SERIAL KILLER: Herb Baumeister from Indianapolis
39:24 Share

Ada Haradine was a quiet woman living in a quiet neighborhood, the kind of neighborhood where you'd think nothing could go wrong. But on May 8th, 1985, Ada wasn't where she was supposed to be. She had changed her plans to be with her son for a Mother's Day Mass. Later that day, around 3:10, she was seen working in her yard. But by 3:20, she was gone. Three years later, her body was discovered less than 12 miles away in a wooded area.

Finding her should have brought answers, but instead it only led to more haunting questions. What really happened to Ada Haradine? This season on The Deck Investigates, I'm digging deep into Ada's life, her disappearance, and the mysteries that still surround her death. Join me as I uncover the truth wherever it leads. Listen to The Deck Investigates now wherever you get your podcasts.

From your morning podcast to your afternoon playlist, we know you personalize your entire day. That's why State Farm helps you personalize your insurance with the State Farm Personal Price Plan. It offers coverage options that help protect what you care about most at an affordable price just for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices vary by state. Options selected by customer. Availability and eligibility may vary.

Credit Union West is a brand new location in Phoenix and we're celebrating with a grand opening on November 6th. Join us for food, prizes, and limited time offers. New members get $150 when they open a reward checking account. Plus, enter to win a luxury two-night stay at the Fairmont Scottsdale Princess.

It's all happening Wednesday, November 6th, 10 to 5 at Credit Union West's new Biltmore branch on 16th Street, just north of Camelback. Find all the details at cuwest.org slash Biltmore. Get $150 when requirements are met. No purchase necessary to win. See website for complete rules. Federally insured by NCUA.

If you've ever felt like the auto repair business is broken, you're not alone. Everybody's over it. From talking down to selling up to car-splaining mechanics, you're just done putting up with BS. Bad service.

At Midas, we're on a mission to redefine car care, where, get this, we talk to you like a real person, helping you plan for today and down the road. Imagine that. We're driving forward with this in mind. Reroute to Midas, where we're putting an end to BS.

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And listen, summer is officially coming to an end, but I hear you guys, you guys have been so vocal about loving the Thursday throwback episodes we were doing. So I figured maybe we could keep it going a little bit longer.

It just so happens we have 16 weeks left in 2024. So for each Thursday through the rest of the year, I'm going to be giving you a different episode of Crime Junkie from the archives. Or if you're a new listener, it's stuff buried in the back catalog of hundreds and hundreds of episodes.

It's almost like my very own era's tour, if you will, honoring these past cases and the evolution of Crime Junkie Nation. But there's also a secret message hidden among these 16 episodes. So see if you can find the Easter eggs among them.

And to start, I'm starting right here in my hometown of Indianapolis with a case that we released just a couple of months after we launched Crime Junkie. So be kind, because this is Ashley and Britt circa 2018 when we were just baby crime junkies. This is the story of one of Indianapolis' most infamous serial killers, Herb Baumeister. ♪

All right, crime junkies, I heard you. And I'm finally covering the local Indianapolis serial killer Herb Baumeister. This has been requested over and over and over. So let's just do it.

And a quick note, as I was researching this case, I've always known about this case at a very high level. Yeah. But for whatever reason, I always thought that it took place in the 70s. It didn't? No, it took place in the, I mean, really when everything blew up was the late 90s. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. I don't remember this like because that would make it contemporary to us. Yeah. To a certain extent. Yeah. Which I don't know why, but it's super recent. And for some reason, it makes it way more interesting for some reason to me. So I'm into it. Let's do it. Yeah. So I'm going to start the story in 1993. There was a 32 year old man named Roger who goes out to an Indianapolis gay bar one night and never returns home.

His mother is immediately concerned the next morning when he doesn't arrive home by 1030. And she just has a feeling that something is wrong. She says the first thing she did was call his friend Rick. And just a side note, like I was watching this on a documentary and the mom's talking about the friend Rick and cut to Rick. His title is partner. So mom straightened denial. But OK, cool. Oh, wow.

