My Husband Looks at Pictures of Younger Women
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Hey, what's going on? This is Deloney and I'm jazzed to announce that I'm hitting the road this spring with my buddy Dave Ramsey on a brand new tour. Come hang out with us in a city near you for the money and relationships tour. Get tickets at ramseysolutions.com slash tour. Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney show.

Found my husband was looking at much younger women on Instagram and it was sort of saying woman after woman after woman looked nothing like me. I don't know, it just crushed me. You instantly go to a place that I'm guessing has haunted you forever, which is I'm not a man. Yo, yo, what's up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, the greatest mental health and marriage and emotional health podcast that's ever existed.

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Real people going through real stuff. Real challenges trying to figure out what to do next. And that's what we do here. I'll sit with you and we'll figure out what's the next right move. Makes a huge, huge, huge difference if you will stop

what you're doing because I'm about to ruin for one second and hit the subscribe button. Hit the subscribe button or the follow button. And at the end of this show, if you'll send it to a buddy that you think needs it or a family member just to make the holidays more awkward than they already are, that'd be rad. Okay, let's go out to Santa Fe, New Mexico, one of my favorite places on the planet and talk to Teresa. Hey, Teresa, what's up? Hello, thank you for taking my call. Of course, what's going on?

Yeah, so I have been married for 12 years, and last year I found my husband was looking at much younger women on Instagram, and it kind of became a habit and just started seeing woman after woman after woman looked nothing like me. Fake everything, fake eyelashes, you name it. And so obviously it was like a hit to my self-esteem. Hold on, Teresa, I just got to stop you. There's nothing fake on Instagram. It's all real. Okay.

Exactly. None of it's real. Okay. So, so yeah, you took this pretty personal, huh? I did, especially just because early in our relationship, I had explained that I had seen my father do similar things where he would look at women that were not my mom. And I didn't want to be with someone who would ever make me feel like I wasn't enough. And so to open up and to be that vulnerable and then to find out that, you know, he said he would never do that. And now he's doing it. I don't know.

It just crushed me, obviously, and I'm trying to work on rebuilding my trust not only with him, but also loving myself for who I am in a society where women are constantly told as we age, we're not enough anymore. I have tons of thoughts, but they may not be helpful. How can I help you?

I want to be able to not go back to those moments of feeling worthless. Anytime we have an argument or things come up, I just, I go back to that. I lose, I lose trust. If he says one thing, I bring that into it. Like, well, if he lied about that, he's obviously lying about this. And I want to be able to overcome that. Number one. And number two, I really just want to be able to like appreciate where I am in my life. I've had kids. Um,

I just don't know. I just feel like I try to overcome it, and I keep going back to that space. So he's not on the phone. If he was on the phone, I'd have a different conversation with him. So the questions I ask you are inquiries. They're not blame, okay? And my hope is when people are hurting, sometimes it's easy to conflate those two things. But, man, I'm on your side. I'm sitting with you at this table, okay? Here's my question to you.

If you're seeing somebody who is dolled up on Instagram, wearing next to nothing, and they're beautiful, I get the idea that I want my partner to only have eyes for me. I get the neuroscience behind the dangers of pornography and the dangers of, you know, like that. I get that. The question I have for you is you take something that your husband is doing, looking at scantily clad, pretty young women on Instagram.

And you instantly go to a place that I'm guessing has haunted you forever, which is I'm not enough. Yes. Tell me about that leap. Because I can see you saying, hey, ding dong, you look at me, right? I get that. Or, okay, we're going to get real awkward. We're going to sit down and scroll through this together. What's so beautiful about her? We'll go down this rabbit hole if you want to. But it's different for you. Where is this core hurt?

Well, I think it's just from, as long as I can remember, honestly, like I used to be in a modeling industry when I was younger. And that, you know, to be someone you had to, you know, obviously be very, very skinny. You know, the 90s and 2000s were a very different time, but I just, you age out at like 20 something. It's a devastating time. Yeah. What was it?

Yeah, I've just always had this fear of aging. And I was really starting to appreciate myself and my love of myself after having kids. And it was almost like right as I was like at the cusp of feeling like I love who I am, this happens. And I'm like, see, see, this is why. It's almost like my little fear is telling me this is why you can't trust people. And this is, you know, I don't know. But you're conflating two things. You've completely outsourced your belief in yourself and your identity to...

a secret action your husband takes. You're worth more than that. And then on top of that, you've conflated your identity, your less than-ness with his trustworthiness. And those are two separate things. You can be beautiful and enough and not a 20-year-old way fish in late 90s model, right? You cannot be that and you can be whole and your husband can be trying to hide stuff from you on Instagram. Do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah, I do. But it's like the great Brene Brown says, like, what you go looking for in the world, you will find it. And it seems like your antenna for I'm not beautiful, I'm not enough, I'm not enough, I'm not enough, my body's not my own. Like, you're scanning and scanning and scanning until you finally find it. And then your body goes, told you. Yep. Told you, right? Absolutely. That's got to be exhausting. Very exhausting. I'm tired. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I just don't know how to stop doing that. I don't know. Often it starts in a pretty weird place and it starts with a, do you have kids? Yes. How old are they? 10 and eight. Next time lead with that. Cause I was, man, I was about to say, I was about to say 12, but somewhere real early on, you got a very clear message that your beauty equaled your worth.

