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You know that one good tank top that you wear like all year round? I mean it fits you just right so you wear it all the time but maybe now it's getting a little old. Shifting my wardrobe from summer to fall is always a challenge. Luckily, Quince offers timeless and high quality items that I
I love so I can make sure my wardrobe stays fresh and I don't blow my budget. They've got cashmere sweaters from $50, pants for every occasion, washable silk tops. And my favorite part, all Quince items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman
and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I recently got this 100% European linen short sleeve shirt. Ooh, I love linen. And you know, it was so comfortable, so cute. I can finally retire my old ratty tank top.
RIP. Make switching seasons a breeze with Quince's high quality closet essentials. Go to quince.com slash dark history for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash dark history to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash dark history.
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep, while you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.
It's easy and you can save money by doing it from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner and more.
So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24-7, 365 days a year, so you're protected no matter what. Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive.
Hamburgers used to be one of the most feared foods in America.
And now we eat 50 billion of them every single year. Oh, we love a goddamn burger, don't we? I mean, it's like sacred to us. There was a study done that shows way more people recognize the McDonald's golden arches over the Christian cross. Gasp!
And we're not hooked on burgers or fast food in general just because it's convenient. I mean, fast food corporations have hired Ivy League scientists to create menu items that are so addicting to our taste buds, I mean, that our brains can't tell the difference between a Big Mac and crack cocaine. Whoa. I know. Crazy. If you're going to choose one, I say go with the crack cocaine every time. Why don't they just mix the two together?
Hi friends, I hope you're having a wonderful day today. My name is Bailey Sarian and I'd like to welcome you to my podcast, Dark History. This is a chance to tell a story like it is and to share the history of stuff we would never think about. So all you have to do is sit back, relax, and let's talk about that hot, juicy history gossip.
Well, friends, look, today I want to talk about fast food because first of all, I'm hungry. Second of all, it's really important to many of us. I mean, 83% of American families eat at a fast food restaurant at least once a week. I mean, even though we're constantly told like it's going to kill us, you know, stop doing that. But like you can't.
because the fries are so good. But let's be honest, when we bite into a burger, I mean, you're not thinking about any of those expose documentaries. And we're not worried about the nutrition facts. I mean, we kind of know what we're getting ourselves into, right? But look, I mean, doesn't everyone deserve a little treat every now and then? Please? Isn't it all about moderation or something like that?
For most of us, fast food is nostalgic. And guess what? I mean, that's on purpose, babe. Okay, look, fast food reminds us of a simpler time in our childhood when like calories didn't matter. You just play outside and run in the sprinklers. And like nobody thought about saturated fats or high fructose corn syrup. We played outside and just ate whatever, right? I mean, ignorance is bliss. But somehow over time, we still can't quit fast food.
Even though we know it's not healthy, right? We all know that, I think. So, I mean, what's the deal? Why is it so easily accessible if it's so bad for us?
Okay, so this story begins with a place called the Automat, which sounds like, you know, a mechanic or something to do with like an auto vehicle, right? But actually it's, 'cause I'm a dumb ass, I learned that it's a cafeteria style restaurant. For decades, the Automat was the place to get pre-made food
And it all started on June 12th, 1902, when business partners Joseph Horn and Frank Hardart opened their first automat in Philadelphia. So they designed the automat after a very similar and very popular restaurant in Germany. So the restaurant had these cute wall-to-wall glass windows. And so behind those windows were little slots that were filled with tons of different kinds of food. I mean, it was everything from cake to buns,
to steak, all freshly made behind the scenes. So it was like really nice. All you need to do is put a nickel into the slot. You turn a little knob, lift the glass door, and then you get your food. Who would have thought that this would be such an idea? But it was. And as soon as the food disappeared, I mean, a worker behind the scenes would put the food back, replace it. It was magical.
It was essentially like a vending machine, except it was said that the food at the Automat, it tasted like something that was a home-cooked meal. You know, not something that you just kind of like purchase really quick. And the Automat, it became so popular that Horn and Hard Art opened up a second location just a month later, right smack in the middle of Times Square, New York City, baby. I mean, imagine that. You go and see a Broadway show, and then you get some meatloaf and like a piece of cake for...
A freaking dime. Can you imagine that? No, none of us can. We know nothing about that life. Anyway, the best part about the Auto Mat, it was accessible to everyone. So 1902, city workers were getting paid way below the minimum wage and their lunch breaks were getting cut shorter and shorter. And there just weren't many options for quick meals on the go. They didn't have much time, you know? So at the Auto Mat, most of the food was between five and 10 cents, which
is around or would be around $2 today. And then on top of that, there's no waiters. So you don't have to worry about tipping. It was just a steal. Five to 10 cents. Great.
Plus the auto mat was for everyone. I mean, not just lower income workers. At the time, the biggest food trend were these things called dining rooms. Dining rooms, darling. Which were kind of like a country club where you eat, but it was mainly for like the super rich. But soon even the 1% wouldn't be able to resist the convenience of the auto mat.
There's this great documentary called The Automat. That's what it's called, The Automat, where, quote, there was all kinds of people from poor people to matrons and furs. I mean, it was a common ground area. They even had these amazing ads all over like the local papers that said, try it. You'll like it. It's in all caps. So it's like yelling at you, you know, and you're like, OK, get it. And then like there's even ones that would apply or like a
to families that said, less work for mother. Okay, yeah, give mom a break. Automats even managed to stay open during the Great Depression in the 30s since they offered affordable, stable comfort foods like macaroni and cheese, baked beans, and like creamed spinach. So it was like, sign me up, you know?
And the automat was at its height in the 40s. By then there were over 157 versions all around America and they served over 500,000 people a day. But even the automat couldn't compete with like what was coming. I'm talking about the hamburger. I don't know why I went with German, but I did. Hamburger. Pink Panther. Oh, was that in Pink Panther?