I mean, the documentary was like in the 90s. So, you know, Indies come a long way since then, at least I like to think. So his partner of 17 years, Rick, said that he knew all of Roger's friends. He knew where he hung out. And after he exhausted all of those leads and still couldn't find him, he basically started this crazy calling tree where everyone in the community was calling around, asking

30 days?

30 days. I've heard like the 24, 48 hour thing, but I've never heard of 30 days. I had never heard this either. So I didn't know if this is maybe like an adult thing or if, I mean, this was early 90s. Maybe people in the gay community weren't getting the kind of attention. I have no idea, but I was shocked. But basically they said they wanted to make sure they just didn't show back up.

So Roger's mom and his friend slash partner, Rick, are like, forget this. Like, we're doing this ourselves. And they go and hire a PI. He's a retired officer named Virgil who is on the case full Columbo style.

He starts asking around, putting feelers out, and a few days into his investigation, he gets a really worrisome call. Another family wants to hire him, and they too have a gay son who went missing after he was last known to have gone out to a gay bar in Indianapolis. And the similarities don't end there. This missing man's name is Alan, and he's about the same height, same weight as Roger. They both have similar jobs.

Neither one had a cell phone or credit cards that they could track down. So the only thing Virgil could do was hit the streets and talk to people. He made up flyers for both men and had a team that would go out when the clubs were crowded and talk to the usuals there. And really their legwork pays off because they start getting tips that the night Roger was out, he was seen getting into a car with a man in the front of the library downtown.

The only details they can get from these witnesses was that the car was blue and it had an Ohio license plate.

They also went down a little bit of a rabbit hole at this point because they got a tip that there was this male prostitution ring being run out of a downtown business in Indianapolis and Roger might have been involved with it. So the investigator has his team spend a ton of time staking this place out, but absolutely nothing comes of it. So it was a little bit of time wasted.

They eventually go back to staking out the clubs, looking for this blue car with an Ohio license plate, since they felt that it was really the best lead that they had to go off of. Weeks go by, no one spots this car, so police start to think that maybe this was a bogus tip as well. Then another tip comes in that makes Virgil really concerned.

A publisher for a gay magazine calls Virgil and says, I just want you to be aware that the two guys you're looking for are not the only ones. We've been getting reports of a number of gay men going missing in Indianapolis. And I don't know how this publisher knew this. My only thought is,

is that perhaps families were having trouble getting law enforcement to take these cases seriously. And went to the media. Yeah, and maybe they were trying to get articles published in magazines that they thought would be circulated in the communities that their sons were tied to. I have no idea, but that's what I can assume. And this is when Virgil gets his first inclination that he might be dealing with a serial killer.

At this point, the 30-day mark has finally hit on Roger's case, and police were going to look into his disappearance and take it seriously. What IMPD hadn't told Virgil, but Virgil has heard rumors of through that magazine publisher, was that there were, in fact, a number of gay men who had vanished into thin air in Indianapolis. To be exact, there were a total of eight men over two years that police believe could have been connected.

That's so many. As Roger's family, that would be infuriating. His case should have been taken so much more seriously. Yeah. I mean, you would think that they would have connected them and realized that Roger probably just didn't run off if there's this pattern.

And police even had a suspect for these. Apparently, there was a man who they were able to link to three of the missing men. And all three had a relationship with him at some point. But this guy actually ended up being super cooperative. And he submitted to a voluntary search of his home and even let the police take cadaver dogs through his property. And they couldn't find anything to link him to the missing men. So they eventually had to let that lead die.

And police at this point have nothing to go on. They're basically waiting for one of these guys to either show back up or for another man to go missing and maybe leave some more clues. Well, thank God at this point, while they're just sitting and waiting, a man named Tony calls into police with a crazy story. And it totally gives them the first credible lead that they've had in a long time. So here's the story that Tony tells them.

He's out at one of the bars that night where the missing men had frequented, and he meets a white male in his 40s. They're getting along. They have a couple drinks. And this guy, who says his name is Brian Smart, invites him back to his place for some more drinks and to go for a swim. And Tony agrees. So they get in this guy's car, drive and drive and drive, and he realizes he's driving him way north out of downtown to what he calls a mansion.

