Songwriting Realities, Creative Hurdles and The Rise of Aldean :: Ep 31 Try That in a Small Town Podcast
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I was going to ask you guys something because that's a you know what you guys do for a living obviously is cool to a lot of people right do your kids think you're cool we're probably the only part of the music and entertainment industry that you can actually suck and still get paid we did multiple showcases with Jason for labels record labels like hey he's trying to get a deal so we invite capital records out or whoever it was at the time

But a lot of the times, Michael would schedule rehearsals for us just so he could feed us. He knew that's how broke we were. That's true. He's like, we don't even really have anything, but I'm going to put this on the tab and I'll get you guys a meal. The Try That in a Small Town podcast begins now. Try That in a Small Town

All right, everybody. This is the Try That in a Small Town podcast. We're coming to you from the Patriot Mobile Studios. Oh, it's still, it's never going to get old. It still sounds good. It will never get old. They're offering a pretty awesome deal. If you go to patriotmobile.com forward slash smalltown, you can get a free month. You can get a free month from them. Just use the promo code smalltown.

Go to FletcherEatMobile.com forward slash small town. Yep. It's a pretty good deal, right? I recommend everybody try that. You see what I did there? Yeah, nice, Neil. You see what I did there? I'm going to go counterclockwise. That was thrash. Come on. Oh, what are you changing it up? I'm changing it up. K-Lo. Yeah. TK. I'm Kurt. This is a Try That in the Small Town podcast. What do you think, guys? Well, I think we're still basking in the glory.

of the uh the election yeah it still feels like christmas it does yeah it feels like christmas but it's actually thanksgiving i think it's it'll be thanksgiving week never too early it's never too early to celebrate christmas we should have hung lights in here do you guys like thanksgiving

Isn't it your second favorite holiday? It's the whole part of fall. Yeah, it's one of my favorites. I like Thanksgiving because you can use your Halloween pumpkins and it still is seasonal. It works good. So you don't have to throw them away yet. Didn't expect that answer. As long as you don't put the faces, you know.

That didn't work. Just turn them around? Just turn them around. Does your family do traditional Thanksgiving? Is it turkey? Yep. And the fried turkey. We have regular, but we do the fried turkey. That's not traditional. My brother's really good about doing... That's not traditional. Who fries the turkey? Corey, my brother. He's really good at it. Yeah, because I can't see you...

lowering a turkey no but i stand there i help i stand there and talk to him sometimes i'll run and get some oil or something all right some paper towels i'm very handy well happy thanksgiving everybody neil what do you got there you got something draped on you yeah i'm kind of down i've got my my rack here

But I'm kind of down because I was sitting where Kalo is sitting today, and I got here early, like three or four hours early to the Patriot Mobile Studios, and I was trying to write a song, and I'm on the phone with Kalo the whole time, and he never tells me that he's got a great song idea. He just holds it.

to himself all day and i'm trying to i'm trying to write and make make some money make a living and he helped and he and he blames me for not asking him if he's got a song i did i'm like what are you talking about you're going to the end of the story like we were on the phone for a long time and you were making deer jerky you know it was cooking i'd already put deer jerky on you're still doing the jerky had been on all day and then i came up here to write to kill time try her

Weren't spending the dryer. You know how much money I spent on that deer trying to, you know, get some jerky for you to take home? No, I don't actually. I'm going to pay you for it. There's a lot of money that goes into killing one deer. Yeah, that's why I'm paying you for it. See? A lot of money. But I just learned just a little bit ago before we started rolling that you were working trying to write a song. I didn't know that. I didn't know you were trying to write. You didn't say anything about it. Where did you think I was on a Tuesday morning? You were making jerky. The jerky was cooking by itself. I wasn't making jerky. I was done making jerky. Nope.

Nope. You didn't hear my guitar strumming in the background? No. Really? No, I didn't hear it. It's because you have those radiation ear pods in your ear and you can't hear anything. No, I could hear. That's the problem. No, I didn't know you were writing. This is a day in the life of a songwriter. Bet piece a little bit. No, it's fantastic. That's everyday songwriting right here. Well,

Yeah, we don't really have a guest, obviously, but you've got us for it, which is amazing for you. We've had some questions about, you know, we've been in the studio starting the new record and what that process is like. And it's interesting. I think people would like to know what that's like. And I'm sure what they think it's like is not at all what it is. You know what I mean? Yeah, give them a little insight. It's a very fast-paced process.

the way we do it. Yeah, and to interject, like when we were kids and you heard of somebody making a record, they'd be in the studio for the year or six months making a record. They'd hold up somewhere, hash out songs, whatever, six, nine months, they make a record. That isn't the way we do it. No, I think, and we've been together so long too in the studio band that makes these records. When we started this in the late 90s,

It wasn't much different than it is now. I mean, I think what people don't realize is a lot of times records are made. It's not always the whole band on the floor in the studio recording at the same time today. A lot of times it's, you know, they'll get the drums and they'll do guitar separately with Jason. We still do it. Everybody, uh,

at the same time. Y'all been doing this ever since the beginning, the same process, right? Same process, same studio. And we're on album number... It's 12. Number 12. Oh, geez. I didn't even know that. Wow. Yeah. I think about that. That's a lot. It is. And it's... Yeah, since the...

have the mid to late nineties, same studio, same engineer. Um, same players, right? I mean, it's not just you guys. Y'all hire a couple of guys to come in and jam with you. Right. Yeah. It's Jason and me and Kurt and rich in there. And then we supplement with, you know, another guitar player, Adam Schoenfeld and Mike Johnson on steel and Danny Raider on acoustic and Tony Harrell on keys. And it's been that core. I mean, really just for a very, very long time. Um,

Most of those guys from the very beginning. You feel that? Ain't broke. Yeah. That's kind of it in this studio, dude. It's not like what most people think this glamorous studio is. Have you guys been over there? Oh, Lord, yes. The only thing I miss in that control room is cigarette smoke. Yeah. Because it should have it. Yeah. It's old, but it's got some character to it. And like you said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yeah, and the thing about Michael Knox, who's been...

