461. The Story of Possum Trot | Joshua Weigel, Bishop and Donna Martin
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I'm here today talking to Bishop Martin, his wife, Donna Martin, my wife, Tammy Peterson, and Joshua Weigel, who's the director, producer, and writer with his wife, Rebecca, of the movie, The Sound of Hope, The Sound of Hope.

the story of Possum Trot. This is a story about a small community, Possum Trot, that decided to take matters into their own hands in a responsible way and 22 families in the community adopted 76 children pulling them out of the foster care system and they decided to take the children who no one wanted, that's older children in the foster care system, and the movie explores

That topic, that difficult topic, it's a hell of a thing to take it onto yourself to pull someone you don't know who's been hurt into your life to try to intercede in a positive manner. Joshua pointed out, for example, in the conversation that

There's about 400,000 children in the foster care system in the US. And if every church did what the church community in Possum Trot did, that there'd be no children at all in the foster care system. And God only knows what positive results might emerge

emerge socially in consequence of that. And so this is an investigation into the compelling story of the families of Possum Trot, as well as in this discussion, an analysis of the motives that the people in the community had for undertaking this venture and a discussion of the potential consequences on the psychological and social stage of adopting

responsibility to take care of the least among these, so to speak. So welcome to the conversation. All right, Joshua, let's start with you. Why don't you tell us, well, two things. Tell us the story of writing, first writing and then producing and directing The Sound of Hope. And also maybe fill us in

on the details of your association with Angel Studios. - Good, well, I'm glad to be here. Thank you guys so much. - Yeah, thanks for coming, all of you. - Thank you. - So, well, the story, just real quick, is about these two. Bishop Martin now, it was Reverend Martin at the time, First Lady Donna Martin, spearheaded this amazing thing in this little corner of East Texas. They inspired 22 families to begin to adopt kids out of the foster system with them.

This was in the sort of late 90s and ended up at the end of the day the community adopted 77 kids between them and they asked for the kids that nobody wanted so it was a really specific

you know, goal in that. So we, my wife, Rebecca and I wrote this and produced it. And we heard about the story and she's working in the child welfare space in Los Angeles, doing a lot of work with churches, trying to get them more involved in caring for these kids. And so she came across you at a, I think she was looking for a speaker for Bishop Martin to join her. And

They connected and long story short, we just hit it off and felt like something about this story just gripped us. We felt like it needed to be made. So we sort of shifted away from some other things that were happening and

and began developing that. So what you mentioned that there was something about the story that struck you and it struck you hard enough to divert you from the path you were already on. So what do you think it was? What did you pick up? Do you think you and your wife that had that effect on you? I mean, for me, it was hearing these kids' stories. I mean, I started reading about the actual kids and what they'd gone through.

And backing up just a little bit, you know, we had adopted two of our kids. And so we had personal experience in this whole thing and cared a lot about it. And we also started to connect what was happening to these kids, the breakdown of the family, that crisis and how it sort of impacts our communities. And all of these things were coming together. But I remember reading about these kids, Terry especially, what she lived through. And I was...

I was like, we've got to tell people about this. How old were your kids when you adopted them? One was about six, almost six, and then almost two. Okay, so you had some personal experience with this that was direct, and the stories themselves...

touched you, but you also felt that... I mean, it's a difficult thing to understand how creative inspiration comes about, right? It is something like a bunch of things coming together. But you also said you thought that

it struck to the heart in a personal way of one of the major problems that's facing our society, which is obviously the breakdown of the family. And that's a catastrophe. And it's a catastrophe that particularly affects the poor because the rich still are married and have intact families. And so you can feel all of that coming together. Sir, you started talking about this to your congregation a long time ago. How long ago now?

It was back in, probably in the 90s, late 90s.

Freddie Bank probably some time ago. Okay, so tell us about the town that you're working in so that everybody has a sense of the place. But also, maybe you could explain why this particular issue touched you and why you felt it was necessary to bring it to the... That could go to Donna, too. Absolutely, absolutely. You're both welcome to chime in. Why you think that particular problem became the focus of your work

your attention in your work in your church. - She do the first part and I do the second part. You can tell her why, then I know tell her why what's happening. - Okay. - Well, back in '97, from the '97, the loss of my mother. My mother passed away in February.

And a couple of months after her death, I began to, if you will, be depressed. You know, I call it a silent depression because when I was around other people, I was happy and jolly and, you know, doing the work of the Lord and putting on the first lady face and just meeting everybody's needs.

but as a pastor's wife. And so when I would be alone by myself at the house, my husband off to work, he was selling insurance at that time. And then through the service of my mother, we were in a really old church. And this is the church that I grew up in as a child. And the floor, that church probably would seat

maybe 175 people. So it was probably 500 folks packed in that church that day. And that many cars was lining up miles down the street that people was trying to get in. But at the service, I heard a

At that time, I heard a pop. I didn't know what it was, but it was the I thought it was a pew. And actually, it was the wall came from the, you know, the floor came from the wall. And so he was in the process after that of, you know, trying to find people to help donate and build us a church. We only had five hundred dollars left.

in the building fund and he's selling insurance. So he's busy. He's selling insurance. He's got to make his route. He's got to try to find some good heavenly peoples who will help us restructure a building. He was just overwhelmed. And I was there at the house after getting my kids off to school.

Couple of months of just crying out to the Lord silently. There was nights he would come in after work I would share with him and I would get so angry when he would tell me Donna I understand how you feel. It would make me so angry. It's like how can you understand how I feel? You know, he lost his mother when he was young, but I would get angry and just after telling the Lord a couple of months and

"Lord, no child should lose a mother." I am 36 years old, but I'm saying to the Lord, "No child should lose a mother." So this particular day, I got the kids off to school. He's off to work. I'm doing my dishes. And that pain that I've had in my heart, in my chest, it was like a heart and around it was just burning fire, aching, burning fire.

And so I said, as I was beginning to do my dishes, I said, OK, God, today is today. Either you heal me or let me die.

Literally, I thought he was going to come home and find me right there at the floor. So you were experiencing physical pain as well associated with grief? It was all physical. It was grief. It was in every emotion of being of my body, mind, spirit, soul. Again, now when I'm with the church and with God's peoples, I am just, I'm on point. I'm on target. And that's why I said it's silent. You know, it's a silent pain.

And so... Why do you think, I'm sure this is related in some manner, why do you think that you were angry with your husband for his presumption that he understood? Were you feeling... I mean, it sounds like most of the time you were feeling pain and isolation, so it would have been perhaps hard for him even to see that. But do you have any sense of why...

Were you angry about the fact of your mother's death, the fact that she was taken away? Did you feel that that was not just-- - I was not angry about that. I was angry about the pain and the hurt. It was like no one could connect to that. You know, I never felt the connection from anyone. - I see, so you're feeling isolated. - Yes, yes, if you will, yes. - Right, right. How do you think people should share their grief

Definitely about, you know, talking about it, expressing it, you know, feeling the comfort. But as I look back over it, it's just, I think that it was a preparation. There was a preparation for me personally to receive the assignment that God had in store. I feel that truly it really wasn't about me. It was about what He was preparing me for.

us, the world, the church to do. And I do believe that through pain and suffering come victory.

When you suffer through something and you receive that godly assignment, then you can associate that with what you went through to get to where you are. Right. That gives you some seriousness. That gave the connection. Yeah. That made the dots no matter what. So when I answered to the Lord and he said back to me, I heard you.

You give back. Think about those children that's out there. And did this happen when you were doing the dishes? This happened. This happened after I said to him, either heal me or let me die. Right.

Then a calmness came over me. I don't even remember going out, but I was just moved. It was just the Holy Spirit just moved me from one place to the next on my back porch. So I wonder if that was a consequence of the way you formulated that. You know, you're in a situation where your pain is serious enough so that you're willing to have death come as a relief.

Maybe that's the time when people are more likely to be most serious about doing a new thing. I mean, if you're willing to give up your life and die, maybe you're at that point willing to give up your life to do something new. No? So, yeah, well, it could be that you have to be taken down to the... So when Jonah, for example, when Jonah is called upon to speak...

He doesn't really agree to speak until after he's thrown off the boat, mostly drowned, and then in hell for three days. That's when he decides he's going to do what he's supposed to do. Right, so it gives him grim seriousness of purpose. Okay, so you're doing the dishes, and what do you realize? As I was saying, I was just moved to the back porch. When I went and stood on that back porch, calmly,

the Holy Spirit plainly spoke to me, said, "I've heard you, but think about those children who are out there that do not and did not have what you have had in a mother." And grieved, right? So you were informed then that you were fortunate enough at least to have a mother to grieve. Come on now, come on. Fortunate enough to have something

That's called L-O-V-E. Yeah, right. With 21 children, raised with 17. Watch this woman.

Nurture every one of us individually and at the same time. Never one time that Merthyr Leigh Grisby Cartwright lost her cools. We were poorer than Lazarus, if you will. We didn't have anything but each other. Love, family, genuine love, unconditional love.

And she kept it together. Yeah. So by, you know, we stepping out and the Holy Spirit says, give back, give back. Think about those that didn't have what you had. So my mother passed away two weeks ago, three weeks ago. And it was somewhat sudden. We were more worried about my father, actually, than my mother was.

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I spent the day with memories, you know, and I haven't got one negative memory of my mother. So, you know, and I've interviewed a lot of people who have done well in their lives and asked them how their interests developed and why they had the confidence in themselves that they had, you know, and they're almost invariably from two parent families. And

And the developmental psychologists know this too. Like, the love of your mother gives you... It's like an unshakable confidence in your own physical reality, right? And that's sort of instantiated maybe even in infancy. It's really embodied and really fundamental. Your father can be a figure of great encouragement, which is very nice alignment with that acceptance and love. And so...

So you were in, now you said that when you were on the porch that the Holy Spirit spoke to you. And so how exactly did you experience that? And why did you attribute that to the divine? Like what was, was it an actual voice? Was it a thought? Was it a feeling? Like how did that, how did that idea come to you? It was just a calm sense of a voice. I could not have made this up.

I would not ever had a funkette, if you will. I will without a doubt. And every time I think on it and speak on it,

I know it greater. I know it greater. And I know through all the disappointment, all the pain that the children suffered from, all the hurt, the anxiety, the abuse, the

that it wasn't nobody but God who allowed this, who gave this commandment from heaven. And how do you think you know that? Because we didn't give up. I see. No matter how hard it got. You stuck with it. We stuck with it. Yeah. You know, you could tell that story about you and Julian, maybe. Yeah, sure. Okay.

So when I was, 2019, I was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Told I had 10 months to live. And Jordan and I were in the doctor's office and I thought, well, you know, my mom and her family all died fairly young. And I guess I'm one of those. And so I just kind of said, okay. And we went home and my son lived nearby with his wife and they came outside and I told my son. I said, so I told him everything.

that I was going to die in 10 months, and he looked at me. He looked at me, and I saw a boy losing his mother. And I thought, oh my goodness. So that love that I had for my son, I saw that reflected back to me, which I had never felt before. And I felt...

the weight of the world lift off my shoulders and I felt the Holy Spirit fill my body. And I said to my son, you know what, those doctors, they have a medical opinion, but only God knows when I'm going to die. And we're just going to go day by day with gratitude. That's been the story. Tammy's told me two things about that. First, you know, the first, and I've thought about it a lot, when she was the mother of young children, one of the things that was quite remarkable about watching her was that

she responded to the kids if they were in distress pretty much immediately. So when my daughter was born, Michaela, we lived in a little apartment in Montreal in a poor neighborhood. And I built a bunk bed and I built a crib to go underneath it. And so that's where Michaela slept. And at night, if Michaela...

so much as peep, Tammy was down the ladder and taking care of her. So she never really woke up and cried, but she had that immediate response. She also told me, and this I thought was quite interesting, we took Michaela again up to this little cottage in northern Saskatchewan that we'd gone to every year for 20 years. And most of the people up there are old, you know, over 70.

And we took our little kids up there and... It was just Michaela. It was just Michaela at that point. She was jolly jump her age. Yeah. We'd have like 10 old people in the living room of this little cottage and they'd just be watching that baby like she was on fire, you know, and so... And I said to my husband, oh, this is great. I said...

all the attentions on that little baby and it has nothing to do with me. This is great, you know? It's easy for people to think that their life should be about them and their status. I mean, them very narrowly and personally in that sort of narcissistic way. But one of the things that you come to understand, and I suspect this is more true for mothers than for fathers, is that your life should be centered on the

Your life should definitely not be about your narrow needs. Not least because that doesn't work. It's a very unsatisfactory solution. First of all, I don't think that can ever be exhausted. You know, I watch narcissistic celebrities

who are constantly dissatisfied no matter what they attain. It's a void that can't be filled. And I think the reason it can't be filled is because the way you fill that void isn't by getting what you want, it's by giving you absolutely what you lost. That's right. Yeah, yeah. So it was it. And then, see, the reason I wanted Tammy to tell that story too, because there's a bit of a parallel there, because...

along with that experience, when she saw her devotion to Julian reflected, that showed her that she was of more worth than she thought about herself. But it was also a time when she decided, or very close to the time when she decided that, well, you decided that you were going to turn your life, at least to some degree, in a new direction as well. You said that you were going to, for example, that you'd speak publicly.

Well, I had prayed and asked if God would spare me that I promised that I would, you know, I would speak.

I was speaking. And you kept up that resolve. That's right. That's been definitely put into action. She actually found out she was good at it, too. Well, I liked it anyway. When he steps in, he gives you the ability to do what you could not do without him. So what have you found that you could do?

All things through Christ who gives me strength. Yeah, very good. So be specific. What have you been engaged in because of the decisions that you've made that wouldn't have come your way otherwise? Just obedient. Just, I mean, sharing the message. I mean, teaching the world or even myself.

what high important family is. And no matter what, you do not erode that. You know, you keep it together to whatever degree it takes. So how did you torture your husband into paying attention to what you had to say? He figured out that God speaks to women also. Uh-huh.

I like what you did there. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So, okay, so maybe you can pick it up from there. What happened after? Now, you were working as an insurance salesman and as a pastor. Right. And you were working in this little church that needed some work, to say the least. Oh, I needed a church. Yeah, okay. Okay. So pick up the story there. Tell us a bit of background about your work and then your religious work. How did you come to be a pastor?

Well, all before then, before I even met her, I used to sing with my brothers. I got nine brothers and one sister. And we organized a group called the Martin Brothers. And we were singing all over the country. And one particular Saturday night, we went to Possum Trot.

where her church is at. And we had to be there that Saturday night and that Sunday evening. That Sunday evening, I saw her walk through the door and I said, that's going to be mine right there. I laid claim on her. And then the Lord brought it together. I had no idea. If I would have known, the Lord would not allow me to know that because it would have been no, no, no. You know, so...

- You know, when I started in the ministry, I wasn't looking to do anything but just, in fact, I didn't want to preach. I didn't want to do that at all. That wasn't something I made choice of. He made choice of it. Then the Lord, I ended up passing a church that I got married in. And when that came to me, when she came to me about the adoption part, I mean, see, one of the things that you all need to understand that my biological son, he was born with severe brain damage and that constituted

were teaching us about patience. And I think that God had a program in mind, something in mind all the time. Because through my son, with his problem that he had, we learned how to be patient. Because you got to be very, very patient with him. You can't take him fast. You got to be real slow with him. And you got to do things over and over and over before he get it. But once he get it, he got it. So...

when she came to me with the program, I didn't want to do it because I was thinking about him and what I had to do with him and then all the rest of the responsibilities that I had. But then again, I began to feel that this is a movement of God. So I joined in. I joined in. I went to some of the pride classes. Couldn't go to all of them. In Texas, they got what they call pride classes. That's where CPS teach you how to deal with children with multiple problems. And when we got started in it,

And brought got the first two we got one boy who came in before we got our two his name was Nino her sister Got him and and after he came in then we got Tyler and Mercedes and when we got Tyler's and Mercedes in the some of the members started asking, you know, how did y'all do that? What are what y'all do? How did y'all do all of that? So what I've done is

They wanted to do it, but they didn't want to do it because we had to drive 120 miles round trip, you know, from our church to go to take the classes. And I went to the state and asked them about it. So they told me, said, well, if you can find eight families that was willing to adopt, we would teach the classes at the church. Oh, yeah. And then she said eight families, but I found 13 the first time.

13 families. From within your church? Within the church, you know, that wanted to sign up and go through the process of learning about adoption. And after we did that, I began to realize that adoption itself was not something that man came up with. It wasn't a man-made idea. It was a God idea in the beginning. Because the only way we were able to get back to God was through adoption. And if you read Ephesians 1, I think right now it's

fourth and fifth verse, it will explain that to you that it was God's good pleasure to bring us back to Him through His Son Jesus through adoption. So that was the only way we was able to get back to God. So adoption was something that, and then on top of that, adoption was something that started in the Bible years ago. Moses wasn't an adopted child because...

