21: A Church vs. The Feds: Who Shot First?? The WACO Siege
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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep, while you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

It's easy and you can save money by doing it from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner and more.

So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24, 7, 365 days a year. So you're protected no matter what. Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive.

This is an ad by BetterHelp. What?

What are your self-care non-negotiables? The things you know make you feel better, even when it's impossible to make time for them. Like that workout you try to squeeze in between kids' activities, work, and everything else you have going on, and before you know it, it gets pushed to tomorrow.

Sound familiar? But it's the moments when you feel like you have no time for yourself when those non-negotiables are more important than ever. Those are the things that keep you strong, healthy, motivated, and prepared to take on everything life demands of you. So why not make therapy one of them?

BetterHelp Online Therapy makes it easy to get started with affordable phone, video, or live chat sessions you can do from anywhere, and the option to message your therapist between sessions if anything comes up. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash darkhistory today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash darkhistory.

Hi friends, I hope you're having a wonderful day today. How are you? That's great. My name is Bailey Sarian and welcome to the Dark History Library. This is a safe space for all the curious cats out there who are like, hey, is history really as boring as it seemed in school?

Oh nay nay. This is where we can learn together about all the dark, mysterious, dramatic stories our teachers never told us about. Okay, so it's my birthday week. So I am drinking alcohol and Joan is also celebrating here with me. Come on girl, shots. Okay, great, great. So I expect a bunch of happy birthday comments. If I don't see it, I'm blocking you.

Great, I'm glad we got that. Oh, I should open up my book. Let me grab my dark history book, okay? Because today we have a very interesting story that I personally thought I knew a lot about, but I did not. So when I think of Texas, I think of big old hair, okay? Guns, bang, bang. Glamour, more guns, maybe bedazzled shirts, huh? Oh, and Tex-Mex.

I hear it's not that good, though. Don't come for me, that's just what I heard. Tex-Mex? Not that great. It's just what I heard. Shut up. But for a long time in the 1990s, whenever you heard about Texas in the news, you heard about a little city called Waco. Oh yeah, and a ton of people who died there. The media said it was all a standoff between the FBI and a crazy cult who believed deeply in two things. Guns and the apocalypse.

And to be fair, the group involved did believe in those things, especially their leader. But what if I told you that maybe the FBI/federal government were actually the crazy ones? I mean, actually, hi, welcome to Dark History. Have we not discussed this many times? Yeah. Most of the stories I talk about here are from like the 1800s. So all we really have are people's written records and memories, right? If we had cameras, we'd know what really happened.

Well, what if I told you cameras were at Waco, but they didn't tell you the whole damn story? They were like hiding shit per usual. Are we surprised? We shouldn't be. So let me open up my book to the Texas chapter. Oh my God, I opened right to it. Wow, it's my birthday. So make yourself comfortable because today we're talking about Waco, Texas. If you haven't figured it out, hi. Joan, yeah, I know.

She's got some things to say, but let's just get into it. Texas is where our story begins. Specifically, we begin in Houston, where a sweet baby boy is born on August 17th, 1959. So he's a Leo. I know, Joan. Leos. With the name of Vernon Wayne Howell. Now, Vernon's mom was only 14 when he was born, and his dad was only 18.

So his parents ended up splitting up almost immediately after he was born, and they would end up moving around Texas pretty much a lot. Vern was described as a lonely kid that wasn't doing all that great in school, but what he was great at was music. Vernon loved music, and he would spend most of his time playing guitar. Playing music was how he connected with the people, and that included the ladies, because, you know, ladies love...

Like, oh my god, he plays a guitar? You know. Yeah. And apparently Vernon loved flirting with the girls. But he had a little problem, which we'll get into a little bit later. He liked flirting with girls that were like 14. So...

Not ideal for the situation, but that's what he was doing. But at this point in his life, Vernon, he didn't really have any goals or like a sense of direction until he embraced the Seventh-day Adventist church, which I'm just going to call the SDAs because Seventh-day Adventist church is, you know, come on, it's me. Hi. I can't really talk.

So the SDA is a Protestant Christian denomination that's typically more strict on how people should live their life. Like, for example, a lot of them don't eat meat, which is totally fine, especially pork, and will follow some of the ancient scriptures like the Old Testament. You know, like stoning women to death and shit. Just kidding. I don't think they do that. But you know what I'm saying? Where it's like, women, you are...

Third in line, husband, kids, you're us. Shit like that, you get it. Now there's other Christians that mostly follow the teachings of Jesus or the New Testament as like their main focus. So these people, old school. They like it old school.

The other important thing the SDAs believed is that Jesus is coming back any minute now. Like he is coming, okay? And they must be prepared. This is a concept we will see pop up later and will become very important to understanding who the group was at the center of this dark story. But more on that later, I guess. Beep bop boop.

So there is this guy in the church whose name was Victor Hutef. Now, Victor had some very interesting ideas. He wrote a book called The Shepherd's Rod, which basically said we the people need to focus on the apocalypse even more than we already do. Like, it's coming, bitch, and we need to be ready.

Now, most religions have their own views about the end of times, and Victor based his idea of the apocalypse on what he described in the book of Revelation. It said that the end of days will be marked by something called the opening of the seven seals.

So the seven seals are the things that prevent all the biblical curses from being released. So like, you know, it's like a seal. Great. I'm glad we're on the same page. So it was written that when this time comes, a certain prophet will open the seal and

Right? And it will set into motion a freaking catastrophic event that would unfold just before Jesus returns to earth from heaven to save his followers. You know? Fuck yeah. They're super amped about this seal. So it was believed that only one special person could open this seal. There was just one person out there who could open that can. You know? Yeah.

And that person was called the Lamb of God. Bless them. They could open the seal. Incredible. Now, Victor, he considered himself to be the prophet that was sent directly by God. He said he wasn't the lamb. He's like, I'm not the lamb that can open up the seal. But he did claim that he was in direct contact with God. Like God was on speed dial. Beep, bop, boop. Hey, God. Hello.

Can I open that seal? You know? But the other members of the SDA church didn't think that this Victor guy was an actual prophet. They just thought he was more of a troublemaker. They're like, dude, he's up to no good. He's just claiming shit. So they kicked him out of the church. You gotta go. You're causing problems. Goodbye. Okay. But it turns out there were people in the church, members of the church, who were very loyal to Victor.

and they really believed in his teachings that the end was indeed coming, right? They had this fear in them. So they followed Victor. So in 1934, Victor decided to continue preaching his beliefs and purchased 189 acres of land in Waco, Texas. So he gets this land.

