INFAMOUS: The Bricca Family
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High crime junkie, I am your host ashly flower and i'm bit in the story I have for you today will leave you scratching your head just like I have been because it's about a family that met and untimely end a crime scene that doesn't make much sense, and someone who either got away with murder or spent the rest of his life haunted by the rumor he did. This is the story of the brick family.

You guys, your neighbors, probably know more about you than you think they do. And I don't say that to be creepy. It's just true like you probably know more about them than they think you do because even if you're not close, neighbors kind of notice things about your routine and it's all just based on proximately. Like when you over work, when your lights Normally go out, if you're out every saturday doing your work in the summer, who walks your dialog like that type? yes.

Oh my god, there's this like family who is a couple blocks away from us that have like two little sausage. Dogs are blood hound and also their cats like to follow them on their walks and it's like, and everyday thing we see them like march past our house is little parade.

I have this full adult man in my neighbor od od like, I can set my watch to the time he like, zoom by on his school or I swear he like, gets home from work and he's like, good the time. But that you got the point. The same is true for the brick of family in since ini.

Oh, none of the neighbors are particularly close to Jerry, Linda or their four year old daughter, debby. I mean, the side from maybe some baby sitting every now and then some friendly conversation in the driveway. No one on quiet suburban Greenway avenue would call themselves friends with this family.

Still, the neighbors have been noticing that their routines have been off later. For instance, come tuesday, september twenty seven, one thousand and sixty six trash day was monday. Their cans were out like clock works sunday evening, but monday came and went, and then no one brought the cans in. And now the cans are still out there on the curve all day on tuesday.

And this is not the routine.

I image not the routine, and it's not even just the trash cans, though twenty three year old winda hasn't been seen working in their front yard like Normal dev is not playing outside. Their two dogs aren't barking like they always do. The dogs for me is like the one, the leg.

I know the dogs that bark in the ibbs and possibly most telling, several, their lights have been left on since sunday night. They're not changing. It's like the same stinking lights and i'm sure some of this could have probably just been written off like, oh, they when i've town for the weekend or whatever, except that doesn't work because Jerry car is still sitting right there in the right way.

So by tuesday, the neighbors start talking like, have you seen that mix? So weird isn't IT like do you think they're okay? And they probably waited out just a little, but by ten P M. That night, those who are concerned enough waiting. And specifically, it's one of the women on the street who really notices .

and takes action of courses are and tennis are always up.

We make the best detective. And first of all all but also this is like mid sixties were talking so worth like gender rolls central here matter going to work. She's at home. All the women on the street are probably home. Most of the day they are sent home with the kids are doing .

the housework or tea.

So these, they are the one who are noticing how unusual things that the brick house have been. So one of these women is like, hey, hobby like gonna, meet your half for a SAT. Can you go over for me and see what's up? According to J.

T. Towner's book, summers almost gone, which was the primary source material for the episode. This husband, he walks up to the bRickyard front door, brings the door bell, nothing, not even barks from the dogs who can always be heard loudly announcing visitors.

So he walks over to the road, he pulls up the garage door, and he sees lind's car sitting there inside, which is like even a word sign, because now he knows, right, we ve got jErica lars s, so this may and goes and grabs and neighborhood buddy, who basically says, like, hey, let's try and track them down before we go calling police are jumping to any conclusions. Maybe this is just a misunderstanding. They call all juries workplace where a he's a project engineer with a large I chemical company.

And although IT is late into the evening, there is someone still there who can confirm that not only Jerry, not there right now, Jerry hasn't been to work monday or tuesday, though he was supposed to be not good. A call is also placed to an eighteen year old who regularly baby sits for the family. SHE hasn't seen them either, but SHE senses how worries and this is.

So SHE and her father had to the brick of home to see what they can do to help. So all for the two neighbors, the babysitter, her dad, they meet in front of the house, and then three of them decide to walk around to the back, just in case they spar anything. So out in the backyard, the baby sitter finds more cause for concern.

Her heart beats a little faster as SHE makes her way to the back window. But IT completely stops when SHE peers inside the family room, because, and this is such an area site, the dogs are sitting there holding almost perfectly still. Now they're alive.

They're just like there and in that book, H J. T. Towns and uses the comatose. Here isn't IT and it's that site that squashes any lingering hope that this is all just a misunderstanding. These are not super friendly dogs. So the fact that they haven't been reacting at all to the knocking and the door building, like honestly strike up terrifying, whatever reasons like this home, whatever happened to the family, they're sure in that moment that it's bad.

So they walk back around to the front of the house, they decide they have to get inside, so they crack the unlock door open, but they don't even make IT past the front thresh hold, because instantly all three of them are like smart in the face with this overwhelming smell of decay. One of the neighbors has a flashlight with them, and he shine the light inside and up a short staircase. He catch the sight of what looks like a foot.

So they immediately closed the door. They go call police. And when two patrol officers respond, that's when they finally learn what side the house. Now, IT is this? Like, try level type house.

So you've got a short staircase that heads up to the top floor, and then another short staircase that leads to the lower family room. And they decide to go upstairs. First they go straight to the primary bedroom, and there they find a men and a woman, presumably twenty three year old lda and eight year old Jerry.

They're lying on the floor between the bed in the wall. And Jerry is face down in what looks like his workloads that he has, a Grace lacks on a long sleep shirt, dark socks, and then he's got this separate socks, or may be even a pair of socks, depending on what you read. That is stuff ed in his mouth.

And there's a White tape stuck to his jaw on his left cheek. But most glaringly, he has several obvious stab wounds in his back. And Linda is lying partially on top of him now he is face up wearing a neglige and the rope she's barrett.

Her top is pulled down, exposing her chest. A towel is covering the right side of her chest, but they can't hide the numerous stab wound to the left side. She's got among her chest, on her neck, even her head, and they can tell that blood is pulled on the floor beneath both of them. And there are actually two distinct pools of blood on the bed as well.

Are they bounded anyway?

So they're not at the time that they're found, but they had been, they can tell because they both have like legal char OK. So I remember these are like two patrol officers that are finding them .

out of their league .

well above their pay grade. So they've got a call him back up. So before they do theyve peak in the smaller bedroom, which is right next door to the primary, laying on her stomach with her arms stretched out above .

her is the little girl.