Moses was not, he wasn't Moses' daddy and no law, but he was raised in Pharaoh's home. And a lot of people don't agree with it, but I do, Jesus wasn't adopted child. Because if you look at it closely, Joseph was not his biological father. He was one that, he didn't plant the seed for Jesus. When the angel spoke to Joseph, he told him, said Joseph, he said, "Don't be afraid to take Mary as your lawful red wine. "That she's carrying is holy." So she was already pregnant when she got married.

So he was, she was not, but he told Joseph to raise him, teach him and learn him. That's why they related to Jesus as the carpenter's son. And if you read in there, in 1 Matthew, Mark, it explained all that to you. So once I began to let the church know the importance of adoption and why we should be doing this and why it's God's thing that we do this, they began to really get involved. We was not looking for no publicity. We was not looking for no publicity.

For none of this. I mean, all of this was something we just done because I always figured that people take care of their children. Because anything, and a lot of us can say right now, well, something happened to my mom. My grandmama raised me. My auntie raised me. So I always, it was an adoption, but it's not a formal adoption. It was an informal thing that when something happened to mama, adoption was gone because mama or your grandmama or your auntie or somebody came in. But once we learned and once we got it in there,

into existence. Now it's a more formal thing that you got to go through all of this and go through that and go through that to adopt a child. But for the most part, it was not something that man, this was God idea to get us back to him. And I feel like this, that we all been adopted. Every one of us who is a child of God has been adopted. So you said,

there's a couple of things that you said in there that really struck me as worth delving into further. So you said that you have, you already had a fairly heavy responsibility with your son. And so you were leery about

Taking on additional responsibility partly because you knew how difficult it would be partly because you were already occupied Okay, so why did you decide to take on the additional? Responsibility given given that and how did you come to that decision? It came to a some where you can't have it You know I wasn't it wasn't when when I felt like that this was something that God was doing and

Not knowing the outcome of it, but just doing what God said do and when we do things like that We may not see what's beyond the corner But if we obey God and do what he said he will reveal to us through process of time Okay, so let me ask you a question about that I mean people have ideas and notions all the time and some of them aren't very bright and

And so how do you personally, both of you for that matter, how do you decide when, you know, you're supposed to discern the spirits to see if they're of God, right? So, okay, so now you've had a calling that occurred to you while you were doing the dishes and on the back porch in the aftermath of the death of your wife. And now you're contemplating the death of your mother, sorry. And now you're contemplating this major thing

Thank you.

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Adoption of this major responsibility and you regarded that as a calling from God a divine calling. How do you distinguish? Good ideas in that regard personally from bad ideas because the Spirit of the Lord Would lead you and guide you through all things one thing I do know by God He does not give vision without provision if God put something before you he gonna give you direction

If you look at it, even Noah himself, when he called Noah to build that ark,

He gave no specific response on how to build it, the size, what he was going to do, two levels, and what he was going to build. He gave him specific instruction. And this is what God does today. He just don't say, look, I'm going to let you do this. When Moses got ready to lead the children, he told him what to do, how to do it. So the Spirit of the Lord is so active.

that it will lead you and guide you through all that. A lot of times we make the mistake because we try to do it our way. This is when we get off course. But long as you stay in that realm with the spirit of the Lord, he's going to take you where he wants you to go. How do you stay in that realm?

Because when God speaks, you obey his word. If God said go, you go. If God says stop, you stop. And if you notice why Moses then was even not then willing, there was a whole lot of disobedience at home. And because of that, God, there was some problems went on out there. But any time

that God is working and showing you and telling you what to do. He's going to direct your path. I think it's in Proverbs, it may be that fifth chapter I'm talking about. He said, trust in the Lord and do good. He said, and he shall direct your path. If we let the Lord direct our path, we would do a whole lot better and be successful at what we're doing. So I've been trying to think that through psychologically. And so...

Part of the reason that we think, obviously, or that we can see our way forward is so that we can get to where we're going. And so thought is an aid to movement forward. Now, thoughts come to you. And so then you might ask, well, how do you ensure that the best possible thoughts come to you? And it has to be, it's something like what Christ recommends to his listeners on the Sermon on the Mount. He basically says,

with regard to prayer, that you should aim at the highest good that you can conceive of, right? And then you should then attempt to treat other people as if they have the same value as you. So that's the frame, that's your aim. And then what comes to you is going to have as its source the provision of that aim, right? Then it'll be reliable. Now, your additional point was if you do that,

then the things that you need will come to you along the way. Now, your sister was the first one who adopted? Yes, sir. Okay, now how did she come to play that role? Because actually after the Holy Spirit spoke to me, I'm always one to say, God, I need confirmation in the form of man.

Because if you work through me, then I don't have to spend a year trying to explain it to somebody else that you said it. Because he said we should know, try the spirit by the spirit and you'll know that it is of the spirit. So when I spoke to my husband about it within his busy time of serving the Lord and his calling, I didn't get that sense of peace. Oh, yeah. Okay. So I called my sister. She's at work. She happened to be on break.

And I said, Diane, the Lord has said this to me. And I tell her what he said. Think about those children that's out there that did not have what you had in a mother. Give back, foster and adopt. I said that to her and she says, First Lady, if God said it, we can do it.

It just warmed my heart. She came over after work and I began to explain to her. And at first she goes, girl, you crazy. But she was saying like, you're crazy to attack this like this. You know, she's like, you sold out already.

And we just went from there. We just went from there because-- - So why do you think your sister was so responsive to what you said? Was it how you said it or-- - Because we had the same thing. We grew up in a very-- - Oh yes, I see, I see, I see. - Connection. - Right. - The same love, the same nurture. - Okay, now so she adopted the first child. Did she take these courses? Did she have-- - She was right along with us, right along with us 'cause when I call for her,

for the CPS, for the classes, right? And they said to me, "Mrs. Martin, you're the last person that can get in these classes." It's the first time we ever had a full class. It is shut down.

Then here I go again, because I done already talked to Diane and I go back to the Lord. I say, okay, God, I know this is you. So what I'm going to need you to do, because these folks are saying I can't bring anybody else in. And if this really you, I'm going to need you to open up this door.

So the lady says, I call her back and I says, I really need to bring my sister. And she says to me, well, Ms. Martin, as I already stated, that the classes are full and it's shut out. But bring her on and let us see. They may ask her to leave. But all down in my spirit, I already knew that.

that she would be there. We went to the class, nobody said nothing from that day to this one. It's gone. Now, had you decided at that point as well to adopt or were you and your sister just investigating it? No, sir. I knew. You knew. I knew. I say foster because you know that you can't just go into like the system, the foster system, adopting.

You have to have that six-month period of fostering, and then you're eligible for adoption. But I knew that I was not going to be a foster parent.

I knew that the children that were coming to our home was there to stay. How do I know that? I just know it by the Spirit. You can't explain the Spirit. You just know. It's just something on the inside of you that you know that calls you to live, move, and breathe. I just knew. And today, I know. So when Moses encounters the burning bush...

Right? The voice of God speaks to him because of his diligent investigation. Eventually, it's the voice of God that speaks to him. And it speaks to him in a very particular way, right? Because it demands something of him. It says that he has to stand up against tyranny and he has to be a leader of his people away from slavery. And he says...

Well, no one will listen to me because I'm slow of tongue. And God says, find your brother. That's very similar to what you did because your brother has talents you don't. But he also said, if you tell people that I sent you, they'll listen. And so I've thought a lot about that because, you know, there are people who talk to you and your attention wanders. You can barely pay attention to them, barely listen to them. Other things go.

crowd your imagination and call to you. But now and then you meet someone and you listen to them and you're convinced that at least that they are convinced of the truth of what they say and their voice is much more compelling. And so it seems that that's what's portrayed in

the description of Moses going to speak to the Pharaoh and the Israelites, right? He comes away from this encounter and the manner in which he communicates is convincing. And you see the same thing portrayed in the stories of Christ, right? Because continually when he's preaching,

The writers of the gospels note that he speaks in a manner that's different than the scribes and the Pharisees and the lawyers with direct authority, right? And that's that sort of compelling voice that overcomes obstacles. And it is what unites people in their resolve, which is what you said happened to you, but that can be transferred to the community. Okay, so now you're with your sister and you're with Childhood Protection Services and you're taking these courses and

And are you on board by this point? Are you still wondering what's going on? I think I got on board by middle ways, the classes. I think there were like 16 weeks and I had got on board right at about the middle because I didn't have the time, no way to do that. And I don't,

And when I was taking the class, I think I still missed a couple of them because of prior duties, you know. So were you going to the classes together at that time or was that like— Some of them. Some of them. Right. Okay, so— I would teach him. I would inform him of what I'd gone through, what we were taught in the class once I got home.