Absolutely. And your body put a GPS pin in that and it's been scanning your environment forever. And now you got a 10 year old in your own house, that whole machine of worth and not worth and beauty and not enough. And if I'm not this, then who am I? Is your body's replaying this whole story and your kids are right there with your kids. You get what I'm saying? Oh yeah, I absolutely do. Here's the truth. You're going to get old.

Yep. You can make peace with it or you can fight it all the stuff, but you're going to die either way, right? I think I would start with you writing my 10-year-old, 12-year-old self a letter. I'm so sorry. Because that's the girl that's still trying to play defense for you. You're going to make me cry. She's 10. Yeah. Yeah. And she skipped enough meals and she sucked her gut in enough. Okay.

And she was mad about how flat chested she was or not flat chested. I mean, enough. Let that girl go play. Right? Yep. She's so freaking tired. And you're going to have to practice because you don't want your kids to go through what you went through. No. And yet that's what we know. And I'm using we plural. My parents were in the newspaper growing up for being the couple that lost the most weight on Weight Watchers. Like, I get it. Mm-hmm.

And then here come my kids and I hear it coming out of my mouth like, hey, you guys, oh God, you know what I mean? I hear it. I got to practice. I got to practice. And God bless my parents for trying to get healthy back in the late 80s, early 90s, right? I mean, it's all, it just is what it is. But here we are. Yes. And then you got to forgive yourself for the dumb things you said to your kids. And we're going to practice moving forward. But we're going to let 10-year-old go. And then we're going to let 18-year-old go. We're going to let 24-year-old who hated the way she looked because she didn't look 20 anymore. Mm-hmm.

And sometimes this exercise can be done by writing letters and you probably have several to write because 24 year old you may have made some decisions that weren't great. And first time pregnant, you may have hated her body. I don't know. I miss repeating stories I've heard over the years sitting with hurting, terrified people. But it's the opposite of what your intention is. And your intention is to grip everything tighter.

What is he looking at? I want to see his phone. And that's a proxy war for what's going on inside your chest. Okay. And he's not off the hook. What an idiot. You like gave him the one playbook to your soul. And probably if I'm being crass to your bedroom, don't look at other women. And he's like, got it. And he went and did that one thing. Right.

Yeah. That's not cool. That's not cool. I mean, I'm not naive to think he's not going to ever think another woman's attractive. Of course. It was just a pattern of behavior and looking at things that were, like you always said, I love natural looking women, and yet you're looking at women that are not natural. Yeah, but also, I won't tell the story because it happened to my son. What I will tell you is, I'm watching my 14-year-old follow yet another pattern of Deloney behavior, which is complete and utter cluelessness.

And so he may not know that those are fake whatever. You know what I mean? Where you as somebody from the industry who like you could go, that's not real. That's not real. That's not real. Some dudes can't, I mean, never even occurs to that. Right. You see what I'm saying? Just is. And does that let him off the hook? No, in no shape, form or fashion. What I want you to do is to unhook his idiocracy from your self-worth and your identity. Yeah. You're just worth more than that. And you have been for a long, long time.

Do you believe that? I'm getting there. Thank you. Here's a second option if writing letters gets pretty cumbersome. I want you to go into a room by yourself where you can close the door, okay? Sometimes it needs to be a closet. Sometimes it can just be your kitchen table if everybody's gone from your house. Sometimes it can just be on the couch. But I want you to settle yourself in in a way where you're sitting down. And I want you to hold with your hands your arms first trimester you. Okay? Okay.

Sometimes when we're talking with abusive men, we ask them to get down on their knees and look up so their body remembers the position of powerlessness when their mom or dad was standing over them. I want you to hold and cradle your younger self is what I'm asking you to do. And I know it sounds woo and cheesy, but I want you to put your body in that position because that person deserved to be loved and held regardless of what her hips were doing. Yeah.

And then the daily practice is a journal saying, I love the following about me. And I want you to do that for like a month, 30 days. Start every day and end every day with three to five things. I love this about me. It doesn't have to be aesthetic at all. Can we be honest for just two seconds? Yes. You don't look like a 20-year-old late 90s model, do you? No. No. So we're not talking about denying reality. We're not talking about lying to ourselves and yada, yada, yada. Yeah. It's making peace.

And from making peace, if we need to go exercise, if we need to go sit with a doctor, if we need to lose, like we'll go down that rabbit hole. But you can't get there from a place of I hate myself, I've got to punish myself, so I've got to beat myself up to get to this thing. That never has any lasting effect. You white knuckle it and then you hate everybody and then it all stops. And then you just cycle up again. This is letting 10-year-old you go play, 18-year-old you go play. This is forgiving 22-year-old you.

This is making sure those kids know there's not a thing you can eat that your mama won't love you to the end of the moon and back. Absolutely. And then we go hit husband upside the head and say, what's the matter with you? Right? Yeah. But listen, from this place, I'll end with this. This is going to sound like blame again. It's not in any shape, form, or fashion. Okay. A romantic partner knows when the other person doesn't like themself.

