53: West Memphis Three: Part Two | Red Thread
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Hello, welcome to Red Thread. We're back with part two of the West Memphis Three. Last week, we said goodbye to our dear friend, Caleb Umperville. He joined with us for 20 weeks and now he's flown off to the great beyond.

Up there with Charlie, I hear. I hear they're partying up there and, you know, having fun. It's a shame he died in that candy factory accident. That tragic candy factory explosion that got him.

This is part two of the West Memphis Three, and as a special little addition, we brought with us my fiancée Kira again, who joined us over the holiday break for the 300 million yen heist video. Fan favorite, you killed it, Kira. People really loved you. They wanted you back. So welcome back. Hello.

Hello. You'll be joining us as more of a backseat producer role, so that if you want to add any information and stuff, you can interject and correct us. You're also welcome to steal the wheel in the front seat anytime you want. You did write the document, so thank you. We are just saying your words and stealing your words. We are just quoting what you're saying. It's like, yeah, backseat, but you also built the car, so it's... You guys are the pretty faces, and I'll just... If there's anything, I'm just here if you need me.

You are way prettier than both of us combined. Yes. Happy Valentine's Day, by the way, to everyone out there. That's a good reminder that it's Valentine's Day, or it was. I hope you guys had a good Valentine's Day. Now it's time to get depressing, though, because we've got to continue the West Memphis Three, which we started last week.

So, uh, that, that's a good reminder. There's a part one to the episode that lays out all the groundwork for this episode. So, you know, uh, go watch that instead if you're just jumping in now, cause you really do need all that information. Uh, the, the initial information about the case deals with like the investigation and the actual disappearance of the three boys who were later found murdered. Uh,

And it also covers the backstory of the accused, which were the West Memphis Three, Damien Echols, Jesse, Miss Kelly, and Jason Baldwin. Yeah, it's a super contentious case. There's so many different opinions about if they're guilty or not, if the police got the right people. So we did get a lot of comments last week about how we didn't perhaps...

Add a lot of information about why people would still believe that they're guilty. So we wanted to kind of start this episode in quite a lengthy way of going over that and discussing more in detail about that.

the three, uh, the West Memphis three and why people still believe that they're guilty. Just to give a more broad kind of overview about the case. Cause this is honestly, I've dived so deep into this in the last week since the part one recording. And there was so many opinionated, like violently opinionated people on both sides of the aisle. It's like politics almost. It is such a contentious debate between whether or not they're guilty or not. Um, so it's, it's,

It's up to you, really. You listening, if you believe that the West Memphis Three are guilty or not. There's no definitive answer. It's kind of just up in the air. So, Isaiah, how did you end last week again? What were your thoughts before we really started?

That that lady was insane. Whatever her name was, what it was like. The one who went to the witch orgy. She went to a witch orgy undercover like James Bond to try to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. I think she's insane. And other than that, it sounds... I made the opinion that the mentally ill boy, which one was he? Jesse Miskelly. Jesse. That...

He was kind of manipulated or just kind of like suggested into saying what the police wanted.

Yeah, so he confessed, but the main argument against that is that he was coerced by the police into giving that. Yeah, I mean, he was a mentally unwell person who spent 24 hours in an interrogation booth, or 12 hours, however long it was. We'll get to that eventually, but that was actually a point of research that we got wrong last week that we'll need to correct in this one. He confessed after two hours of interrogation, which is a pretty big difference in my eyes, but yeah, we will get to that eventually.

But yeah, people still, like you said, people still believe. And there is kind of evidence suggesting that he was, at least the police employed suggestive tactics in order to get that confession. So I do think that that's still a possible thing that people could argue.

But yeah, two hours of interrogation and him confessing is far different to him being grilled for like 12 hours, which is what the common argument currently is. Like, I think that's, that changes things quite drastically for me.

But yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of... If I want to give my opinion right up front, I'm kind of of the opinion... I'm leaning towards them being guilty, honestly, from all the evidence that I've read through. There's no physical evidence tying them to it, but there are so many strange little things and kind of circumstantial evidence that makes me think that they're guilty. I don't think...

Regardless of whatever happens in this episode, I don't think that there's enough evidence to convict them or anything. I think that they're just probably the most likely suspects at this point in time. Interesting. Okay. Yeah.

But I again, I don't fault anyone. This is like centrist me sitting in the fence. I don't blame anyone who thinks that they're innocent because there is also obviously like not enough proof to convict. Like I said, I believe they murdered three children, but it's your opinion if they did it. It's all up to you, dude. I don't know. It's such a difficult topic because no matter what you say, you are going to get shit from people regarding it.

Oh, well, sure. Yeah. So we're going to go deeper into each of the three suspects, the West Memphis three here, to kind of provide information about why people might think that they are guilty, because we didn't really do a great job of that in the last episode. So Isaiah, would you like to start? Damien Echols, as we touched on before, had a questionable past before the murders. He

He apparently tried to drink blood from someone, which is documented in a psychological evaluation that was conducted when he was institutionalized, and he had a lengthy history of being violent towards other patients as well as having a habit of talking about killing people. We touched on these in the first episode, but there is another story that we didn't have time to include.

Starting a year before the murders, in May of 1992, Damien was first referred to a family treatment center for people with possible mental illnesses. There are reports and podcasts online that talk about allegations from Damien's sister, named Michelle, that allege that there was sexual abuse within the family. This abuse stemmed from their father and, from the abuse, it manifested emotional and relationship problems and disorders within the siblings. Hmm.

Damien was seen as someone who regarded himself as someone better than everyone else, stemming from his belief that people don't actually have feelings for one another and that we all just use and harm each other, likely stemming from that alleged abuse against his sister by their adopted father. Damien's mother appeared to be worried and quite scared about her son's possible developing rage and expressed to caseworkers his inability to handle it. Yeah, so I think there's actually like, um,

Yeah, there's testimony, not testimony, but in their psychological evaluations and stuff, there's witness accounts from her mom and such talking about kind of how unstable he was at home and how violent, his violent tendencies. And I believe that the mother said that she was quite scared of him. So that paints a picture of kind of like the familial life that he was leading at the time. Very unstable individual. He's still to this day, even after him being freed,

He strikes me as a very weird person and even people that kind of decry them as being innocent agree with that as well. Like I saw a lot of comments on Reddit and such of people talking about having met him and thinking that, yeah, he's probably innocent, but he is a super weird dude in real life. So he's still got that reputation and kind of oddity about him. I guess prison's not going to take that away.

Yeah, regardless if he committed the murders or not, he had a lot of issues. Yeah. And being weird is not a crime. Yeah. Being weird in itself is not a crime. I would say trying to drink people's blood. Well, I guess blood drinking in itself. You never went through that phase? Being a vampire back in high school? That was awesome. Well, you know, I'd have to say I missed out on that. I was almost certainly into girls that went through that phase. Oh, yeah. The goth phase. Yeah.

Yeah, which is an elaborate form of self-harm on my part. But that doesn't mean that I ever myself went through that phase. I was always like a bubbly, good little Christian kid. Was that why the goth phase was attractive to you, the contrast? If I sat down with a psychologist and waited out, probably. That probably had some bearing on it.

But to this day, I'm a fan of the dark eyeliner, whatever that means. Yeah, there's something there. There's something weird about that level of attraction. I like things that are bad for me. I think it's normal to be attracted to that. There's a little bit of riskiness and alternative nature to it that makes it kind of attractive.

What do you think? Word from the producer. What do you think, Kira? Are you attracted to goth chicks as well? Not particularly. Fair enough. Moving on. Lame. I mean, yes. There we go. Now you're one of the boys. That's more like it. So beyond that, Damien simply didn't have the cleanest record.

around the time he was first referred to the treatment center debian ran away from home with his first girlfriend deanna holcomb their parents did not approve of the relationship and insisted they ended motivated and pushed especially by deanna's parents prompting them to attempt to run away to california at the time damien was 17 and deanna was 15. it wasn't long before they were reported as runaways and found quickly

Damien was angry at Deanna's parents with evidence suggesting him threatening to kill her dad. That won't go over well. That won't fix the situation, by the way, if you threaten to kill your girlfriend's dad. I doubt they'd let you be together after that.

Not a good solution, Damien. Depends on how good you are at it. There's only, there's a limit to how good you are at it. And that, you know, ends with you actually murdering him. I feel like there is a point where you actually make them think that you're going to kill him. So it's like, well, you better date him so that dad doesn't die. Oh, you think you can make the threat, like the threat. So I don't know, like kind of convince the father that you're a strong individual by making the threat. So then he's like, that's what I mean. It depends on how good you are at it.

yeah this man will protect my girl that's what that one guy did uh oh man i'm forgetting his name the guy who got murdered by a whole town there's a book about it called in broad daylight um i forget his name together to murder him yeah they literally had a town hall meeting and they're like someone has to do something about this guy because the police won't and then they heard he was at a nearby bar and 30 people walked over to him someone shot him and all 30 said they didn't see anything um

You have to be so disliked for that to happen. What did this guy do? Yeah, well, he had went to like a 12, I think she was 12 or 13 at the time, and like beat up the father.

And I was like, this is going to be my wife. So like he took her as his wife and then he like burnt down her parents' house. Then he burnt down the houses of a bunch of people around town. And he like beat up a few people and shot a few people's dogs and stuff like that. And he like, he knew the judge and stuff. So every time he got arrested, he would just get out, uh, off. So they literally had a town hall meeting where they're like, we have to kill him. And they did. I did. I saw him in a bar parking lot. Um,

I agree with those moves. Yeah, that makes sense. I would be down for that. I'd vote yay at that meeting. Yeah, it's like... It's an interesting story. Ken McElroy, that was his name. Yeah, there we go. But, yeah, it's kind of... Like, if you do that...

Mine is the underage part. If you're that mean, like you beat up the dad, and you're like, she's mine now, I guess it works, hypothetically. Well, technically, he's also underage. She was 15. I mean, he was 17. Well, he was 17. They were both underage. They were both in high school, yeah. Damien was angry at Deanna's parents, with evidence suggesting him threatening to kill her dad.

The pair were found in an empty mobile home in Lakeshore State. Due to their ages, Damien was charged with sexual misconduct on top of burglary as there had been evidence of sexual activity between the pair. All right, two things. One, what is evidence of sexual activity? Used condom, maybe? Well, I doubt they were using condoms. And then what...

In California? Is the age of consent in California 17? No, I don't think they had made it to California at this point. I don't think they had even left the state, I'm assuming. So whatever state they're in has, like a 17-year-old can't be with a 15-year-old? I guess. I remember reading about this, that when they were found, they were pretty much in the act of doing something.

Oh, okay. Oh, they were banging when they showed up? They were in the throes of passion, Jackson. Not like 100% sure. There's always so much information with these sort of things, but I read something that said they were found. Yeah.

Being very passionate. But that, if that's still not a crime, like they can't barge into a bedroom and see two people making love and then like charge them with sexual misconduct. Well, that's what I'm saying. If the age of consent is 17 in whatever state it was, then that's a adult with a minor.

She was 15. But that would also mean the state didn't have any Romeo Juliet laws. Yeah, that's what I would think. Romeo Juliet laws still like an 18 to 15 year old. What state did they get caught in? See, when I looked up age consent for Arkansas at 16...

Oh, okay. So if they were still there, then... Yes, well, then that makes sense. That makes sense. So if the age of consent is 16, she was 15, he was 17. So he's over the age of consent, she's under. And if they didn't have Romeo and Juliet laws, then yes, he's having, you know, illegally having sex with someone underage. I guess they didn't have Romeo and Juliet laws. Yeah, that's weird.

For those of you that don't know, Romeo and Juliet laws basically provide leniency or a solution to people who are like, realistically, these two people should be fine to have sex since they were close in age and probably school together and stuff like that. That shouldn't be treated the same as like an actual case of pedophilia, obviously. So that's why Romeo and Juliet laws exist. Okay. No, it counts.

It says the example used on the Arkansas State website is a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old have consent. But maybe this was before they added that. This was in the 90s. Who knows when they added that. And not to get caught up in the weeds on it. But anyway, Damien denied stealing anything or breaking in, claiming that the mobile home was unlocked and abandoned. Damien apparently later told a psychiatrist that when all of this was happening during the arrest, he thought about grabbing a police officer's gun and shooting Deanna's father.

Damien was admitted into psychiatric care four times before the murders, once in June and twice in September of 1992, and then once in January of 1993. In a discharge report from Charter Hospital, it's described how Damien was suspended from school at least seven times as he was impulsive and violent. He would set fires frequently, and he would threaten others often.

There's a situation where he attempted to gouge someone's eyes out at one point, and there was also other situations where he physically assaulted other students. The report also talks about conversations that he had with staff that highly concerned them.

The worst reported conversation was that he and his girlfriend were going to have a child and then sacrifice it. That's huge. That's a big conversation. As well as an accusation that Damien had chased a younger child with an axe. So that's a twofer. That's both. That's massive. Wait, so Kira, is that an accusation that the axe chase happened or were they just talking about it? The axe chase? Yeah.

