cover of episode 496. Beyond Dawkins | Jonathan Pageau

496. Beyond Dawkins | Jonathan Pageau

2024/11/7
logo of podcast The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

Key Insights

Why is Jonathan Pageau reinterpreting traditional fairy tales in his new book series?

Pageau aims to reclaim stories from being ideological weapons by presenting them in a beautiful and celebratory way, maintaining their original essence while subtly adding deeper insights for adult readers.

How does Jonathan Pageau distinguish his approach to storytelling from propagandization?

Pageau stays close to the original fairy tales, celebrating them without cynicism or irony, and ties the interpretive enterprise into historical and biological traditions, ensuring the stories contain patterns of human attention and memory beyond ideology.

What role do stories play in human cognition and perception according to Jordan Peterson?

Stories describe the structures through which we see the world, influencing our perception and categorization. They explain the fundamental role of narratives in human cognition and the unfolding of the world, emphasizing the importance of understanding these structures.

How do large language models provide evidence for the existence of a symbolic realm?

Large language models calculate statistical probabilities between words, phrases, and sentences, mapping out the statistical relationship between them. This mapping mirrors the symbolic relationships in human cognition, suggesting a mathematical model of the symbolic world.

What is the significance of the resurrection in the Christian story according to Jonathan Pageau?

The resurrection represents the pattern of reality where radical acceptance of suffering leads to abundant life. It affirms that the deepest acceptance of the dark side of life and death can transform suffering into something meaningful and life-giving.

Why does Jordan Peterson believe that the story of the crucifixion and resurrection is more plausible than not?

Peterson finds it more preposterous to believe the disciples lied about the resurrection, as it would mean our civilization is based on a lie. The story's structure handles the problem of potential lies by showing the disciples' willingness to die for their belief, making it a more plausible historical event.

How does the story of Abraham and Isaac relate to modern concepts of sacrifice and purpose?

The story illustrates that true purpose requires offering up what one holds dear to something transcendent. It shows that sacrifice, even of one's own desires and goals, is necessary for maintaining higher order structures and achieving a more profound existence.

What is the psychological effect of embedding oneself in a hierarchy of meaning according to Jordan Peterson?

Embedding oneself in a hierarchy of meaning reduces anxiety by providing a singular, higher aim. It also enhances the value of micro actions, giving them a psychomotor kick similar to the effects of drugs, making each action more fulfilling and purposeful.

How does the story of Jack and the Beanstalk reflect the themes of sacrifice and hierarchy of goods?

Jack's journey up the beanstalk symbolizes climbing a hierarchy of goods, from immediate needs like food to transcendent values like harmony and patterns. It illustrates that the best way to ensure future provision is through sharing and higher forms of meta food, reflecting the human pattern of adaptation.

Chapters

Jonathan Pageau discusses his approach to retelling traditional fairy tales, emphasizing the importance of celebrating and honoring the stories rather than turning them into ideological weapons.
  • Pageau aims to present fairy tales in a beautiful and celebratory way.
  • He believes fairy tales contain patterns of human attention beyond ideology.
  • Pageau's approach involves subtle connections to ancient myths and the Bible.

Shownotes Transcript

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with podcaster, author, and icon carver Jonathan Pageau. They discuss Jonathan’s new book release, “Jack and the Fallen Giants,” the depth of fairy tales when they are not propagandized, Jordan’s recent conversation with Richard Dawkins, the hierarchies of being and their relation to goals, and how the spirit of Adam is the best combatant against the spirit of Cain.

 

Jonathan Pageau is a French-Canadian liturgical artist and icon carver, known for his work featured in museums across the world. He carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images and teaches an online carving class. He also runs a YouTube channel dedicated to the exploration of symbolism across history and religion.

 

This episode was recorded on October 30th, 2024

 

 

| Links |

 

For Jonathan Pageau:

 

The Symbolic World (Website)

https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/

 

Jonathan Pageau on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@JonathanPageau  

 

Jonathan Pageau on X https://twitter.com/PageauJonathan?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor