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Go to patreon.com/sherlockandco for bonus material, early access to episodes, ad-free listening and much more. That's patreon.com/sherlockandco. Uh, John, I did it. Uh, do I just hit stop or...? Hello there. I am currently waiting for a bus to Woolwich Crown Court.
as I'm going to watch a murder trial. Double murder, actually. So, this is me letting you know that we have a gruesome adventure on our hands. It wasn't fun to investigate. It wasn't fun to edit. It probably won't be fun to listen to. I mean, yeah, it might be a little fun, but in spite of, you know...
the bag stuff. And hello, number 244 bus. So, yeah, listener discretion is advised. What? Oh, nothing. I was just... Sherlock and Co. Marina speaking. Hi. Hello. I'm Lillian. Lillian Barker. So, I'm long-time listener, first-time caller. Okay. How can I help, Lillian? Um, so I found...
found something. You found something? Yeah, I was walking my dog in Oxley's Wood, near Eltham, South East London, and I saw something that had like a... What's it? It was like a burial mound. Like a mound of dirt. A burial mound? Yeah. What did you find, Lillian? Oh.
My name is Dr John Watson, once of the British Army Northumberland Fusilier Regiment, now a true crime podcaster based in central London. I don't have much experience in criminology, so this is mostly a record of how I met possibly the most brilliant and bizarre person I have ever and will ever know. Join me as I document the adventures of Sherlock Holmes.
♪♪
So in the problem of Thorbridge, I was like, I don't know if it's Grace. Like, I knew from the moment you guys talked about the bullet trajectory, because I watched most of that on the news and I saw Grace and he was like a big dude. Like, a big, big guy. Oh, sorry, I spat on you a little bit. That's OK. And Mattias was kind of small. Oh, watch out, dog shit. Yeah, thanks. Do you guys ever do cases like that? Like a dog shit that isn't cleaned up? Because that's like a £150 fine in this place. Do we ever...
Prosecute dog walkers for not clearing up dog poo? Yeah. No. No, we don't, Lillian. Ah, OK. Fair enough. You're busy, I suppose, innit? Yeah, so... Oh, wait, I had another question, actually, about the adventure of the cardboard box, cos I went to the trial hearing for... Where is it? Oh, it's, like, we're right near. Right near. A little further. Mm-hm. Oh, what was I saying?
Let me see.
I use gloves, so it's all un-thingied. Spoiled. Unspoiled. And what exactly is it? It's £15,780 cash. And the reason why that is important is... Amber Lee and Dr Ray Ernest. Yeah, that's right. God, I thought I was going to have to explain it all out, but of course you know. You always know, right? Have you called the police? I... So I called you guys. And I was thinking that I could kind of assist on this adventure, sort of.
Shadow? Little sort of intern gig? You haven't called the police? No, but we could go to them together. You're a fool! Oh, excuse me. Sherlock, Dr. Ernest and Mrs. Lee have been missing for a week. Her husband reported that he had been robbed to the tune of £15,780 in cash and you knew that? I... I just thought that... You are the worst true crime journalist out of the rotten lot.
And that is really saying something. Oh, yeah, all right. Let's calm down. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. You should be. Yes, this is Sherlock Holmes. Oxley's Wood, near Eltham. We have something pertaining to the Lee and Ernest case. Thank you. Scene may be contaminated. I can only apologise.
What's going to happen? The thing that is supposed to happen will happen. The police will inspect the scene. Sherlock. Two secs, Lillian. Let's just... Let's just take a deep breath. What is she still doing here? Sherlock, she's... She's young. She's excited about helping people. She wants to help herself. Let's...
Give her a break, shall we? Should we? This is a find, at least. A good find, you know? It took somebody to be tuned in to, you know, detection and stuff to find that, right? I'm not angry she found it. I'm angry that she did the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. The wrong... She didn't call the police because she wants attention. That's a bit cruel. The only cruelty here is the neglection of duty to the missing. And now I'm also certain...
So, who is she? Some... I don't know, true crime wannabe sort of thing, amateur sleuth. There's a lot of that. There is a lot of that, yeah.
Oh, hey, we provide a valuable service to the police. Christ, first the Radio Times, now you. Will you get over the Radio Times thing? I am over it. So what? They call me incompetent. Who cares? Not me. I don't give a shit. But, I mean, there is actually a problem with people kind of, you know, getting involved with cases. Hello.
Thank God for that. Why does he do that? Why does he have to find the creepiest possible note with that thing? I feel like my life is being scored like I'm in a horror movie. Do you think that we've been a problem? Hmm? With our little true crime venture? Not really. Says the woman who co-owns the business. Yeah, but I don't think... I mean, it's... it's different. Why? Because... because Sherlock has a relationship with the police already.
