MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Jennifer Fergate
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Ada Haradine was a quiet woman living in a quiet neighborhood, the kind of neighborhood where you'd think nothing could go wrong. But on May 8th, 1985, Ada wasn't where she was supposed to be. She had changed her plans to be with her son for a Mother's Day Mass. Later that day, around 3:10, she was seen working in her yard. But by 3:20, she was gone. Three years later, her body was discovered less than 12 miles away in a wooded area.

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And I'm Britt.

And the story I have for you today is one that we've gotten a lot of requests to cover over the years. And actually, Britt, we briefly touched on it when we did a recap of Netflix's Unsolved Mysteries, like the very, I think, first season for our fan club listeners. And while so many of you joined our free summer promo, welcome. Hope you're loving it.

The majority of our listeners aren't in the app. So you guys support us by listening to our ads, which, reminder, from all of your favorite podcasts, please listen to the ads. It is how we pay our staff. It's how we keep the lights on, do all of our advocacy work.

And God bless all of you who have been with us since the beginning when me and Britt were just doing this out of our spare rooms. But it is not just you and me running to the bank with our advertising checks. Like Audiochuck is a whole network of podcasts. I built a team of over 65 people here in Indianapolis, editors, reporters. We have people on the business side so we can do more touring and video. We're actually on the hunt for a new CEO, if you know anyone, to replace me so I can focus on stories like these because

I want to get lost in the content. And this episode is the perfect example. One day, I think I'm covering a story that's going to be like a quick 30-minute episode. And the next, I'm emailing with a Norwegian reporter that I tracked down asking him all the questions that I know he has deep in his brain, even if they're off the record, because I know it's going to help me tell this story, help you understand this story, and help identify this woman who has gone unidentified for decades and

and whose death has truly earned the title of this episode because it is one of the most mysterious deaths we have ever talked about. This is the story of someone they call Jennifer Furgate.

It's just after 7.30 p.m. on Saturday, June 3rd, 1995, when a receptionist at the Oslo Plaza Hotel in Norway realizes that the guest in room 2805 hasn't paid for their three-night stay. There's not even a credit card on file or anything. So she goes to send a message to the room through the TV, saying basically like, hey, you need to contact the reception, cashier, whatever. And when she does, she notices that two other messages have already been sent.

So she fires another one off anyway. And it sounds like this message was acknowledged using the TV remote. You can click, like, OK. But still, no one comes down. And it starts to feel like something is up, especially because this receptionist knows that housekeeping hasn't cleaned that room since Thursday. It's Saturday now. And they hadn't because the Do Not Disturb sign was on the door. And from what I remember, this hotel is, like,

Kind of a high-end hotel. The fact that someone could even check into this hotel without a credit card is kind of odd.

It's very odd. And I don't think I've ever been to a hotel that doesn't hold some form of payment. Granted, I wasn't running around with a credit card in 1995. But I mean, even now, like if you're paying cash when you check out, you still have to like have something on file. And this was actually one of the things I asked Lars Christian Wegner. He is the Norwegian reporter that I reached out to. And I would venture to say the one person on this platter

planet who knows this case the best. In fact, he actually gave me a little bit of a warning. He said that because of the language barrier, sometimes little things here and there have gotten mistranslated or misinterpreted. And his reporting is really the only one that can be trusted. He's the only person who's really looked into this. And legit, that's not him being braggy. It is so true.

What he's done on this case is incredible, and I am a thousand percent confident that we wouldn't even know about this case if it weren't for him. So all of that to say, he told me that, yes, this is weird. It is like a five-star hotel, but he chalks it all up to the place being busy at the time. And he says, listen, bigger mistakes have been made. So, okay, fine.

The receptionist basically decides to call security. And at 7.50, a security guard goes up to the room and knocks on the door. And then a second later, boom, a gunshot rings out from inside the room. And this security guard who's hearing this, this is like a 25-year-old part-time guy. Like he is not a trained police officer. So he does the smart thing and books it back to the security center to get help.

And the hotel security team ends up calling police. And then within like 15 minutes, the head of security goes back upstairs to the room to investigate. When he gets there, he knocks on the door, but there's nothing. He tries to get in, I assume using their universal key. And in doing so, he realizes that the door is double locked from the inside. Now, being part of the security team, he can bypass this, but other hotel employees wouldn't have been able to.

So whoever was inside didn't want anyone getting in.

According to an article in Verden's Gang by Lars Christian Wegner, when the security guy pushes the door open, he notices a sharp smell. Accurate is the word that he used to describe it. Gunpowder would have a smell like that. And right away, he sees a fully clothed young woman with short, dark hair on the bed lying in an awkward position, her feet dangling over the side.

He's pretty sure she's dead, so the dude is not taking another step inside. He shuts the door to wait for police, and he waits right there in the hallway, making sure that no one goes in or out of that room.

When police do finally get there, which I believe is like an hour-ish, maybe 50 minutes after that gunshot first rang out, what they see is a similar scene as first described. The woman is laying on the bed, but more details become clear. This woman appears to be dressed in all black, almost looking like she was about to go out. I mean, high heels on and everything. ♪

She has a gunshot wound to her head. There is blood everywhere. I mean, it's on the walls, the ceiling, the nightstand, even everything on the whole bedside table. And when he looks at the woman specifically, her right hand rests on her chest holding a 9mm pistol. But how she holds this gun is a little odd, if you remember. Yeah, it's strange.

super awkward. Like, she has her thumb on the trigger as opposed to, like, her pointer finger. So it's not how you would expect her to hold this gun, or at least not how I expected it. And I know they end up finding a second bullet hole in the pillow, right? In the pillow, yeah. Which they assume was made by the woman, maybe even some kind of, like,

test shot or something? Yeah, and I think they think that mostly because there's no sign of a struggle or honestly even any evidence that anyone else was staying in that room or had been in that room. I mean, both of the key cards are there. And sure, a window is ajar, but the room is on the 28th floor. So unless Spider-Man climbed into the room with a gun...

Remember, the door was double locked, like all signs are pointing to someone alone who took their own life. And when they look around the rest of the room, it's pretty tidy and unremarkable. But they do notice a newspaper in a plastic bag on the desk. And each guest gets one of these at their doors every morning. But oddly, this one has a different room number on it.

So it's unclear if it was just delivered to the wrong room, if maybe this woman grabbed it from another door. I don't know. Or maybe someone else brought it in. That too, yeah.