She's wearing her pj s in her robe. She's got a single red sock on her other socks in the bed. And from her positioning, that looks like he had been dragged to where he was and like her dad, SHE had been stabbed in the back. So it's not long before Greenway avenue is set up with emergency as police cars gather around the small home right from the start. IT is pretty chaotic.

The brickley house is in Green township, which is just a few blocks northwest of where since and ati p jurisdiction ends, have Green township cops with a few since and adi investigator show as well creating this weird tension because even though IT should technically be a Green township case since, and I is much more equipped to hall an investigation like this, like they have more access to resources, they probably done something that leave closer to this before. But on top of this, both jurisdictions are part of hamilton and county. And so some of those guys show up to and just adding to the chaos. Our first responders from the fire department who were like traps around the scene, they're not following any proper protocols, according to townsman's book, like one detective, even as a firefighter who like picks up a brief case without gloves, only to realize like OCR rap, like I shouldn't .

be just like .

picking things up. So he put that.

why are you online? No idea, gene.

Sometimes I when I when I like emt calls, though I have no idea, but there's like, there is no fire. I onely feel like everyone just showed up to this. I think this is just like such a wild scenario that that everyone from any department ever is hands on deck.

yeah.

Now, IT takes nearly two hours, but eventually the investigation is given to hamilton county, and everyone else is basically told, like, get hear, like, like, we need space, right? So from here, a bunch of things happen kind of all at once. Fans and lights are brought in, blowing the smell out, kind of illuminating the whole home against the pitch black night, the dogs are removed, seemingly on her.

And the neighbors who went up to the door initially are brought back inside to ID the bodies to confirm that they are. In fact, Jerry, Linda and debby. And right away, there are a few things that stick out to investigators.

First, a bunch of the draws in the house are open. Just the doors are pulled out sore. The ones in the living room, Jerry billfold, is lying on his nightstand, empty.

So at first, this kind of feels like a robbery gone, like, very, very wrong. But something bothers them about that. Actually, a lot bothers them about this scene, and they know in that moment that nothing about this case is gonna be straight forward or easy. Other than the contents of jury's billfold, nothing major appears to be missing. I mean, juries even still wearing .

his wedding band. So if they weren't looking for valuables, what were they looking for?

Precisely also with how violent the deaths where you would expect there to be. Some signs of a frantic attack, a knocked over blood on the walls, but there's nothing like that. Everything is like perfectly in its place. And here's what everyone thinks is so odd. So there's no report of any blood outside of the bedrooms and there's no backs bat on the walls.

which you would usually see with like multiple table, right? So for anybody who who like not aware back that happened when you pull out blood comes with this, right? And that would then let go essentially behind whoever stabbing back spatter.

Yeah, mean, you see that, but apparently there's none of that in the room, which doesn't make sense.

If they were like tied up with that like if there wasn't I like struggle, would they're be spatter?

I mean, i'm pretty sure and that is so weird because to your point, like there isn't a struggle like it's almost I I like for what I know about the scene is almost like they were a sleep. But if they were asleep in my mind, like you won't need to bind them like with with ligature the way that they were like. And if they're notice y that they would have been fighting or moving, you would think and honestly, utmost forget them being easy because if you remember the women or the girls, the debby and her mom in that they had their robes on. So I don't think .

they would have been getting in that Jerry .

still in his workload. And what I didn't tell you, the TV and the family room was still on when everyone came in like IT, almost like they were watching T. V. When whatever happened happened. So regardless .

if they were tied up and awake, would I think we can say, like, yes. And yes, there should differently be the backslapping that is missing.

Yes, unless someone for like straight hours meticulously came in and cleaned. So, okay, which? how? Now, based on the size and shape of the stabbings, investigators know that they are looking for a knife, but a thoro search of the house doesn't turn up any kind of bloody blade anywhere, according to an article in this sense.

And I posed one i've is missing from a set in their home. So they kind of be going to think that that could be the murder weapon and they think that it's possible to killer took that with him in a newspaper because apparently there were two newspapers outside of the house. But really there should have been through again, they're missing for like multiple.

And so like the paper delivery, there is one paper that should be there they know was deliver. They actually checked with the newspaper, but it's not there. So what they're thinking is that this person took the newspaper like wrap the knife in IT and then actually threw IT in the garbage because you remember, it's trash day. That was trash day. So they think that that's gone with the trash.

which I think it's pretty telling that they didn't bring a weapon with them. They use the weapon already inside the hut because that feels like they didn't come there to kill anybody.

Maybe maybe not. I think that depends on if they knew the family or not. So like, stick with me here. So investigators eventually find out that the knife that's missing is, this is a six and a half inch blade, but the handle has this decorative carvin. So IT actually might be something that the family keeps out on display on account in whatever.

but they to access they also.

I think I don't know that for sure. They might keep IT safely tucked away in a drawer, especially something. Have a year. I mean, I ve at turn over. There is no way i'm like jose going to anything so what .

they are basically thinking .

were in so very fair like they think if I was like sitting out all the time, a stranger could have easily grabbed IT. And to your point, they didn't come with their own but they're thinking if IT wasn't a draw, your bob and then the more likely scenario is that someone familiar with the family knew that I was there and still could have like planned like I know the weapon i'm looking.

forcing and to be there so I don't need to do anything.

right? Self, right? So even though the murder weapon is missing, they do their best to collect what they can prince the bloody towel that was thrown overland's body, and even the marborough and cigarettes that they think or from the killer.

And they also carefully remove a single strain of hair that is clutched in lind's hand. Don't get excited about the hair because I literally know next to nothing about IT. I don't know the color.

I don't know the that I couldn't find. Was just there anything yet? All I know is that it's not from any of the victims. So while IT feels a very really important piece evidence, i'm letting you know now that like IT isn't explained in any of the .

stuff that I thought I would ask about IT later because it's .

just I don't know to happen, but I do know that I least I believe I know that I was sent off for testing along with everything else to the FBI because back in the day, they're able to do far more testing than any kind of local agency. Like crime labs in the sixties are a far cry from what we know them today. So while we wait many, many moons to get those results back, detectives do the boots on the groundwork.

The neighbor hoo they're talking to, the neighbors they're getting in touch with, Jerry is co workers. And they quickly learn that this is a quiet, safe street. The kind or no one locks their doors where neighbors are familiar with one another.

And that familiar also breeds a lot of rumors that residents clady start to share with police, rumors that Linda and Jerry is relationship wasn't all that stable, and that Linda may have been having an affair. There are a few stories that collaborate this, some of which revolved around lind's love of animals, or her obsession rather. For example, every time the circus came to town, sheen, like hours with the animal trainers, like working for them for free.

