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Novel.
Hey, listener. In this episode, we'll be talking about acts of violence and murder, as well as the loss of a child. After the second break, there's one particular scene of extremely intense emotional distress, which you may find hard to listen to. But at the same time, we get to see Dr. Mindy Shapiro reconnect with her New York roots.
If you feel impacted by any of the themes while listening, I encourage you to check out our charity partner, DNA Doe Project. They work with law enforcement to identify Jane and John Does. They use genetic genealogy in the hopes of reuniting the bodies of unidentified people with their families. You can find them at dnadoproject.org.
And you guessed it, you're probably going to hear a few swears too. So sue me, I've got a dirty mouth. Before we get started, there's something Dr. Mindy Shapiro, my good friend and our lead investigator, would like to be formally struck from the record. ♪
At one point in season one, when she was deep into her obsession with Gail's case, I described her in a way that she was, well, not real happy with. A dog with a bone. Do not! No!
I'm still angry about the dog with the bone, and I'm not going to get over it. So why would you take offense to a dog with a bone? It just gives me the image of this little white terrier biting the ankle of some pants leg of some person who's just trying to kick me off. That's why.
So Mindy, let me say this, hand on heart, I apologize for referring to you this way, but I think you would agree though that you're a little obsessive. And don't get me wrong, that's what we love about you. It's that very quality that makes you such a great amateur detective. Instead, I'll just describe you as you truly are, my unsquashable, tenacious, and relentless friend, Mindy fucking Shapiro.
Dr. Mindy fucking Shapiro. Dr. Detective Mindy fucking Shapiro. I know there's no mystery, medical or otherwise, that she can't solve. I like a puzzle. I do love a puzzle. I make puzzles where they don't exist. But this 35-year mystery of our lost sister's identity is her biggest and most important puzzle yet.
If she's going to bust his case wide open, like I know she can, this New York broad is going to need to kick down doors and find the answers no one else could. Ruff, ruff. Okay, okay, I'm sorry. That was the last dog joke, I promise. I'm Carol Fisher, and from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts, you're listening to The Girlfriends, Our Lost Sister. Episode two, Mindy Goes Undercover. Ah!
Yes, I've got you.
Hi. Hi. I'd like to speak with a librarian in order to help me with some research. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you.
When I first met Mindy in Las Vegas 30-something years ago, she'd only just moved from the East Coast. And you could tell. I mean, she was fast talking, fast walking, and she got shit done. And with every minute we spend in New York investigating the case of our lost sister, I can see that old East Coast attitude coming back.
I mean, I literally witnessed her jumping a turnstile on the subway. For crying out loud, this woman is 67 years of age. But who am I to question our chief investigator? First up on Mindy's tour of NYC, her and producer Anna head to the New York Public Library. It's a very ostentatious library.
They didn't need to make it this far. You know, they renovated it a while ago. Libraries are often described as one of the last bastions of democracy. They don't care if you have money or what your background is. You can go there and access the same information as anyone else who comes looking for it. So it feels like a good place to start our investigation, to see what's already out there.
newspaper articles about the torso washing up on Staten Island in 1989, any killers who were in the news at the time, missing person notices, that kind of thing. Because something we discovered in season one, when we first attempted to identify this Jane Doe, is that accessing official information about missing or unidentified people is, to put it mildly, no easy task.
Hopefully, you won't have experienced the pain of a loved one vanishing without a trace. But for those who have, who spend their lives searching through a labyrinth of police, medical examiners, media, and other systems, it's often near impossible to find any answers.
You'd probably think that our team would have better luck with our resources. After all, we've got me, a relentlessly nosy person. Mindy, the brain box doctor turned sleuth. Elaine Katz, the accomplished family lawyer. And my producer turned adopted daughter, Anna, who just so happens to be an investigative journalist. Plus, there's multiple people working full time behind the scenes who you haven't even met.
So if we're struggling to get answers, what kind of chance do everyday people have when a loved one goes missing? Maybe this could explain why our Jane Doe has gone unidentified for 35 years. Mindy wastes no time getting the librarian's attention. Okay, are you ready for the query of the day? All right, I'm not sure you better sit down.
I am interested in fundamentally two things. One is
A torso washed upon the shores of Staten Island on May 21st, 1989. And I'd like all information that I can find about that torso. The next thing is I would like any and all information on the psychopathology of killers that dismember their victims.
