Left Behind: Why Democrats Lost the Working Class
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Do I have to say it now? Always with a question mark. We are now, oh God, it's only been a fucking week. That cannot be possible. You know, and I hesitate to say it because it's been a week where like the faint taste of like a shit taco has been in my mouth for like a week. And I don't think that that's, by the way, it probably should taste like that. You should feel this discomfort. I just wish the discomfort wasn't always present.

I feel like I have tried this week very much to just go about my normal Knicks box score obsessing or those types of things. But there is this faint discomfort that is always in the background of my mind of like this moment slipping away from us and the country. I'm hoping that that dull home slightly goes away because I find it

very distracting that I'm constantly checking Twitter to be like, oh my God, he nominated Brian Kilmeade to run commerce. Like what are we doing here, people? But I don't want to also lose the discomfort because the discomfort is, it is an incentive. It is incentive to think about

how to reverse, how to change this, how to improve upon outcomes that I would prefer. If it didn't taste like a shit, it should taste bad. It shouldn't be something that leaves our collective souls immediately that we wear so lightly, like perhaps a windbreaker. I didn't really know where I was going with the metaphor. So I'm going to go with a light jacket because it's fall and because I lack imagination.

And so I'm unable to come up with metaphors other than literally what I was wearing this morning. That's how sad I am. I'm an old man who no longer has the imagination to get the taste of a shit taco out of his mouth. Folks, action is the antidote to anxiety.

and action is creating forward momentum uh whether it be through discussion or action about what it is you would rather see in this country and and to that end i think we have a great guest for that uh today i'm so excited to to speak with her i'm gonna get to that now so we're gonna uh bring on our guests

Her name is Sarah Smarsh. She's a journalist. She's the author of Bone of the Bone, Essays on America by a Daughter of the Working Class. And I would imagine, Sarah, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. I would imagine in this election in particular, as Democrats struggle to understand the alien creature that is the white working class voter, that you are seen as the Rosetta Stone. Do you find right now that people are looking to you

for answers in this confusing world of the rural voter.

First, thanks for having me, John. And yes, I do find I'm getting a lot of calls right now. That's been true to some extent for some time through the current political era. But this really feels like a moment when maybe my message about class and the way that we need to center it and discuss it as an identity unto itself is really critical right now. So yeah, I'm happy to be here to talk about it.

Well, I'm delighted that you could join us. You know, I have my theories about the election. It's interesting. You mentioned just now class as an identity, which is, you know, I always view the world as we have, you know, everything is sort of at some level intersecting between class, race, gender and religion. You know, you sort of have these the four horsemen of the shit top shit top. Yeah, that's that's that creates all those things.

But at its core, my kind of feeling about the election is there is a broad swath across gender, race, class, religion that believe that government is no longer particularly responsive to the needs of the people. And if your message is this election is about saving this system,

But even amongst these wide variety of groups, people feel that the system is not particularly has any efficacy. Does that cut across all of those different identities? And how does it impact the class identity, maybe even the most strongly?

Well, I think we've been in a burn it down moment for some time, several election cycles. 2020 might have been somewhat of an anomaly. Biden, of course, won that general. And here we are again with Trump.

I will say going back to 2016, you know, I felt it profoundly on the ground, even in places like rural Kansas, that a Democratic socialist from Vermont was sure getting a lot of traction and actually built an incredible coalition, almost got the nomination more than once, in fact. So that sort of anger, rage, you know, that's just been kind of on broil.

That ground level across, as you say, all sorts of identity markers, I do believe has a lot to do with class and the way that, as you say, intersects with race, intersects with gender. But but it is an experience that that every one of us experiences.

has and contains. And if you're on the losing end of that power structure, that continuum, and far more people are on the losing end than not, of course, then to your point, indeed, saying we're now defending these structures that have had you and your family hurting for some generations is maybe a losing messaging strategy.

So let's talk about that. That's a great place to start because it's this idea that we're defending these structures. So what in these structures isn't delivering? What part of these structures? Let's look at the chasm between need and servicing those needs. What isn't being delivered?

Yeah. Well, I think a way to kind of look at this in very specific terms would be the gulf between the message that the economy is actually great, dummy.

You must not have seen the statistics. Are you saying that doesn't work? All right. You must not have read the latest report about the GDP. Most Americans don't own stocks. Sure, you can say inflation has slowed down and there have been economic gains in all sorts of ways.