They use his services when they need to. He's got a track record. Yeah, true. Is he speaking with them now? Yeah, I'd say so. About the missing couple? They're not a couple, actually. They're not? Well, no. She's married. He's not. Ah, I see. Yep. Looking her up now. Amber Lee. Ooh, she's Vietnamese. She's... she's pretty. She lives... lived with her husband in Lewisham, south-east London...
Mr. Lee is much older, also Vietnamese, but moved to the UK in the 80s or something, I think. Huang Lee. Yeah, he's 65, it says here. Amber is 38, so, yeah. And the missing doctor, Ray? Ah, here. He is 40. What's that? Her socials. What's she doing? Something in Vietnamese. Hard to watch, given the circumstances. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm glad we're not involved in this one, actually. It's tough, isn't it? I mean, this is what I think people don't realise about true crime. I mean, yes, it's thrilling. Yes, it conducts large audiences. And yes, it's addictive. But ultimately, it's a huge burden, psychologically. It's really not easy for me to carry around, no siree. We're off to Lewisham. The police have allowed it. Get in! Welcome to Lewisham.
spelled Lewis Ham. Not to be confused with Lewis Hamilton. He's a person, not a place. Is that a... Shut up, John. South-east London. Pretty busy pocket of the city. I hope there's no one from Lewisham that's going to be offended by this, but not the best looking place. Got a big A road that goes right through it and invariably that brings a lot of traffic. Still, you know, handy little high street. All the amenities.
I think. I don't know. I mean, what's an amenity these days? Phone repair and charity shop, judging by most high streets. Anyway, we're here at Haven Road. Now, bit of town planning and emission zone chat here, but bear with me. It's important. As I mentioned, Lewisham sits on the A20. Our area of interest is Haven Road, where Huang Li, the retiree, and his missing wife, Amber, live. As does Ray. Dr. Ray. Now,
Before August 2023 Lewisham was not in what we call the ULEZ, which is an acronym. It stands for ultra-low emissions. It's an area inside London that requires vehicles to reach a certain climate-friendly standard. Well, not climate-friendly, just...
Less climate unfriendly. An emissions standard, basically. Now it wasn't in that zone before, but now it is. What does that mean and why is it important? Well, I'll tell you. Eventually. Yes, thank you. In order for TfL, that's the transport authority in London, to enforce ULEZ, they need cameras. And what do we have staring right down Haven Road and at the house of Mr and Mrs Lee? A camera.
TfL have handed all the footage to the police, and this is where it gets interesting. A week ago, they find the footage of Mrs Lee entering her home with Dr Ray Ernest. And what did they then discover, Mr Holmes? Nothing. Nothing. No footage of them leaving. No footage of anyone arriving. The plot does indeed thicken, like a big evil soup. And here we are. Monotonous brick streets, weary urban highways,
the occasional island of ancient culture and comfort. And here lies this old home, surrounded by high, sun-baked walls, mottled... Cut out the poetry, Watson. It's a wall. This is texture, mate. This is bringing the listener along with us into the story. It's not a story. It's a case.
The Colour Man? The Colour Man. What's the Colour Man? Oh, it says it there. Sherlock Holmes. Nice to see you keeping dry. Inspector MacKinnon. This is Dr John Watson and... Mariana. I'm Echazurra. Good to meet you, Inspector MacKinnon. Rory, please. Who's the Colour Man, Rory? Oh, aye. The Colour Man. That was his company, Wang Lee. Some decorating service. Did all right, as you can see.
We're tired now, but kooky old guy still loves a lick of paint. Jesus. How so? You'll see. Well, you'll smell. Oh. Oh, God. What is that smell? Paint. Wow. Christ, that's more than a lick. Strong smelling paint. Mm-hmm. Very strong. You see what I mean?
He just nipped off for a slash, but he'll be back in a tick. He's here. Mr Lee. Aye. You think he did it? Well, it don't smell right. And I'm sure his shite don't mean the pain. I'm inclined to agree with you. They entered the house and never came out, Sherlock. Last activity on their phones came from here. Barely bloody ten minutes after the camera saw them going in. Then why haven't you arrested him? Basically, because we don't want to lock a guy up just because his wife ran off with another fella.
Our department's had a nasty time of it recently. Two big trials, not gone our way. Why? Evidence. Lack thereof. But he could have killed them. Could have. Aye. But that ain't enough. If we can't find a body... Bodies. Hmm. So, what's the next move? Well, that is the big fucking shiny question, isn't it? We've got him on the ropes, am I right?
But we need the knockout blow. Yeah, big old right hook needed. You know your wee pal's discovery makes things a little trickier now, don't you? She's not a pal, she's an idiot. Yeah, so what's the situation? What's with the cash? Well, a week ago it looked like Mr Huang Li here got robbed by his cheating wife and she took off with her lover boy doctor. Money taken, she's gone, he's gone. We dug into the relationship between Amber and Ray and...
