Biden 2024: It Is What It Is?
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are real. Discover something new every week. A mountain of movies awaits on Paramount Plus, now streaming. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the weekly show with Jon Stewart. I am Jon Stewart. We were off last week. It was July 4th. It was we celebrated America.

We celebrated the holiday of America with good cheer, with barbecues, with explosions, which in some ways feels prescient with where America appears to be heading in the present moment. Oh, my God, was that an explosion? What the? Oh, the house is shaking. Now, we are here, of course, with our super producers, Brittany Mamedovic and Lauren Walker. Guys.

We were going to do taxes. We were breaking down the tax bill that every American pays. We were going to show where it goes to, how it might be disconnected from the urgent needs of the people. And then there was a- Something happened? Wait, what? Lauren, that's exactly- It did? Brittany, yes. You're both, yes. You are both. There was a debate. No idea. We watched it. And since then, there's been an explosion of conversation amongst people, especially

online and within the beltway, apparently only elitists, by the way, apparently average people are not having this conversation. It's only elitists where there is a concern that the confidence in the current commander in chief may be, may be waning somewhat. And so we thought, well, shit, we should probably talk about that. Have you had, have either of you had conversations with, with,

family, colleagues, coworkers? Was this in terms of triaging your conversations, top of the list, bottom of the list, middle of the list? Where was it? I was doing what I watched my dad do during Mets games growing up, which was like lots of pacing and screaming. And I didn't really look at my phone.

So you're suggesting that this debate was the Mets game of political intrigue. Yes. Have people been, you know, in terms of post-debate, what's been the general tenor of the conversations? This is the first time I've come out from under my covers. No. I feel like I doom scroll on Twitter, which makes me sad. And then, you know, conversations are split. Honestly, there are people that are very much like,

Stop talking about it. Stop asking questions. Just get in line, support. We're voting for an administration, not a single person, is what I get told a lot. It is interesting, though, they keep saying, I keep hearing back when they were only talking about Trump, they were like, stop talking about Trump. And now that we're talking about Biden, they're like, fucking shut up. Talk about Trump. But we do have a good conversation today. We got some guys for it. So I'm going to jump in there and let's see where we go.

So let's jump right in with our guests for the week. Jon Favreau and Tommy Veeder, they're founders of Crooked Media, host of Pod Save America, authors of Democracy or Else, How to Save America in 10 Easy Steps, and Bakari Sellers, CNN political commentator and author of The Moment. Hello, everybody. Hello. Hey there. Hello, hello, hello. It is so nice to see all of you. Thank you so much for joining us. I think we should discuss maybe the, obviously, the kind of the elephant, the elephant in

In the room that's been occurring, Skydance has bought Paramount. Why would they do something like that? Let me Google. We're going to discuss the fallout from Joe Biden's debate performance and the general sense of the Twitter commentary that I should shut the fuck up. Tommy and John should shut the fuck up.

And Bakari is a very nice man who should continue talking. Would that about summarize the fallout from these situations? So, Tommy and John, I'm going to start with you. I think that the debate so shocked my mind.

conscience on what my expectation was that it felt to not speak out would be malpractice at some level. Is that what you were feeling as you watched it? What was your sense?

Yeah, I mean, I think we all watched it together. I think five minutes in, we were all watching from, you know, hands over our face, between our fingers. It was so much worse than I ever imagined it could have been. And it wasn't just bad, like a one-off performance bad. It was bad in the way that highlighted, I think,

uh joe biden's single biggest vulnerability which is his age and concerns about his ability to to complete four more years you know would have been like mitt romney driving onto the 2012 debate stage in a ferrari and just like chucking cash out of people right like

highlighting your vulnerability. And then it would have been so it would have been cool. Awesome. If he had just walked out and like, make it a rain, bitches. I know. Was that the first debate when he kicked you guys ass or not? Which debate are we talking about? Kicked our ass. But that was a that was but that's a good point, because that was an ass kicking in the sense that like Obama wasn't sharp. He didn't have his message down. He didn't seem like he came ready to fight and make a case against Romney. This was bad in that, you know, Biden struggled to

speak coherently and get sentences out and make an argument. And that to me was chilling. It would have been like if in that first debate with Romney, Barack Obama went out and said, look, I wasn't born here, but let me tell you something. You know, I'm not from here. I'm not from this country. I'm not from this country, everyone who's been wondering. But Corey, I imagine you didn't watch the debate and think to yourself,

He's killing it. But you had a very different response to what you were seeing. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, no, I think he got his ass kicked up, down, left, right, and sideways. I also don't think elections are won in June. I think that there is a great deal of...

Just over excitement by a lot of my friends on the left or over concern. I mean, it is what it is. I mean, people are talking about I mean, people are engaging in this fantasy fiction of this off ramp, this proverbial off ramp, whether it's not one. People are talking about this open convention, whether it's not going to be one. If, in fact, there is an opportunity for someone else to replace Joe Biden, the only person who has the infrastructure, the cash in order to do that or at least give us a chance to last four months would be Kamala Harris.

But I'm just very soberly saying we got our ass kicked in the debate, first and foremost. You know, we can have all of these conversations about Joe Biden needs to do this and Joe Biden needs to do that. But after July 22nd, if I'm not mistaken, or 25th, whenever we have the roll call, he is our nominee. So then what are you going to do? I'm resolved to the fact that we have three choices. We have Donald Trump. We have Joe Biden and the couch.

