he took a closer look, he saw that his mugshot was on the front page. Shortly after this, the woman looks up from the paper and sees Maxim. She then looks down at his picture and glances up at him again. She knew right then and there that she was in the subway with the Brooklyn butcher the police were looking for. But Maxim noticed her frightened stares, and he actually approached her and said,

Do you believe what they're writing about me?" The woman kept her distance, and right when the subway stopped at 96th Street, she got off and immediately informed police. Maxim got off that subway as well, but by now, the police had an idea of where he was, so they dispatched multiple units to the subway station, and Maxim Gelman knows that law enforcement is closing in. But his years spent hiding out in abandoned train tunnels would become beneficial, because from here, he slips into the dark tunnels to escape police.

And as he's doing so, he sees a subway train approaching at a slow pace. So he jumps on the outside of it and starts coming up with a plan. With the knife still hidden in his jacket sleeve, Maxim decides he's going to hijack the subway. Little did he know, however, that the subway he planned to hijack was headed straight for Times Square, one of the busiest transit hubs in the world. Maxim Gelman had no idea that there were already two police officers on board that subway.

They were in the engineer's booth after learning that a spree killer was somewhere at the station. Also on board was a man named Joe Lozito.

I just want to thank you guys for reaching out. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. We want to thank you for joining us today. We're so happy to have you on. You're actually our first guest on Murder in America. So, well, that's good. I could be the best and the worst. Oh, you're going to be great. There's nothing to compare you against. So it's like, well, that's it. I'm not setting the bar very high probably, but we'll go from there. Right.

We are so happy that Joe agreed to come on the show today because he's actually the man that took Maxime Gelman down. And if it wasn't for him and his actions that day, many more people could have been affected by this horrific tragedy. But we are going to walk you through Joe's story and how he crossed paths with New York City's most wanted man in 2011. Thanks for reaching out. You know why it's important to me is because

every time someone like you guys reaches out to me, it gives me an opportunity to speak about it and, and to actually get the truth out there because there's a lot of bullshit. And, um, you know, it's important for me to keep the story alive. It's the only recourse I have now, honestly. So, um, so it's always, uh, and I don't mind talking about it. So you guys should know there's a, there's nothing out of bounds. There's nothing off limits. And, um, you can ask me anything and, uh, and I'll answer it, but I appreciate the opportunity here.

In 2011, Joe was actually living in Philadelphia with his wife and two sons. He told us that back in 2005 he was working for a card company that eventually went bankrupt. So he was out of a job for a few months and things weren't easy.

This was in 2005, so it was like before all these big collapses and stuff like that. So I was out of work for three months, which at the time was huge. It wasn't like now where people are out of work for one year, two year, where three months is a drop in the bucket. At the time, three months was huge. And I have two little kids and I have my wife and our support staff is all up here in New York. And we're the only ones down in Philly.

After being out of a job for a few months, Joe was trying to find a new job so he could support his family. And he was eventually offered a position at the Lincoln Center Theater in Manhattan. And that's where he was employed at the time of our story. Now, the commute from Philadelphia to Manhattan is about two and a half hours by train. And Joe made that commute every single day so he could support his family.

We loved Philly though. We loved it so much. And I, and you know, the commute sucked. I mean, I'll be honest with you. It did, but you know, Philly, as you guys know, it's way more affordable than a lot of places. It was way more affordable than coming back here. So my whole thing is my family. And if it was the best thing for us,

I would make that. And I'm not I'm not special. I'm just a guy. I'm a parent. You know, it's not like I make a sacrifice and I want to pat on the back. That's how it should be. But yeah, I was commuting two and a half hours each way up to the city every day. You know, one two and a half hours one way to Lincoln Center and then back at night.

So Joe spent a lot of time on these trains. And from personal experience, we've learned that they're not the safest places in the world. So we asked Joe if he ever had to run into any seedy characters before this incident. I've often said that, uh,

I look a certain way, but you know, when people that know me know I'm a pretty easygoing guy and everything. But when you look like this, I think I'm generally the seediest looking person in a lot of situations. So what God didn't give me in good looks, maybe he gave me in other aspects. So, uh, I'm about six, two and I have, I have my head shaved and everything, and I got this big beard here. So a lot of times people would just leave me alone and, you know, but no, I mean, you

And this day was just like any other. Joe got on the train in Philly and started his two and a half hour commute to Manhattan. But interestingly enough...

After arriving in New York City, he had one last short train ride until he arrived at the Lincoln Center. The train he usually took, however, was under construction. He still could have taken that train, but it would have added some extra time on his commute. So at the last minute, he decided to take a different train. A decision that would change everything.

That was one of the more interesting decisions I've ever made in my life. But that's exactly what happened. I just said, well, I'm standing here. And like I said, it had happened before. You know, it's the subways. There's always going to have to be some sort of construction.

Since then, however, Joe said that he doesn't change trains anymore, specifically because of what happened that day. Crazy how little decisions throughout your day changed everything. Like if you wouldn't have taken that one, it maybe would have been someone else. And then maybe they wouldn't have been as lucky. So that's wild to us. Well, here's something else you might find wild. After everything went down, which of course we'll get into, I didn't find this out till the next day.

Now, I asked Joe what he was doing while he was on the subway.

Was he reading the paper or on his phone? But he said no, he wasn't doing any of that. He was just sort of observing his surroundings. I ride the subway differently now than I did back then, but I've always had my guard up because growing up in New York,

you know it's a haven for crime. You always wanted to keep your guard up on the subway. So no, I was just kind of hanging out because the duration of the trip from Penn Station to my job was probably five or six minutes. It wasn't like I had time to do anything. But while Joe was sitting on the train for the last few minutes of his commute, he saw two police officers enter the subway and make their way into the engineer's booth, which was a little strange.

Usually, when police ride the subways, they just sit with all of the other passengers. But not these two, because they were looking for Maxime Gelman. This day, these two cops got on right after me and they went in. I was sitting right by the door to the motorman. So they got on, they went right in there, which was weird, but who knows? You know, who knows? It could be anything. You know, I didn't think twice about it at that point.

Now, usually once the doors close, the train will slowly inch forward and then start to pick up speed. But that didn't happen with Joe's train. Well, here we were going slow and we were staying slow and we were crawling. So then I'm like, all right, this is weird. You know, and again, it didn't dawn on me that they were looking for someone. Then out of nowhere, as the train is slowly inching forward, Joe sees Maxime Gelman. He's dirty and disheveled.

And he watches as he walks up to the engineer's booth and starts banging on the door. Going slow and the cops got in there and before even at time to form another thought, this piece of shit dirtbag is banging on the door telling him to let him in. So you kind of have all this stuff going on and you're like, okay, wait, this isn't a normal Saturday. And Joe couldn't have been more right.