Now, they also see a plate of unfinished food on a small table. In the bathroom, there's a used towel on the floor, and one of those, like, little soap shampoo bottles is open. So there's an indication that someone recently used, like, the tub shower. And they also find an ironing board, which apparently wasn't standard for the room. I guess they have, like, men's rooms and women's rooms set up. It's, like, different than anything we have here in the U.S., but...

what they're thinking is basically like for this room to have this ironing board, it had to have been requested at some point. It's not weird. It's just like something that they take note of. In fact, it's actually what they're not finding that's the weird part. Managing finances can feel complicated and time consuming, right? But it

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There is zero identification in the room. No driver's license, no credit cards, no purse, no wallet, and no passport. How was she planning to pay for the room at all if she didn't have those at some point? Exactly. And it's not just this big stuff that they're not finding. It's the little stuff too, like a toothbrush, a hairbrush, makeup. Like there's zero toiletries.

The only thing they find like that is a bottle of men's cologne, but only her prints are on it. So what this even means, they don't know. And they did find her prints on a few other things too, like a glass and this bag of chips in the room. But not much else, which is kind of weird when you think about how many days she or like whoever had been checked in. And we know housekeeping hasn't come in in the last like 24 to 48 hours. So...

I don't know. I don't know if these are the only things that got mentioned or if truly there were like no prints anywhere else or if there's another option, which I think there might be and we'll get to a little bit later. Now, the only unknown print that they find is on the newspaper bag. But what that means as well, if anything, remains to be seen. My best guess would be it was whoever put it in front of the doors that morning.

Yeah, mine too. That's kind of what I would think. I mean, unless they're walking around. This is a five-star hotel, like walking around with like white glove service. But TBD. Now, a travel bag is found, but it's not like a suitcase. It's just this little tote bag that I've seen pictures of. We'll put some in the blog post.

And there are some clothes in there, but this is where the mystery just deepens because all of the labels have been cut out except for one on a woman's blazer. Okay, and this is what I have not been able to get out of my head since watching this episode initially. There weren't any bottoms to the clothes. No pants, no skirts, not even like a change of undies. It makes no sense. And even more than that, the thing that stuck out to me is that everything seemed...

I think fancy, like lace bras, even two that were almost like a lace corset and then like thigh-high black stockings. And like what's the point of the ironing board if there aren't any clothes to iron? Right. I mean, all she had were a pair of black silky shorts and that's it. And listen, it's been a decade, maybe in my 20s, I didn't rely so much on my comfort bra. But for some reason, like what she had in that bag really stuck out to me.

And things only get stranger when they find a briefcase, but the only thing in the briefcase is 25 rounds of ammo. Which just doesn't make sense because the thing that always gets pointed out with this is, okay, if this was someone who came here with the intention of taking their own life, you need, what, one bullet? Two if you want to do a test shot? I mean,

tops, you fill the chamber or magazine in your gun, but you don't need a freaking suitcase full of ammo. It makes no sense. But even still, I mean, these things don't preclude this from being a suicide. And if you apply Occam's razor, maybe the simplest solution is the most likely. What they really need to do is identify this woman. And that might help make sense of things.

So in the early morning hours of June 4th, while the woman's body is removed from the scene, investigators set off to figure out who this woman is and get some answers. The hotel tells them that the woman in the room, according to their records, is Jennifer Fairgate.

However, on the registration from the hotel, she spelled the last name a little differently. So instead of Fair, F-A-I-R, she spelled Fergate, F-E-R-gate. Was there ever any explanation on the discrepancy in her name?

It sounds like a pretty simple one because in another article, Lars, along with Julian Weiss, wrote that the woman that we now know as Jennifer reserved the room by phone. So it sounds like the hotel employee just kind of wrote the last name by ear instead of asking how to spell it. So like nothing super suspicious there. But there were other things with this reservation that were suspicious to police.

First, when Jennifer checked into the hotel on Wednesday, May 31st, a little after 10.40 p.m., clearly the hotel did not put a credit card on file because, as we touched on earlier, they have to reach out for payment days later. Also weird that no proof of identification was taken. I mean, there's even a box on the check-in form where a passport number is supposed to go, but nothing was put there.

Now, at least one employee mentions that this was like peak hours. There was this long line of guests. So if you're in the same camp as Lars when I talked to him, maybe someone just screwed up. But if that's the case, then they screwed up twice. And that is what is so hard for me to just write off. Because mid-stay, Jennifer changes her reservation.

She comes down to the front desk on Friday morning, which was the day she was supposed to check out. And she ends up extending her room until Sunday. And somehow they still don't get payment from her. They even give her two new room keys.

Wait, does she have four keys now? Because that would mean the two keys found in her room aren't really as significant as we thought. I literally asked Lars this exact question. He said that she turned in the old key when she got the two new ones. Okay. So this is weird stuff. But this next thing is the real kicker. You see, even before she checked in, like just a couple of days before,

Jennifer called the hotel and changed something about the reservation. And this small change that she made becomes one of the biggest mysteries in this case. It seems originally the reservation was for just Jennifer. But a couple of days before she was due to check in, she calls the hotel and changes it. Now it will be for Jennifer and Lois Fairgate.

No big deal. I mean, certainly wouldn't have been weird at the time. Except this freaking other person, like this dude is a straight up man of mystery. One of the front desk people believes that they saw a man with Jennifer at some point during her stay.

They thought it was either when she first checked in or at a later point when she was like exchanging currency kind of thing. But their memories are fuzzy on that. Lars did actually this short documentary about the case and he has them recreate what they remember so you can kind of get a sense of it. But they don't have anything totally concrete. It's like, I think he was standing about here, like maybe. But like they didn't even look directly at him. He wasn't the one checking in, whatever. So there are no real tangible details beyond that.

And the most important thing right now is this guy is nowhere to be found, if he existed at all. Why would she take the time to add him to the reservation if he wasn't real? I know. I mean, OK, here. I know conspiracies tend to be squarely in your lane, but it all feels like too much in this one, right? Like, oh, we didn't actually take payment or any ID. Yeah.

Oh, we don't know for sure if she was with someone. Oh, by the way, there were security cameras, but no one got the footage. Britt, don't get me started on the freaking footage. So, but actually do because I have to talk about it. There was no security footage collected. None. And make no mistake, there were for sure cameras. Just no one got the footage collected.