And one time SHE even brought home this ring of beer trainer to dinner, okay, which was a complete surprise, Jerry, who worked really long, sometimes very unusual, hours of his own. And this began to cause some tension, especially when he would come home super late in the evening, forcing the various babysitters, they, to stay hours on, hours over their scheduled time. So between the long hours, and then having to get along with the brick's aggressive dogs, which was like a thing with the babysitter they had, like, make sure the dogs, like, wouldn't attack them before they came over between all of that, like they didn't actually keep many centers for very long.

And actually, this issue of Linda coming home late seemed to come to ahead though wednesday before their deaths. So investigators learned that Linda had just started working part time at a local vets office, and her shift was supposed to end at nine P. M.

Debby was being watched by a neighbor that night at the neighbor house, and she's watching. The clock is like slowly ticking from nine to thirty to ten. And neighbor started to get a little frustrated.

And and finally, IT wasn't Linda who showed up, but Jerry having gotten home from work sometime between ten and thirty, and he finds his house empty. So he went and got her daughter. Then Linda showed up a little bit after that and explained that he had to have a drink with the vet at the clinic. After having they, like try to save this cap. They couldn't have cars around .

the land's job at the clinic. Like was actually like working with the animals. Like when you have vat tech.

choose reception. But like SHE explaining that the cat was brought in. Ly, the vets assistant, was like already gone for the days of SHE like SHE jumped in to help and then he said like they couldn't save IT and they're both really upset or that that was really .

upset about a thing before they went home is or that she's having .

an affair with the vet eventually end up hearing. And the coming home late story is just one of several that really give them a sense of the couple's relationship. I mean, if you if you want to go deep in this, I mean I i've definitely check out towns and sport that I mention.

But from what i've been able to gather about both of them, IT seems like they just wanted very different things, like Linda was more of a free spirit, SHE wasn't your stea typical sixty's housewife. And SHE wanted the freedom to go do what he wanted when he wanted. But Jerry wanted more of that, like, you know, White picket fence, Norman rock, well, kind of life and family. So this incapacity ability was becoming an obvious issue to everyone that please speak with.

Did anyone say anything specifically about sunday or the family there? What did they see .

so IT or as far as the nights or go, somebody saw Jerry take the trash cans out at around nine, but that's kind of IT aside from like a few bumps that or maybe heard there's no screaming, there's no crashing, there's nothing to suggest a violent crime was taking place. And I mean, these houses are only like fifteen feet apart. So you would have thought that maybe neighbor would have heard something of this. Now, another tidbit that they find out that feels important is that neighbors say whenever company came over, the family would shut the two dogs, and like the lower level family room.

and that's where they were found, like on tuesday night.

the are found them there, right.

with the TV still on. Don't a lot about these dogs know they weren't friendly? They probably wouldn't just let anybody come in the house. In general, little one killed .

their whole family. They don't even like most people. Therefore, more than likely they are thinking he was either Jerry or Linda who put them in there. They don't think a strange or walked in the house and then got them to go.

That done. I mean, less with someone that .

the dogs, or if someone somehow got to them before the dogs, they like forced them maybe to put the dogs away. Some people also speculate that the dogs might have been drugged, which could explain their lethargic behavior yeah but they .

were also like trapped in the separation of the house for forty eight hours, no food, no water, like they yeah so could make them and and also what the drugs wear off. Well, that's the thing is .

like by the time they got there, like they couldn't do any testing, right? And what I keep pinking is like, how do you close enough to drug them unless unless you know them? Or are you have like someone in the family?

And I were talking about this now, how much of this was being talked about in first couple of ours?

Well, interviews continue over the next few days, but the next day, the twenty eight, the coroner releases his initial findings. Now this isn't a full report, but it's enough to give investigators something to work with. And the findings are definitely interesting.

The report confirms that Linda had had sex before he died, not right before, but like twenty four to thirty hours before, at least according to the coroner's estimate. But he can't a hundred percent confirm if I was concentrate or not. He tends to be toward IT being a sexual assault. But detectives aren't putting all their eyes in that basket just yet.

He's saying he was a full day before he died oh yeah.

twenty four to thirty hours .

and when is he's saying that he was killed?

So we don't know for sure but like based on the contents of their stomachs, they're saying that the family die. They're thinking sometimes sunday night. okay.

Now to go back to the sexual assault that that he did, he did find sperm which was collected and sent off testing because even though we're like a far cry from DNA at this point, we do have you can like test sperm for a like a blood type, right? So that could send off. And then he confirms that legatus res were used. Sources vary, but according to reporting for the since, and I inquire, Jerry was tied up with a rope and Linda was bound with tape, and they can tell that based on, like, shed remnants out of adhesive on her skin. Now they didn't find any rope at the scene, but there was a dog least that was found in on the couch, which investigators confirm is not where they Normally kept their dog.

We have so where most people keep up, right?

So they thinking that they may have been tied up with that. But like that means that at some point, like after .

their dead .

t and finally, the corner confirms that there also were no defensive loans, but the damage to each of their bodies was extensive because in total, Jerry had four stabbings in his back, three in his neck, two in his head. Lda had six wounds on her chest, two in her neck and two on her head. And debby was stabbed four times in the back.

and all of this was with the same weapon.

I was like, they never. And the .

theory is that just one person did on this. I mean, I find out hard to believe that like one person with just a knife could have tied up two adults and then kill them without anybody seeing or hearing anything .

where there is a kid in the house. I agree, if IT all happened at the same time, like, because I would think you would need two people to at least over power and control them, at least the two adults, even if like only one of them had a knife and this this theory of multiple people is actually, um it's brought up in summer.

I was gone in that book, but I kind of can't help but look at the time line of their last day and wonder if they could have been one person. So let me give to you. So here's the timing.

Based on records and conversations with neighbors and coworkers, they determine that Jerry e arrived work that morning at seven thirty on a sunday. Do I know he works like he's a workforce, okay, and he wasn't and he was scheduled to go in like he just always did. But I am.

He goes in at seven thirty like just like a little bit, but then he goes to mass at nine. He goes and gets gas like ten thirty and then he gets back home at like ten fifty in the morning. At twelve ten we know that Linda called wall Greens about a prescription and then Jerry was back at work by twelve twenty five and then he signed out.