And when they get to the house, Brian offers Tony a cocktail, which he refuses. And Brian seems flustered by that. He excuses himself for a couple of minutes. And when he comes back, he's looser. He's chatty. So Tony thinks that maybe he went to the bathroom and did drugs or something. Brian leads Tony to this indoor lap pool that he has for a dip. But the pool room was straight up the creepiest thing I could ever imagine.

Britt, okay, if a man takes you home and he takes you to his pool, what is the creepiest thing that could be in this pool room that would just give you the heebie-jeebies from head to toe? I know what's in there, so I can't say. Oh, you already know? Okay. So all the listeners had a chance to guess. The creepiest thing is surrounding the entire pool are mannequins dressed up and posed...

And Brian says he gets lonely there and he likes to stage these mannequins like he's having a party and these are his friends. Can you imagine walking? And like, especially because like I imagine it like a hotel pool when it's closed, you know, so it's kind of dark, but there's lights in the pool illuminating the room. And it's humid and it smells like chlorine. And you just see this party, literally, of mannequins everywhere.

And you can see like the water and like the light. It like ripples and like it's full body chills. So Tony doesn't go out running at this point. And this is my crime junkie life rule number five. Oh my God.

If someone is creeping you the F out, it is okay to be rude. I don't know why people don't trust their senses. This guy is home alone in a mansion with mannequin friends. And that's weird. And it's okay to tell this guy that he's being weird. Like, side note, I'm going to go off on a tangent for just a second. I was reading a story just yesterday on Facebook about how this girl at a local Meijer here in Indiana...

kind of being followed around by this guy. I read that too. Yeah. And she's like in a store and he's following her and he's asking her all the questions that we know people ask when they're like going to take someone. Like, do you have family? Would someone be waiting for you? And she says that she's checking out and he's following her and he only buys a gum gum.

Or something. Yeah. Just buys a stick of gum and she's like trying to act like her car doesn't work. And then she's walking out to her car and she, the guy's still following her. She's getting freaked out. So she like goes, she sees a guy getting out of his car and she's like, oh,

I haven't seen you in so long. And she writes this message on her phone like, this guy's following me. Pretend I know you. And this guy plays along. But I'm like, why? She says something like, I've been trying to get a hold of you, but I think I have the wrong number. Can you check? And shows him his phone, which honestly, brilliant. Yeah.

No, but why? Why go through this whole charade? If this guy is being a weirdo, just acknowledge that he's being a weirdo and he's following you. Go straight to security or tell this guy you know he's following you. You're not going to fall for this s**t.

I don't know why everyone is so afraid of being rude because honestly, worst case scenario, like this guy is totally normal and you're, he's just going to think you're a weirdo who's rude, but like, you'll never see him again. Yeah. Be a weirdo. Be rude. Stay alive. Who cares what this guy thinks? I mean, if you really, I don't know. I don't know why people don't trust their senses. I don't know why this guy saw these mannequins around the pool and like played it cool. I'm going to take a deep breath because I'm really worked up right now.

But that's my rule. The mannequin thing is like one of the creepiest things. I can't get over it. Be weird. Be rude. Stay alive.

So this guy is polite, though, and as a result, he is about to almost straight up die. Tony is swimming, and while he's swimming, Brian asks him if he's ever tried to be choked during sex. He tells him that it really heightens everything. It's unlike anything you've ever experienced. And he asks him if he wants to try it. So wait, a man who has mannequin friends, what?

wants to choke you. That's, yeah, totally normal. I get it. Okay. Yeah, well, Tony thinks it's totally normal too. He'll try anything once, I guess, because he agrees. He lets Brian wrap a pool hose around his neck and Brian begins to pull. And Tony says that there was this moment when he realizes Brian's pulling tighter and tighter. And in his mind, he says, oh crap, this guy isn't going to stop. He is going to kill me.