And again, I say, something is up. I know. And this is the clencher for me in all of this. Like, I asked Lars about this specifically because it seems like such an intentional oversight. But in talking to him, he reminds me a lot of Delia. Like, I'm like, conspiracy, conspiracy. And they're like, they just counter with incompetence. Incompetence, incompetence. Yeah. So he replied to me, quote,

A reasonable theory is that the police was so convinced this was a suicide that they thought there was no need for any video footage, end quote. Okay, but then they just don't care to find this other guy or confirm there even was another person?

Like, you're right there in the hotel already. Just look. I know. I can't change my mind on this one. This is the thing that's too weird. But because we don't have this, we just have maybe fuzzy memories and this name written down, we don't have any physical proof of Lois that we know of. And surprise, surprise, the very little information Jennifer did put down just leads to more questions.

On the check-in form, she wrote an address in Verlaine, Belgium, and a phone number. A company called Service in Belgium is also listed as her place of employment. And side note, more red flags here because she would have had to have a passport if she came to Oslo from Belgium. Most certainly. And I think she did have a passport.

I think the reason there's no documentation of it anywhere might be because the passport wasn't for Jennifer Furgate. Because the Oslo police find out when they reach out to Belgian authorities, Jennifer Furgate doesn't exist.

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The street address she gave the hotel isn't real, although the town of Berlin is. That phone number she gave is bogus, too. The area code does at least appear to be from Belgium, so there's that. But Belgian police can't find any evidence of a Jennifer Fergate or a Lois, for that matter. And that company that she says she works for, Service,

That doesn't exist either. Neither do two Belgian phone numbers that Jennifer called from her room when she was at the hotel. So I guess whoever she was trying to call while she was staying there, she didn't have the right number? Okay, I'm just going to lean fully into this, let myself go into the conspiracy. Okay.

Did these numbers always not exist or just now? Like, how long were these phone calls that she made? Could the number have been disconnected, discontinued? I love where your head's at. It's like we are best friends or something because I asked all of these things. Lars reported in his article that the two numbers only differed by one digit.

So either she couldn't remember the number that she was calling or it truly was wrong.

But even Interpol said that these numbers just didn't exist. What I like, I don't know, I kind of spiral and we can do a little more spiraling later. But like they just differ by one number. So she's clearly like. I was literally just thinking, like, can we just dial all the numbers around those numbers? Right. I mean, there's like only 10. If they were off by one digit, can we just go up and down and call these numbers? And don't worry, like we get Lars is on the same page, too. And I'll get there a little bit later.

And even Interpol says they just don't exist. So I actually drilled into this. I asked Lars. I said, the two numbers that Jennifer called, they didn't work.

Can you tell me if they were never working numbers? Or is it possible that one or more had been working at a time that she called? Because that's the place I kept going to is like, you know, you didn't dial. There's only 10 other options, right? If you're just off by one number, you didn't dial all of them. So did the second one work? So were they always not working? Or by the time police were checking on them? Did they stop working? Exactly. And he said...

They checked the numbers just a couple of days after she died. So it's not very likely, he didn't emphasize that, that is me, it's not very likely that the numbers were disconnected that quickly. So I'll revisit this a little bit later. But for now, police just assume these were wrong numbers.

But even if she was wrong about the numbers, they do believe that she had to have had some connection to Belgium because even the postal code structure and area codes that she used to check in were like from Belgium. Like she

She had to have been familiar enough with that place. Right. But the one thing is, hotel employees tell police that Jennifer spoke both English and German. So, I mean, who really knows? All police know at this point is that she registered under a false name with misleading or incorrect information. But all is not lost because they do have her fingerprints. So they turn to Interpol for help trying to identify her.

And while Interpol gets to work, the police continue interviewing employees because Interpol

Clearly something is not adding up here. But by all means, don't look at that security footage. Never mind with that. I know. I mean, I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline about how quick all this is happening, but it does feel like it's all happening like in the same day. And I actually hate playing this role. Like this is way less fun to be like incompetence. I like conspiracy more. But just to say like if this isn't Shady Boots business, the one explanation I can think of is that

Maybe they aren't moving super quickly. It may be some of the suspicious stuff that they're finding out is like too late. I don't know how long they actually keep the footage. Maybe there's been too much time that's lapsed.

I don't know. We've got days between when she's checking in. I don't know. But they knew there was a missing dude day one. Britt, I'm trying to be cool here. So they don't get the video footage, but they do interview a woman who cleaned Jennifer's room while she was out just before 1 p.m. on June 1st.

So Jennifer is like coming and going, right? She's not just holed up in this room the whole stay. Right. How much she left is a little TBD and what she did when she left, no one seems to know. But she is out and about at some point on the first when they go clean this room. So the first would be the day after Jennifer would have checked in.

So housekeeping came while she's out, and one of them tells police that they noticed a pair of shoes under one of those little baggage shelves in the room while they were waiting for a co-worker to finish cleaning the bathroom. And this detail is important to police because the only shoes found in Jennifer's room were the ones that I mentioned earlier that she was wearing when she died, which, by the way, also had the labels removed.

So while housekeeping is there and she's out and about, she's either roaming the streets without shoes or things are missing. Likely missing because when Lars showed this witness a photo of the shoes Jennifer was found in, which were black heels, she's like, no, no, no, those are not what I saw.

She remembered looking at the shoes in the room and thinking that she wanted some for herself, and she said the ones that she remembered were more colorful. And she even noted a brand because she'd never heard of them before. But of course, now she can't remember what that brand was.

But there was something else she told police that stood out. When Jennifer had changed her reservation to be for two people, that triggered housekeeping to prepare the room for two, which means that there was an extra pillow, there was a second duvet put in the room. But when the woman cleaning the room is there on that Thursday, it didn't appear to her that either of those extra items had been used. According to one of the articles in Verdant's Gang, the extra duvet had been folded up and then put aside.

So this woman just kind of like picked the duvet up and put it in the closet. And then she goes on to make the bed up for just like one person since clearly the other stuff isn't being used. But here's where it gets interesting. When Jennifer was found, both of those duvets were found on the bed side by side, almost like someone might have been in the bed with her. Did housekeeping say they ever brought her the ironing board? Because I kind of have a thought here. What's that? Well, if they have like

men's versus women's rooms. And we know they were prepping the room for two with the duvets. Maybe they, like, pre-anticipated the guy and just put the ironing board in there? I'm not sure if that matters or means anything, but it's just something I thought about. I don't think they ever found anyone who said that they brought it to her, like, after a specific request.