But but for for the average underpaid American, it's not even just about prices. It's also about or spending. That's a measure that that's the economists love to to trot out. You might be buying all your groceries and your consumer goods with a credit card.

I didn't hear a lot of talk about debt. Most of the working class and working poor Americans I know hold profoundly disturbing amounts of debt, be it credit card, medical. I will say the Biden administration did talk about medical debt a little bit. Maybe they could have led with that. I think that might have helped. Rather than GDP? You really don't think GDP was...

Right. Yeah. So, yeah, people are hurting. And if you're looking at in the face and saying, actually, you're not in whether that's a move to kind of defend your own administration that, of course, the Democratic candidate was part of.

And that's a very difficult to thread that needle. You know, the task she was handed to kind of propose how we'll change, but also still be riding with the last administration. You were about to say, you were about to say riding with Biden. I think you were about to go for a rhyme there, Sarah. Yeah.

But most people are hurting. And here's the thing, because I know that a lot of liberals and Democrats and progressives alike might be saying, but you're saying all that. And the Democrats have the better policies. They address all of those needs better, even if imperfectly in the end. Ain't the Republicans worse? And while I happen to agree with that, here's the trick. The Republicans, meanwhile, are the ones validating the pain.

and politics is an emotional business before it's a rational one, and that's why they win. That is incredibly interesting to me. You know, it's this side, because I'll agree with you, you know, I have sort of a disconnect, and actually not even necessarily, oh, the Democrats are better, because I do think Democrats have bought into, I guess, what they would call neoliberalism to a large extent. And, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking that,

This is a much larger conversation about, since Reagan probably, we've kind of moved into this investment economy, that investment and capital, money, means more than work. Labor is devalued and investment is king. And administrations, Republican and Democratic, you know, you mentioned Bernie Sanders. I think he was one of the few that kind of bucked that trend. But it does feel as though since Reagan—

we have devalued labor and both parties policy or, or otherwise seem to agree that this idea of capital and investment being having primacy is a winning one economically. Would that ring true to you? It does. And you know,

Just to go back to neoliberalism and the way that it crosses those party lines, NAFTA, I think, kind of originated with the first Bush administration, but was, of course, signed into law and celebrated as a major victory for the Clinton administration. And the person who held that pin, by the way, I think there's been a bitter taste in

in a lot of workers' mouths around specifically the Democratic Party, even though both were complicit in NAFTA. But these moves toward, you know, globalization, which, depending on who you are, means very different things. And, yeah.

Yeah, the devaluing of the American worker without a real plan other than like, how about this coding program for people in Appalachia? That would be... You know, that was my favorite. My favorite thing that they ever said was, you know, yeah, we are going to be pivoting from the coal industry and you're all going to be losing your jobs. But...

We are going to send you to computer science school. So it's really a wash. Come on. So there were big money and corporate interests involved in all of those shifts. But ultimately, part of that perfect storm of really pissing off the working class was that meanwhile, you've got the party who used to be on their side, at least seemingly, who now just flat out apparently don't get it.

Right. But you talk about it as identity. So I want to tease that out a little bit, because to my mind, even with both parties kind of embracing maybe a larger structure of neoliberalism and globalization and capital being king and all those different things.

The Democrats really do, like Republican states, have right to work states. If you're upset about globalization, if you're upset about factories moving to Mexico to avoid having to pay workers a decent wage or doing any of those things, you know, South Carolina is kind of Mexico to maybe some of the northeastern states that have more worker protections. Why doesn't that resonate for workers?

Well, I think there was a very successful kind of messaging campaign some decades ago to not only get those laws through that the so-called right to work laws that were basically union busting, but also to kind of poison the water to really shift the culture around a worker's relationship to the concept of a union. Right. As a child in the 80s who

a lot of my family worked in the airplane factories in Wichita. That used to be a major center of that industry still is to some extent. And also in wheat fields and the agricultural industry, that would not be a, you know, a sector that's traditionally so tied up in unions, but I have folks in, you know, the trades in my family and communities who, who didn't want anything to do with unions. And I think it might've been, you know,

that not just the laws changed, but somehow cleverly the culture also did. Those are imperfect systems themselves, of course. Labor and unions have changed

historically also been rife with their own problems and been power structures of sorts. Right. Yeah, they have their own corruption as well. Sure. Yes. And that's fair. And nobody knows that better than a worker. But they remain, to my mind, the greatest perhaps tool that laborers have. And it has been stripped away from people in a lot of states, as you say.