He invites all of his followers to come and stay with him. And since they had to split away from the SDAs, they had to rebrand essentially. So Victor called his group the Davidians after David from the Bible.

So a lot of the names and stuff you're going to hear comes from different Bible verses, but because we don't need to confuse ourselves with all of that, just going to kind of breeze past it. For example, they called this like new land area home, right? But it was called Mount Carmel, which is like it comes from a Bible verse.

And within the first few years, there was about 125 people that moved in and like lived there. They started to create their own little society and they sustained themselves with an orchard, a dairy farm, a sewage system, electricity, and they had their own printing press.

All of this was spread among 10 buildings. Like it was a big old community and it was just getting bigger because at that time it was said that they had over 100,000 members worldwide that were receiving like the literature that Victor was creating to spread his beliefs, you know? Great.

Even though the country was in the middle of the Great Depression, this little community was flourishing. Oh, yes. And it would continue to flourish until 1955 when Victor died at the age of 69. Ay, 69. Ay, what an age to go out, you know?

So when this happened, the Davidians had a little internal struggle. So Victor's widow started saying that she was now the prophet of God and thought she should be the new leader of the church, right? She's like, I'm in charge now. I was the wifey. I step in. But then another guy pops up and he was claiming that he was a prophet, that he was the lamb. Everyone was

eagerly waiting for and that he should be made the head of the church. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of fighting, bickering, whatever about this for a long time. And throughout it all, everyone who thought they were the prophet said they were the owners of both the compound and the church itself. So they're just fighting.

Great. Got it, Joan? Great. Good. Good. Okay. So then in the late 70s, a new and final group was created that split off from the Davidians.

Now it was the Branch Davidians. So they broke off and they became the Branch Davidians. Great. This group was named after a Bible passage where all of branches were described as being God's chosen ones. In the late 1960s, Israel was established as a country again. So to the Branch Davidians, they viewed this as a major sign that the apocalypse was just around the corner. Why, you ask? Let's not get into it. But that's what they believed.

So they focus their teachings and beliefs on the book of Revelations and the traditional teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist. That's like the simple way to explain it. Great.

So this is gonna lead us back to Vernon Howell. Remember Vernon? So Vernon grew up in the SDA church because his relatives have been members of this church for quite some time. When he was 18, he attended something called a church revival. Now, if you've ever attended a church, maybe you've heard of or been to like a revival retreat where you pretty much spend a weekend or a day and a bunch of church members get together and they just get like super amped up for Jesus. I went to one, it was like,

In the middle, we were like on a campground and we were like by campfire, just like, yay, Jesus. And then like there's always someone with a guitar. It's like that. Love it. So at this revival, they were focusing a lot on the apocalypse. Normally you just praise God, praise God, praise God. This one, they're like, the end is coming. We are all going to fucking die. Great.

So this really caught Vernon's attention. Even though the SDA's church taught many different things, Vernon seemed to like tune in and just focus, hyper focus on the teaching about the apocalypse. Like he kind of loved it. I think he just loved that shit.

He thought everything should be about the apocalypse because it was coming. Vernon spent tons of time reading the Bible and he was memorizing tons of different passages. And it was almost as if he was preparing or maybe even training to become some kind of leader.

So Vernon is in the SDA church, right? Now, before you can become like a leader of the church, you have to like be voted in by different members. Well, Vernon's behavior was really starting to bother a lot of other members in the church. They're like, he's focusing way too much on the apocalypse. Okay, we're about that, but not all about that. Like he was just a little extreme. There was this one time when Vernon was 20 and he started hitting on the pastor's daughter who was only 15 at the time.

And in order to justify his behavior, he was using different words from the scriptures he memorized to convince the pastor that he was going to marry her. Like he was going to marry her and you couldn't tell him no. Well, obviously this isn't gonna go over that well with the pastor and he absolutely declined it from happening. So because Vernon's extreme beliefs that the end was near was just all he focused on, the fact that he's hitting on his pastor's underage daughter

The church decided, the SDA church decided it'd be best if Vernon was removed, a.k.a. kicked the fuck out.

So Vernon kicked out, boo-hoo. He's like, no. Well, he's now looking for a new church to call home because church was his life. Like he needs it. He wants it. He doesn't know anything else. So he leaves the SDA church and then he comes across another one and it's called the Branch Davidians. Remember, we're circling back now to the Branch Davidians. It's similar to the SDAs, just a little bit more extreme.

You got it. Great. So by the time Vernon found the Branch Davidians, they were already super obsessed with the apocalypse. And again, their beliefs were very similar to the SDA's. So it was just a perfect match. Like it was easy for him to kind of join in with this group, this church.

At this point, the Branch Davidians lived a few miles outside of Waco, Texas on a huge plot of land. They sold off a lot of the original land, but they still had several buildings on the property, including a church, a dining hall, there was a gym, there was a gun range, of course, and apartments for different people to live in.

Now, at this time, there were about 150 people living there. And again, they kind of had like their own mini society. There was people doing jobs like building different structures, cooking, teaching the children, being security. I mean, they all took care of each other. There were whole families that lived at the Branch Davidian compound. And it said that it was just a very tight knit community.

So most of the people who lived in Waco and not on like the property, they didn't really have an issue with this religious group. Local towns people remember like pleasant interactions that they had with the Branch Davidians. They were nice people. I mean their way of life was different. But to the citizens of Waco, they thought like this is America, freedom of religion, bang bang, yeehaw. I don't know.

So it wasn't long until Vernon met a member of the church by the name of Rachel. Great. Now, Rachel, Rachel, she was only 14 years old. And Vernon, he was quite in love with this girl. Vernon! So to me, you, and Joan, my bird here, you know, that's pretty young. 14? Yeah. Well, at this time in Texas, kids that young could legally get married as long as the parents agreed to it.

So Vernon was pretty well liked in the church. So he asked his, Rachel's father, like, hey, can I get married to your daughter? And he approved, signed an agreement. Vernon and Rachel got married. Soon, the two of them went on to have a child. Now, rumor has it that Vernon over here was messing around with a lot of different ladies in the Branch Davidians.

