Crime Story: Charlie Webster on Amanda C. Riley’s Web of Lies
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The following episode contains difficult subject matter, including references to sexual assault. Please take care. I'm kastle goldarn. This is crime story every week, a new crime with the storyteller who knows its best.

One of the biggest podcast of the year followed the cancer journey of a Young woman named AManda sea Riley in twenty twelve. A AManda's life was turned upside down when he was diagnosed with stage for cancer. And for nearly ten years, a man have fought hard, braving several relaxes with the help of friends and family and a community of online strangers. But there is just one problem AManda never had cancer.

Host and producer .

charlie webster spent years digging into AManda's s web of lies and created the hit podcast schema, charlie, welcome to crime story.

Hi kleine, and everyone listens. Thank you so much for having me and i'm excited to talk through commander because there's so many native gritty new ones details behind the scenes that I think we can discuss and .

before we discuss and I have such a joy every time I get to say this because there's been more than one, but we can disclose that we have worked together before. So that's something that I always want people to know, that I actually know you on a more personal level than just the woman who produced a massive hit podcast.

I love that you actually, we actually know each other, that, yeah, we actually do. We worked on the germans together, something I really proud of. You did. You did a brilliant job bringing that to just so, yeah, IT was great to work with you. And i'm glad that we can Carry on talking about different stories as well and hopefully get together again.

That would be awesome. But let's talk about AManda because he is quite the character. Tell me who AManda was is he's still a life despite despite her a diagnose.

despite having cancer many times at stage four, and then recovering relations, recovering relation. You gave a great introduction because AManda started a blog in twenty twelve, which you talked about called Linda consulate. And SHE detailed her cancer journey so, so intimately, so so many people connected to IT.

And he gave hope to a lot of people. You've got to think about the time as well. You know, now we've got everything under the sun.

We've got tiktok, instagram, twitter, you name IT. You know, the world is small. And in two thousand twelve, IT wasn't necessary like that.

Everybody was on twitter and everybody was blogging. So IT was the time of, like the fitness blog, the cooking blog, the mommy blog. So SHE hit that bloggers here and SHE such a convoluted story because there's so much more to IT. But SHE originally was part of this family because he came into his family as a seventeen year old, where he told cheer, because the eldest of the two girls had, guess what, the parkinsons former. And so AManda was seventeen, and he was helping with this person's on curriculum activities.

But SHE basically ends up marine, the husband of that family, then the couple, a litter, and curry, who were the parents of the two Young irl and a under, ended up marian curry down the wine and who was four, five years her senior. So if you kind of think of where you know, maybe there's lots of different plays of where this might have come from. Know in the fact that he spent a long time with a Young girl who had hudgins linford and then later SHE had hodgkin informer, but go much this story and because it's it's not just about this woman who fake cancer, it's about a story about psychological manipulation.

It's about a family. And you know what lies can do to a family, as well as a wider community, as well to them. Many, many thousands of people that SHE forded.

But this went on for years and years and years and years, and he became part of a of a church and a massive mega church. You know, the church is that you kind of seeing on the TV where you've got so so many people in the crowd. And the energy and SHE was part of that.

He ended up up calling herself the anointed one. You know, people thought he was a miracle. But the key really to IT is a lot of people like how, how can SHE people have been duped by her? And I don't know.

I always think, well, you would never question somebody who has cancer SHE had the best disguise ever, because you're not gna question anybody that's got cancer. And so many of us have been touched by cancer in our life is. But he was so good.

And I said to many, many of her victims who I spoke to, SHE was just like, good IT wasn't your fault. SHE was that good? He fainted in church.

SHE went herself in church, and ambuLance came to get her in church. People went to hospital to visit in hospital or having treatment. SHE emulated every step of the way of somebody who had cancer. So he wasn't just like he had cancer behind the keyboard and so many.

And when you say victims, I wanted ask you to explain, how did somebody become a victim of hers? What are you talking about when you say a victim?

It's a good question. IT wasn't just financial. You know there was people that looked after her children. SHE did have two children drawing cancer and one of them was called a miro baby that actually, he said, reversed the cancer. But that's another story.

And you know there was financials involved, but a lot of people didn't mean care about the money. IT was the fact that they were betrayed so deeply by AManda and IT was people that raise money for her. They did like ralles for her.