Michael really, he gets credit for the whole image. Not the image, but the idea of the band and the idea of a country singer with a rock and roll band. And this is how all this started. And Michael's the first one that took us in to start doing demos in the 90s. Michael's not a, like he's not like a musician per se. He's more of a song guy, a song producer. Like a Rick Rubin in the country world, I'd say where it's like to Michael,

If it feels good, it's better than if it's technically right. And for someone like myself, who's a perfectionist to the core, it's like it can be frustrating. It's like, man, I'll be like, I don't know if that's even right. But Michael's like, it feels great. You know what I mean? And there's a magic to that with Jason. You can listen to those records and

They're not perfect. They're imperfectly perfect. It feels good and it's got that right energy. But it's fun. Oh, it's been great. I was going to ask you guys something because what you guys do for a living obviously is cool to a lot of people, right? Do your kids think you're cool? Or are they at the ages where you're just dads? They used to.

you know it doesn't really matter what you do you know well i think you know our kids i mean they're so they grew up with it when they were babies and so it's it's they think it's very cool and they love it but i think it's also a distorted vision of reality to an extent you know they're growing up backstage on the bus and um so yeah it's it's i think with levi it's more his friends think it's cool

Yeah. That's the thing. It's like he just thinks, you know, that's my dad. I mean, like Tully said, it's just always what he's known. But I think because his friends say, oh, man, your dad.

I think, you know, it's cool that way. I bet Al Dean's a dork to his kids in reality. Not knowing how cool their dad is. I bet he's a dork. It's just an interesting – it's a great question. It's an interesting question because, yeah, when you grow up around it and it is all that you know, it's – I don't know if cool is the right word because it's not unique to the kids. Yeah.

It's just what they know. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely, you know, I have memories of both my kids, you know, just at every show, they're not even walking, you know, that's how long for them. That's part of their life. So, but they, you know, they still love coming out and, you know, seeing it. And it's just part of their makeup now though, you know, so it's,

Not so much when we were kids. I couldn't imagine that. How has the catering changed over the years in the studio? In the studio? Yeah, in the studio. I know y'all have catering brought in. I like that. Yeah, I mean, I probably used to be heavy. Back in the early, early days, there was a place called La Paz. Remember that? Oh, yeah. You used to always get Mexican, and yes, it was heavy.

It's actually not, I wouldn't say it's glamorous to catering. It's very basic. As a matter of fact, for a long time, it was just some grocery store chicken, fried chicken, cold, just brought in. Maybe some fruit. Yeah, that was about it. Really? Yeah. And we don't stop. Oh, we loved it. Yeah. Back in the early days, I mean, that's how we ate. So it was very exciting. You know, free food.

There it is. Yeah, Tully mentioned Michael Knox. He obviously found Jason, had the vision for the career. There was multiple times. We've talked about this a lot. We did multiple showcases with Jason for labels, record labels, like, hey, he's trying to get a deal, so we invite Capitol Records out or whoever it was at the time. But a lot of the times, Michael would schedule rehearsals for us

just so he could feed us. He knew that's how broke we were. That's true. Like, he was like, we don't even really have anything, but I'm going to put this on the tab and I'll get you guys a meal. And for those of you out there who don't, a showcase, this doesn't really happen much anymore, but back in the day, like if you were a new artist, you do what's called a showcase and you'd work up five of your songs and you'd, you know, get the band together and you'd

set a date and you'd go down to a local music hall or bar and you'd invite label presidents out and A&R people and you invite them and they come listen to you and decide, pretty much decide your fate in 25 minutes. And I'm not kidding you.

We easily set the record for that. For getting passed on? Yes. I'm not joking. Was it 30? It was at least that. I mean, we joke about it, but it's a lot. Damn, that's hanging in there right there. Yeah, so Jason Aldean, he got rejected by the same label multiple times and multiple labels. And the funny thing is about those days is that we were playing songs like Why.

and amarillo sky and johnny cash in these showcases in the late 90s to early 2000s and i don't hear a hit i tell you no i didn't know that that that's interesting yeah they didn't get and in those days i remember in the early days they're like jason wore a baseball hat

Or he didn't wear a hat. And they're trying to figure out, well, put a hat on. Take it off. Put the baseball hat on. Well, and you guys remember in the mid-90s, everybody wore a cowboy hat. That was like the guy. That was what you did. And so they were like, ah, maybe we're going to have him be unique. So he's going to wear, like Tully said, he's going to have a baseball hat. Or maybe he just doesn't wear a hat at all. And through a few years of that, he's like, man, screw that. That's actually what I am. So I'm going to do that. And then it worked. Yeah.

But, you know, we got passed on over and over and over and over again. Thank God for Benny Brown. Well, that and Knox too, because it was like, I think what Kurt said is true. Like there were some dark times where there wasn't anybody asking to see us play, to see Jason play. And Michael would be like, hey, we got to go rehearse. Let's go take the band and go into SIR rehearsal studios for three days and work up some songs.