Now, Maxim has no idea that there were police officers inside of the engineer's booth. He thought it was just the conductor, and his plan was to gain entry and hijack the subway so he could flee the police. So he starts banging on the door, yelling out, "This is official business! Let me in! This is official business!" From here, the officers ask who he was.

and Maxime yells out that he's the police, to which they say, you're not the police. Now, keep in mind, every officer in New York knows who this man is. I mean, he's murdered four people, hijacked several cars, and stabbed multiple others. He was the most wanted man in New York,

And part of being a police officer there at the time was to know his face and to be on the lookout for him. Even further, these cops knew that Gellman was somewhere in the subway station. And through that engineer's booth is a window. So they can see his face. And they know exactly who he is. But instead of opening it and trying to apprehend him, they just stay in the engineer's booth.

Now Joe is watching this entire interaction and he has no idea what's going on. Keep in mind, he came from Philly and the word of a spree killer in New York hadn't yet hit the news there. When the cops said, "You're not the police," he just turned around and walked away. Like, he didn't create a stir yet. And I was like, that's when I'm like, like, what's going on? But other people on the train were well aware of who this man was.

Like we mentioned, everyone in New York had seen Maxime's face all over the news, and a man standing nearby had a very worried look on his face as Maxime was banging on the door. But then it really got, like, exciting, and not fun exciting, of course, when the guy standing next to me bolted to the door like he was going to shit himself.

tapping on the window and waving for the cops to come out and looking over his shoulder because now I'm like, now I'm literally sitting there. I'm the only guy in the train that doesn't know anything about Maxim Gelman because they're all from New York. I came from Philly. It wasn't in the paper yet. It wasn't on a news cycle yet because it was super early in the morning. I'm the only guy in the train that doesn't know who this guy is. This guy obviously does and he's scared to death trying to get the cops to come out.

Now at this point, Gelman is back at the door.

and he's standing just feet away from Joe, who is sitting down, still confused on what's going on. Gelman looks at the door, then back at Joe, and he suddenly pulls out the 8-inch knife that he had been using in the spree.

With a wild look in his eye, he points it in Joe's direction and says, You're gonna die! You're gonna die! Gellman would later say that he decided he was going to try and use Joe as his hostage, saying, quote, He was in the first seat right there, so all I had to do was stab him by turning, end quote. The knife that he used on everyone else was actually the one that he used to finish his father, his stepfather off.

Now, Joe has this knife pointed right at him. And before he could even react...

Gelman plunges it towards his face and the blade hits him right below his left eye. Joe would later say that Maxime looked like a robot programmed to kill, saying, "He looked at my eyes and I realized that there was nothing there." But after getting stabbed in the face, Joe went into survival mode. So he pulled the knife and said, "You're gonna die."

Right after he said that, did he go to stab? That was it. There was no time. You're going to die, you're going to die, and that was it. Right into the face. And I didn't have time to get my hands up, or else maybe he would have got me in the arm. I know I reacted, but he was quicker than I was. I've heard so many people, oh, you're brave, you're this, you're this, you're this. Listen, I appreciate all that.

At that point, I had two choices. You know, I could let him kill me or I could try to fight back and maybe he'll kill me, but maybe he won't. So it was just instinct at the time. Now, Joe has no weapons on him, so his first thought is to tackle Maxim to the ground. And I went in and I tried to take him down by the legs and I went in too high and it ended up being more like a football tackle. So Joe uses all of his might to tackle Maxim to the ground.

But while he's doing so, his head is exposed. And Maxim takes the opportunity to stab him multiple times in the head, slicing all the way down to his skull. And while I'm taking him down, that's when he's stabbing me in the head, the stuff you've seen, you know, the slashes and the stabs in the head. That's when he did that. But I was still able to take him down because I'm a lot bigger than he was. So at this point, Joe is on top of Gellman fighting for his life.

But he still has the knife in his hands and he's swinging it around trying to kill him. Gellman would actually stab Joe two more times in the struggle. And the two cops are still hiding in the engineer's booth while all of this is happening. So he has no help in taking this madman down. Gellman tries to go for a third stab but this time Joe is able to grab his arm and slam it down.

Which sends the knife sliding across the subway floor. But he's so jacked up on all these drugs, I take him down, he's still got the knife in his hand. He didn't let go of the knife. So now I'm on top of him and he's still flailing up at me at that knife. And he got me two more times, he got me once in the thumb, he got me once in the tricep. Finally, the third time he tried to stab me, I grabbed his arm, I slammed it down, the knife came out. And that's that!

is when Terrence Howell came out and tapped me on the shoulder and said, you can get up now, we got him.

Terrence Howell was one of the two police officers that were on that train when this entire attack happened. The other was an officer named Tamara Taylor. And like we mentioned earlier, they saw that Maxim was on that train, and instead of coming out to apprehend him, they stayed in the engineer's booth, all while Joe was getting stabbed. And we'll get into that more in a bit. But Joe Lozito took Gelman down, knocked the knife out of his hands, and then the officers placed Gelman under arrest.

And it's so crazy that like you alone had to take down this madman who had murdered four people, attacked several others and you help there. And in the process you were, how many times were you stabbed? Was it seven or? Okay. Yeah. He got me, he got me once on the knuckle of my right hand. He got me three times in the head, once under the eye, once on the bottom of my left thumb and once on my left tricep. When I got up,

When I got up and I'm sitting on the subway seat, I'm bleeding. I think at the point while we're fighting, I'd have no idea just how badly I'm cut. It happens so quick. It actually tells me longer to tell the story than the actual fight. I had no idea until I got up and I sat on the seat.

And then I kind of like slouch, slouch. What's the word? I'm like a hunch. Yeah. I slouching and the blood's just coming down on both sides. And the best example I can give people and I've done it a million times. If you want to know how the blood was pouring out of the back of my head, next time you take a shower, put your, put your head to the shower head and let the shower, let the water hit you in the back of the neck and you'll see the water come down both sides. And that's where the blood was coming.

So from here, they are still in the subway and they actually have to continue riding it for about 20 minutes until they get to the next station. But once they arrive, the NYPD take Maxime Gelman out of the subway station and into a police car.

Finally, after 28 hours, his killing spree had come to an end. Gelman would later be asked whether or not he felt bad about his actions when he was caught, and he replied, "I was upset I was caught and in jail, but that's about it. I wouldn't have done it differently. What's done is done. I was shocked that they allowed me to go on and kill all these people.

Now, Joe was badly injured after getting stabbed seven times. And once his adrenaline wore off, the pain of his injury started to settle in.