And little did he not know he was already on board because he knew that when I stick my hand on something, I'm not giving it. And it's not that many things, you know, that I do. But what I do, I do it. Yeah, well, that's a good thing to point out, though, too, you know, is that

You can maybe get what you need and want if you don't ask for too much all the time, right? Because then people know when you're serious and when you're not. That's a very useful thing to know in marriage. It's also a useful thing to know in your relationship with your children. It's like you don't have to say no that often.

But when you say it, you should mean it. Right. Same with yes. Yeah. Okay. So what's going through your mind while this plan is starting to take shape? Well, I didn't really focus on it at that point.

But then at some point in time, I felt that this was something that God was doing, not knowing the outcome, not knowing why. You know, so I got on board. And when I got on board, you know, I began to just, you know, to go with it and follow through it.

And children just continued to come. Because I had to go back after they finished one class, I had to go back with another group and present them to the state. Another group of your parishioners. That's right, another group. And that's how they came up with the 22 families. Okay, so you and your sister adopted. And so why did the...

- Why did parishioners start to become interested in this, do you think? - Because I started telling them what the Word of God said about adoption. That's how they got on board. We began to preach. - Yeah, but why'd they listen? - Because I'm the preacher and I'm the pastor. The Bible says this, faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. And how can they hear without the preacher? So they got to understand that when God gives the message to the preacher, it's not for him, it's for them.

- Right, and they believed that. - Whether they believe it or not, it's still for them because everybody you preach to, 'cause Jesus himself said that everybody that says Lord, Lord is not going in. - Yeah, right. - So whether they believe it or not, it's still his word, it's not gonna change. But one thing I love about God's word is that he said he stand watch over his word and whatever he send his word out to, it will accomplish

what he sent out to do. So his word was sent out for that little church down in those woods to start this movement. And it was accompanied because the spirit of the Lord was there as a pusher to make sure that we covered the ground that the Lord laid out to him. And to say it was a, it was a picnic. No, no, no, no, no. It was not no picnic. It was hard. It was tough. Uh,

You had to do a lot of things. They changed your whole life up, your whole demeanor of life. Now you've got one child already that you've got a problem with. Now you're finna invite other problems in. It's just not an ordinary thing. That's why everybody can't adopt. But everybody can be a part of adoption because you just can't do it. You've got to have a mind.

You've got to read a mind of patience. You have to understand and try to put yourself in a life or a child that never had anybody to say, I love you. Nobody to ever say, I hug, give me a hug. Never had a mother and a father because they're in the system. So what do they know? You've got babies in the system. So what do they know about a mother and father? They don't know until somebody teach them or show them what it's all about. So it's a big responsibility. That's why everybody can't do it.

And God has special peoples to carry this out. - So, you know, when I first came across the film and the idea as a clinician who's dealt with very difficult families, you know, one of my concerns was fools rush in where angels fear to tread, right? This is a very difficult thing to ask of people or of yourself to bring someone, a damaged child into your household.

especially as you pointed out, when people already have a fair number of problems to take care of their own. And so it's a relief, well, to know, for example, that, you know, you had a child who required additional care to begin with, so you already knew about this. So you were obviously approaching this in a manner that was very realistic. You know, because people can be very naive and foolish about their do-gooding, and then they cause a lot more trouble than good.

So, Joshua, maybe you could comment on this too. How did you handle the problems of the difficulties and how did you strive to make that realistic? Well, I think one thing to keep in mind is

This was much more than a movie to us. It was that first for me. I feel like it has to be a movie first if you're going to make a movie. I think a lot of mistakes are made when it's not that. That's the mistake of the propagandist. It's a sin, not just a mistake. And then the person who just wants to get a message across. So we knew that was important. It was important to us personally. But

One of the things about this community that I think is important, and you've been teasing this out, is how do you arrive at this decision? Why do you do this? We think about that because we want people to respond as we have. And I think on one hand, we talk ourselves out of what we ought to do all the time. And it's important to look at something and assess it and figure out, can I manage this?

We usually talk ourselves out of things by avoiding doing that.

Because part of what you discover, if a problem's being set in front of you, is if you actually think it through. It was amazing to me as a clinician to watch how terrified people were of thinking. It was as if they believed that if they dared to think the worst, the worst would happen. But actually what happens is that if you investigate something, like Moses investigated the burning bush, you find something.

You find your way and the dragons that you imagine to be capable of eating you are cut down to size rapidly. And the preparation for it too. So it's like this balance of not wanting to scare yourself out of the situation because of all the obvious problems that's going to be presented to you.

When you know what to expect, it's a huge advantage, I think. We didn't know a lot of what to expect when we adopted our first two. We responded out of the need, out of compassion, out of being compelled. But it's that balance we felt like when we were telling this story. We want people to know about what this really is. Because it can just be compassion. And that's not enough. You've got to understand what you're going to show up against. I think that's the sin of Eve. Right.

Thoughtless compassion, right? Because she clutches the serpent to her breast and presumes she can do it, right? Pridefully, there is the way to a fall. And then her husband says, anything you want, dear, which is his sin, right? And many do that. I mean, if you think about it, when you're alone or when there's only a few of you and you're trying to manage all of what this means, right?

It's most people fall out, most people give up. And we knew about that and we faced our own battles. And so we felt partly we want people to understand what this whole world is. We want them to be aware of it. It's on one hand, this is an unavoidable problem. Like we have to deal with this. Children are in need. We are compelled as humans and especially as followers of Jesus to get involved in that.

And so how do we make this most doable when we tell this story? Well, let's be honest. This is what's going on in these kids' lives. Let's be real about it. Let's not go so deep and real that it's disturbing and, you know, you scare people away because of that. But we want people to understand what they're getting into. We felt like we needed that when we look back. If we had known a little bit more, maybe we wouldn't.

be freaking out in those moments. We had been prepared for it. So it's that balance of obedience and just responding to an emergency and then a thoughtful approach that gives it more security and longevity. And I see that in that community. So, okay. So two questions from that. The first is when you and your wife adopted in the story of the unfolding of the biblical heroes, what happens continually is that

a new opportunity and challenge is placed in front of them.

They make the appropriate sacrifice and their character expands, right? And if that happens enough, they literally turn into new people. So Abraham becomes Abraham and Jacob becomes Israel. You change so much that you're no longer the same person. Now you and your wife adopted and that's an overwhelming responsibility. So what did that change for you and for her? And what did it change in your marriage?

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you come together, or probably either you're pulled apart or you come together. We came together. How? We needed each other in ways that we'd never felt before. Right, right. You know, you were taking care of a child you know very little about. You don't know exactly what they experienced. And they don't know how to articulate that, so they're just living and acting, and you're trying to deal with that. So for us, it was a coming together, praying through this

the what have we done moments, the oh wow, this is amazing moment. So it was a coming together for us. And it was one of the main things. - Right, so that means they adopt a challenge like that. There's a peril and a promise. And the peril is, couples often divorce if they have a child that dies, right? It's very common cause of divorce. And so you can see that in a moment of peril,

everything could be lost or something great could be gained. Right. Right. And I think that, so that level of responsibility helps. Like you feel God is with you. You know, I can't speak about this in any other way. That's how we experienced it. We felt God is with us. And because of that, we can do this somehow. And there's something. Why did you two of you feel that? Do you think? Well, there's. As opposed to being pulled apart.

Okay. I think because we had that kind of relationship. We were friends. It's just the way we have always been. You know, we are... We're close. We share a lot. We're the type that communicate a lot together. Like, we just...

We don't sort of have our own lives. We are together. And that's why we work together so well. It's because it was just a natural thing. Right, because you and your wife wrote this. Yeah. So it's just kind of probably the nature of our relationship. What do you do right to make that relationship have that quality? We give room for the other's strength, I think, in a lot of ways, when it comes to the creative part, especially. Oh, yeah. It's recognizing...

that's actually a void in me she's feeling that void I need to get room to that and discovering where the strengths and weaknesses are and then trusting that I'm going to defer because I don't see it so I'm more trusting by nature than Tammy right and so I say yes to things and people that I shouldn't and she says no to people and things that she should but if we talk yeah then we're

As wise as... What is... As wise as serpent... The complimentary... What's the phrase? As wise as serpent and as... Gentle as a dove. Right, exactly. And that's a consequence of communication across those differences. Well, that's the beautiful part of all the dynamics at play here. So there's never just one thing going on. So what's happening in your life is you're changing...