And outside of an abusive relationship where somebody is predatory, praise on that, on hurting people. It can be hard to plug in. Yeah. Right? And so this is probably a pretty amazing moment when you sit down and say, I love myself and I'm worth being loved and I'm gonna do the work to let myself off the hook, to let my nervous system rest and be at peace when it sees itself in the mirror.

And then you and husband sit at the table together and say, we get to rebuild our marriage, whatever that looks like. And this isn't about you scrolling on women on Instagram. But by the way, don't do that. Don't do that for our daughter. Don't do that for me. Don't do that for you. And that's almost always somebody who is starting to feel not alive in their own home, in their own skin. What do you and I both need to create aliveness in this home? Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, I do. I think that's a worthy adventure for both of y'all to go on. Because I want y'all to have like the most amazing, greatest marriage ever.

And I want him to not be an idiot and not take his, yeah, let's hold our conversation. Tell him to call me one day. That'd be a fun phone call. I want you to have peace from the inside out. I want you to build a life that you want to live in for the first time and not a life that you're running from and running from and running from and running from and running from. Because we're all going to get older. And I want that trip to be as fun as possible. That means I got to be in the driver's seat of my own life. I'm super grateful for you, Teresa. Thanks for the call. You're awesome. We'll be right back.

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All right, let's go out to the 512 in Austin, Texas and talk to Cameron. What up, Cameron? What up?

Hey, Dr. John, you've been such a blessing to me. I'm really grateful to talk to you. You're so kind. You are just a blessing to me. So thank you for saying something nice. I need that every once in a while. What's up? Me too. My question is, what is the right amount of time engaging in play with my kids and is saying no to them harmful to our relationship?

Wow, what a great question. Yeah, tell me about where this comes from. Sure. So I've been a stay-at-home mom for six years. I have two kids, ages six and almost three. And the question of how often I should play with them has really been a struggle for me and for my mom community. I understand that kids equate love with time, right?

And I am continually exhausted by how often my kids, particularly my oldest, wants or expects me to play with her. I worry that my kids are going to look back on their childhood and remember me as the mom who rarely said yes to playing with them. However, I also know that giving them the time and space to engage their own mind and their own creativity is important.

So what's the balance? You're not going to like my answers. Is that cool? Yeah, sure. Man, what a great question. Thank you for asking that. Thank you. Okay. Here's a couple of big rocks. And then if you don't mind being the vulnerable one on behalf of everybody listening, we can rabbit hole some specifics. Is that cool? Deal. All right.

One of the greatest gifts we can give our kids is the word no. Boundaries. That's big rock number one. Big rock number two is kids cannot be responsible for making us feel good about ourselves. They cannot carry that weight. It's too heavy. And I think that's at the heart of this question across all moms, all dads, all everybody wrestling with this, which is,

Am I playing enough? Am I saying no enough? Am I having enough boundaries? Am I checking my phone too much? Am I, all of this goes back to looking at a seven-year-old saying, am I doing this right? Am I doing this right? Am I okay? And a seven-year-old cannot carry that weight. And so the reversal and the person who, I've mentioned her several times on the show. She has put this word out into the universe and I'm so grateful. Take away the love equals time because I don't think that's fully accurate. Okay.

Kids are desperate for, as Dr. Becky Kennedy says, sturdiness, stability. I would much rather a dad get home from work and spend a laser beam of 30 minutes with their kid than a bleh hour or two hours or four hours on a Saturday. Sure. You know what I'm saying? Yes. I'd rather a mom spend 45 minutes of laser intense focus in a

In play therapy, they call it non-directive. I'm just going to follow my kid. And then the tiger ate the dinosaur. Yeah. The tiger ate that dinosaur. And then I'm just going to repeat what the kid said. I'm going to be lasered in on this kid. I'd rather 45 minutes of that than six hours at a park, but I'm mostly staring at my phone. Sure. Right? It's about that sturdiness. The kids will remember in their nervous system, no, my mom was anchored in. I could swing off of her,

the longest rope possible and she wouldn't budge and my mom modeled for me what to do and she gets tired my mom modeled for me what running a household as a stay-at-home mom actually looks like my mom did not function as a giant 32 year old toy for me right and so I love the conversation outside of the engagement

I'd love for you to make some rules for yourself about what technology usage and phone usage and where do you interact with other grown adult women? And where do you and your husband sit down and say, here's what I need in this particular season when it comes to managing the household? Not just assuming new roles and new roles and new roles and new responsibilities and, and, and, and, and. Let's make that a regular conversation. I'd love for your kids to witness, hey, um,

Let me tell you how this plays out in real, real, real life. Yes. So for all of my son's childhood, I tried to make it a point that he saw that my wife was number one. So I'd walk in and he'd come running to the door and I'd say, hey, buddy. And I'd pat him on the back, but I would head to my wife. I'd hug my wife. Even when we didn't like each other, I'd hug my wife. And then I'd drop my bag and pick up my kid. I just wanted him to see she's first.

And it felt weird because there's nothing more awesome than me getting home from work and having a young kid run to the door. It's the greatest thing in the planet, right? Sure. But I need him to know at a very early age, there's a hierarchy here and this house does not revolve around you. Yes. Okay. And that is a gift, as weird as it feels. Fast forward one year, two years, 10 years, 13 years of that.