While I was waiting for the paramedics to come, it was probably 20, 25 minutes. Finally, we pulled into the next station and the paramedics were waiting there. So they took Gelman off and then the paramedics came on. And as they helped me up from the subway seat to put me on the stretcher, I passed out. That was the adrenaline dump. But I passed out. It's kind of like when you're watching TV and you're starting the knot off, but you can still hear everything.

That's what it was. So I was out maybe for a couple of seconds, but when I woke up, the pain was off the charts. It was, I hope I never feel that much pain again. Basically, what I've likened it to is someone dousing my head in gasoline and lighting it on fire. It was unreal. The pain was, I can't describe it.

Because honestly, I don't know how I could describe it to somebody. I've never obviously given birth. I've never passed a stone. But this was, I mean, unbelievable pain. So yeah, I'm not going to sit here and go, hey, it didn't hurt. Once the adrenaline...

It was the three in the head were the ones that were the worst. So the cops arrest Gelman and you're taken to the hospital. We found a gnarly picture of you from the name.

Just blood everywhere. Unbelievable. Is that the one where they're putting me into the ambulance? Yes. That's what I use for the cover of my book, so it's okay. That's so cool. Yeah, I use that for the cover. So is your book out yet? Yeah, it's been out for a few years. I self-published, and in terms of sales, it may have been a mistake, but the reality is it was the most therapeutic thing I could have done. I unloaded a lot of shit that I had to get off my chest.

And if people really want to know everything that happened, including the bullshit that New York State used against me in court to get the case dismissed, there's some pretty wild cases in there that have absolutely nothing to do with what happened to me. So it is available on Amazon. Yeah, what is it called? We'll give you a shout out. It's called the New York subway hero, my battle with evil and the spree killer. Wow.

So it's a pretty long title. Maybe people just search my name, it'll pop up. So from here, Joe was taken to the hospital while Gelman was taken off to jail. And luckily, he would survive his injuries, unlike the other four that Gelman had murdered. And in part of this interview, I asked Joe how his family found out about everything that happened. Here was his response.

Alright, so here's where I'm going to cry. I can tell any part of the story without getting upset. I could get stabbed seven times. It doesn't get me upset. Whatever I talk about my family, I do. So, just bear with me. So, my wife and my kids are in Philadelphia. So, I'm in the room with the detective. They had come in to look at my head. They said, okay, we're going to numb your head up and we're going to stitch up and

So I said, okay. So then the detective said to me, I said to him, I said, listen, I got to call my wife. I said, they have no idea. So he goes, well, I'll call my wife. He goes, I'll call your wife. I go, she's not going to pick up the phone. We don't pick up numbers that we don't know. Plus at the time she was working at a fitness center doing their books. So she's working with money. She's not going to pick up the phone for anybody while she's in charge of someone else's money. So he tries, of course she doesn't pick up.

So I said, give me my phone, I'll call. So I call. I basically tell her that there was an incident on the train and I was stabbed and I'm in the hospital, but I'm okay. And I'm like a lot of guys, I got a weird sense of humor. I don't know if I'd ever crossed that line. But basically she, long and short of it, she's like, Joe, I'm busy, I'm working, I got this money. And...

Yeah, I said, all right, all right. So I took a deep breath and I said, I said, and listen, there was an incident on the train. I was stabbed a bunch of times, but I am okay. And then there was a pause and I just, she started screaming. Then one of her coworkers grabbed his phone and I just basically said, tell her to pack a bag for her and the boys. Cause they're, they're going to be up in New York for a few days. So I

That's what she did. So that's how she found out. And then, you know, she basically had to go home, pack a bag for, she doesn't even know how many days, pack a bag for her, for my son, and then drive up to New York. We don't drive in New York City. Even when we were both born here, we don't drive there. So now she's got to drive up to New York City and find the hospital with a 10-year-old and a 7-year-old.

I'm so proud of my sons because my wife was obviously she didn't know what she was driving into and my sons really calmed her down like they kind of basically said to her hey you spoke to him you know he's you know he said he's doing okay so you know let's just you know see what happens which is sort of like for a 10 and a 7 year old it's almost unheard of you know I'll never forget when they opened the curtain and I saw them come in and I just got a big smile on my face

It's the only part of the story I get emotional with. I can't imagine having your life flash before your eyes and then seeing them, and I bet it was just such a relief. It was like every Christmas you've ever had, and then one.

We're so glad that you're still here and that you were able to fight him off. I mean, again, I can't imagine what that would even be like. And the fact... I know you say, like, oh, people call me brave. But it truly is the fact that you were able to, you know, be there and fight for your life and to be around for your family and kids. That's amazing. Well, that's the whole thing. That's what gave me the strength that day because...

I'm one of those people, I kiss my kids and my wife every day when I leave. And that just didn't start after this. But I didn't want to go out that way. I still could have died, don't get me wrong. But I didn't want the subway to be my coffin. And the whole reason why I get out of bed in the morning is for my family. So if my life's in danger, then of course it's the same reason, it's just a little more intense. But

You know, listen, people have said so many nice things about me and I appreciate it all, but I'd like to think I did what anyone else would. When did you find out the severity of Gelman's crimes? Well, this goes back to when I first got in the hospital. They wheeled me in. The paramedics were unbelievable. Okay. And here's another thing along the lines of me switching the platform.

There's a restaurant here on the island called Vincent's. It's my wife and I's favorite place. And we go there for birthdays and anniversaries and everything. And I don't know, a couple of years ago, we were sitting there and there's a little kid sitting next to me and he's looking at my head because I got the scars and everything. Right. And his parents are like, don't don't. You know, I said, no, it's OK. It's OK. And it turned out we were sitting next to one of the paramedics.

He recognized me. And he was one of the paramedics that day. So we kept in touch a little bit. We keep in touch on social media a little bit. But yeah, so that's weird how everything kind of works out. So getting back to your question, they were great.

Thankfully, it was a Saturday morning, so they got me there right away. They wheeled me in. They hooked me up to morphine, thank God. And they wheeled me into this room, and it seemed like there were 100 people in there, and they're just cutting my clothes off, looking for other wounds and everything. And it's just this chaotic scene. And it's kind of like, this is the part of the movie where they would cut to the close-up of the cop that comes to the head of my bed with the mugshot, literal mugshot. And he said, is this the guy that did this to you?

So up until this moment, Joe figured that him getting stabbed was a random act of violence.

He had no idea the damage his attacker had done over the last 28 hours. Joe also had no idea about the story the media was running with about how Maxim Gelman was apprehended. The way this even happened was, the day that everything went down, I was taken to the hospital. I didn't speak to anyone in the media. So they had 24 hours to put their version of the story out there.

to the point where the next day when I had a reporter come to my room, she was just coming to my room to get, like, the story. Like, she wasn't coming to the room to get what she got. And I was fine. She's like, so tell me what happened. So I start telling her what happened, and she just looks at me, and she goes, wait, you're the one who stopped him? And I said, yeah. She goes, that's not what the police are saying. And I go...