And we knew there was nothing on the horizon, but we'd get paid $150 to go in for a couple days. And for us then. Yeah, $150, that's a lot of money. Yeah. Not like a lot of money. A little bit of whiskey, a little bit of food. Mainly whiskey. I remember singing demos for $40 a song. When you got down? Yeah. I mean, people started hiring me to sing demos. It was $40 a song.

I thought that was like, that's great. Heck yeah, I'll go sing a song for 40 bucks. That's easy. I'll do that. Do you remember any songs that you sang on that became hits? Let's see. Or artists? Like what artists were they? Yeah, Michael Delaney had a song I sang one time. There's been a few. Yeah. Of course, all the ones that I've had, I sang the demo on. Yeah.

But before that, I know Michael Delaney had one that Colin Ray did. It was the number one, I think, for me. Yeah, I sang the demo on that one. But there was a lot of demo singers when I was doing it. So, I mean, if you got called to sing a demo, you were like, yep, I'm in. Do you remember which Colin Ray song was it in this life? It was The Heart Wants. It's amazing that I remember that. I can't even believe I remember that.

Me either. I can't. It's amazing. I don't remember.

And Brad's house is on the farm, you know, so I guess he would eat at some point, but there never was like food, you know, like catering. That was a big thing. And generally we're writing and then he's just recording something.

So Luke was new to the scene, and we'd been there a good 12 hours. And Brad, he just doesn't think about eating. He'll eat eventually, but he's working. He's just working and not thinking about eating. Me, I'm always bringing snacks and stuff. So Luke, I could tell he was hungry. Finally, he looked over, been there about a good 12 hours. And Brad walked downstairs or whatever, and he looks back, and he goes, man, what about food? What time does food come? And I said, oh,

oh, there ain't no food coming. He goes, really? Then Brad comes back in and he goes back in the vocal booth and I'm about to leave and I went by and I had my backpack with me and I pulled out a couple of power bars and I slid it over across the board and I slid it over to him and I said, tell no one of this. You know, our gasoline in there is coffee.

I mean, I don't need food. I don't really, if it, if food's there, fine, whatever coffee. Yep. I mean, when we're working, we are plowing through some coffee. It's copious amounts of coffee. No telling the gallons. It's not even, and it's just habit. It's like, I don't even, I'm going to the coffee machine. I don't know if I want it. It doesn't matter. It's happening.

More. Yeah. I mean, how much coffee do we drink when we're working? Seriously. All of it. All of it. Yeah. There's a lot of water in there. You're hydrating and dehydrating. No, we do. It's actually an unhealthy amount of coffee. No, no, no. There's no such thing. Okay, good. Yeah. I read that somewhere. I'm going to go with it. Coffee is good for you. There's a lot worse things. No.

Kayla, what was the first hit you had or number one you had with Paisley? He didn't have to be. He didn't have to be. And was that your first number one? First number one. It was December. It peaked December of 99. Okay. So before that, you're just making a writer's salary or draw. Yeah, like a draw. And you had a couple cuts. I think the first cut I ever had actually was with Brad. We're trying to write for him. He didn't even have a record deal.

and it was a tracy bird tracy bird cut you know it's called i still love the nightlife i don't know if we made money on it or not i don't think we did i never saw it because you didn't recoup so you're getting paid a little bit but you're not making enough to recoup people probably don't understand when you become a songwriter and we say you get a draw you know you might think that's a salary but it's not right the word recoup the word recoup is a it's a good word

On our side sometimes. Yeah, when you're a publisher. It's not a good word. No. So, Caleb, explain to the listeners, I think they are interested in this, because how many times do you hear someone say, you should sell your songs? How much did you get for that song? It's the only word in a publisher's contract that's all caps. Yeah.

Yeah, well, generally, like if you come to town and as things get better, contracts change. But generally, if you come to town, 100% of your publishing is going to that publisher. You're getting an advance, right? Or a draw. And let's say it's $20,000 a year, you know, or let's 40. Let's say we're living a little better, right? So it's 40. And then you've been there for a couple years. And so you're, or you've been there three years. And let's say you're,

120 grand in the hole then you get a song on outing record and uh that song let's say for the sake of math it's nine cents is what you get per song per sold song right that somebody purchases right download whatever a mechanical royalty and so there's a million of those let's say a million there's really that's great okay so that's 90 that's 90 000 total for that song

Well, three of us wrote it. Okay. So it's 30, 30, 30. So you only got 30 in your bucket. You write for a publisher. So 15 goes to the publisher to recoup your 120. Right. And so it takes a very long time. So you really have to have radio hits with a co-pub. You have to own some publishing to recoup. And it's hard to recoup. It takes a minute. Yeah. People think you have a number one. You're rich. Woohoo. You can retire. Yeah.

I think everybody thought that. I even thought that. I did too. I thought if I had one, I'd be set. And it's even harder now to be completely transparent with our listeners. I know what they think the business is sometimes is different, right? So as a songwriter right now, the only way to really profit is if you have a song on the radio.

Honestly, unless you have a song that's streaming billions and billions of post-sum loan or something. You could maybe do that, but streaming doesn't pay us. The radio airplay is how we see some profit. That's the mailbox money. That's what you want. And it doesn't go through anybody. It goes straight to your house. And it's challenging today too. Look, we're in the town with the greatest songwriters.