Now my son's 14 and he was having a conversation with my wife the other day. And we're in the dating conversations and when's it too old and when's it too young and all that kind of stuff. And he popped off to my wife without even realizing it. He said, yeah, but it's not fair. You get to just live with your best friend all the time. And she just said, she just started smiling and got all kind of choked up because we won.

Right. You see what I'm saying? He doesn't see a co-manager. He sees two buddies who live their life and they're always wanting to make out in the kitchen.

Yeah. And so it is going back to what are the big rocks in my marriage? What are the big rocks in the things that I know keep me well and whole? Sleep, exercise. I love having, when parents put like little toys in the small little gym in a small room or a couple of weights in the garage. So kids absorb, oh, mom takes time to take care of herself.

Like she's a good steward of her and that's different than dropping the kid off. Um, and then leaving, right. I want, I want my kid to see that stuff. If they can, they don't always get to all that. So I'm throwing a lot at you. Tell me how you're feeling, how you're, how you're absorbing it. Yes. I agree with the hierarchy that you're talking about. And, um,

My husband and I have recently started talking about how we are... Now that we are out of those little, little years, you know, where the world has to revolve around the baby because they have to survive. You know, we're out of that. And we are...

Wanting to move more toward the world revolving around mom and dad. Correct. You know, revolving around our marriage versus our lives revolve around our children. Perfect. And the way that our, the differences in my, in, in how I live,

interact with my kids and my husband interacts with the kids is, you know, I'm with them almost 24 seven. Right. It's part of the job, right? My husband, he's a coach. And so we have heavy seasons of him being gone. And so I'm a solo parent. I'm not a single parent, but I do a lot of solo parenting. Yes. And so there is this level of experience.

exhaustion that exists and I am I am

Present with you but I um, you know, I don't want to sit and play shop all day long How old are your kids? How old are they? Six and almost three. Okay, three is going to be a little bit tougher, but the six-year-old Can see what a clock is and when the big number gets on 11 Then mommy will play with you. We have to play anything you want for 30 minutes. Okay, so

And, but from when the clock says, and by the way, this is a way to make math a part of their life. Here's an eight and here's a nine. When the clock gets on a nine, from until the clock gets on a nine to the clock gets on a 10, here are three things. Here are the puzzles. Here are the thises. Here is the coloring. Mommy's going to be in here doing exercise. Mommy's going to be in here preparing dinner. Mom's going to be in here just dead asleep. I'm just kidding. Don't go to sleep with a two and a half year old roaming around the house. But you get what I'm saying?

And what we're talking about here is intentionality. And you breathe in the air of the industrial mom guilt complex. There's no way for you to win. If you got a job making $400,000 a year right down the street, there'd be moms who are like, oh my gosh, really? Or you're such a terrible person. And if you stay at home, like, oh my gosh, really? Like you can't win.

And even at home, like you even said it right. I'm not a single parent. I'm a solo parent. You know all the right words, but even inside your own house, you're like, am I doing this enough? Am I not doing this enough? Oh, I ask that question with every choice that I make. Okay. So I want you to reverse engineer the choices because without meaning to, you're still putting your kids as the fulcrum of the decision-making platform in your home. Okay. I want you to back all the way out. What must be true for you to be well?

I need an hour a day to go exercise or go for a walk or move my body. I need to have four or five women that I meet with once or twice a week. And I want you to use the words with your young kids. Hey, we're having grownup talk. Yes. And they learn, okay, we're going to go in the other room. And I want them to see the things that need to happen during solo parent season. It's extra important that you have a group of women that come over and have dinner with you guys and bring their kids.

Yes. And we have that. And so that's why I feel more exhausted than I feel like I should. I realize that being a mom and a stay-at-home mom, it's exhausting. That's fine. But it's the... What feels like...

their unquenchable desire for me to engage like in that imaginative play. And I hate that I say no so much more often than

Then I say yes. And it's even when like other children are around, that's what I feel like I don't have a game plan for that. Like that's it. It's intentionality. Yeah. It's intentionality. Wanting me to go play like at a children's birthday party. It's like, no, I'm talking to the grownups. Well, and again, you know, can we just celebrate that for a minute? Your kids want to hang out with you. Right. I talked to parents who six-year-olds don't want to be in the room with them.

Sure. So kudos to you. That means you're a regulated human being. When I was an unregulated person, my six-year-old daughter didn't want to be around me and it devastated me. So good on you. And this is the important boundary time. This is the adult time. The adults are talking right now. You go play with the other kids. Oh, mom. Go play with the other kids. Yes. And then exhale and then feel it and then go on to the next thing because your feelings are going to tell you one thing and then reality is going to be a different thing.

And by the way, you know, you're an in tune enough person, you know, you know what I mean? You know, when, uh, um, when you're not being, you know, when you're just brushing your kids off and when I got, I got stuff I got to do. And by the way, your husband, what does he coach football? He's a tennis coach. Tennis coach. Okay.

So I don't know anything about tennis. Other than I love John McEnroe. I used to get all mad. I love that, but I don't know anything about tennis, but I'm going to make a football analogy. Okay. Sure. A great part of any football coach's strategy is occasionally you just find yourself beating a series and you punt the ball. What does that have to do with, with being you and your situation? You're not going to get this right every day and that's fine. You're playing an 18 year game, right? Yeah. 18 years.