So instead of fighting, what Tony does is he pretends to pass out and Brian lets up. But when Tony opens his eyes, he says that Brian looks totally shocked and he tried to play it off like, oh, yep, that's exactly how it's supposed to go. And Tony eventually gets out of the home alive and well, but he was sure that whatever was happening to the men in Indianapolis, this guy had something to do with it.

But police are fearful that Brian isn't done with Tony because Brian actually keeps reaching out to Tony afterwards. He calls him. He even shows up at his house. So they're afraid that he's, like, thinking that Tony is a loose end. But for as much as...

Tony learned about Brian Smart, he really knew nothing. Police knew that this guy was using a fake name because they couldn't find anything on him. And while Tony remembers that they drove north and he saw a sign with the word farms on it,

He didn't remember anything else. He said that the house had a like really long, curvy driveway, but he couldn't remember specific directions. He couldn't remember what road they were on. So police convinced Tony to act as bait for them. Since Brian is reaching out to him and obviously wants to get back together with him, whether it's to kill him or be with him or whatever, they say, you know, we're going to have you meet up with him and then go to his house so we can follow you.

They set up a meeting time, but Brian either got really lucky or he knew the police were on to him because he didn't show up. So police are extra concerned that this guy might be their man. So they take what they have to the drawing board. Man named Brian, long curvy driveway, somewhere north of Indianapolis and a sign out from the mansion that says Farms on it.

Also, Tony reconfirms the tip that police had gotten earlier that the car he was in did have Ohio license plates. Police really hone in on the Ohio police and they actually reach out to detectives there. And wouldn't you know it, they have something to add. Yes. Police in Ohio tell them that what they're experiencing has been going on in Ohio since the mid 80s.

In 85, 86, 89, and 90, they were finding bodies of strangled men off of I-70, which runs east to west from Indiana to Ohio. They had traced all of these men to the gay community in Indianapolis and found out that all of them were last seen there.

The police are confident that this is the same guy, but why change MOs? Why start dumping bodies in a state away and then just stop? And was he dumping them somewhere else? Or why aren't they showing up? Is he keeping them alive?

Everyone close to the investigation believed that the guy's confidence was growing. And this was concerning because he's getting more comfortable. The murders were getting closer and closer together. He's clearly getting better at what he's doing because police can't even find the bodies now. Right. And he is showing no signs of slowing down.

They're back. Verizon Small Business Days are here. October 14th to the 20th. Meet with our experts. Get one-on-one advice, a free tech check, and special offers. Like a free 5G phone when you switch. Don't miss out. Call 1-800-483-4428. Or go to verizon.com slash smallbusiness. Offer available for select 5G phones. New device payment purchase agreement and select biz unlimited plan required. Credit applied over agreement term up to 36 months. Terms apply. Limited time offer.

We all have plans in life, maybe to take a cross-country road trip or simply get through this workout without any back pain. Whether our plans are big, small, spontaneous, or years in the making, good health helps us accomplish them. At Banner Health, we're here to provide more than health care. Whatever you're planning, wherever you're going, we're here to help you get there. Banner Health. Exhale.

After they talk to police in Ohio, they decide to have a meeting with the police from the northern districts in Indiana. They explain what little info they have and ask everyone, do you know of a property that has this winding driveway that leads to a big house with an indoor pool and would be called something farms? And sure enough, police in Hamilton County recognize this as a home off of 156th Street. Not a couple of homes, like

The one home. Yeah. Yep. It's 156th Street is in a suburb off of Indianapolis called Westfield. They send investigators to do a drive-by, basically check this place out. And they come across this estate called Fox Hollow Farms. And it matches Tony's description to a T. They find out that the home doesn't belong to anyone named Brian. It's the home of Herb and Julie Baumeister and their three children.

Indy police are ready to turn this place upside down and look for anything that will connect this house to their missing men. But the home isn't located in their jurisdiction. And when they go to the Hamilton County judge, the judge won't sign off on any search warrant based on one quote, unreliable witness. And they say Herb is an upstanding businessman in their community and they won't infringe on his rights based on a rumor.