Aye, it looks like they were, you know, a bit of the old. Right, in a fair. But now the cash turns up, buried in some forest. Not good. Nope, not good. Stupid question. Why not good? Because, initially, someone wanted it to look like they robbed Mr Lee and ran off together. And if they wanted it to look like that, it means they didn't want it to look like the lovers were killed. And that someone...
my opinion that someone is coming this way right now Mr. Lee this is a third party investigation unit they're very useful to us as a second pair of eyes and I'm more visitors aye more visitors that's right
Sherlock, Marianna and John, this is Mr. Huang Li. Hi, Mr. Li. Doing a bit of painting, are you? Always. Fresh. Makes the walls feel new. Quite the smell. Smell of change. Indeed. You like to paint, Mr. Li. It was my work, my life. It is peaceful.
Methodical. I advise against it in this instance. Why would that be? Makes it very difficult to find blood. The police have found nothing in a week. I do not think my pain is to blame. And you like your chess. How is this? How do you know this? It's an annoying cognitive habit, isn't it? Walking like a knight on floor tiles. Two vertical, one horizontal. Ha ha ha ha!
Right, um...
I was just saying, Mr. Lee, we've searched this house top to bottom with our unit. We'd like to extend the task to Sherlock's team. Again, you must look. That's right. Something to hide, Mr. Lee? You wish to search for something that cannot be found. And what would that be? I must think. Mr. Lee! Well, you've certainly got your work cut out for you. Now go find me those bodies.
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So the next time you're shopping for yourself or someone special, choose extraordinary items, handmade, handpicked, or designed by small businesses. Keep commerce human. Discover small businesses on Etsy. I see painting every single room. Ugh. I mean, who does that? Well...
A retired colour man, it would seem. His wife is missing and he's just painting over and over. Oh god, these films are making me gag. But it is just this occasion he has chosen to do so. What do you mean? Sherlock. I'm only peeling a little bit off. Look at that. What is it? That's wallpaper under there. Old wallpaper. It's warped, cracking a little, discoloured, stained underneath.
He hasn't painted this house for decades, but now he decides to do it. Right, OK, can we address the elephant in the room here? He murdered them. He murdered them. The old Vietnamese bloke downstairs with about five teeth murdered his wife and her lover. He did indeed. Sorry, what the hell are we doing here? This is not that kind of case. Oh, this is one of the cases where the murderer gets away with it. It's not who, it's how and where. No, it's when.
When the fuck do we arrest him? There's no bodies, so... is it murder? No, not technically. But... courts have ruled on this before. They would do it for this. I mean, their DNA is all over the house. Their fingerprints, their hair... They were having an affair. In this house.
You'll find plenty of their skin, their hair, their juices. Oh, Sherlock, don't say juices. This is a family show. You just said fuck. Sherlock, what are you doing? I tried to limit the amount of fucks per episode and you've just... Right, OK, right, no one say it. No offensive words. We're right in people's ears, OK? Just remember that.
Oh, Mary, grow up. Honestly. The paint. It's everywhere and still wet. Every single room has wet paint. Every room. Are you allowed to do that? Is she allowed to do that? We're here to assist. You know how sometimes we get a case and a few details and we're like, well, hang on, this doesn't add up. Mm-hm. Well, this adds up. You know, wife of creepy man has affair. Wife of creepy man goes missing with lover. I mean, this...
He's gloating, Sherlock. The man is gloating down there. Zugzwang. I beg your pardon? It's a chess term. And what is Zugzwang? He's forcing us to make a bad move, putting us at an immediate disadvantage. The even playing field of turn-based games is that both sides simply must, always, without fail, make a move. His is a waiting move. And if it's effective, Zugzwang. Zugzwang.
Right, so you're saying he's acting weird and suspicious, which will provoke the police so that he gets arrested with incomplete evidence. Exactly. The police have done very well up to this point. McKinnon has held firm. He wants to be arrested when the case against him is at its weakest. Then take his chances in court.
Yet as time has gone on, and thanks to the police patience, the lovers have not shown up and the cash has been discovered. His position is weakened. He's in check. But a stalemate remains a distinct possibility. McKinnon? And in a stalemate, he wins. Exactly. McKinnon!
Yes, Sherlock. What is it, pal? Who's visited the house, apart from the police? Nobody. Not a soul. And he never left? Never. No. He never left. The bodies aren't in the house. And somehow the cache did leave and buried itself in a forest. Aye. Aye.
That's correct. That garden? No footprints. No signs of climbing over the wall. And even if somebody did climb the back wall, you've got an alleyway that has cameras on both ends. Who else does he know? His phone record is a duller than mine, Sherlock, pal. Just calls back to Vietnam and calls to the missus. The missing missus? Or a different missus?