That actually gets to, I think, an interesting point, which is whenever we discuss economics with people and they always say, like, we've got to strengthen these unions and we've got to get in there. And isn't that in some ways-

Maybe an antiquated way of looking, you know, why is it incumbent always upon workers to just, in some respects, get better lobbyists? If we're going to be sticking with this idea that investment is a more powerful tool than labor, how do we not plug labor into that investment current? Sometimes they'll be offered stock portfolio or sharing or things like that, but sometimes

That's not normal. And so how do we get it to the point where you don't need a union to come in there and go, because generally unions are still like, Hey, stop making them work 60 hours and you have to pay them overtime and you really do need to give them health insurance. It's all those basics. Why don't they participate in the gravy? Yeah, I get you. Yeah. I

I think this might go back to culture, actually, and the way that that relates to class as an identity. So here's the thing. Even if you got in on that gravy, that gravy itself is unto a class and a mode of thinking and a relationship to economy that actually threatens your way of life and your place in your community and your skills. And so what I'm getting at here is like...

The folks who I know who do manual labor or, you know, would identify as members of the working class, even in the service industry and all sorts of jobs, right?

They're very proud of their work. They aren't actually trying to get out of work. Some of them like to work. Their identity has to do with that steel or their identity has to do with that wheat field or with that hammer or, you know, even with that relationship they have with customers, waiting tables and so on. So it's like trying to say to a bunch of folks that are looking at everything in a macro way that,

Here on the ground, we're talking about the dignity of our work. We're also defending our rights and we're trying to get more money and we're trying to get you to back off working us into the ground. But that's not the same thing as saying we actually don't like our gig and feel very proud of the skills that we have. And by God, we could talk about AI all you want, but for the time being, we need people who have those skills and

And they know it. So while I don't think it's a bad idea what you're talking about, I think it's just two different realities in terms of a relationship to capital, how you build it, and how you value yourself. If a worker hands over just like the inherent value of her ability to fix a sink...

And now she's swimming with the real sharks trying to get ahead, swimming in the gravy, if you will. That's maybe a really precarious way to be because they've already got you beaten every other way. At least they don't know how to fix their sink. All right. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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uh, that work. It's like almost trying to come up with, uh, the, in the ways that they're very creative about padding their bottom line. And, and you have this with a lot of corporations, they'll pay a certain like wage. That's not a living wage. And so you're forcing people who are still having, as you say, that, that work that they're proud of that dignity that they're proud of, but it's not bringing them enough that they don't still have to reach out to, uh,

some government programs to help them even to just get by. I mean, I don't, I don't know if people realize how much people who work still rely on programs from the government to benefit that.

Oh, yeah. Like a scandalous percentage of, let's say, Walmart employees are on food stamps. The scandal, by the way, to be clear, is that Walmart is underpaying its workers, not that anyone needs to seek out assistance. It was my meaning. Exactly. And that's the point. And it's so interesting. You know, you talked about it as this is an identity.

And what goes along with that identity? It's sort of, because you're saying it cuts across different lines of class and gender and religion and those different things. In that identity, is it just about the government not recognizing their struggle? Or is it about a government also not being able to ease it? Which do you think is bigger? Well, I think that we can...

maybe answer the question by just pinpointing or teasing out who is that government? Who's there? It's mostly pretty well-off folks, affluent folks. A lot of them went to the same Ivy League schools. There has been modest but

you know, somewhat heartening, um, and hopeful diversification of Congress and, and the ranks of, of government along gender and racial lines. Uh,

If you look at class, though, very rare is the lawmaker who has a background with direct experience of poverty or the working class or throw in rural America and you're down to like people you can count on one hand. Right. But then you get a guy like John Tester in Montana and they just voted him out. Yeah. I mean, that's a dude who literally like lost part of his hand in a threshing accident. Yeah. I think it was a meager.