And whether or not I was at Essence Fest or whether or not I was fishing with my good friend Jared Lodeholt off a dock in Orangeburg County last week, the people I talked to are all saying the same thing. Like, let's just get on with it. I mean, we know what we're going to do. We know who we're going to choose. And it is what it is. I mean, we have bigger things that we're fighting for other than going back and rehashing the fact that our candidate is 81 years old, probably eats at Denny's, goes to bed at four o'clock and changes tennis balls on his walker. You just described my perfect weekend. Thank you, Bacar.

So I want to talk about, because I think, Bakar, you bring up a really interesting mindset. And I want to talk about that because I am of the opinion that democracy is not just under threat by authoritarians or by a Supreme Court that has decided maybe we shouldn't have left England in the first place and a monarchy is actually slightly preferable. But I want to talk about the phrase, it is what it is.

Because I think that that is a complacency that I have seen in the Democratic Party for a very long time. That includes Ruth Bader Ginsburg not retiring on time. That includes Merrick Garland not going after Donald Trump for January 6th on time. That includes not being able to get Merrick Garland onto the Supreme Court. That includes allowing Amy Coney Barrett to get onto the Supreme Court. That includes not being responsive to

to urgency and to new information and just saying it is what it is, guys, and shrugging. And I think my point is there is opportunity here. It may not be open convention. It may not be a new person to take on to the ticket, but there is a vibrant opportunity

And I think ultimately positive, at least conversation and acknowledgement to be had that is not being had because it is what it is. And what are you going to do? So I want you to respond to that. Yeah, I don't I don't actually mind the conversation. I'm not somebody who wants to put you and Axe and Tommy together.

and and john and the guys and and uh and tim put you guys on an island and just ship you guys off white guy summer white guy summer white white white boy summer you and chet hanks i know so i'm not somebody like i i appreciate the the thoroughness in which you're having this debate i'm kind of looking beyond that and into your is what it is your your kind of uh i

A monologue there. Look, the fact is you can go back to Rahm Emanuel not putting the impact on or the emphasis on the judiciary as he should have in Barack Obama not doing what he should have done in the judiciary or codifying Roe v. Wade or whatever he could have done when we actually had the House and the Senate in 2008. Those type of things, we can go back and relitigate those things under that mantra of it is what it is. What I'm talking about right now is very practically the choices we have before us.

And so I am geared up trying to prevent Project 25. I'm geared up trying to make sure that the things that we're talking about

the Chevron ruling, which I mean, I know that people are caught up on presidential immunity. The Chevron ruling, in my opinion, was more devastating to the fabric of democracy than anything we've seen in recent history. He's talking about the ruling from the Supreme Court, which made it much more difficult for federal agencies to regulate, whether it's the EPA or SEC or any of those agencies to regulate the people that they're charged with regulating, that they undercut those decisions from the Supreme Court.

And they did what they did similarly in Dobbs. They overthrew decades worth of precedent, which the Supreme Court is not necessarily known to do unless you're like Clarence Thomas and you're getting flowed out by your billionaire donors all over the country. And so, yeah, I think there are a lot of people who sit in my seat and they have a very sober look at where we are practically and say, I cannot afford in November to go back any further. We felt like 2020 we were on the precipice.

of a third reconstruction. And we missed that mark. And since that time, we've actually been going backwards. And I know that people just don't want to backslide anymore. And I feel like having conversations. But Biden is the president. If we're backsliding under Biden, you're saying we're. No, but I,

I can go through his list of achievements, but what we're talking about are the attacks on DEI. We're talking about the attacks on affirmative action. We're talking about how in Arizona they passed an abortion bill from the 1800s, how they passed Dobbs, how we just went through presidential immunity. I mean, there are cultural and policy initiatives that firmly make me believe that we've gone backwards. I mean, look at black homeownership. No, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying the administration is the administration right now. But John and Tommy, I want you to address this because-

What Bakari is suggesting is that he's being strategic, that this isn't about noticing that the president may no longer be up to the job. This is about staying with the status quo because strategically, I guess, and Bakari, tell me if I'm misrepresenting this, that gives us our best opportunity to win. And I think my point is, I don't know that that's the case. I think I would disagree that that's the best strategy. But what's your thought?

I mean, you would disagree and literally all of the polling and data available would also agree with this position as well. It's not fiction at all that Joe Biden could step down tomorrow. He could announce that, you know what, I have an important job to finish. I'm doing two jobs right now. I'm president of the United States and I'm running for president. And president of the United States is too important and I want to focus on that.

and I can pass it off to Kamala Harris or we can have an open convention, whatever he wants to do. He could easily do that tomorrow. And the idea that we cannot influence. Bakari just got very sad. That's not a real thing. It is a real thing. Bakari, why is that not a real thing? Why is it not real? Let me ask you this, Bakari.