Anyway, so over in Wichita, Kansas, a young man was about to change the face of fast food forever. I know, drama. His name was J. Walter Anderson. And as the legend goes, in the early 1900s, J. was working at a Wichita diner. And I guess he was like frying up some meatballs. And for some reason, maybe he was having just an off day, but J., he got real frustrated. He takes his spatula.
And he slams it down on one of the meatballs, just taking out all his anger on the fricking meatball. And he picked up that flat, girthy, juicy piece of meat. And for some odd reason, he puts it between two buns, don't know what was on his mind, and both. Hamburger. This is the moment that the American hamburger, the one we all know and love, was born.
You're welcome. Jay was confident in this burger and this idea of his that he ended up opening his own business. So he bought a little stand with three stools and hung up a sign that said, "Hamburgers, five cents." And anytime he'd get a customer, he would usually try and upsell them. You know, he'd be like, "Hey, buy them by the sack."
I got plenty. Usually after they had a taste of just one burger, they definitely did buy them by the whole sack or pack or whatever. Jay opened this burger stand at the perfect time because there was a Kansas oil boom and the whole state was modernizing, industrializing, growing, and people are hungry.
Thousands of families, they had flocked to the city of Wichita for work. And by 1920, the Wichita had a population of 72,000 people. Now this was out of control, okay? It was huge. That's a lot of people. So a lot of different workers who were employed at local factories and farms, they were always looking for cheap, you know, delicious,
Quick meal, mostly quick, to get on their lunch breaks. And that's exactly what Jay's hamburger stand gave them. I mean, this was iconic, groundbreaking. Jay's hamburger stand got so popular, it expanded to four stands. He was even crowned the king of the hamburger by local newspapers. And Jay was even approached by a big businessman to turn his little hamburger stand into a huge restaurant chain.
the American dream. He was living it. But Jay's dream had to wait because there was one huge problem. Americans at this time, they were actually afraid to eat. You know that one good tank top that you wear like all year round? I mean, it fits you just right. So you wear it all the time.
time, but maybe now it's getting a little old. Shifting my wardrobe from summer to fall is always a challenge. Luckily, Quince offers timeless and high quality items that I love so I can make sure my wardrobe stays fresh and I don't blow my budget. They've got cashmere sweaters from $50, pants for every occasion,
washable silk tops. And my favorite part, all Quince items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices
and premium fabrics and finishes. I recently got this 100% European linen short sleeve shirt. Ooh, I love linen. And you know, it was so comfortable, so cute. I can finally retire my old ratty tank top.
RIP. Make switching seasons a breeze with Quince's high quality closet essentials. Go to quince.com slash dark history for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash dark history to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash dark history.
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep, while you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.
It's easy and you can save money by doing it from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner and more.
So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24-7, 365 days a year, so you're protected no matter what. Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customer survey who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.
- Meat, especially red meat, back in the early 1900s wasn't seen as something you'd want to eat or even like should be eating. People thought of it like, ooh, gas station sushi. Yeah, when was the last time you ate some of that? In America. You don't eat that.
There is a small chance you'll be okay if you eat it, but like, you're really rolling the dice if you do. But let go and let God, honey. Then in 1905, a journalist named Upton Sinclair shook
the meat industry. Upton spent seven weeks at a local meat packing plant in Chicago and he was like, have you seen the show Undercover Boss? He was doing that. He was undercover bossing it and pretending to just be another worker. I love this, you know? So he goes in low key, doesn't tell anyone. And then he ends up turning his experiences into a novel
that confirmed a lot of people's beliefs and fear at that time, that the meat they were eating is disgusting. There were stories about exploited workers dying from the chemical exposure and the shitty conditions of the meat plant. And he also wrote a shocking story revealing the truth as to what was really going on. There were untrained immigrant workers being forced to do dangerous work in unventilated rooms. I mean, some were covered in blood from the meat that they were butchering and
Others were just standing in dirty water for Lord knows how long or even why in the first place. And all around the workers were just pieces of rotten meat. Yeah, it wasn't great. And then guess what? Well, most of the time that diseased, rotten and contaminated meat that was all around them would be rounded up, just kind of put it
in a bag and then they would sell it to the people. No big deal. There was no health code. There was no FDA overseeing it. America was still a free spirit at this time.
Nah. So Upton, the guy who uncovered all of this, he was a socialist, so people really went out of their way to discredit him, but it didn't really matter to the American people because once they read this or they read his novel, they were not going to trust meat. I mean, it did some damage, as it should.
actually. Some people felt they were taking a gamble with Jay's hamburger stand because they were so damn good but so against what they have heard about me, you know? And Jay even described seeing little kids purchasing bags of his burgers and then like racing back to their rich mom's cars as they sped off because they were like embarrassed or ashamed to buy from him.
It's kind of funny, but like he even had meat delivered to his hamburger stands twice a week in front of customers to make everything seem very fresh and legit. Like, you know?
Great. But it didn't really matter. It was still a dinky little stand at the end of the day. So in March 1921, he and his business partner created a clean, beautiful burger restaurant people felt like they could trust. And he named it White Castle Burger. Yeah. You've heard of that?
And this name was chosen on purpose because to them, the word white would represent purity and the word castle would represent strength. But now we just think of like when you're smashed, you're just like, "Whatever." You know?
So we kind of went in the opposite direction. Sorry about that, you guys. Anyways, but they wanted customers to feel a sense of safety and even luxury when they entered the building. The building looked like a clean white porcelain castle. And then they have like simple menu of burgers, coffee, Coca-Cola, pie. Because what else do you need? Exactly. Fries before guys, honchon. Ah!
Tell them. So the burgers were prepared quickly on spotless grills. And this was so the customers would be able to see like how they were cooking, right? The whole process. And know that nothing shady was going on.