And it's why we're blessed to have Jason, to have this outlet to radio. As a new songwriter, I couldn't imagine, honestly, as a songwriter, just moving here and

trying to figure it out i know we've talked to a lot of them that have moved here and had a few cuts and then they get in the room with somebody that had hits in the 90s in the early 2000s and they find out you made how much yeah i know when they were selling cds yeah and albums and even going back to vinyl when they were actually selling a product you could hold in your hand

They're blown away. Yeah. They're like, what? I moved here for what? And I missed it? They missed the party. And I hate it for them. And it worries me too because I'll be, we wear a lot of different hats. You know, players, studio, songwriters, we're producers and publishers. When we wear the songwriting hat though, to be honest, like I worry about honestly like the incentive to,

to give a new artist a really great song or write with a new artist and give them a really good idea when you're really shooting for

you know, Aldine. And if he doesn't want to, hopefully Blake Shelton or, or urban or Kenny Chesney, we got a shot to go to radio. The guys that still look for outside songs, or at least have a shot to go to radio. Yeah. You know, so, you know, cause a lot of these artists today might, they might just be streaming, trying to build up their name, build up their career. And you're sitting there, you've got X amount of great ideas.

And it's, I hate that that feels like that sometimes. And it does like, it's just business on this end of it. You know what I mean? You know, and this is kind of interesting too, like, uh, and I'll ask this question and we can expound, uh, Oh, did you move to Nashville to become a hit songwriter? Nope. Did Kurt, did you, did you? No.

No. Telly, did you? No. Most of them didn't. I didn't either, but yet we're all hit songwriters. It's kind of fascinating because the majority of the whole industry, the people who run labels and publishers and everything, they move to town a lot to be singers, songwriters, anything, but doing what they're doing, they end up being publishing moguls and stuff like that. So it's kind of an interesting job to where...

I don't think people, I didn't even know that you could be a songwriter and make a living at it. I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't learn that until I went to Bill Maher. There's a lot of songwriters. There's a lot of artists, I should say, that come to town and songwriting ruined your career. It absolutely destroyed my career or my intended career. Thankfully, it did. Mm-hmm.

I wouldn't be writing songs if it wasn't for my wife. She hadn't set me up and saw something in me that I didn't see. Say that again, though. What did you say? Ruined your career? What did you say? Songwriting ruined my artist career. Ruined your artist career. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, that's what I meant. Okay. Can you still find the Thrasher...

Oh, heck yeah, it's out there. I know it's on YouTube. Get it. We know that for a fact. I know y'all sent me a video. It's in the Russell file. It's a cult following. But is it on Apple Music or Spotify? I have no idea. Jim says it is. It is. That's fantastic. I have no idea. You brought up a great question, and it made me just reminisce about something. Yeah.

I moved to Nashville to play on albums. I wanted to play, I mean, I wanted to play bass on albums. That's what I wanted to do. I'd played in bands as a kid. When I turned 21, moved, I wanted to play on albums. And I really wanted to be in a band kind of like Tom Petty, you know? And I was thinking, I was, how lucky and blessed to, you brought up a good point. Did I move here to be a songwriter? Not really, but yeah.

It's amazing when you get with the right people, how much your dreams can come through for you though. You know, it's a, so I always hate to tell people don't move here because I'm a, I'm a product of things working out. You're a product of things working. We're all a product of that. Right. So, you know, I don't want people to, to cause I did go through a phase where I would tell young bass players, don't move here. Don't move here. You know, because it's, it's you know,

Well, you know, to be fair to you, some of those people you probably told, they shouldn't have moved. I think that's some of my problem as a... You can't tell somebody not to. Well, you're right. But, you know, if you see somebody that, I mean, you got to come here and grind, right?

in all ways like it didn't just happen it's like okay no we didn't move here to be songwriters and oh look at that I just wrote a hit no it just it doesn't happen that way or to play on albums or to get to play with Jason Aldean a lot of it is luck and circumstance but you have to

Do all the work to be ready for that circumstance. There is grinding. It's always about doing, you got to work. In my case, it was always something that happened that I wasn't expecting, either by accident or...

meeting Lana, my wife. But you were ready for the moment. Yeah, I was always ready. Yeah. But it never happened like you think it's going to happen. Yeah. That's because you're not in control of it. But God had you in the right spot. Exactly. Yeah. For success to happen. I backed into Wendell Mobley's pickup truck in County Q Studios one day. Is that how you met him? That's how we met. I backed and crushed his grill. That's a good move. And Wendell Mobley, for the listeners, y'all wrote

went fast cars and from that day on we wrote there goes my life more than half of my writing career has been with him yeah is it because you owed him money for the truck he actually knew lana before i did okay so you know and i left a note and i went around all the rooms in county q studios all the different rooms that people were singing in vocal booths and stuff but i went in the one that he was in i did not go to that one and i left a note on the window

With my name and number. You're a romantic thing. I know, right? Well, God's got a great way of doing that. But also, I agree with Kurt. If you're not the one working the hardest, then you're already putting yourself behind the eight ball. I always looked at it like that. I remember when we were playing showcases, what we talked about earlier for...

We wouldn't just do that for Jason. We did that for numerous people, you know, Lee Bryce and those guys. And it ran when everybody's trying to come up and they were young. I remember we would like me and rich and Kurt were living in the same house back in those days. And, and we go do a showcase with somebody and we'd come back that night and we'd start working on the songs for the next one. And I never wanted to, I always wanted to know the songs, um,

and make it feel like we were their band, that artist band for that night. So we never had music stands in front of us, reading the charts. And we always learned the songs and performed because I always thought that's what they deserved. And it was a lot of hard work. But that hard work, people would say, wow, you guys know those songs? Like, oh, we learned them.