Is it not a real thing technically, or is it not a real thing you think emotionally? Or technically, it's not a real thing? I think technically, emotionally. First of all, I mean, the way this works is, and I love the kind of land that we're living in, where one can assume that Joe Biden can say that I don't have the ability to run for re-election.

after I've already announced that I am, after I've done all of these things, raised all of these money, these monies, had the infrastructure around the country, but yet I don't have it in me to finish this campaign. No, he can say, I can't win. I can't win because all the polling says he can't win. Yet I can still be president of the United States. So those things are not, those things don't fly. He can't win. One's a multi-month job and one is auditioning for a four-year job. I'm going to also jump in and say, like, look,

Nobody actually knows. Now, things are looking dire for the president, but four months, I think any of us would agree in a modern media timeline, is four fucking ever. It really is. I think we confuse this idea. We just saw France lose terribly in the parliamentary elections last

Macron jumps out with a snap election. He jumps in there. Weeks later, they've stemmed the tide of Le Pen. I mean, it can be done. All right, we'll be right back. This show is supported by ZipRecruiter. If you're hiring for new roles, have you wondered how to find top talent before the competition gets to them? ZipRecruiter. And it's summertime, man. That's seasonal work. You're looking for your lifeguards, your ice cream parlor, your...

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Okay, we're back. And that's my point, Bakari. We are complacent. And that complacency sets in a cynicism with the American public. And I think you're giving us a binary choice that's not real. I don't necessarily agree, oh, Biden can't win or Kamala can't win. We just don't know. And the world changes so quickly and we don't know about those things. But here's what I do know.

It's not a binary choice. President Biden's defiance, I don't think, is the right strategy. I think the idea of not acknowledging the progressive and degenerative nature of what he's dealing with is gaslighting anybody who supports him. And this, of him going out there with bromides about, Joey, my dad said to me, Joey,

It's not about how you get knocked down. It's about how you get up. And you're like, I don't know that you can get up, sir. I think that's really not the metaphor you want to go with. And there's no shame in that. We all get there. So I don't understand. There is an opportunity here to have a more honest, adult, sophisticated, fuck the media, fuck whatever they're going to say.

You are in control of how this goes down. And I don't I think they're bungling even the response, Bakari. No. And so I don't I've never said this choice has been binary. In fact, I think people who analyze this race as being binary and I may have missed your point, have it wrong, because I've always said that and where I am right now today, the choices are Joe Biden, Donald Trump and the couch.

But that those are the three choices that people have in this race. And so I think I disagree with that. And I'm trying to figure out why you feel that that is that it is all etched in stone. Joe Biden owns this decision. And so if we want to spend our time pressuring Joe Biden, by all means, continue to tweet, continue to talk about it, do those things, take that upper level. I've never in the history of history seen a white man see that he's the most powerful man in the world, seen all of that power to anyone, let alone a black woman.

Well, Gandalf, I don't know if you remember Gandalf. I believe he. And two, I disagree with the political climate where anybody says that you cannot run for president, but you can still be president. Now, all of that's conjecture.

None of that is technical, but I have a, I know in the field- - But isn't that anybody who's already served two terms? I mean, they're president, but they're not running. If it's your second term. - But they're not quitting. That's a given. Like you'll be quitting the campaign. - John, you mentioned the French beating fascism. You know how they beat fascism? 210 candidates.

stepped down in various district races so they wouldn't split the vote against the far right. That is how the French beat the- - They put country over party. - They put country over party. And when Joe Biden is the official nominee, I will shut the fuck up and I will march and I will fight for him and I will knock on doors and I'll donate and do whatever it takes. But this is an extraordinary situation.

And it is time for courageous action. And we have a window between now and the official nomination of Joe Biden where we can do something that's never been done before in our history. And I just don't agree that a mini primary is fan fiction. I think you could find ways to compete for 4,000 or so delegates. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me finish this. Uh-oh. Yeah.

I'm not saying you're saying that. I think that's what's out there. Like, you could find a way to compete for those delegates. They will all get together at the convention in Chicago and nominate. But if Biden doesn't want to do that, he is an excellent communicator in Kamala Harris waiting in the wings. And I think the subtext you hear from a lot of Biden supporters, I'm not saying you, Bakari, is they're like, look, if Joe steps down, it's got to be Kamala. And she's bad. She's not good at running. I'm not saying bad. Yeah.

They're criticizing her, right? They are knifing her on background in these stories being like, Kamala's numbers are terrible. She can't win. Wait, the Biden administration is doing that? People in the Biden administration? Supporters of Joe Biden are absolutely backgrounding the press. Yeah.

Yeah, certainly. Yeah, they are. They did it publicly. They put out a memo where she was doing worse than him against Trump. That was the first memo they put out after the debate, which I wouldn't have done to my vice president. But here's all that matters. Yeah. Donald Trump is leading by more than he has ever led in a race for president right now. Right. He is leading by...

more than any Republican has led at this point in a race, in a general election, in 20 years. Okay? Since George Bush. So perhaps all the polling is wrong, but then you'd also have to explain why the same polls that have Joe Biden down, all these Senate Democrats in tough races are competitive. So then you say, okay, well, we got a couple months to turn around. Could he turn around? Yes. It's not that he can't win. It's the question is, is Joe Biden facing, we're facing Donald Trump.