But I also don't know if they found anyone who said that they put it in the room either. It ends up being just this like weird fact. And I don't want to get too hung up on it because they also say that the men's room had a pant press. And again, this is the language barrier thing. I don't know if that's the same as an ironing board. It could be one of these like lost in cultural translation things. So I just don't want to get too distracted by it because there are plenty of other things for us to get lost in.

Like the person police talked to who appears to be the last person to see Jennifer alive. The day before she died, which would have been Friday the 2nd, Jennifer had ordered room service at around 8.06 p.m. and it gets delivered at 8.23 p.m. Although it does sound like room service actually went to the wrong room at first.

They were knocking on room 2804, which was across the hall, before realizing their mistake, that Jennifer was in 2805. So according to that Verdon's Gang article, the woman who brought Jennifer her order said that she was wearing like a suit or some kind of skirt. We're talking about Jennifer here. She's wearing a skirt down to her knees. Again, clothing not found in the room by police. And she tells police that the room looked completely untouched.

Mind you, housekeeping had not come on Friday. They were last there the day before on Thursday. By the time they were making their rounds on Friday, her do not disturb sign was hung.

And this woman says that, you know, she's dropping off the food. She actually got the impression that maybe Jennifer was a flight attendant just because of like her clothing and whatever. And then she remembers getting a really large tip from Jennifer, which is important to me because that tells me she does have money. It's not like she's just staying there without any of that stuff. You know what I mean? And like can't pay for her room. Right.

Now, police also go and talk to some other guests staying on the same floor as Jennifer, but it doesn't sound like anything remarkable is gleaned from this.

A newlywed couple whose room was diagonally across from Jennifer's tells police that they didn't hear or see anything. Another woman on the floor tells them about a couple that had caught her attention, but like even who that couple was and what caught her attention about them is like pretty unclear. I mean, maybe it was Jennifer and Mystery Man? Maybe, but no one can seem to say.

Hmm, the security footage could have. They still don't check that. Instead, it seems like they've heard enough. Despite all the weirdness, police seem to be confident that Jennifer took her own life. So much so that the mattress and all of the bedding were just tossed in the early hours of the investigation, according to at least one source.

This just seems like bad police work. Like, at least give it a day or two. You don't know who this woman really is. You don't know if there ever was a guy, if he's real or not. There's like a 15-minute window where the room was left completely unattended by security. Someone could have slipped out. I don't know. I mean, that bedding could hold evidence of some kind of foul play. Or even evidence of who Lois is. That's the thing that I cannot wrap my head around because even—

even if this was a suicide, how can you say it doesn't matter if there was another person with her? Someone especially who seems to have gone to great lengths to make sure that they're never identified. But don't worry. If they were trying to write it all off, that becomes just a bit harder after her autopsy is done.

As well covered as this story is, thanks to Lars Christian Wegner, there are some important details about this autopsy that got a little fuzzy. But I will tell you what's been reported and what information I got out of Lars when I exchanged emails with him. So we already know that she most likely died of a gunshot wound to the head.

But whether that was self-inflicted or not starts to come into question. Because for one, the hand in which Jennifer was holding the gun is clean. Like, mmm.

No blood on it, despite, as I mentioned earlier, most of the area around where her body was found was covered in blood. Now, granted, like, it's blowback, so most of the blood is behind her. But, I mean, her hand is pristine. Okay, that's what I was going to say. This is what stuck with me from that Unsolved Mysteries episode. They show a picture of her hand. Like you said, it is pristine.

pristine. No blood, no soot from firing the gun. And they even show a comparison picture of what it should look like. And oh, it's I mean, it's night and day. Yeah. And then the test done on her hands don't find any sign of gunshot residue, which it feels like a huge red flag. But they do say that there could be some error in that testing, like it's not an exact science.

And we only have the photo to work off of that's online. So, I mean, to me, at first it kind of looked like there was blood on the gun, which I was like, oh, my God, sound all the alarms. How's there blood on the gun and not her hand? Thank God I double checked. I asked Lars specifically if the gun had blood on it and he said no. So maybe it's not so weird that there was no blood on it.

But still... But the comparison picture. I was going to say, still to your point, the picture they show for comparison of someone who has fired a similar gun in a suicide is night and day. Now, here's what else we know. There is no trace of alcohol in her system. Doesn't sound like they tested for drugs. And there are no other apparent injuries or mention of any kind of defensive wounds.

Now, nothing was reported about a sexual assault exam. So I asked Lars more broadly if the autopsy showed any sign of a recent sexual encounter. And in doing so, I was kind of thinking more about those like lingerie type items that were found in her bag. But he told me, no, they didn't find any evidence of a recent sexual encounter.

They were able to tell that she had some dental work that was done that you could only find either in the States or like a few European countries such as the Netherlands, Switzerland, or Germany. And remember, we know from check-in staff that she spoke English and German, so that might at least start to narrow it. And the medical examiner determines that Jennifer is around 30 years old, plus or minus five years. And this is a contradiction to what she put on her hotel registration.

The birth date that she listed would have made her only 21. Okay, but we also know that literally everything she wrote down on that was a lie. Yeah, right. So it's just another thing that she is doing to conceal her real identity to me. Right. Now, the real kicker of this autopsy is her stomach contents. The medical examiner discovers undigested food in her stomach.

Specifically, bits of sausage, according to Lars' article, which is what she had on her room service plate that they found in her room, what got delivered to her room. And that room service is the only food that the hotel has record of her getting. So it seems like it should be that.

But if it is that food, something doesn't add up because that food was delivered by room service almost 24 hours before that gunshot went off and she was found dead. And if Jennifer ate the food when it was brought to her room, it should have been digested by now. Unless she died earlier, closer to when the food came. Well, either that or she waited like a full day to eat her food, which...

I mean, that's strange. I guess it's not entirely out of the realm of possibilities. Well, the part I found so strange, too, was that in the picture that's been shared of her room service tray, there's still a decent amount of food on the plate. It's almost like she was in the middle of eating when something happened. Or she didn't finish. I mean, I'll say that I have gotten bad room service, even from, like, the fanciest of hotels. I'm not going to name names, but one of the nicest hotels in New York has possibly the worst room service pizza ever.