Meat grinder. Meat grinder. But yeah, and God bless him. He had a good run. So what I'm getting at here is I'm not so sure that it's that the structures themselves are unresponsive by definition, but rather the folks who are driving, who are behind the wheel, have –

enormous class blind spots and often racial blind spots and gender blind spots as well. But across the board, there is just a gross inability to truly understand

the day-to-day lives of the average American. And, and, and that's true in both parties. Of course, I talked about the little trick that the Republicans pull off meanwhile earlier, but, but, but if the, but if the Democrats also have that problem and then they're telling you you're wrong, that the economy sucks recipe for disaster. Right. And you look at, I mean, J.D. Vance is, is,

supposed to be the avatar for the politician who comes from, you know, Appalachia, comes from a white working class background. But I think you're right. Then you tie it into, but there's a dude who like his story is I worked my ass off and went to Yale and got out of that place. And maybe the thing that you're saying is,

What if we recognized a pride of place that not everybody necessarily wants to leave, has great pride in not just the work that they do, but the culture that surrounds them. They don't want a way out. They want a way to live where they live, how they live with dignity and some economic security.

Yes, 100%. So when I moved to New York in my 20s, a question I often got was, how did you get out? And I think the idea was it was a compliment. And I actually love the place I'm from. I live there again now in rural Kansas, happily. But I had no choice in terms of my career path and my goals and my aspirations professionally and academically, but to leave. I'm kind of a homecomer, if you will, who returned home.

um, with the, on the Odyssean journey. Um, but, uh, that's how I ended up back in Jersey. Same thing.

Yeah, you get it. But yes, home and place. And I believe those things often kind of relate to class. But the capitalist and industrialized and globalized and urbanized way of looking at reality often leaves place out of the equation and place lies.

Boy, is that still a tie that binds, I find, when I talk to people about my work, all colors and ethnicities and political stripes even. Where I'm from, you say, where are you from? And

So your daddy was down at, oh, you worked at that grain elevator. And there's different versions of that all over this beautiful country, of course. And if all of the policy and the aspiration that you're talking about, something we haven't mentioned yet is how the Democrats throughout that campaign

John, I don't think I heard him say the word working class once, the term. Maybe I missed it. It wasn't in an important economic policy speech. It wasn't mentioned in 82 pages of a policy book that I read about their economic plan. But the reason I point that out is because it's always about the middle class. We're talking about how do we get you in the middle class? We know you want to be in the middle class. We're jerking off the middle class with every overture we make.

with our messaging, exalting the notion that, and meanwhile, we're defining like the demarcation line as a college degree. - Oh, that's interesting. - And so the notion is, so if we know you wanna make it and you wanna get into the middle class

I know people that are perfectly happy with their modest lives in a rural landscape, and they're proud to be doing the work of tending and protecting a piece of land. And maybe they're extremely well self-educated, read a bunch of books. But if the current pathways are like, and now you've got to leave your home and go take this coding class and now enter this completely different world that you don't even want.

I mean, you know, like another thing, of course, the what's the saying about New York, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. And what I would say is, well, there are people who could make it there, but they just don't want to. And that's like being completely, completely left out of the conversation about what sorts of aspirations or goals someone would have for a good and fulfilling life.

Uh, that Sarah, I think is, I think you've hit on, I don't want to call it sort of the mother load of the, but what, what you have just said has struck me, uh, in a way that maybe had before, but you're right. As I'm looking at the breakdowns of the electorate, you know, uh,

People with a college degree is now the biggest separator between there. But inherent in that is a certain prejudice about what that means. The idea being a college degree is your passport and you cannot go anywhere without

without the college degree. Oh, and by the way, the ante for a college degree is now at minimum $75,000 all the way up to $500,000 for four years or some crazy fucking piece of money that's going to put you in debt. And you're going to have to climb out of that for the whole thing without this idea that

There is that sense of place and lifestyle and culture that should be economically and socially viable for people and that they shouldn't have to choose that one path of debt and whatever that passport would cost them. I think that that is...

a really important point that I have not heard spoken very often. Yeah, I think it's an important one. And I want to point out, by the way, that that choice that someone might make or that kind of rearrangement of traditional capitalist value sets in deciding where to hang their hat and how to live their lives is

That's it's important for all of us, including urban and formally educated folks that that people are, you know, something I would like to point out, having grown up in a rural space and living in one again now. Yes, we are a majority urban community.

population now, but 98% of the land of the United States is rural space. And as someone who sees firsthand what's going on out there in terms of corporations and who's buying that land, what they're doing to it and extracting to it, it's good for all of us if we've got a little bit more of a sprinkle going on, somebody reasonable and sane who has that pride of place that you mentioned, who wants to protect that place.