And a threat to democracy, an existential threat to democracy, as we are all, as Joe Biden says. And the question is, is Joe Biden the best candidate to give us the chance? Does he give us the best chance to defeat Donald Trump, knowing that

He has not been formally nominated yet, and he could make the decision himself to step down. And you know what? Joe Biden, who is an 81-year-old white guy, Catholic, who became president, has moderated his views a lot and listened to people a lot in the last several years. And when progressives push him on something or moderates push him on something, Joe Biden listens and he takes in his advice, and then he makes decisions based on what people are telling him. So the idea that we, and I know that you said this is okay, but like,

in the next couple weeks the idea that we all don't have influence on this decision when we're talking to members of congress and then members of congress are talking to the president like i think it's worth making a run at asking him to reconsider this because

They haven't shown us a plan, the Biden campaign, of how they went. They haven't shown us any of their data. They haven't shown us a path they haven't made. They haven't talked about how he's going to turn it around. There's just been nothing. And like, I think it's weird that they think that the Joe Biden we saw on stage has a is a better has a better shot of beating Donald Trump than Kamala Harris, the first black woman vice president that he chose for the job, who is a fantastic communicator. Like, I just don't understand.

so let me there there are a lot of things a lot of nuggets i just want to jump i i it look if

if Joe Biden decides one morning he wakes up after Catholic mass, I think the most important day is actually, you know, Thursday, Thursday, if he's able to, if he, if he, if he goes out there and falls down literally then. Okay. But is that really where we're at? Is that the bar? No, I'm saying then, then he may be like, I'm not doing it. Okay. I don't know. But, but if he decides, then I want to push back on the fact that it's an open primary. It's not an open primary. It's Kamala Harris's race. I mean, she will be the nominee. And the,

And the fact is she should actually be president of the United States to make her stronger going into that. I mean, that's just as we're talking about. So, Bakari, doesn't that undercut somewhat your it is what it is? Like you're now laying out, I think, a scenario that's plausible. But I'm just also- And maybe even stronger. My complete thought is this. While you guys are launching a pressure campaign, which is effectively what it is. But I want to tell you something, Bakari. So this is what I would object to.

This idea that this is a pressure campaign, what it is, is a visceral response emotionally to something shocking that was seen. Joe Biden has run on this idea of honesty and decency, but they have not been honest about the condition and the difficulties that he has been facing.

And so it undercuts one of the foundational arguments that they even have made. So this is not a campaign. I am not working in coordination with various people. I have a platform and I have been stunned and disappointed.

and angered by what I saw and how I've been talked to that I didn't see what I saw. That's all. My point is you saw what you saw. You're outraged by what you saw. You have every right, all three of you all, to be as visceral and have whatever reaction you want to have to it. My only point is that there's going to come a point in time in the next two weeks where I am working over the next two weeks to try to get

Joe Biden reelected, right? That's my goal because he's the nominee. He's the presumptive nominee. If that changes, which I really do not believe it is going to change. But do you want it to change, Bakari? I guess is my question. Do you think we have a better chance if it does change, Bakari? I'm not sure. I really don't know the answer to that question. So it isn't what it is, is my point. But my point is that I think a lot of people have backup quarterback syndrome.

They really do. I agree with that. I agree with that. I'm a patriot, and we had a hot ass backup quarterback. I was going to say, but you don't know. You maybe have Tom Brady, or maybe you got Tommy Cutlets. You don't know until you throw them in there. Drew Bledsoe got a raw deal, by the way. I know. I love Drew Bledsoe. He got a raw deal. Is Drew Bledsoe the Joe Biden of this metaphor? Is that what we're? But my point is, everybody knows.

Maybe Kamala Harris is Tom Brady. Maybe so. Let me change the metaphor. Let me change the metaphor. And I'll throw this to John and Tommy. So we talked earlier about the French, you know, putting down fascism on the thing. I'm going to give you another metaphor about the French. In the 1930s, as Germany was building up their armaments, the French decided on a strategy to defeat fascism. It was called the Maginot Wall.

And they built it, and they were a series of giant concrete bunkers, stationary, with guns all pointing in one direction. And the Germans came through the area and went, oh, I think we can just go around this. And they went around it and then just fought and destroyed it. And that –

Can't that also be a metaphor that this idea of, no, this is our plan, it's rigid, it's status quo, it's all facing in one direction, and it's utterly incapable of holding off that onslaught.

And that was the last time they tried to defeat fascism. And guess what? They didn't. Yeah. I mean, I think my part of why I'm so concerned, Bakari, is because I watched the debate and I was like, man, that was really bad. But let's give him a little time to do some more things. Then I watched the ABC News interview. And frankly, it made me more concerned because it was at times incoherent. Again, during some of the radio interviews he did where it turns out his campaign actually gave

the host of the questions, like those didn't go particularly smoothly. Morning Joe wasn't great. And you could hear him reading papers. And so I'm like, I'm not trying to be a dick. Like I love a lot of love and affection for Joe Biden and people in that White House. But the guy has not been doing things off teleprompter. And he has not shown us that he can run the kind of campaign that he needs to run to win. And like you mentioned, a pressure campaign. I mean, I'm seeing quotes from state party leaders saying, look, we can't say what we really think. We

we can't articulate what the grassroots is saying because we'll get punished by the Democratic Party and we'll get robbed of resources. So that to me is kind of the worrisome omerta that's happening. And I'm sure, Bakari, you're probably seeing these too, but like the private polls are coming back, the internal polls from like

these Senate races and it's freaking people out. It's like Biden down 10 in Pennsylvania, Biden down six in Wisconsin, even as Bob Casey's up two and Tammy Baldwin's up three. And a lot of these House members are seeing it in their districts. Safe Biden districts are starting to look bad. New York? Like,

New York state. - Where do you guys see all this stuff? How come I don't get to see any of this shit? - I mean, but I also think that this is kind of siloed. Like this is kind of siloed. This is what happens when you gen up this type of, you know, visceral, maybe rightfully so hysteria. I mean, people literally- - You believe this is the tail wagging the dog, Bakari? - People are panicked, right? And they're panicked. And so you're seeing the reflection of that panic. - But Bakari, people are panicked for a reason. - Rightfully so, 'cause they saw it. I'm not disagreeing with that.