So, yeah, just on a base level, though, having a conversation with your girlfriend that you're going to have a child and then sacrifice is kind of... That's pretty rough. That's pretty metal. That's pretty rough. That's pretty hardcore, yeah. Metal implies a level of coolness to it that I'm not going to attribute to child sacrifice. What's the negative connotation of metal? It's the negative version of metal. Pretty brutal, you could say. Yeah, brutal.

Sadistic? Yeah. Yeah. Evil. Yeah. Those count. If you can't find it, it's all right, Kira. So what I can see is just closer to you saying, supposedly Damien chased a younger child with an axe and attempted to set fire to a house. He denied this behavior. Okay. So it's just an accusation that it happened. Okay. Okay.

Damien denied these claims and said that the accusations had come from his girlfriend's parents who wanted to tear the young couple apart. During the stay at the Charters Hospital, he was formally diagnosed with major depression. So there's nothing even to say that the whole sacrificing a baby thing was 100% confirmed. That's just what her parents said, which are likely a more reliable narrator than him. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's got a history of the behavior. The parents could be lying, but that seems like such a specific lie as well.

um like it seems like something that would be rooted in some level of truth uh parents talk about like uh like oh i'm so afraid my daughter's gonna date some scumbag or something imagine your daughter dates this guy like yeah oh man yeah that's that's horror story stuff yeah i don't know if it was also just her parents that were talking about this i think that um

If I'm remembering correctly, like there was a parole officer who pretty much had his eyes set on Damien his entire like teenage life. I think he was a pro, like he was there at the charter hospital that we're talking about right now and would keep him under eye and watch basically. If I'm remembering correctly, he also like talked about this as well with the child sacrifice. Like attested to those kinds of conversations and such. Gotcha.

Through Damien's multiple assessments, depression was a clear, consistent diagnosis along with suicidal thoughts. He was also diagnosed with something called rule-out psychotic disorder. This is when the patient's symptoms don't necessarily fit into a specific diagnosis profile and the healthcare professional is looking into possible further testing.

There are also a few comments on him potentially aligning with bipolar disorder. Damien actually took a test called MAPI or the Million Adolescent Personality Inventory. Oh, sorry, not million, the Millen Adolescent Personality Inventory. Specifically designed to test behavioral characteristics of adolescents. Damien showed impulsive hostility, a distrust for others, and a strong defensiveness, especially against criticism towards him.

He showed a want to be powerful, therefore being outwardly aggressive and cold as a way of reclaiming power for himself. It's not completely...

abnormal for people who have come from broken homes and where your parents obviously have mistreated you. Although I don't think he, I think the stepfather sexually abused his sister and not him just to make that clarification, but still obviously not a good home setting. And then when paired with the obvious mental health issues that could obviously lead to a very angry person who wanted to exert power over others.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's obviously, we'll have pictures up on the screen here, but there's pictures from the psychiatric report showing all of this basically written out by healthcare professionals at the time. It's very in detail. There's like 300 pages of diagnosis information and psychiatric reporting available that really goes into detail about how mental

mentally unstable damien echoes was it's pretty much just a like a guaranteed thing it's not up for debate really that he was a very uh documented uh individual with a yeah troubled teen yeah there are also further notes from charter hospital that talk about this odd demeanor and how he would apparently mediate in a strange way in his room meditate he also appeared

Oh, what did I say? Mediate. Like he's having... Man, I am off my game. I forgot what the English language works today. You can tell this was typed in Australian because I can't understand it. He also appeared to have a strange thought pattern and he appeared to be suffering from paranoia a lot. The report also indicates that personnel would notice that his eyes would move in bizarre ways, like he was reacting to something that wasn't actually there.

They took note of unusual poems he wrote, and when he was discharged by his family, he underwent another assessment. He arrived dressed completely in black, and his nails were filed into sharp points, which makes sense given that he would frequently talk of the devil and witchcraft. I mean, it also just makes sense because he was like an angsty 17-year-old too. Like, that wasn't completely out of the realm of possibility. Yeah, he wants to look edgy. Now that's metal. Now that's metal.

That's actually an important distinction as made evident by the Charter Hospital document. As it states, quote, there was also a question about his involvement with Satanism. Damien, however, indicated that he was not involved with Satanism, but witchcraft.

Yeah, I guess that's an important distinction. I disagree. I mean, they are two different things. Yeah, they are. But like witchcraft is like way... I feel like witchcraft should be tamer than Satanism. And he feels like a Satanist. Well, okay. It depends on the flavor of both. Right? Because a lot of... Like there's some witches, quote unquote, or like witchcraft stuff that's like just holistic medicine. Like, oh, I love the earth and spiritualism. Like Wiccan witchcraft or whatever. Yeah.

And there's a lot of Satanism that's just like, yeah, I think God's dead. And I actually like the theme of like loving yourself. But that being said, there's extreme flavors of both, right? There's like necromancy levels of witchcraft and there's like cutting yourself, praying to goats, Satanism. Like it, it depends on what part of the staircase you're at on each one. But by and large,

I think that witchcraft on average is less intense normally. Yes. But I wonder how that was. There's a lot of holistic. Maybe like, maybe it's, it was all the same thing in the nineties. I guarantee you. Yeah. Yeah. You sure? Like, cause public was like, okay. So actual witchcraft was not all the same. Cause it's always been different throughout history, but the aesthetics of it, what people thought of witchcraft and Satanism, I had a,

pretty much complete overlap so you think the aesthetic of witchcraft uh then is similar to what we have now with like the witches on tiktok and stuff yeah by witches on tiktok do you mean the ones that like talk like they wear flowy dresses and set out in the woods or the ones that like draw pentagrams everywhere and stuff well they don't draw pentagrams but i've always seen like posts about how they're doing psychic battles with like uh you know uh

Like gods and stuff. Shit like that. I'm not familiar with it. I need to send you some of this. I don't think I've seen this before. I would say that... I would say that's a different category than anything we're talking about. That's...

It's like the goofy level. That's why I kind of associate witchery or witchcraft in a kind of goofy way now. And I'm sure that this kid who has a lot of disorders and stuff like that, probably just liked the aesthetics. I mean, I could be wrong. I could say in a second that he had a ritual side at his house. But he probably just liked the aesthetics of it and liked the anti...

establishment appeal to it and things. And it's probably why a lot of people confuse it for Satanism because it's all just like the edgy anti-society stuff. Yeah. Likely. To add detail to the blood sucking that Damien often spoke of, in the charter hospital, another boy had slightly scratched his own arm when Damien suddenly grabbed him and began to suck the blood out.

There are various stories on how this played out. Some say he pushed the guy to the ground and told him that he was a vampire. Some tell the story of him sucking at the guy's neck, and there's another that states that the boy was attempting to kill himself. We don't really know the story here. It seemed the story grew and grew, and in the end, it seemed he did admit to drinking blood somewhat frequently.

However, Damien maintained that it was mainly from his partner or an otherwise consenting friend. What did you call it when I asked you about that, Kira? You said he had a blood boy or something? Yeah, I feel like I remember reading blood brother or something like that. It seems like maybe... I like blood boy better. This is my blood boy. Maybe a friend and they had like a pact or something.

I don't think this is inherently wrong, isn't it? There's like a fucking, there's a millionaire at the moment that's sucking blood. Yeah, I was going to mention that. 18 year old son or whatever to stay young.

He does plasma transfusions, I think, between his son and himself. Yeah, I was on board until they started comparing boners the other night on Twitter. They were posting about the strength of their sleep boners, basically. Like, they're comparing. For me, he's so evil that it's funny. The blood transfusion guy.

It's the equivalent of Jeff Bezos being like, I destroyed a quarter of the rainforest to build a swimming pool. It's like, wow, this is like a cartoon character. I'm sucking the youth from my son to stay alive for five more minutes. Yeah, I'm trying to stay young forever by doing blood transfusions with my son. It just cuts you to sleep.

It's so cartoonishly evil that I'm like, good on you, man. I don't want to keep going. It's a circle around from being just evil to being funny evil. Yeah, like, you're not even trying to hide it. He called him his blood boy in a tweet, I swear. Yeah, that's probably where I got that from. It's like, at the point where you look at your son and you're like, come here, blood boy, make me young. Serve up dinner.

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, Damien had a blood boy, it would seem. Yeah. He created the trend. He created the trend. However, Damien maintained that it was mainly from his partner or an otherwise consenting friend. He stated that it, quote, made him feel like a god, that it would give him superpowers. When he was admitted, it was also reported that he wanted to commit suicide. He possibly had a pact with Dina.

He was not afraid of this because he thought he could just come back through something akin to reincarnation.

He actually attempted suicide after he was arrested by saving up and storing antidepressant medication and he had been prescribed and then taking them all at once that he had been prescribed. However, perhaps coming to his senses, he immediately notified the staff of the jail what he had done. Suicide note reads, quote, Dear Mom and Dad, just remember I am a Wiccan and will be reincarnated. I promise.

Love you very much. You know I was innocent. I will find you, even in spirit. Just make sure you always remember that I love you no matter what. End quote.

The quote about Wiccan implies he may have actually known what he was talking about with the witchcraft thing other than just the aesthetics. Because Wiccan's a bit more specific, right? It's a technical term, yeah. It's a technical term, exactly. Reincarnation as well, is that like a pretty big part of Wiccan culture and stuff? I don't know. Wiccanism's the whole belief that like...

There's like all these lesser spirits and entities and stuff that you can summon or call upon. So I'm sure I don't know of it being a major part of it, but I'm sure reincarnation fits in there somewhere. And if it doesn't, let's also keep in mind the individual we're talking about. He's not exactly...

balance right i don't like the idea of reincarnation by the way i don't find that a very comforting thought reincarnation seems very inconvenient yes because there are so many things you could be reincarnated as and plus like how is it necessarily comforting knowing that you're going to be reincarnated because once you're reincarnated you don't have any memory of your previous life so i don't know it's effectively you die like you as you understand yourself die and you reset and i also don't like it because it implies that

Like everything that happens on earth right now is the whole point. It's as good as it gets, right? Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. I'm not crazy about it. It's a weird idea. Neither. He would also harm himself by cutting and burning his skin and he would tattoo himself also.

He had a history with drugs as well, trying a lot of different kinds, including but not limited to weed, speed, cocaine, acid, gasoline, propane, and spray paint. Wow. That jumped up quite drastically at the gasoline point. If you're doing gasoline to get high. We started at weed and ended with spray paint. Yeah. I think I remember the original list here that you had, Kira, included tobacco and alcohol, and I kind of removed them for the effect. Yeah.

I feel like that was a bit too tame. I mean, we can assume that beer and cigarettes is in here somewhere. He's on the straight and narrow apart from weed, speed, cocaine, acid, gasoline, propane, and spray. California sober, they call it. Yeah, I remember there were some people...

from back in like Kentucky who would get high on wasp spray so they would take wasp spray like spray that kills wasps

Yeah, spray that used to kill wasps. And they would take a screen door and they would spray it over the screen door. And then if you left it for a while, it would dry and harden. And then they would beat the screen and the dried flakes of wasp spray would fall out and they would snort those. Oh my God, dude. What the hell? To keep in mind, these are people who are like...

like covered in scabs and meth bugs and like you know completely amped up all the time yeah yeah like well they might have just been getting i feel like you've got to try to kill the wasps i feel like you've got to try every other drug that exists before you move to wasp yeah that's that's a level of desperation heroin yeah yeah you've run out that's that's crazy

Also extreme poverty, of course, you know, like, yeah, if you, if you need to get high and you've got no money and stuff, obviously. I also feel like you don't get high on wasp spray and hold down a well-paying job. I feel like that. It's two things are antithetical to each other or any drug abuse. Really?

Yeah, I did. I did see a post earlier from it was like our slash addicts or some Reddit group. A guy posted a picture of him with spider spray and next to the spider spray can was poop on his bed.

And like human poop. And the caption said, the caption said, every time 11 huffs, I'm fine. 12 puffs, here comes the poop man. He's got a dad to his sides. He knows exactly, exactly how many it takes. Every time on the 12th of spider spray, here comes the poop man. I'm so happy we, like I live the life that I lead where I'm not shitting on my bed.

It could always be worse. It could always be worse. Like, whenever you're at it, it could be worse. Those subreddits, those drug, like, subreddits, you know, built around, like, drugs and stuff, are actually insane. I'm not talking about, like, r/trees, which is like, weed and stuff, but like, there's like, crack cocaine ones where people are like, talking about... There's r/meth. Yeah, meth. It's so funny.

There's r slash met where they talk about like how they hit it, how they have to hide and stuff. And anytime someone's like, I think I'm getting off of it. I think I'm leaving guys. Everyone else is like, boo, you suck. It's like a weird level of community. Yeah. You're not going to abandon us. Are you? Yeah. Uh, anyway, um, but back to this guy who's doing propane and gasoline, he did say he stopped using drugs except for tobacco as it messed with his religion and practices.

This obviously all paints Damien as a very unstable person with violent tendencies and urges. His mental health issues are all documented through psychological evaluations and are available to the public. Another interesting aspect of Damien is that of the alibi. Damien is quoted as saying, quote, at that time, the police say the murders took place. I was actually on the phone with three different people. The problem was my attorneys never called them to the stand. However, Damien,

It is posited that they weren't called because it would have exposed Damien's alibi as a lie.