That actually affects all of us. If you eat, if you put gas in your car, if you care about the earth and the land that we share,

people who are, um, you know, trying to keep the kind of agrarian lifestyle that is days gone by for a lot of families, but it's still alive and well in some, um, it's, uh, it's, it's the, the fabric of our country. And, um, I, I'm glad that some people are prioritizing being in those places. Right. And by the way, I'm not, you know, I don't want to give the idea that I'm, I'm fetishizing that or that idea of like, yup, those are the good hardworking people. Like

Working in a city, living in a city, getting through there, surviving there. That's fucking hard too. Like it is. I think the whole idea of it is not viewing things as in such a hierarchy, but viewing them. Now the counter to that might be the rural areas of this country do hold a larger portion of the political power just based on how the constitution has apportioned how we vote. Does that,

Does that part of it, you know, look, we talk about, you know, the rural parts are much more decidedly read and they do hold within our Senate, certainly a much larger portion of the political power in terms of the amount of people they represent. So before we go too far down the rabbit hole of nobody sees these folks, how is that? Does that part resonate in rural areas? Did they how do they view that?

And I have a follow-up to that, but I'm just curious. Yeah. Well, what's wild is for all the electoral college privileging those rural states, as you point out, most folks I know in those parts of the country don't feel represented by their governments either. Right.

Part of that is due to just not really resonating with either side in this two-party system. And again, the largely rich people that run both of those parties. Also, you know, if you look at when you strip an issue away from those labels R and D and have a ballot measure for progressive ideas like legal weed or reproductive rights, defending those issues,

Medicaid expansion, all down the list, they often pass in so-called red states. So there's something going on there about the identity, you know, has now become we're the red state and that's our majority politics here. And sometimes that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of now a heightened sense of desire to belong to your place. But that's not necessarily the same thing as reflecting precisely what you believe

believe and want in the world. And that dissonance between political behavior and what people actually believe, you know, that's for sociologists and psychologists to parse, but I know it firsthand. I've seen it. Another thing about...

That kind of wobbly way that we get representation and how the rural folks have have more, you know, that that red and blue map and that that winner take all politics that it reflects is so toxic, I think, to our understanding of ourselves, whether you're rural or urban or somewhere in between.

You know, in most you've probably seen before when someone takes the 50 states and instead gives them a gradient of purple rather than just showing who actually won the state in the way that we run our elections, but rather to actually reflect the sizable political minorities that exist in every state.

And they're there in red states, too. Even, you know, a place like my Kansas, I think in, you know, most general elections, there's about 40 percent of people vote for the Democratic presidential candidate. And two out of five people ain't nothing. But sure. So here. So here's where, again, that the the electoral college and the way we do our elections is

is damaging even in those spaces that are disproportionately represented, whether in the Senate or elsewhere, is that if you are one of those two out of five people in that place, my God, is that demoralizing and it is so hard to keep hanging. And then meanwhile, if you're being sort of lumped in as though there's this stereotype or homogenization of your place in the cultural idea of it,

And, you know, you're like a kid holding a Black Lives Matter sign in small town Kansas, and I've seen it. That's very brave work. That might be braver work than what's going down in Brooklyn. You know what I mean? Because it's like you're against the grain. No question. You're against the grain.

Of the culture. And then meanwhile, you keep seeing this red and blue map. And then meanwhile, where is your vote going? My God, does it even matter? And that's what I was alluding to about a self-fulfilling prophecy, because then those people might long to leave. And I'm sure that it works vice versa too with folks in so-called blue states.

choosing to hang their hat somewhere else. Yeah. There's, there's a sorting. It's a soft sorting. Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes perfect sense. All right. Well, let's take a quick break and we will be right back.

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What is so blowing my mind about this is, and this is the thing that you're talking about, that dissonance between how you feel and maybe what the policy might reflect or what things are in a more practical way. But it is. So if I were to look at this more broadly, this idea of like,

You know, in the red states, some of this is a rejection of what they would call identity politics. We're so tired of pandering to identity, black, gay, Jewish. You know, we don't want to pander. We don't want woke policies. On the flip side of that is see our identity.

value our identity. It is a sort of bizarro world, DEI identity politics. It's that there is a, there is an identity here that isn't being addressed. And, and, and that in some ways what's effective about what you're talking about, about the feeling is it seems to me that the most effective message that the Republicans have is

You work hard and you pay money into a system that doesn't deliver for you because it's too busy giving money to undocumented trans athletes who are there to destroy your work. Like they've painted this picture of a system that you work to pay into, but undeserving people get all the benefit of it, which is in some ways just a different kind of identity politics. No, no.