I don't know what they're saying. I've been in the hospital, but this is what happened. And her eyes just got wide. Like, because she's the first reporter that spoke to me.

And that was it. And then that's what set the chain off. The story that the media was running with was that Officer Terrence Howell was the one that took Gelman down. In the New York Daily News, it states, quote, Maxime Gelman was six feet of blind, unreasoning rage, and he was reaching for the big knife in his waistband.

He had just slashed his latest victim moments before, and there was bright, fresh blood on the blade. Howell was six feet five of pure, brave righteousness. He pounced on Gelman and brought him down, a tackle where the stakes are your life. The knife that had killed three people and stabbed three others clattered to the floor. Police officer Tamara Taylor grabbed it.

Gelman no doubt would have loved to have made his next victim one of the cops, but he would not be hurting anyone else." Now, when Joe heard this version of the story, he was shocked and rightfully upset. For one, he was the one that tackled Gelman to the ground, which is exactly how he got all of the stabs to his head.

And secondly, he was the one who knocked the knife from his hand. And it wasn't until afterwards when Terrence stepped in to intervene. So it happened on a Saturday. So if you read the papers on Sunday, all the articles were about the heroic cops. There was an article in the Daily News actually praising Terrence Howell for doing all this without drawing his weapon.

and how, you know, he's a hero and all this other stuff that he was able to do all this without even drawing his gun. Right. Cause I didn't see any of this. So then the reporter comes in from the daily news the next day. And when she says, well, that's not what the cops are saying. I said, well, I don't know what they're saying, but this is, this is what happened. And she starts, she gives my wife and I the newspapers and she goes, look, and it's just all about how these two cops are heroes. And I'm just like,

And Joe is the first person to say that it's not like he wants the credit. He just wants the truth to be told.

Because at the end of the day, those cops stood behind that locked door knowing that the spree killer was on the subway with innocent people. And because of that, Joe had to take him down all by himself. The biggest thing for me is I'm not doing this. I'm not speaking to you guys and I haven't done the interviews and I wrote my book and I haven't done any of this stuff.

because I want credit. I just want the truth out there. The reality is it's not about me. I mean, four people died and it's not about me, but...

It's also not about the lies that the police were telling people. And it's very important for me to get... I'm not anti-cop. Like I just said, my sister is a cop. Thank God she's retired now. I have cops in my family on my wife's side. I have good friends that are retired cops. I have all the respect in the world for people who go to work every day not knowing if they're coming home or not. So it's not a question of me being anti-cop at all. But...

If a cop does something heroic, they should be held a hero. But if, on the other hand, if they do the opposite, then they should be held to the fire.

And something that's really frustrating about this entire story is that Terrence Howell would later get an award for bravery for what happened that day, when in reality, according to Joe, he hid behind a locked door which left Joe to fend for himself. These cops should have immediately come out of the conductor's booth as soon as they saw Gelman, especially since they were armed, and they knew that he had just murdered four people and stabbed multiple others. Leaving a killer on a train with innocent people is not a brave act of courage.

The thing I say is, if the cop opens the door with his gun drawn, this cop was bigger than me. His wingspan is longer than mine. He could have probably put the gun within a couple of inches of his head. Now, and I've heard people say, well, you know, if he misses, there's no chance. It was so close, he couldn't have missed. But he doesn't. He doesn't do anything. He leaves innocent people on a train with a spree killer.

And then later on gets an award for bravery. But we can talk about that later. But yeah, that's what... But if he just comes out with his gun drawn, you guys aren't speaking to me. Nobody knows who I am if he comes out with his gun drawn. Nobody. If he comes out with his gun drawn, I'm interviewed by the cops like everyone else in the train was. And then I'm on my way and you'll never know who I am. Right. And it's crazy because like...

I totally understand that that's a scary situation. Like, you don't want to go into a train with a killer, but that's the job you signed up for, and you're better equipped than these random people that aren't armed on the trains. My sister was a cop. She spent many months in the academy. I have friends who are cops. They spend many months in the academy. That's part of the training. Now, listen, I'm not taking the human aspect out of it. It's got to be nerve-wracking. I'm sure...

Most cops just want to go to work and come home and not have an incident like this. So I totally get it. I understand that. But the fact is, you're there for a reason. You're trained for a reason. You have a gun. You have a nightstick. You have mace. And the most important thing at that point, you have the element of surprise because he has no idea that you're in there. Right. And these two did absolutely nothing. Like I said, I do think, for the most part,

Most cops want to do the right thing. Right. I just happened to run into two that were gutless cowards. It kind of... Obviously, these situations are very, very different. But it kind of like...

reminds me in a sense of like the Uvalde shooting in Texas where the cops were literally just waiting outside of the door while children were getting murdered in their class. And that's when my story becomes prevalent again. That blew up my social media because people that knew me

And the reason we made that comparison is because, like in Joe's case, the cops stood behind a door, afraid to go inside because of the threat. Even though there were innocent and unarmed people being attacked, which is something I've never really considered before. Cops are supposed to go towards the threat, not cower in fear from it.

And it brings awareness to something that not a lot of people really think about, which is really important. And why would you? Yeah. Why would you think about it? My mom tells the story. When I was a kid, the first time I ever saw a police officer, I was in awe. Like, I was this little boy looking up. I saw him in the uniform. He had the shiny badge on. And I just looked up, and I was in awe. Like, he was, like, the man. Yeah.

And like Joe, we have all of the respect in the world for law enforcement. And being a cop is a job that is incredibly difficult, a job that I definitely could never do. So we really, really want to emphasize that. But like Joe said, if a cop doesn't do their job correctly and it results in people getting hurt or killed,

then they definitely shouldn't be winning awards for bravery.

And I just can't imagine how frustrating it must be for Joe seeing these cops getting praised for their actions that day when in reality he was almost killed because they didn't do what they were supposed to do. Now, later on, after Joe healed from his injuries, he got to learn more about exactly what happened that day on the subway.

The actual story was something I found out after I testified before the grand jury. Because the day that I testified before the grand jury, both cops did. I went first and then Terrence Howell went second. I testified before the grand jury. I told them my story and I left. I was out of work a few more weeks and I go back to work and one of the grand jurors actually finds me and comes and talks to me.

And I didn't, you know, I'm always suspicious. And I said, well, if you're on the grand jury, how do I know? And he basically told me about the photos that they showed the grand jurors, which have never been made public. And they were pretty gruesome. But he described them, so I knew he was legit. And basically, Terrence Howell testified. So it's on record that when we started fighting, he thought that Maxim Gelman had a gun. So he did open the door to come out, but then he closed the door to stay inside.