Damien claimed that he talked to Holly George during that evening. However, she claimed that they spoke much earlier in the afternoon, around 3 p.m. Yeah, oh, by the way, I'm pretty sure the police claimed that the murders took place between 6.30 or, sorry, 6 p.m., sometime between 6 p.m. and, I think, 8 p.m., roughly. Okay. Just from the, you know, what do you call it, when they examined the body.

Autopsy? Yeah, autopsy report. Damien also claimed that he had spoken to Heather Clea during that evening. However, she claimed that she had been unable to reach him until 10.30pm and further added that Holly had told her that Damien had been out walking around.

Damien's girlfriend, Dominique Teer, said she last saw Damien around 5 to 5.30 and that she didn't speak with him until 10 p.m. that night. And finally, Jennifer Bearden told police that she had called Jason's home between 4.15 and 5.30, where she then talked to Jason and Damien for 20 minutes. Damien told her that he and Jason were going somewhere and to call him back at 8 p.m.,

However, when Bearden called Damien's house at 8 p.m., only his grandmother answered and she told Bearden that Damien wasn't there. Bearden told police that she only reached Damien around 9.20 p.m. Jesse had no alibi either and Jason Baldwin attempted to get his brother and friend, Ken Watkins, to lie for him by creating an alibi. However, this went nowhere.

2008, Slyer said that he couldn't find a reliable alibi witness for Jason. So all three seemingly had no alibi during the four to five hours that coincided with the murders. That's when that is absolutely very interesting. It's something that I see glossed over a lot. It's kind of suspicious. Now, I will say that the lack of an alibi alone doesn't

No, but it's all three of them not having an alibi as well as the amount of time where they're unaccounted for. But it is suspicious. And it's also like several of them tried to lie about it like very clearly. It's also at the same time though it's like okay for like the first eight hours of every day

you normally i'm just home alone right like working on videos doing that's what you say you could be out murdering apparently exactly yeah so what happens if the police come they're like where were you yesterday from 10 a.m to lunch i'd be like at home and they're like do you have anyone to prove it i'm like no like i was just at home it is a scary concept not having an alibi and knowing yeah i can't imagine being in that situation where like they're like do you have an alibi for this time

And you're like, fuck, I was at home in my underwear watching reruns of American Dad. Exactly. What do you do? It's like, what were you doing that time? And I'm like, nothing because I was at home in my underwear watching. Yeah. The good thing is, though, you should have enough cameras around your house that should like,

secretly record you. They should show that I didn't leave, I guess. But if I'm just inside all day, the police could be like, well, maybe you, I don't know, crawl through a window or something. I guess you could, like, say you're sitting there and you're, like, Googling stuff. You could, like, request that your ISP, your internet service provider or something, sends those records that shows you were at home on a computer. Yeah, I suppose. Maybe. But then I guess the police could also argue that could be anyone. Like, there could be someone else doing that.

It's a likely story. You played Escape from Tarkov for 14 hours straight. Look at my Steam profile. Don't make this worse than it has to be. Yes, I was.

Yeah, it's definitely a scary concept, though. Not being able to prove that you weren't where you say you were or whatever. Yeah, especially because you also got to remember this is the 90s. There'd be no way to prove that, like internet browsing or anything. But nowadays, you are right. It would be a little bit easier, hypothetically. Isn't the NSA watching me? Don't they have a camera on me at all times? Can't they test the file? They've got a whole file on you. Don't worry, you're fine. They know exactly where you are. Ask my agent who watches me

Once again, sat naked in my underwear playing Escape from Dark Hall for 14 hours. That's all it is, like 12 hours a day. Yeah, we subpoena him and call him up to the stand. So I attest that he was there in his underwear for 12 hours straight playing Taco Bell. Let the record show, he sat there unmoving, went to the bathroom twice, and grunted four times. Other than that, catatonic completely. Completely good. But yeah, sorry, but

But yeah, I mean, for me, that is a pretty big point that they were all three unaccounted for. Yeah, there's no alibi. The exact three period of time. And it's also like, I could buy it if they didn't then lie about it. Like Damien's own lawyers didn't bring the alibis up, like these people that he claimed he talked to, because each of those persons testified that they didn't talk to him at the time that he said they did. That's pretty big for me. What makes it most suspicious to me is like,

You it's one thing to be like, no, I don't have an alibi. It's another to try to get your friends to lie about an alibi. Mm hmm.

That's especially suspicious. It's very suspicious. There was a... This isn't in here, but this is an anecdote about Jesse Miskelley. Apparently, there was a testimony that he was at a wrestling event at the time of the murders, and some people corroborated that, but it was later found out that that was either misrepresented by those giving the alibi, or it was... Like, they misremembered the date, basically, because there were pictures of that event from earlier on, basically, not on that day. So...

That's up for debate as well. Interesting. Okay. Just want to throw that in. Damien has also been shown to have lied in several interviews. For example, in a Larry King interview in 2010, he claimed, quote, I live 15 miles away from West Memphis and the crime scene when he actually lived in a trailer park in West Memphis, which was less than two miles away from the crime scene.

Another such interesting lie is that Damien claimed, again in 2010, that I wasn't familiar with Robin Hood Hills before the murders. It was a residential area and I only went to West Memphis to go to Walmart and stuff. However, in 1994, he answered that question by saying that he visited Robin Hood Hills two, three times a week, probably more.

He also told Piers Morgan that the prison had forced him to eat with his hands. Upon release, quote, he had to learn to use a fork again, which detractors point to as evidence that Damien is not the most honest person ever. I mean, yeah, it's been well established that he has like multiple mental illnesses. I don't even know if he's aware that he's lying all the time. It's probably within reason to say if he is, then he's a compulsive liar, which again, Damien is definitely the type of person to,

murder somebody um and he's not trustworthy not a good guy or anything like that but

Without other stuff stacked behind him, that doesn't necessarily mean he committed the murders. Yes. Like I said earlier, I could see him being the murderer, and that's why I don't fault people for thinking that they are potentially still guilty. And as I said, my bias leans towards that as well. But again, there's just not enough evidence for me to say definitively that they are guilty and deserved to be convicted. They needed to be more...

more physical evidence and such in order to bolster that claim, in my opinion. Because it needs to be beyond a shadow of doubt or whatever for that kind of stuff. Yeah. It's like, I don't know, it provides reason but not evidence. Yeah. Real quick, a quick word from our sponsors of this episode. Over to me.

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So what about Jesse's past? While Damien may have had a more complex dark past, Jesse wasn't clean either. He was known to be a bit of a hothead and would often get into fights at school and would often bully kids younger than him. He eventually dropped out of school and in the police interrogations he talked about animal cruelty, things like killing a dog, knowing how to handle the meat and eating part of the leg. He said that this was all to get into a cult and if you couldn't do that, you couldn't join the cult.

So we have another transcript here. I'll read from Gitchell if you want to go for Jesse. Okay, so Officer Gitchell says, okay, now you have participated in this cult, right? Yes. How long have you been involved in it? I've been in it for about three months. Okay, what is, tell me some of the things that you all do typically in the woods as being in this cult. We go out, kill dogs and stuff, then carry girls out there. What do you do with the girls when you're out there?

We screw them and stuff. Does everybody takes a turn?

everybody and we have an orgy and stuff like that okay i don't i don't appreciate you all orchestrating the first half of the document to be like well jesse was a misunderstood guy that the police like even if he's making this stuff up this is pretty rough well that's what i was saying last week yeah like the stuff that this is your fault here we got her here we can corner her now this is you're doing uh yeah killing a dog

It's too far. I hate that. I hate that. Did he actually do... Is there any evidence he did this stuff besides what he's saying right here? There is evidence that there were dog sacrifices, yes. Okay, well that's pretty... I would say that's pretty big reason, dog sacrifices, to say that some of this cult in the woods, maybe even tying up girls stuff, would be... I don't know if they tied up the girls, just...

for clarification, they just, well, they sacrifice dogs. That's pretty, that's pretty outside of the realm of what most people would do. If I want to say the evidence for this, and we might get into it later in the document, I'm not sure is that there was a dog skull found, I believe in, um, Damien's bedroom. Yes. Okay. Well, okay. Yeah. What, what's your, what's your thought? What's your thought? Well, that's different. That's different than evidence of dog sacrifice.

So you think that's not enough with Jesse saying that we go after those? No, I don't think it is because Damien is a self-proclaimed Wiccan. And a big thing is a lot of their rituals and stuff is taking bird bones or taking animal pieces and sprinkling them around or appealing to the positive spirits inside of them and stuff like that.

there's nothing to say that Damien didn't find a dead animal and again, Damien has a lot of issues. There's nothing to say Damien didn't find a dead animal and keep the skull for like part of his Wiccan practices. That's very different from finding and killing a dog, right? Yeah.

But then we- Like I've got friends who they'll go out in the woods. Jesse still said, we go out and kill dogs and stuff. And this wasn't such a thing where Gitchell or Detective Gitchell led him to say that either. You're right. You know what? You're right. You're right. He did come up with that one on his own. He wasn't pushed into it. So I would say that the dog skull is circumstantial evidence then. I would. Yes.

An interesting note on this particular police confession is that during the conversation, Jesse recalls that Damien and Jason were potentially fooling around in the water at the hills just before the murders took place. Okay, so this is Detective Ridge again.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

You sound like more of a detective than I do. Well, I'm trying to throw like a southern drawl into it. Like, they took turns going up under the water. Are you doing that so no one can clip your voice saying potentially compromising things in a second? Well, I was doing it to get into the character, but now that you've said that, I'm going to throw the voice even harder. That's a good point. They took turns going up under the water. Going up under the water. What were they doing up under the water?

They're set so far away, they're in the water. I'd say about five to ten seconds. They come up and then the other one would go down. I'm not quite sure what that means. I know what it means. You know exactly what it means. Does it mean blowjobs under the water? Is that what it means? Yes, that's what it means. Okay, so they were just messing around in the water. They called for these boys to come over there.

Yeah, they seen them boys. Then they hollered. Damien said, Hey, little boys come up there. Did they call them by name? No, they just hollered at him. They slowed down. Where did the boys put their bikes? Close to right where there before you come in and they laid them down right there. And after I left, I don't know what they done with the box.

Okay. So that's about, so they're saying that, or sorry, Jesse is claiming that they were fooling around in the water and then the, you know, the victims, the boys showed up and that's when, uh, Damien and Jason called them over to the lake or the little water or waterway, whatever it was. So on the case, sorry, on the, the case against podcast, they detail situations where Jesse was threatening and abusive towards others, like hitting a girl who had previously spread a rumor about

that insinuated that he was sexually active with her, she was only 13. And another where a boy who was 14 at the time alleged that in 1992, he had heard Jesse, Damien and Jason and other friends coming up from behind him when Jesse shoved the boy and then threatened him with a knife pressed against his throat. Again, these alleged events suddenly also portray Jesse as being a violent and unstable teenager with his own mental issues.

Jesse confessed a total of five times across different occasions, including in front of his own lawyer, who was basically begging him to shut up. And I've read all the transcripts for each of these, what do you call them, confessions. And yeah, the lawyer was basically in a lawyerly way, basically trying to get him to shut up desperately during that confession. So it is quite odd.

And this is just the five main confessions. Apparently he had confessed multiple times before that to friends. He had confessed multiple times after that to soulmates. There was even an anecdote that we found very late into the research process where a fan, not a fan, an ardent defender of the West Memphis Three visited Jesse in prison and wrote to him a lot. And she, through that process, actually became

convinced that they were guilty and stopped talking to Jesse because he said something that like really like tipped her off basically and she she just stopped she left the internet basically at that point

Which is very interesting, in my opinion. So the five confessions, the five main confessions, though, are June 3rd, 1993, which is the first recorded confession. Then again, June 3rd, 1993, which is after the initial confession. Miss Kelly gave another statement when police took him to different locations related to the crime. This is the confession that is broadly criticized for the alleged coercion. And then the investigators needed to do that second confession or interrogation with Jesse.

because when they took his first confession to the judge presiding over the situation at the time to receive a warrant to investigate the West Memphis Three's premises and things like that, the judge said that there wasn't enough evidence or there were components of the first confession that didn't line up. So he asked them to

you know, do the second interrogation to clear things up, which they did, and then they were successfully able to get the warrant. But this is the one that's very criticized for the coercive elements of it. And if you read through it, yeah, the cops are definitely suggesting or using suggestion to coerce certain elements out of Jesse, probably in order to make sure that the story lined up with facts so that they could then get the warrant through the judge, which

Depends on how you look at it. Yeah, a very sketchy situation and probably another point of evidence against the West Memphis Police Department for being very bad at their jobs.

The third confession is February 4th, 1994, which is where Miss Kelly briefly confessed again to his own lawyer. Then again on February 8th, 1994, which was right before his trial, he confessed again to police detectives while in the presence of his attorney, Dan Stidham. This was not used in court. And then August 19th, 1994, after being convicted, Miss Kelly confessed yet again to investigators while in the car transporting him to prison.