There's going to be days when you're engaged and there's going to be days when something happens in the news and you're just on your phone all day and you tell your kids, go away. You hand them an iPad and go just here. Those days are okay. And they're not indicative of you as a failed, horrible mom. There's going to be other days. You're like, you know what? I'm packing a picnic and we're going to the lake. We're just going to go play. Yes. And then one of your knuckleheaded kids is going to stung by a bee the first four minutes. Like the whole, you know what I mean? Like the whole thing. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a long game.

But I want to circle back to intentionality. I want to circle back to the things that you know keep Cameron well and whole. And then when you feel awkward or you feel like, my kids, I just made my kids sad. They're going to be tough and they're going to be fine and they're going to be good. Especially when it's bounded. And you said it best. I don't know when I'm in, when I'm out. When the clock hits on 11, I'm closing this thing down and I'm heading over and we're going to wrestle or we're going to whatever. Yes. We're playing...

Can I say this on behalf of all parents? Please. Parenting is sometimes so tragically boring. I tell my husband, I am both...

Over and under stimulated both at the same time. Yes. It's like you're drinking and doing Coke at the same, your body is like, I don't know what to do. Are we slowing down? Are we speeding up? Yes. It's the worst. It's the worst. I try to follow along with my kids doing like dragon restaurant. Like what? And it's like, they're making it up as you go. I'm like, what are we doing? And it's,

It just is. Let's go kick the soccer ball. It's what we agree to do. And then three minutes we're playing soccer, pine cone, war. Like what? I don't even know. I don't even know what's happening. And I get frustrated. It's okay. Okay. Parenting is boring. It's exciting. It's slow. And then it's overwhelming. And then your six-year-old, within the year, she'll be like, hey, you want to go for a walk, mommy? And you'll be like, yeah, sure.

And then you'll just walk out the door and she'll be like, what's 69? And you'll be like, Oh God, like, right. That's happening. But how does the boy part get in the girl? Like it's comment, you know what I'm saying? And so it's all of this all at the same time. Yeah. All in the same day. All in the same hour. Yes. And then it's like, I don't like enchiladas because enchiladas have brown spots on it. Good God. Like all that. Here's the thing. What are the things that keep your marriage whole?

What are the things that keep you well and whole? And what are the things that keep your kids well and whole? And I think we have missed the boat. Either it's forget the kids. It's all about me and my whateverness. And I think that's nonsense. Yeah. When two people create a child, then they are choosing to put the child ahead of them. Right. And...

Putting a child ahead does not mean sacrificing the air that I breathe and suffocating myself and drowning myself. It means, well, crap, I'm going to get up an hour early so I can exercise, so I can show up. I'm going to tell my kids no because I got stuff I got to do. I got to tell my kids no because I got stuff I want to do. And having wants is okay as an adult. Yeah, I'm just now getting back to that, to my wants. Here's what I want you and your husband to do.

Take a half day retreat in town. Yeah. The marriage you had is O-V-E-R. It's over. Yeah. The marriage y'all get to build next can be freaking off the walls fun. Yeah. But y'all get to pick what that is. And in a large way, your husband's coaching job has just continued to be your husband's coaching job. So his life has not transitioned and changed as much as yours have.

And I don't think I'm not, I just don't believe in the pylon. I don't think it's because he's a bad guy. I think he didn't know. He's just going to do the next hard thing. And his job is on the backs of teenagers. That's hard, right? That's a hard thing to do every day. And so everybody's doing a hard thing. Everybody's working hard. Let's sit at the table and say, okay, cool. What kind of marriage do you want to create now? We get to build something new. And then when your kids get to middle school or elementary school, you get to build something new. And then they go to high school to build something new. Then you're empty nesters. Y'all got a whole new thing you get to build.

Right. And the new adventure is taking control of what we get to do next. And it's so rad when you wrap your head around it. Almost all of us spend all of our energy trying to keep it the way it was. We used to do this. We used to do this. It's over. Now we get to do what, who knows, whatever it is. And almost always that things come up like, I miss you.

I miss being with you. I used to be super into this and I'm not anymore because I got kids hanging on me all day, but I'm kind of into this. I want to try it out. And you just kept coaching in this and I've just kept doing this and that. Let's have all that on the table. Here's all the ingredients. Now let's build what comes next. And I'm telling you that rhythm, that adventure can be transformational and fun. And it's hard and awkward and weird, but it's so rad.

Thank you so much for the call, Cameron. Thanks for being honest and open and brave on behalf of all the people listening. As a parent, seek sturdiness and seek intentionality. Seek focus, not just endless and endless and endless amounts of a grown-up play toy for little kids. It's a recipe to burn everybody to the ground. You're awesome, Cameron. We'll be right back.

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All right, we are back. Hey, it's been a long time since we've done a segment here, but Kelly said she's taken lots of calls and emails and emails and calls and calls and letters and emails. And now people are starting to send Hogwarts, Harry Potter, those owls. What are they called? Hedgewigs? Hedgewig is Harry's... Just read the thing.