The librarians on the other side of the desk shoot a raised eyebrow in Mindy's direction. That's right. You know, I look like clearly someone who is investigating. Do I look like all murders in the building? Do I have that vague resemblance to Selena? No. Thanks. Thanks a million.
But unfortunately, not only does Mindy struggle to get a compliment from these librarians, they also can't find any relevant information. In fact, she and Anna aren't making much progress in Manhattan at all. Maybe we're finding it hard because what we really want, what we need, is more information from the time when the torso was discovered on Staten Island. ♪
We should be able to get that kind of stuff from the original police reports, something we're not going to find in the library. So we decide, fuck it. Why don't we just turn up at Staten Island Police Department and ask for the reports ourselves? Right under the sign, 121 Precinct. The 121st Precinct in Staten Island is a big concrete building with a long line of steps leading up to the entrance. It's intimidating.
We stagger up the stairs and we go through the tall glass doors and immediately we look out of place. Typical Mindy charges ahead while I hide behind producer Anna, who's concealed her microphone in a pair of fluffy gloves. It's all very covert.
When we get to the front desk, we're greeted by this really sweet officer. I'm interested in seeing if I can get some old records from 1989. What kind of records are you inquiring about? Police report of...
At first, understandably, he doesn't know what to make of this strange, multi-generational group of women digging into a cold case. He seems pretty suspicious of us. Luckily, we've got Mindy's New York charm to win him over. And could you just do me one huge favor? Because I grew up in New York. Could you say perpetrator for me? Perpetrator. I know you have a question.
But we're here on business, so we asked the officer to check the records for anything connected to the torso. Let me punch some dates here. Let's see how far we go. Yes. Let's do it. Thank you. Thank you. But it doesn't go very far. When he types our case number into his computer, it draws a blank. The case is too old, and the files have likely not been digitized.
But the sweet officer, he does give us something. Let me search for a cold case health number. Okay, that would be great. A phone number that we can call for information on cold cases. You know, hopefully they'll be able to help you navigate through this journey. Do you think that records from 1980...
So it's looking like we won't quite get what we came for. But we're not going to be leaving empty-handed either. We've got a brand new cold case number to call and a new friend at Staten Island PD. Where's your accent from? I'm from England. Okay. London. I love England.
I never visited, but I always wanted to as a teenager. But then I grew up. Now I'm in my 40s. I have kids. I'm a grandfather. Wow, you're a young one. Congratulations. Thank you. Muscle tough. Muscle tough.
It seems we've garnered all the information we can, and Mindy's also got her eye on an iconic Staten Island pizza joint for lunch. So with stomachs rumbling, we exchange goodbyes with our new friend and make our way out of the police station. We got a number that we haven't had before. So tomorrow, we're going to call that up. What do you mean? We're calling in the car. All right. All right.
We jump in a taxi and have barely got our seatbelts on before Mindy starts dialing. We're hoping to find out if our Jane Doe is connected to a registered cold case and if there's any information that can help us continue this story beyond 1998, which is when Elaine Katz's files end. All right, we're calling.
Of course not. That would be too easy. We keep trying, though. But when we eventually get through, it turns out that sweet officer Poi-Petrator, he gave us the wrong number. I mean, can we catch a goddamn break?
We still don't give up. Mindy is soldiering on, unperturbed. Through some digging, she manages to find the correct number. But, dear listener, don't hold your breath. Hi, my name is Mindy Shapiro, and I am calling about a cold case from 19...
If you're exasperated just listening to this, imagine how we feel. It's like we're constantly hitting a wall, being sent around in circles from one agency to another. Maybe we're out of our depth here, even with Mindy on the case. Maybe we need some advice from someone who's actually solved a cold case. And not just any cold case, but one that's very close to our hearts. The murder of Gail Katz.
Oh, hey, we're invited to the Johnson Summer Pool Party this Saturday. I said we'd bring our famous potato salad. Oh, Saturday? But that's when the Blinds guys come in to give us a quote. Those appointments take forever. Oh, yeah, I meant to tell you. I already found everything we need at Blinds.com. They're totally online, so we don't have to wait around all day just to get a quote. I talked to a Blinds.com designer, and they're sending us free samples. Oh.
Oh, Blinds.com? I've heard of them. Yeah, they've been around for over 25 years. But not everyone knows they can also handle the measuring and installation for a fraction of what the other guys charge. Plus, they have a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Well, Blinds.com sounds like a no-brainer. Guess I'll cancel. Already done. That gives you time to make the potato salad. Yes, dear.
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Hi. Hi.