Okay. Benenson had a poll out. They did a post-debate poll. And voters who watched the entire debate prefer Trump over Biden by 51 to 46. Voters who didn't watch the debate...

are split 43 for Biden, 40 for Trump. So you actually, Biden did better with people who didn't watch the debate or heard about the debate than he did with people who actually watched the debate, which shows it's not the hysteria or the reaction to the debate that's worrying people. It was the debate. When was the last time a debate? Yeah, I know. When was the last time a debate dictated who was going to be president of the United States? And by the way, this is a question to John and Tommy, because I do...

I do have a scientific question. I was looking at all these polls come out about Senate candidates, and I saw one poll in particular where Tammy Baldwin was up five points or six points and Joe Biden was down five points or six points, which would mean in the state of Wisconsin, there are, the math is like 200 or 300,000 split ticket voters

which is something that's never happened in the history of mankind. Why do we think that the fundamentals of this race will be that vastly different when, to John's point, like, I hear you, John, like the undergirding foundation of who Joe Biden is, is honesty and decency, right? But you don't look at that in a vacuum. The question is tertiary, is three things. Like, do you think that he's more honest and decent than Donald Trump?

Or do you want to stay home? That's the scenario we're in after the Democratic convention. If Joe Biden's the nominee, like complete, I completely agree with that. But I hear you. That's before. I'm sorry. Yeah. Whenever he, whenever they do the roll call thing. I think it's too cynical. Honestly, I think that's the idea that like, Hey, it's, it's the, the, it's the almighty or the alternative or whatever the, the, the broad. Don't compare me. Don't compare me to the almighty. Compare me to the alternative. To the alternative. Look,

which is what I use with my wife and her ex-boyfriend all the time. Oh my God. Are you, Picard, are you getting primaried in your own marriage? No. Have you been primaried? No, no. What I've done is I've eliminated the opposition. I am selling to them. All right, we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. So, you know, when there's a large threat, there's two things that you define. You define the threat and then you define your defenses, right?

All I'm saying is if we are taking an honest look at what our best chance to defend ourselves against a perceived threat, I think we are selling ourselves short. And in a lot of ways, using, as Tommy put it, Omerta, to stifle what could be an incredibly productive, at least, conversation, even if Joe Biden came out and said, look,

I understand where I'm at in my lifespan and cycle and what I do. Here's how this government works. Rather than coming out and becoming Trumpian and saying, you think someone else could hold NATO together? They could never. Only God can tell me to get out of the race. Like,

If he were to come out and say, here's my team, here's how we hold the line, but we're not seeing any of that. Nothing that's been done inspires any confidence other than the fatalism of it is what it is. And this is what we're stuck with. And that's the part that I think has degraded people's trust in institutions and the government from the get-go.

That's a problem. I'm a blend of both. So it is what it is. And I'm working towards what I believe to be the ultimate goal, which is to defeat Donald Trump, while others are having discussions about the visceral reaction they add to the debate and alternatives. But I also think those discussions are decently healthy. Again, I don't I'm not trying to excommunicate the pod boys. I'm mad they were listed in an email, a blast email, right? I'm not. That's not the

I actually have a sticker that says pricks for Biden. Me too. You gave me one of those too. I think the discussion is healthy because I'm going to need all of you all if I'm going to win this race. And I'm going to need all of you all to want to put every ounce of your being in. Although we disagree on who the nominee is or who we believe the nominee will be, I am still working towards that same goal, which is to rid ourselves of fascism because I believe

After November, if Donald Trump is reelected, it can go really bad really quickly. Guys, let me ask you this. You know, when you talk about kind of ridding ourselves of that, what do I do with my anger at a Democratic Party that honestly has put us in this situation?

Rocking a hard place position that wasn't honest over this past year about what was happening internally at the White House, was not in any way preparing the public for Kamala Harris, wasn't doing any of that. There was a, I don't know if it's complacency or deceit or whatever it was, but a Democratic Party that missed all of the threats that were coming their way

and has left us vulnerable here. I just think, you know, I hear you there. I think Bakari's right that normally incumbent presidents run again. And I think President Biden... Although he said he would. Let's be fair. There was a suggestion that he would not run for re-election, that he would be the bridge to the next generation. I believe that at the time. He made it, by the way. Not a suggestion. He said it. Yes, but he never said, I will not run again. Anyway, step that aside. I think President Biden...

and his advisors took the wrong message from the 2022 midterms that this was somehow about support for the White House, when in reality it was Donald Trump helping elevate some really terrible candidates like Dr. Oz who got their clocks cleaned, right? And then he made his decision to run again. And it sounds, look, I don't know. I'm not around Joe Biden ever. I've seen him two or three times in the last six months.

But it sounds like the. That's a lot, Tommy. That's humble, humble, humble brag. Well, listen, we saw him at an L.A. fundraiser out here. That's just around the president a few times in six months. We had a couple of beers. Coors Light, though. Coors Light. Let me let me let me contextualize that. I saw him in person at a fundraiser and then I watched him on the debate. And the in-person fundraiser I saw in Los Angeles a couple of weeks before the debate was as bad as the debate.