Well, I think it's a manipulation of the way in which we've been handling identity politics. And I don't use that term negatively. It's important that we're talking about racial inequality and gender inequality and the way that those things affect your probable outcomes. But if you're doing that, if your DEI statement

isn't also talking about socioeconomic class. Right. If your, if your definition of diversity is not also acknowledging wealth or, um, you know, the, the, uh, I'm a first generation college student. So I often find myself in a college graduate there. I often find myself in professional spaces where I'm the only person who has a background remotely like mine, uh, regardless of color and gender. Um, and,

And yet when I was kind of crossing that bridge from one class experience or reality to another, if you will, and I contain both today, but that bridge was on that college campus. As that first generation student, there were, you know, they were rightly race and gender and other aspects of identity were being addressed there.

But there was something very specific about what I was that made a really hard go of it for me that was not being discussed. And so if we as a culture and a country are not acknowledging that class is also an identity thing,

then in that void, in that vacuum where deep pain of, of, of, of valid sense of not being seen arises, comes,

There, there then comes in swooping, comes in writing on a demon horse Rush Limbaugh. There comes in writing the messages about the immigrants. Don't make me conjure up images. And the reason and the brown people. And so there is actually, in my view, a real... Now, I want to be careful here because when I talk about a grievance, you can simultaneously...

have white privilege and economic disadvantage. My family would be an example. I grew up on a fifth generation wheat farm and we struggled to get by. And we were below the poverty line. As we say, I qualified for a Pell Grant. And it's also true that we owned a little bit of land and

That land was stolen from indigenous peoples. People of color probably never could have owned it without being menaced and times gone by. And so in most, even poor white families, you can find traces of white privilege. But if you're only acknowledging the privilege of whiteness and you're not meanwhile discussing the fact that within the 40 million people in this country living in poverty, the largest group of them are actually white.

just because we're still a majority white nation, you're more likely to be poor as a person of color due to structural racism. But if you're only talking about the privilege and you're not acknowledging the disadvantage within the white working class. And by the way, also black working class, Latino working class. So when you talk about all those identified, there may be more common ground amongst working class of all races, genders, religions, then there is amongst upper class of

Absolutely. Call it right. Yes. This this is I'm telling you, man, this is this is the hit because, you know, it's that resentment that treats our game. And you said it earlier about a zero sum election. It's also capitalism can't be a zero sum game where only investment is the thing. It's about recognizing struggle as identity.

And that being like in a capitalist system, there are victims. Anytime you're in a system that is searching for the cheapest labor and the cheapest raw materials to make goods and services, you will have people who suffer at the bottom of that. Recognizing that, what's so interesting about this is it's actually a way for Democrats to expand their

on the way that they view identities and groups to include, not to exclude, but to include even more people

And to promote ways of not just making those identities feel seen, but of alleviating struggle. It's got to be about alleviating struggle. Too many fucking people in this country struggle. It's too hard. That has to be a part of it.

Yeah, you know, this might sound crazy, but affirmative action such that it still exists. You know, rewrite that law to also include, let's say, household wealth. See what happens. Which, by the way, is not to suggest that race or gender or any of those other things are fixed. It's just to suggest that you have to include everybody.

Yes. Yeah. This is one of the reasons the conversation falls apart often is that the notion is that these ideas are in opposition to one another. But if we actually believe in an intersectional idea.

mode and march toward justice, then we can't make class secondary. And as you were alluding to, class, right now we're isolating it among discussing the white working class because that's the political moment and that demographic that has vexed so many. But

But class, as you were alluding to, it's an experience for people regardless of color, regardless of origin, regardless of ethnicity. And often, indeed, as you say, it's a tie that binds. And it might have to do with place or day-to-day experiences or the job that you hold side by side. But any group that's really interested in change and justice is leaving a lot behind.

on the table if they're not acknowledging that. And not only does it not threaten our progress toward racial and gender justice, it is of a piece with both of these. No question. Because it's also, if you give people a more secure foundation, gender, race, whatever, it doesn't matter what identity you are, the more that we are able to have people not feel like they are in quicksand

no matter their identity, the healthier we will be. It's, we have created, especially over the last 50 years, a top heavy society that is listing rather than looking at that foundational situation. But I like this very much. The only thing I didn't like, Sarah, and I'm going to be perfectly frank with you, we've become friends now. Lay it on me. Forcing me to think about Rush Limbaugh riding a horse. I did not care for that image.