How are you? I'm good, thank you. How are you doing? Good to see you. So good to see you. Anna just arrived at the office of Dan Bibb. He's the DA prosecutor who put my ex, Bob Bierenbaum, away for 20 to life. He's also the guy who helped prove once and for all that our Jane Doe's torso did not belong to Gail Katz. He's eager to know the latest on our investigation. So what's been going on? So we're trying to identify this torso.
which is maybe a fool's errand. I don't think it is. I remember we notified the precinct or whoever was in charge that this is now an open case again because it's not Gail Katz. What happened to the investigation after that? I have no idea. You know, in '98, did missing persons really want to deal with a 1989 torso that washed up? I don't know. I mean, could it have fallen through the cracks? Yes.
Dan is talking about the medical examiner's office. You already know that Mindy has put in a freedom of information request to them. So has Gail's sister, Elaine. And they're not the only ones. All the way back in the first series of The Girlfriends, Madeline Parr, our assistant producer and research queen, reached out asking for any documents relating to the torso.
5th of December 2022. Hi there, I'm a journalist from the UK and I'm wondering if you might be able to help me find out some information about a body that was discovered in 1989. We get a response saying they're going to look into it for us, which is great news. And then a few weeks go by, we haven't heard anything, so we decide to check in. 4th of January 2023. Hi
Hope you've had a lovely holidays and a happy new year. I'm just wondering if you've got anywhere with tracking down those records. Months go by, still nothing. Eventually, we just get plain pissed off. 9th of January, 2024. Dear, happy new year again.
I'm writing to let you know that it has now been over a year since my initial request was sent to you on the 5th of December 2022, and we are yet to receive any progress at all on these records. Nothing's worked. We've always been met with a wall of silence. And to be honest, we're starting to take it pretty personally. I mean, why wouldn't they just tell you?
You could appeal to their FOIL officer and then you could sue. But why wouldn't they just tell you that instead of stringing it along for a year? We don't want to get to the point of suing the medical examiner's office. We just want them to respond to us. We want to know what information they have on the torso after 1998, which is a year she was exhumed from Gail Katz's grave. We want to know where she went and, crucially, if she was ever identified.
Our mission isn't about pointing the finger or assigning blame. What we want to do is fill in the gaps of our lost sister's journey to find out her name, to give her back her own story, not just make her a footnote in Gail Katz's case. And above all, we hope that in uncovering this mystery, we can bring closure to Elaine and possibly to our Jane Doe's family, wherever they may be. But maybe it's time for a more direct approach.
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At the age of 16, I was busy swooning over boys. In fact, that was the first year I fell in love, the first in a long run of terrible boyfriends. But Mindy? Well, she was far too ambitious to be distracted by something as silly as boys. At 16, she was busy lining herself up to get into a good medical college, which meant internships. And where, you might ask, did she intern in the summer of 1973?
the Manhattan Medical Examiner's Office. You just can't make this shit up. I would get on the bus from my parents' apartment to the medical examiner's office, and I'd watch them do autopsies. And then one week, I worked in the lab with the stomach contacts. One week, I worked in the bones. And it was like, "Weight and heart." - - "Desicting livers."
And now, about 50 years later, Mindy's back at her old office. She wants to find out where our Jane Doe went after she was exhumed from Gail Katz's grave. Hi, it's Dr. Shapiro, and I'd like to speak with the deputy medical examiner. Hi, good afternoon. Thank you.
To get us in the door, and because we're getting kind of desperate here, we've decided to act like Mindy is simply stopping by to see an old colleague. A zillion years ago, and the entry is exactly the same. Good things never change. Mindy's asking to meet with the deputy medical examiner, not the chief. We decided that'd be too suspicious.
And it seems to be working. The receptionist gets on the phone and says that the deputy is in a meeting, but will be free in just 30 minutes. We'll wait. We'll keep you company. We've been waiting for over a year already, so what's another 30 minutes? It means I can take off this coat because it's so warm in here.
But it's nerve-wracking. For the first time, we're coming face-to-face with the people who've been avoiding us for so long. And it's not just that. So much has happened under this roof. It was in this very same building where Elaine was first told that the torso was not her sister Gail after all. It's a lot for Mindy to take in. Here. Yeah. I'm just... Processing. Processing and anticipating.
Then the strange silence is punctured by a woman a little ways down the hall screaming. She has just identified the body of her son. After a tense minute, the whales draw closer. The woman with someone we assume to be her husband bursts into the lobby.