He was like sampling the buffet, you know? His main little side lover was none other than the church leader of the Branch Davidians herself, 67-year-old Lois Roden. Lois, who was a widow at the time, found 28-year-old Vernon to be just a smoking hot babe. He was very passionate about his beliefs, and she just found it very attractive.

So the two of them would spend a lot of time together talking about the end of times, making out, doing whatever lovers do. And they tried to remain very secretive about their relationship. But many of the members inside the church, they knew what was going on. What's wild is that a lot of people were okay with it.

Probably because nobody seemed to dislike Vernon. But at the time, they also had a belief that, like, you weren't allowed to cheat and fidelity was just not a thing. So it was like, they're very flip-floppy over there. It's like, make up your damn mind. Okay? So you're probably wondering, Bailey, what's going on? I don't understand. How did Vernon go from macking it up with Lois to running what the media called a fully armed religious cult of 80 people? Question mark.

Because, yeah, it happens. And I'll tell ya, it involves multiple weddings, a corpse rising from the dead, some jail time, and...

An ad break. Hold on, BRB. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep, while you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

It's easy and you can save money by doing it from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner and more.

So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24, 7, 365 days a year. So you're protected no matter what. Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive.

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customer surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. This is an ad by BetterHelp. What are your self-care non-negotiables? The things you know make you feel better even when it's impossible to make time for them.

Like that workout you try to squeeze in between kids' activities, work, and everything else you have going on, and before you know it, it gets pushed to tomorrow. Sound familiar? But it's the moments when you feel like you have no time for yourself when those non-negotiables are more important than ever. Those are the things that keep you strong, healthy, motivated, and prepared to take on everything life demands of you. So why not make therapy one of them?

BetterHelp Online Therapy makes it easy to get started with affordable phone, video, or live chat sessions you can do from anywhere, and the option to message your therapist between sessions if anything comes up. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash darkhistory today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash darkhistory.

And we're back. Hello. You can probably imagine that Vernon dating the 67-year-old leader of a massive church commune as a side piece would cause a little bit of tension within the group. And, surprise, surprise, it did. Specifically with Lois' son. His name was George. You see, George, George Roden, he felt that he should be next in line to be the leader of this group, right? Like, it was his birthright.

But now with Vernon in the picture, this was like not guaranteed. Especially after Lois officially named Vernon her successor in 1984. Well, 1986 rolls around and guess what? Lois dies. Sad. Anyway, so the Branch Davidians, they split again. So within the church, you had some people who were like super hardcore Team George. And there was another side of people who were like, fuck yeah, Team Vernon. Okay.

Okay. They all believed the same religious teachings. The biggest difference within these groups was like who they thought should be the leader. Well, George, being the manly man he is, started wearing a gun to the meetings and started intimidating people, basically trying to get Mount Carmel for himself, but by force and intimidation. He even changed the name of the community to Rodenville after himself, George Roden. Yeah. Yeah.

So people are like wearing Team George shirts. People are like, yeah, Team George all day. And then there's Vernon's side, right? So Vernon started his own branch of the Branch Davidians. And this new group focused on the more religious beliefs within the group. Plus like a lot of people just really liked Vernon. So they were totally willing to follow him wherever he went, whatever he was doing.

One important change was that at this point, Vernon's followers started viewing him as a savior. Not the savior, but a savior, which is important to remember for later. So not the, he's an a, a savior. But remember earlier how the seventh seals of the apocalypse were said to be opened by someone called the Lamb of God?

Well, Vernon's deep understanding of this Bible had many of his followers believing that he was indeed the lamb chosen directly by God. To the Branch Davidians, he was somebody who was put here on earth to save the people directly from the fiery pits of hell. And with his new status as lamb, I know so many animals, seals, lambs, I guess that's it.

Vernon started saying that he received a message from God. Now that message you ask, well, you know, out of all the messages God could have left, you know, I mean, it's God, right? He could tell you anything, what's happening, what's going on, what's going on in the future, what you need to do, blah, blah, blah. But of course, God had one message for Vernon. Of course he did. And that one message that he needed to have multiple wives.

Typical dude, right? Like, oh yeah, God told me I need multiple wives. In fact, Vernon said that God wanted Vernon to have as many wives as he could possibly find. I'm so sure.

So Vernon went on to marry five additional wives other than Rachel. Their ages, 14, 12, 16, 17. There was like a 20-year-old as well. Like, wow, he really branched off with that 20-year-old. And two of them were actually sisters. So literally they were sister wives. Out of all the things God can say to you, have multiple wives? Like, come on, give me a goddamn break. Guys need to come up with some better ideas here.

All they dream about is having multiple wives. This is so lame.

Like you could take over the world and said they want more vaginas. It's weird. Vernon also said that the message from God told him that everybody in the community needed to be armed. So not only did God think he needed to have lots of titties, but not only he needs to have like a lot of guns as well. God's like, Vernon, you need tags in your life. What are tags? Titties, ass, and guns. America. America.

It was their right, not just as Americans, but as children of God to have tags. And he would read scripture that said things like, quote, from now on, let those who have no sword buy one, end quote.

So Vernon and his people went and bought some swords. But it's 1990s America, so swords equals guns. Whenever anybody got a little weird about this, Vernon would say that there were a lot of children in the community and they needed to be protected. Which there's nothing wrong with protection and whatnot, but...

You could use a condom, first of all. Now, Vernon's followers were loyal and willing to do anything for him, right? But not everybody was fully loyal to his cause. There were still a lot of people that broke off and followed George and his beliefs. In fact, George still controlled Mount Carmel at this point. And even though both George and Vernon had followers all over the

and they lived on the fricking same compound. They all believe that whoever controlled Mount Carmel was a true leader of the Branch Davidians. So at this point, they are both trying to one up each other in order to prove to the members like who actually had the powers of God. They're like, "I got the powers." And George is like, "No, I got the powers." So George decides to challenge Vern to a contest.

A contest where both of them would try to raise a corpse from the dead and show to all of their followers who really had God's powers. I mean, if you could raise someone from the dead, then I think you got God in you, right? I'd believe it. So there was a cemetery on the compound. So it was suggested by George that they try to bring one of the dead people back to life.