So he admits to opening the door to come out, but he thought the guy had a gun. So he went back inside a locked door for his own safety and left all the passengers on the train with this spree killer who he knows has stabbed people to death. But now he thinks he has a gun. So the two people with guns are behind a locked door for their safety. And he admitted to that. And closing it too. Yeah. Hey, I'm going to come out. Oh, he has a gun. I'll wait here.

In this next part, we asked about how Joe found out about Terrence Howell's award. Every now and then I would Google Terrence Howell and Tamara Taylor. Marcelo Razo, who's another cop that wasn't on the train that day, they must have owed him one because they said he jumped in too, he was off duty. He was never on the train, but they gave him credit for it. I always say the next time I'm on a train with Marcelo Razo will be the first time I'm on a train with Marcelo Razo. When I saw the article, I'm like, this guy wasn't on the train. Right.

But, you know, no, I said they must have owed him one.

And one day, one day I, I Google it. I Google his name and a Facebook page comes up and it's a cop Facebook page. It's called finest of the finest and it's awards given out to police. And Terrence Howell was given an award for bravery. It's to me, it's embarrassing because believe it or not, and I'm sure you will believe this. I have the support of so many cops because the one thing they always said to me was, if you're telling the truth, it makes us look terrible.

So I hope the truth comes out. And the thing that I said in defense of the cops is every cop that got an award that day, it's tainted.

Maybe they did something heroic, but he got the same award. So what does it really mean then? And I'm sure most of the cops earned their reward that day, but he got the same reward. This might be a somewhat obvious sounding question, but why do you think that they wanted to go with that story versus your story of what actually happened? Why do you think they chose to tell that?

Well, I think because they were so quick to go to the media with their story and for them to now backtrack, it makes them look stupid. But it also opens them up to a lawsuit by basically admitting that he didn't do what they said he did and admitting that what I did is the right story. So it would open them up to this lawsuit that they would be on the hook for probably millions of dollars. So instead of maybe...

not coming clean necessarily, but even wanting to meet with me and say, hey, listen, this is the deal. We're never going to admit what happened, but we, you know, can we work something out? They just doubled down. And then that was like seeing red for me. And that's when I pushed forward with everything. That's why I think so. And I think more for the financial aspect of it than the saving face. But I think both of those would be valid excuses.

Now, unfortunately, a lot of media out there still runs with this story that the cops were the heroes. In fact, I actually watched an A&E episode on this case years ago. And this entire time, I was under the assumption that the cops were the ones to take Maxime Gelman down. I came across the lawsuit that Joe filed against New York City.

And when I took a look and do everything, I just knew we had to reach out to him and see if he would come on the show and share the truth about what really happened. All of these big publications like A&E and the New York Daily News are making these cops out to be heroes. And after a little digging, it's clear that that just wasn't the case.

After Joe testified for the grand jury and he found out that Terrence Howell admitted to hiding from Gelman when he thought he had a gun, Joe knew that he had to try and get his day in court. When I announced the lawsuit, my biggest fear was that my sister was going to get blowed up, okay, because she's still on the job. Now, if you know my sister, you would say I wouldn't worry about her because she can handle herself. You know, I, I, uh,

I would feel bad for anyone that gave her any shit, to be honest with you. But still, you know, she's got to work every day. And there's always those group of cops that are going to side with the cops no matter what. And that's just part of the gig. But for the most part, she got the same response I did. Hey, if he's telling the truth, you know, I hope he gets whatever he wants because it makes us all look bad. And her precinct at the time actually took up a collection for us because I was out of work.

Now, they didn't know that I was still getting paid. And it was nothing like, hey, he could retire now. But even if it was a dollar, it's like, hey, that was really nice. You didn't have to do that. And it was really heartwarming. So my relationship with the police, with the actual officers, has never been anything but fantastic. And not that I had a relationship beforehand. But obviously, in the aftermath, they know who I am. They know what's going on. And they were great to me.

So Joe meets with his lawyer and he pretty much tells him that there's a huge possibility that the case will be dismissed because the NYPD is protected. But they meet with the insurance adjuster of New York City anyways. The meeting's about 30 minutes long and immediately after the meeting, the adjuster speaks with Joe's attorney. My lawyer, again, I don't have a lawyer, but he says, why don't you guys go meet me out front? Okay. So he comes out front and he's got this big grin on his face. And I go, what's up?

And he goes, he just said, you're the city's worst nightmare. And I go, why? And he goes, well, he goes, you answered every question very calmly. You remember every single thing. You speak well.

He goes, you're a nightmare. He goes, you don't have a record. And he goes, it's not like you're up there and all this other stuff. So I'm like, oh, all right. So now I'm thinking this is great, right? And it was shortly after that, we never even got to the discovery phase where they put in their motion to dismiss. It was shortly after that interview. The judge who ended up dismissing Joe's case was Judge Margaret Chan.

And she said, quote, the dismissal of this lawsuit does not lessen Mr. Lizito's bravery or the pain of his injuries. Mr. Lizito heroically maneuvered the knife away from Gelman and subdued him on the subway floor, end quote.

She went on to admit that Joe's story was quote, highly credible, but they were going to dismiss the case because the police had quote, no special duty to protect him. What the judge basically does was all but admit that I'm telling the truth.

And I don't know if that was her way of cushioning the blow. But she all but admits I was telling the truth, but says we can't proceed with the case because it's... I forget what the phrase was. But it's like the statutes are there. And I'm reading this going, but you're the judge. And all these precedents were made because of other judges. So you could technically say...

Something isn't right here. So we're going to proceed with this. The way that it was explained to me is... The way that... The part they used in the dismissal was that there was no special relationship between Terrence Howell and myself. So I said, well, what... How do I get a special relationship with a cop that I don't even know? If I knew that... If I knew Gelman before that day, and I knocked on that door and said, hey...

That's Maxim Gelman, the guy you're here to arrest. And he says, okay, we have a special relationship. It's that simple. But we didn't have a special relationship. Also, what I was told, and this is something that I say because I want it to resonate with the women. If a woman is being raped and a cop sees it, he can basically wait for the guy to finish raping. And when he stands up, arrest him. He does not have to jump in. Now,

Do I think most cops would intervene? 100%. 100% would intervene. But if you get a cop like Terrence Howell, he can literally wait for the rapist to finish, and when he gets up, he can throw him in handcuffs. And the woman cannot sue him because they did not have a special relationship. They call it a special relationship or a special duty. Here's another thing that I'll say to sort of let the... When this all happened,

I said to my sister, did they teach you this in the academy? And she says no. So it's not even like they tell the cops, look, we need you to do this. But if you don't, we have these safety nets. Most of them aren't even aware of it. Most of the cops that I come in contact with have no idea that this is even in the books to protect them.

Do you guys watch MMA at all?