And he went on the pitch in different n fell games and stood there with other survivors. So SHE betrayed all those people that all victims of her lives, because that they stat there, really having to deal with something that I can only manage. And i've been through some of my own illnesses and traumas myself, and I know how ice IT is and lonely, and how how horrifically painful, not just physically, but mentally.

And he is SAT there fine with those people that was struck insane. SHE had what they had. So the the victimization is .

so deep and SHE like to her family too, right? So you include her family.

is her victims? Yes, SHE had A A step daughter, which was not the daughter who had cancer, but the Younger sister of the girl that had cancer. So IT was corries daughter and I undercard her her bonus daughter.

And you know he was part of IT SHE didn't realize. But AManda ended up using her cancer with korea in a custody battle to get jeter, who's the Youngest daughter, away from her mom. And he ended up living with a ma and cory and SHE was taken away from her, her own mother.

And I never mind what that did to her mother, a litter, but the fact that he was part of these lies and he started to question IT after a while, and he felt, you know, SHE was just a Young girl. What was he supposed to do? You know, it's so deep in terms of victimization, so is really good question. And then also, people raise money for her and people gave her money at least painful part of IT.

right? exactly. Because that feels just like like a cut. Like it's like, okay, this is what happened. IT was for the money. I guess that it's the victimization part of the more motion and manipulation that you start to question why somebody would want to do that to somebody else.

So thousands of people, decades, or at least a decade of of scaling these people, he is like, full in, this is her identity. But IT does start to fall apart. How does that happen? How how to crack start to appear that at least other people start to now think that maybe these people who are waving, you know, a red flag might have been right?

yes. So I think it's important to break that down because actually not many people did think that that became something that I had a really sensitively step around when I was making this, because a lot of people still believed her when I got involved, because I got involved stage where we weren't quite sure whether he had hundred percent light. Well, I wasn't, but the other person was just relax who SHE is. But how IT started was Nancy.

who's Nancy? Yeah.

Nancy, a hard core crime producer. That's probably the best way is a putter and very different personality to me, which I think quote very, very well. And she's really dogged and like a dog with a bone and SHE got an anonymous tip.

Yes, i'm talking years ago. I am talking like back into twenty fifteen. And so do you know look at this blog post.

I think this woman's lying and IT became very, very personal financing. And Nancy sadly lost her sister two cancer. So again, I think that really gave her the extra motivation.

But then he started to speak to a later, who is corey, ex wife and the mother objector, who's the bone daughter? And I used that word because that's how a mother termed her of AManda, and who were talking about the cost city battle. And then he could see, like the pain that AManda was causing.

And so SHE pursued and pursued and pursued AManda and really looked into everything I didn't believe her. And so that was Nancy, who actually handed IT over to to the police. And then in the end, to the irs, which is how I M got caught, because, again, something we should talk about is IT was really hard to catch AManda legally, because it's not illegal to light.

And the thing about these, these kind of crimes is the very, very behavioral and psychological. So, you know, our justice system is, no matter where we live, pretty much adversarial, where it's about, you know, this piece of evidence used all this I can prove IT. Where's behavior? Crimes are much harder, and coercive control is much harder to prove because of our justice system.

Then he just became very personal for Nancy, and the more Nancy went after AManda, the harder AManda played, and AManda actually sued Nancy and got a restrain order out against her and cost Nancy two hundred thousand dollar lawsuits. But what's interesting to your question is when you said, you know, wave in the red flag, you know, did people come suspicious? No, actually they thought Nancy was one of these horrible press people that was like just going after an innocent Young mother.

Because AManda Young, you know, she's, I think thirty seven, thirty eight now, but you know, he started doing this in our really twenties. And so you know this poor woman who is advocating for cancer, she's raising money. She's a standard beacon in the community.

She's got cancer herself. She's fighting, staged for, she's a miracle. She's got children. She's, you know, and this horrible, you know, journalist is coming after hand.

That was the narrative write up until and another was sentenced, like right up until the moment he was sentenced. Even then people would like, still not sure. So that's how convincing SHE was. And you know, when I started to speak to people, IT was this time what I just can't believe, like what you know, it's like, this is not the amount I know, and I was so conflicted, not one person. What I mean, a few people like, okay, you know, actually like there were a few things in hindsight.

And you know, I spoke to people, went, AManda was Younger, not in the podcast this is after and they said that he used to lie a lot but nobody said to mate, yeah actually SHE was this and he was that but the majority of people like don't don't understand like, you know, so I was actually Nancy that became the body. And then I actually, in the podcast, tried to kind of use those. The two female Carries IT to see what you thought about either of them because, again, AManda played into the innocent victim because she's very charming.