Finally at four twenty five, he goes in, picks up that prescription for lda, and then he's home by six forty five to take a call from a coworker about flight that they were supposed to go on together the next day. And this is supposed to beat the this flight supposed be this really quick work trip, they just like there back the same day. And this coworker was onderstan ery could pick him up driving to the airport that morning. Jerry agrees they're going to meet at six thirty in the .

morning the following day. Wasn't that a red flag? The coworker, when Jerry didn't shock to pick them up.

I guess not really. I thought I would thought so too. But IT turns out that their work schedules are really like they change and fluctuate a lot. So the coworker just kind of assumed that he'd been pulled into something else and just couldn't go on this trip anymore. So knowing he doesn't shop the next day, I don't have big this places or ever red flag to me, I don't know. But the last two sightings of the family on that sunday night or later that night, Jerry goes to the store, eight forty five to pick up some groceries, and then at nine, he is spotted by his trash hands at the seemingly just taking them out for, like, pick up the following morning.

And when does the that's .

the assumption, at least because IT looks like nobody saw her out and about that day, which means to me that there is roughly a and a half hours block or she's home away with dean s now i'm assuming that like all of the family members were killed around the same time based on their stomach c contents. But my question is like where they all tied up at the same time? Like police are so convinced how to be two killers.

But like, what if there was just one? What if he got to debby, Linda, before Jerry got home from work? What if I mean.

a lot of what I mean? Yes, maybe. But if Jerry got home IT like, what? Six, forty five years, why would the killer let him go out to get groceries, put the trash out like he's coming in and out of the house? Yeah, like after the lakes already. Like, I don't know, he also went to .

the grocery store, or maybe like IT happened when he was at the grocery store. Maybe, I don't know, maybe the right weapon, you could have threatened them not to do anything. But I go back to the weapon being in the house.

the killer couldn't predict to have now a family, right?

And I feel like there's probably more of this timeline that's been lost to time. Like what little information is in the public feels kind of all over the place because there was even one article that I saw that says he does not get home til eight. So I mean, maybe is a world doesn't get home. He's pulling the trash is out for the very first, I don't know.

say they do throw up. Wait for Jerry to get home. Why like not a robbery, right?

You be in and out with that was the case. Like was Jerry the intended target then? Like they were .

waiting for him because but why?

I mean, they weren't supposed to be there but also like where else would they be, right?

That's i'm saying like were supposed to be there.

He is like the one place they're supposed to be.

Yeah, I don't.

I mean, so maybe he was someone random who do know schedule grasping here?

I don't know. So that's actually the one thing investigators feel kind of certain about that this wasn't randomly because they are thinking IT all comes back to debby. There is no reason in their that you have to kill a four year old, unless that four year old knows you. Because, like that, she's so Young.

he would not remember anybody .

that even SHE saw someone. Could you give like a real like, I remember, sorry, he knows your name. I remember .

hearing something about like, it's really tough to get descriptions from kids because everyone's big. You can get a hte being in age. Yeah, everyone's old, everyone's big. So yeah, to that point, SHE almost would have had to have known somebody to be a threat, had an yes and no one. I like usual Carters in the driveway.

like maybe they had company or anything. Not in the way, is a bunch of cars like this happens, right? There are like people say they soap unusual cars, cars they recognize around and in, like the days leading up to the murders. But that might not even mean anything. So in police are search for a suspect.

They decided the first person they need to talk to is that veterans? An that Linda is rumor to be having in a fair way, someone who was obviously known to Linda, but also known to debby, and that doctor, fred lining her. They go in fine fred at his clinic, and he seems to be timely up front with them.

He says that he in Linda a few years prior, when he brought some of her pets and for a visit after they had just moved since, and ani and he confirmed that he had just offered her a permanent part time position at the clinic just two days before he was killed. But then, without being prompted, he says that he'd actually been to the ricker's house on friday, by the way, h two days before their death. And he explains that debby, I guess, had left a book at the clinic the last time that she's been there with her mom and that he had, just like, popped into return IT. But he's like, again, like, no, no, I didn't go inside. W is playing out the front yard so I just like handed her the book and then I left without seeing either her parents.

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weird. So maybe he's just trying to be helpful. You know like you know you're probably going to ask me when I last saw them. I'm just going tell you before you ask like fine, but there's something about his behavior that's just a little off. But he doesn't seem all that concerned with the idea that his reception was just brutally murdered.

He's a little aloof, he's seems little uninterested and then he doesn't ask me any questions like not about the family, not about the crime. nothing. And this sticks out to invest years because literally everyone else they've talked to has asked at least one question, right? Like I would have fifteen yeah.

I did they ask me about the affair rumor? No.

not in this first conversation. This is more like a casual chat. They are feeling up the situation, see what he even comes forward with, but they're planning now. Meanwhile, lind's parents fly indusind anadi, and they shed further light on just how rocky Linda injuries relationship really was. They explained that the pair had gotten married about four years prior.

According to a twenty twenty segment, Linda was nineteen, Jerry was twenty four, and london was two months pregnant with debby when they tied the not so I had been rocky from the star. I don't know they would have gotten married, had had not been for debby, right? But their person.

Now these and interests didn't mesh at all. A big recent point of contention had been children because Jerry wanted more kids, but Linda wanted more dogs k like Linda. But sources very on whether Linda didn't any other kids ever at all or SHE just like wanted to wait a few years, I am not sure that matter.

Like in that moment, they do not want the same thing. And IT had caused them to bud heads. In fact, her parents say that just a few months ago, Linda had taken debby two ford on this little vacation.

That was actually what they call a trial separation because things had gotten. So if you're dici at home now, Linda had ultimately decided to stay with Jerry. And while her parents don't know anything about this alleged affair or rumor of an affair, the details that they share make IT seem all the more possible to police.

Did they ever to say anything to them that might, like hinted, who could have done this?

Not that I can tell, because IT seems like police are still hard up for a good lead, even though neighbors are still. I mean, they're getting a bunch of tips and stuff. But I mean, if I feel like the family would have pointed that someone like we would have heard something about that.

But to go back to the tips, like there are some good ones coming in, like for instance, one person report seeing a man walking back and forth the previous thursday in front of the at home. But I, you know, at the time they didn't think much of IT. And of course, now they can even really described the guys.

So not all that helpful. Another acquainting says that Linda had previously worked for another vet that had a history of mental health struggles and had previously been to hospitalized for them. So please look into that.