I don't. All right. Well, there was a guy, Anderson Silva, who's one of the greatest of all time. And then there was a guy, Chael Sonnen, who in his own right was excellent. Chael was a master on the microphone and that was his best asset. And he was a great fighter. And he was trying to go with Anderson into a fight. And I stole one of his lines because I thought it was great. And he said...

He said, I poked Anderson in the chest so many times and he's fought everybody except Chael Sonnen. And I was like, I've poked New York City and New York PD in the chest as many times as I can and they go to court with anybody except me because I'm the one pushing to go to court because I know I have the truth on my side. So you're right. It's a little daunting when you want to go up against New York City and the NYPD.

But you know what? I knew I was right. And I know I'm right. And I know I have the truth on my side. It's what Judge Judy says. When you're telling the truth, you don't need a good memory. They could call me right now and say, we're going to go to court now. And I'll say, okay, let me just get my shoes on. Because all I wanted was my day in court. See, I've had people say, well, it's about the money, this and that. It's not about the money. Now, don't get me wrong. Every night. If a city came to me at some point and said, listen, let's talk dollars.

And they said, we'll give you $5 million to go away. Well, then that's a conversation I have to have with my family because that's life-changing. I got two kids in college right now at the time they were going to go to college. And I'm not going to lie. I mean, I'm not going to go, hey, no way, because it's not just about me. It's about my family. I can help a lot of people out with that money. Right. But if we go to court and I have my say and I lose, I'm okay with that because the process is done.

And I say this forever, and I'm a pretty humble person. I'm pretty laid back. I think you might get that from this. I'm a laid back person. I say this with no reservations. If we had gone to court that day, and people that have heard me do interviews have heard me say this a million times, I would have absolutely crucified those cops in New York City. It would have been biblical crucifixion.

Okay, what I would have done to them on the stand, and I never got that opportunity. And that's the one thing that I, when I say I'll never get over it, it's not that I dwell on it, but it's the one part of the case that I will never get over. Because if you're so confident in what your officer did, then let's go to court. You're telling me they're heroes, so make me look like the idiot.

And that's a huge reason why I wanted to bring Joe on the show in the first place. You know, when most people hear this story, including myself, you think that the cops were the ones to bring Gelman down.

And after just a small bit of research, I learned that Joe was actually the hero that day and that the cops did not do what they were supposed to. And at the beginning of our interview, Joe talked about how he watched the A&E episode on the case and how infuriating it was to see that they got the story all wrong and he's just one guy.

He does what he can to spread the truth, but it's hard going up against the big dogs who have millions of people listening to an entirely different story. I'm just really happy that we get to help share that part of the story because again, like I said, I have heard the story for years. But like that's what we were saying, like it really did make it seem like the cops were the hero of the whole situation. And like, I'm really glad that we get to kind of

share the truth about what happened. I am really, I'm really grateful to you guys for reaching out to me because it means a lot to me and it actually sort of, um, it, it justifies the work that I put in for it. You know, obviously in the years, you know, recently, well, not your recent to the incident, I would get requests all the time to do interviews and,

So, so it means a lot to me when, when people like yourself reach out, because to me, it just says, Hey, you know what? Like you said, you stumbled, you look, you watch the thing, you look for my Twitter and you saw the stuff that I post. So to me, it's like, okay, it's working. And it just makes me never want to stop doing it because now we're, we're so many years later, we're 12 years later and we're still talking about it. And I, and I thank you for, for reaching out to me.

Now, following Maxim Gelman's arrest, many people wanted to know why. Why would he go on a rampage, destroying everything in his wake? He

He would eventually be evaluated, where he told them that it all started when he noticed the feds were following him. But as it turns out, there were never any feds investigating Maxim prior to the spree. All the cars that were following him and his phone calling random numbers, that was all in his head. The PCP that he had been abusing kept him in a constant state of paranoia, and the Brooklyn District Attorney's Office made an official statement after his remarks and said that at no time were any agents ever following Maxim.

Now clearly, Maxim would have to have a full mental evaluation before his trial to see if he qualified for an insanity plea. But luckily, they found no mental defect and during the time of the murders, Maxim could distinguish right from wrong. Here are Joe's thoughts on that. The one good thing he did was he didn't plead insanity.

The way it was described to me by my lawyer, Ed, was the doctor that's going to examine him has a great reputation. So if the doctor says he's insane, he's insane. If the doctor says he's not insane, then he can't plead it. So it's not that he did me a favor by not pleading insanity, but it's just that once he found out he couldn't plead insanity, then he just pled guilty.

And clearly, him pleading guilty was a huge relief for Joe and all the other victims and their families. The last thing anyone wants to do after such a traumatic event is sit through a trial and relive everything. And luckily they wouldn't have to do that. But they would go to a sentencing trial. And Maxim's behavior there was nothing less than deplorable. At the trial in Brooklyn, the justice would tell Maxim, Sir, we have a saying, crazy like a fox. I believe you put on a pretty good act. You, sir, are a pathologically violent predator. You're a sociopath.

Anna and Yelena's loved ones were there as well, and they had victim impact statements for the man who destroyed their lives. Anna's brother, Andrei Lev, said that Gelman ruined multiple lives that day, not just the people that he killed, and that the maximum sentence wouldn't even be enough. Yelena's boyfriend, Gerard, told Gelman that he would rot in jail for 200 years, you can burn in hell. To which Gelman yelled out, You fell in love with a heroin addict!

Gelman's final words to the court were, The judge then handed him the maximum sentence, 200 years, followed by,

and as they took him away, Gelman began maniacally laughing and yelling out profanities. "So this guy truly is scum of the earth. Just hearing all this makes me sick to my stomach. I just can't imagine how infuriating that was to have to hear all that. You know, I feel like a lot of people going into a sentencing trial expect a bit of closure."

Like the monsters finally getting handed a sentence. But that clearly wasn't the case here. Now, this sentencing trial was only for the four murders and the assaults in Brooklyn. For Joe's assault, there was another sentencing trial in New York City, since that's where his assault took place. What happened was they sentenced him for the murder, for everything besides me, because everything besides me happened in Brooklyn. So it was a separate sentencing. And he went and he was an asshole to the families and he was chirping them and everything like that and it was disgusting.

And I read the articles and I said, okay, you know what? That's not going to happen with me. I mean, I heard that he was like laughing and so disrespectful. That's got to be...

So infuriating for not only you, but the people who lost family members. You know, when I read the article about his sentencing in Brooklyn, it really pissed me off because there were people there. And I know that it was Yelena. Her boyfriend was there. You know, hey, listen, the one person I never hear about is Yelena's father. He lost a wife and a daughter that day. You know, so it's like, I don't know who was there. But the fact that he was being disrespectful really pissed me off.