You know, I spoke to him many times. She's very, very polite, very charming, very endearing. Looks you in that I really, you know empathetic.

Nancy is a wonderful person and but is far more like on the nose and and a very different manner. So I think they played into each of these roles just because of their natural manor's. M.

so AManda was so good at IT. And so many, like you said, you couldn't, you know, find anybody for a long time who was really ready, but who tipped off Nancy then. Do you have any idea?

I do, but that's the million. The question I can't because I agreed that I wouldn't out this person. Now the reason why is because they felt scared have a what AManda might do, but this person didn't want to be revealed. Maybe down the line he will be because like hint, hint, we have other projects building off of this one but right now, like out of my duty and confidentially to her, like I can't say because that was part of the stipulation yeah of .

course no words.

I know you've said Nancy was the one who started all this, but so how did you get involved? What what point in the story where you .

brought in and why? So I think Nancy and I were talking about a few other stories, and SHE told me about this. AManda was like, I can't believe somebody would do that.

Let me. I be interested to have a look. So I had a look at IT. And then nonce, he was like, do you think you could make IT into a story to, like, get the story out there? And I was like, okay, let me have a look.

And I had to be really careful that, like nanc, Nancy, absolutely, he hates AManda, and AManda absolutely hates Nancy, right? So I had to step away from that and not have that opinion. And some listeners might be like this one of fake cancer.

Yes, in hindsight, we know that and she's been sentenced to prison. But but also is really important, as you know, castine is a journalist that you don't know things black and why I really don't believe IT. There's so many colors in between black and White.

There's so many reasons and complexities to our behavior and why we do things. It's not an excuse. But IT was really important that like I looked to IT that way, to be honest, commander, the actual story in podcast would never have been the podcast. IT was, if I have just gone in there baldos and gone, this woman, fake cancer. This is the story, because what IT is is a tale of psychology manipulation.

And i'll go back to a question, but the reason why I made IT like I did is because I wanted the listener to feel and understand that behavior, because the behavior is actually more common, is very noisy, stic behavior, gaslight and behavior, which we hear a lot about in terms of maybe a more intimate relationship, but we hear less about in friendships or or in general community. And but sadly, IT is quite common. So I really want to listeners to go along that journey and not have me tell them what to think, or me tell them what this woman did in IT.

Once I thought to look in the story, IT really did intrigue me. I got into the stage where SHE was being investigated by the police, and house had been raided by the police. AManda and stop SHE Carried on posting SHE.

Actually, you, the more the police went after a, the more he turned the heat up and and doubled down. And so I got involved in that stage. And then Nancy and me went through all the blog post. But Nancy, he done so much work beforehand. Ds, and then I separate of myself and started to do my own investigation.

So who who did you talk to?

Nancy was closed with correy's x wife again, reminder, and that AManda's now husband and that side of things. So I was like OK and speaks to more people that i'm no mander. Let's speak to the church. Let me speak to the pasta that he was very close to. Let me speak to her closest friends.

And there's some people that aren't in the podcast because again, they were they were slightly too fearful to go on tape or mike and some actually, you know sadly felt may be ashamed about there as if they were complicated even though they weren't. And that's the funny thing about our behavior. And going back to the conversation about victims, we sometimes blame ourselves.

And few people I sport to were like, I don't understand how I could have not seen IT. And part of my job was also reassure them, know i've never been in that situation, but I have been in situations of betrayal and arising on the other end of IT and trauma myself. So I understand that you yourself blame it's like a really common simpson. Maybe should we say that of trauma.

but I think you particularly would be sensitive that stuff because I don't know how much I think we should talk a little bit about you because you you have had the trooper. I mean, you've very open about IT, so we're not good likes you know what you talking about, something that you don't put out there, but I think you are history does help who they see walking in the room to have that conversation. And I think probably from your background, you have a particular way of approaching those conversations that make people even subconsciously understand that you know what IT feels like to be confused and a victim of something and and unsure of how I got to that point. And I am I saying that right?

Yeah thank thank you and for bringing that up because I do understand yeah like i've had a just a very quick one and I and I don't want to trigger anybody. But I was raised in very severe domestic abuse, and I come from a very poor backgrounds. My mom had is a teenager.

We were homeless twice when I was Younger. Then when I was a teenage, I was groomed and sexually missed by my running coach. So, you know, I had a lot have turmoil before.