The grave that was chosen was of an older woman who had been dead for at least like 20 years at that point. So this wasn't like a freshly dead person. This was like a straight up skeleton person. You know what I'm saying? So if one of them could indeed bring her back, I think it would be enough proof who really had the powers of God within them. George was like, you down, Vern? You down? You ain't down.

come on Vern and Vern's like I'm down I'm down I'm not gonna back out so he agrees to meet George at the cemetery and bring this dead woman back to life but it turns out Vernon Vernon never actually intended to show up and instead he went right into the police hoping to get George arrested for disturbing a grave

Unfortunately for Vern though, the police can't actually do anything without some kind of proof that this George guy did indeed disturb a grave. And of course, Vernon is like, I can help with that because unlike Vernon, George really thought he could raise someone from the dead. So George tried his best to bring someone back from the dead and it failed because the

Of course it did, you know. So there's like a crowd. George is all embarrassed. He's like, oh my god, I couldn't bring this person back from the dead. So he ends up taking the woman's body and he hides it in a shed, in his shed. And he's like, it's probably safe there. I'm embarrassed. I'm going to go hide myself.

Well, Vernon wants to get George the fuck out of Mount Carmel. So he tries to show up to the compound with his little buddies and a bunch of like guns and get proof that George was abusing this corpse in some way. Like maybe take a picture of it. But these are like some petty ass divas. George had been tipped off and was ready for Vernon to show up. So George had his own group of people there with guns and they ended up having just a full on shootout.

Divas. They were blasting at each other for about 20 minutes before police showed up and arrested Vernon and his men. Nobody was killed. It was just like a lot of property damage from the different bullets coming from every direction. You get it. Okay, so here's what happened. Here's what happened, let me tell you. So they all get arrested, right? And they all have to go to court and they face a judge. Now the judge pretty much tells Vernon like, you're fine, you're safe, whatever.

And this pisses George off. George starts yelling at the judge, starts cursing him out. And obviously this doesn't go over well. No. I guess George was just like very upset that Vern wasn't going to be spending time in prison. And he told the judge that he hoped he got AIDS because of this. That's what George said to the judge. I hope you get AIDS. Yeah, that's not good, bro. Bro, calm down.

Okay, well, the judge was like, you fucked up. Had George arrested for being in contempt of court. Long story short, George was arrested. Vernon got to go back home. So guess what? Vernon's plan worked. George was now out of the way. Guess who owned the land? Vernon. He's like, it's mine. Bye.

George gets arrested by George, the curious little monkey, and George's life kind of goes downhill from here. And he never, he's never really able to get back to Mount Carmel to hang on to his power, which was great news for Vernon. He didn't really care how it happened. He just wanted George out of the goddamn way. With George gone, Vernon saw his opportunity to fully step in and become the leader of the Branch Davidians.

But before taking over, he's like, hold on, BRB, gonna take a trip to Israel. Okay, so he goes to Israel. He meets some of his followers and he got in touch with some biblical locations to like deeper his relationship with God.

At that point, Vernon felt like he needed to rebrand because he was bored of his birth name. Like he needed something stronger, powerful, something that screamed leader. And Vernon Howell, you know what was his name, Vernon Howell, it just wasn't like the name of a leader. So he busted open the Bible and started skimming through looking for some kind of inspiration. He's like, hmm, flipping the pages.

Hmm, Judas? No, too much baggage. John? Nah, I need something with like more pizzazz. David? That feels right. You know, Vernon could have relate with David. I mean, Vernon felt like he just took down Goliath. Vernon was David, David was Vernon. So for Vernon's first name, he took the name of the famous biblical King David.

So for his last name, 'cause he needs a new last name. Howell's not gonna do it. David Howell sounds like a teacher, no offense. So for his last name, he's like, "I'm gonna do Koresh," which is actually Hebrew for the name Cyrus. And the biblical Cyrus was a king who freed Jewish people from the captivity in Babylon. Very complicated.

Well, it's not complicated, but like, you know, Koresh. So just two strong names from the Bible that Vernon relates to on a deeper spiritual level. So Vernon, Vernon Howe is now dead to us. He's still alive, but his name is now David Koresh. Okay. Enter to the scene, David Koresh. There he is, man.

Miss America. I'm just kidding. But hold on. We have to take a little ad break. BRB. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep. While you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

It's easy and you can save money by doing it from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner, and more. So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24, 7, 365 days a year so you're protected no matter what.

Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customer survey who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. Rakuten is the smartest way to save money when you shop because members get cash back at over 3,500 stores across every category.

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Your cash back really adds up. So a lot's happened. Are you following? Are you paying attention? Crush kind of reminds me of like some kind of pie, right? Like pie? No? Okay. Anyways, so here's where we get into the meat and potatoes of it all. I'm hungry, I think. So things were going pretty well for the Branch Duvideans at this point. By 1991, they started recycling all the old lumber from their old cottages and like upgraded and built a bigger church for everybody.

The message that David Koresh was spreading was becoming very popular and soon the rest of the world started to take notice. Most of the people who had lived here at the time had been a part of the Branch Davidians or even the SDAs for generations, but now people were coming from all over the world just to hear what this David guy had to say. People of multiple races and many different age groups including dozens of children, like they had a choice, whatever.

One source described the Branch Davidians as a, quote, clean and courteous, end quote, people. Everybody within the community was committed to making their lives on Mount Carmel just the best that it could be. So all the people who lived on the compound or attended the church would give all of the money they earned from working different jobs around Waco. And they would just contribute in any way to make the compound better by working, working

weeding, I mean doing anything they can just to make it a good place. One of the ways they made money from Mount Carmel was by buying and selling guns. They opened a mail order business called the Mack Bag on their property that sold all kinds of guns. There was like rifles, pistols, bulletproof vests, all sorts of like gun stuff.

Soon they took this operation on the road and started selling all of their merchandise at gun shows across the country. Now, the gun industry was booming in Texas. And, like, plus the right to bear arms. Oh, my God, animals. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, the right to bear arms was something David loved about America. So David was getting pretty famous all over the world for his religious beliefs. When you get that famous, people really start coming out of the woodworks and accuse you of some wild shit.

The press and the government started reporting that the Branch Davidians were stockpiling weapons, making claims that they were a violent militia group and saying that something needed to be done about them. Now, the Branch Davidians would claim that this stockpile, I'm using quotes here, was their inventory that they were actually going to sell for their gun business, remember? Because they're selling guns. So this is like their inventory. But to other people, it looked like they were preparing for a war.