And they find out that Linda actually didn't use to work for him, but his office is two miles away from the home. But you listen spoilers all around and was going to tell you now this bed isn't on the short list of suspects. So I don't think he's even work spending time on.

But there is an interesting to I do want to spend a little bit of time on from one of the brick az neighbors. SHE says that just after nine P. M.

SHE had gLanced across their yard and noticed that their TV was on. Now this stood out to her because he can't remember ever seen their TV from the angle that SHE is up before, like ever. And it's only now, days later, that she's realizing why SHE could see their T. V. Because he says the only way he could have seen IT was if their back door was open.

So it's not like throw window. That's usually like the blind circles. IT was because of this open right .

can see their TV now because the door was open and the like Normally that's not just sitting now SHE didn't see anyone coming or going. But what this does is that helps solidify a possible time mine and a possible point of entry for the killer. So they are thinking that he likely came through the back door shortly after Jerry put the trash kans out at nine.

Now there are a few other interesting tidbits. Again, there's a town in town and book, but here are the ones that stick out to me. One person says the brink has definitely kept the missing knife out on the counter so anyone could have seen IT and grabbed another neighed says that the day before the murder sheet seen Linda in a car about like one pm with a man who definitely was 啊。 And he describes his car as light gray or Green, some kind of foreign making model. And the driver was White, maybe in his mid thirties.

with blond hair and a long face. And what doctor fred the vet look like.

a bread was blunt, fd, thirty six, but he drove a red car. So I mean, he could have been driving a car that wasn't his. The ultimate thing is, I don't think they ever identify this me, and that he might have been in the car with so big question mark there.

But actually, speaking of fred, detectives begin hearing reports that debby called him uncle fred as though he was super familiar with him, as though he would have recognized him. And I I don't know if this has to do an affair, honestly, think so. Linda was known to take her pets to the vet, act like the solid sign that something was wrong, like one of their neighbor says that he had come in several times a week to the vet, even at one point, like several times a day. And so IT stands to reason that, you know, SHE might have brought debby if like one of the babysitters wasn't available or just like cause I mean, we know SHE brought her when he .

left the book that one time I guess uncomfy seems so close like yeah even calling yeah gold fried .

feels like something else that is like distinctly different to me yeah and .

like there is actually a woman who asked .

Linda wider be called in that and Linda didn't offer any kind of explanation SHE just sort like IT feels like .

IT feels like the sixties like step dad .

title right? Yeah gold friend I don't know. So not confirmation of an affair by any means, but a little things. But the investigators aren't letting themselves get tune vision.

Sure, maybe linder was having an affair, but was that the motive? Because one does not mean the other right? Like maybe, maybe not.

Which is why on october first, when investigators release a theory, they don't claim that an affair was the motive. They say that sometimes just after nine P. M, the family was probably in their family room watching T.

V. Jerry took debby up to bed, as was their routine. And that's when the killer entered the home.

He grab the knife off the counter force lda upstairs with the intent of sexually assaulting her. And then once in the bedroom, he killed her. And then he killed Jerry when he tried to stop him. Is what they say, questions I know I will love .

how do they explain legal Marks because that theory doesn't have anybody tied or taped up? Yeah I don't know .

if they're thinking like he would have like bound Linda, but to me, it's like it's not to actually assault her like I mean, I know because that's not we knew that that would happen or IT may didn't happen, I imagine. Like and this goes to the point of like two people, one percent. Did he? He's putting debit to bed. Did he bind Linda, get her to the room, wait for Jerry, finds him. But if .

Jerry is intervening, like, wouldn't he be stabbed in a friend's y then we come back to the bx banner like if he was intervening, if he was interrupting the assault or murder of Linda, like and he get stabbed because she's in revealing that friends say that makes Better. That doesn't make sense.

The other reasons doesn't work for me is that geran lind's room was actually you have to walk past debts to get to jerious lind's room. So so if he's putting her to bed.

they have to walk past, right, to get to their pressure.

I know no so I don't know why they released this publicly. Maybe they're looking to just keep people talking about this. Maybe they trying to get more tips and maybe IT works like as more do come in.

There's a man that calls and says he was driving by the brick a house at around eleven thirty the night of the murder. And he says he saw two men and a woman getting into a White or Green car. And he says he remembers IT because the woman looked frightened.

It's dark, it's raining at the time, and the witness was just like driving past. So I didn't really get a good look at any of them. I don't know.

I have a feeling is, wasn't Linda because why? Why would the killer take her out of the how killer or killers take out of the house and then bring her back is special. Everything, everything happened at like nine. This is two half hours later.

Yeah, I mean, did they take their banks at all? Like would they be taking her to go get something over to night?

The eleven thirty? And I don't know that what the ATM situation was in the sixty years, but he doesn't say that they checked. I'm sure they did right to like rule out this being like financially motivated.

I feel like if they would gone to the bank and withdrawn everything, that be something you've mentioned at this point, right? But for some reason, investigators are pretty confident in this site, especially because it's partially CoOperated by another person who was driving past around the same time, and this person says that they only saw one person, a White man. But the color of the car, the fact that is, park outside of the brick home are both the same.

But it's great, but not a very helpful ah right like they can not figure out who they are or why they would have taken Linda if I was Linda, that they talk but they might be one step closer to finding one of the mystery men, in their case maybe not the driver of a car, but they might be closer to finding out who had sex with Linda before he died or rather who didn't because they find out the sperm sample. They do test IT for a blood type at the corner's office. And IT was not a match for her husband, Jerry.

We're gonna need a swap from doctor fred.

Okay, so that doesn't happen. White, that's not the next day. I know .

that .

next time. I know, I don't know. So if you remember, the actor was an episode was when I did on the deck, but I think we have talked about IT back this deck episode did on dAnita m was like in the nineties and then the guy who s in charge of the investigations back then, he's like, we couldn't use DNA like a fishing expedition.

The only time we, because of the pricing, because of, like that, this is our spect. We do you want to prove this is our suspect and so that the only time they would do IT like, in my mind, volage thread might be soft. Like.

can we just like name him as I expect to use that and then like it's not like he's and I get like not having IT .

to be like just in case anyone there is someone you could direct compare IT to who said I ve had a fair who like is right there, is right there, but they don't. And maybe one of the reasons that they don't is because right around this time, there is someone else that comes on their radar that they seem to be much more interested in. And it's one of jury's coworkers.