I even turned eighteen. And then in my adult life, seven years ago, I fell critically ill and I ended up in a coma. And then that was another trauma, another fight.

And i've also gone through the the battle of, you know, feeling ashamed for a long time. I felt ashamed about about what happened to me and ashamed about my past. Even going into this industry.

I was like what people knew know that i'm from that because, you know, the industries is quite privileged and it's hard to come from where i've come from to even get to where the majority people start. So, you know, I Carried that, you know, that shame and even into starting media and thought that, you know, I wasn't good enough. And then after a wild started to realize, to your point, 那 oh， the people i'm talking to and i'm working with are people like like me.

I even did a show called surviving on chapo recently, and I worked with j and pete florida, who are twins, that turned chapel in. And I know we hit the quite commander, but you know that people would think they were the biggest drug traffic, as in north america. And then they turned on a dime and they ended up turning out chapter in voluntarily. It's unheard of and put themselves at risk.

And people would think, you know, I, what am I? I can't relate to these people. But we spoke for, how was an hours about post romantic stress disorder.

We talked about mental health. We talked about chaotic backgrounds. We talked about, you know, their dad was in prison. We talked about they were groomed in behaviorally from Young age to drug traffic from the age of like seven. And we talked about those behaviors, and we had so much in common.

So I think, yeah, soon realized that, you know, maybe I could help tell stories and help people see them on a different light, because in ways I can relate to a lot to a lot of the emotions that that connect to them. And I could, in the case of scamander, in the story of commander, you know, even I even spoke to AManda and and didn't go there. Shall and I know other people tried to do with her, know i'm not here to George.

I just love to understand and with, again, victims and maybe some people would not like being called that, but you know, they wear victims of a crime. Let's just like hard line. No, no emotion adjustment around IT.

They actually were and whether that's emotionally or financially or you know their time, people gave there so much time to AManda and their heart to AManda. And I think sitting with those people and helping them understand that IT wasn't there fall. And every single person said to me that they had a piece of the jigs or in this story, right? But they didn't know the rest of IT.

And so so for so many people, I was helping them put the pieces together of their own experience, which helped them processing in, moved to the other side. That was a very long thing. I really going to have very little same less plug as we are speaking. Now Catherine and I ve not announced this, but when this comes out, I will have announced c, but i've got a book coming out on trauma in may call why it's OK to talk about trauma.

You can tell that's awesome. That's awesome. Truly good for you because you're ough busy enough because you don't spend enough time writing. But whatever. Get more. Yeah, exactly.

What did you find out about? Why did you go? How far down that road did you get to figure out why SHE behave this way? I know that, like you said, that's the one question and everybody wants to know and you're not going to get the full answer. But i'm curious to know how far down the road you got.

So I did go down the robot hall. Nancy would think differently. Nancy thinks IT was financial. I really don't think so. I don't think he also was premeditated.

Cn, and I was really two minds about call in in its commander because originally we're using commander as a joke working title. And then I did not call in IT that. And I was in two minds because of the word s camp because it's scam, AManda.

So schema, and I didn't feel like I did IT justice because of the why? Because I don't think to me as scan is like I I always think it's like a car. You know, it's something that's pretty meditated, people scaring people out of money.

Where is AManda? I feel like I was something that he did, and then SHE lied. And then I just grew from there. And and SHE got validation through IT, and he got attention through IT and self worth through what he was doing. And then I just Carried on and Carried on and Carried on.

So if you're in that situation, right, you can't when people start questioning you, if you really think about biologically, if you go on, oh, I mounted, i've lied, then you've got ta look in the mirror and you gonna lose a lot. So that's why a lot of people doubled down on their lives because it's self protection. Is human self protection going back to fight and fly? Because IT means that you can Carry on, not without losing face.

So it's actually quite a common behavior for people like that. And I honestly to appoint, since he believed her own lies and what he was doing, and even think about IT. And again, I just wanna Carry out that this is not a justification.

It's just took to understand her behaviour. You know, he was stood on stage and people were in all of her. He became a local celebrity.

And you know, that's attractive to a lot of people. IT really is a lot of people, a lot of Young people. They go on tiktok, they go on youtube because they're trying to be known and a celebrity. And I think that but IT was he got attention. He got three things and I don't think IT was about, you know, buying if I it's .

interesting that he still holds IT up. So in prison, she's obviously not being treated for a cancer and SHE still alive. So how was SHE telling you that? That all makes sense. That's a really .

good question. I mean, he is in a medical facility which is interested in and SHE is saying that he is not very well. I don't know what and I didn't know whether whether that's true or not, but that's what I know and that's what she's telling me.