You know, the cooks were told to be extremely positive while interacting with the customers to make them feel at ease. Don't worry, sir, you're not going to die here today. You know, sometimes when you see these people, you got you got to feel bad for them a little bit. You know, you know, when you pull up to the drive through and you can tell someone's watching the worker as they're like, my pleasure.
and they're twitching. And like, "Are you okay, girl? Are you okay? Blink twice if you need help." But can I get some extra barbecue sauce though? Just one more. I know it's 25 cents, but like, give me a fucking break. White Castle burgers were just big enough to fit in the palm of your hand. So they would poke holes in the meat to make it cook faster. And everything, even the buns,
were steamed on a bed of onions to give it that signature flavor. I mean, it was the perfect setup. It was consistent, it was comfortable, and everyone started to trust White Castle Burgers. Customers knew exactly what they'd get when they walked into those doors, and it was a hit.
Jay was even able to open a second White Castle location just a year after the first one because of how popular it was. I mean, pretty soon everyone across the East Coast wanted a taste of these damn burgers. So White Castle had to open up a new chain every few months just to keep up with the people's demands. And it wasn't just the product. People wanted to work at White Castle. I know, everyone, calm down. Someone wants to work at a fast food chain.
I know, I know. This really, this is a true story. So, because listen to this wild thing this man did. Jay made sure to pay his workers a good salary.
Holy shit, with health insurance and even retirement. Now, hot diggity dog, I don't know about you, but that's groundbreaking. And this is why everyone wanted to work at White Castle. What an idea, huh? Anyways, fast food historian David Hogan even described White Castle as a safe haven for all. In the 1920s, when many Black Americans couldn't safely enter any restaurants, let alone eat in one, they were said to be welcome at White Castle.
And by the end of the 1920s, White Castle restaurants were everywhere, especially New York. I mean, it was a craze. People could not believe this food was so good and also so cheap. This was also kind of a reflection of the changing culture at the time. I mean, the population was growing, technology was advancing, and people just wanted things faster and faster. I mean, no one wanted to sit down at a formal restaurant and order food.
and like wait and then talk with whoever you're with. No, they didn't want to do any of that. They wanted to walk in, order their food and just throw away their containers once they were done. No dishes, no cooking, not a lot of money, cheap, delicious food.
Fast? We're in America, baby. Buckle in. But here's the thing. Everyone was having conversations about cleanliness and affordability and also the convenience when it came to fast food hamburgers, but no one was talking about how good or bad it was for you. Like actually for just your diet.
You know what I'm saying? Nutritionists, they started taking shots at the hamburger industry. One writer said, quote, the hamburger habit is just as safe as walking in a garden while the arsenic spray is being applied. And about as safe as getting your meat out of a garbage can standing in the hot sun. Yum. Some people were like, okay, I hear that. How do I still enjoy my burger though? You know, like how do you still enjoy your burger after that?
to White Castle, they decide they're going to prove all of the haters wrong. They decide to conduct their own study. This is a little, just a little cute study. They hire a medical student at the University of Minnesota and only allowed him to eat hamburgers and drink water for 13 weeks straight. That's it, nothing else. And it kind of sounds like that documentary,
supersize me. You know, the guy who eats McDonald's food for like 30 days straight. It's like that. It's very similar, right? Except the student reportedly ate 20 to 24 hamburgers a day. That's a lot when you think about it. That's kind of a lot. What were they doing? I mean, hamburgers back then, I mean, these were the size of sliders, but still 20 to 24?
After 13 weeks, the student seemed okay. So White Castle is like, see, look, he's not dead. The student, on the other hand, I guess he was like scarred for life, maybe. He said, I guess reportedly said that he was never willingly going to eat hamburgers again. And that's like, I don't blame him.
This is a side note, but that same student, he died. It's not funny, but he died. He died at the age of 54 from heart problems. It's just like, you know, they left that part out of the study. They didn't follow up.
Anyway, so rest in peace. So as the hamburger industry was growing, you know that one good tank top that you wear like all year round? I mean, it fits you just right. So you wear it all the time, but maybe now it's getting a little old. Shifting my wardrobe from summer to fall is always a challenge. Luckily, Quince offers timeless and high quality items that I
love so I can make sure my wardrobe stays fresh and I don't blow my budget. They've got cashmere sweaters from $50, pants for every occasion, washable silk tops, and my favorite part, all Quince items are priced $50 to
80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I recently got this 100% European linen short sleeve shirt. Ooh!
I love linen and you know, it was so comfortable, so cute. I can finally retire my old ratty tank top.
R.I.P. Make switching seasons a breeze with Quince's high quality closet essentials. Go to quince.com slash dark history for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash dark history to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash dark history.
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep, while you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.
It's easy and you can save money by doing it from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner and more.
So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24-7, 365 days a year, so you're protected no matter what. Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customer survey who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. Yeah.
Yeah. Now let's get back to our story. So from the 30s to the 60s, whoo,
I mean, the American lifestyle was evolving, right? There was an influx of immigrants coming into the United States and people were moving from farms into cities. There was mass media and television and the car industry was booming. And everything about America became centered around speed and also convenience. So naturally, food became a part of that.
I mean suddenly the typical American meal went from beef stroganoff and like jello molds to hamburgers and fries. It was no longer working class food, it was food for everyone. So this is during the time no food delivery service, I know, wah wah wah. And there weren't like fast food restaurants on every block, like there feels like it is now, right? So if you wanted something quick, convenient, you most likely had to go to the city to an automat.
And the problem was for millions of women across America, letting your family eat fast food was a sign of failure. Yeah, it's kind of dramatic, but it's like these housewives were expected to make three grand meals a day for a family. So the fast food industry takes notice of this and they know that stay-at-home moms are going to be their biggest hurdle for the company. So this becomes focus number one.
win over the housewives.