So a lot of confessions and again, a lot of people think that because of his low IQ, what was his IQ, Akira? Something like in the 70s? Yeah, I think it was 76.

Yeah. I remember there were multiple IQ tests done and I did see some rumblings online about how the lawyer may have advised him of the consequences of scoring lower on the IQ test, as in you would be able to avoid the death penalty. So that may have impacted him potentially faking the IQ test, but I've seen enough people...

talking about how he's very actually visibly mentally deficient when they're talking to him and stuff. So I believe that he's a low IQ individual. I've seen reports of him being in the 70s and 80s, which is still well below average. So yeah, I still agree that he's a low IQ individual. And people insinuate that due to that, the coercive elements of the interrogations would have been more successful because he didn't have the brain faculty available to kind of

uh think rationally basically so people people use that uh against these five confessions which i don't know i don't know how i feel about it again i do think that there was suggestive elements like i said used by the police i don't think they did a good job but again he confessed he confessed five times and there were a lot of details in there that line up with things uh how do you feel about it isaiah

I don't know. It's so hard, isn't it? The stuff about the animal sacrifices and stuff, like, sure, it could have been suggested to him that he needs to do those things because that was the case. Sure, it just could have been mentally unwell. I don't know. Like you said at the beginning, there's so much circumstantial evidence that maybe... I don't know. It's so difficult to come to an actual conclusion about. Yep, so...

The fact of the matter is there are a lot of inconsistencies in information. Miss Kelly undeniably gets wrong across these confessions, and this is why the police had to go back and

kind of re-interrogate him. For example, Miss Kelly had claimed that the victims had been sexually assaulted in the first couple of confessions, but he then changes its element of the story in the August 19th confession. So we're going to show this comparison right here. Confession one, detective Ridge says, okay, what occurred while you were there? And then Miss Kelly replies,

When I was there, I saw Damien hit this one, hit this one boy real bad. And then he started screwing him and stuff. And then we jumped to Confession 5, which was seven months later. Wait, June. Well, about a year later. Confession 5. Detective Davis, a different detective, says, Okay, you said that he was going to screw the little boy or stick his penis in his behind. What did you see Damien do?

They didn't do it. He was going to do it, then they didn't. Okay, so yeah, a pretty big inconsistency there across confessions. Big difference. I will say both of those imply that in both versions of the confession there is some sexual violence. If he was about to do it, then didn't or something. That's not like open and shut two different stories. Yeah, but there are examples of these inconsistencies throughout the confessions, and a lot of them can be...

you know, thought of like you just said, basically like maybe it's just Jesse misremembering or wording things incorrectly. Like he still knows what happened, but it's, it's impossible for him to be sure. So then there's different recountings of events for him. Uh, I will note he was also heavily drunk at the time. Uh,

uh, according to himself. So that could also change things. Regardless, it would take a very long time, uh, to go line by line through the interrogations and confessions to pinpoint each inconsistency. But this is to say that they obviously do exist. And there is certainly evidence of police guiding Jesse to the answers that they wanted, particularly in those first two confessions, uh, whether or not this means that Jesse is innocent is just, it's, it's impossible to say. And so difficult, uh,

Is it possible that his inconsistencies are due to a murderer grappling with his guilt or desperate desire to receive a lighter sentence? Of course. Is it possible that Jesse is a borderline mentally handicapped individual who was taken advantage of by law enforcement and due to his misunderstanding of how the legal world operates, confessed to something he wasn't a part of five times because of that? Also definitely impossible. It's just... It's so impossible to know. I've flip-flopped between both overreactions

over and over again. I just don't know.

Jesse recanted, oh, sorry. However, one additional interesting note on Jesse and his many confessions is that on February 8th, during his confession to his attorney, so during confession four, he actually offered proof that he had witnessed the murders. He told his attorney, Stidham, that he was drunk on whiskey during the murders and that they could find the broken bottle on the ground under a bridge in West Memphis. He claimed he had smashed the bottle there after leaving the crime scene out of anger for what he had witnessed.

Stidham claimed that he would be forced to believe his client's confession if the bottle was found. Stidham, West Memphis Police Department, and the prosecutors drove to the location and...

They found the broken whiskey bottle in the exact area that Jesse claimed it would be. Whether or not this serves as proof of his confession being accurate is up to you, of course. Each person will have a different belief about these confessions and whether or not they hold up to scrutiny. The only way for you to really be able to have a full and complete understanding of them, and even then you still won't because I don't, is to read the transcript for each of them and come to your own conclusion.

Uh, that's, uh, yeah, him with the bottle is interesting. Like he, he obviously had material, like that's such a weird thing to say. If you go here, you'll find a bottle that I smashed and they went there and it was the exact brand of whiskey. That's pretty interesting. Right.

Was it the same brand he said it would be? Yes. Everything was exactly as he had said it. Yeah, there was a liquor store nearby that they took the shards to and double checked against a new clean bottle and it matched. I mean, it's possible that he broke the bottle on a different day. But again, why would you use that? The point is Jesse's trying desperately to prove that he's confessing it legit.

If anyone of... Well, he would be trying to prove the confessions legit because he's getting... Wait, did he get a plea deal? Was he told he was getting a plea deal? No, no. He didn't receive... This was after he was found guilty, I believe. Okay, then maybe... I don't know why I would fake it then. You're right. Confession 4... No, sorry. Confession 4 is before the trial. Okay. But... So... I don't know, man. I don't know. If you...

if any one of these things was by themselves, like if there's just the same whiskey ball, I'll be like, okay, that could be a coincidence. You know, like I could, I could name like half the bridges around town and say, there's probably a bottle of fireball exactly, you know, random because people go down there and drink, but it's like it in combination with so many other things. There's so many, like you said, so much circumstantial. And if he was there, if he was there getting drunk and smashed the whiskey bottle, and that means he was there on that day to witness the,

what these two were doing. It's like, okay, well, why would he... If all of that was true, and if he seems to be reliable there, then why make up that these two people murdered these three boys, right? Yeah. Again, I don't understand the point of him desperately trying to prove the veracity of his claims, unless he genuinely felt remorseful and guilty for what he did. Now I aim my anger at Kira for deciding to...

make the first document so apologetic. Hey, I gotta keep you on your toes. Yeah. Uh-huh. The first, that first document was like, they coerced this mentally ill man into this innocent boy and now it's like, well, actually, you're wrong. Actually. When you first look into it, you find all this information and then you dive deeper and you find so much more. So,

To white knight for my queen over here, there really is so many people online that fervently push the ideas that they're innocent. It's just so many conflicting views and so much evidence that they point to. It is overwhelming. And it's a lot of information to dive deep into. And what we're trying to do here is provide both sides of the coin as best we can. Like you said, we offered a pretty...

and innocent based argument in the first episode. And now we're kind of doubling back to offer the alternative viewpoint. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So Jesse recanted shortly after every single time he confessed, from the very first one where he told his family he'd been forced by the police to tell the story he had told, to saying the officers in the car of the fifth confession said that they couldn't use the information against him in court. He then consistently over many years has claimed that all of his confessions were false. It's a complicated web of confession, recanting, confession, recanting.

His confessions did not seem to stop, however, as a letter dated October 24th, 1994 was sent to the prosecutor by Jesse Selmay claiming that Jesse would not stop confessing to him. Would you like to read this quote?

Yeah, so, Mr. Brent Davis, I am forwarding this letter to your office simply because you were the only prosecuting attorney that I was able to get the address of. After reading this, I hope you will bring it to the attention of the appropriate persons. I may have some useful information for the prosecution in the upcoming appeal of Jesse Miss Kelly, who, as you may know, is one of the three defendants accused of murdering the three young boys in West Memphis.

I have known Ms. Kelly since June 9th, 1994. We are currently housed together in the ADC Diagnostic Unit Special Programs Unit. At several different occasions, Ms. Kelly and I have talked extensively about many facts of the case. Among them, Ms. Kelly told me that they, the defendants, cut the testicles of one of the children off.

Which wasn't corroborated by the autopsy report, by the way. Wasn't there some kind of mutilation to them, though? There was mutilation to the penis. Kira, can you fact check me here? I'm pretty sure that it was just the penis, though. Let me double check. You can continue reading while she has a look. Well, that wouldn't change it because if...

Jesse's story is that he walked away as it was happening. Maybe he thought they were doing that. And then it was just a different injury. Yeah. Jason Baldwin, one of the defendants had sex with one of the children after he had been killed and that Damien Echols, one of the defendants said a prayer before they threw the boys in a ditch. Miss Kelly also told me that they, the defendants left a nightgown at the scene so that it would look like women had committed the murder and committed the crime.

He says now that he is trying to blame the parents of one of the children. Ms. Kelly also told me that his confession is the only evidence that the prosecution has, that he and his attorney are trying to have that dismissed. I once asked Ms. Kelly what were the names of the three boys. He laughed for some time and then said he could only remember one of them. Mr. Davis, please do everything in your power to keep Ms. Kelly behind bars for the rest of his life. He's a very cold, morbid person. Thank you for your time. Michael Johnson.

Don't know. It could just be a fake, like, you know, it could be anything. So I could see on Oxygen official site that the genitals are badly mutilated, essentially castrated. So I can see...

Yeah, he screwed him in the penis and mutilated. That's what's coming up. Okay, so saying castrated is probably, that's like next door to it. That's fine. If it's close enough, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And like you said, he was drunk at the time. Jesse claims that he was very drunk at the time and also he left during the ordeal. Like he wasn't there for most of it. So he could have seen it as he was leaving and that's what his brain filled in. The gaps, basically. Yeah.

I don't know. Also, as a very important addendum to last week's episode, we stated that Jesse Miskelley had confessed after a 12-hour long interrogation. This was incorrect. He had arrived... And this is something that I see online in the pro-innocent camp a lot, is people pointing to the 12 hours. I'm not sure where this started from, but it's entirely incorrect. I read the timesheets provided by the police in the hard evidence, like, you know,

you know, hard evidence files. Basically that's a repository online of all of them. Like these are police documents proven. Uh, he had arrived at the police station at 10 AM to undergo the polygraph test and provide samples for the investigation. And then at a 11 AM, um,

Sorry, 11.56 to 12.30 p.m., he took the polygraph test, but it was only at 12.40 p.m. that the police interrogation began after the polygraph test had returned an indication that Jesse was lying or being deceptive. He then confessed at 2.20 p.m., that first confession, and the police investigators claimed that only around two hours, roughly, of that time was interrogation.

This can be shown below and on screen right now, just so people don't claim that we're lying, that show the timestamped police document. This throws into question the claim that the 12 hours of intense police grilling had a material impact on Jesse as a 12-hour interrogation simply did not happen, as Jesse confessed relatively quickly after failing the 30-minute long polygraph test.

That's definitely, this was when my brain started flipping over to the bias that they're potentially guilty. Because I had seen that claim of the 12-hour long interrogation all over the internet. And if that's the kind of evidence that that side is pushing, and it's just demonstrably wrong, as proven by police documents, it definitely threw a lot of things into question for me.

um yeah yeah very very interesting yeah weird so all right on to jason baldwin the third suspect yes jason also had a past with the police starting when he was 12 he along with a group of other boys including his brother broke into a garage where cars were being stored they went on to break windows to jump on the cars badly damaging them two men caught them in the act to call the police who arrested them for breaking and entering and causing mischief

A few years later, when he was 15, he was again arrested for stealing around $7 worth of snacks from a nearby store. Life at home was not a great one for Jason either. His mother was dealing with several mental issues and his father, who was mainly absent from his life, had just reentered the picture. Jason's mother attempted suicide around this time and Jason was the one to find her and keep her alive while the paramedics were on route. That is rough. That's rough. Yeah.

In other writings, Jason had talked about bottling up anger and then exploding, fighting, and choking his younger brother. He was quite antisocial, angry, and had begun to adopt tendencies from Damien, who he saw as a cool figure. He was still in school at the time of the arrest and was seen as a relatively high achiever. There doesn't seem to be much else available on Jason Baldwin. However, a necklace was found in Damien's possession that was found to have blood on it.

Test proved that the DNA was consistent with Damien and Jason, as well as Stevie Branch, one of the victims. Wait, they found a necklace on him that had the blood from one of the boys on it? The same blood type, which is like 11% of the population. Again, circumstantial, but in combination with everything else. Yeah.

However, this was discovered too late to be admitted in the eventual trial and the defense during conversation with the prosecution and judge about whether or not that should be allowed into the trial. Contested that the fact Jason and Stevie had the same blood type as well as 11% of the population. Okay. What I just asked, uh, indeed each other arguing that this didn't appear to be relevant to the case saying, I think it's our position that if it's Jason Baldwin's, if it's consistent with DNA with Jason Baldwin and also branch that it may be not relevant at all.

Part of our defense in this matter would be that sometime during the time period, approximately a month or two before the arrest, that besides my client, Eccles, having access to this pendant, that also Jason Baldwin had access to this pendant. If that is indeed Jason Baldwin's blood on this pendant and not Stevie Branch's, then this evidence is of no value at all and not relevant. It should be excluded and not considered by the jury at all.