We didn't just write down music charts or number charts and read them. We put the work in. And I think all that stuff adds up to giving yourself a better shot in the work ethic. And I try to tell my kids that, don't get outworked. If you get outworked, that's on you. That's the one thing you can control. God's going to give you these chances and these tools, but he's not just going to tap you on the shoulder and it's all going to be good. You've got to be the hardest worker ever.

That's how I've, at least in my thoughts, that's, you know. Well, if you have, you know, a little bit of talent toward what you're going toward, and then you have a great work ethic, and then you're stubborn as all get out and you refuse to leave, something good probably will happen eventually.

maybe five years, maybe 10, who knows, you know, but, but I would, I would encourage like writers, singers, musicians, whatever. If that's your thing, if that's all you can think about and, and people, not just your mom and dad, but other people say, Hey, you're really good. Not just your boyfriend or girlfriend, you know, somebody, you know, get in front of somebody to listen to your song or your voice or your playing or whatever. And if people are like, Hey man, he's pretty

Pretty dang good. Well, this town's going to let you know. You know, you got it, but you got to, you got to move to give it a real chance because nobody's going to be passing by your porch in Oklahoma on the side road and you're playing Doolin banjos and they're going to hear you play these amazing licks and sign you and say, Oh, you're the one we've been looking for. It's just not going to happen. You've got to move. You know, you gotta, well, I think you gotta move. I think even on the player end of it, like I tell young players, you know, you gotta move. You gotta, and it,

For me personally, and I think we're very similar, there was no backup plan. No problem. Wow. You know, they have a vibrate function on that Patriot mobile phone there. No, there was no backup plan. It was like music or I don't know. I mean, who knows what would have happened. But I tell young players too, if you're fortunate enough to get yourself on a good gig, an artist gig, and you get hired to play guitar or bass or whatever, when you get home, don't be the guy that gets home saying,

And just waits for the bus to leave again. When you get home, take advantage of your situation. You know, like when Jason started to pop, we started to play on a bunch of sessions. Y'all played on one of mine. Demos, that's how me and Neil, we met Neil. Yeah. Demo sessions and you take advantage of the situation that you're given. Don't come home and go to your apartment or your house and just sit there and wait for Wednesday night to come again and leave again. I think a lot of people...

can get caught in that where they they get an opportunity yeah maybe a little piece of their dreams coming true and they don't see that that's just a piece of the dream i remember the day i remember that day that y'all were playing on on one of my demo sessions and y'all were like not the norm guys and i remember it was an omni studio yeah i'll never forget it yeah and i'm like and i'm i remember a question i'm going i'm going who are these guys

Who are these guys? I don't, I mean, is this, we good? I mean, I didn't know. I've never, I didn't know, you know? The thing was, is that like, I wasn't good. Like I distinctly remember this. Whatever. No, but seriously. I'll play you the demo you played on. Are you kidding me? But it took me a while and I think totally falls into this too. But like, I kind of do one thing.

Like I can do one thing and it's okay. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. No, but what I'm saying is when I came to Nashville and we started playing on sessions, I was like, oh, I got to play like Brent Mason, you know, and be able to play country. And I tried to kind of go that way for a little bit, but that's not what I can do or what I can bring to the session. Brent Mason could not have played on what y'all played on. And it's not his deal. Well. But what that deal was, y'all were handpicked for a reason. Yeah.

And it was like, oh, my God. And I remember hearing y'all when the tracking was going down when I was in the vocal booth. I'm going, oh, my God. You know these guys. This is freaking great. The edge of this is so good. I think a cool thing, and you learn it. And I think, like Kurt said, I'm self-taught. I learned to play from listening to albums. When we started playing on sessions, we have our style, and we never –

Really changed from that and I think you know some people it was it was too much for them That's that's too much. That's too different, but it's not like we ever tried to change or bend so I think I think from being confident in what we were doing out of Whatever reason whether it was we you know weren't versatile enough or whatever we just did what we did and uh It's it's all worked out But I think there's it all comes back to that thing for me personally personally of just being the hardest worker and

Whether you're writing songs or singing or being an artist or don't get outworked. Yeah, 1,000%. I think if you're good, if you're good at what you do, then it comes down to the right relationships. Right? Yeah. It really does. Absolutely. Because everybody at this table is super talented at what they do. And you got in with the right people. God's design. How many times do you guys get asked, seriously, how did you do that?

Or, you know, what do I... Or how about The Other? Don't get me going on that one. What was that, Kurt? Don't get me... We hear this a lot. What's The Other? You know, oh, you're playing with your bass for Jason. Yeah, I was going to move to Nashville and be a bass player, too. Come on. Yeah. Oh, I was going to... Yeah, I was going to go do that songwriting thing, but, you know, I've...

decided not to maybe I'll try it maybe I'll give it you know but what's your answer when they ask you well how do you do that I'm always it's a long answer I don't know but how many times it happens all the time like yeah I got a message on social media whatever and like hey I've I'm wanting to do this got any advice for me and really my only advice I ever give to them is move here

if you really want to do something in the music business, move here and put it all on the line and you'll know quick. You'll know quick. I think you'll learn. The people that I've listened to,