So fast food corporations had to figure out, hey, how do we get these women who have been conditioned for so many years to take off their aprons and come to us? I mean, it's a hard thing to do. Society during this time was telling women that some of her self-worth is tied into making food for her family. I mean, so how is she supposed to let that go? It's not that easy. There was a White Castle ad from the 1930s that showed a man handing his grateful wife a bag of
burgers that said, give mother a night off by taking home a bag of White Castle burgers. Thanks, Johnny. Like you're supposed to be flattered.
There was even a Dairy Queen ad that said, "Make dad glad with a delicious treat. A Big Daddy sundae for 60 cents or a Big Daddy malt for 65 cents." It was like Big Daddy, 60 cents? I'm listening, go on. Anyways, the ads were very successful.
And by the 40s, the auto mats are no longer the go-to fast food. People were into fast food restaurants where you could just walk in, order your food, and then get the fuck out of there. But during this time, housewives still embarrassed. Okay, they don't want to be seen picking up fast food. It would make them look lazy. So they were like, you know, driving and then sending their kids inside to go get the food and like do it low key. Don't look at anyone. Don't talk to anyone.
So the companies are like, oh my God, we get it. Moms, you're embarrassed. Okay. How about we bring the food to you? And then this is when the drive-in restaurant scene started to pop off. Just all because we're just embarrassed. Oh my God. We're just shy. They cater to us. Look, we're so lucky. Housewives were just pulling in their cars to the front of the restaurant. And then either someone would like run in, get the food or the food is brought out to them.
And eventually there were drive-thrus and people could pull up to a speaker on the side of the restaurant, you know, place their order without ever being seen and then get their food and speed off like we do today, right? I do this all the time. I'll be driving through a drive-thru. I'm like, don't look at me. I'm wearing a big pajama shirt, someone's boxers, a flip-flop, just one. I couldn't find the other. And then I go drive in like I'm a normal human being. This is when I love the drive-thru, you know? For those of us who don't wanna be in public,
And I love them for it. Anyways, at this point, fast food restaurants were so successful, they were starting to multiply into franchises. So a franchise means a person is allowed to purchase the right of a restaurant concept and use things like their name, their trademark branding, and overall business model.
And like, they really can't even change that much because it's not technically their business to start with. For example, if your uncle purchases a local Wendy's franchise, he has to make sure the restaurant uses all of the same food vendors so it tastes the same. He has to decorate it the same. It just has to look like Wendy's. It's essentially like you're renting. You fucking get it, right? You got it.
And this is so the franchise won't look like janky knockoff, you know, and they'll make profit. By the 50s, owning a franchise was the American dream. The best part was, unlike so many big money-making jobs in America, you didn't have to have the right connections to get into the franchise business. So White Castle is a good example. I mean, Jay was just a cook at a local diner.
Pretty soon, the word on the street was that selling a product wasn't enough, but you could rake in the dough if you managed to find a way to franchise your business. In fact, your product didn't have to be industry-changing like White Castle's sliders. It just had to be marketed right. A great example of that is the success of the world's biggest franchise. Are you picturing golden arches right now? Because you should. I'm talking about McDonald's.
McDonald's. They sure did brand themselves, didn't they?
McDonald's is really a part of American history, okay? And I feel like everyone and anyone has covered it, talked about it, right? But what I found the most interesting about the story of McDonald's is how they're considered revolutionary. A lot of people believe that McDonald's changed fast food forever. But when you think about it, they didn't really invent anything new. I mean, they were just really, really good at knowing what people wanted.
McDonald's took off in 1955 thanks to a milkshake equipment salesman named Ray
Ray sold milkshake equipment to Richard and Maurice McDonald of San Bernardino, California. And something about their business just really impressed him. Like they had a hamburger stand with a simple little menu, but it was in a very popular area. So Ray came in and helped turn this one little burger stand into the McDonald's that we really know today. He took it from like one to about 200 different McDonald's.
And it wasn't long until quickly, 'cause literally, McDonald's came in, surpassed White Castle and became America's go-to burger chain restaurant. But by 1961, Ray, yeah, I guess Ray had like screwed over the McDonald brothers by creating a franchising agreement that basically gave Ray total control. It was so rude. It was honestly very rude of him.
And then he left the McDonald's brothers without any of the profits or the name. This whole thing that they started, this Ray, even though we were like, yay, Ray, this guy, he came in and just took it all from them. That's a different story, huh? Honestly, I was like, we really should have saw this coming. Ray was a milkshake equipment salesman. Have you ever tried to get a milkshake at McDonald's or ice cream at McDonald's? The machine never works. They suck.
So that's all. The thing that seemed to stand out to customers about McDonald's wasn't its fantastic flavor of fresh ingredients. It was an unspoken promise of what you get when you walk through their doors. No, it's not the creepy clown or the sticky countertops. You'll never get the best burger. You'll always get the same consistent flavor.
burger every single time. And that was their key. They literally became famous by promising a basic ass burger. And honestly, you kind of got to respect them for that because they knew what they were cooking up, selling and putting out there. And it was just basic. And they...
They kicked ass, right? Because your expectation isn't really that high. Anyways, from then on, and honestly, until now, McDonald's was always the fast food restaurant to be. And whenever they saw an opportunity for a new customer, they created a new product for them. Okay, for example, many Americans in the 60s were Catholic.
And they wouldn't eat meat or they shouldn't eat meat on Fridays, especially like beef, pork, chicken, and turkey. So McDonald's was like, oh, don't worry, you guys. Don't worry. Praise God. And they invented the Filet-O-Fish. Honestly, that's pretty iconic.
McDonald's just kept inventing iconic product after iconic product. Like the Quarter Pounder, the McDouble, the Big and Tasty, the McNuggets, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then other fast food companies start popping up and they want to copy them. Like Burger King, you know, they were founded in 1957 and their original restaurant name was Insta Burger King. Insta Burger King.