I got it. I took one bite and I was done. Not worth it. But like other parts of her plate, I mean, they look touch to me. There's like sauce smeared everywhere. It looks dug into. There's garnishes. Like we've got, I mean, we've got the picture. People can look for themselves. I'm not familiar with Norwegian food, so I'm not sure if sausages usually come with like round slices of onion and lettuce, but there's no bun or anything.

I kind of wonder if there's something else that was on here. Not reported, but don't worry. I asked. I said, I asked Lars, do you know what the room service order was? Because I said, I can see from the picture what's left on her plate, which for people who can't see right this moment, I mean, it's most of the sausage. So I was wondering kind of like you what the full order was. Like, I don't know. But anyways, he told me that the order was bratwurst with potato salad. Quote, one of a handful of standard dishes.

So it doesn't sound like there was other food on that plate. Like, it's not like she ate before. I don't know. Again, I don't know what it means other than, like, it seems like the only thing it could mean was that she waited a full day to eat any of it. Yeah. I mean, now that I know more, like, I was, like, full on the conspiracy train that, like, she was killed way earlier. And I spent a ton of time spiraling on this because people talk about this piece a lot.

Like, there is so much mystery to it. And I was kind of losing my mind for a while because I'm like, okay, this is the one part of the story that feels like it doesn't have to be a mystery. Because if she died a full day before, her body would have been in rigor, like, by the time they found her. She'd be cold. Blood in the room would be dry. Blood would be pooling. Like, there's a lot that would be going on. Yeah. Why are we not, like, talking about this piece? It seems so simple. People who walked in the room and saw her, like, was everything fresh? And...

Now we can, because I can confirm, per Lars, quote, End quote.

So she was alive in that room on Saturday, which explains hotel records that show someone was watching pay TV and removing items from the minibar between Friday and Saturday.

Well, and it's more than even just like the day leading up to her being found. I mean, right before, before the security went up, the hotel receptionist sent that reminder about paying. She said someone acknowledged it. Sure, probably Jennifer. But like the question I feel like we don't have any concrete answer to was, was she alone? Yeah.

Well, here's the thing. It does seem like Oslo police are starting to at least explore the possibility of some kind of foul play at that point. And I think for them, maybe it comes to the gun because when they take a closer look at it, this nine millimeter semi-automatic pistol, it presents a pretty big red flag. So the serial number on this gun has been removed. And apparently this wasn't just like,

filed off with a nail file. You can't do that. I mean, this was professionally done using acid. And here's the, like, interesting kicker. They find out that the gun was manufactured in none other than Belgium. So even more of a connection to that country.

And this specific type of gun was often used by the military or police, not to mention the weapon of choice for a lot of bad guys at the time. Well, and that's what stood out to me more than anything, because, like, this isn't happening in the U.S. I would think guns in Norway or Belgium, kind of hard to get a hold of, right? Which, actually, I triple confirmed this with Lars. He said, quote,

Pistols are, however, rare.

Okay, so, right, fine. Say you wanted to take your life that way. You'd probably have to go into the bad guy black market. What?

The thing that didn't make sense was the fact that it's still in her hand. I remember them describing it as heavy and powerful and that the recoil alone would have made it difficult for her to keep this gun in her hand in the way that it was found. Yeah. So if anything, it sounds like this gun should have flown across the room. Yes. Yes.

And this goes back to like what we talked about her hand being pristine. Like they expected to see something from that. I mean, instead it literally, I mean, it looks like it was just like placed there. And the weirdest part to me is that there are no fingerprints on the gun or the magazine. Although there is some conflicting information that says sometimes the surfaces and grips on guns can make it difficult to get fingerprints off of them. So, I mean, that could be the reason there are no prints there.

I guess I'm not super clear on, like, are they, like, oh, it for sure was wiped down. Oh, and there is a slight downward trajectory of Jennifer's wound. And it's not, like, an impossible angle or anything to, like, say that someone could not have done that themselves. But it is strange. Right. Like, it might be like that if someone was maybe standing over her. Maybe. So I think the wheels are starting to turn for the Oslo police. Yeah.

And they must have really started turning when they finally hear back from Interpol about her prints. But instead of some big breakthrough, Interpol is basically like, we got nothing, guys. No hit in their system. Jennifer is a ghost. And by now, Oslo police are wondering if this whole thing is not what they first thought it was.

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According to Lars' article, several experienced homicide detectives are assigned to the case to see if they can figure this thing out. And there start to become like a couple of working theories. Like, could Jennifer be part of some kind of drug ring or maybe working as sort of a high-end sex worker? I think, again, they go back to like the fancy lingerie maybe.

They even look into the possibility of her being the missing wife of an Italian mob boss. But she wasn't, by the way. And there's no evidence or connection to these theories, right? They're just throwing spaghetti at the wall? Appears so. But one of these strands of spaghetti, like, it sticks a little. I mean, it sounds plausible, even though it sounds like it's straight out of a movie.

Considering the lengths that Jennifer had gone through to hide her identity, using false names, false information, removing the labels on her clothes, the professional way the serial number was removed from her gun, police begin to wonder if Jennifer Furgate is a spy. You see, the Oslo Plaza Hotel had been known in the past to hold high-level secret talks between multiple countries.

It was frequented by heads of state and people in the intelligence community. So they start to wonder, could Jennifer be from that world? And the removing the labels thing was confusing.

common practice in the intelligence community, too. Like, that gets brought up in a lot of these who-is-this-person type of cases. Yes. I think about it in the Somerton Man one. And if you remember, Britt, in Unsolved Mysteries, they point out that something like a double-locked door could easily be manipulated by some kind of spy agency. Like, they had the technical ability to do that. And so, I mean, a lot of people do point to Jennifer's double-locked door as

as being proof that no one could have been inside her room. But these spy guys are basically like, like, no big deal. So what? We can get in and out. We can make it look like that. Like, that would not hold us back. So police wonder if she could be a spy. But if she was...

that's sure not something local police are ever going to be able to get to the bottom of. And if she's not, how do you prove that either without proving who she actually is? So I don't know if it's because they can't prove anything else, but at some point they kind of just revert back to their initial theory that Jennifer took her own life and

And they must believe it at least a little, or at least they're trying to sell it because they point to the things like the double locked door that the average person couldn't get into, the fact that there's no sign of a struggle or some kind of fight in the room. And don't forget, there is a witness, that security guard who heard the single gunshot, but no movement in the room afterward. And there's something else.