So no help from them. About the same time, there's a man in one of these gay clubs that sees a suspect exactly like the police have described getting into a car with Ohio license plate. And he actually takes down the license plate number. And when he gives that to police, sure enough, the car is registered to Herb.

They even show a picture of her to the guy who he almost killed. And Tony says, yeah, it's definitely a close match to the guy I went home with that night. And they take both of this to Hamilton County and Hamilton County still won't approve a search warrant.

At this point, all they can do is learn about Herb and keep an eye on him. And they really dig into his backstory, find out who he is now, who he was, and this is what they learn about him. He came from a pretty well-to-do family in Indianapolis. His dad was an anesthesiologist and Herb was one of four kids. Early on in his life, he displayed some disturbing and unusual signs.

For example, the Department of Psychology at Radford University studied Herb's life and found that in adolescence, he used to ponder what it was like to taste human urine. And he would pull unusual pranks, like he found this dead bird once, and he would place it on a teacher's desk just to see her reaction.

And according to this research, his father knew that something wasn't right with him and he would take him to get these like secret tests done. And very few results remain from what they found, but it appears that he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and the possibility of multiple personalities.

But there wasn't any more documentation outside of this. So his dad more than likely knew that there was something wrong with him and didn't attempt to get him help? From everything we can see, yes. Like he took him to get these tests, but there was like no follow-up done. He didn't have him like get treated. He wasn't in therapy. So unless he did and it wasn't documented, then likely no. And really likely he didn't get help because he went on to do these horrible things. Right, right.

So he grew up as kind of a loner, and when he graduated, he went to IU, spent like one semester there, dropped out, tried working. He eventually went back to IU in the fall of 1967, and there he met a woman named Julia. Julia was quoted as saying, he was nice, fun to be with, good looking, we both liked cars.

We know dad saw some crazy tendencies or something.

But Julie didn't? From all of her interviews, no. She didn't see any signs of the schizophrenia or the multiple personality. She said that they even did everything together, too. So it's not like they were apart. She said, like, when they were doing yard work, he was mowing, she was trimming. They were together all the time. She didn't see anything. But I think there were little signs that...

you know, looking back on, you want to point out, but maybe in the time just seemed like weird herb. During the early years of their marriage, Julie taught English and he began clerking at the State Bureau of Motor Vehicles. And he would end up working his way up to supervisor, so he had to be able to function pretty normally. But during his time there, people remember him doing some strange stuff. For example, one time he was upset with his boss, so he peed on his desk.

And another time, a co-worker said that she caught her, he had actually been keeping a cake in like his bottom desk drawer and not to eat it, like, or to snack on, but he would open it up every day and look at it because he wanted to watch it deteriorate. So, are you familiar with the McDonald Triad? No. Okay, so I was going to bring this up when you brought up his dad noticing things. So the McDonald Triad, I don't know a ton about the history of it, but it's basically...

Three things that you can see in early childhood that may be indicators of a child having some personality or emotional difficulties in the future. Ooh, can I guess what they are? Sure. Cruelty to animals. Mm-hmm. Setting fires. Yes. Now I'm forgetting the triad, but possibly. Okay, what's a triad? Because I don't know. So there's bedwetting, cruelty to animals, and I think it is setting fires. But...

He had tendencies to want to drink people's urine, which reminds me of bedwetting. And the teacher had a dead bird that he found on her desk. What's the likelihood that the bird was already dead when he found it?

So that's two out of three. Plus he peed on a desk as an adult and wanted to watch something decay at his workplace. Those seem like pretty big indicators of the triad to me. Right. So he, again, he had these signs and his dad was seeing these signs and his coworkers even were like seeing some of this at work. They said at work, he was actually a perfectionist given to like sudden unprovoked rages. And all of this stuff, again, in hindsight is creepy AF.

But I can imagine at the time, Herb's just like the coworker everyone has who you're like,

Oh, just Herb being crazy Herb. It's that one crazy guy I work with. Like, avoid him, but we work together. He's benign, whatever. Herb's just looking at his cake in the drawer. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like I've worked with people who are, like, weird. The closest Julie ever got to recognizing something was truly wrong was in the early 70s. Herb became so depressed that his father actually had him committed for over a month to a psychiatric hospital.