I don't know. Now I'm going to have to have that in my head. My guess is I have a very crazy, shitty dream coming up tonight that I will have trouble making sense of that will include hopefully clothed. I'm so sorry. Rush Limbaugh. I'm so sorry. Uh, on a horse. Uh,

Sarah, I can't thank you enough. I think you've helped me clarify certain things about this conversation that is really important. And it's the last thing that I'll leave you with is we have to stop resenting people from pushing for their identities to be a part of this better life.

There is no reason to resent white working class as they try and get their way into that. We have to be inclusive means inclusive of as many people as you can fit onto that elevated track. And I think framing it that way and thinking about it that way has helped me differentiate

Because I was looking at it clearly from that side of it that you were talking about, which was that dissonance. Like, how do they not understand that those policies aren't better for that? But I think I wasn't clarifying that emotionally or identity-wise.

And that's I think that's such an important aspect of it. Can I add just one layer to what you just said, which is that while I'm with you about like, you know, let's welcome that identity and it's, you know, rightful points about where they've been unfairly on the losing end.

That's not the same thing as giving a pass to xenophobia or racism or sexism, misogyny and so on in the politics. But it's instead going to the foundation, the ground level of that person's experience and saying, I see it, I validate it.

And now let's build from there. And because it's in the lack of validation or being seen that those, you know, nastier permutations of the politics are enabled and manipulated. That's my point is if you give people a more solid foundation and maybe this is Pollyanna.

But my view is those politics of resentment that it's immigrants or trans people or, but that they're the reason why you're not getting it, that that will ease and that we will actually be easing two things at once.

That when you bring people up to feel seen, heard, but also solidify the ground that they stand on, make them feel that the working life that they've chose has a future. You will take all the air out of that resentment and xenophobia and all those other ills.

Maybe that's Pollyanna. Well, and you might even start with speaking to the millions of white working class people who aren't Trumpers. Believe it or not, they're out there. My family are among them. And make inroads in those communities and allow that to spread out. You know, I'm not a political strategist, but I know you got to go there and you got to talk to that group of people. And they've got some real concerns. Right.

Well, Sarah, I really appreciate you being here. We've been talking with Sarah Smarsh. She's a journalist. She's the author of Bone to the Bone, Essays on America by a Daughter of the Working Class. And it's much appreciated, Sarah. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, John. That was, boy, that just, that started cooking when I felt like I was in her class and

She was the professor and I'd been sitting there for weeks, like a dumb fuck. She's sitting there the whole time going like, I don't get any of this. And then like, there was one class or I just woke up and went, it's an identity. Oh, epiphany. You did the reading. Jillian, that really sums it up. I should have done the reading. We've all been told that. And, and I, and I, and I hadn't had you all, was that something that, uh,

seemed obvious to you guys that when it clicked for me or is it something that you also thought, oh, that's different? No, it definitely was different. Yeah. Yeah, it definitely differs from what I've been reading in the mainstream press about what happened. Right. There was no, you know, reducing this down to a group of people were not even addressed. Right. Why wouldn't class be what defines you when it defines your entire life? Right. It's your entire approach. Yeah.

your entire sense of security. But what's so interesting about it, and Lauren, to your point, there's so many things that people are writing about. Oh, you focus too much on identity. And really what the point is that actually you just don't have enough identities that you haven't considered

these other avenues in the same way with the same fervor that you defend other groupings that you look at as marginalized. Disenfranchisement and marginalization happens across a much broader swath than, than,

Perhaps, you know, for instance, why aren't short people talking about more? I was just going to say that. And their grievances. We need to be hearing their grievances. That feels personal. See, Brittany can walk away from that, not being a short person. Sorry, guys. That's okay. Hashtag blessed. Hashtag something.