Yeah, they were way ahead of their time. Yeah, I could, yeah. But their whole concept was similar to McDonald's, except they offered flame broiled burgers that were a quarter pound, which was much bigger to McDonald's. Wow.
Like 1.6 ounce burger. Not that we're weighing or anything. And their biggest strength was giving power to customers. I mean, Burger King, their slogan was, have it your way. It was like, oh, what? Yeah, pickles only. And then they would let customers choose their own toppings, which was really unusual at the time. I mean, back then, you just got what you got. And if you didn't like it, then you can get over it and go somewhere else. Burger King also had their signature burger, the Whopper.
And it was a bestseller. McDonald's decided to blow out the competition and premiere what has been called the Chevy of hamburgers. Or in other words, the Big Mac. Chevy at the time was like the biggest, best car on the market. So this was like a major compliment, you know? Car comparisons. From the 1960s on, there was an explosion of fast food restaurants popping up all across America. I'm talking KFC, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Pizza Hut. The list goes on.
And this period of time is known as the golden age of fast food. Each chain, I mean, brought something different to the table. Wendy's, they used the drive-thru windows and it brought in a ton of customers. So then everyone copied them.
Domino's introduced 30 minutes or less pizza delivery. I know, which is still one of the most famous deals in pizza history. If the drivers didn't get your pizza to you in like 30 minutes, it was free. They had to stop doing that in 1993. I guess there were lots of car accidents.
Yeah, trying to get that pizza to you. Okay. I mean, still to this day, there are some pizza places that do it. I just thought that was kind of silly for a second. Taco Bell, they brought Mexican-ish food to the masses. Even though it isn't legit Mexican food, it's still something different in the fast food world. In the 1980s, the economy was doing great.
Baby boomers were popping out babies and lots of 80s moms were going to work in their iconic 80s suits. And they didn't have time to cook three course roast beef dinners anymore, nor did they even want to. So they started outsourcing their cooking to fast food restaurants.
so much so that according to QSR magazine, in the 1980s, McDonald's alone opened up a new restaurant every 16 hours for a decade all across America. That's over 5,000 McDonald's. This all affected
set up the beginning of what is known as fast food culture. Honestly, it was kind of a fun time, a little fun moment in history, you know, when all the fast food places were popping up because it just felt like this magical time in the world of fast food, especially if you were a kid in the 90s. Everything just felt so new and exciting, you know? But it wasn't all sunshine, cheesy gordita crunches.
I mean, even though all these thousands of fast food franchises were super convenient and affordable, they were- You know that one good tank top that you wear like all year round? I mean, it fits you just right. So you wear it all the time, but maybe now it's getting a little old.
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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep, while you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.
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Love you, bitch.
First of all, fast food did major damage to America's diverse culinary scene. I mean, in days before the fast food boom, America was a melting pot full of tons of different types of cuisines. I mean, it still is, of course. But before there was a McDonald's on every corner,
There was more like family owned restaurants and local markets that would be selling dishes from all over the world. But when fast food became king, it created a huge fan base around meals like cheeseburgers, milkshakes, fries, chicken fingers, nuggets.
I mean, those were the things like people were really wanting, you know? And as the big fast food chains expanded, they put thousands of mom and pop restaurants out of business. According to Wendy A. Wallafson, a history professor at Rutgers University, this created something called "Humajizunashijin."
This created a demand for everyone wanting the same thing. Everyone was becoming the same. Everyone wanted the same burger, the same fries, the same shake, you know? And it's true. I mean, we love it. And then 1994 alone, fast food restaurants in the United States sold over 5 billion hamburgers.
And this made it America's favorite food. I know. So then it got me thinking, like, what was going on in 1994? Why did it pop off that hard?
hard and i don't know but it got me thinking so all this put extra demand on the beef industry which is why meat companies like tyson food started to pop off and then two years later almost 10 of the american population ate at a mcdonald's every single day i mean that's just that one chain and that's people who are there every day and i'm guessing the number has only gone up since then
Professor Wallison says, "This not only affected American culture, erasing once vibrant ethnic and regional traditions, but it was also beginning to influence the entire world." AKA, fast food is taking over the damn world.
Thank you. By 1996, there were more than 7,000 McDonald's restaurants in other countries. There were almost 1,500 in Japan, 430 in France, 63 in China, and that's just to name a couple, you know? There's probably some in Ohio.
Okay, sorry. I mean, this thing was a movement and everywhere it went, it was taking out competitors, just ruining local businesses and getting people all over the world hooked on their three main ingredients. Extremely processed meat, high fructose corn syrup, and fried food.
I think it's safe to say that fast food isn't known for being healthy. You kind of like, again, know what you're getting yourself into when you pull into that drive-thru lane. For starters, it's usually high in calories, unhealthy fats, there's sodium, added sugar. There's no vegetables in sight except for that. You do get a tomato, sometimes lettuce to be fair. Okay. Pickle.
Okay, plus, fast food wasn't just an occasional guilty pleasure. It was literally changing the palate of the American people. I mean, instead of trying out different foods, many Americans were just eating what they ate in fast food restaurants, which was beef and slash or chicken. David Hogan, a historian, really hit this point home when he noticed that Americans, quote, consumed fast food.
50% more chicken and beef in 1976 than they had in 1960, mainly because the fast food chains usually served only those two meats. And again, big corporations like Tyson start to profit because of a lack of diversity in food. I mean, instead of people eating game hens or turkeys or pork or fish, you know, variety of meats, something that's cooked at home, instead it was chicken or beef
or I don't know, chicken, maybe even beef. And then the next chicken, beef, you know, fish, don't know her, only on Fridays. On top of that, according to nutritionists, the quality of the meat, the saturated fat, the sugar, and all the chemicals dumped into these foods to make them available quickly were not good for you. And if almost 10% of a country is eating a processed burger on the daily,
What does that mean for America's health, huh? And what about the children? The future health? Well, you know who was thinking about the children? Those fast food corporations, of course. To guarantee lifelong returning customers, they started targeting children. Ah, yes. Genius. Because getting into someone's memory is a perfect marketing tool.