Everybody wants to know how to find a therapist. So we're bringing back an OG segment. The OG 17 will be like, oh yeah. So get your Camaros out and tuck your jeans into your boots. For Ben's music, whatever he's going to play. Here's the new segment. The new old segment, facts are your friends. All right, here's what we're going to talk about. How to find a therapist. What do we even mean how to find a therapist? Okay, so...

Before we even do this, I just want to tell you, if you're asking the question, how do I find a therapist? Good on you. Just asking the question, good on you. All right, here's number one. I want you to think about what kind of therapist you need. What does that mean? Would you be more comfortable talking with a man or a woman?

Do you want to have online telehealth appointments? Right. Do you want to call our friends at better help? And this isn't sponsored by better help or anything, but you sit in your car and do an hour on your phone, um, on FaceTime, or you can be in your office, shut the door. If it's a safe, quiet place and you can talk to a counselor on, um, uh, like a video chat. I did that yesterday for some folks that I'm working with. Um,

Not counseling, but coaching, but it was very similar. Or do you want to be in person? I'm biased in person.

I think it's important to feel the weight of another person in the room with you. There's something in the air, there's something in the energy exchange. It's just important. Do I want someone who shares my spiritual beliefs and worldview? I care less about that. I'm a person of faith. I don't really care what my therapist faith bent is. I expect them to be a professional licensed person. And so similar to, I wouldn't ask my surgeon, like, well, where do you go to church? Like,

That's not important to me, but I know it's very important to other people and that's great and wonderful and good. That's good on you. You get to decide that, do I need somebody who specializes in a special area? Grief, marriage, parenting, aging, trauma, abuse,

There are a number of specializations that people spend a lot of training and time and education getting licensure and certificates that makes, and they're experts in that field. Do I need, what kind of counseling therapy do I need? Okay, so that's number one. I want you to think about that. Number two,

Here are the qualities of a good therapist, okay? Number one, a good therapist is a teacher. They should never be condescending, unrelatable, or give you advice. What I do on this show is not therapy, not counseling, because I often tell people, hey, you need to do this next.

A good therapist, unless you were doing something that's causing harm to you or to the person you're with, to your community, is going to walk you through, like, tell me more about that. How is that serving you?

Not, you got to quit doing, like, that's not therapy, okay? Therapy is walking alongside you and shining lights in places, holding up a mirror to you. A good therapist is a good teacher. They're walking alongside you. They just have a lot of training and they've been with a jillion people just like you. And so they know what's coming around the bend often when you may not. Number two, a good therapist is not your friend.

A good therapist is a professional, a licensed professional. They're not your buddy. And so if you need human contact, you need to do the hard thing and go make some friends. And that's really hard. That's a whole other facts of your friend segment. But a good therapist is not your friend. They're not your future romantic partner. In fact, they'll lose their license. Their job is to teach you how to be a good friend or buddy or romantic partner to the people in your life. A good therapist will challenge you.

This is not just pat you on the back and say, oh, it's to challenge you. Okay? It's to say, hey, I'm holding up a mirror here. Let me see if I'm seeing this right. Is this what you just said? Is this true? They will challenge you. And it's not a good counselor should not always be neutral. Right? A good therapist reflects you to yourself. I love this idea. As the great Irving Yalom once said, everything is data.

So a great therapist will say, hey, I'm really struggling staying plugged in with you. I'm really struggling. It might be that I didn't get any sleep last night or what I had for dinner. But do people often find being around you tough? Have people called you ER or boring in the past? Because I'm getting a sense it's very hard for me to stay plugged in with you. That could be offensive or it could be, oh, thank God you get it.

All right, let's talk through some strategies. Okay, so a good counselor will reflect you. All right, so number two, I'm just making up numbers here. I think I've been on number two like six times or whatever. Next, how about that? I always think the best place to start, if possible, this is impossible for everybody, but the best place to start when finding a therapist is to ask for a personal referral.

to ask for a personal referral. Do you know somebody? That's probably the most common in-person question I get. Hey, do you know somebody? Do you know somebody here? Do you know somebody here? I've been out of the game. When I was working in universities, I knew people all over the place and my world really shrunk actually when I started this job.

but I still know a handful of people. And I just was on the phone this morning with a friend who I referred to somebody here in Nashville, Tennessee that I know and trust. And so ask your friends for somebody for a referral, someone that they trust. They know you and they know this therapist potentially. Number three, check with your insurance to find an in-network provider if that is your economic situation.

They may often, if, so let's say a nationwide, most therapists, not most, many, many, many therapists have just gone to cash pay. What that means is their books are so full that they don't even take insurance. They don't mess with insurance. They're just 150 bucks an hour or 225 bucks an hour or a hundred dollars an hour or $50, whatever it is, they don't want to deal with it. And good on them. Deal with insurance is a nightmare for therapists.

Also, if you pay cash, you don't have to have a diagnostic code, meaning they don't have to diagnose you as some sort of something or other. They don't have to give you an IC10 code or a...

a DSM diagnosis. If you get reimbursed by insurance, they have to put something down on a piece of paper that says, I'm seeing this person for this. So if he's paying cash, and often I'd pay in cash and say, I don't want any diagnostics anywhere on anything, and they'd be like, gotcha, cool.