Back in my publishing days, I listened to a lot of songwriters, a lot of songs, and there's three categories. Either somebody's great, and I send them on up the line, hey, you've got to hear this kid, or they're terrible, and I can say, hey, I don't think this is your gifting. The ones that are hard are the people right in the middle where they're

you know, you're kind of good, you know? And there's a lot of kind of good writers, singers, artists that work hard, develop their brand, their thing, and can be really successful. That's the hard for the advice. So you think I should move today and I could start making income? No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying you're going to make income today. But yeah, you might make it, but you got to move. Well, music is the, I don't know if it's the one job, but it is a unique profession that

Talent is kind of subjective. And if you're a football player and you are supremely talented, you're going to make it. That isn't the case. We all know people that are supremely talented, that are amazing singers or whatever, and they just didn't make it. And no rhyme or reason, really. And we are probably the only part of the music and entertainment industry that

That you can actually suck and still get paid. Yeah. It's true. It's true. You don't have to be technically good to make it in the music business. No, you don't. Technically. Actually, you don't. Or definitively good. But if you're likable. If you're likable, it helps. If you got good teeth and you're likable. I tell you what, I think the intangible though is. No, I'm just saying. I'm just saying. No, but I disagreed a little bit.

There's an intangible factor to success in this business for me. And everyone at this table has an intangible factor and it always comes down. I know a lot of technically great bass players, a lot of technically great guitar players, technically great singers, technically great songwriters. For me, it's always comes down to the creativity part.

of that talent. Like what guitar part can you create? What melody can you tweak? What melody can you create when you're singing a song that's different? What can you create in a hook that's different? And I, that's our approach. My playing is like, what can I do? That's different than, yeah, this guy might be technically better, but he's not more creative. Well, but there's something more than that too. Like it still has to be palatable to,

It has to be relatable. I'm mainly talking about singers. Yeah. I know what you're talking about, and it's agreed. But if you listen, okay, all right, technically great singers. Okay, well, you're not going to put Tom Petty in that category because is he technically a great singer? No, but he's one of the coolest. But he's also not tone deaf. In country music, there's tone deaf singers that make it.

Sure. But as an artist, though, it's never and never will be a singing contest. There's a difference between a singer and an artist. Right. Huge difference. A huge difference, right? There's a huge difference in between a hit and a good song. Right. Huge difference. But as an artist, though, it's the charismatic side of it. You're right. Is he a technically great singer? No.

No, but something in that package, in the voice or in the image, strikes a chord for some reason. We probably should go to a break before I start naming names. That's a great idea. No, no, no, seriously. Actually, I hope you guys think it's interesting because we do. Thanks for hanging with us.

Hang through us through the break. And while we do that, we need to say hello and what's up to Mike at Original Glory. He's been super good to us. We just want you to know we're thinking about you. Prayers and love to you, my man. Absolutely. We're so thankful for our sponsor. Original Brands is starting a new era in American domestic premium beer. American made, American owned. Original Glory. Original Glory.

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All right, guys, we're back. We're here at the Patriot Mobile Studios. This is Try That in a Small Town podcast. Talking a little music business, talking some writer stories, history, how we got started. Tully, you were talking about being on Broadway and kind of how you came to town and started working. Well, first of all, I think one of the key things when you move here is

I grew up 18 hours from Nashville by car ride. So I drove down here and had this old truck in like an 88. It was beat. So I started playing on Broadway and,

My truck would barely run. I remember I got called for a gig. This is, I mean, 96. What bar? Tootsie's, in the front window at Tootsie's. It was only the small. Yeah, I was going to say before Tootsie's expanded. Yeah, it's just small there now. But I got called. I was excited. And I didn't know 90% of the songs, but I was going to wing it. So I loaded up my truck and my radiator went,

had like completely pretty much blown on the drive down here. So I, I had those little, those pellets you, you pour in the radiator, you know, just to clog up the leak or whatever, you know? So I filled it up with that. So I put these pellets in the radiator and I start heading down to Broadway and I pulled them to Broadway and there was smoke coming out of this truck. You could see it, dude. It was like something was on fire. So I pull up,

Like, oh my God, I made it. So I pull and I started playing in the front window of Tootsie's and I would do the, God, it was probably 2 p.m. on a Sunday and

till midnight, some shift. But yet I remember back in those days, there wasn't much going on down there. No, Broadway was a ghost town, actually. It's not like it is today. Not the bachelorette capital of the world like it is now. So we played from 2 p.m. to midnight, and I made $16 was the way the tips cut out. And that's the way it was. And I did that for months. And that's where I met Kiefer Thompson at Thompson Square.

which we ended up producing their stuff years later. Yeah. We were in, I was in a Merle Haggard tribute band, which was a little bit of a stretch, but you know, it just, it's awesome. It just goes to the thing though, of like, if you move here, I think, I think you, you, you can't, you gotta do everything. Even today. Like you gotta, you gotta do everything, you know, we, you know, play, right. Produce all of it, you know, as far as what we do, you know? But anyway, I mean,

I would never tell someone not to move here, but I think that it always comes down to the work ethic. And do you have that creative niche? That's the thing right there. That's going to set you apart. Has anybody... I know we haven't told anybody not to move here. I actually have. Have you really? I feel bad about it now as I'm getting older, but there was a point years ago, probably 10 years ago, where...

It was just constant, like, should I move? Should I move? I'm like, well, if you're asking me, then you shouldn't. That's kind of what I was going to say. You know what? If you really believed in it, you wouldn't ask. Don't ask. You asked me twice. Just go. Just do it. Should I move there? Well, then you're already behind...