This guy named jim cannon now turns out jim and Jerry did knock IT along. Jim had this tendency to flour, which is about every woman he could, including Linda, which pss Jerry off to no end. And there's even this one breath you're in that there. Disgusting story from a former coworker who says that jim gave a secretary laundry as a good for her birthday in front of everyone. That's just, I don't .

know if I would prefer that he gave the secretary laundry in private. That IT happened in front of people I don't like that had happened at all ill.

So jim is also recently divorce after having cheated on his wife surprise from jane. But IT wasn't the racy gifts or the future with Jerry that made detective so interested in him. IT was the fact that he showed up outside the brick he's home the night that their bodies were found. So the night that the bodies were found, word had spread quickly in neighborhood and even beyond this crowd gathered outside of the home, made above neighbors some of jersey co workers who had heard about the discovery on the radio. And then jim just suddenly sort of appeared in the crowd, and literally no one called this guy.

No one ever calls no .

one's efforts. Ling, jm, so of course, the group is like, hey, where you come from? And jim replied that he had just been driving, I mean, I mean, he had been going so, but he said that I was driving around, I was on a nearby road, and I saw the police lights, and I decided to come over and see what the big deal was, not knowing that this house was the birth house. And then he, without prompting, told the group that he been on vacation since the previous frighting. And the people around him were like.

cool.

cool. Like we didn't ask. We didn't care where you were. The banks for the alibi push mark. And by the way, the road that jim was driving on when he said he noticed the lights did not have a view of the brick house, so him seeing the light seems a little unlikely. And like again, I go back like why volunteer your P T O vacation days or whatever your weekend plans when IT does about IT? Like nobody asked you if you were here .

sunday when they were killed. Jim, yeah.

this is all strange. So add him to the list of people to check out. Go, not blood test, I guess.

And this list is growing. By the way, IT seems like every day someone's calling, telling police to look into this person or that person. Someone's acting weird.

Someone has a criminal history. Someone has seen in the area in the days, leaving up to those who looked a little sketchy. But every single tip is just a dead end. I mean, early on, jack, have rn reported for since anatto magazine that neighbors even suggested the bricks might be the victims of a serial killer.

The since, and I strangler if you are familiar with that story, because like so IT was around this time, there were seven women who were sexually assault and murdered around the sensei area. That killer is still on the loose. Locals are like, you know, I mean, you had that going on.

This happens, are quick to think about that. But as quickly that comes up, that M O is completely different here. And all the while, like investigators, like looking at their watch, like tiktok, you're getting really frustrated with the FBI lab it's taking forever.

And when results finally come back, it's like not even worth the weight. The lab was able to isolate few fibers. Some here are some other trace evidence, but they didn't do any further testing, nor did they even try to explain where or whom they all could have come from.

So totally.

completely until basic.

why is no one looking harder at freed and jet? I there's nothing else. There's no one else I know.

I don't get IT. Have we confronted them about any of this? I mean, i'm so waiting for them to ask her about this.

What's hold up? I think what they're doing is they're asking around a bit more. I think they're trying to get more background information before they just go at him. They're like putting some pieces together. They're trying to figure out either of them had recent contact with Linda or Jerry like, don't you I hate how long this is taking, but you do want to know the whole story before you fully confirmed something.

Again, it's frustrating as hell, but like otherwise, if you don't know the answers before you ask the questions, that you don't know something lying to you, right? And there is this one detail that they find out relating to friday that stands out as they're doing all of this background. IT turns out that the thursday before he died, Linda had called his answering service with an emergency, but SHE didn't say what he needed him to call her back for, because the woman who answered the phone like he took the message SHE marked IT down for the doctor to, like, come back to, but I don't know if he called her back.

I don't know a vather happen again. SHE didn't say what the emergency was. Now obviously we know Linda was like Brown to calling her vet feels like more than most people, so I could have been nothing. But what makes the stand out is that he had never called his answers service with an emergency before. And if he truly had an emergency with one of her pets.

SHE would have just got there.

We know the girl is not like about going multiple times today, like SHE like loves her pets to death. So he would have heard and taking the mayor to get help right away, right? So IT does feel off, but at the same time they are learning moba read.

They do get more tea on gym, and he's seeming more like a viable suspect. Chill, because they get this tip from a man who says that he was driving past the plant or Jerry work, and he noticed two men fish fighting in the parking lot. Now, I didn't recognize either man at the time, but once he saw Jerry face in the paper, he's like, oh, do that's like the guy he was face fighting with.

When was this? This was the day before the murders. what? yeah. And when investigators asked the other employees if they know anything about the physical altercation, a few of them say that they saw some alteration happen.

And while they won't sure who IT was, they wouldn't be surprised. They say, if jim was involved because he has this super quick temper, especially when he drink. So invest finally, do go interview him finally. So jim claims that he law jery on the thursday before he was murdered, and he states that he was on p2 o from friday the twenty third through tuesday the twenty seven， which investigations can corrupt.

Now while he was off, he says that he left town on saturday, drove to india, where he visited his brother that day and then his mother on sunday, and then later that sunday night, he hung g out with his uncle, then went to hang out with some friends until about eleven P M and then afterwards he went back to his mom's house, eventually drove back to since and I on tuesday and when they asked him how he came to be at the brick er's house on tuesday evening, he reiterates what he told us coworkers, that he saw police cars, he decided to check out what was happening. But he also claims that he didn't even know IT was the bricklayer house and that he had never been there, which wasn't drill. Jim had given Jerry a few rides a couple of years prior.

Now is IT possible? He just didn't remember. Sure, maybe, but, but still there stands out. So investigation asked him what his relationship was like with Jerry, and he says that their only arguments were about work and that they didn't fight about anything personal.

So the this fight just didn't happen.

Well, I don't know. They decided all does that matter based on the answer to the next question, which was, what hard do you drive? And when he says he does not drive a Green or White car, they like, don't care.

I'm sorry. No, if there was more than one killer, he might not have been in his own car. I mean, or maybe like, I don't know if you're onna commit a murder, you don't use your own car.

Yes, I have all the question also. We like I don't know why everyone's like so bought in on this car. I don't know .

there's like a million other things to follow up on, but there's like this is one thousand percent the .

car that was there, but let's still not so one of the reasons they be like, listen, his alias is so detail. Maybe he's not a viable suspect.

Okay, but did they check out the L.

