Can RFK Jr. Transform the Healthcare Status Quo?
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Hey, What's News listeners. It's Sunday, December 8th. I'm Luke Vargas for The Wall Street Journal, and this is What's News Sunday, the show where we tackle the big questions about the biggest stories in the news by reaching out to our colleagues across the newsroom to help explain what's happening in our world.

In the waning weeks of his campaign, Donald Trump embraced Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s war on junk food in a bid to win over his supporters. And that was just the beginning, as he later took on Kennedy's crusade against processed foods, environmental toxins, and the broader American health care system.

With Kennedy and others once dismissed for their unorthodox medical and scientific views just weeks away from taking on leading policy roles in Washington, how did we get here? What changes are Trump and his allies promising? What hurdles will they face in implementing them? And how is the private sector likely to respond? All that and more coming up. Let's get into it.

Reporter Liz Esley-White is based in Washington, D.C., where her coverage focuses on the FDA. And Jonathan Rockoff is the journal's health business editor. Liz, I want to start with you. You had a recent piece titled How Science Lost America's Trust and Surrendered Health Policy to Skeptics. We have left a link to that great article in our show notes.

And I imagine the complete answer to the question, how do we get here, is one that we do not have enough time to really get into fully. But you seem to chalk this up to two things, a combination of residual pandemic frustration and basically a longstanding distrust of the medical establishment and the food industry. Am I understanding you correctly? Yeah, that's right. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. kind of coined a new slogan for what his movement represents, and it's Make America Healthy Again.

And then when I was reporting this, there are a lot of people with similar stories of how they got to supporting Make America Healthy Again. One of them that I think typified the people I talked to was Ashley Taylor. She, as a teenager, had some really bad back problems. And the interventions that doctors recommended actually ended up making her worse. She had a surgery that she was just reeling in pain from and

She finally just decided to get away from their recommendations and turn to acupuncture and kind of positive thinking and yoga and that helped turn her pain around.

So then during the pandemic, she was, again, drawn to information from nontraditional sources. And she listened to Kennedy and she read part of his book. And by the time this campaign was in full swing, she was listening to a lot of his messages on food and drugs and how those things had been co-opted by big pharma. And she really agreed with them. And she ended up deciding to cast her vote for Trump because of that in part.

And Liz, whether it's people like Ashley or more broadly, the two cohorts I was describing earlier, there is something unique here politically, right? It's not just Democrats or Republicans we're talking about. I noticed neither of those words actually came up in the article that you wrote. This is a group of people that straddles traditional political boundaries. Yeah, it's an interesting blend of people. Ashley, for example, is

She had always voted for Democrats. And some of these elements of vaccine skepticism and embrace of alternative medicine, they were really seen as left-leaning cohorts in the past of California moms who were worried about things and the food for their kids. But we've seen that really explode on the right as well. And a lot of the pandemic distrust happened on the right. And so it's a real blend of people who just feel like our institutions haven't served them well and want to see major change.

All right, so let's drill down into policy specifics if we could. Liz, what is RFK Jr. advocating?

The big thing that he's talked about in his campaign and now is that he believes America's food and medicines are poisoned because health authorities are sock puppets for industry. He has a lot of ideas that the medical establishment gets very worried about. So anytime he questions vaccines, anytime he recommends removing fluoride from drinking water, there's a lot of people who get very worried about that. Fluoride, for example, is

has been a great public health achievement that's really helped kids not get cavities. But there's other things that he says that scientists kind of agree with, like we don't actually know what these microplastics are doing or some of these forever chemicals. Ultra-processed foods, we should probably look at those and figure out how they're contributing to obesity.

And Jonathan and Liz covered a lot there, yet there's more, right? I mean, between Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and some others, we are really talking about wide-ranging, at least sort of proclamations about what they might want to do. Well, I think we should be careful about how powerful we think this coalition is. That's still to be seen. They certainly, as Liz's article showed,

a sizable share of votes for President-elect Trump. But whether this movement will actually translate into real policy action and upending the

How we do health policy in the United States remains to be seen. I think we're going to probably see a lot of fights over vaccines. And while Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has sought to moderate his positions and would take issue now with saying that he was opposed to vaccines or skeptical of vaccines...

His previous track record, if you look at his statements, he said some things about vaccines that would indicate that he is opposed. So we will have to see if he does take on vaccines, what kind of shape that would take. All right. A ton there that if enacted, even in part, could affect a huge range of industries. We've got to take a very short break. When we come back, we're going to look at what it will actually take to change the medical and scientific status quo in Washington. Stay with us.

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Before the break, we were talking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and some of his beliefs. Liz, if confirmed to be the head of the Department of Health and Human Services, how much could he actually get done in that role?