They're missing, missus. That's a Britishism. Missus is a term for one's partner. Could be a wife or girlfriend. Watson, shush. We know he buried the cash. We just don't know when. We know he buried the cash. Yes. For goodness sake. Watson, tell him. What? Did you not observe? On Mr Lee. Left shoe wrinkled, right one smooth.
Meaning? Prosthetic leg. Prosthetic leg. Correct. Prosthetics distribute weight in one fixed spot, unlike the rolling motion of a foot. That wears down the shoe. I spotted the exact type of footprint, albeit very faint, at the Cache burial site. I took a photograph here.
Why? It won't be there long. We're lucky it remained visible for at least a week. See how the right foot plants flat? Oh, Christ. You can keep that. You'll need it now the rain has come. Thanks. Thanks for that. Have you noticed anything unusual about the house itself? Not really. Yes. Oh. You have? Oh, I... Sorry. Sorry. It's just a... It's just a tiny thing. Not really relevant. What is it? The...
Okay, so when I worked at Hudson's I managed properties and I'd go into ones which were very old and just taken over by the company and I would... I had to manage their refurbishment. Fixing dam, bringing electrics up to code, sorting any structural problems, then just decoration stuff, usually. But one of the things that would come up in these old homes
is the plumbing, right? The water system. It was always, always super old. Gravity-fed? Right, yes. Gravity-fed systems. From, like, what, 50 years ago or something? Even older, I bet. Sorry, what's a gravity-fed system? Old homes would act like a water tower to get water pressure into the pipes. Then, when you switch on a tap in your house, it would come out fast. Because...
Yeah, because gravity. Right. Yeah, I remember my nan had that. Yeah? It's pretty common. What have you noticed? He still has his cylinder. His immersion heating cylinder for that old system. But he has a combination boiler in the kitchen. I saw it when we came in. I watched plumbers fit like 20 of those things. You don't have both. You don't need both. Combination boiler is new. The cylinder is redundant. Just...
Yeah, I... I don't know. Maybe he's just a weird guy. Sorry, I... No, no, that's good, Mrs Hudson. That's good. Oh, thanks. Right, but let's just... Hold on. Right, I know I keep pushing this, and I'm sorry, but we all know he did it, right? Mm-hmm. Right, so why are we saying a court won't believe that? We're sceptical people, and we've landed comfortably at that conclusion.
Listen, it's the chess thing you said, Sherlock. Zizwang, or whatever it was. Zugzwang. A move has to be made by somebody. That's just... that's the game we're playing. Games. Very good. Oh, God, Jesus Christ. I like games. Yes, we know you do, Mr. Lee. You are interested in chess? Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't mind it. Knight to d5, all that, but bishop to...
Yeah. I teach it. Cool. Cool. Nice. Nice. You wish to be a student? Hmm. Not after what happened to the last one. And what happened to the last one, Sherlock? Because I would very much like to know myself. Well, I'll have to keep playing the game to find out. Oh, please do. Have fun. Fun is fun. Yeah, fun is fun. Yeah.
You have a prosthetic leg, Mr. Lee. Nearly ended up having one myself. How'd you find it? Okay, easy, easy, Mr. Lee. Really? John? Yeah, he was blown up. In Ukraine? Jesus Christ. I left a country full of war. You run to a country full of war.
We see the world differently. Well, yeah. I mean, that's why you're a chess genius and I'm not.
Silly decisions? No explosions in chess. Well, you say that. Watson to C4. Bang! C4. That is funny. Sherlock! Sherlock! Get off him! Get off him! Strangling him! Sherlock! Nearly got it. Sherlock! Pick that up. Pick that up and give it to me. What the hell is that? Was that in his mouth? Give it to me now.
That is a poor move, Wang Li. A very poor move. Sherlock, what is that? What was in his mouth? Mr. Li here seems to feel the need to store a cyanide capsule in the gum of one of his missing molars. And why would that be, Mr. Li? Well, it's time for my move, isn't it? I must make one, mustn't I? The paint. The sheer amount of it. It isn't to cover the walls. It's to cover the smell.
The smell of amber and ray. What have you done with the bodies? To binge this adventure in full and without ads, go to patreon.com forward slash Sherlock and Co.
Oh, my God.
Hello everybody, Tom Holland here, the co-host of The Rest is History with some very, very exciting news. Now to celebrate this year's Olympic Games, which of course are being held in Paris, we thought that we would dive into the story of another period when incredible spectacles were being staged in the French capital to much bloodier effect than anything we will see in the Olympics. And this is the story of the French Revolution.
Over the span of eight episodes running throughout the duration of the Olympics, we'll be looking at the incredible life of Marie Antoinette, the storming of the Bastille, King Louis XVI's attempted escape from Paris with the rest of the royal family, and many more seismic events. So to hear our series on the French Revolution, simply search for The Rest Is History wherever you get your podcasts.