And you know, he does say that he is sorry about the people that SHE hurt. And but interesting. Ly, when you listen to the podcast in the last episode, I had like a greatest choice to make, because I play out the court situation.

So I play out among his whole statement, and the judge a statement, and a lot of creators would have just cut that out and said, he got sentence to exam of years. He got sentence to five years, by the way. And which was the first case of its kind.

And also the recommended instance was twelve to eighteen months, and he got five years federal. And now this case has been used by police all around different states in the us. How to catch these people.

But the reason why I play that out is because I wanted people to hear what I was like. I was in that court room, and I wanted to hear what AManda said because he didn't actually say that SHE lied about IT. And he did, you know, he said, sorry about the people that he had hurt, but she's never actually said that SHE lied about cancer, which I find really interesting.

What did the police actually charger with? Can we talk about that? You said it's the first time, which is fascinating, and that you got more. So can you break down what they actually charged her with and like how they got her?

Yeah, I find this really interesting. So the police went after her. He was the son who say police, and IT was a detective called hoa Martina as a really great guy. And he's in the podcast.

And he went after the case and he said that he had so much work on at the time, like he was pretty much a one man department, and Nancy kept pushing him. So is Nancy. That's the case to him.

And there was something about this that made him Carry on and pick IT up. And I think IT became personal for him. And that was where that was a man as downers because I honestly think she'd got away with IT.

But IT was the fact that a lot of people resonated with IT. And but like that, I could be my family that she's targeting and taking money off. And actually, like all of us know in some capacity, somebody that's been effective by cancer, whether it's ourselves or a family member or friend or somebody that were close to in our community.

So I think that that was her best disguise, but also was her downtown, because people emotionally connected to IT, rather than just doing that as their job. And that's what happened with detective mariners. So but he just kept getting stuck and going up against walls all the time because he couldn't work out how to get her, and because he was protected by hipper laws.

So he was phoning up hospitals and hospitals and they were I can't give you any information about this patient. And and and I think it's so interesting because I think the major was just think she's doing something wrong. The police should get her, but it's actually not like that they need so much evidence to build to bring a charge.

They don't tend to bring anything to court unless they think they can get a dead on conviction. Help laws protect all our medical records. So IT is to do with anything medically then that the police can't access IT, but that he did manage after a long time.

And i'm talking several years, he is going to hospital and he describes IT really well, far Better than i'm doing. And he said, okay, fine. Just tell me though, is this person a patient? And then they said, no.

So IT was only by the fact that he got that confirmation that he wasn't a patient. He could then take IT to the irs and then the IOS ended up charging her with wire ford. SHE was only convicted for the money that he took online.

So all the cash, I mean, I got a picture of her where there was cash roone at her feet on stage in church. None of that council, all the like services in kind like, you know, food and clothes and my baby sitting and fundraising. No and trip.

Yeah, he went to new york several times that was funded and funded, you know, in business class, you know, air flights as well, and that was all funded by people. None of that counted is only the money that you gave online to donate to her cause that SHE was convicted on because that was the only thing that they could prove, because I was through why for that was the only way they could charge her. I think I think it's fascinating, just even the charge aspect of how this justice system works with these kind of cases.

And I know you ask this, this gets us in the podcast, but everybody's always curious about her husband. He was never charged. How you know? What do you believe you think he didn't know? He insists he didn't know.

You're right. This is the question people, a lot of people ask. So he didn't get convicted. So I found a key piece of evidence, which was the audio from because they claim bankrupcy twice on AMandas medical bills.

So again, it's not just the money that was taken off line that he got convicted for. There was also the money that they claim they clam bankrupt twice. They actually a litter.

The ex wife of cory was paying child custody to a litter and curry because of AManda's medical situation. So there was a lot of money coming in from different directions. That wasn't part of the actual case.

But IT took me probably about six months, maybe even more, to get the audio from the bankrupcy. But it's of curry basically taking the oath and he says that he goes to every single appointment with AManda. Yeah so there's a lots of different things.

If you listen carefully to anything where anybody is talking about cry because other people, they speak about him and what he was like and you know the things that he did, I mean, he told people he was a fire man and he was never a fireman. You know, there's lots of little things that really didn't add up, so you can go and make your own mind up. And if they involved him, they were worried that they would actually lose them both and they wouldn't get a conviction.