Julie didn't dispute the decision. She said that he was, quote, hurting and needing help.

So again, they're saying it's just depression. I don't know if it was something else. And again, it was his father that had him committed. So I don't know if his father maybe saw some stuff that like he saw as red flags, but didn't share it with Julie. But he gets out and it seems that this was his only hospitalization as an adult. Julie and Herb go on to have three kids and they open a chain of thrift stores in Indianapolis that end up doing pretty well to begin with.

And he and his family buy this $1 million estate called Fox Hollow Farms. Something police note is that at the time they purchased this estate, bodies stopped showing up in Ohio. So was he just dumping bodies in Ohio? And now he has a place for them? Right. Or something? Yeah.

What they're thinking is that, like, before they had this small house, they didn't have a ton of land. So if he were to kill somebody, he can't dump them in their front yard. You don't want to bury them on public property. It's likely they'll be found. So they think he was taking them to Ohio. Now he doesn't even have to leave his own home. He can bury them on property that no one else can step foot on without permission.

Building a business may feel like a big jump, but OnDeck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top-rated online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit OnDeck.com for more information.

Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

We all have plans in life, maybe to take a cross-country road trip or simply get through this workout without any back pain. Whether our plans are big, small, spontaneous, or years in the making, good health helps us accomplish them. At Banner Health, we're here to provide more than health care. Whatever you're planning, wherever you're going, we're here to help you get there. Banner Health. Exhale.

So at this point, police know his house is a dead ringer for Tony's story. They know Herb is still a little bit off, but they don't have anything solid. And they know to get evidence, they need to get onto this property. They make an attempt to confront Herb face-to-face at one of his thrift stores, and he denies any involvement. He refuses to let them search his home. But police say that while they're talking to him, they can just see the vein in his neck, like,

out of his body. He's getting worked up. Oh, yeah. They know he's lying. So without his cooperation, their investigation is at a standstill. So three months pass before they learn that Julie and Herb are getting a divorce. And Herb has moved out. So the home is just occupied by Julie. And they're like, bingo. Julie is our in.

And they're hoping that if they tell Julie that Herb is the suspect, because at this point she still has no idea, that she and Herb will be on bad terms and maybe she will cooperate with them because of that. So police go to Fox Hollow Farms, confront Julie at the door, telling her that they were investigating her husband for, quote,

Homosexual homicide. That seems pretty specific. Is that a real thing? Julie said the same thing. She was like, what is the homosexual homicide? And I don't know if this is, again, just them being like ignorant in the time. They would say they were searching for these guys in quotes, gay Indianapolis. Or if this is them attempting to like

kind of like side eye wink wink let her in on the fact that her husband was probably gay without saying it because again at this point they couldn't prove that he had had sex with any of them so I don't know Julie says I don't know what that is and when they go on to explain to her this these rash of disappearances of gay men in Indianapolis along with bodies found in Ohio she's like nope getting a divorce but I don't hate the man enough to help you say he's a murderer peace shut the door in your face

Plus, Julie has no clue that her husband might even be gay. Remember, they fell in love because they're uber conservative. So I'm sure in her mind, she's like, y'all got the wrong guy. There's no way. Yeah, like she can't even like fathom that he would...

be going to a gay club, much less bringing back these men and then murdering them at their home. But when they leave Julie, obviously this stays with her. She can't stop thinking about this. And she remembers something strange that happened several months earlier. Her son had come in from playing outside and he tells her that he found a skull. And, you know, little boys are like, okay. So she goes out to check and

And sure enough, there's actually a cluster of bones. And when Herb gets home, she tells him about it. And he's like, oh, yeah, that's just my dad's anatomy skeleton because my dad's a doctor. And totally normal. Never discussed it again. Herb cleaned up the bones and Julie just never saw it. They never spoke about it. Totally normal. Yeah. Julie calls her attorney and she tells him about this visit from police and