I don't know that. I truly don't know if there is like, oh, well, you were in inDiana, you must have been in my mind time like, you took p to you like and like, even if even did like IT is man. I know, know. I'd like to think that they like thoroughly that at this I don't know, but I guess knowing that they still have a solid suspect in fred, I get the impression that they just sort of move on, but at least they don't waste any more time because after talking to him, they do had directly, we're talking the same day to go talk to red. Now they are asking him like some real questions this time. Have you ever been inside the brita's home, which he says only once he had to treat some rabbits and a bird that Linda had? And he claims at the last time he saw Linda was that wednesday before he died, but one at the time where he was like at war super late.

that the night that he stayed and like had a dream with them because they couldn't .

save when the cat of, but worth knowing, he doesn't like, say, any of that part like he's like, oh.

he does to .

drink but they don't call him out on. They're hoping to get more from him. So they asked him when he last spoke to lend and he says that saturday, that's when he had called to offer her to bring her on permanently, which he agreed to.

And then they asked him about the call that Linda had placed thursday night, that emergency once he made to his answering service. And this is where the tone of the interview just shifts, because fred says that he wasn't aware that he had left a message. But then he says he's not sure if he put up the message, if he applied to her.

And then he said as possible, Linda called him and he called her back on thursday. But he can remember what is sure that it's been a few weeks by now. Maybe he just forgot, but he's not bringing up the drink that he had on wednesday. He can't remember he talk to her on thursday. Like something is up here and like this is .

someone if she's there at the vet all the time with her animals, it's not just a random patient. So uncle friend, exactly like you, I would think you would replay the moment that you last saw somebody who had that, you know.

So they ask uncle friend where he was on sunday, the twenty fifth, the night of the murders. According to towner's book, fred says that he must have come into the clinic that night. IT wasn't open, but they had some animals who needed feeding in general care, and two people previously working for him had quit.

So he was the one that had to do IT. But that's not totally vacuum because they know Linda wasn't the only new higher there at the clinic. He had recently hired two other people to help him out with that very thing. This is why you do your background before.

So why go on a sunday night when you literally just got two people to help you out and do that kinda stuff? And investigators asking that very question, and fred d says that, like, oh, I must have been called in, except there is no record of him being called in since they don't keep those kinds of records, apparently and then he says, actually, you know what, I might have been spending time with my in laws instead. So this whole, oh, marry.

So this whole time he's getting like noticeably nervous. And that's when detectives asked him about the nature of his relationship with lda. And he destroyed, shuts down the interview.

This is that they can feel IT. So if he won't talk, they're like OK. Well, let's go off to the .

studes wife still flared that .

he's marya with five kids, my friend. Oh my god. So they go speak to his wife while he's out of the house, or at least they try to. But he tells him she's not going to talk to them without their lawyer, which throws a whole range into their plans because now he's got a lawyer and was refusing to CoOperate.

Okay, go with me on this. Going back to the author's idea that there were two killers.

is there any .

world where the wife is also involved?

I thought about that too. There is nothing that points to her being involved. okay. You'll see a lot of rumors online but like IT comes out of nowhere.

It's like she's kind of legal basis like a natural example and that .

means that there's nothing else. There are literally on forms and said there are like all these wild accusations about like it's how I can like, people will literally make up conversations. I could have had this like to like, but where did this start? Oh, you made that up, right? cool.

So sure. But anyone could be in accomplish. There's nothing to say that I would have been here.

So anyways, they're not talking. They decide to start interviewing everyone in fried circle. His inlaws tell them that he wasn't at their place sunday, did not come for a visit.

And her friend says that on the friday before he died, Linda unexpected dly showed up to this archy range that this friend and fried were shooting at, and he came over and ask if he could follow them around. And the friend says that fdd seemed really nervous at first. But then by by the time they all finished up, he was kind of fine. They all parted ways like the friend left, but like friend in the behind.

So he lied about the last time he saw .

her that he did. But he can lie all he once. That's not proof that he killed his family right now. What would be proof of the blood typing of actual evidence or putting his prince in the house? Because, by the way, they did find unknown prince.

Okay, but even that isn't like one thousand percent that right? Because like the sexual encounter that Linda d was a full day before he was killed. Yeah, fd admitted to being in the house. It's like his prince being there, him even .

being if they were having affair. But I know what I don't know about the general where the prince were found. Like if if the printer are found in blood like that, not something you get past.

I just there's a lot I don't know and if like most importantly, I don't even think that they compared him to anything, that's the biggest thing. It's like let me make up IT excuse once he has want to make great or if we should be looking somewhere else but IT just simply that doesn't happen. And so then even with these, like two suspects that they have, things just seem to visit out.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record going back to the two killers idea, if fred or jim, honest, kill the family, who else, who else would have helped them like them going so low, which seems so improbable? Like who is the accomplish that? Either of them?

There's a few names that kind of get thrown around, but there's quite literally zero evidence that any of them had anything to do with IT. I made a lot of the theory surrounding their friends feel so thin, I don't really like I don't know. I think it's we're a spending time on, I personally think is wild to think that it's like one person.

I don't know why, but I just don't. But what I do know is that with new crimes happening every day, by october thirteen, most of the investigators on the brick investigation are resigned. They really are only able to give attention to the case if a new lead finds them and think, breaking god, that's exactly what happens a few days after.

That's when the owner of a liquor store that's just a half mile from the family's house calls police and tells them that he had story from that sunday night, that that the family was murdered, that he can't stop thinking about. He says that around ten thirty P. M, none other than uncle fred walked into the store and used the phone.

He described him as looking a little shaggy, like not his usual cleaned up self. He attributed that to the rain, but he said that fridge seemed really nervous. And when he died, whoever he was calling didn't pick up like he dialed. He let a ring a few times, hung up, dialed again and the mean says that fred told him IT was an emergency, but he didn't give him any details about set emergency and he also claimed to this whole time fred has uh his left hand like firmly in his pocket and he could see that his right hand like shaking and more than anything, despite him being a regular customer like before all of this after this weird night where he comes in shaking with an emergency and trying to cost to an answer like he never comes back into the store.

why he didn't the sky bring any of this up earlier?

I know he said that he had been on his mind, but he didn't think he was very important. But he's only coming forward now because I guess someone had tried to break in the his own house a few before and IT scared him in his wife so much that he decided he needed to come forward with the story.

Someone trying to break into his house reminded him of fried.