I was trying to, the only other thing that I thought about is that dissonance, and Jillian, maybe you were, when she was talking about that, the dissonance between policies that actually address that, because that is the one thing, even with their identity, I am surprised that they align themselves, even identity-wise, with the Republican Party, because I don't see, I guess I don't see the policies that would make that

Well, her election diagnosis when she said that the Democrats may have all of these solutions, but the Republicans are the ones that are validating their pain, that really rang true to me. So when people's daily lives are marked by debt, unaffordable housing, unstable healthcare, the message of protecting all of these institutions that have failed you really falls flat.

And the promise to disrupt that system resonates with people across all identity lines, these traditional identities who've lost faith in those institutions. So it doesn't really matter if that force is one of authoritarianism as long as it's offering to do something.

And it would happen faster through authoritarianism. Yeah. No question. Gridlocked. By the way, Lauren, I think that's a very undervalued point. Absolutely. Well, I remember in the aftermath, I think of 2016, where they were doing surveys of young people and there was this weird shift towards the acceptance of authoritarianism and the underlying principle was like, at least something would get done. Hmm.

I think that's dead on right. I think if your message is like, we must defend democracy and everybody's like, I don't know, democracy seems to be doing a pretty shit job these days. Like I could see how they would think like, well, as long as it's an authoritarian, I trust then we'll all be okay. The problem is.

Doesn't always work out that way. And you may find yourself on the shit end of that stick. And that's why those protections are so important. But what I really loved about that experience with Sarah on the show is I felt like I had kind of a unifying theory of what I thought it was. And I thought she yes anded it and improved it and brought it to, I think, a much greater

a much stronger place. So I, I really appreciated that. Uh, it was, it was fantastic. Brittany, I've really appreciated people's feedback, uh, most recently. Well, do you want to hear some of their questions? Oh, sure. Yeah. Do they have, is there stuff that always, Oh, please. Always. Um, okay. Does the left need a Joe Rogan experience? What does that mean? Like, does the left need a Joe Rogan type of podcast? Um, or also how do they get their message out?

You know, there was a whole conversation like the left needs, who's the left's Joe Rogan? Oh, oh, oh. I mean, I think that's oversimplifying Joe Rogan. I mean, as somebody who does listen to Joe Rogan, like I don't think, like I don't know what I would necessarily classify him as. He has some ideas that I think are wildly progressive, other ideas that are probably I would less agree with. But I think what's interesting about Joe is talks to anybody.

He does it with a kind of a genuine curiosity, whether you, you know, I hate this thing we've gotten into of how dare you platform, you know, or do the like he's platform. He has a voice. We have a system that is capitalistic, that voices that resonate tend to be amplified. Bernie went on Joe Rogan, which I think was exactly the right thing to do. But it's all these people that have never really, I think, listened to

to him going, how do we get one of those? And you're like, I don't mean, I'm not even sure you know what that is. Yeah. You don't need your own. You just need to go on. Right. And also I think they always, that question is always framed in the negative. Like that's a shit thing and we need to counter it with a good thing of equivalent value.

And I think that's a mistake as well. I don't, I don't even, I wouldn't even know how to classify the things that he does and says, because the other thing to remember is in the world that we live in right now, right or left. The only thing I object to about this idea of political correctness is that it only comes from the left. In a world of constant comment, everything is attackable and everything will be attacked, whether it's from the left, from the right, things you agree with, don't agree with.

We are now an incessant shit-talking society. So my only complaint about it is that people somehow blame the left as like, we're the ones who complain about shit. Like,

I don't know, man. Look at my comment section. Yeah, they have their own purity tests on there. Thank you, Jillian. That's all. We brought you here today to cancel you, John. I do feel like this is one of those, it's like an intervention gone wrong where you're like, you need to stop drinking. And I'm like, but whiskey's so good. Yeah, that was terrible. Thank you guys as always.

Very, very interesting. Brittany, how can people keep getting in touch with us? Yeah, Twitter, we are Weekly Show Pod. Instagram, threads, and TikTok, we are Weekly Show Podcast. And you can like and subscribe our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. Yeah, do that. It makes us feel nice.

Thanks again, lead producer, Lauren Walker, producer, Brittany Mamedovic, video editor and engineer, Sam Reed, audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer, Jillian Spear, and our executive producers, Chris McShane and Katie Gray. So join us next week when once again, we will have a delightful conversation with somebody way smarter than me. And I always appreciate that. Thanks a lot. See you next time.

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