We're not going to play any tape of her out of respect for such an intimate moment, but all I can say is it's the rawest expression of grief that you can possibly imagine. This experience is one that no mother, including this one, should ever have to go through. And yet here she is in the lobby of an office building on what should be a normal Wednesday afternoon screaming into the void.
That's not my son. My son had a home. My son had a family. He told me he was safe. Anna, Mindy, and the security guards are all sitting in silence, trying not to intrude on the woman's grief or make her feel self-conscious. But they also feel this pull to just jump up and give her a hug. What do you do when faced with something so unimaginably awful? How do you even begin to help?
Before they can try a different tact, the woman and her husband leave, her cries spilling out into the faceless Manhattan street. And that's why we're doing this. It's horrible. It's horrible. You know, it's hard enough for me watching you with, like, your face wet. Yeah.
This is all normal for you, but it's not normal. No, it... Yes, it is. I mean, it's a part of life. It is very, very normal. And they are experiences that you hope you never have. Or if you have them, you only want them once. And then you don't talk about them.
And what makes them taboo is that we don't. They're just not discussed. Yeah. As much as that was a tough thing to bear witness to, it just brings it all home. Our Jane Doe could have a mother out there who hasn't even been gifted the opportunity, as brutal as it is, to know the truth about what happened to her daughter.
bereft of the opportunity to wail and scream in public to show the depths of her pain to the world and make them look. Five minutes pass, and the deputy medical examiner walks out of some heavy double doors. Anna and Mindy had rehearsed what they were going to say to her, but the tones changed. Now they're more desperate for answers than ever, so they're pleading with her.
I'm a physician. I retired and I'm here on actually an act of mercy for a friend of mine who has had a remote tragedy in 1989. And I'm trying to get some closure on the case for her. Basically, in 1989,
Mindy runs through the whole complicated story once again, and at first it seemed like we might finally be getting some answers. Do you have, like, case number or anything? Yes, yes. The ME case number is 89563. Where is it? I think it's on...
Mindy and Anna sit back down to wait again.
But when the deputy pushes through the doors after her 3 p.m. meeting, her expressions changed. She's still smiling, but now it's guarded. ♪
The director of anthropology is in the meeting with me, so I just briefly mentioned to him he's aware of it, and they were planning on reaching out to you. Oh, okay. They're just finding out answers to your questions. It's complicated. Yeah. Yeah, someone is aware of it, and anthropologists have been working on it, but someone will be in touch with you. Oh, thank you. That feels good to know. Thank you. Thanks.
Anna and Mindy are getting the distinct impression that they've overstayed their welcome, so they hightail it out of the medical examiner's office. Well, we waited. We got some very interesting experience out of this. Oh, my God. Do you need a drink? Come on. I'll buy you a drink and we can go downtown. Spoiler alert, dear listener. We did not hear back about the files. So what next?
Well, if you're looking to track down a body, the next best place to go is probably a cemetery. And if you're looking to track down an unidentified body in New York, then you best head to the city's largest public burial ground, Heart Island. Coming up next time on The Girlfriends, Our Lost Sister. Oh my God, wait. Oh my God. Wait, wait. Look at what it says next to it. Look at the date.
What? Oh, my God. I can't believe this. The Girlfriends, Our Lost Sister is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts. For more from Novel, visit novel.audio. The show is hosted by me, Carol Fisher, and our chief investigator is Mindy Shapiro. To find me on social media, search Carol A. Fisher. That's Carol with an E.
The season is written and produced by Anna Sinfield and Lee Meyer. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr. The editor is Joe Wheeler. Max O'Brien is our executive producer. Our fact checker is Dania Suleiman. Production management from Cherie Houston and Charlotte Wolfe.
Sound design, mixing, and scoring by Nicholas Alexander. Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson. Music supervision by Anna Sinfield and Nicholas Alexander. Original music composed and performed by Louisa Gerstein and produced by Louisa Gerstein and Nicholas Alexander. The series artwork was designed by Christina Leemkuhl. Story development by Anna Sinfield. Willard Foxton is creative director of development.
Our executive producers at iHeart Podcast are Katrina Norvell and Nikki Etor. Special thanks to Allie Cantor, Carrie Lieberman, and Will Pearson at iHeart Podcast, as well as Carly Frankel and the whole team at WME. And a special shout out to Vince Hayward, who's my life partner in true crime, for taking on the role of girlfriend's confidant and lead tech support. Novel.
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