And other times I've gone in and said, I just need help. Help me out. But if you are somebody that has mental health providers on an HMO or PPO or whatever plan you happen to be on, they'll give you a list of people in your area. Just go through that list and see what the training is, see what their specialty is, and

see the, you know, the person of, are they a Christian counselor or a Jewish counselor or a Muslim counselor, or are they a man or they a woman and they specialize in trauma or whatever. Um, and let that be a way you can kind of curate your list. Um,

Number five or four, whatever it happens to be, search online. You can go to the American Psychological Association, APA, Association for Marriage and Family Therapy. Psychology Today is a great resource. You can put in your zip code, psychologytoday, and you can get online, put in your zip code, and it will tell you, just give you a massive list of the people in your area. That's a great, great place to start if you don't have personal referrals.

And if you are struggling financially, just too expensive, and by the way, it is very expensive, navigating all of it, check into local resources. Here's a few places. Number one, community centers. Think YMCA, state-run organizations. They often have low-cost counselors or free mental health resources or free groups. And by the way, group counseling is a tremendous resource, tremendous resource.

So if they have free groups for trauma recovery, for child loss, for divorce, check them out. And they also have those at your local churches as well. Another place in local resources that is low cost, reduced cost, or in some cases free is universities.

If you're a student at a university, you should have access to mental health professionals for free or significantly reduced rate. They're not really free. They're bounded into your tuition. So you give them a bajillion dollars for tuition and they give you counseling. And also many graduate programs will connect you with one of their graduate interns. And I hear this a lot. I don't want a graduate intern.

Listen, I was a graduate intern. I saw clients and I had to talk through with multiple professionals who were supervising clinicians. What does that mean? That means as a client, you got multiple people looking at your situation. What an amazing blessing. And I was amazingly inexpensive.

Because I was a student, right? So if you are in a community with a university and there is a counseling program, a marriage and family therapy program, a social work program, a...

an addiction counselor program, any number of community mental health program, all those graduate students are going to have to go get ours. And many of them set up clinics for low or no cost therapy. Great place to check out. Your workplace might offer some benefits. I work here at Ramsey Solutions. Ramsey pays a chunk up to 10 sessions. That's a great resource and benefit.

And churches usually have counselors or trained pastors on staff who'd be happy to meet with you.

Unfortunately, I've spent a lot of my career unwinding some stuff because sometimes people are great preaching ministers or they're great pastors in certain areas, but they are not good in other areas and they just give advice that's not always great. So I would ask at your local church, is there training here? Do you all have a counseling program? Do you have licensed counselors on staff or people you have available? And that can be a great place. All right, as we're wrapping this thing up, so those are some ways of places to find a therapist, the places you can go.

Here's some inside baseball. When you get a counselor or you're about to take the leap and go meet with a new therapist, here's some questions I want you to consider asking, okay? Logistically, number one, do you accept my insurance? Number two, can I afford your rates or do you have something called a sliding scale? Many therapists have a sliding scale. Number three, do you think you can help me in my particular challenges, okay? Number four,

Do both of us think this is a good fit? A great therapist will say, here's a good example. I've talked about this on the show. When I had a little baby after multiple miscarriages and I was doing crisis response, I was not good showing up in situations where young infants had passed away or had really traumatic things happen. I was no good. My nervous system was a razor's edge for young babies. It wasn't good for me. So ask your therapist, are we going to be a good fit? Is this a good season for us?

Will you commit to this relationship for a few months? I want you to ask yourself that, okay? Can you get travel and to the appointments on time? And here's the last thing. If you choose to go, I want you to not give up after the first session. I really want you to not give up after the second session. I'd love for you to give it three sessions.

The first session is often a lot of just explaining why are you here? What's going on? Here's my rates. Here's my confidentiality. Here's my license. You're like, there's a lot of stuff they have to cover. And you, a lot of people go through their first session and they feel like it is wasted all this time. I just told you, and you didn't tell me anything. That's normal. It's part of it. We're building a relationship.

The second session is often follow-up on what we talked about. How do you feel? How was this past week? And so we're just building a relationship. And often the middle to the end of the second session, into the third session is when we start getting into the meat of stuff. Okay, so give it a little bit of time. And here's what all of the data tells us. When it comes to a fit with a therapist, with a fit between a client and a counselor, psychologist, therapist of any kind,

What matters most is the relationship, not where they went to school, not what their training is, not whether they're a counselor or a marriage and family therapist, but can you and I sit in a room and be honest, honest, honest with each other? That's what matters. Do I feel safe enough to speak openly and truthfully with you? The last piece of advice is this, for God's sake, do not go to counseling if you're not going to tell the truth. When I taught grad school, the first thing I would tell incoming new clinicians was,

Your clients will not tell you the truth. They'll lie to you. They'll reveal stuff over time. So I'll tell you, if you're thinking about going to see a therapist, don't go if you're not gonna tell the truth. If you're ready to be open and you're ready to lay it all out on the table and say, will you walk with me? Go all the way. So that's it. That's how to find a therapist. Some questions you should ask about finding a therapist. Some things you should consider when finding a therapist and some places where you can find therapists, psychologists, counselors, social workers, all of it, everybody.