Next, it came time for Gelman's sentencing for the assault on Joe. And I knew when he was sentenced in the city, it was just me. So I wasn't going to let him get the last word. We were going to have, we had words. Him and I had words. And the funny part about that day is it was just a regular court scene. Like I'm thinking it's going to be like this thing where it's just us.

But I walk in and I'm sitting there and there's people like fighting, like traffic tickets, like regular stuff. And you walk in and there's like one called officer by the judge. And it's just like guys going up there, women going up there, fighting tickets, whatever. I'm like, this is so weird, right? It wasn't what I expected. But then all of a sudden everything kind of stops. And from the back of the court, there's like four or five officers come in and I'm like, okay, it's showtime. This has got to be it.

And there's like, uh, two of them stand by where his table was. And the biggest dude stands around by where I am. And then they lead him into the courtroom and there's like three or four other guards. And as soon as he came in the door, I didn't even realize that I stood up and the cops like sit down. And I'm like, I literally had no idea that I had stood up and I'm like, Oh, I said, I'm sorry. I had no idea. So then, um,

You know, they basically, you know, said what he was, uh, what he was guilty of and, and, uh, it was my turn to make a, an impact statement. So they, they call it a victim's impact statement, but I refuse to call myself a victim. So that's why I just call it an impact statement. And, um, you know, I kind of took shots at him and then he said, I didn't take him down.

We were able to find some of the statements Joe made towards Gelman, and he started off with, When you attacked me, you went down real easy. You have the soul of a coward. To which Gelman yelled out, You didn't take me down, you jerk! Then Joe said, What you have, ladies and gentlemen, is the funniest Russian since Yakov Smirnoff.

To which Gelman responds, fucking moron, jerk off. Joe then says, just think about the lives that you've changed. They'll never get to walk the face of the earth because you're a spoiled little boy who no one listened to as a kid. And instead of taking your ball and going home, you threw a tantrum. I hope you rot in your cell. You have hell to look forward to, so enjoy it. And Joe would tell us that he started to feel all of his anger and emotion come up while he was saying this statement. As we were talking, I realized that I want to kill him.

And I can't, there was no chance I'd ever get to him anyway. We were going back and forth and I was actually enjoying myself. You know, I mean, listen, here's a guy that I always feel like he got one up on me because I didn't really get a chance to get any shots in on him. And it would have been nice. And I wish I could still do it. Um, to be honest with you, I wish we had the death penalty. I'd love to, if the family members of the people he murdered didn't want to, I'd love to, I'd love to flip the switch.

Knowing there was no outlet for his anger, Joe decided to cut his impact statement short.

I kind of cut short what I said.

And then I sat down and then he that's when he yelled out, Kim Kardashian, will you marry me? I'll make it last more than 72 days, something like that. The fucking loser. So that's what it was. That's when he said that. That was at my that was at the sentencing that he did for me. But what can you say about that? It was clear to everyone that Maxime Gelman was the worst kind of monster. Not only did he ruin people's lives, but he felt absolutely no remorse for what he did.

But even so, Joe said that it felt good to get some of those words off of his chest.

I'm not going to lie. It did feel good. And again, I'm not trying to come off as someone that, hey, I would love to kick his ass. I would love another shot at him. It's just human nature to me. Listen, if I ever got the opportunity, who knows? Maybe he kicks my ass again. I don't know. But I'd like the opportunity with everything being equal. But like I said, it was fun. And

And then it got to the point where I could feel my adrenaline was going crazy and I had no outlet. So I decided to cut it short. As far as the thing with him, there's closure because people always ask me about PTSD and all this other stuff. And the way I tell them is I never knew who he was. Like if that was a friend of mine or a family member or my wife that did that to me, well, now I'm fucked in the head because now I'm wondering why did they do that to me?

Right. This guy, he did this to me because of just where I was sitting. He was going to do that to anyone that was sitting there. So I don't really need to rationalize it in my head because I know why he did it. It wasn't me. It was just, I was the body sitting in the chair. He wanted to take over the train and I was the last thing because he didn't know the cops were in there again. I was the last thing between him and the motorman.

So if it was me or you guys or anyone sitting in that seat, that's who he was going to attack. So I don't need to have any sort of resolution in my head as to why he did it to me. If it was someone that I had a relationship with, then that's a completely different story. So as far as closure with the incident with him and I, that happened a long time ago. You know, like I said, the worst thing for me right now is the one thing that sticks in my craw is that I never got my day in court.

But Joe said that even though he never got his day in court, Terrence Howell has been confronted about his negligence that day, one time being from Joe's friend Kenny. I have very good friends who are thankfully now retired. I actually have a friend who confronted him, confronted Terrence Howell. Kenny, if you're listening to this, I'm going to tell the story. My friend Kenny, he's not very...

My friend Kenny is as tall as he is wide. And he's pretty jacked. Okay. I wouldn't want to be on his bad side. Let's put it that way. And he's got an engine that doesn't quit. So if anyone ever ends up in a fight with my friend Kenny, they better be in it for the long haul. And Kenny basically... And Terrence Howell, he's got to be at least 6'3", 6'4". And I don't know what Kenny is, but he's not 6'.

Terrence Howell was also confronted in court one day on an entirely separate case.

friend of mine introduced me to this lawyer and um the lawyer got in touch with me one day and he was telling me a story he was actually trying a case and Terrence Howell was a was a cop that was involved he was almost there like a character witness whenever so now this lawyer obviously knows my story so he says Terrence Howell's on the stand and he uh says you're Terrence Howell right he goes yes he goes you're the guy who apprehended Maxim Gelman right he goes yes

This isn't true that you didn't actually apprehend Maxim Gelman, that it was a passenger on the train that did it. And he said all of a sudden he got sat up in the stand and he was like playing the role and stuff like that. And this lawyer just wouldn't stop. And the judge goes, where are you going with this counselor? And he just says, I'm just trying to, you know, trying to prove that he's not reliable. Even though Joe never got his day in court, we are very happy to share his story with you guys.

At the end of the day, he was almost Maxime Gelman's fifth murder victim. But luckily, he was able to fight him off. If anyone else would have been in that subway seat that day, they very well may have lost their life, even though there were two armed officers just feet away. Luckily, that wouldn't be the case. And thankfully, Joe is still here to tell his story. Well, it's almost like...

Yeah.

Well, that's why I appreciate you guys reaching out because you're a hundred percent right. You're, you're my outlet now. You know, I, I can, I have the people that follow me on social media and they, they already know the story and I receive a lot of support, but you know, when, when people like you interview me now, all of a sudden I'm reaching new eyes and new ears and it just opens up a lot of new avenues because you never know who's listening.