Through the hotel's digital locking system, they can see that Jennifer barely went in and out of her room throughout her stay. So to them, they say this is an indication of someone maybe preparing for the end. What was the deal with the other bullet, though? There were two shots. Well, as mentioned earlier, I mean, police thought that that basically was like a test shot that was fired through the pillow. So in theory, she first test the gun out before using it on herself.

And one idea is that the pillow was used to like muffle the sound of that test shot. So maybe that one wouldn't have been as audible. But I don't really buy that because, I mean, I even asked Lars like some questions about this. And he said, quote, the walls and doors had good soundproofing, but still a gunshot would be audible, end quote. So why or how no one heard this second shot is odd to me.

But it sounds like both bullets are found in or under the mattress, and they close their case. Now, they do keep Jennifer's body for roughly a year, hoping that someone out there somewhere would identify her, but that never happens. And so in 1996, they finally bury her when no one comes forward. Two months after that burial, all of Jennifer's clothes are tossed.

A watch, a ring, and an earring that belonged to her or sold at auction. And they do at least keep one important thing, that gun. But it sounds like they did that more for educational purposes to use as an example of a weapon where a serial number was removed. But, you know, this is not where the story ends. I mean, for 20 years it was where the story ends. Then our good old friend Lars showed up.

So back in 1996, Lars Christian Wegner wrote a series of stories about missing persons and unidentified bodies in Norway. And at the time, Jennifer was one of them. And over the years, he kept coming back to her story. So at some point, he goes to the assistant chief of police and suggests that they should take another crack at identifying Jennifer all these years later.

And sounds like they agree. So in the fall of 2016, Jennifer's body is exhumed because a blood sample that had been taken initially just got tossed, like everything in this case. So they basically have to start over by bringing her body up in an attempt to gather DNA and collect some of her teeth.

And within weeks, it sounds like they've got an almost complete DNA profile. But she doesn't have any family to even compare it to. Correct. So it's not much use right now.

Now, they do have a database like we do here in the U.S. where family members of the missing can submit their DNA to match to unidentified people. But nothing is upcoming of that. So it appears that no one that could have been related to Jennifer had ever reported her missing, even after all of these years. Or they haven't submitted their DNA. Or option three, insufficiencies of government have mucked it up.

And this is kind of like a whole side story that I don't want to fall too deep down into. But according to Lars, in the mid-90s in Belgium, one of the places that Jennifer could have been from, they had two police authorities.

And the communication between those two was not super good. So it's possible that she could have been reported to the local police, but that police never passed that on to higher authorities. And so then maybe her name was never put in a more centralized database. Right. Now, I know that the way that missing person cases were handled in Belgium and other European countries did change, primarily because of a guy named Marc Dutroux.

This guy was a true monster. He kidnapped, tortured, and sexually abused six young girls, four of which he murdered. And it's that case that kind of, like, changed everything. But if someone had reported Jennifer missing in 1995...

It would have been under the old way of doing things, like pre-this Mark case, which might make it possible that her case just slipped through the cracks. I mean, how many times have we seen that here? But this is where we're at in 2016. They have her DNA and they can at least use it to determine one thing, that she is most likely of European descent. Not earth shattering, I know, but it's something.

And her teeth actually offer more promise of her identity. An isotope test is done on them, and they determine where Jennifer lived until like her mid-teens. And the results point to Germany, which adds up in other areas too.

Remember, I don't know if you remember this at the beginning of the episode, I told you Jennifer's blazer in the room was like one of the only things that had a tag still on it. So that and then the leather case that the ammo was found in, those can all be tracked back to German manufacturers. And Germany was also suggested as a place where she could have had that dental work done. Yeah, so baby steps are happening.

And girl, Lars is one of us. The man went high and low to dig into this any way he could. So he didn't let the DNA just stop him.

He went and looked into the numbers that Jennifer supposedly called while she was in the hotel. Those ones to, like, Belgium numbers that were said to have not existed. And what he ended up doing was he ended up getting a list of working numbers that were similar or as similar as possible to the ones that she called. And he trekked out to Belgium trying to figure out who it was on the other end that she might have tried to, like, call. Though he didn't have to, like, trek too far because...

What's so strange is like everything that she was doing was like all kind of close together. Like the fake address she used, the phone numbers, like it was all kind of centralized in this like tiny area. And so they don't get anything. They don't find anyone who knew her, but they can't shake this feeling that she knew the area. But they also don't get any farther.

So Lars also spends some time keying in on a watch that Jennifer was wearing when she died. Remember, it got thrown out, but they have pictures, you know, some stuff like notes about it. And he's hoping that he can trace it to a manufacturer and maybe ID her that way.

Now, the long and the short of it is that the watch was most likely manufactured in Japan in January of 1992. But it's actually the battery that might offer a more important clue. There was an inscription on the battery that read W395. And when Lars first published this detail, he thought that the W could just be some watchmaker's initial. Maybe that the 3 stood for the month of March and 95 stood for the year that the battery was replaced.

But this gets published and people started reaching out to him and pointing out that the W could stand for the word Wexen, which, forgive my pronunciation, but in German meant to switch or to change or replace. Oh. Yeah. So yet again, this is another possible connection of Jennifer to the country of Germany. If it's not Germany, it's Belgium.

So if it wasn't obvious before, clearly these two countries have something to do with all of this. Now, while he's doing all of this legwork, police are re-looking at the items in their possession that might lead to a break. Now, most of it was tossed, womp womp. But they have two things that could help. First, if you remember way back at the beginning of this, there was an unknown print found on that plastic newspaper bag that was in Jennifer's room. Creep.

Unknown. Did they not check this print back in the 90s? Apparently not, because they finally sent the print off to Interpol in 2017. Oh my god. But here's where we all get so frustrated. It's unclear what happens to this. I don't know. Did they get a hit? Did they not get a hit? I'm assuming no, because we haven't heard anything. Did they get a hit and we don't have clearance to know about it because she was in a spy network? I love this role reversal.