Everyone I walked out of the debate with, John was there. We were talking to people around us in seats. In the fundraiser. People we didn't know in this fundraiser. And we were like, that was chilling. In fact, George Clooney just wrote an op-ed about how we need a new nominee. And he hosted the fundraiser and he just said the same thing in the New York Times, which is what everyone at the fundraiser thought. Everyone was there like, whoa, what happened? He had just flown back from Italy, right? So everyone was like, oh, he must just be so unbelievably jet lagged. But obviously there is a more...

systemic problem. Well, and that's why I don't think it was some, it's not some conspiracy. Like I, I saw him, I was at the White House and I saw him in December of 22 and I thought he was fine. He like, remember, he recognized my mother-in-law from meeting her in 2018. Like I was like, oh, he's not, he's not, I mean, he looks older and he sounds older, but he's fine. And then I saw him the, the night before the correspondence dinner and he looked like he did at this LA fundraiser and at the debate. And I was very worried. And then

And then the next night at the Correspondents Dinner, he gave a good speech. And I was like, OK, maybe he was just tired. So I do think people were wrestling with this, like, maybe he's tired, maybe. But like to your question about the Democratic Party, this is a decision that Joe Biden and his closest advisers have made and no one else like Joe Biden could have stepped aside. Like no Democrat wanted to challenge a sitting president during a primary because they usually you don't beat a

a sitting president, right? Joe Biden made the decision to run. He and his advisors made the decision to run again, even though he said he'd be a bridge, even though he selected Kamala Harris, who they could have built up and said, okay, now I'm going to pass the baton to you. He made the decision to run. And so we were all left to say, okay, the rest of the Democratic Party was like, all right, you guys are telling us you're the best chance. You're our best chance to beat Donald Trump again, to stave off fascism. We trust you.

It's on you guys. And then we got that debate. And then we got all the interviews afterwards. So it's like, I'm only interested in beating Donald Trump too. Like we all are. That's like the number. I'm terrified of what will happen if Donald Trump win. I just don't know that Joe Biden is our best shot to do that anymore. - When have we put points on the board?

When was the last time Joe Biden put points on the board? The State of the Union? You know what I mean? Like, what is the last good moment you guys remember? Well, State of the Union. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I try not to just stay tuned into the Washington Post in New York Times. Yeah, listen, it's, you know, the needle's going to move here and there. I think this is a macro view. This is what drives me crazy about Democrats, though, the frame by which we like, you know, I remember in October.

Right. Access Hollywood came out. Donald Trump was grabbing women by the pussy. Right. And then soon thereafter, the bottom fell out. Polls were showing that Donald Trump was getting his behind kicked, that all the Senate candidates were like, oh, my God, like this man cannot be at the top of the ticket. Rance Priebus actually walked up to the top of Trump Tower to try to convince him to drop out the race. Rance at the time was.

the chair of the RNC, and Donald Trump told him to go kick rocks, right? Go pounce him. Right. But what we saw after that, after he was resolved to stay in the race, we saw everyone then, I mean, and Republicans do this so well, they just fall in line. They don't fall in love. They gathered around, they got behind this guy who is a narcissistic sociopath, and they ushered him into the White House, right? Bakari, do you think that would have happened had the Access Hollywood tape come out

a month before the Republican convention back in 2016. And Rance Priebus and all those Republicans, Ted Cruz, who spoke at that convention and was like, spoke out against Trump at the convention, even though he later fell in line. Like this, it's a different scenario. I was like, where are you going with this? Where are you going with the Ted Cruz one? This is a different scenario. Like if we were, if we were, if this was October, this was the third week in October, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, right? Like we wouldn't be having this conversation. And Bakari, I would also suggest, you know,

Bill Clinton, on the eve of it all, it came out. He had had an affair. I can't remember. Jennifer Flowers, I think it was. And then it was the Paula Jones situation. And then there was the Monica Lewinsky situation. And Democrats did fall in line. I mean, people made, oh, this is terrible and I'm disappointed with the president. But ultimately, the Democrats did fall in line. I think that you are soft selling the more fundamental aspect of

of people viewing somebody who, I'll be perfectly honest with you, I don't know of a job interview that you could have gone on and delivered the performance that was delivered by Joe Biden and gotten a job.

And I'm not talking about the presidency. I'm talking about like cashier at Home Depot, like a job that you would not think, okay, that is the hardest job in the entire world. The only problem with that, John, and the only problem with framing it as such is the fact that you discount

everything that he's accomplished in the first three and a half years. No, I don't. I don't at all. But he's not running for what he did three and a half years. He's running for the next four. But nothing happens in a vacuum. And what we have to do is people just want to, my friends on the left, we want to only magnify what we saw at the debate.

which is fine. I get it. We're talking about age, but I'm also talking about the accomplishments prior to and the threat that is right down the road. And I think, I mean, we do ourself a disservice by saying our guy is old. We know that. He shuffles. We know that. It's not old. It's not. Bakari, I think. What is it?