When you bring kids like this into your life, you are now seeing things in you that you would have never seen any other way. You know, you've got your biological children. You grow in ways you would have never been able to grow. And so you end up growing that. And I don't think, I mean, many challenges will reveal things in you, but children, they're not someone you can just ignore and leave and walk away from and go, I'm done with you. They're there. And if you have any decency, of course you're not going to do that. So you're sort of like,

Okay, this is part of life now. And you start to see the things in yourself that need to change, which is another part of why this is so important. Yeah, the kids need help, but there's a dynamic thing going on in the world. And when we follow Jesus, especially, he's after a lot of things.

And so as he's developing his followers and refining them, you must be put through flames. You have to be in difficult situations. That forces maturation fundamentally. Well, you see this in clinical practice as well as in developmental psychology.

kids develop on the edge of their, on the challenging edge of life. So if two kids are playing a game, if they go to a playground and they want to find someone to play with, they want to find someone who's at their developmental level or slightly higher because that's where the challenge is. And so, and challenge forces...

development maturity, right? And then you might say, well, what's the advantage to development maturity? And the answer to that is that, well, it works much better over the long run, all things considered. But it requires continual sacrifice and that willingness to challenge. And someone who's following Jesus, part of your goal is to become like him.

And you can't do that without these kinds of things happening. So I don't want to make it like a, we did this for ourselves kind of thing, but there is this layer, this reality to it that you're being purified in a sense. Well, you want to point that out to some degree because young people, for example, they don't understand when they think about children, they think about the

responsibility and the burden and the interference with their hedonic self-gratification. Right? But what they don't understand is that the children offer more to them than they take. And what they offer is, well, they offered it to you and you said that. Well, first of all, you weren't the self-centered, unnecessary center of the universe anymore. And so, not that you were particularly like that to begin with, but it's... And that's a relief. And then to be

put in a situation where you're required to mature, which is what children do in marriage as well. That's a gift, not a... It's an obligation, obviously, but voluntarily shouldered, it's also a great gift. And it's part of that process of hoisting the cross. Which I see in this community too, in some ways, like there's just everyday challenges unrelated to this issue that have developed a way of confronting problems in them that just carried into the community.

the care of children. And I see that in America, at least, you know, we're so comfortable. We, as a, as let's just talk about the Christian church, you know, it's, it's,

got a really significant level of ease and comfort. Our goals are so often not. That's why it's failing. It's why it's failing. Yeah, because people aren't being, there's not enough. We avoid the, you know, we'd rather build, you know, stages than go where it's hard. And that's understandable. It's not a guilt trip, but it's just like, but we have to understand that about ourselves. And part of making this movie was, and what I saw in this was,

These are people who are doing the thing that they say we ought to do, that Jesus says you ought to do, but they're actually doing it. And they're sacrificing. Like part of what they could have is not going to happen for them now because they've brought in these other people. So that's for us as creatives, you know, always wanting to do more than just create entertainment. We want to do things that challenge, that are important, that change people. Okay, well, so let's delve into that for a minute.

I would say probably for the most part in my life, I'm very averse to propagandistic art. It really grates on me. And it doesn't matter whether it's communist propaganda or Christian propaganda. And I would define Christian propaganda as the subversion of the art to the

what would you message false well it's more than that like it's worse than that it's it's that false it's that praying in public yeah look how good we are because we've produced this message and then that subverts art and it all and it makes terrible art and it's not effective but it's also hypocritical it's it's pharisee-like hypocrisy so when you're attempting to make a movie that is in keeping with your moral striving how do you

protect yourself against the temptation to subvert the art to the propaganda, even if it's moral propaganda. I love it. Well, it's, for me, I think it's starting with the, why are you doing this? And that's the first thing I think that we ask is, is this something we ought to be doing? Is it bigger than us? Is it important? We're gonna spend a lot of our life on this. So is it coming from him? Does he want me to do this? Plainly said. And then,

like full commitment to that what this was we didn't fully understand and we knew that this was not i've lived in small towns but i've never lived in possum tribe i've never lived in a predominantly black community and so we got to the point where we felt like we to get this right we got to go deep and so we decided to move as close to this community as we can we left california

We could tell the script wasn't where it needed to be. We weren't being fair to the idea. And so for me, it's a full commitment to what you're doing as much as you can. And that's how seriously we take filmmaking because they have such impact and can have such impact. So is it fair to say...

I was just thinking, while you were saying that, I was thinking about speaking on stage. And when I'm speaking on stage, I'm not trying to tell the audience what I think or what I believe to be true. I'm trying to figure something out. It's an exploration towards the end is so that I know more than I knew to begin with. But it's an exploration.

I know many people who write fiction, for example. I have a very good friend who writes fiction and he's trying to figure out what's going to happen when he's writing the fiction, right? There's not a preordained conclusion. There's a process of exploration. Now you said, because I'm still trying to figure out exactly how you stop it from being propaganda. Now you said you knew you didn't know enough and you moved to the community and you explored. So is it fair to say that the film is an exploration?

I think it's certainly that on one hand. I personally feel like art itself should be more than just exploration. Like, I think we should have an opinion. We're saying something. Could be wrong, but we're going to say it. And so part of what we do is speak from what we know.

And I don't know how to distinguish exactly from propaganda. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's tricky. But Jesus says, go and share the gospel. Go and share what's true. Go and tell the world what you know to be true. So there is a responsibility in us to actually stand by what is true to us and be okay with that.

But I think you must have a level of humility and a posture of learning so that you're picking up the nuance, you're picking up the things and allowing the things to remain that maybe aren't neat and clean and figured out. And there can be some rough edges. But to me, art that is just left to people to interpret, I think it's weird. Right, okay. So you're making a case that at least insofar as we're discussing what you did, there was an

surrounding moral framework. And you think that's commensurate with making genuine art. But it has to be submitted to the crowd. This is where I think the mistakes are made. You have to respect the art form. You can't demand of a painting to be a performance art piece. It's a painting. And a film is a film. And it has certain rules to follow. You can't

let it just be a message conduit okay so what so what can you can you specify so i watched the angel studios chosen and i watched sound of freedom and i watched them carefully um and i enjoyed them and so that was actually quite surprising to me especially with regards to the chosen because that's a hard thing to pull off yeah and they pulled it off it was on its own terms it it

it succeeded, independent of the religious context. It succeeded as a movie. It was a very difficult thing to do, especially over that protracted period of time. And I felt the same about "The Sound of Freedom." And so, and now you just finished watching. - I watched it this morning. - This morning, yeah. And so, and we talked about that a little bit on the way here and you were engrossed in it. - Yes. - And so what worked for you as a viewer?

Oh, well, it was very effective, the staging of the scenes themselves, you know, with a small child who comes into a group of people, like the parishioners, and the welcoming, and to see that a child maybe who had been alone and who hadn't had love before,

the community that I think you really showed that well that the community could gather around and really lift up that child. And you showed that in a number of different cases. - So why the community exactly rather than the individual families? - Because I think because you guys had that huge, when one of the children got lost, when Terri found herself alone in the forest,

The father called and said, bring the community. We're going to find this child. And it turned out that

her mother found her, but then when she brought her back, the community gathered around to show this, we are here as a cohesive group and we're not gonna let you go. Yeah, it was very good. - So well, God tells Moses that he's not to assume that he can do what he's being called upon to do alone, right? And you see that with the biblical heroes fairly frequently. So Abraham has Lot,

And his family and Sarah along with him. He's not doing this alone. And there's a very interesting idea that's embedded in that, which is that you can take on, and this is why it doesn't have to be about you in that narcissistic way, let's say, if you're following the appropriate path.

straight and narrow path is that you'll have your role and that will be plenty for you more than enough more than you can imagine even but that doesn't mean that there's any less for anyone else absolutely yeah yeah it's so that's that that's a cornucopia image in some way is that

The realm of possibility is such that it's fundamentally inexhaustible, which I believe is... Which so identifies this community and really people who follow Jesus. It isn't an isolated thing. It is a family. This is a globe. It extends around the globe. And the intention is for these to be done in community. And that's why this works so well. We've found that in our own lives. But this individualistic kind of approach to problems isn't...