So that was Defense's argument. Their argument was basically because the DNA evidence shows that the blood type on the pendant is conclusive with both Jason Baldwin and also Stevie Branch because they had the same blood type. It wasn't a very specific blood type DNA match because they didn't have the ability to do that. So it could just be his own blood. It could have been Jason Baldwin's blood. It could have just been his. Which is what their argument was because Jason was around the pendant.

pendant for the few months before that it's not recommended. Okay, I see. Gotcha. Alright, so now we are on to the trials. Would you like me to take this part or you? Yeah, you can take it. I like your voice. Alright, so...

Oh, thanks, sweetie. Okay, we've now gone over the case for and against the Memphis Three. Of course, there are other details that are impossible to fit in, so we certainly recommend watching some further series and doing some independent research into the case, as you'll likely come to your own conclusion about each piece of evidence. Now, however, it's time to go over the criminal trials. Starting with Jesse Miskelley, as he was to present in front of a jury first.

The jury was made up of five men and seven women, with Jesse represented by attorney Dan Stidham. When he first looked over the case, Dan Stidham claimed that he could immediately see how there were some elements of police mishandling.

In his book that only came out around a year and a half ago, Dan describes himself at the time as a young lawyer unaware of its strength and the immutable, unpredictable eddies that would forever change my life and my view of the law. What a douchebag. I'm sorry. I don't know the man, but that's a pretty douchey way of describing yourself. That way, describing, describing the trial that way, you're saying?

Well, he says he's a young lawyer unaware of its strength and the immutable, unpredictable eddies that would forever... Yeah, I guess he's describing the trial. Could you imagine being a young lawyer and going into all of this? Yeah. Oh, it'd be insane. Yeah, it would be. It'd be like the... Wasn't one of the people on the OJ trial like a new...

Like a fresh attorney who was under the other one. Like that would be ridiculous. Yes, very stressful. But also, like he says here, like you're immediately thrown into a case that's going to change your entire life immediately and put you up into the history books, basically. So yeah, stressful, but also massively life changing. What lawyers want.

Yeah. Jesse tried to recant his confession, but it did not matter, as the prosecution argued that the jury should instead see Jesse as a man terrified to go to jail and willing to say anything to avoid that fate. Dan stated that the police had a feeling of overwhelming pressure to arrest and solve the case, hence the tunnel vision on Jesse, Damien, and Jason.

The defense's argument was that Jesse was scared and felt threatened in the interrogation, and that is why he confessed. Yeah, I want to also throw in here, again, read the transcripts, there were nothing, and Jesse, I don't think, even claims that the police threatened him at all. Like, there was a case that you referenced, I think, last week, where someone did, or there was many such cases, of someone confessing under duress, basically, due to police threats and stuff like them saying, if you

If you confess, we won't throw the death penalty on you or something like that. There's many such cases of that. Nothing like that happened in this from what I read through anywhere.

There's a quote here from Jesse Miskelley during the trial on the interrogation. He says, "I kept telling Inspector Gitchell and Detective Ridge I didn't know who did it. I just knew of it, what my friend had told me. But they kept hollering at me. They kept saying that they knew I had something to do with it because other people had told them. After I told them what the three boys were wearing, Gary Gitchell told me, 'Was any of them tied up?' That's when I went along with him. I repeated what he told me. I said, 'Yes, they were tied up.' He asked, 'What was they tied up with?'

I told him a rope. He got mad. He told me, God damn it, Jesse, don't mess with me. He said, no, they was tied up with shoestrings. I had to go through the story again until I got it right. They hollered at me until I got it right. So whatever he was telling me, I started telling him back, but I figured something was wrong because if I'd have killed him, I'd have known how I'd done it. Which, yeah, I mean, it's a compelling argument for sure. That's compelling until he came up with the whiskey bottle detail. Yes, yes, again, it's so difficult. Oh man, so difficult.

Because it does, again, the police interrogation is suggestive. Yeah, yeah. Defense brought to the stand a social psychologist, Dr. Richard Offshee, to explain the concept of police coercion. This was debated in court with the prosecution arguing that the jury should not hear about it. Offshee thought the confession came out of concern. It was for the jury to decide.

His testimony was eventually allowed, with Offshe saying that Ms. Kelly seemed to have been coerced into giving an overall false statement as his low self-confidence and intelligence made him a susceptible target. The police hadn't beaten up Jesse or abused him in any material way, so the prosecution tried to downplay the coercion as just being a few leading questions. At the end, the jury came back with their answer, guilty on all three charges.

He was sentenced to life without parole plus 40 years. This verdict was based largely on his own confessions as there was no compelling physical evidence linking him to the crime. Yeah, which again...

I will stand on the point. How is there no physical evidence? Yeah, I know. It's because the bodies were submerged in water, which is a pretty good way of clearing physical evidence. And I guess they never found a murder weapon, right? Well, they found branches and stuff, but again, no DNA. I'm pretty sure. That's right, yeah. That they could test at the time. Yeah, but...

man how awful gosh it's such a brutal death I didn't really think about the first part but killing someone with a stick branches yeah beating them bludgeoning them very very over the top brutal which is something that the severity of the crime it feels so strange that it kind of

It doesn't feel like a first timer kind of thing or a teenager's doing this kind of thing. Like it's the kind of crime or the brutality that I would expect from a serial killer. Like someone who's done this a lot. Or someone who's thought about killing things a lot for a long time and supposedly been a part of animal sacrifices. Yeah. Good point. I don't know. It is very brutal. Yeah.

The prosecutor had hoped that they could use Jesse against Damien and Jason in court, but that didn't go exactly to plan. With Jesse recanting his confession, the prosecution was unable to use it. He also declined testifying against them in their trial, giving up the possibility of some sort of future lenience on his sentencing. The prosecution needed to go about the second trial for Damien and Jason in another way.

Yeah, they really had very little about Jason, just in general. Yeah.

He was really only guilty by association and also obviously Jesse's confession, which tied him to it. The confession. But as I just said, or as the document just said, I should say, Jesse's confession was unable to be used against them. It was barred basically as evidence. So there was really nothing on Jason. And I was very surprised that he was held to the same standard as Damien. Except for...

Jesse's account that Jason was there. Yeah, but again, can't be used in this trial. Yeah, can't be used. Insane. When the defense made their statements, they talked about how, yes, the teenagers were weird, not the same as us, and like different things, but this did not make them murderers and there was no evidence to suggest that they had murdered the three victims.

At one point, they tried for a mistrial as Detective Ridge had a slip of the tongue, essentially saying Jesse had confessed. Which, as we said, was barred. It wasn't allowed. Wait, so during the two of their trial, Detective Ridge said that Jesse confessed. It was kind of... So when I was researching it, he didn't necessarily say he confessed. But as he went to say something like... I think the way he said it was, or as Jesse said...

And then he was immediately struck down as the way he was wording it was kind of telling the jury. Everyone was like, up, up, up. Yeah. We'll read through it right now. I've got the exact quote. So Price says, Price, who is Price? I believe he's the...

defense attorney he's the attorney right yeah defense attorney yes yeah uh so price is the defense attorney he says uh and he's examining cross-examining the uh detective at the moment so he says all right so i guess i'm confused at the time you did not take that stick into evidence at the time that y'all recovered the bodies and then ridge detective ridge

No, sir. I didn't take this stick in evidence until the statement of Jesse Miskellian, which he said a stick. Your honor, move for a mistrial, your honor.

So he immediately, yeah. Attorney Price. Well, it sounds for there like Price was trying to lead a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. If you're talking about suggestive or coercive elements, I would say that Price was actually absolutely. Miss trial, false start on the offense. First down penalty, 15 yards. Yes. He didn't. I mean, the detective didn't even say confession or anything along those lines. He basically just said like they took a statement from Jesse Miss Kelly, but the

the attorney, Price, immediately heard Jesse Miskellian and was like, that's my key for a mistrial. Yeah, he didn't. The detective didn't even say anything about that. He said, well, I didn't take the stick into evidence until the statement we got from Jesse. Then I brought it into evidence. Yes. He's not even saying that it has anything to do with it. It's like, why'd you bring the stick into evidence? Oh, because Jesse told me

that there was a stick and it's like like he's not even saying in relation to the murders just why he took a stick into evidence and that's why the mistrial obviously didn't it wasn't approved by the judge yeah the prosecution didn't have a tone sorry it's written in the Australian way is that an Australian way of writing it? that's an Australian yeah we spell it T-O-N that's wild

The prosecution didn't have a ton of evidence and worked hard at creating a specific picture, particularly of Damien. They put emphasis on the way he dressed and his interest, reading Stephen King novels, listening to metal, wearing trench coats. Stephen King novels were so popular in the 90s. Come on. Yeah, but...

like sometimes i feel like i'm too online and i'm like oh horror is the only genre that exists it's the only thing people go with and the normal people are like yeah i'm really into taylor swift now it's like their whole personality i'm like oh maybe i am a weird one no you're not i steven king was mainstream back even back then well definitely back yeah yeah you're right i think

They also point out that Damien carried knives in his coat. They claimed they found, when they searched his home, books and other materials that they related to occult activities. There were also notebooks and writings that appeared dark and could be tied to violent tendencies. They also found a dog skull in his room. While not directly tied to the murders, some link it to the animal abuse he was accused of participating in, as well as the prosecutors seeing it as a link to possible interest in death.

In court, Damien was also seen by some as smug or arrogant. He was confident, defiant, and even blew a kiss to the victim's families, something that was extremely off-putting even if he was potentially innocent. Yeah, he's hard to like. He's very hard to like. Blowing a kiss to the family. Yeah, that's fucked up. Even if you're like decrying your innocence and stuff. Yeah, that is extremely fucked up. He was doing other things as well, like licking his lips at them, and he was just very smug. Yeah.

Yeah, maybe he didn't. The people who say he's innocent say that he... I was emotionally manipulated by Kira in the first half of this video and saying that. Let the record show. No, Kira did a great job. She killed it. Yeah, but at emotionally manipulated. She's good at it. I'll add that to my resume. Emotionally manipulated Wendigan. Thank you, professional gaslighter. Professional gaslighter.

A big part of the prosecution's case, and possibly the only physical evidence, was a knife found near Damien's house. The knife had serrations on it, like a saw blade. It was thought that it could be consistent with the wounds that were on the victims. They determined the knife could have been thrown and discarded into the lake from a pier that was located behind Damien's trailer.

There were suggestions that the knife could have actually been Jason's, but there was no evidence, and instead Damien's ex-girlfriend had testified that it was Damien's knife. She said it was his knife due to the unique compass found on it. Yeah, so you know knives, there's some knives that have like compasses built into the handle at the very bottom? Built-in compass, yeah. Yeah, it's like that. I figured you'd know. Yeah. The knife manufacturer testified that the knife found was ultimately missing its compass, though.

Top of that, the knife's compass socket matches the central wound on Stevie Branch, which was described as a bite mark in other reporting. The so-called bite mark is actually discussed as proof that the West Memphis Three weren't guilty due to the fact that their teeth didn't match the mark. Yeah. However, it is interesting that the compass slot on the knife matches the bite mark contusion. Wait, what? So they stabbed him so hard.

Or they hit him with the hilt of the blade. Yes, exactly. They hit him with the hilt. They hit the victim with the hilt of the blade and it left a contusion that was then misidentified as a potential bite mark. But it seems like it actually matched the compass slot, basically. The back of the knife? I'm not really sure why that wasn't followed up with. I think it might have been discovered too late. Like the bite mark may have been discovered too late. Yeah, later on. Yeah. Hmm.

A man named Dennis Dent, who dated Jason Baldwin's mother for a very short period of time and had lived with the family for a month or two, did claim in the statement that the knife was similar to one he'd seen Jason with and suggested maybe Jason had access to these knives from Damien. It wasn't a smoking gun, however. There wasn't any direct evidence that Damien owned the knife and there was no DNA evidence or blood on the knife to solidly prove it was involved in the murders.

It was a piece of evidence that was compelling yet inclusive. I guess if it was thrown in the water behind his caravan park or whatever, which would have wiped away or cleaned away any of the blood. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It'd be too gone.

Okay, interesting.

Yeah, but you can't match it to the exact candle that he owned or the exact wax that he had. But it was blue candle wax, which isn't the most common substance. How common would blue candle wax realistically be? Yeah. Another piece of circumstantial evidence. There were also fibers, microscopically similar, found on one of the boy's hats that was similar to fibers found in Damien's trailer.

They then brought in Dr. Dale Griffiths, a quote, cult expert, and this turned out to be a pretty powerful for the prosecution. Griffiths saw every part of this case as being connected to a cult ritual. He pointed out that the murders had taken place four days after Beltane, a pagan holiday. The day after, May 6th, was also a full moon. He talked about the significance of the murders taking place near water, as this could be used in a cult baptism.

There were also the number three and its alleged importance in satanic practices. In Christianity, three represents the Holy Trinity, and occult or satanic groups tend to invert Christian symbols as an act of defiance or blasphemy. Additionally, in witchcraft, the rule of three suggests that whatever energy a person puts into the world returns to them threefold. Hmm.