And, um, it, it really, you guys really are doing me a big favor by doing this. I know you've thanked me, but I really, like I said, I want to thank you guys for that. We are so honored to have had Joe on the show. He is such a cool guy and we had such a great time doing this. We definitely want to bring more guests on in the future. Colin and I have already purchased his book.

We highly recommend you do as well. It's a great way to support him and his family and it really is just packed with information about this case and other similar cases. So make sure you guys go buy his book.

I want you to give a shout out to your podcast so we can shout you out. We're definitely going to shout out your book. I know a lot of our listeners will love to see that. If every one of your listeners buys a book, I can make a serious chunk in my son's student loans. So if everyone buys one book. No, I'm just kidding. No, no, no. In all seriousness.

If you really want to know the nuts and bolts of this story, okay, this book took me nine months out of a year to write. I did it all by myself. I researched every case by myself. It was really...

It became something I did before work, after work. It really put my heart and soul into it because I felt like the truth needed to be out there. If you really want to know everything about this story from beginning to end and how I got screwed and the effort that I put in, definitely get the book. It's definitely worth it. I think so. As far as my podcasts go, I have two of them. I'm a big hockey fight fan. So if anyone here is into hockey, into the violence, into the fight...

My first podcast is called Coliseum Chronicles, The Penalty Box. My second podcast is called Nordique's Knuckles. It's basically... Coliseum Chronicles is an Islander enforcer-based podcast. Nordique's Knuckles is a Quebec Nordiques enforcer-based podcast. And basically, because I...

nobody wants to listen to me so i do player interviews i have the players the actual guys who did the job and uh and i do player interviews with them and um you know they sort of get a bad rap a lot people think they fight they're stupid they're cavemen they're actually some of the most um you know scholarly people out there and they have the best stories so uh so if you're a hockey fan and this you know your people in philly i know it's not a flyers bronco i know it's not a flyers podcast but uh but i know everyone in philly likes the fights

So if you kind of like hockey fighting, I think you'll enjoy both shows, and it's available on all platforms. So give it a listen, and trust me, I promise it's more them than me. You don't need to hear what you mean. And can I just say something else? Because you guys are based in Philly. My kids were born there, and I love it down there. I just want to say hello to all the good people that were great to me and my family while we were down there. So just...

Now, to wrap this story up, we wanted to briefly mention a few other homicides that Maxim Gelman would later confess to. But again, he's known to be a liar, so take what he says with a grain of salt. In a shocking jailhouse interview before he was sentenced, Maxim told the New York Post that he had originated from a family of gangsters.

He also admitted that before the stabbing spree, he had already killed multiple people. In 2005, when he was 18 years old, he said that he had been driving in Brooklyn when he ran over two people crossing the street. Police were able to match it with the hit-and-run in 2006 involving a mother and daughter in the Sheepshead Bay area, but said it would be impossible to connect Maxim to the crime. The other four murders happened while Maxim was a drug dealer settling scores with rivals in East New York and the Bronx.

Apparently, one man in the Bronx wasn't taking him seriously, and so he killed him. But in a follow-up interview with the New York Post, Maxim contradicted his original story about the hit-and-run. According to his news story, after the hit-and-run, he noticed two men nearby who had witnessed the crime, so he decided to throw the car in reverse and drive back and forth over the men to make sure they were dead. These accounts have never been proven. When asked if he was sorry for what he had done, Maxim responded, "What's the point?"

Within this 28-hour killing spree back in 2011, Maxime Gelman affected so many lives for nothing. And today, all these people can do is try and pick up the pieces and continue on with life. As for the people who lost their lives that day, their families do everything they can to keep their memory alive.

There isn't a lot out there about Alexander, Maxim's first victim, but he was murdered by the person that he had been a stepfather to for nearly a decade. Anna, Jelena's mother, was described as nurturing and generous, with a great sense of humor, and she died in honor, refusing to give up her daughter's location, which is just so beautiful.

Yelena, only 20 years old at the time of her death, will be remembered for her cheery, bubbly, and carefree personality. Yelena's boyfriend Gerard would say at Yelena's funeral, quote, Never would you see her without a smile. I hope she's looking down on us and helping us with everything. I love her with all my heart. End quote. And then finally, Stephen Tannenbaum.

The 62-year-old man who was just crossing the street, minding his own business. Steven was a brilliant coin collector, something he had been doing since he was a child. According to the Civil War Token Society, "Steven Tannenbaum is considered by many to be the most knowledgeable active person in the field of Civil War tokens.

He has been relied on for many decades as a consultant, editor, and contributor to numerous Civil War token works. Steve has handled, purchased, and built some of the greatest modern day collections, although he always considers himself a collector first." End quote.

4 people who were taken far too soon and dozens of others who will be forever affected from the events of that day. One thing we can take comfort in is knowing that this monster will never see the light of day. But it does make you wonder how many others out there have the potential to snap and destroy everything in their wake. After hearing Joe's story,

It makes me always want to be aware of my surroundings because you'll never know when you'll cross paths with evil. Hey, everybody, it's Colin here. And Courtney. Thank you for listening to today's episode of Murder in America. It was such a pleasure having Joe on the show. Once again, shout out to Joe for coming and talking to us. Yeah, and if you want to support him, go buy his book. Colin and I just did, and it's the best way to support him. And the links are going to be in our show notes for that.

I want to shout out our new patrons this week. Stephanie Duffield, Jessica Russell, Katie Schmidt, Lori Grigg, Albin Person, Emily Wooten, Brandon Chaffee, Heidi Naneman, Denise Walsberger, Ali Straps, Neva Morales, Canyon Alice, Vanessa Baker, Jade Gibbons, Ashley N, Carlos Acevedo, Taylor, Kimberly Evans, Amanda Allred, Carrie Flynn, Memmy702, Jamie Schaffner, Alina Sanchez, Dakota Jelenik, Carly Landry, Estefani, Tanya Giesbrecht, Chrissy Rosenblatt, Dion Martin, Kylan V, Harriet the Sparrow,

by Paige Lloyd and Angela Stevens. Oh my God, people. That is so many names. Thank you all so much. And I'm sorry once again if I slaughtered anybody's name. Also, if you want to listen to our full interview with Joe without being edited, we are going to post the whole thing on our Patreon so you can see all of it. We didn't add all of it into the podcast, but it's a really good interview. So head over there to check it out.

And if you want to become a patron and have your name read at the end of an episode, just search for Murder in America on Patreon. We post the ad-free version of every episode on Patreon as soon as it goes live on all streaming platforms, and we post a lot of additional photos and content. There's going to be a lot from this story on there in particular.

We heard this story years ago and we always knew we wanted to tell it. And we're just so lucky that Joe agreed to be on the show with us. And we're definitely going to do it more in the future. We had a lot of fun with this. So thank you guys for joining us. We love you. And we'll see you on the next one.