That's not the way forward. I think it's together. And it's why we focus on the church in this. You know, I want to see hundreds of thousands of Bennett chapels because...

they captured that essence of coming together around something as a community. - Well, you see the same thing laid out. This is vitally important, right? There's a scene in Exodus where Moses is in the desert with the Israelites and they ask him to be their judge. And they're really preparing him to be a new Pharaoh. And Jethro, his father-in-law shows up and says, "You can't do this. It's too much for you and it will corrupt you, but worse,

You're depriving your own people of the opportunity to be responsible and to make their own judgments. Exactly. So it's a profound revelation of proper governance, right? Because Jethro sets up a subsidiary hierarchy of responsibility as an antidote to tyranny and slavery. And so in this community, so you start...

you start the adoption process yourself, but then other people are interested. And you said it's partly because they're listening to you and they trust you. So what happens next? What happens after you start the adoption process? You have 22 families that get involved. Does that happen all of a sudden or does it happen across? Over a period of time. Over a period of time. Because we did two classes.

I think it's the first class with 13 families, and then we came back and did another class. We had a whole lot of people on that list, but then the state

had so much because if you get involved in adoption and the caseworker, their workload just stacks up. They have so much. You got 13 families at one time to work with. That's a lot of work. I mean, and they go to bed and wake up. They sleep. They wake up because there's a lot of work involved. So

It was my intention to get 100 children in the community. But because we didn't have no resources out there whatsoever, the state cut us off. And we had got 76 children.

And one day I came from out of state and a lady called me from Beaumont, Texas, said her son, she had a grandson that her daughter didn't want anymore because she was in college and all of that. And she couldn't raise him. She called me and asked me, would we take, I said, bring him on. And this is what the last little boy that we got. And his name was Michael. And that's what made the 77. And I don't, I really believe to me that this whole thing

was a plan that God laid out. And I believe that God wanted to teach this nation what we are missing in the adoption arena. You mentioned something a while ago that really struck my attention. I thought about what Jesus went through for us. He died simply to give his life that we can have life. But then again,

How much are we willing to go out of our comfort zone to help some other child? The thing of it is, and you mentioned something about comfort. I think that what has happened, the church has gotten too comfortable. And they don't got so comfortable until they feel like that is not their problem. It's somebody else's problem.

But they failed to realize that Jesus said, I came to seek and to save that which was lost. We should be doing, if we're going to be Christ-like, that doesn't mean we're going to have to walk in his shoes. The Pharisees and the Pharisees did not agree with what he was doing, but he knew his responsibility.

When God called you to purpose, he did not say it was going to be a level road. It's going to be a smooth road. It's going to be some ups and downs. You're going to have some problems. But ultimately, if you just stay in the process,

God is going to move in him. He's going to teach you. He's going to... In all of those situations that we've been in, God made us make us stronger. He make us more aware. He help us to be able that we can be a blessing to somebody else. We went through... Yes, I'll tell anybody. Yes, we went through hell.

Stealing, lying, anything you can name. They didn't. But the thing is, God never give up on us. So why do we have to give up on the children? We did something. We're doing this and we believe today that if God's still awake in those woods, churches nowadays is so flushed with so much wealth and so much gift that they can help another child. But are they doing it? No. And here God's coming all the way down in them bushes, in those woods.

to start something, and it's got to be to show this world what we are missing. We don't know what we got locked in that system. We could have presidents and preachers and teachers and missionary workers all locked in that system, but if we don't do something about this and stop this process right now, it's sweating up every day more and more and more. I don't

I'm believing right now that God's going to use this as a catalyst to let this whole world know, hey, look, look what you're missing. Look what we have looked over. James 1.7 says, pure religion is underfiled that God accepts that we take care of the widows and the orphans. Now, have we did that? No, we have not. And God got an indictment against these comfortable churches with these big, fine family life centers and doing all that. And I'm not against that because I would like to have one of my

But the fact of it is, we got all the resources we need. When we did what we done, we didn't have no resources. Only thing we had was each other. You talk about the community. We came together and realized that the church got to come together. We created our own

wraparound support right there in the church. We deputize the men and the women to help us to watch over the children because this is a major problem that's going on. The school's got problems. I got to go to the school. I got to do this. I got to do that. But I'm not one time that I back up from the responsibility. Why? Because if God be for us,

who can be against me? We've got to realize right now that God's given us the ability to do the things that we do because the scripture said, great is he that is in us and he that is in us. We've got this power over everything, on all the money for us, over everything, over it because the Lord is with us and that's all I know. And that's what he told Moses on that mountain. He said, look Moses, you ain't got to

worry about that. He said, if you don't know what to say, just shut your mouth and I'll speak through you. So God's done the whole thing. All we got to do is be willing to go head on and do the work that God called us to do and stop looking to the left and stop looking to the right and stop looking up to the hill which come out here. We can get this thing done. This system is going to be empty. God is going to empty this system out. Why? Because he went all out of his way. And I'd like to say this too.

The first law of nature is self-worth. But the first law of grace is other-worth. Jesus went all out of his way to make sure that we can be sitting up here today.

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- Well, there's something to be said too for a demonstration case in a relatively isolated and poor community. Because if you can do it there, well, that's the idea, isn't it? And I was reminded when you were talking about part of the story of Elijah and when Elijah is running from Jezebel, right? The evil queen, essentially, the nature worshiper, he ends up in the house of a widow.

Right? And the widow has not enough food for her and her children, right? And there's a famous episode in that story where I think she hits the side of the flour barrel continually, and every day there's more flour provided. But the idea there is that it's a very fundamental idea, and it's the idea that you just expressed, which is that there's more possibility available

even to people who think they're in poverty, even if they are in poverty, then they believe if their alignment is proper and their aim is up. Now, okay, so let's delve into that a little bit. So this is a poor community, doesn't have much resources. The church isn't even architecturally sound, and yet people do this. And so how do they manage it? Like, why does it work?

Has it worked? And why did it work? It worked because, number one, we came together. Number two, it worked because the Lord was with us. We had many needs and still do. But the problem of it is, some way and somehow, when you are doing this for the Lord and doing it in His will and obeying His commandment, God would drop stuff on you that you never dreamed. God would take somebody...

that you never heard of. And he said, look, I was thinking about you and I just want to bless you with something. This is the way God, this is where you're able to accomplish things. And look, it ain't nothing to be grinning and, oh man, look who I am. It ain't nothing like that. But the thing of it is, stand in the process. I can't get that word out of my mind. Process. Up.

It's something that you stay with. If you get out of the process, you done messed up already. But if you stay in the process, expect that when God has already opened up the channel for you to walk through, all we got to do is just stay with the process, obey his will, and understand that God got your back. I don't care what happened. See, that's the same thing with Elijah. I mean, he went to this widow's house and what happened? He said, look, I'll tell you what you do. He said, I got a little oil and a little whole cake, and me and my son, we're going to

eat and we're going to drink and we're going to die. But look at God. Don't do that. He said, give me manna first. She obeyed the man of God and the mandate that was on his life. She obeyed that. What he did? And her meal never ran out again. This is what happened when we obey God. This is the thing that happened when we stay in the process and do what he said to do. It ain't

don't help in no way because we do have our adversary out there that fighting us on every hand don't want to see us do this and same thing you've done about this whole movie he fought us on tooth and nail but let me tell you something only thing i can say about that but god when you go and do something and you know that the lord is with you you don't even have to be a you don't even have to be a fear that don't even look at their faces don't be afraid of that because god is going to work it out

some way and somehow God is gonna wake up. When Israel got out there in Bani and needed some water, what God told them? Hit the rock and more water. It's just the way he does that. We don't always keep defining, but we know that God is with us. - So, you know, one of the things that's interesting about that Elijah story too, is that it's after Elijah has that encounter with the widow who is contrasted with Jezebel, who's powerful.

that's when his conscience awakens within him, right? Because this is a very crucial story because Elijah, of course, is one of the prophets who appears with Jesus when he's transfigured. It's Elijah, Moses, and Jesus. And Elijah is the first person in the biblical story

sequence of stories who formally identifies God with conscience, right? Because it's Elijah who talks about the still small voice. He realizes that God's not in the earthquake, not in the fire, not in the storm, these awe-inspiring elements of nature. That's partly why he's opposed to the nature worshipers. And what he does instead is take

everything that people had misapprehended in the awesomeness of nature as indicative of God, and he places it in a very lowly place in a way, which is the voice of conscience, right? Now, and part of the theme that we've been developing in this discussion is something like the awakening of conscience in the church. Okay, so now, do you think there's any particular significance in the fact that this is also something that happened in a predominantly black community?