It is cognitive decline. It's not just age. It's cognitive decline. Or at the very least, it's an inability to communicate, right? Like I'm not a doctor, but like he can't, we need the candidate that we run for president needs to be able to communicate effectively. That's just the most basic. It is part of the job. It's the most basic part of the job of being a candidate for president is you need to communicate effectively. And if you can't do that. Or reassure us that here's how we operate in that environment. But to suggest that this discounts three and a half years, it doesn't.

but it does give you a window into the next four. And if you look at his performance in 2020 versus his performance in 2024, there is inexorable decline. It's just, it's undeniable. So what I don't understand is, okay, fine. He stays, but deal with it head on. Stop pretending. Stop gaslighting. Like that's fine. Deal with it head on. That's fine. I don't want to silence the debate. I,

I think it's fine. I think it's healthy. Talk about it. Don't gaslight. That's fine. I'm cool with that. But I'm also saying that there is a fucking monster that is November 4th, 5th, 6th, whenever the election is. Yeah, we agree. I know. I know. And we're getting our asses kicked by the monster. That's the part. That's what we're worried about. We're worried about the monster. Listen, polls are reflection in time. And I do think that a lot of the hysteria that we are self-inflicting upon ourselves causes a lot of the reflection that we're seeing in these polls.

And I would also argue that in 30, 45 days, you're going to see a race that is once again, neck and neck and tight around the country. It's a very polarized, closely divided electorate. The safest bet is a close race and it's been a close race, right? But I have seen, and I've sat in these focus groups, you've sat in these focus groups for like the last several years and people just, they

They are concerned swing voters, undecided voters, young black voters, young people, Latino voters. They say over and over again, they're worried that Joe Biden's too old to be president. And they they they respect him. They don't like Donald Trump very much. They think Donald Trump's a liar. Some of them think Donald Trump's quite dangerous, but they're like, I don't think Joe Biden's up for it. And they've been telling us this for three years now. I can tell you anecdotally.

The individuals, like my mom and her friends, who were all in, responded to that debate with tears and with fears and with reality. And the administration's inability to deal with that honestly and forthrightly, to me, is almost more damaging than the actual debate itself. And it shows a disconnect with reality.

or an inability to be agile and honest. And that's more troublesome to me than almost anything else. Don't disagree with anything you said. My only point would be that my mom and her friends, who usually are the ones who determine who the Democratic Party nominee is, like the Black women in her chat group, they refer to themselves as the quote-unquote posse. They were hurt and

They were saddened. They said he got his ass kicked. They said he was old as hell. But at the end of the day, they were more resolved than ever to call their girlfriends and say, we're going to vote for him. And then one thing they admonished us or admonished me about was we don't need any more chaos. They don't want any more chaos. They're going to ride with Joe Biden and they don't want they don't want an open convention. They don't want to. They don't want any of that. But you don't think you don't think white knuckling it with Joe Biden is chaos.

But it's the chaos we know. I mean, I think that's a fair argument. That is a fair argument. That's fair. I'll take that. Bakari, one thing you mentioned, though, you mentioned like we're not talking about Joe Biden's accomplishments. And like, oh, look, we do a show a couple times a week. So we've talked about those accomplishments constantly. And I give Joe Biden a ton of credit. I mean, the global we, not USAID America. I give him credit for climate change, the infrastructure bill, Ukraine. Right. All the things he's done. Great.

But what is really glaring about this White House and Joe Biden himself is he does not have a message about the next four years. They are not talking about what he's going to do, why he's the only person he's going to do it. He is just like pointing to things he's done kind of angrily and being like, why am I not getting credit for holding NATO together? And

AUKUS, which no one knows what that is, by the way. It's a nuclear submarine deal with the Australians. How the fuck is that coming up in these conversations? Like, that's not your talk. I have voted in every election the past 20 years on AUKUS. The AUKUS caucus. We're the AUKUS caucus. The ship has sailed on getting credit from these things. Voters are like, we don't care. I wholeheartedly agree with you. And so prior to the debate, my main line was that I very rarely talk about Donald Trump and Joe Biden in the same sentence.

per se, as I characterize them, other than the fact that I felt both of them were prisoners of yesterday. I felt both of them just like, but it was for a different reason. Like Joe Biden has this weird nostalgia for, for like swimming in pools with pop pop, right? It's kind of freaky.

And then Donald Trump has this, he's like the king of white grievance from yesteryear. And I think that both of them have a fundamentally, Project 25 is what it is, but you take that away. Both of them have a hard time articulating a vision for the future. And that's when I think age matters. Because one is 78 and the other is 81. And it's very difficult when you're 81 or 78 to talk about a future that you may not be a part of.

And that is the prisoner of age. And so I agree with you wholeheartedly that I've been pushing them to lay out a vision for the future. And I don't know when they're going to start doing that other than our, you know, because right now they're kind of fighting front and back, side to side. I mean, they're so busy beating up on y'all and Jon Stewart that they don't have time in the day. And I remain optimistic, by the way. I'll wrap it up with this because I know everybody's got to get going. And I'm going to say this, Tommy, Jon, and then Bakari, you can have the last word.

With all the headwinds and obstacles in front of us, I remain incredibly optimistic about the resilience of the system that we're fighting over. I do believe that the challenges that are in front of us are

some of them intractable, but also, you know, I never, there's never despair in any of this. It is always, all right, I guess it's buckling down. So I would ask you guys to maybe answer the question, what about the resilience of this system still gives you a hope in that? I mean, I do think you make an important point that it's, we can't all speak in apocalyptic terms, and the left and the right does this. The country will exist the day after the election if

Donald Trump is president. I do think he might

might change core things about our democracy that we can't undo and just fundamentally change the character of this country. And so that's why I am happy to be the stupid pod bro cracker talking about this now because I do think the risk is real. And if Barack Obama lost to Mitt Romney, there would have been a different policy agenda implemented. I think Donald Trump could change the character of the country in a fundamental and dangerous way.