You're already lost to me. That's a scary decision. But that's the bone you, that's the difference though. I think that's the difference though in success. That's true. I didn't ask anybody. I just freaking left. I think if you have any. If you trust in my opinion whether you should move, I think you're. But it depends on different life situations. Like when you moved, you were single.

right you weren't married didn't have kids or anything like that so that's that's kind of easy but but somebody might ask you that question and they've got two kids and a decent job should they move to nashville to be a bass player i don't know i'm gonna say no you know i'm gonna go back to man if you're asking and if you do have two kids and you're married and you're worried about it then it's probably not for you i have a lot of friends okay so i used to play in uh

bands back home and and for a long time like I was a kid from 14 till I moved 21 and there's a guitar player in one of my bands um very talented especially for where we were like it was really really good um and we were going to move together and you know that slowly you know that didn't happen he he didn't want to risk it you know we were young we're barely you know not even 21 yet and

And every time I see him to this day, he's like, ah, now he's got, you know, beautiful family and kids are grown this point, but he lives with that regret every day. Yeah. And he tells me that. And, and I'll ask this and I'm not insinuating anything, but does he have the regret because you made it? Oh, I think like, say you didn't make it.

He'd probably say to himself, oh, I made the right decision. Oh, Tully hadn't made it yet. He's not done. Well, I'm sure. I'm sure that there's always those people that you were playing with when you were younger, and it makes them feel like, well, I could have did that too, which is probably true. But the difference is...

Music, for me, wasn't really an option. It was all that I really loved and all that I really was good at. That was my gift. You know what I mean? Yeah. So for me, I remember, and I'm not going to tell you it wasn't a lonely, scary time. It was. But I look back on it and thinking, that's the difference. And I tell my son, my son's in acting. It's very challenging.

But it always comes down to, if you want to do it, don't get outworked and you got to go do it. No one's going to do it for you. We wouldn't be sitting here if we didn't all share that common, if that wiring wasn't similar. Because this business doesn't allow that to happen where it's going to be easy. And songwriters have a little advantage because I think as opposed to just a...

bass player or guitar player like a specialist or a singer that's that's that's a specialist yeah songwriting most of the time not all the time but most of the time uh it's it's a team effort you know so you can you can be good at one thing and team up with other people that that strengthens your weakness and be very successful that's a good point right there you don't have to be good at everything i've never thought about it there's so many great players in this town

that are worthy of playing with anybody. There's so many of them. Usually, great songwriters in this town usually find it. They usually get discovered. The great ones do, yeah, but... The good ones do. You're not going to... But here's the thing, though. Even as a songwriter, and trust me, I love the fact that every day I feel like we're learning. I know I am learning something every day. We're getting better at songwriting or music, whatever. But I feel like...

You've got to have something intangible that's great. Even if you do get invited into a right with two other people, Kalo, that are great, you've got to be great too because you're not going to get invited back. Yeah, what I'm saying is you can just be gifted in one area. You don't have to have the idea, have the melody, write all the lines. You can do one thing well and succeed. Yeah.

and not know anything about the rest of it. You're only good at one thing? I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I just think songwriters have an advantage. It actually is an interesting point. But you do have to do that, whatever that one thing is, you need to do it really well. Really well. Or you're not going to get invited back. But you, I mean, I do feel like you can...

you know, it's, it's not for the faint of heart, any of this, you can have a hit as a songwriter. And I think people don't realize you can go a long spell without a, without another run of success. Yeah. It's like anything else, you know, and, and how many great songs we write that never get heard. Most of them. Yeah. You know, and it's every time you, you know, people hear the ones that it

having success but the other hundreds sitting there that you work on just as hard yeah i think the normal public probably thinks oh you guys wrote try try that in a small town that was the one song you wrote no there's there's hundreds of yeah of songs that you write that don't make it yeah yeah kind of call it a lottery ticket you know it's like if you buy enough it's more like thousands yeah right it's no it is yeah and and

very challenging and so rewarding when everything, when everything works, you know, but it's fun now to look back. I mean, we get the luxury now of looking back in 30 years in the business and you look back and you're like, wow, you know, you can kind of laugh about the hard times now, but a lot of people fail and they leave and it's not a good memory. You know, you know what I mean? Unfortunately, when you're a creative though, like

to be truly happy, you've got to give it a shot. And I feel like, like, I feel like if you, if you're like Kurt said, if you, if you're asking yourself, should you give it a shot? Then you probably shouldn't because that, that means you already have that seed planted, you know, of doubt, which I think like there's that little, I think we have that four of us where it's like, okay, failure wasn't an option, but it's going to be tough. You know what I mean? So, but when Neil was talking about, um,

before actually today i guess uh i think we played that show with ashley gorley who actually gorley is he's a buddy of all of ours but he's the most successful commercial songwriter in any genre of music you know he just has his 80th number one 80th you know he surpassed like two or three years ago but um but he was he was playing uh his song the post malone song uh

Help. Need some help, right? I had some help. Had some help. Anyway, so he was talking about it. He goes, yeah, what's interesting is Morgan Wallen, who's a writer on that, and Morgan is blowing up the whole world. And he doesn't get nominations really for anything, but that's his first Grammy nomination is being a songwriter on that song, which is really cool. But just thought that was kind of interesting. As huge as he is, that's his first Grammy nom. Yeah, and why is he doing a show with us?