Creating a sense of nostalgia and happiness is key. So in the 90s, fast food went all out for the kids. McDonald's tried to make parents' lives easier by building literal playgrounds inside of their restaurants. Yeah, you know, because you don't even want to think about the germs in those ball pits.
You'd go in, there'd be something sticky at the bottom and you're like, "I don't need to know. I'm just gonna go play over here now." I mean, when was the last time anyone cleaned those balls?
Yeah, there was always some kid stuck in the slide picking his nose. Ya nasty. But for a working parent, well, it's a babysitter and a meal. All for the low cost of a number three combo? Plus Burger King, they had paper crowns. Hello, those were fun. Carl's Jr. had star-shaped nuggets that made fun throwing tools. Because they...
Do they still have those? They should. Everywhere you looked, fast food brands were whipping out fun, lovable mascots like the Wendy's girl, which she was actually real. She was actually the owner's daughter. They made her look cute. Look, there were all kinds of like kid-friendly figures who made their brand accessible for everyone. And it took a while for McDonald's to get there with, you know, Ronald McDonald. Their original design for him was...
a fucking nightmare. We talked about him in our Clowns episode. This dude, Ronald McDonald, his look was questionable. It said, hey, I hang out in dark alleyways and I might do things to you. You know? But they rebranded. They eventually got...
got him where he needed to be. I mean, they got Ronald to a place where he became so recognizable that a study done in 1973 found that 96% of American children recognize him. Do you know what kind of power that is? Yeah, it's like he was the biggest celebrity if he were a kid during this time. The only person that American kids recognized more than Ronald was Santa Claus. Both strange older men, huh?
That's not a vowel. And look, guess who's back knocking at our door? Oh my God, it's Ronald and his posse. Do you remember the Hamburglar? Hamburgerlar? Burglar? And Mayor McCheese Grimace? They are shoving him back down our throats for no damn reason. I mean, they made those damn milkshakes that was making everyone lose their mind. And you saw him on TikTok. And who's on TikTok? Kids.
Damn it, they got us again. Grimace, who are you? I don't even know you. You know, he's like, what is he, a blob? And plus you can't forget the most seductive threat of all, the Happy Meal. These sneaky little boxes of joy became the gateway to a lifelong affair, a love affair with fast food. They lured us in with toys.
The toys, oh my God. I went in for those toys. The food, whatever. The toys, I'm talking, remember the limited edition Beanie Babies? The Happy Meal was colorful, beautiful, made promises of happiness. And before we knew it, we were all addicted to the nostalgic taste of childhood memories. I mean, not to mention the sugar, salt, and fat memories.
So this all leads up to a big pushback against fast food in the 2000s. There were books like Fast Food's Food Nation that started to come out. And suddenly everyone was obsessed with eat this, not that. And it was kind of fun. And fast food franchises started adding healthy options like a salad to the menu. Order the salad. It's not our fault if you're eating something unhealthy. We gave you options.
The funny thing is, healthy options and nutrition facts didn't really change the fast food industry. Well, except for Kentucky Fried Chicken. They decided that fried, the word fried, it was a little too scary, you know? And it was scaring away all those people who were worried about fried food. So they rebranded to KFC, but we know what the F stands for.
It turns out people like having a little guilty pleasure. I mean, they don't want an organic chicken nugget that's going to taste like cardboard. They want the real fake, chemically processed thing. It's convenient, it's cheap, it's tasty. And these companies, they understand that that is their target audience. I mean, after all, fast food companies were designed to serve middle class, blue collar working people.
not 1% elites who are, you know, only eating kale salads and like bone broth. Well, the problem is that fast food doesn't really operate with moderation on the mind, but fast food is literally designed to be addictive. According to Dr. David Kessler, who used to work with the American Food and Drug Administration, the food available at these big franchises isn't designed to satisfy your appetite, but instead,
And to keep you hungry. So for millions of years, food was pretty hard to get for humans. Remember? Had to be there. You had to hunt. You had to gather. Sugar, fat, and salt, I mean, these were all very rare. But then when the fast food started to dominate the landscape of American food, they realized they could manipulate your appetite using salt, fat, and sugar to keep you in a feeding loop.
like a hamster in a wheel. Fast food franchises started specially designing food products that would combine all our favorite flavors in a perfect ratio so that every single bite was perfection. Fat and sugar tricks your brain into stimulating your appetite and salt leaves you hungry for more. Bada bing, bada boom, you're in.
right? And by doing this, fast food keeps their customer reaching for more and more food than they technically need. I mean, it makes sense. Can you just have one french fry?
I didn't think so. Can you have just one Pringle? No, you can't. And the next time you're hungry, you're obviously coming back to the scene of the crime to get that fixed all over again. It's like you're a moth to a flame. You're going to be sucked right back into those sweet golden arches, embraced with a warm hug and a salty fry. It's magical.
I think the best example is chicken nuggets. The factory that makes chicken nuggets, they first like deep fry them and that gives the chicken a coating of fat. And then it's frozen because then it gets delivered to the fast food restaurant. And when it's time to serve the chicken nuggets, they get fried again. So it's just like another layer of fat.
The nugget finally gets to the customer and is served with a variety of dipping sauces. All of them have freaking a ton of sugar in them, but they're so good. Ketchup. Oh, so much sugar. Oh, give it to me. Pour it on me. Rain on me. Yes. Barbecue sauce. Don't get me started. Oh, and then you pair it with an ice cold Coca-Cola and you even have the option to supersize it. I mean, obviously it's to share for yourself.