He also spoke about the importance of blood and life force in these rituals and how those who take the blood want their victim to be as young and innocent as possible. This entire idea of a ritual murder formed the basis for the supposed motive of the murders, something easily understandable to the jury given the prevalence of satanic panic in media, which we've already discussed. Yeah, so what's interesting to me is that this motive, let's say, uh...

It speaks to a level of determination or predetermination that I don't think existed because as Jesse testified or as Jesse confessed, they were fooling around in the lake and then the three boys showed up and then they just called them over, basically. Even in that particular confession, it seemed like a very spontaneous killing. Yeah, they were just there. Yeah. I mean, maybe they knew that the kids rode their bikes through there. Maybe they were...

determined that okay whoever comes by we're gonna it's a lot to leave up to fate if you're if you're coming at this from a satanic kind of uh you know ritualistic ritual yeah um so it's possible that like how often did the boy we probably don't have evidence for this but how often did those kids go through there um do you know off the top of your head do you i don't think you don't you don't need to

Yeah, I don't think that if... Anything exactly, but it seems like them going around on their bikes in their area in general was a very often thing. Yeah, common occurrence because they lived in the neighborhood. Because if it was every evening, then you could be like, okay, we're going to wait for them to come down there today. Yeah, knowing that they're on their way. And we'll wave them over. Yeah, yeah. And remember there was that testimony or the accusation from one of the other younger kids who had known the three...

the three victims who said that they would often go to that area to watch homosexual orgies in the woods, basically. Remember that strange claim? Yeah. Yeah. So I do remember that. Seems like a hotspot for the kids to kind of, you know, ride through and stuff like that. So yes, it's possible that the West Memphis three in Jesse's confession knew that they would ride through there. I don't, I don't know. I don't know. If,

When he was cross-examined, it turned out that Griffiths wasn't exactly a proper doctor. He had filled in a mail order for his credentials to a college that later got shut down and he never actually took any classes. That's good enough for me.

There were a few more additional shocking testimonies which ended up resulting in a guilty verdict. A witness who had previously shared a cell with Jason in prison told the court that Jason had confessed to him. It's a pretty graphic description. You can take the question then because the answers are pretty graphic.

Did you have occasion again while you were in the detention facility to ask him, was he involved in the murders of the three eight-year-olds? Yes, I think it was like, oh, so this answer is from the witness. Yes, I think it was like the next day. I believe it was the next day.

Can you tell me what was going on? What was happening at the time that occurred? Well, me and Jason Baldwin were scrapping up the cards to go into our sales for lunch because they make us go into our sales for lunch. We were scraping up the cards. I said, just between me and you, did you do it? I won't say a word. He said yes, and he went into detail about it. Were there other people at the table picking cards up at that point? No, it was just me and Jason.

You said he went into detail. What did he tell you? He told me how he dismembered the kids. I don't exactly know how many kids. He just said he dismembered them. He sucked the... And this is graphic for people listening. He sucked the blood from the penis and scrotum and put the balls in his mouth. And then that's the end of the important part of the testimony. Well, that explains... I was thinking to myself, I'm like, if this guy...

was so big on like sucking drinking blood and stuff why didn't he drink the blood of these kids he killed but there it is that would tie that together um oh man those horrible men yeah i mean we lose the fact that three young eight-year-olds yeah eight-year-olds were killed well yeah that's so well before that time it's awful it's so tragic

And he says that Jason had said this in prison? Yes, so this is about Jason Baldwin, which is the guy that we have very little about. But yeah, again, this is a case of Jason Baldwin basically also confessing to a witness, which is something that Jesse Miskelley was also often doing.

Which I mean, like, unless this guy got a plea deal out of it, I don't know why this random guy would lie about it. Jason confronting him and saying that. So it's not looking good for him. If I had to say, yeah. Oh man. That's so sad. Not evidence on its, not evidence on its own, but once again, circumstantial. Yeah. This was vital as the case against Jason was weak and he had also refused to testify against Damien for a shorter sentence, much like Jesse.

prosecution also brought in two girls who apparently overheard Damien talking about the murders at a local sports game claiming quote he killed the three little boys and before he turned himself in that he was going to kill two more and he already had one of them picked out and

Damien himself admits to this, that conversation happening, by the way. But he claims that he said it because he knew that they were listening and that he just wanted to kind of like... Freak them out. Yeah, freak them out, basically. Be edgy, yeah. I did it. I killed those kids on the other edge of town. It's just like a thing to mess with. Yeah, so that's what he claims. But it's still a crazy thing to claim. That's a wild thing to say out of pocket, yeah.

When asked by defense about his Wiccan practices, Damien said it just made him closer to nature and that he was definitely not a Satanist and did not believe in human sacrifices. That's something that Satanists and people who human sacrifice would say. I definitely don't do that.

I'm definitely not those two things. Yeah. They asked him why he dressed in black, had odd trinkets, had evil tattoos over his knuckles. And he simply replied that he thought it was cool and he felt he looked good in black and there was nothing more to it, which is possible. But again, circumstantial evidence. When the jury came back with their verdict after writing to clarify, I'm not saying that

wearing black and having tattoos as circumstantial evidence. I'm saying that him talking about being a Wiccan and having like symbols and everything and like supposedly being a part of animal sacrifices, that would be circumstantial evidence. Yes. When the jury came back with their verdict after writing pros and cons for each teenager, which is shown below and shows the jury's thought process about why they found each individual guilty. The families of the boys cheered as Damien and Jason were found guilty.

Jason was sentenced to life without parole and Damien, as his con list was extensively comparative, was sentenced to death. This is all of the important information about the trials. Detractors and people who prescribe innocence to the West Memphis Three will point to the lack of material evidence necessary to convict and people who believe the trial got it right will point to satanic panic excuses as being a weak distraction to what was actually a relatively compelling case against the Three.

However, the trial is just the beginning, and what followed would be a lengthy 20 years of people demanding retrials or pardons, documentaries pushing the innocence of the three, and many alternative theories for who actually murdered the victims if the three were innocent. Yeah, if you scroll down here, we have the pictures of the pros and cons list that the juries used to determine if they should be held guilty or not. And as you can see, Damien's con list is extensive. And at the bottom, where is it? There's

There's a mention of him winking at the jury or the parents basically and how... Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of stuff there. And then Jason's basically is much shorter in comparison because again, they had very little evidence. There's the jailhouse confession, Damien being his best friend, which is not

evidence for me. And then the final match and low self-esteem. I can see why they said Damien was guilty, but I really feel like there needed to be way more evidence on the Jason part. Yeah. Okay, so now we come to kind of the alternative theories and what people who claim that the West Memphis Three... If it wasn't those three, who was it? They kind of throw around these ideas instead.

And there's a lot of strange things that happened after the trials in the case too. Yeah, a lot of strange things. So I'll take John Mark Byers and you can take Terry Hobbs, which are the main ones that we're going to talk about. So John Mark Byers, do you remember John Mark Byers, the father of Christopher Mark Byers? We need to circle back to him to begin talking about the alternative theories. It's easy to see strange behavior and understand that he just lost his stepson, but some things were definitely a little too strange.

During the trials, HBO, you know, creators of such hits as Game of Thrones, were working on a documentary about the case. During filming, John gave the crew a knife that had blood on it. Oh, by the way, this documentary that HBO produced, it's part of a trilogy, or it is a trilogy now, called Paradise Lost. And that's what a lot of people point to as being kind of the most...

compelling case for the West Memphis Three's innocence. But I would argue that there's a lot of bias and things left out in those movies that have kind of portrayed the situation as them being like railroaded by the judicial system and them being innocent.

Other people would argue that it's a completely compelling recounting of events and they are innocent. Whatever. HBO kind of had an incentive, though, in my opinion, to push an innocent bias to the retelling of the events because obviously... It sells better. Exactly. It sells better. They wanted to make a documentary. If it's just a documentary about the case and they're guilty or whatever, that's not going to blow up on the internet. And it did blow up on the internet. Paradise Lost is a very

successful trilogy and really pushed them to their freedom.

He said that he had never, John Mark Byers, had never used the knife, but the crew quickly handed it over to the police when they discovered the blood. His story quickly changed, saying that he actually had used the knife and forgot he accidentally cut himself with it, so the blood was his. This was after he first said he did not know how blood ended up on the knife. He blamed the trials and the stress surrounding their lives for his forgetful memory. That's something that's terrifying to me because I have awful memory even without the stress of a trial and stuff, so...

I'm screwed if I'm ever on the police investigation. Yes, but would you hand the crew a knife that has blood on it? Why did he do that? That's insane. Why would you be like, here's the knife. Here's the murder weapon. It's a... Oops! Clumsy me. When tested, the blood was consistent with the DNA of John Mark and his son.

Christopher Mark Byers. John was also often noted for his strange behavior and his anger was very theatrical. Which, whatever. People are weird. It'd be really funny. Everyone is weird in this story. I mean, not funny, but it'd be kind of funny if, like, John...

had like killed someone completely unrelated. Yeah, completely different. He just murdered someone. Like he was a murderer, but not this murderer. But it was his blood. The DNA was of his own type as well as his son's type. It didn't stop there. Years after the murders, it was discovered in photos that marks on the boys appeared to be bite marks. We've discussed this. It was concluded the bite marks didn't match any of the three teenage boys.

But many found it strange that John Mark had his teeth removed in 1997. So they point to this as... Yeah, he got his entire teeth removed in 1997. There's actually some... There's interesting videos of John Mark Byers talking to supporters of the West Memphis Stray who are kind of...

questioning him about his teeth and when he got them removed and stuff. And he's very defensive. And at one point he actually like pulls out his fake teeth to like hand it to them because they ask him to get it tested and he kind of refuses. And it's just very theatrical and very, you know, he's trying to not intimidate them, but, you know, like here's my teeth and be kind of gross, if you know what I mean. Yeah, off-putting. It's an off-putting kind of conversation.

Yeah, some interesting videos on that. Yeah, so those people, the West Memphis Three, their innocent club, points to him removing his teeth as a sign of him being guilty. And if he had his original teeth, it would have matched the bite marks. Because they keep asking, why don't you give bite impressions to get...

to get it tested and compared. That's such a weird... Why did you just randomly get removed? Did he have like a problem or something? Well, yeah. First he said it was because of medication that he took that ruined his teeth. But then he also said that he had been experiencing dental problems for years. I mean, I've known plenty of people that... Especially when you get older, like there's plenty of people who have replaced their teeth with like dentures and shit.

Yeah, it's just kind of strange, those interactions when you kind of watch them. It's a bit, yeah, just a bit weird. Yeah, but okay, counterpoint, um,

Like, if he's being harassed by the West Memphis Three is Innocent Club a lot. And I have seen this firsthand. These people are very aggressive online about their opinions, for sure. It goes both ways, though. But yeah, I could see them absolutely harassing people that they even remotely suspect are guilty. And I'm sure... Like, again, you got to remember these guys... These people lost their children and stuff and have been dealing with this...

as well for multiple decades. So they would also be upset. Yes. Both parties are very emotional about their position. Yeah. I could absolutely see them being accused that you are your son's killer being a very upsetting situation and you can't escape it. So, yeah. Both sides. Here, take him. Take him to the police. Here's my teeth. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So,

So death also seemingly followed John Mark Baez as in 1996, Melissa Baez, his wife and Christopher's mother died from unknown reasons. The subsequent investigation... It would have been bite marks, would it? Yeah, she had bite marks.

Yeah, well, it was the year before he lost his teeth. He removed his teeth, so maybe he was hiding this one. Oh, that's true, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The subsequent investigation by the coroner was unsuccessful and undetermined was left on her cause of death. It happened in her sleep while she lay next to John Mark. He was investigated and questioned over what happened on the night, but the investigation was inconclusive and no charges were laid against him. Well, hold on, hold on. Yeah.

If my kid was dead and I had people for years be like, did you kill your kid? Did you actually kill your kid? And then my wife dies and then someone says that to me again, I would probably throw my teeth at him. The reaction seems more reasonable now. Yeah. Like all these families went through it. Like it's such a horrible situation. I would probably go crazy as well if I had a kid and then, yeah, I don't know.

John Mark By also I don't believe there was any foul play people do just genuinely die for unknown reasons in their sleep that is a thing that happens especially when you're up there in age and he reported the murder well okay that is a young age yeah that's odd but regardless he reported the death like an hour after it happened he woke up and discovered she was dead and then reported it so it's a very short amount of time don't know

I don't think there's any foul play, but it's up to you. John Mark Byers had been adamant that the West Memphis Three were the murderers. However, he has since changed his tune and now believes them to be innocent. As for his own involvement, he has even less material evidence linking him to the murders than the West Memphis Three. And he also has a solid alibi as he was at home with his wife, now deceased, or at work at the pawn shop during the time of the murders.

So in my eyes, he's got a better alibi than the West Memphis Three. Yeah, I don't think he did it. He's also got less evidence tying himself to it. That's always what's so strange to me about the crew that believe he's innocent. They're so happy to say that the West Memphis Three are innocent, but then they very aggressively lay the blame at people where there is even less evidence available pinning them to the crimes. They'll finger

Finger them basically and say that they did it when there's even less evidence. It seems a bit hypocritical, but whatever. Do you want to take Terry Hobbs? Yeah, I'll take him. So let's jump to Stevie's stepfather, Terry, who came under heavy scrutiny in 2007. A breakthrough came in the case when a hair was discovered around one of the shoelace knots used to bind the victims. This hair did not match Damien, Jesse, or Jason. It was found to be not inconsistent with Terry.