And by the way, if you remember, this bag had the wrong room number on it. The bag actually said 2816. Jennifer was 2805. Oh. I assumed it was like one room over or something. I didn't realize it was that far. And, you know, one thought at the time was maybe it was delivered to the wrong room. Fine. Okay. But here's the thing. Police never seemed to figure out who was staying in room 2816. Or if they did, that's not public knowledge. Which

Which seems like something you would want to, like, figure out. I don't know. Yeah. And unfortunately, at this point, the hotel's records that would have had that information were lost. So that adds even more intrigue around this little newspaper bag. So that doesn't lead anywhere. And while relooking at all of this evidence, our reporter-turned-Detective Lars is continuing to turn over some stones of his own.

He's able to track down some of the hotel employees and even guests that were staying on Jennifer's floor the night that she died, some that police never bothered to talk to. So in the spring of 2017, he talks to the woman who delivered Jennifer her room service. And she tells Lars a piece of information that she hadn't told police about at the time. She said that there was a small roller suitcase in the room when she delivered the food.

And this is something that police never found in their initial search. Right. So it was actually this suitcase, plus the way she said Jennifer was dressed in that like suit, skirt, whatever. She said all of that is what made her think that she could have been a flight attendant. But why not just say that then? I know she said they were like bombarding her with questions. So, I mean, I don't think she was hiding. I just don't think she was loving her interview with police at the time.

And listen, some people say it's possible that Jennifer packed up some of her stuff in that suitcase and dumped it before her death or maybe donated it knowing what she was planning to do, knowing that she wouldn't need it. Okay, but why some stuff and not others? And why remove all the labels for that? Maybe some stuff because like the stuff she kept was like the more intimate items that you wouldn't just like send to Goodwill. The labels, I cannot explain. I don't know.

I don't know that that's going to ever get explained until we know who she is. But let me tell you about the other people he interviews. So, because there's more stuff that comes out. So, Lars interviews a Swiss couple who were in the room next to Jennifer's. And it sounds like the room on the other side of Jennifer was empty. So, these two were the only people with a directly adjacent room. Yet, somehow they were never interviewed by police.

How is that even possible? I know. The good news is it doesn't sound like they've been sitting on any critical piece of information all these years. They don't even remember seeing Jennifer. And they said they were out to dinner on Saturday night when everything went down. When they got back, they saw crime scene tape, like, the next morning. But they didn't even know what happened until a few days later when they saw newspaper articles about it. So, I mean, they know that, like, something happened in the room, but they don't even know at the time. So, like, they were there. You know, they could have been interviewed. I mean...

Ashley, all my money is on Mr. F. Ah, the mysterious Mr. F. Do you want to tell him about Mr. F? I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with Mr. F. Okay, so I don't know his real name because Lars is the one who tracked this guy down somehow. And he's the one who calls this guy Mr. F.

He finds out that this guy was staying in the room directly across from Jennifer in room 2804, 2804. Yeah, which is the room that the room service— I was just about to say. I know, sorry. I like taking over. I'm like so excited. This is the room that the room service was accidentally taken to when it was first on its way to be delivered at Jennifer's, right? Yes, yes.

And at first, it's not super weird that the police didn't talk to him because he checked out the morning of, if I'm remembering correctly, like before the gunshot, before Jennifer was found. Right. He checked out on Saturday morning and she is, they hear the shot and she's found on Saturday night. So I understand, like, to your point, why they don't go tracking this guy down. He's already out of the hotel. In theory, he was gone long before. Right, right, right. Except...

Something's up with that story. When Lars tracks him down, literally at his door because this guy wouldn't respond to any other kind of communication, you know, he's expecting him to not even really know what he's talking about. This is a long shot, but maybe he heard something before he checked out. I mean, Friday is the last confirmed sighting of Jennifer.

But Lars gets the shock of his life when Mr. F knows exactly what he's talking about. Says that someone at the front desk told him about the woman who died on his floor. Which would be impossible if Jennifer died almost 12 hours later.

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Mr. F told Lars that he was positive he checked out on Saturday morning, not Sunday.

If he had checked out Sunday, then his story of being told about Jennifer's death would make sense. Yeah. But that's not what happened. And it sounds like Lars had access to this guy's checkout form and could confirm he had the correct date and he only stayed one night, just Friday to Saturday. So if this is true, that means either A, someone at the hotel knew about Jennifer's death before anyone else, or B,

Mr. F is lying or misremembering? Yeah, I don't know. To your point about misremembering, is it possible that he saw news about this at some point and like pieced it together? You know, the human memory is wonky. Or is it possible like he's trying to make an excuse about why he knows this when Lars shows up? You know what I mean? I don't know.

I guess. Another interesting side note to this. So Mr. F, it turns out, is from the French speaking part of, drumroll please, none other than Belgium. And I guess the French part is how Lars came up with the nickname Mr. F, like Mr. French. Yeah.

I thought for the longest time that it was Mr. Fergate, but no, no, no, no, like Mr. French. So I don't want to put words in Lars' mouth. Did the police ever end up interviewing this guy after Lars found him? No, so it doesn't sound like it. And Lars, like you said, didn't just call this guy up for a nice chat. Like he had to hunt him down for an interview. And then after they talk, Lars isn't able to get a hold of this guy again. He basically just starts ghosting him.

And I don't think he, like, goes, like, vanishes or anything. I just think he's not participating anymore. So did Jennifer encounter Mr. F? Were they planning to meet? I don't know. But I do think she planned to go somewhere or see someone. And here's why. As part of his reinvestigation, Lars pieces something together police never had before.

And he kind of maps out Jennifer's stay at the hotel using key card data and witness accounts. And it brings to light something that could be significant. So we know Jennifer arrived at the hotel on Wednesday the 31st. The key card data shows that Jennifer first enters her room at 10.44 p.m.

Now, it's important to note that the key card data registers when you use the key to enter the room. But there is no log about when the door is open from the inside, like to leave or to let someone in, stuff like that. Okay. Basically, anytime it's opened without using the key.

So she's in at 10.44 p.m. Then at 12.21 a.m., which now makes it Thursday, June 1st, her key is used again to enter the room. And then the key gets used again at 8.34 a.m. So she's kind of in and out that first night. If it is just her, yes, she has to be. So the key card gets used Thursday at 8.34 a.m.

Then we know she has to leave at some point between then and like 1245-1 because between 1244 and 1250, that's when housekeeping is coming in and out of the room. And according to them, the room is empty at that point. No Jennifer. So this is where things get interesting. The next time Jennifer enters her room, per that key card data, is on Friday, June 2nd at 8.50 a.m.