I think we have, there's two choices, right? You quit and then bad shit happens or you try and fight, right? And I think that's what we're all trying to do right now and trying to stave off the threat of Donald Trump again. And I think what makes me optimistic is like when you talk to voters, right, voters, and

I know they drive everyone crazy. They're complicated. They don't follow politics very closely or the news, but they're sensible and smart and know what they see. And when you make a persuasive case that is rooted in honesty and reality to voters, you do have a chance to change minds and change minds, meaning get people off the couch to the polls or get people to change who they're going to vote for. And so I never want to give up on that. And that makes me hopeful. But I do think

You have to make an argument to voters that meets them where they are and is based in reality of what they saw, which is why the Biden maintaining Biden as a nominee worries me. That said, if he makes the decision, if he refuses to step down and he makes the decision, then like we will make an honest case to voters, which is like, yeah, Joe Biden's too old to run for president. But Donald Trump is too dangerous to be president.

bakari yeah i feel like i'm kind of there um but i i think what gives me hope and i think what we underestimate sometimes as we are evaluating this is king used to talk about and he talked about it and i have a dream speech and everybody remembers like that rhythmic cadence if i have a dream that one day we show but we forget about the most important part of that speech when he talks about the fierce urgency of now and i think a lot of times we discount the urgency that many people

in the electorate, voters have. As we talked about, as you talked about, your mom and her friends or your parents and their friends and my mom and her friends, the sense of urgency that people have. And my hope comes from the fact that I believe that there are more people who want to see this country move forward than take it back to a place that is

is dangerous for us all. It's dangerous because of who you love. It's dangerous because you're Jewish. It's dangerous because you're Black. It's dangerous because you're a woman. And I think that there are enough people who have that fierce urgency of now that after we get through this little inter-squad squabble that we're going through right now, you know, whoever comes out the tent on the other side, his name would be Joe Biden, we'll rally around him, we'll carry him to the finish line. Like, you know, like the old great man that he is. Right.

It always, it always reminds me, you know, they say that what's the quote, the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. And, and what we all have to remember is, and there's a good percentage of people trying to bend it back the other way. And it's a lunch pail job to keep it bent. And no matter what happens, I don't think that job goes away. And I think that's probably, uh,

where we end. But gentlemen, I want to thank you all very much for joining us. Of course, we have Bakari Sellers from CNN and political commentator and author of The Moment and Jon Favreau and Tommy Veeder, founders of Crooked Media, hosts of Pod Save America and authors of Democracy or Else, How to Save America in 10 Easy Steps. So thank you guys very much. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you guys.

Oh, man. That's feisty. Yeah. There was a good amount of feisty. That was hot. Bakari wasn't. He wasn't having it. We're lucky that we were in separate studios. I was afraid one of the pod guys was going to get wedgie. I think he was going heavy on the, listen, you nerds. You pod boys. You pod boys. They was coming after me. The administration is so angry with the pod boys. And Jon Stewart. Bakari.

But I actually thought it was a good articulation of kind of the positions there. And I think the, it really is that it is what it is, is the part that I think I find so difficult. Like that idea that if you're not, it is what it is, then you are somehow a fantasy fanfic West Wing toady. I don't know.

How else to put it? Well, when you do go down to the logistics of actually switching the candidate, you start wondering, would this happen? Right. But it can. And you remember, oh, right, conventions, they used to not actually have a candidate sometimes until after the convention. There is this idea that I think they are discounting just how much in a modern media environment, how long four months actually is. Four months is not the theme anymore.

And by the way, Republicans wouldn't throw up their hands. They would just fucking bear down and get done the thing they wanted to get done and apologize later. Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. And they would get it done and somehow end up at the Supreme Court with it being fine. Like that, it's the complacency. And that's the part that just...

It buries my soul. Yeah. It makes me very sad. I just, we've stopped being able to have conversations at teams or even just like raise our hand to be like, this feels uncomfortable. It's just very much like shut the fuck up and get in line. Right. Which by the way, it's interesting they brought up, he said, you know, there's a pressure campaign to get Biden to drop out. I would say the opposite. I think the pressure campaign is way...

Boy, it's more like a power washer coming the other way. Like, hey, I don't know if this guy can. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bad scene. But I think it would be a healthier outcome for democracy if it showed some ability and flexibility and did not continue around this feeling that it's very rigid and disconnected from democracy.

real concerns, but we will get to all the topics though. Oh, go ahead. I was just going to say if the campaign recognized reality and addressed it, exactly. We would be in a different place. But to all the people that are concerned about some of those issues that we had raised that are going to be coming up on the podcast, they will. We do this every week, every fucking week.

Yeah, baby. We are out here day in and day or day one a week and day one a week. We're going to get to all those great topics. And thank you once again for listening. As always, thanks to lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mamedovic, video editor and engineer behind the glass, Rob Vitola, researcher Jillian Spear. Oh, audio, editing and engineering Nicole Boyce and the EPs Chris McShane and Katie Gray.

As always, Brittany, you got the socials on there that we do? I do, John. Twitter, we are Weekly Show Pod. Instagram and threads, we are Weekly Show Podcast. And on YouTube, Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. I'm on all of those and including MySpace. All right, kiddies. To next week. Next week. And beyond.

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