There's people out there to help you. And if you can't find some in your local area, call my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp.com slash D'Loni. You get a discount and they'll see you anywhere. And they'll call you back within 24 hours. You need to see somebody, go see them. If you don't know, if you're just questioning, go see somebody. We'll be right back. Hey, it's D'Loni for my friends at Helix, makers of the best mattresses in the universe.

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All right, we're back. Am I the problem, Kelly? As always, yes. Incorrect. All right, this is Ray from Texas. Hey, Ray! It's a shame about Ray. Lemonheads. Go ahead. Yes. Great song. Great song. My 15-year-old daughter that I raised from the age of five wears what I believe are shorts that are way too short for anyone to wear. Kelly, why'd you pick this one? My wife does not see a problem with what she wears. We argue when I tell my daughter to change into something more fitting for events like Young Life or golf practice.

My wife said there is nothing wrong with what she has on and will not compromise with just getting her clothes that fit her appropriately. Am I the problem? Best of luck. This is Hunger Games, part five. May the odds be ever in your favor. Thanks, Kelly, for this. So this is actually a two-pronged challenge. Challenge number one. After somebody's already dressed is a really tough time to go to war.

That conversation is an expectations and all that conversation is much better had way up river. That's number one. Number two, this is a marriage question. This is not a short to length question. Husband and wife are not on the same page about raising a daughter. And that has to take priority here. Um,

I don't this because otherwise shorts and this little girl and what she's wearing and again I don't even know how old she is 15 years old 15. Yeah 15 um, there are 15 year olds that look like they're 12 and there are 15 year olds look like they are 25 So there's so much context here um, but the fact that they are both digging their heels in tells me that this little girl's shorts have become a proxy war for a marriage that's Not together. So that is the question um

I am old school when it comes to this, but no. Because here's the deal. I know a lot of really great guys. I consider myself one. And you say what you want, but there you go. Like the shorts these days are too short. They just are. There is booty, booty, booty, booty everywhere, right? And so if I am a dad and I say, hey, I know what the world is going to think of this.

When you become a grown woman, knock your lights out. You have agency and autonomy. When you're 15, you're a child. You don't. And the sexualization of kids these days is crazy. That's not the time to express sexual autonomy. You're 15 freaking years old. And again, that goes back to, by the way, this isn't purity culture. This isn't shame culture. It's not the girl's job to make sure the boys don't screw. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's reality. There's reality. And we have over-sexualized our teenagers.

Ta-da. What do you think about that, Kelly? Actually, I 100% agree with you. No way. We never agree on anything. Rarely, but I agree with you. I went shopping with one of my very best friends. She asked me to go shopping for a homecoming dress, which I was quote-unquote cool and not slutty. You're cool and not slutty? No, that's what the dress we were looking for. Hey! No, I was just making sure I knew who you're talking about. Uh-huh.

The dress. The dress. I was going to challenge the cool part. Okay, the dress. Do not challenge the other part. Thanks. The dress was... Cool but not slutty was what I understood that we were looking for. And then when I arrived at the mall, I was shocked at what was considered...

Not slutty. I mean, I just thought, I mean, but my friend, I was talking to her about it and she's like, this is just what they all wear. Yeah. And I thought I would not have been allowed out of the house. Well, it's not even about a lot of the house. It's just this increasing sexualization. Yeah. Now I understand it. But when I was 15, you don't get it. No. I mean, I remember stuck sticking my bikini in a bag and leaving the house in a one piece to go to wet and wild. And as soon as he got there, change it into, I know you made last Saturday, super weird. So weird. Yeah.

Seriously. Yeah, seriously. No, I do agree with you. But they don't... The kids don't get it and they're not going to come to that realization. That's not the kid's job. No, it's not their job. No. A 15-year-old's job is I want to fit in. I want to be cool with my friends and I want to feel beautiful. And by the way, the sexualization has gotten so young. I hear this over and over and over now. There is a...

15 to probably 22 or 23, there is this weird meta understanding. Hey, this is hot as you're ever going to be. Take pictures. Make sure your friends see them. Send them out. This is as good as it's going to get. Make sure you document this, which is so insane to me that that's somehow made its way from...

Well, I won't even go there. But it is what it is. That's in the air and the water, and it's wild. My niece told my aunt, this was just a few years ago, when she said something about something she had on, and she was like, you just wish you'd look like this, so I have to make sure I take advantage of it now. Yes, yes, yes. And then sadly, we were all like, well, we kind of do, but you know. But we know more than she does. A little bit. And even then, when we think about the predatory world around 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21-year-olds, it's insane.

And yet I showed up to your 50th birthday party and you and I talked about this. There was a couple, but especially one shark just swimming around you guys. And dude, it made my blood boil the whole time because it was so it ruined everybody's good time. And it was just a reminder with me with a young daughter at your God awful old age. They're still sharking around. They're still all up in your bed. You know what I mean?

And to put a 15-year-old in that situation, to over-sexualize a 15-year-old, I just think it's madness, madness, madness. And it's not purity. It's not over-drama. It is reality. You're putting your kids in harm's way. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. But fix your marriage. That's a question y'all got to fix first. Kids cannot be your proxy war. Love you guys. Leave your mean comments at www.kelly.com. Love you guys. Bye.