And she tells him this crazy story about the bones, but she's like, don't say anything to anyone. Like, this is just between you and me. WTF, Julie, come on. Oh, I know. I would be all about winning in a divorce, and this seems like a major trump card to play. But while Julie is twiddling her thumbs and trying to convince herself that her husband isn't a serial killer, police get the idea to do an infrared search of the property, which

They don't need a search warrant to fly over, and so they get a team together with these special equipment that can detect body heat. Wouldn't it be a little bit late for body heat to be detected if we're looking at actual piles of bones as opposed to, like, even decomposing bodies? Yeah, and that's what they find out. If there are bodies anywhere on this property, they've been dead too long to show anything on these cameras, so it is another bust for law enforcement.

While this is all going down, the divorce between Julie and Herb gets even more contemptuous. And she starts fearing for her children. And her lawyer says he even fears for Julie's life. And the final straw is when Herb took their son on a lake trip and refused to bring him back home. So Julie's like...

all right, I can't be in denial any longer when it comes to the safety of my kids and myself. So in June of 1996, she allows police to come on their property while Herb's away. And she shows them where her son had found the original skeleton. But when police dig up the area, there's nothing there. And they end up sitting Julie down and they try to take her through their theory and their investigation. And as they're walking her through this and talking about when all these men have gone missing, they're like,

Julie compares those dates to her calendar. And every time a man went missing in Indianapolis, she and the kids were out of town to this lake that they would always go to. So they would go for like a weekend or sometimes for a full week in the summer.

And she said that Herb would always stay behind because he needed to attend to business. And she never even thought twice about it. But now it was becoming clear to her that he was staying home for other reasons. I was going to ask how she had no idea that this was going on if it's happening in her house. But if she was out of town...

Right. How could she? There was this lake that they would go to like an hour, hour and a half away. And she would go with the kids all the time. Like just we're going to pack up for the weekend. We're going to go to the lake. We're going to go for a week. And her being the family man and like the guy in charge of he's got three thrift stores now. Like he has to stay home. He tended the business. He can't be gone for a week.

And with this link, police are even more sure that they have their guy. And they start digging up the rest of the property with Julie's permission. When they start digging around on the rest of the property, bones start popping up like whack-a-moles. They're everywhere. And the police collect 11 bodies in total. 11? 11. And in this documentary, like, there was this passing note that,

That they were like, 11 bodies and no skulls were found. And then, like, excuse me, no skulls were found? What? Like, you can't just be like, but there were no heads and keep going. I know. We need to pause for a second and talk about the fact that there were no heads. I know, but at some point there had to have been at least one head, right? Because that's what his son found. So I don't know how legit this is. I've seen it a couple of times, but we're...

Oh my god. Okay.

What? Right?

So F this noise. Indianapolis police are getting nowhere. Herb's not coming home, so they're pretty sure he's gotten wind of the investigation and is on the run. And they go to Ohio police, and Ohio police decide that they're going to pick up the investigation since they have bodies in their own territory.

Julie had already confirmed with them that he had business in Dayton, Ohio, and all of his business trips coincided with bodies being found in Ohio. And that is all Ohio needed. So they get a warrant for Herb's car and tow it to Ohio and process it. During this time that they're doing that, police here in Indianapolis hear that Herb is in northern Michigan near the Canadian border, and he's been asking his brother to wire him money. But they can't pinpoint him.

Ohio police are still processing the car, and they realize that the trunk liner has been totally removed. And the only thing they can get is this itty bitty spot of blood that's too tiny to even process. So even Ohio hits a dead end. And keep in mind, with all of this, Hamilton County still isn't even interested in this guy. They're not looking for him. Come on!