Around this time, rumors. There's always rumors. Rumors. Have you noticed? Have you been paying attention here? Here and on Murder, Mystery, and Makeup, rumors is the root of all.

of everything. As soon as rumors start spreading around, okay, that something's going on, it blows up into this massive, massive thing. And this is another example because there's rumors going around town that David and the Branch Davidians were not only stockpiling weapons, but they were also modifying them and making them way more dangerous. And it turns out that it was illegal to modify weapons. So the

The part of the government that deals with major weapon crimes like this is called the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, also known as the ATF. Not ATV because I was thinking brah brah. No brah brah. ATF. So the ATF got word, of course, whispers, rumors, that this church compound was receiving some very suspicious packages. Hmm.

Packages that looked kind of large, like large shipments of weapons, maybe even explosives. Was it more inventory for the mag bag or was it something to be used for something larger, something illegal? Were they trying to take over the world? I don't know. The ATF wasn't sure, but David's followers said he was intelligent and passionate and in no way was he ever like,

seen as dangerous or threatening. Well, the ATF was not convinced, oh nay nay, and needed to further investigate, but they didn't want to tip off the Branch Davidians as to what they were doing, you know? They had to like undercover investigate the situation.

So they came up with the undercover plan where they would pose, some police officers, ATV, ATF people, would pose as young college students who lived nearby and were just hanging around, watching people come and go at the compound. It would have been a good plan, except that none of the ATF agents actually looked like college students. Now, you see, it was obvious to the Branch Davidians that these guys were actually federal agents.

Yeah. How'd they know? I don't know. The facial hair? Okay. The thick ass mustache? The freaking nice ass car? What college student has a nice ass car? Pay attention. It's small details. Okay. Before the ATF decided to make their move, a local newspaper started publishing a series of articles titled Sinful Messiah, which were all about David.

And as you might have guessed with a title like that, those articles were not very pro-David. So within this article, they were talking about different allegations of child abuse, statutory rape, polygamy, right? That was going on like within the compound within that church group. They also said that David had 140 wives, right?

Now, the articles would also reveal that David would promote this idea to the Branch Davidians that he was the only one allowed to have sex, like, at all, because he was the Messiah chosen by God.

Of course. There's this passage in the book of Revelations about 24 chosen children going on to be the 24 leaders of the earth after the apocalypse happens. And so David made it his goal to have 24 children, right? Because they're going to save the earth. Great. So he would encourage his followers to not participate in anything the regular world would consider culture.

No music from the outside, no TV, no dancing, no candy, no sex, no movie, you know, nothing except for reading the Bible.

Because of these beliefs, the Branch Davidians were considered extremists who had been brainwashed by David. This was a huge deal in the small town of Waco and only pushed David into a deeper, darker, secluded, paranoid hole, you know? Like the jig is up and the ATF agents needed to come up with a plan of action fast because like this group is up to something, okay? And they need to break it up.

So the ATF wanted to break up this group fast because, one, there are children on this compound. There's abuse allegedly going on. They have all these weapons, right? And polygamy, 100 and something wives. They got to break this situation up. Like no one should have 100 and something wives unless all of us could have 100 and something wives. You know what I'm saying? So they had to break it up.

Now, the compound at this point was on 77 acres of land. So Waco and the surrounding towns knew of the Branch Davidians, but they were like on the outskirts away from everything. So like out of sight, out of mind for a lot of people. They didn't really give a shit.

But that was before the Sinful Messiah article came out. So once this article came out, there was rumors about all these wives, the children potentially being abused. I don't know. Allegedly is the right word.

So people started to throw around the word cult. Cult is out there in the works making its round. There's a lot of people living on this compound and it was believed that a lot of them were being held against their will. And since it's a cult and it's been given the name of cult, these people didn't know how to escape, how to leave, how to get out. So the ATF gets a warrant for the arrest of David Koresh.

and decides that the time is now. They have to go in, break it up before anything bad happens or anything more happens, I should say. Now this is where the whole story gets really freaking fishy.

Okay. Two of the reasons listed on the warrant to search the compound was that they thought drugs were either being used or manufactured, and they believed David was abusing the children. Here's the thing. The ATF doesn't handle drugs or child abuse. Alcohol, tobacco, firearms. The DEA handles drugs. Who handles child abuse? I forget, but not the ATF.

So the other thing is in a normal ATF raid, okay, they would not train for days at a military base beforehand, which is what the ATF did before hitting the Waco situation. Like it was like, why? Why'd they do that? Finally,

If you're the ATF, what you don't do is you don't call up the press to come and record everything before launching like this full-blown siege on a group of people that you believe to be armed and unhinged. Wouldn't that give up your element of surprise? Question mark? Well, before I answer that little question of ours, we need to pause for an ad break.

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The date is February 28th, 1993. The number one movie in the box office is Groundhog Day. The number one song was I Will Always Love You by Whitney Houston. And the number one thing happening in Waco, Texas is the ATF.

They decided that today was the day they were going to make their move on the Branch Davidians. They had a search warrant for the Branch Davidian compound and they had an arrest warrant for David Koresh. They were going to get him no matter what. So normally when the ATF would do a raid, they would go in at like 5 or 6 a.m. to like really make sure that no one was expecting anything. You know, the element of surprise.

But the day of the Waco raid, they changed it up a bit. They decided they would go in at 10 a.m. because they were hoping they wouldn't have to shoot anybody, thinking that everybody would be at work. What I'm getting at is, like, they kind of went off plan a lot with this one. And we don't know why. Like, that's why it's hella fishy. Like, it's just bizarre, the ATF. They were up to something, and we don't know what they were up to.

Anyways, unfortunately, the ATF like showing up later not to shoot anybody, it didn't really work out. Apparently, what happened was David's brother had gone into town. And while he was there, a reporter had gone up to him and asked for directions to the Branch Davidian compound. And he was like, what? What do you want that for? Like, that's kind of weird. And the reporter goes, well, I want to be sure to document the ATF raid.

So yeah, it turns out nobody would be at work at 10 a.m. because they all knew the raid was coming. So the Branch Davidians did what anyone would do when they found out someone is going to attack their home. They...

stayed inside and get ready to defend it. So when the ATF shows up on the scene, they're wearing bomb suits that look like an astronaut suit. Yeah, it's very intense. It's intense gear and it looks like they're going to war. Because remember, they think they're about to raid the home of a madman just manufacturing all kinds of crazy insane weapons. And the media came too. They brought hundreds of cameras to record what was about to go down.