So they had to choose. And AManda chose not to say anything about cory, which I think is really, really interesting. And he the whole time claimed that he didn't know.

But in court I was there and quality, you know, his daughter was giving a really emotional victim testimony. And IT was really emotional. I mean, he talked about how this affected in mental health. And SHE was really upset and as you can imagine, like she's nineteen now and corry just didn't even react.

And I assuming the couple they're still together and he's just waiting for his wife .

to come home still together. He has the two we've got two little boys and which in the grandparents of both sides look after little boys as well. And corey got the boys in there still together, you know.

And and IT was interesting because when I first got the story, and you know, talking about how you look at the story and how I personally look at something like, hang on, there's like at twelve of year age difference. Is there some kind? Is in course twelve years older a no.

Is there some kind of I am not saying this. This is just the way that I looked to IT. I wonder if there's like some kind of good control here. I want to if he's you know pulling the strings behind the scenes. You know that's why I looked at to start with.

But you know, everything I found was that I was her that started at doing this and there was, you know, when he was in college, I found out that he said he got lumpers. And there was things that he did in college to get out of doing certain person, to get attention when he lied, you know, to put people when SHE was Young. Her that said that SHE would lie about silly things. So I think this is something that's a learn behavior from very Young. And I just think that korean here with a perfect storm because I think that my own opinion is that he's got his own things as well and that they just this just happened and Carried on and then they got stuck in that situation.

I think I say in my interests, one of the most successful podcast of the year, but I think that was the most successful podcast of the year. Can you tell me lastly sort of the response that you've had since this thing blew up?

Yeah, the response has been phenomenal and it's been so fascinating reading people's comments. You know that a lot about Carry a lot of people said, you know, why didn't I talk about a diagnosis of AManda? Like did you have one child syndrome or you know, some kind of disorder? And the reason why I didn't was because that was never mentioned in her court case.

IT was never mentioned in her defense. IT was never mentioned in any thing by the police. Any records, any medical stuff, IT was not mention.

And I thought IT was really important that I didn't decide to give her a diagnosis even if I brought psychologist in. I've said i've done a lot of psychology, worked myself, you know, that person is just making adjustment based on the podcast. And I thought IT was important not to take that away from the victims as well.

And it's the story of psychological manipulation. So that was one of the comments. And also, like the decisions that I made, some people said, you know, you could have made IT shorter.

And I was like, no, because it's not about the end resort. It's about how he did IT, and it's about taking you on that journey. It's about a mercie story telling as well.

Like, I used AMandas, but for people that have not listening to IT, you know, a mater's world post are wiped from the incident now. And you know, I used her blog post to help tell the journey from her point of you how he did IT and what he did. So it's also, it's just fascinating and stories tell him not, let's get to the point.

And also, you know, one of the other things is like the repetition of, oh, now she's got cancer. Now SHE hasn't. Now she's got stage for now she's really laps, now shehata now she's back.

And the reason why is that repetition isn't because I am repeating things, because that's what he did. So it's important to show that if I just go, you know she's got cancer SHE had IT you know four times in real to four times, then that's boring. And you need to feel how he did IT to understand the complexity of what he did and how i'm talking like. Not just hundreds, thousands of people were along for the ride and believed right up until that there was people that stepped into that core that still believed her.

Yeah, I think that's the incredible part, is that you show just how long IT lasted and how good he was as IT added, to maintain that life for so long, he really had to be good at IT to make you believe that somebody could relapse four times exactly yeah and still be alive yeah exactly.

But it's you know again, it's not I think it's not as obvious this hindsight right? You can look back and go you who look, I feel like I could do about average.

So thank you so much for joining us. It's really nice to see you, and it's nice day here for you again.

Thank you having me on. Thanks, everyone, for listening to.

You've been listening to crime story from cbc podcasts. We drop a new episode every monday. You can get our next episode a week early on cbc podcast, youtube channel or by subway bing to the cbc podcast through crime channel on apple podcast, in addition to early access subscribers to our true crime channel.

Also listen, ad free crime story is written and hosted by me, kathleen guitar. Our producers are Alexis Green and Sarah lain sound designed by Julia women. Our senior producer is jeff Turner.

Our video producer is of an a guard, and our youtube protector is john ley. Executive producers are Cecil fernanda and Chris oak. Tony est springer is the senior manager of cbc podcasts, and arf neuron I is the director of cbc podcasts.