Also, another hair at the crime scene led to one of Terry's friends, a man named David Jacoby. This wasn't a pinpoint accurate discovery as it could basically be matched to about 1.5% of the population in Terry's case and 7% for Jacoby.

while not a smoking gun the hair could not have come from any of the three teenage boys apparently terry and david were also together in the area around the time of the murders but terry and stevie did also live together which would likely cause their dna and hair to be all over each other's belongings naturally yeah

Again, it was potentially compelling evidence, but not something that would make a case. Yeah, if you did like a micro analysis of my clothes, it's got my wife's stuff on it. It's got the dogs. It's got people who've been at the house for a while. Like, it's just... Yeah, this isn't very... I don't think it's very compelling. Whose shoestrings were they tied up with too? It was their own shoes, right? Yes, it was their own shoes. Kid shoes. And remember, each one of them had different knots. Like, they used different knots to bind each individual. Yeah, yeah. Which to me suggests multiple people.

The hair doesn't do anything for me. If it is or isn't. It's also like unrelated, but you heard the stuff lately where they're like, oh, we confirmed who Jack the Ripper is. Have you seen that? A lot of people have been tweeting at me that we need to do an update on that. Well, they did not. They did not confirm anything. They did a mitochondrial DNA test and they found a descendant of one of the suspects who is not eliminated by the DNA test and

And the DNA from Jack the Ripper, quote unquote, that they're using is a handkerchief that some family in Great Britain had passed down for years saying, oh yeah, your great uncle said that he got this off Jack the Ripper because it has some blood on it. That's compelling.

It is double layers of like, that doesn't prove anything. And everyone's like a hundred percent DNA match confirmed. Jack the Ripper. Yeah. It is pretty cool though. I will say that it is pretty cool that we have advanced technology far enough where we can take something from that long ago and, and still accurately determine the DNA on it. That is pretty cool. Yeah. But yeah, it doesn't mean anything. I don't think it doesn't mean anything. Not at all. Conclusive.

100% confirmed though. I'm on board. It was him. Absolutely. 100%. It's this guy, even though it's not. So a quote from David Jacoby said, I did walk near where they had found the kids with Terry Hobbs, but I didn't wear hats back then. My hair could have blown around anywhere. Yeah. I mean, he was also just a visitor to the house. So again, like it could have. Yeah. DNA. Yeah.

Not conclusive enough for me at all. Unless it's an exact match to their exact hair and they can determine that the hair was left there, basically, on the time of the day or whatever when the murders happened. Not enough for me.

We know Terry dropped Pam off at her work at 5 p.m. and drove through the neighborhood to try and spot Stevie. After John Mark called the police, search efforts started around 8.30 and then he went and picked up Pam at 9. But between those few unaccounted for hours, no witness saw Terry nor did he provide a credible alibi.

His neighbors have also insinuated that he could have been the murderer. As Terry said, he did not see the young boys that afternoon, but his neighbor alleged that he had heard him with them around 6.30. Terry and Pam later divorced, which also pushed Pam and her family to come forward with more strange notes on Terry.

Apparently he cleaned the house like top to bottom, which, yeah, that is definitely a bit odd, I will say. I don't know. People do weird things when they're grieving.

Again, not bulletproof or anything. Yeah, I mean, just to me, that is a little bit odd. Yeah, I don't know. They said that his daughter, Amanda, told them that Terry had sexually assaulted her and Stevie. Pam also made a discovery 10 years after the murders of a small pocket knife in Terry's nightstand. The pocket knife had belonged to Stevie, a gift from another family member. Apparently, his pocket knife never left Stevie's side. Pam often wondered where it had gone and why it was not found with him.

His excuse was that he had confiscated it before the murders. So Terry's excuse was that he confiscated it before the murders. But still, why would he not then give that pocket knife back to her within that 10 period time frame? How did it take 10 years to discover that? Okay, so let me process that again. Amanda said that Terry sexually assaulted her. Yeah, that's different. That's like a separate point.

Yeah. And then ten years later, there was a small pocket knife. Yes, ten years after the murder. Pam, the wife of Terry and the mother of Stevie, discovered the small pocket knife in Terry's nightstand. Well, Stevie's dead. Well, hold on, Stevie's dead, so that's why he never gave the pocket knife back. Well, yeah, but like...

He just kept one of Stevie's pocket knives. Pam found it weird that it was never found on him when they were discovered and they tragically died and only found it later in Terry's nightstand. And she found that a bit strange that he never came and gave it to her or told her or anything like that. I see what you're saying. Terry's excuse was that he had confiscated it before the murders.

It is a tad weird. I will say that I can see why people are sus on this guy. I can see why he may have, like, in the moment when everything was happening, not thought about it. But if there was a conversation, possibly, between Pam where she said, I wonder where it went, would that not jog your memory to say, oh, I took it and it's over here? Well, let's say that she never brought it up. It's very weird to me that he, like, never...

10 years is a long time for just to be in a nightstand and him like did he just never go in his nightstand and never see it again until that point possibly sometimes there are things that you just like pop in a drawer and you completely forget about with all the other shit part on top so

I don't know. It's weird to me. However, detractors point to this information only coming out after a bitter divorce with Pam and also the fact that the only evidence available is her hair strands is hair strands that would have been readily available in their home as possible reason for why Terry isn't as compelling as he may seem, at least not conclusively so.

Alongside that, the three separate knots on the victims and different wound patterns indicate to many that there were three different killers as opposed to one. The lack of motive is something the detractors also point to. However, those who believe he may be guilty point to the possibility of Terry being caught by the boys having gay sex at Robin Hood Hill with his friend, which, as discussed last episode, was potentially a gay hookup spot.

Simply conjecture with no tangible evidence supporting the motive. That is really funny to be like, well, if you didn't kill your son, you're gay. Like, if nothing else. No, it's adding them up. You did kill your son, you're gay. Because you are gay. I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. So that's the comment, like people who believe that he's guilty have come up with that motive. I've seen like, that's why he was having gay sex with his friend and that's why both their hairs were on the bodies. Um...

Yeah, I don't know. I think that's definitely more compelling than the first guy with the weird teeth or whatever. Yeah, but neither of them are compelling, I wouldn't say. No, I wouldn't say. I think the police also agree. Otherwise, they would have done an investigation. Although, I guess you don't really do an investigation, right? If the courts have already determined the outcome of the case is the other boys being guilty. I guess I have no incentive to...

Alright, what to believe? With all of this strange evidence coming out over the years, many have changed their views on the West Memphis Three. Pam, the mother of Stevie, said there should be another trial, a proper fair one for the teenagers. If they were found guilty again, great, they'll remain in prison. But if they weren't, they should be released.

Even John Mark, who once said he wanted to do to the teenage boys what they did to the kids, has changed his tune as well. He said he believed that they were innocent and that he would lead the charge for their release. He also openly said he blamed Terry Hobbs and wrote down all of the reasons he thought Terry was guilty, pointing specifically to Terry having no alibi in his inconsistent or false statements.

And Vicki Hutchison, which was the lady who said that she had spent the evening with Damien and Jesse, and who was instrumental in the investigation as the underground reporter at the Witch Orgy. Well, in 2003, she recanted her statement and said plainly that she lied.

every word she every word she said had been a lie she was supposedly scared that her child Aaron would be taken away from her if she did not comply and go along with the story and in an interview she said she noticed while at the police station that officers had photos of Damien Jesse and Jason hanging on the wall and that they would use them as dart targets indicating a strong prejudice for the three but I mean that prejudice would have existed if they if they thought that he was guilty that's funny

Yeah, I don't know. While Terry was suspicious, John Mark believed that they were innocent and Pam was unsure. The others still silently believed that the three were guilty, including Steve Branch Sr., Stevie's biological father, and Todd and Dana Moore. Those who believe that Damien, Jason, and Jesse are innocent have very loud voices and are fueled by a sense of injustice and also fueled by documentaries that sum up the entire facade as an investigation fueled by satanic panic.

and also the lack of evidence. And they could have pressured those into changing their opinions, much like how the police hypothetically pressured Jesse Miss Kelly into confessing for something he may or may not have done. But I think just the more likely conclusion is that there just isn't enough evidence

evidence to lean one way or the other. I really don't know why people are so gung-ho on either side of the argument. I understand being gung-ho if you think that an innocent man's locked up. I get that. But at the same time, for all the circumstantial evidence being presented to me, they probably did it, but I don't know if it's enough to convict someone on the information that's presented. No.

But as a non-legal personal opinion, they probably did it. Yeah. So you're leaning towards the, they, they probably, I think just, I think the whiskey bottle, I think the, um, the description, I think, um, you know, like two or three outside people, like other prisoners who were just around these guys saying that they did it. Like, I don't know.

Feels like a lot. There's more additional stuff that we had to leave out. I don't know if I would convict them over it if I was a jury, but... No, I probably... I don't think I would. I don't think you could. Yeah, there's nothing conclusive. So, free from death row, with all of the DNA evidence that has come to light since their conviction, as well as the technological advancements in forensics since the 90s, the same technological advancements that have

determined that Jack the Ripper killer has been found. Of course. It was argued that a retrial made logical sense due to the prevailing public doubt surrounding the case as well as extreme pressure from public groups fueled by online speculation and the trilogy of well-received documentaries called Paradise Lost that aim to interview people connected with the case and offer a counter to the court's opinion. But if they did that, if they did go through a retrial even with new evidence behind them, the future would have been uncertain. The prosecution and the Arkansas Legal...

No, Arkansas? Arkansas. Yeah, Arkansas. Why is it Arkansas? I do that. Why do I say that? I always think that. Kansas. Yeah, my brain has to go through like a mental note of what I'm actually reading. Well, Kansas is a state in the US and Arkansas is the same, but it is spelled just AR than Kansas. Yeah. So let's pronounce Arkansas. Okay.

Okay. The prosecution in the Arkansas legal system could be risking a very expensive payout as well as national embarrassment and scrutiny if the three were found to be wrongfully convicted, which of course isn't a good... That's not a good enough reason. It's not a reason to keep them locked up. Yeah, yeah. But also... It's just saying that the trial, like they... You may be fighting an uphill battle. Yeah. Yeah. That's why...

Like the prosecution and the legal system is incentivized to look the other way and keep them locked away. In 2011, Eccles, Baldwin, and Miss Kelly were allowed to enter into a special plea deal with the prosecutors. This would let them claim their innocence, as in claim that they were innocent, but acknowledge that if they had a retrial, the state would most likely convict them due to prevailing evidence.

This is called an Alfred plea and it is served as a way to avoid the retrial, which could have ended disastrously for either side. So this was kind of like a weird best of the worst situation for both sides where they just kind of agreed. Wait, you can enter into a plea deal where you're found innocent and don't have to go through a trial? Yeah, apparently.

It was kind of like it was both sides of the party acknowledging that if they went into a trial, they both had way too much to lose. But they were in this sticky situation where there was so much evidence, not evidence. So much doubt, yeah. So they let him out. It's like they can say they're innocent and that's why we're going further. They have very loud voices on their innocence, especially Damien. But technically they're innocent.

that the state still says they did it. Yeah, the state still maintains that they're guilty and they still served as guilt. Like, they're still criminals under the eyes of the court system because even though they were let out, they still convicted felons, basically. Interesting. Basically being paroled. That's weird. Yeah, it's a very interesting one. I've never seen it used before. I don't know how common it is. Yeah.

Seems really, really weird. I personally would have way preferred a retrial so that we could actually get to the bottom of this and find justice.

But yeah, this seems like not in the best interest for the public, but whatever. So the three were credited with their time served and thus released back into the public in 2011 with Jesse and Damien being on board with the plea deal. It took Jason a while to come around as he felt that this wasn't justice for them and that they weren't truly absolving themselves of what he considered an unjust verdict and nor were they truly finding out who murdered the victims, which I agree with.

He'd grown accustomed to prison because again, like if, if they do go through the retrial and they find them innocent, then this would also incentivize the police to then reopen the investigation and try to actually track down who killed them. Then he, then they would be following up on things like Terry Hobbs. And if you remember the first episode, there was the, uh, the African American man in the Bojangles restaurant who was covered in blood and mud within like a mile of the murder scene. Like they would have followed up on that stuff. Hopefully, but,

Yeah. So, yeah, I wish it had gone through a retrial. He'd grown accustomed, this is Jason, he'd grown accustomed to prison and had managed to build a life there and he also didn't want to walk out with the guilty verdict still looming over his head in the public's eyes. In the end, he did not take the deal for himself but for Damien who had sat on death row for 18 long years. Damien thanked Jason during the press conference for practically saving his life and they both hugged while everyone in the room clapped. Reddit moment.

Eccles on his deteriorating health on death row.

This is a quote from Damien Eccles. One of the most important and biggest things is that I was losing my eyesight due to the fact that I haven't seen sunlight in almost a decade. I was also showing signs of having prediabetes and was having kidney difficulties due to being severely beaten at one point. I have had a heart palpitation since I was in my early teenage years that grew worse due to the stress of prison life. I was developing arthritis in my hips and knees due to having...