Well, to start, the ATF had three helicopters hovering near the backside of the house. So they were hoping that this would distract them from the truckloads of ATF agents rolling up towards the front door, hidden in cattle trailers. So nobody really knows what happens next. Actually, I feel like we kind of know what happens next because there's video footage of it, but everybody has a different account as to what happened.

So the ATF and the members of the media claimed that they were shot at by the Branch Davidians immediately upon arrival. And so they were forced to fire back. Self-defense. However, the Branch Davidians claimed that the ATF fired the first shots and video evidence from the encounter shows that the ATF started firing almost immediately afterwards.

Now, if the Branch Davidians fired first, then it must have been right when the ATF agents pulled up because it was hard to see any evidence of that on camera. There was court testimony when everything was over, stating that when David saw the ATF approaching, he told the women and children to hide and to start praying while the men suited up with military-grade weapons and prepared for the encounter.

So I guess, you know, it doesn't matter about the first shot, even though it kind of does, whatever. But very quickly, okay, Waco, Texas became a little, a battlefield. Not even little. It was a freaking complete battlefield. Bullets flying everywhere. That was my bullets.

Great. Bullets flying everywhere. ATF agents taking cover. The compound had like some water tanks there, right? Water. And the ATF destroyed those, the tanks, so that the buildings would flood because the water was like going into the house. The resulting gun battle lasted for at least 90 minutes, which left four ATF agents dead and more than 20 wounded.

On the other side of the compound, five Branch Davidians were killed and more were injured, but we don't know exactly how many. David himself said he was shot in the side, but otherwise he was okay. One member of the Davidians, a 17-year-old boy named Peter, was on top of a silo. Google it, because I don't know what the fuck that is.

The Branch Davidian would later claim that the ATF gunned him down from their helicopter and his body stayed up there for five days. Actually, there was video footage of this. I watched it. It's freaking awful.

Okay, so the problem here is that the ATF told David the helicopters didn't have guns. When the FBI negotiator called David later, David told him like, there's no way that's true. Those helicopters just destroyed a bunch of shit with bang, bang guns. So the ATF was like, well, the guns aren't mounted. So technically the helicopters don't have guns. The people have guns on the helicopters.

Now, two hours later, the ATF and the Branch Divisions agreed to stop shooting at each other, and the ATF pulled their people back. Okay, so the ATF is backing down. Everybody's backing down, right? But there's still a standoff going on. So the ATF is getting a movement, and because there's like children inside of the compound and the shooting and the weapons and all of that, the government decides to step in and sends out the FBI to now take over.

So the FBI had the goal of making sure nobody else died and ended up bringing their crisis management team along because in their mind, this needed to be treated as a hostage situation. There might've been people there against their will. They don't know. This idea of hostages was mainly due to the way the media was covering the events. They were portraying the Branch Davidians as like some kind of overly militarized cult, but some surviving members of the Branch Davidians still say that like...

That was never actually the case. They said that everyone was there by choice. They're just protecting their land. They're building their family, right? Now, in their mind, they were just a religious group and the government just showed up to their compound and started blasting at them for no rhyme or reason. I mean, they could have knocked. Did they try that? No, they just started shooting.

So once the FBI showed up, nothing really happened right away. David and the Branch Davidians refused to leave because they felt they hadn't broken the law. And the ATF was in the wrong for attacking them in the first place. But after you kill several federal agents, they don't just like go away.

you know? So it became the start of just a really long standoff with the FBI and the ATF blocking every road leading to Mount Carmel. Now that was preventing anyone from coming or going to and from the compound.

And this wasn't just to keep the Branch Davidians inside. At this point, word of the chaos was all over the news. They were showing it on TV. People were watching at home with their popcorn, like what's gonna happen? There were like tons of reporters and camera people just everywhere. And there were tons of curious onlookers. They were driving from all over the freaking country to watch what was happening and to get as close as they possibly could

to Mount Carmel and like what was going on. So the FBI quickly established contact with David and the other members inside the compound.

Phone calls, you know, they're talking on the phone. They even sent video cameras to the Branch Davidians inside so they could record themselves inside and make sure that everyone's okay. And they were like sending like little messages, the members of the Branch Davidians. They're like, hi, my name's Debra and I'm a Branch Davidian and I went to Harvard and I'm inside right now.

You could watch them. I watched them all. It was very interesting. It wasn't too long before the FBI managed to negotiate a deal with David. They wanted all the Branch Davidians to leave the compound and surrender. And David agreed on one condition. The FBI needed to make a radio broadcast across the entire country of an hour-long audio recording David had made.

The FBI was like, fine, sure, you've got it, and handed it over to every radio station everywhere. So it was on this tape. It was an entire hour of David speaking about his beliefs while referring to himself as the Lamb of God. And at multiple points, he promises to immediately leave the compound as soon as the tape aired.

Well, as night fell in Waco, there was no movement in the compound and it became clear to the FBI and the ATF agents that David was not going to hold up on his end of the bargain. When he was asked later why he didn't leave, he said that God told him to wait. Over the next month...

Month. A month goes by. The FBI did manage to negotiate the release of 35 people, including 21 children. It was always just a few people at a time. Like they would ask for food or something and the FBI would be like, okay, give us two people and we'll give you some milk. You know, so they do like a little trade. And they never let everyone out of at once. But this was really the only thing that David could use to negotiate.

What the Branch Davidians didn't know is that the FBI had inserted little microphones inside like the milk cartons that they sent in so they could listen in on their plans and have time to react if they thought something dangerous was going to happen. They really went all out. Could you imagine if they put this much energy into like really stopping major crimes? Wow. Wow. We have to take a little ad break. BRB. BRB.

Hi. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep. While you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

It's easy and you can save money by doing it from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner and more.

So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24-7, 365 days a year, so you're protected no matter what. Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive.

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customer survey who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. This is an ad by BetterHelp. What are your self-care non-negotiables? The things you know make you feel better even when it's impossible to make time for them.

Like that workout you try to squeeze in between kids' activities, work, and everything else you have going on, and before you know it, it gets pushed to tomorrow. Sound familiar? But it's the moments when you feel like you have no time for yourself when those non-negotiables are more important than ever. Those are the things that keep you strong, healthy, motivated, and prepared to take on everything life demands of you. So why not make therapy one of them?