No, it's something that is happening. Well, let me say it like this.

What we did was in the black community, but what God did, what God is doing now, he exposing it to the world. - Yeah, absolutely. - Because he want everybody to know that we all got a part in this. And like I said earlier, everybody can adopt, but everybody can be a part of adoption. We can do something to help. The sad part about it, if we don't do absolutely nothing, that's the sad part. But I do know one thing.

If God be for us, I don't care what happened. I don't care what they can shake the graveyard of dry bones to rise. It doesn't matter. If God be for us, we're going to succeed. This movie, if George would just give you a...

a short history of the hell, of the problem, of the situation, and of the trouble and the trauma that we have to get there just to get this far. And the devil ain't through yet. He's still raising up his ugly head. But here's the thing over here. God wants somebody who won't say no, who won't give up. And the lady told me the other day, she said these words. She said, whatever God say yes, it's

In your spirit, that's what you do. God done said yes, and that's what we're doing. We are not bagging them. We are not taking down. We are not running away because you know what? We got the power over this, not the enemy. But he want to throw up this bluff and make us feel and try to intimidate us. But look, I'm too old to catch.

be fooled by a kid. I'm not going to let the enemy try to bring this stuff down on me and I know better because I already know what the Lord said. No weapon, I mean absolutely no weapon formed against us shall prosper. We are more than a conqueror and our standings are on that. I'll say something for you. You're pretty good at that. I think there is something about

your community and even the black community at large because of what in our country they've had to overcome historically and the bond that's been created through community and family that they've thrived because of and survived because of. It's an example, I think, in a picture of what

Christian family is supposed to be like. And I don't mean blood family, I just mean spiritual family as well. So I think there is something that we noticed that allowed for this to work and is an example that we want to follow. And I think we've lost, at least in the bigger cities, I think there's a lot of smaller communities that just kind of naturally have that. But it's a great thing. It was just being a black woman and proud of being black and

But I think about my poor parents. Well, there's a particular problem with the breakdown of family structures in the black community. And so the fact that you're

working within your marriage and then you're working within this community to rectify some of the consequences of that seems to me to be significant, in addition to the fact that you're doing it with, well, hypothetically with restricted resources. It's like, it's not so obvious in a way that your community is poor.

because you actually have a community. And if you're rich and you don't have a community, you're poor. Well, it's true. It's true. I see what you're saying, too. Well, true. You're just rich and isolated, and then that often just does you nothing but give you license to pursue your idiot habits.

And that's partly why Christ says to the rich man who's in distress that he has to sell everything. Sell it all. You think you're rich, but you're not. You're not rich at all. In fact, your wealth is an enemy. That's kind of the enemy that you made allusion to with regards to the church. No, it's that comfort. You could think of that comfort

Comfort is Abraham's worst enemy when he begins his adventure, right? It's what he has to sacrifice immediately to go out into the world, is comfort. You said something that you brought up Abraham. Notice what Abraham did. Abraham, when God said, Abraham, get up and go to a land that I'll show you. Did he ask God which direction? Did he question God? Why me? Did he question what Abraham does?

gathered up his flock, gathered up his stuff, and started to hit the road. But hit the road. Now, I'm sitting up here saying, how did Abraham know whether to go north, south, east, or west? The Lord was with him. And God was showing him within his own mind the way he should go. And he went that way. Continually. And you mentioned a lot while ago, it came a time that God had to do something

because the Bible said, how can two walk together except they agree? So Abraham and Lot had to separate because God had a plan for Abraham. That's why they separate. But the thing of it is, God blessed Lot and he also blessed Abraham. But Abraham had to cut

I preached a message one Sunday. To get a lot, you got to give up a lot. And that's what we know. You got to give up your lot to get a lot. That's what Abraham done. He gave up his lot to get a lot. And after he gave up his lot, look what God done. He said, Abraham, I'm going to make you rich.

But he had to give up his own nephew in order to get this rich from God. Well, God offers Abraham four things, right? So he comes to Abraham and he says, leave what's comfortable. And he says, this is what will happen. Your life will become a blessing to you, right? Your name will become known validly among your contemporaries. Yep.

you will establish something permanent and of lasting value. For Abraham, it's a dynasty of nations. And you'll do that in a way that brings a blessing to everyone. Right, and so that call of adventurous responsibility, that's what came to you on the porch. Okay, so what has that done to your community? What have you seen happen as a consequence? First of all, to the people who adopted and the children, but...

What's been the broader impact on the community? - The enlargement of love, family, stability, faith.

sound of hope, you know, and passing down, stopping the generational curses, the breaker, being the bondage breaker, and seeing that those children, children, because they were gathered into love and impact by change, that their children, my grandchildren that I nurture,

that comes up to our home will never have to experience what they passed. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You're talking about gratitude and gratefulness. - Right, so it's a permanent change. - It's a permanent change, it's an everlasting. Just as the promise he gave unto Abraham. - Well, that's right. So what happens to Abraham is that God says to him, if you follow the voice of adventure,

and let it take you wherever it wants to take you, then you'll become the father of nations. So I'm thinking about that. Well, I think what it means... See, there's a mistake that evolutionary biologists make when they think about human reproduction.

they think about reproduction as sex. That's foolish because our children require this kind of dedicated commitment that you mentioned, right? Once you take on a child, it's like it's a 40-year commitment, right? And so

Sex just gets the ball rolling, you might say. There's an immense sacrifice that has to be made after that. And that's the sacrifice that forces you to mature. Well, what God points out to Abraham is that if he does that right, he'll establish a pattern of fatherhood that will then cascade down the generations and make his descendants successful.

Right? Because God promises him that his descendants will defeat the people of Cain, for example. And those are the resentful, bitter descendants of Cain. And so there is that. So you see that your community has adopted this responsibility that's multi-generational. And you think people are aware of that?

I mean, you laid it out very quickly. I think so. I think so. I think that, you know, coming from the same community and have the same values and, you know, touched by the same love, it's passed down. You know, you can only give out what's been given to you. And,

being in the same area and having the same, you know, form of life and expectancy before you. Yeah, you gravitate to the environment that you are in. So, yes. Yeah, I think so. Well, there's a, it seems to me too that there's

People in the modern world are searching for identity, right? They're searching for dignity. And maybe that's more difficult. Maybe that's more difficult if you're poor. Although there's plenty of undignified rich people. So it's not that clear. But it is clear, I believe, that that dignity that people are searching for is accomplished by adopting responsibility. Because you know then, like, even if things come your way that...

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I don't know, demean you? Maybe that's when socially, if you've taken on the proper responsibility, you know in your heart that, what? You probably know in your heart that God's with you. That's it. That's a period. Sell it off. Point and case. That's without a shadow of a doubt. What got Abraham where he was? And this is why we call him the father of the faithful.

Abraham was faithful. Although he messed up. Yeah, yeah, lots. He messed up. But the thing of it is, God looked beyond his faults. Yeah. Because see, God promised Abraham what he was going to do.

God is not going to go back on his promises. Now, we go back on God because we go contrary to the will, but he didn't go back on his promise. He told Abraham what he was going to do, and he did just that. And in the midst of all that, Abraham messed up bad.

But God had mercy. I guess that's why we got mercy and grace today. Because God keep on giving us his mercy and his grace to help us understand the beauty of who he is and what he want to do in our lives. Well, it also means what you were referring to earlier about

how you struggled when you first adopted children is that you didn't know what you were doing to begin with. And that's certainly the case for Abraham and for Jacob and all the biblical heroes. They definitely figure it out along the way. And

a large part of what does constitute God's grace is the fact that you can do a good thing badly and learn along the way, right? And that's a relief, right? Because this is one of the things I've really learned from reading these biblical stories is that the heroes in the Old Testament, they're very flawed people to begin with. And that's a relief because everybody's very flawed to begin with. So if there's hope for them in their flawed circumstances, that also indicates perhaps that

There's hope for all of us who are flawed to begin with. And that the proper sacrificial intent gets the ball rolling. Right. Okay. When does the movie come out? July 4th. You can actually go July 3rd, but the official opening is July 4th. So nationwide, over 2,000 screens. We'll see how it goes and it will go beyond that. And you mentioned that you have a first...

grand opening. We have a premiere. Tomorrow? It's a premiere tomorrow. Yeah, and that's in Atlanta? It's in Atlanta. Oh, it's in Atlanta. We filmed near Atlanta, so we're going to gather with the crew and everybody down there to kick this off. Okay, and so maybe we could close this. What is it?