I know. I don't know what more they need. But they were so afraid of throwing one of their, you know, air quote, upstanding citizens under the bus that I don't think I'll ever figure out what their deal was. Like, I'm not sure why they were so opposed to going after him. I don't know if his father had connections or he had connections or...

who knows but bodies on your property still won't go after him side note i did find this crazy clip online where herb had been interviewed by the local news about how he was driving in the car with his son and he saw a government vehicle that was painting the roadways like the stripes on the road this vehicle hits a raccoon and like paints over him and just keeps driving and he acts like he is just totally appalled at their carelessness for the life of this raccoon oh my

This is all that's left.

this was just you know a painter should have had a chalk line drawn around his career by state officials there was no excuse for that I mean the poor thing deserves a better fate than that so just what is the explanation so raccoon's a big deal meanwhile this is like in the midst of his serial killer rampage where he's killing actual humans humans and stowing them on his part and on his property yes I'll post

the full video on our website so you can see this guy but I assume this is the guy that Hamilton County was seeing and was struggling to arrest because they're like oh he feels bad for a raccoon I don't know how he could kill a human and

A little bit of a weird note, too. So the first thing he did when they run over this raccoon is he gets his Polaroid camera and goes out and takes a picture. Takes a picture! He does. Like, multiple pictures of it. So he plays it off like, oh, I wanted to show, and you guys are here, and I wanted to show you what they did. But maybe, just maybe, like, young Herb was coming out. I'm going to scrapbook this in, like, some weird murder scrapbook. Right. Or frame it for its mannequin parties. Yeah.

Eventually, police don't end up even needing Hamilton County's help. Hamilton never helps them. But they get a call that on July 4th, 1996, Herb had parked his car on the side of the road and shot himself in the forehead.

He left behind a three-page suicide note, kind of just rambling gibberish talking about he was sorry for his failing business and how that contributed to his marital problems. Nothing in the note about these murders or this apparently secret life that he lived. And in total, there were 21 men between Ohio and Indiana attributed to him. And who knows, possibly more if he ever found another dumping ground.

I mean, I don't know. Where are these heads? Are there more bodies with these heads? Herb's family have no closure on whether or not their dad was a serial killer. Yeah. So that's to me like the craziest part. I can't imagine being the daughter of Herb or the wife of Herb or the son of Herb because they literally get bombarded by these police. They think their dad's this totally normal dad. Police come, say your dad's a serial killer. They dig up all

these bodies on the property of the house that you've been living in. And then your dad kills himself. Yeah, and then your dad kills him. You don't even get the chance to

Yeah, I can't imagine. And based on the time period, his kids are probably around our age, right? Yeah.

Yeah, a little bit older, I think. I can't imagine being where I am today, even remotely my age, and living with this idea that maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. There's no complete closure. Like you said, even sitting down and being like, did this happen?

Be honest with me. I'm your kid. Yeah, like how... Why were you like this? Like, I didn't even know you were gay. To be able to confront that, yeah. Yeah, and was it really like... Was it all you? Were you this crazy psychopath? Or do you have these split personalities? And one of you is a wonderful family man. And one of you is this gay serial killer. Like, I just... So many questions. They actually went on to end up moving out of Fox Hollow Farms. And it went on to be rented and then sold. And they say...

that it's haunted and there's been a couple of paranormal shows that have gone out there and said there's been sightings of ghosts on the property but it's like a pretty big well-known property within Indianapolis. I don't know who owns it now but people definitely do like drive-bys still. It's gotta be weird to live there like knowing everything that went down. So crime junkie question, would you pay less or more for the property knowing what happened there? I hate to say it but I think more. Laughter

Wait, wait, question. Does it come with or without the mannequin? Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Your word is formaldehyde. Can you use it in a sentence? As you're sitting in your basement, you hit your vape, but then your mom walks in, freaks out, and starts listing the toxic chemicals you could be inhaling into your body like formaldehyde, which she singles out because it's the same chemical used to preserve your Uncle Rico's funky-smelling taxidermied fox. Formaldehyde. Oh.

Vaping can expose you to toxic chemicals like formaldehyde. No need to spell it out any more than that. Brought to you by The Real Cost and FDA.

We all have plans in life, maybe to take a cross-country road trip or simply get through this workout without any back pain. Whether our plans are big, small, spontaneous, or years in the making, good health helps us accomplish them. At Banner Health, we're here to provide more than health care. Whatever you're planning, wherever you're going, we're here to help you get there. Banner Health. Exhale.