BetterHelp Online Therapy makes it easy to get started with affordable phone, video, or live chat sessions you can do from anywhere, and the option to message your therapist between sessions if anything comes up. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash darkhistory today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash darkhistory.

So David said everyone who was there wanted to be there and was allowed to leave whenever they wanted. The FBI would also record all of their phone conversations with David and then play them back on a loudspeaker. The point of all of this was to show the Branch Davidians how much of a manipulator he was, hoping it would inspire some of the people inside to leave. And it did.

You know, some did leave. Sometimes it seemed voluntary and sometimes it was clear that David was just releasing them. The entire standoff with the Branch Davidians and the FBI and all that nonsense, it ended up lasting a whopping 51 days. That's longer than Lent.

In total, David had about 117 conversations with FBI negotiators that lasted about 60 hours in total. But things froze up when David felt the FBI was being disrespectful towards their property by doing things like driving tanks over graves, destroying the trees and buildings.

and not keeping the promises they made over the course of the negotiations. So they were thinking like the group might do a Heaven's Gate situation, pull mass suicide.

This was, again, because the media had been reporting that they were planning to do something like that. Like, honestly, the media was fueling the fire and they were making it way worse. They were making the public believe that these people were fucking crazy, that they were going to blow everybody up. They were going to blow the whole damn Waco up. It was just insane. Like, they should have been held accountable for what they were reporting. I said it.

Damn it. And at the end of the day, David never said that he was ever going to do this. Never. So things got, things went from zero to a hundred all because of the media. They have so much power and they don't even realize it.

Sorry, I'm just like processing and thinking at the same time. So the FBI decided to increase the heat and chose to use some questionable tactics. For instance, they would just like shine super bright lights into the windows at night for hours at a time.

Okay, then they would blast recordings of like rabbits screaming, different animal noises, as well as like super loud music, like Nancy Sinatra's Boots Are Made For A Walk In, but they'd play it on repeat, right? And if that wasn't enough, they cut off all the water, gas, and electricity to the compound. Basically, psychological warfare meant to drive people inside the compound insane. And

And later when the FBI was asked like, hey, why did you guys do this? Do you have a comment? The FBI declined to talk about it. They're like, what are you talking about? We didn't do that.

even though it was on videotape. Just shady. During the FBI's negotiation calls, the Branch Davidians would actually beg the FBI to stop all of this, but they're not going to listen because they want this whole thing to be over. There are a lot of stories about how the female church members would look outside their windows and see the FBI agents mooning them, mooning them like pulling their pants down, like they're fucking kindergartners. It's bizarre.

or how the tanks would just drive around in circles, knocking all of the Branch Davidians stuff down. Remember that kid Peter from earlier who got shot on top of that thing that I don't know, Silo? So the Branch Davidians had buried his body nearby, and the calls, the FBI like negotiation calls, detailed the tanks literally driving in circles over this grave, just being super disrespectful.

So in April, a month and a half into this long ass standoff, the FBI decided they were going to take the Branch Davidians out by force. Okay, they're not waiting around anymore. They're wasting money. They're wasting time. We got shit to do. Apparently not, but they're acting like it. FBI agents were placed outside of the building and then big ass tanks would punch holes in the walls to pump tear gas into them.

The problem with the tear gas was that like they were using CS gas, which is not at all recommended to be used on children. In some cases, it's not even recommended for adults. I don't know who it's for, but it's not for nobody.

experts say that there was no gas mask inside the compound that could fit kids, meaning they had no protection from this harmful gas. And that if like they even survived being exposed to it for that long, many of them would end up in critical condition. So how do you think a heavily armed group with their own big ass gun store would react to something like this?

They're like, we've got a lot of guns. Remember? Let's just use them. And guess what they did, bitch? They sure did. The Branch Davidians immediately started opening fire on the FBI outside of the building. And once again, during a shooting war, this time with the FBI, because they fired back. Eventually, the gunfire died down and it became clear that they couldn't get to David without risking the lives of everyone who was like with him.

Now, we don't know exactly what happened next inside of that building. For six hours, nobody left Mount Carmel Center. And then just a few minutes after noon, the building exploded in flames. Exploded. Exploded.

First, it was one fire, but then seconds later, there were two more explosions. Soon, most of the compound was just one big ass inferno. Now, there's another part that nobody really has an answer to. Who started the freaking fire? Okay. If the FBI started it, then they basically committed a war crime, attacking civilians, some of them unarmed, and basically burning them alive. And children. Okay.

If the Branch Davidians started it, the media can label it a crazy cult that has gone off the deep end and like they just killed themselves. They pulled a heaven's gate, you know? But here's what we do know. There's evidence that the fire started right as one of the tanks were inserting more tear gas into the building. And some of the Branch Davidians who survive say that the CS tear gas is flammable when it first comes out of the canister and that's when the fire started.

They say that the fire ignited quickly and traveled through the halls of the building, lighting everything in its path. But of course, the government has to cover their ass. And chemical experts came in and they were like, well, the CS gas is actually flame resistant and it wouldn't be able to start a fire. There's just no way. Plus, remember how they had microphones in the milk cartons they sent in?

Well, in those recordings, they could hear Branch Davidians talking about lighting the fire. And the last recording they picked up was someone saying, keep those fires going. Some of the FBI agents said they heard more gunfire at this time, but more likely it was just exploding ammunition from the fire. It's just a lot of he said, she said. Okay, that could have really been avoided by just maybe going up to the front door and knocking.

I just solved everything. I should be in charge. Hey, just go knock on their door. And all this could have been prevented. Because it doesn't matter. No matter who started the fire, the aftermath was awful. It was devastating. In the end, nine people were able to escape, but more than 75 people remained inside the building. Everyone who was inside the building died in the fire.

Men, women, children. Oh, it was awful. Later reports would say that over 80 were inside, but the fire was so bad that it was hard to count the exact loss of life. Among the dead was David Koresh himself, the lamb of God. And also 25 of those people who died were children.

Another thing that was pretty interesting about this was when they did an autopsy of the bodies after the fire, at least 19 of the people who died were killed by gunshot wounds from point-blank range. One of the children had been stabbed to death, the poor thing. He was singled out for some reason. David just went off. He was like, and David Koresh himself had been shot in the exact center of his forehead.