I know. I just like saying arthritis. I hear it said that way. And these due to having lived on concrete for almost 20 years and sleeping on a concrete slab. So yeah, he also said that he was forced to eat with his hands, which I don't think is a true statement.

The campaign for innocence was fueled by a lot of powerful people, interestingly enough. This doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a just cause or that there aren't compelling reasons for it to occur, but it is a potential answer for why the plea was even possible in the first place. A lot of celebrities were involved, which have been controversial. Musicians in the metal scene like Metallica, Pearl Jam, Black Flag, Marilyn Manson, and the Dixie Chicks. Is Dixie Chicks in metal? No, they're country. Sorry, shouldn't have looped it there.

Unless they've taken a very drastic turn since the last time I heard them. And actors like Johnny Depp, Winona Ryder and also producer Peter Jackson all voiced their support for the three men and even some helped fund their legal efforts. So there's no surprise why this really blew up in the way that it did in terms of people believing that they were innocent.

If they were guilty or not is still controversial and debated, and without a trial or without further evidence, it's impossible to definitively feel like justice was found. Do you want to take this last chapter? Yeah, I'll take it. So, request for DNA. Though now released, the Wefmifs 3, or at least Damien Eccles, have still been pretty vocal about their alleged innocence, continuing to seek new genetic testing of DNA from old crime scene evidence.

DNA that could not be recovered from the crime scene due to old data technology. Technology has come such a long way that retesting the evidence would lead to new discoveries and possibly even lead to the West Memphis Three being found totally innocent and a new suspect fingered. In 2022, the request to retest the evidence by Echols was denied on the fact that he is no longer in prison.

Echols then took his request to the Supreme Court, saying that denying the testing simply because he is no longer incarcerated impeached justice. He has done this with the support of the Innocence Project. Just under two years later, Echols was successful with the Supreme Court deciding 4-3 to reverse the previous decision of the lower courts and allow further testing.

Quote from Eccles, this is a monumenta. We appreciate the Arkansas Supreme Court giving this ruling and hope we can now once and for all solve this case, clear our names and find the person responsible for carrying out these horrendous crimes. So people point to this, this like, you know, them or at least Eccles desperately trying to get the DNA tested, retested and stuff as proof that they're innocent.

I don't know how I feel about it. I feel like, like, what's he realistically gonna do? Is he gonna say, uh, now that he's out, is he gonna say, uh, no, you guys don't test it. Like, obviously not, right? He's... Well, going all the way to the Supreme Court to fight, it's a pretty... If he's... But he's being pushed by special interest groups like the Innocence Project, like...

There's a lot of people now backing behind him. Look, if I killed these kids and I got out years later and they were like, no, you have to fight for blood, I'd be like, oh, I'm actually quite sick. Oh, sorry, I broke my leg. I can't make it today. Or just leave. I would find something. Kind of, but that's kind of like what the other two have done. I mean, Jason has also backed it a little bit, but...

Jesse Miskelly is completely out of the picture by this point, I think. Jesse's mentally ill. Like what's the, of course he's not going to be like a spokesperson for the crime thing. Like, yeah. Yeah. He pretty much disappeared and is doing his own private thing. Jason actually did. I think I might've wrote this later. He opened up his own, uh, not-for-profit, which later closed, which was about helping people who were, um,

Also convicted? Yeah, convicted. Wrongfully convicted. And he, if you kind of research him a little bit, he does tweet a lot about the, like, he kind of directly says to who killed those boys, we will find you sort of thing. And then Damien has been the most vocal. And there was a... What's his last name?

Jason Baldwin. Jason's? Jason Baldwin. Baldwin. Baldwin, that's okay. Continue. Damien Eccles also did one of those Reddit posts like Ask Me Anything. And I remember reading that someone said, you know, asked him about him being the main vocal point for the three boys. And he basically said he just felt like he needed to take it on and drive around.

to find who did it and prove their innocence sort of thing so it's interesting okay but let me let me paint it this way if this if damien is the killer or one of the killers and he was the like figurehead uh of the killings when it occurred and he's a lot of his motive and stuff like that was that he wanted attention perhaps uh and he wanted to be like a charles manson style figure

Um, then it, that does fall in line with then once you are free, uh, like trying to stay in the limelight as much as possible. And in, in this case to do that is to just create like a social movement out of it by begging for the DNA to be retested and things like that. Obviously, obviously if he is the killer, then that's obviously going to be a bad move long term, but perhaps he just wants attention in the short term. He's a weird dude. I don't know.

i don't know how to feel i mean i get it i get why people think that this makes them innocent if you're desperately pushing for it is a very weird thing to do if you are the killer but i don't think it's enough to rule them out either okay so i think i found damien eccles twitter he has an instagram as well that's quite is he is he the is he like the martial artist guy yes

Okay. So yeah, I found his Twitter. No way. His profile picture is him with like a, what do you call that? A staff. A bow staff. Yeah. So he does like, he does like martial arts training, but he has a Patreon. Oh. And you go to the Patreon and he's in, he says creating magic and art, but it's magic with a K. So it's like kind of the occultist, you know, side of magic or whatever. So he's still into all that. And yeah,

about like paganism and like arts and stuff yeah it's called high magic or something like that and it's about interesting it's about magic yeah and also how he was very into all that in prison and death row makes sense he has a patreon he has how many tiers does he have he's got up to a hundred and no he has a 450 tier oh my god

It's sold out. It's sold out. What if it's like pledge at this level and I'll confess? Yeah, I'll do it. I'll send you a written confession. Cover all the practices. Oh, yeah. Okay. For the 450 tier, you get private tutoring and whatever it is. It's like buying an instructor. Yeah. If that was still available, I would...

We get him for an episode. I actually said, no, I think we could just get him on. Honestly, I was thinking about trying it. I mean, we probably could, but I would feel bad after saying things like they...

I think they probably might have done it. I don't know. I'm just a guy. We'd be able to ask them though directly. I think it would be interesting. Oh, what are they going to say? They're going to be like, no, I don't know. Since you asked. Yes, it was me. No, I don't mean to ask them like if you did it, because obviously that's not going to work.

Maybe if we spring it on them quick enough, maybe they'll slip up. Just ask them about the investigation, about the case. The effects of the specifics of it and stuff like that. They would be the most knowledgeable in the world about it. I don't know. He's patron as successful as hell though, by the way. He seems very successful. 4,300 members. I don't know how to feel about this given his popularity stems from a very dark place, I would say. A dark subject.

Well, maybe he's really good at magic and martial arts. Well, he definitely is. I mean, I can see from the profile picture alone, his stance is perfect. But like, yeah, there's still the chance that he is guilty again. And it feels a bit weird. I don't know. There's a Jason Baldwin with a Bored Ape Yacht Club profile pic. And it'd just be really funny if like they got off of a life sentence and got really into crypto.

Push a meme coin immediately. I mean, if you did get released now, that's probably the first thing you'd do for sure. Just pull a Hawk tour. Also, if you do look up Charles Baldwin on Twitter, Charles J. Baldwin, it's him on Twitter, and he is ripped. Fucking shredded. Charles J. Baldwin? Yeah, Charles J. Baldwin. He's shredded, dude. Prison did him a favor.

i can see why he didn't want to leave oh man he is he is buffed up yeah yeah he that's that's a good call right there this is definitely him yeah yeah this is him yeah very interesting

Yep. So life after death, the final little chapter here. What have Damien, Jason and Jesse done after prison? Jesse has kept an extremely low profile, staying out of the public eye almost entirely. There were some reports that Jesse is now a mechanic and he spends this time or his free time with his family. Can I just add here? Sorry to interrupt you. I did see that he did have a arrest after prison, but I think it was not...

Sorry, let me just double check it. Okay, we'll come back to that. I'll keep reading while you look it up.

Jason has been involved in criminal justice reform, co-founding a non-profit that Kira talked about before and it has since shut down. However, Damien has released multiple books such as Life After Death and continued to be the loudest voice of the three, continuing to proclaim their innocence. He is also deeply entwined in spiritual practices and magic with a K at the end, which he says helped him get through prison. There's also, this isn't in the document, but I'm pretty sure he had a Kickstarter campaign

almost immediately after he left prison to write a book. And I think there was drama around that because he didn't end up delivering it or something. He didn't end up delivering the rewards. That's just another, it's not even relevant really, but it's just another kind of point against him in terms of lying and stuff. So figured I'd include it.

There have been so much media about the West Memphis Three, movies, documentaries, and books. From the controversially convicted criminals themselves, sleuths highly interested in the case, Hollywood producers, and even the law professionals involved. Notably, Dan Stidham, who was silent for a long period of time, released a book at the end of 2023 about his involvement in the case and his belief in the innocence of the three men.

Okay, so I just double checked, quickly circling back. So he was arrested in 2017. It says he was driving without a license, no proof of insurance and driving with one or no headlights. So nothing serious, but he was arrested again. Yeah, that's very low stakes comparatively. Just a little bit. Yeah. Tragically...

Christopher Byers' parents have both since passed away and John Mark died in a car accident in 2020. Pam has continued to question who the real killer of the boys are and Michael's parents have kept away from the spotlight. Without answers and with many different questions and many different voices arguing one way or the other about whether or not the West Memphis Three are guilty, we can only hope that Steve Edward Branch, Christopher Mark Byers and James Michael Moore are able to eventually receive the justice that they are owed.

And that's it. That's the entire case in as much detail as we can possibly fit into these episodes. I feel like both episodes kind of paint both sides pretty accurately at this point in time, give a pretty compelling list of evidence for and against their innocence. And it's really, we've said this a million times, but it's just up to you guys really listening. Like you've got to kind of make your own opinion on this, I'm afraid.

I'm kind of with Isaiah on this one. If you want to just sum up your thoughts again, Isaiah. Of all the people mentioned, they are the most likely to have done it, but I don't know for a fact that they have done it. And regardless of what I think, I think there was also not enough evidence to convict them. Yeah. I think most of it was circumstantial and off the bat. Exactly what I think. So...

Even if I have suspicions that they might be guilty, I don't think they should be convicted in court because it is certainly not beyond reasonable doubt. Yes, exactly. There's not enough hard evidence to determine their guilt. It is well within reasonable doubt. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's completely fine to think that they are guilty, but in a courtroom setting, it's a completely different burden of proof. Yeah.

I will say again, to sum it up, bad police investigation, a lot of things that they did incredibly wrong that led to a lot of doubt being placed on the investigation and suspects and things like that. Could have done a way better job there. That would have been nice if they had done that. And also, like you just said, not enough proof to convict. That's my final opinion. Yeah, yeah.

Man, tragic case though. Very, very, very tragic case. Very sad that three young boys lost their lives in the way that they did. And we don't have a definitive answer. It's always the worst kind of cases. Kira, what do you think? I'm in the same boat, really. Like I've been hearing about this case for years and it seems like every time I look into it, I find more information that makes me question everything. Yeah.

So, yeah, I don't have a definitive opinion if they did it or not because I'm just I can't be too sure. But I'm interested to see with this new approval of DNA testing what comes out of that. I think that's definitely something that I will keep my eye on. And, yeah, like you said, I just really hope that they find the justice that they desperately deserve. So it's very, very tragic. Yeah.

Agreed. It would be interesting if the DNA test results come back and it was also the Jack the Ripper killer as well. It's linked to that guy. Who is he? Who is the new Jack the Ripper killer? It was a barber. He was a Polish barber who immigrated to Britain, I think. I feel like we talked about him then, because I distinctly remember a Polish... He was one of the suspects, I think, but it was always like, oh, well, this family...

said that what was it they found a descendant of the barber and tested her DNA and like his mitochondrial match to like a handkerchief of blood that a family said had come from their uncle who was a barkeeper who said that a man who he believes to be Jack the Ripper came in and got blood on or something like that um

So it was like they tested a handkerchief that they did not know for a fact was his, Jack the Ripper's blood, and then found the ancestor of one of the suspects. And the two DNAs did not exclude. It's the same thing where it's like so many percent of the population have the same mitochondrial. You're going to run into that problem with testing old DNA like that is just not.

uh strong enough to really pinpoint exact matches probably so you've got to deal with like the this is this matches 10 of the population which does narrow it down so that is kind of good but also it's not enough to convict um that's gonna do it for this episode of red thread thank you very much for listening uh really appreciate your support

Let us know what you guys want us to hit next time. We're taking suggestions from the audience. So please leave comments below. Really want to see what you guys want us to talk about. Would love to know. Official.men for merch and things like that and early access to the show. Really appreciate it. And that's it. Thank you, Kira, for joining us for this one. Really appreciate your hard work.

The 50 pages of this case. Thank you for making this show exist. Yes. Thank you, guys. We don't get to say thank you enough. Thanks for doing all of the work and us reaping the benefits means a lot. You guys are great. You guys are amazing. Thank you. Thank you. We certainly appreciate it. Thank you very much, Isaiah, for joining us as always. Absolutely. We'll see you next time, guys. Day Red. Day Red.

Stay thread.