There's a call to action in all of this. So let's make that practical. What is it that you're hoping will happen? You guys and you, what are you hoping will happen? And is there something concrete other than going to see the movie that people, because people should be interested in the movie per se, but maybe there's also something that it's calling them to do beyond actually just watching the movie. I think in a broad sense, it's really interesting

working to resolve some of the problems around us in our communities. - Right. - You think about how this problem connects to things like the foster care system is like the feeder of all kinds of terrible things in our society. You know, the,

the majority of kids who are trafficked in America, 70, 80, 90% of them have spent time in the foster system. You've got 50% of the homeless population in the United States has spent time in the foster system. The prison population, I think it's 70% of the prison population has spent time in

in the foster care. - Sure, 'cause the children aren't being taken care of. - Yeah, so this trauma and all the disruption that happens just leads to all of these other things. - So you already think this is a focal point. - We wanna address the roots. - Oh yeah, oh yeah. - And the things that we all get so brokenhearted about and disturbed by, but maybe don't feel like we can change. This is a way to change it. We get involved in the foster crisis. We deal with the root cause of this. So what we want people to do,

Go enjoy this movie. Go be moved by the movie. We made it so that you would enjoy it in and of itself. There's a bigger purpose here, and that is that we take responsibility for some of these things around us. So we want to do that with the, at the end of the movie, you'll have a way to continue spreading the news, creating awareness, buying tickets, pay it forward is what Angel Studios does. Yeah, yeah.

And then there's a website that you will be led to if you're interested to get involved. We're gonna lead people in several ways to get involved. We wanna see thousands of churches emulate what Bennett Chapel did. So you're gonna be able to get your church involved. There's people who may feel like they wanna foster and adopt. We're gonna have a way for you to learn about that and maybe even get help on the ground where you are.

and then also prevention. We wanna see this stop. We wanna see these families that are in crisis helped. So there's gonna be ways to connect through something called Care Portal, which connects families and needs to people who wanna meet needs.

It's this amazing thing where we can cut off the flow of children into the system by doing things as simple as providing beds for families or refrigerators or really it's relationship. Ultimately, the relationship is what we want. So we want people to go beyond this and look at their communities, their neighborhoods,

Focus on that. Change that. - We can see broadly speaking in our society a mounting fear of top-down tyranny. - Yes. - Right? And it's fostering conspiracy theories and terror everywhere across the West, around the world. And at the same time, what's accompanying that is a disintegration of community and a fractionation of people into atomized individual,

slaves. So we have a tyranny and slavery problem that's emerging and the historical antidote to that is subsidiary responsibility, right? You look around to see what you can do. Because then that's what they're doing. You take a place like California, they're in effect allowing 13-year-olds to be emancipated. You've got little children

who can be going into the car of a child trafficker, a known trafficker, and a caregiver cannot stop that from happening. They have to watch it happen. They could take a picture of this. I mean, so the insanity that results from people abdicating, going, no, we'll let the government deal with it. Someone else, not my problem. Well, every responsibility you abdicate to the government invites tyranny, right? Turns you into a slave and invites tyranny. That's exactly right. And the antidote, it's very interesting. You know, one of the things I've noticed recently

In my lectures, and so the public lectures, there's probably been 700 of them, something like that. The thing that strikes people most now is to draw a through line from responsibility to meaning. Conservatives always tell people, this is what you should do. But they're missing something. What they're missing is that if you do what you should do,

then you have the adventure of your life. That's what happens to Abraham, right? The greatest things that could possibly happen to him, happen to him because he's willing to take on responsibility, right? That's what happens to Christ, obviously as well. So the message there, the eternal message of the divine is that

The adventure that redeems your life is to be found in the adoption of maximal responsibility. I love that about you. To me, it goes from religion to relationship that way. When you're only acting out of ought, very cold. It's cold, that's right.

but when it's, I'm going to put within that purpose and I'm actually going to make you become more like me, this is God speaking, or the relationship between us is there. I'm allowing you to be a part of this. That's the covenant.

is the adventure and the beauty of that involvement. So yes, of course, we ought to do these. Well, that's the burning bush again, you know, because Moses, by the time the burning bush appears to Moses, he's actually a pretty well-established adult, right? He's a shepherd and doing a good job and he's a husband. And so he's already grown up. But then that extra calling emerges and he pays attention to it and that transforms his life and then the world. And that's

That's right. That's an archetypal story. That always happens. And in the end, the one you're following is seen. Right. He...

he he wants to be known but he's also limited all of this to faith and so it's a lot of these questions like why you know and should we and these kinds of things it's like well within all of that he wants to be seen and experienced and known and and there's so much happening and and i want people to understand this isn't just like begrudgingly go out and right like help kids well yeah but there's

such power in this and the experience is so deep and you're missing so much if you just leave that to someone else. - That's the invitation to the heavenly banquet. - I wanna point this out too, is that adoption is the antidote to abortion. Have the child. If you don't kill the baby, that's murder. And you're taking something you can't give.

And my Bible tells me only God give and take away. So have the baby. Somebody will take that baby if you just go on and have the baby. So to me, it's an antidote. It's a solution. An invitational solution. And it will work. And it shouldn't be like this. No, it shouldn't be like this. The church is the only entity that God ordained.

to take care of the problems of this world. When I was 15, 14, 15 years old, we say, what do you call a service station? Sometimes I call it a filling station. You go to the service station or filling station, if you need air, somebody will get a weight on you. If you need a fat towel, whatever you need right there, you can get it all fixed right there. So the church is a one-stop solution

that will fix all problems. Why? Because where the Word of God is and where God is, there is liberty and there is freedom. And that will be when the people of God come together on one accord, the presence of the Lord is there. And when the presence, wherever the presence of the Lord is, I mean, you've got everything you need right there because it's all in His presence. Mm-hmm.

So what do you say to that? Amen? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, that's a good, that's a good. Well, we hope people hear the, I mean, I, what, what shakes me inside is that there's this children, the voice of the child is in God's ears all the time. He hears. Yeah. And I think right now we're at a, we're at a very unique, this isn't just, you know, we threw a movie together. Like, no, there's something going on in the world today. And the child is at the center of that. And it's this,

the most innocent, helpless thing that God has done. He has done with us just letting that happen without us becoming involved in that and dealing with that. So there's a lot in this for all of us, but people need to understand these children right now today in America is 100,000 children that need homes. There's 400,000 kids in the system.

And just one solution is there's 400,000 churches in America. - One child per church. - Yeah, this is a really manageable problem. And so I'm hoping people hear the cry of these kids now as I was drawn in because of that, that there's suffering children all around us. There's kids, they don't have room for these kids.

They're putting them in hotel rooms alone in some places in America. They're putting them in defunct hospital wards. They're putting children back. Welfare doesn't want you to know about this because it's who wants to be told, you know, we don't know what to do about this problem, it's so big.

And it's an emergency right now. And so part of this is, let's look at this as people and go, we gotta do something here. Children are suffering, it's enough of this. We can do more than just...

Be Americans, live with the American dream or wherever you are, making your goal comfort and yourself. - This is the proper American dream. - This is it. - Yep, definitely. And it's also the dream that actually produces wealth, right, in the long run. It's not natural resources. It's not economic activity. It's the proper covenant between the individual and God. Yes, definitely. - Amen. - All right, good. Well, thank you.

to everybody watching and listening. I'm going to continue this conversation for another half an hour on The Daily Wire side. The Daily Wire, by the way, has been moving towards a practical relationship with Angel Studios, which I think would be good for both. And so that's a good thing

to see. I've really liked working with The Daily Wire and I like what Angel Studios is doing. And so the conjunction of that seems to be very good. If you want to join us on The Daily Wire side, please feel free. Thank you very much for coming up here and for what you've done.

Best of luck with the movie and with your continued endeavors. God only knows what will happen as a consequence of this. I guess we're going to find out. It's very exciting, eh, that this is all going to launch July 4th. That's a great time to have it happen, this renewal. And so congratulations on your work and, uh,

What an adventure to watch what happens, eh? Amen. That's for sure. We appreciate you guys having us. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you, Tim, very much. It was, I'm very grateful to be here and to have met you. It's a wonderful story, and I look forward to hearing how it goes for everyone. Thank you. Thank you.

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