I think he's just like thinking of all the strange stuff that he'd been happening like I don't think he's believing fred tried to break in. Just sad. I mean, I just got the impression that had been like eating at him for a while and this attempted breaking gives him the kicking needs you to at least top police were happen. I don't 人物， but he has one more thing to add that I think is really important. So he says that he actually passed the brick he's house on his way home that sunday night, and he said he noticed a blue car part in front of their house.

which is different than the all the cars that we've talked about before.

Yeah, now for I doesn't have a blue car, but he also says that was raining really hard at that point, he couldn't see very well. He's not a hundred percent sure the description is accurate, but after this, more circumstantial evidence continues to pye up. For instance, remember the tape that they found on juries face?

no. So IT was like when when they were first found.

he had some, like on his chain, or like cheeky or something, a little tape. So investigation, do some digging to figure out where this is from. I assume they like, don't finding in a tape in the house.

It's like that because they really like dive into this and wouldn't know IT. It's tape that is most often used in a vet's office. Well.

if I wasn't convinced before feels like a good time to test some blood types people and this is the first .

place like when I um or one of the first place as I saw that IT mentions him not giving sample. So I don't know that's been part of the hold ub, but I feel like there should be enough for a warrant. If not, I do feel I don't understand warrants, right? Like there's a lot like especially .

now with this vet tape situation.

right? So weeks continue to pass. Police eventually announce that they believe the killer is a White man based on those hairs at the FBI isolated.

But like that aren't really a surprise. And just like the attempted break in at the store owners home, these like odd currently keep happening around town. Like in december nine, marber cigarette ts are found in a ring around lind's grave and that was .

the same kind that were the crime scene.

Ah but to get anything from the cigaret you will be talking about DNA unfortunately, unfortunately, depending on how you see IT, that is the next thing that they try in two thousand. Two right? Yeah evidence at that like nothing happens between that they can move the case and is no yeah so in two thousand and two, evidence gets retested. They do extract a DNA profile from what I don't know, but it's only a partial profile, not enough to actually like put in a database that we would have in two thousand two and not enough to get them any further.

You can do a direct comparison .

though you can. The frustrating parties, I don't know if that ever happens with anyone. There is like zero reporting on that.

And DNA testing, like all of this, is something that the author, J. T. Townland, has been campaigning for since as recently as twenty twenty two.

And i'm like to just direct comparisons, but for like any remaining evidence to be retested because I mean, forget the sixties, technology has come on since two thousand, two or twenty years from that place. So there's no telling what and do with geneology what secrets that like the DNA with his evidence might hold. And unfortunate, I think direct comparisons are going to be hard because many of the suspects aren't around anymore.

I know fred passed away in two thousand four. He was found deceased in a hotel room in downtowns since, and I and his wife was found with him barely cleaned to life, he died and of dying a few days later in the hospital. And according to a brief note left by the couple, friend's wife's health was falling.

His heart wasn't doing super well. He was depressed over losing a bunch of money a few years before that. So the they decided to die by suicide together OMG.

So he was seventy two, and he was seventy three. I couldn't find out where gym is. And maybe IT doesn't matter me. Maybe there is someone else out there that we should be looking for.

Did they do any testing red DNA after he died?

I don't know the law around that or if they can, but I IT is infuriating to me that a little more wasn't done. But IT doesn't mean that there is still so much hope. So if anyone listening, who maybe is with the agency in ohio that like touches this case, or any agency, you know, ohio that touches this case like this, is my reminder to you.

Season of justice, that's the non profit I founded that provides grants to do advance testing in coal cases. The application for that is super quick, super painless. The money goes directly to the third party lab, and you can apply at season of justice dot org. Hopefully will be back one day with an update on the episode.

You can bind all the source material for this episode on our website, crime junky podcast dot com.

and you can follow us on instagram at crime y podcast will be .

back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around for the good segment.

So as you guys may know, october is domestic violence awareness month. And this month, we actually went to highlight a really cool submission we got from someone who was inspired by some good we shared in our october's gate last year, last last year .

how we begin the second a year. Oh my god. no. The good in sparring, the good.

Let's do IT. yeah. So this one is from Morgan, and he wrote, I just want to come on here and tell you how much as podcast in this community has helped me about a month ago, the day after my tweets birthday, I finally grew the courage to leave my abuse er from the age of seventeen to twenty, I was stuck in this endless cycle of what felt like hell your podcast speaks about domestic violence quite often and had I not heard one of the episodes where a mother explained to her daughter that he could always come home no matter what, I was finally brave enough to pack my things and go, I called my dad that morning and he was there.

Within seconds, we loaded all my stuff into his truck. I went home, home, home. The smile that was on my face from pure relief, joy and pride of how strong I was to be able to leave that situation.

That smile didn't leave for days when people tell you the signs and the red flags when IT comes to domestic violence, you think that can't be nee right? And oh my, I wish I would have trusted my gut instinct when I heard others speak about the science. I did not and will not become another statistic.

I stand strong today and remind myself that it's OK to talk about these things to make others aware of the sites. I would like to think the podcast and community from the bottom of my heart for the work you guys are doing, even when you think no one may be listening, we are listening. And IT is so very, very helpful.

Thank you, crime junky. You will forever be in my heart. I I love that .

he is talking about the community because, right, that's not anything. We simply .

gave a voice to another. And if anyone .

doesn't a percent yeah anyone doesn't remember IT was a story about, I think IT was a step mother and A A daughter, mother and doctor. But they were in the car and he was like an awkward kind of relationship.

Person was, I listened to episode de together and he was like.

just say, you know, like, yeah and and like, i'd just chose this one. I think he was that the Susan the reason I chose this one and she's like, you know, F Y I and SHE is like i'd never had a reason to even think they seem like they are the .

perfect relationship for no reason what's ever I said this thing, he could always come .

home and and then he did and wow.

yeah and we told that story at the end of our episode on pretrail knew some more than .

I am so glad that you're safe and sound and you guys, this is what it's all about. Like, where are the ones with the mike in this community? But you guys are like, what have built IT over all this time? And like, like IT, IT means so much more coming from you at some point, and he even does from us.

So, like, I love that you guys are constantly supporting one another, like learning from one another. This is the peak. This is the coolest .

job in the world. And like, IT all thinks you guys crime drank. So stay safe out there and love you, love you. Keep up the good.

Crime junky is an audio check production. So what do you think, chuck, do you prove?