As HHS secretary, he will have what Alex Azar, a former secretary, said was a shocking amount of power with the stroke of a pen. He'll have the bully pulpit. He'll be able to control communications and what health authorities are saying about things like vaccines. He could easily do away with the committee that recommends immunizations and immunization schedules for children and adults or just put vaccine skeptics on that committee.

He could make administrative changes to the program that pays for a lot of vaccines for children who come from low income households and other kids. He's talked about how he wants to end drug advertising on television, which is within his power. It would probably face a lawsuit on free speech grounds. But there are other kind of actions that he could take without having to go through Congress.

And some of them are kind of regulatory that would require notice and comment rulemaking. But we've seen the incoming Trump administration already doubt whether they have to play by some of those precise rules as well. And he has been, including in the opinion pages of The Wall Street Journal, weighing in on issues that technically would fall outside of his authority, if I understand correctly. Yeah.

There are some things he really wants to reform, such as the dietary guidelines, and those fall under the Department of Agriculture. And so he won't have oversight over that. It's possible that he's able to work with Trump's nominee for ag, Brooke Rollins, and try to reform that process.

There are other things like what SNAP pays for. SNAP is our essentially food stamps program. And he really doesn't like that it subsidizes things like Coca-Cola or sugary drinks. And he wants to do away with all of that. But that would require congressional action. It would require kind of cooperation from the Ag Department. So

Some of those agenda items look to be a little bit more in doubt at this moment. Got it. Jonathan, what are you hearing about how the pharma and food industries might respond to any reform efforts from RFK Jr. and his allies?

What we'll probably see from industry is that they'll try to maximize the parts of Trump's platform that will benefit them, that will keep their taxes low, that will decrease tough antitrust enforcement, and then try to minimize the policies that would hurt them. The pharmaceutical industry would certainly support any efforts to reduce the use of ultra-processed foods.

And they might try to find common ground with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his allies in weakening the drug price negotiation provisions that were part of the Inflation Reduction Act.

Medicare for the first time this year negotiated the prices of 10 drugs. Obviously, that's something that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't support. They didn't want it. They will try to weaken it. And so if there's any opportunity in the Trump administration to do that, they'll pursue that. Liz, I'm curious what you make of that and what other consequential battle lines you see forming in Washington. Some of the most interesting battle lines will be around Kennedy's efforts to root out conflicts of interest.

For example, he really doesn't like the user fees that drug companies pay the Food and Drug Administration to help speed their reviews. Before these user fees were enacted, it often took a long, long time for the Food and Drug Administration to get to an approval. And the idea of these user fees was this would give FDA the staff they needed to really be able to turn out and

and review the approvals in a timely manner and bring more certainty to the industry and help people get drugs on a faster timeline. But RFK really sees this as a conflict of interest, and he would like to get rid of them. Now, getting rid of them in a way that doesn't make much of FDA's work grind to a halt would require significant appropriations from Congress.

But you have seen bipartisan support for that idea in the past. Senator Burr was a big fan of kind of reexamining the user fees situation. He was a Republican and there are Democrats as well who have thought about that idea.

There are other interesting things that Kennedy really doesn't like, such as the way that universities can profit and patent off government research that the NIH funds. And that is a system that prior to Kennedy making it a big deal was really something that the left was upset about, that Bernie Sanders was mad about. But some of those systems have been in place for a long time, and the drug industry sees them as really bedrocks of innovation. And so those battle lines will be fascinating.

I think it will be really interesting to see on both issues, but especially user fees, whether RFK Jr., if he is confirmed as HHS secretary, will be able to make change. Because that issue in particular, user fees, just shows how difficult it is to make substantial change in Washington.

So much of the FDA's ability to review drugs and review them in a timely manner depends on getting those fees. And in an environment where we have the Department of Governmental Efficiency looking to cut trillions of dollars in federal spending, how are we going to balance that?

Cutting the federal budget with making sure that safe and effective drugs get to patients quick, right? So that will provide a key test for the health policy team and will give us an indication whether RFK Jr. is actually able to navigate the federal bureaucracy and make the kinds of changes we're talking about.

I've been joined by Wall Street Journal reporter Liz Esley-White and health business editor Jonathan Rockoff. Liz, thank you so much for the time. Thank you, Luke. And Jonathan, thank you so much too. Thanks, Luke. And that's it for What's New Sunday for December 8th. Today's show was produced by Anthony Bansi with supervising producer Christina Rocca and deputy editor Scott Salloway. I'm Luke Vargas, and we'll be back tomorrow morning with a brand new show. Until then, thanks for listening.

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