Right? Yeah. Suddenly, next thing you know, you aren't even eating because you're hungry anymore. You're eating because it's fun and it feels good and it's delicious. But all of this leads to overeating. The fries are flying, you're in a frenzy, and when you finally come to your senses, you're surrounded by empty ketchup packets in a parking lot like some kind of potato junkie. But listen, I'm here to tell you, like, it's not your fault. I mean, it kind of is.
But like, but it's not like we all have choices in life, right? Blah, blah, blah. But like these fast food companies, they're not messing around when it comes to keeping you a loyal customer. Many of our favorite franchises use literal food scientists to create these delicious recipes. Now, these are some like Ivy League food scientists I'm talking about. And they're hired specifically to figure out how to get that perfect golden ratio in every bite.
I mean, no wonder we're all hooked, right? Your taste buds cannot fight a war against a Harvard nugget scientist. And one of the biggest impacts fast food has on the American people is the obesity epidemic. And it was actually predicted back in the 90s in that beautiful golden era of fast food.
by Dr. Catherine Fleagle, a senior research scientist at the U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention. And after looking at a mountain of data about health and nutrition in U.S. citizens, Dr. You know that one good tank top that you wear like all year round? I mean, it fits you just right. So you wear all the...
time, but maybe now it's getting a little old. Shifting my wardrobe from summer to fall is always a challenge. Luckily, Quince offers timeless and high quality items that I love so I can make sure my wardrobe stays fresh and I don't blow my budget. They've got cashmere sweaters from $50, pants for every occasion, washable silk tops, and my favorite part, all Quince items are priced $50 to
80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I recently got this 100% European linen short sleeve shirt. Ooh!
I love linen and you know, it was so comfortable, so cute. I can finally retire my old ratty tank top.
R.I.P. Make switching seasons a breeze with Quince's high quality closet essentials. Go to quince.com slash dark history for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash dark history to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash dark history.
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep, while you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you could be doing right now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.
It's easy and you can save money by doing it from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner and more.
So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24-7, 365 days a year, so you're protected no matter what. Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive.
PocketMoney.com slash Dark History.
Before the fast food boom, American adults would gain some weight between the age of 20 and 40, and then lose that weight in their 60s and 70s. But suddenly there was a spike in those numbers and 20 million Americans, or like 8% of the population, had suddenly become overweight. Well, it turns out that this 8% was eating fast food every day. Now I'm no scientist, and you're probably not a scientist,
but Dr. Flegel is, and she put two and two together. The spike was concerning for nutritionists because it puts more people at risk for heart disease, type two diabetes, different types of cancer. I mean, it's not good. And that bump in obesity isn't exactly surprising when you find out that the average fast food meal is at least, at least 800 calories.
And that's on like the low end. But it's like, I'm like, whatever. I don't know that. Is that sick? Oh, remember when they passed that law? There was a law in 2009. It was called the menu labeling law. And suddenly food franchises in California, they had to list the nutritional information and calorie count next to menu items. It was wild. I mean, I would pull up to the drive-thru and see that my hamburger that I like to get had 2000 calories in it. And I was like, oh,
"Oh, but I'm still gonna get it, okay? Tomorrow I'm gonna be better." And since the food is designed to trick the brain's hunger center and keep us overeating, it's almost like the problem isn't even in our hands anymore.
Of course, we can't eat in moderation when the system is designed to make us eat as much as possible. But what is a solution? Make the food less delicious? Even the colors used by most fast food companies, you know, the red, yellow, are intentional. The color red actually increases your pulse and heart rate, which raises your blood pressure. This spikes your metabolism, which is why the color red psychologically triggers feelings of hunger.
That's why I'm wearing red right now. My lips, don't you want to eat me? And the color yellow, she triggers feelings of happiness and friendliness. So it's like the perfect combo. And this is actually known as the ketchup and mustard theory. So if you're around yellow and red, you're going to probably feel more hungry. You're probably going to eat more and you might be a little happy.
You wanna eat me yet? Now this is crazy. Yellow also happens to be the color most visible in daylight, which is why McDonald's, their M, can be seen from a very far distance. So next time you wanna get your man's attention, dip yourself in yellow paint and then just stand there, okay?
That's how you get them. Even if weight gain wasn't an issue, there's another problem, which is that as people rely more and more on fast food, they're losing access to basic nutrients like vitamin C, vitamin A, fiber, all the things our body needs that we used to get from eating whole foods and vegetables. Those whole foods, which you find in health food stores, they're usually located in like a middle class or upper class area. And in lower income neighborhoods, you might notice if you look around,
The only options are fast food and super processed foods at bodegas or like mini marts. It goes to show you that food can like really be weaponized and used to keep whole groups of people just unhealthy. And then when you start thinking about fast food as a drug that's maybe tricking your mind into veering into that drive-through lane over and over again, a lot of things kind of start to add up.
The fast food industry itself is like that dealer that's taking advantage of your addiction or even your financial situation, which is sad because fast food started out with a promise to do right by middle class and lower income families by giving them simple, easy, quick meals for the right price. But if the food they're serving is ultimately addictive and not good for us, then it seems like fast food is maybe exploiting middle and lower class communities?