According to Lars, there appears to be a 20, maybe even 24-hour gap where Jennifer isn't in her room. So now that she's back, it's Friday. She makes the decision to extend her stay...

So she must leave the room between 8.50 and 11 because by 11, she has extended the reservation, again, without payment or ID. And then a little after 11, she uses her new key card to go into the room. And that's the last time her key card is used. We know that she's in her room at 8.23 when room service comes. Then, less than 24 hours later on Saturday is when everything kicks off and she's found dead.

So looking at this timeline,

Like, where was she? Where was she going? Who was she with? What was she doing? Like, why was she gone for, again, 20, 24 hours? And I, like, to me, it's, like, a little hard to tell. I mean, Lars feels pretty confident in the 20, 24 hours, but I'm like, you can't tell when someone, like, leaves the room. But she's, either way, she's spending a decent amount of time outside of her room. Maybe she's sitting in the lobby, having a drink, watching.

We don't know because we don't have security footage. You know what I mean? And right. And I asked him, I was like, did they talk to other businesses, like look for other? And why would they look for other security footage if they didn't get the hotels? But he's like, no, they didn't do any of that because they thought it was a suicide.

So in March 2018, more testing is done on Jennifer's teeth and they're able to like hone in a little more on her age. They determined that she was 24 years old, so a little older than what she put on the hotel registration, but younger than what the initial autopsy said. But even this doesn't help identify Jennifer either, leaving us with so many unanswered questions.

Like, who the hell is Lois? Are they a real person? Was this whole thing an elaborate murder plot or an execution by some intelligence service? Or was this truly just the most tragic of suicides where the person never wanted to be known? Considering they have Jennifer's DNA, has there been an attempt to do some kind of genetic genealogy? They can't. So Lars talks about this in his article, and I confirmed with him when I spoke with him,

In Norway, it's not allowed. They're, like, wrestling with, like, the ethics of it and, like, the privacy of it. And I was like, can you just, like, take the DNA to another country and figure it out? Well, what if I had the DNA? Exactly. And he's like, no, like, it really applies. It doesn't even matter where she's from. They say it applies, like, where she died. Because it happened there in Norway. It's stuck in Norway. I know. I wish I had more, but, like, this is where it ends. And I...

I have so many questions still. I don't know, like, if you now walked away with any theories. I mean...

I just have more questions. I almost don't even have theories, you know? Like, so many things are still just blanks. Just gaps in information or thoughts. If she did take her own life, I mean, there's part of me that understands, like, oh, maybe she, like, specifically avoided payment. At first, I was thinking, A, because she didn't have it. But then that, to me, doesn't make sense about the big tip that she gave. Unless... But the big tip also, like, folds into, like, why not just give your money away? Yeah.

True. And maybe she's like, I'm just going to go all out at a five-star hotel even though I can't afford it. It also makes me wonder, I mean, if this is a suicide, she didn't want people to know who she was. And so maybe she specifically avoided using credit cards because otherwise it'd be really easy for someone to trace where she ended up. I like, again, maybe it's just me. I tend to just get so conspiratorial. No, really? I know. But like, truly, if you look at this spy thing,

Is that why no one heard a second shot? Like, they had a silencer. Maybe the gun that they found wasn't actually even the one that was used to kill her. I mean, maybe this is why her identity was wiped. I mean, depending on who this is that's doing this, covering this up, if it is a cover-up, like, they might have a lot of pull to get her wiped from the system. Maybe there's a reason that the footage wasn't taken and all of a sudden, like, she's... To literally make her disappear from everything. Yes. And I go back to the phone...

phone numbers that they checked. Like, again, in my mind, the question I kept asking was, I was like, just because it's not working when you check it, like, means nothing to me. And if she only... No, that's a call to the, like, phone company to say, end this number, and the number disappears. Yeah, and because they were only one number off and she only tried one more, and, like, I don't think the calls lasted long. I don't think she had a conversation. But I'm like, if someone is like, okay, she's dead and we need to, like,

wipe everything, then maybe the number shuts down. Maybe, man, I mean, like, you could say a lot of things, but I have nothing to back up these things. I could just go on and on and on about the things that are possible. And then there's Mr. F. Maybe this guy, this is all a total, like, weird coincidence. I think it's a little strange that he's there, but

Only one night, and that's the night that she extends her stay. And the night that they, like, potentially have an interaction as well with the room service being, like, misdelivered. Yes! Like, why? I mean, it could be nothing. But, like...

That room? The guy who is from Belgium? Like, I... I don't know. And won't cooperate. I know. Or isn't cooperating. Like, that... But who is this guy? Who is this guy that she put on the registration that some people who were at the front desk say they potentially saw with her if there is nothing shady happening? Why hasn't that guy come forward? I mean, was he...

Was this an affair? Like, does he not want to know he was connected to it? I mean... You mean, want other people to know? Yeah. I mean, I can see that, right? Like, something...

say she did take her own life and... But then where's all her stuff? Like, he would have had to been there when it happened. And then I don't believe she's taking her own life while you're in the room because they don't see it. And like, only getting rid of the pants, the skirts, the underwear. Not throwing everything in a bag and taking it. Well, maybe he did. Maybe he was going quick. There's 15 minutes where the room was unattended. We don't know what happened because we... But quick means you probably miss a pair of underwear. Like, quick...

Quick allows for more errors, it feels like. This feels so much more intentional. No matter what happened in that hotel room, Jennifer, she has to have family out there. I mean, she has to be someone's daughter, maybe someone's sister. As Lars has pointed out, there are all the other people she would have had to come in contact with over her lifetime. Friends, teachers, coworkers, neighbors. Like, someone has to know this woman.

All we can hope for at this point is someone steps forward, continuing to get her story out there, and maybe can lead to the most important thing about this case, which is identifying her. That's the very least Jennifer, or whoever she really is, deserves. And if you know anything or can pass this episode on to anyone who might know anything,

Lars still wants to hear from people who have viable tips. He still maintains and runs his website, which everyone, I'm going to link to it, you should check out. There's literally a 3D walkthrough of the hotel room if you want to really get a sense for it. And

And he still has an email address that he checks regularly. So if you know anything about the death of the young woman in room 2805 at the Oslo Plaza Hotel on Saturday, June 3rd, 1995, please email jennifer at vg.no.

You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No!

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