Who, Ashley? Yeah. Because he likes golf, and I had some golf passes. I like it. He does songwriting shows for fun or money, and I had some fun. That's me. I'll do it for fun, golf, or hunting. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, put the word out. Maybe this is it. We will do for – you'll do it for hunting. We'll do it for golf. I will write or sing for hunting or golf. Okay.

I think we fell into a pretty interesting topic, right? And, you know, a lot of people wonder what the journey was and if it was easy or if it was hard or if it happened right away. And I don't know. It's good to go back. Yeah. I mean, it took me back. Well, I love how God will literally lay people in your path. The road that winds is so amazing to me.

like sitting on this table and thinking about that day at Omni like you know we knew who you were when you walked into that studio and we were like oh it's Neil Thrasher we're playing on a demo with Neil Thrasher and the journey is I have so much fun talking about it now you know because we've lived so much of it and we may have mentioned this before but so do you remember what year that was so we played on your demo had to be are you kidding me I'm going to say 05 06 no it was before that

Oh, it was probably 04. Wow. Could have actually, actually, I think it was 03, if you want to know the truth. I think it was 03. But the point is, is that, so that's when we met you, knew of you,

And then really fast forward 20 years later. No, and I'm supposed to be retired right now. Yeah, but it was probably 20 years ago when I met Neil at church. We were at Brentwood Baptist Church. And it was after the service, and I was walking out. And I knew who he was, but I'd never met him before. And I was walking by. He's very nice. And we talked for a minute, and he goes, man, are you ever going to write with me?

I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'd love to. And I walked out in the hallway and I was thinking, Neil Thrasher wants to write with me? This is amazing. But that's how our relationship started was that. I didn't know. Like I was a fan of yours. And look where we are. I got a funny story about one time I got scolded by Neil. I get scolded by Neil all the time. It was a light scolding. No, we were producing an artist named Lindsay Yell.

It was a light scolding. It wasn't a hard, harsh scolding. It was probably firm, but fair. It was very firm. It's good for you to get this off your chest. I just remembered this. We were producing an artist named Lindsay L. I wish I could remember the name of this song. I can't. A great song that you wrote. We heard it. I can't remember. I think someone pitched the song. It might have been.

I can't remember where you were writing then. You probably got a scolding if you didn't cut it. Go ahead. No, no, no. So we did cut it. The problem was we just cut it because we were under a little bit of a time crunch. And we got pitched it, but we didn't let anyone know we cut it. And Lindsay was a brand new artist and had no success yet. And we were just cutting her first project. I remember calling you and saying,

I said, hey, Neil. And of course, we had this connection through Aldine and all the songs and stuff. So it was probably around 2010 when this happened or something. And I said, hey, Neil, we cut this song and we didn't tell you. And you go...

Ask next time. No, I didn't. Yes, you did. Wow. No, you did. No, that doesn't sound like me. It doesn't? No. No. I don't believe it. That doesn't sound right. I would not make it up. I called. Ask next time? He was probably kidding, right? It wasn't mean. No, no, no. Well, I mean, you might have been kidding, but it sounded. But the way you said it, it sounded like an asshole. Language. Ask next time. No, it wasn't that. It was like, you're like, ask next time. It was firm, but fair. It was firm.

It's okay. Is that where the tension comes from? I just remember the story. I remember the, so I did the same thing cause we just talked about new artist, no success. And the song was great. And, um, I remember the first line, uh, was cell phone. Wish I could sell this phone. Oh yeah. Yeah.

And I heard that first line. It's called Farther Away. Farther Away. It's a great song. It's a great song. Cell phone, wish I could sell this phone. I was like... Better yet, sell this phone. Out into the middle of some deep lake. Yes. So I heard that first line. I'm like, we're cutting a song. And we were...

Like, so those days we were pushing so hard. We were coming off the road. We were producing right to the studio. And so we were green on that end of it, like letting everyone know. And so, hey, Neil, we cut this song. You're like, ask next time. I was like, ooh. Well, I don't think Lindsay was signed at that time. So we were trying to get her signed. That's probably it. So we kind of used your song to help get her signed. Anyway. It was firm but fair. Yeah.

I don't remember being that way. That surprises me, Neil. It wasn't mean. Knowing you now, you were probably just being Neil. Wow. Wow. Exactly. Terrible Neil. No, I mean, but Thank You Anyway is a great song. It is a great song. Maybe we should play a little bit of that as we go out. All right, guys. From the Patriots. Are you going to play it? Do you know it? We don't have time to just sit here and wait.

You're talking about going back. Damn this cell phone. Wow. No. That's how it started. Damn this cell phone. Wish I could sell this phone. No. Yes. It's around that. Better yet sell this phone. Out in the middle of some deep lake. And laugh about how long it'll take them to figure out. I've checked out. Wow. Wow.

just wanna get away but these days is getting away it's getting farther away that's a great song and that's like rain man stuff wow and that right there is why i can't even remember that song without asking did anybody did any artist have any one ways yes

Did anybody happen to cut that song? Besides Lindsay? Yeah, we took it. Probably missed out on. Oh, what a great song. But I'm not kidding. I'll never forget hearing the opening lines of that song. I was like, this is so good. I'll try to dig up the track. All right, guys. That's awesome. That's some fun, fun stuff from the Patriot Mobile Studios. We got thrash counterclockwise again. Kalo.

TK, I'm Kurt. This is Try That in a Small Town. Thanks for listening. Make sure to follow along, subscribe, share, rate the show, and check out our merch at trythatinasmalltown.com.