And doing more harm than good, you would think. To beat all the bad publicity they get, fast food companies have some of the best PR teams in the whole world. I mean, the brains behind these popular fast food joints dumped tons of money into supporting charities because they knew it would help keep their images squeaky clean. And even if their recipes were trash,
I mean, we gotta give them credit where credit is due. They're doing good work. They give back a lot. Like for example, McDonald's created Ronald McDonald Houses, which gave homes to parents whose kids were sick and getting treatment in nearby hospitals. Wendy's and Burger King both had given support to programs for needy children. Even KFC let their customers know that they were doing their part because the good old Colonel Stubborn
Sanders supported the March of Dimes charity, which is the national foundation for infantile paralysis that was founded by FDR. I mean, they do good work and they keep their image sparkling clean. It's really a win-win. In the late 80s and 90s, when they were once again starting to catch some heat for their bad nutrition, companies like McDonald's started doing things like hiring older workers and giving younger workers their first jobs, which is like, oh,
nice. They're giving back to the community. Yay. Now, at the end of the day, fast food is still doing what it promised to do. Get food to people quickly for a low cost. I mean, it became the ultimate solution for busy lives. With just a few bucks, we could grab a meal on the go and just save some precious time. But in the race against our
clock we sacrificed our health our bodies were designed to run on empty calories and processed ingredients and even some of the new healthy additions to fast food menus for example impossible patties and the new vegan milkshake from fatburger it's not healthier they just make it look that way but realistically it's just a combination of processed ingredients and chemicals you know
Well, where does all of this information leave us? Because I think it's clear that fast food restaurants are here to stay, right? I mean, the United States has the most fast food restaurants out of any other country in the entire world. It's part of the American cultural fabric when you think about it.
Yeah, I mean, part of our core memories. Did you guys know that Jeff Bezos used to work at McDonald's? I know. So did Rachel McAdams, Jay Leno, Shania Twain, and my younger sister. Hey girl, I remember. She would come home smelling
Stinky. I don't know what they were using in those kitchens. I still ate there. Even President Barack Obama worked at Baskin Robbins. It's an honest American job. And the people who started these empires are like our corporate fast food founding fathers. Put them on a mountain somewhere, huh? I mean, they proved the American dream was real. But is it still? I don't know. And is fast food more strategic than we realize?
I mean, the fact that there are food deserts out there and people who literally rely on fast food to get most of their meals and just through the damn week is just a reality in our country. And who can blame us if Ronald is getting into our heads at a young age and getting us hooked on his engineered to be delicious burgers? We got hooked. We got snatched. We got trapped.
And honestly, it was like, oh my God, fast food is like a toxic boyfriend. It is, like you just can't break up with them. You're like, I can do better than you. I don't need you. I'm never coming back. And then you wake up, you go a few days and you're like, oh my God, I'm just like really miss him right now.
He's just like, was really nice to me. And he was there when I needed him. But just like your toxic boyfriend, sometimes it's available all of the time and they're on every fricking corner because that's, it's like your memory of them. You're like, oh my God, we made out on that corner. I mean, McDonald's is even texting me now. I was pressured into downloading their app and now they text me when they're having special deals. And it'll be late at night too. And they know I'm up. 2:00 AM, free fry promo.
Really? You're gonna tempt me like that? You are gonna send me some spank bank text worthy shit?
What do we do? What kind of shenanigans have we gotten into, huh? Do we boycott them? Honestly, no, that's not going to happen. Let's be honest. That's not going to happen. And look, they've already got us in their clutches, you know, in their greedy clown hands. So how do we unlearn everything they've taught us? How do we detox off of it? I mean, those withdrawals off of sugar and all that bullshit. Oh, I'm not ready. I don't
I don't know what it comes down to. And that's where I'm just gonna ask you guys, because look, this is a community where I wanna hear what you guys think. We know that's a problem. We know it's not good for us. It's available on every corner. You know a fast food spot you can go to right now, right? So, okay, if all of it's bad, none of it's good, why do we still allow it?
Let me know. Thank you. You know, look, I don't have all the answers. I just like to find out information and learn about it and then just regurgitate it back. And at the end of the day, I mean, no matter how hard I try, you will probably catch me at a Jack in the Box. I'm sorry. They have a really good salad. I know that's not what you go for, but I do enjoy their salad. And I love McDonald's. You can find me at McDonald's, 2 a.m. easy. I love a fry and a milkshake. Anyways...
Thank you for learning with me today. Wasn't that fun? Now treat yourself or don't. Remember, don't be afraid to ask questions to get the whole story because we deserve that, don't we? And I'd love to hear your guys' reactions to today's story. So make sure to use the hashtag dark history over on social media so I can follow along.
Join me over on my YouTube where you can watch these episodes on Thursday after the podcast airs. And while you're there, you can also catch Murder, Mystery, and Makeup. I hope you have a good rest of your day. You make good choices. And I'll be talking to you next week. Goodbye. Goodbye.
Dark History is an Audioboom original. This podcast is executive produced by Bailey Sarian High, Junia McNeely from 3Arts, Kevin Grush, and Matt Edlow from Maiden Network. A big thank you to our writers, Joey Scavuzzo, Katie Burris, Allison Filobos, and me, Bailey Sarian.
Production lead, Brian Jaggers. Research provided by Xander Elmore and the Dark History Researcher team. Special thank you to our expert, Simran Grewal. And I'm your host, Bailey Sarian. Social comments. Kai said, quote, I promise you I love Bailey. Thanks. But Joan keeps me cackling.
- Joan, I get it. Honestly though, Joan, you've been coming through with the looks. I think I need to step up my game and yeah. I don't blame you. Joan has been looking great. Tap to have sex with me said, "Your kindness is a balm to all who encounter it." Tap to have sex with me? You're so sweet. And yeah, I will tap to have sex with you.
Misa Froqueen commented on our Red Summer episode from season two saying, Thank you for this. Sadly, if you keep digging, you will find a whole lot more of similar stories. I'm not sure if you did this yet, but research the Devil's Punchbowl in Mississippi. It's just sad and sickening. Ooh, Misa, I am intrigued. The Devil's Punchbowl? It's a very intense name. I will be looking this up and we'll circle back. Bye!
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I'm Stanzi Potenza. And I'm Brad Padre. Launching June 13th is our new podcast, Late to the Party. In this post-ironic chat show, we'll show you a window into our world of crazy post-ironic thoughts. An unlikely friendship founded on a shared love for riffs, ranting, and getting absolutely wrecked.
Consider this an invitation to our inside jokes. You're late to the party, but no one cool ever shows up on time. Follow Late to the Party on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to this kind of stuff.