Now we don't know what happened. Did he kill himself? Did the group kill the people inside? Was that from other people? We don't know. Well, after everything went down, 11 Branch Davidians were criminally charged for their actions during the siege. Between all 11 of them, two of them were released and the other nine would each get prison time between five to 40 years, depending on the severity of their charges. But that all relates to criminal charges for the people inside the compound.

What about the government agencies involved in the horrific events back in 1993? Shouldn't they be held accountable? I mean, what the fuck were they doing? People had questions. They wanted answers. Like, who started the damn fire? Did all those people need to die? Why did they bring tanks and use tear gas on unarmed women and children? Was the report that there was children abuse accurate or was it based on just rumors within the ATF?

And why was the ATF serving a warrant for child abuse and drug charges when they don't even handle that shit? And most importantly, who shot first? Were the Branch Davidians preparing for an apocalyptic battle or were they simply defending themselves?

That was a lot of questions I asked. I obviously have a lot of questions and no answers. The pressure from the public to investigate the events of Waco led to a congressional hearing involving the politicians and federal agents who authorized the attack, as well as the surviving members of the Branch Davidians. Now, the problem was less than a month after the fire that ended it all. Texas state authorities bulldozed the site, making additional forensic evidence impossible to gather.

whatever information they already uncovered was all that they would be able to use, like to piece together what had happened. They were trying to clear off all their evidence, hide everything that they fucked up and did wrong, little bitches. All these hearings broadcasted live to the world. We were able to like hear from both sides of this crisis.

It was such a joke. This is where many of the details I talked about throughout this story came to light. Because at the time, the only truth that was available was what the press was saying. And let me tell you, the press was not telling the truth. They were just fucking assholes. Oh, wait, they still are. Yeah. And no one holds them accountable for the lies that they spew. It's very bizarre, ain't it? That's another conversation that we should have another day.

Everyone viewed the Brajnavideans as just another crazy ass cult, okay? But they were actually like smart, kind, and in many ways just normal ass people who wanted to be a part of this religious group.

These hearings showed that the ATF and FBI overstepped in more ways than one. Although, through scientific testimonies and the reviewing of hours of video and audio recordings, Congress determined that there was no criminal conspiracy by any member of the FBI or ATF to kill the Branch Davidians. So nobody was charged or punished for it. Pause because what the fu- Yeah.

Dude, no one ever holds the FBI or the government accountable. How come? What's that about?

I should mention that years later, in 1999, a whistleblower pointed out that even though the FBI swore they didn't use any type of fire-starting materials on the compound, pyrotechnics were found in an evidence locker. In other words, they lied about using fire-starting materials during the siege and kept it from congressional hearing. Well, there was a special committee that formed to investigate the new evidence. They're always fucking investigating and they never find shit. What?

Why don't they like set up us, the people, to investigate? I bet you we would find some shit, huh? Me and you going, I can investigate. I'm sure I'd come across some shit, okay? Anyways, so a new committee starts and they're investigating the new evidence and they found that it was still clear that the fire was not started by the FBI agents based on where the fires were when the pyrotechnic devices were used.

But how would they know? They bulldozed the land and stuff. How do they know what the fuck they're talking about? It's just so exhausting. But on the other hand...

left hand, was there a way to approach the group like the Davidians that result in like no deaths? Maybe the initial deaths could have been avoided when the ATF came in if they had cooled off a little bit, you know, but they were locked down for 51 days and many people left the compound unscathed. If they wanted to avoid 80 deaths, they could have left the compound many times.

But they believed that God told them to stay, so they couldn't. There's no way they deserve those deaths, but David had a responsibility to protect his people too. And he chose to take a stand and it went the wrong way in the end. To this day, there's no definitive conclusion as to who the fault lies with. It's very clear it's the government's responsibility and all of this could have been avoided. All of this, okay?

By ringing the doorbell or by knocking on the door, you little bitches. Anyways, but we'll never know what the exact motivations were for like David Koresh and for the government because David is dead, R.I.P. And the government just loves our little secret.

But what we do know is this, a government with a lot of military power behind it descended on a small Texas town, guns blazing, and created a global firestorm that is still debated to this day.

Yeah, because you can ask tons of people and some people are like, oh, crazy cult, crazy cult. And then other people were like, oh no, government. Government's to blame. It's just like a lot of back and forth. Okay, so you know, for those of you out there, the Oklahoma City bombing guy. Well, I guess he was doing it as revenge to the government for what happened in Waco, which I didn't know that either. Like everything's so interconnected, right?

Anyways, what I'm getting at is in my personal humble opinion, and remind you, I'm a nobody on a couch drinking alcohol 'cause it's almost my birthday. I believe that the government was 100% at fault and they should have held some kind of accountability for this. They killed a lot of innocent people. For what? What was achieved? It's not like a national holiday or anything. Like what did we get out of it? And did your tax dollars pay for that? Interesting.

Can we get a refund? Do we get a refund? A tax deduction? Something. I mean, what do we get when shit goes wrong? For Christ's sakes. Well, everyone, thank you so much for learning with me today about Waco. Did we learn anything new? What about you, Joan?

Joan, you dirty little bitch. She's so silly. I can't tell you what she said. It was very inappropriate. Anyways, thank you so much for hanging out with me today. Remember, don't be afraid to ask questions, you know, to get the whole story about something.

Plus like it's being curious isn't a bad thing, okay? Right. Now I'd love to hear your reactions to the story. So make sure to use the hashtag dark history over on social media so I can follow along and see what you're saying. Anyways, join me over on my YouTube where you can watch these episodes on Thursday after the podcast airs and also it's Thanksgiving. So happy Thanksgiving.

And also, don't forget to check out Murder Mystery Makeup, which drops on Mondays. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. You make good choices. It's my birthday, and I'll be talking to you next week. Bye! Dark History is an Audioboom original.

This podcast is executive produced by me, Bailey Sarian, Kim Jacobs, Dunja McNeely from 3Arts, Justin Cummins, and Claire Turner from Wheelhouse DNA. Produced by Lexi Kiven, Daryl Christon, and Spencer Strassmore.

Research provided by Thomas Messersmith. Writers, Jed Bookout, Michael Oberst, Joey Scavuzzo, and me, Bailey Sarian. And also, if you didn't know, I'm your host, Bailey Sarian. It's my birthday, so wish me a happy birthday, goddammit. Hey, say bye, Joan. You're such a bitch. She's so rude.

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