34: Sect of Nacozari | Red Thread
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The room is dark, the rhythmic chanting, a dull hum in your ears as you stand among darkened figures. You feel powerful here. Part of something ancient, a part of a collective pursuing that which promises to usher in great things. You've been told about this moment for months, never more than a whisper, heavy on the lips of those who spoke of it. As you join the swaying of bodies, you look down at the figure kneeling before the altar, the ropes biting into their wrists, their own body trembling.

The high priestess steps forward, the ceremonial blade gleaming in her hand. She circles the unlucky figure kneeling on the ground, their face hidden by a shrouded veil. As the priestess raises the knife, a sense of unease prickles at the base of your neck. You glance around, catching brief, almost guilty eye contact from the others. The chanting, now louder, drowns out your thoughts. And then, as if on cue, they stop.

The priestess turns to you, her eyes cold. She points the blade to your chest and the others drag you forward. You were never a part of the circle. You were always meant for it.

And by it, I mean the red thread. Hey, I'm Jackson. Nice to have you here. No sacrifices. I was about to compliment the writing choice on that line, but it was a red thread pun. So I take it back. I was really impressed. I was like, this is interesting. This is like a podcast to me. It's relatively low effort throughout the whole. I mean, we're just reading. We're just fucking chilling. Right. And it's like, we're just hanging out. The most effort part.

is the intro, the writing of the intro and then the delivery of the intro. I like it. I'm learning. I'm four time guests by the way. I think it's a record. We've never had a guest on this much. It's incredible. Charlie will get back from the, uh, from the grocery store. Now Charlie, I thought your name was Charlie Jackson.

Not Charlie Jackson. That sounds like a fake name. Dad went out to get milk and he hasn't been back. Okay. So when he comes back, he's very unreliable. Did you, did you guys enjoy the twist of this one though? Yeah, that was good. You were always meant for the red thread. I was going to say, I like the idea that you were never part of the circle. You were always meant for it. That's good. Considering, you know, the topic we're talking about today when it comes to like cults and whatnot,

How quickly cults can turn on the people that they, like the cult members that suspect that they're a part of the cult. You know, they think that they're a part of this cult. And I imagine in many cases that that kind of infrastructure. Oh, well, I mean, it happens like all the time because what happens is when the cult leader decides that someone is disinterested with their own goals, it's like, oh, actually God told me that they're the problem now. Yeah. We have to get rid of that one. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So being in a cult, believe it or not,

Being a cult is dangerous territory. They could turn on you. Don't do that. Believe it or not, being with a group of people that worship a human who's also in the group and kill people for it is bad for one's health. Unbelievable. I believe it.

We joke around and we say, like, obviously being a cult is dangerous, but somehow people keep joining cults. They're not watching the red thread. They're clearly not watching the red thread, because if they were, they would know that this is a cool cult to be a part of, or you just worship us, and we tell you who the bad people are. It's different when we do it.

Yeah, we have merchandise. It's a completely different. Exactly. It's like a tax deferment. It's like a whole thing. There's a lot of lore. There's a lot of lore.

Is listening to a podcast for multiple years, like once we get in the, you know, multiple hundreds of episodes, is that cult-like behavior? Absolutely. What kind of a question is that? Okay, so for one, broadcast of any kind has only been around since the invention of the radio, okay? Before that, we had paper, newspapers and shit. So like, say 300 years max, people have been able to be influenced en masse from some kind of publication.

Sure. That's not very long of human history. So, you know, if at any point, especially like even then it's like corporations like the newspaper, maybe influencing people really like you said, since radio, it's been individuals. Yeah. Yeah. This is a call. A hundred percent.

Yeah, I would think so. Everyone watching. I mean, who else? What would you describe it if pre-radio people listen to every word a group of people said for years on end and bought whatever they were told to buy? Exactly. This is a confronting question then, but I'm genuinely asking, like, what's the difference then between like gospel and, you know, what we're doing then, like cult-like behavior through radio? Yeah.

Like the gospel? Like the Bible? Yeah, like genuine religions. Oh, what's the difference between religions and cults is what you're asking, right? I guess, yeah. That's the fundamental.

Okay, well, technically, if we're talking about it's worshipping and believing in something, sure, those are the same. Well, a cult... Okay, a cult is a religion to the person within the cult. Yes. And any religion that is not a part of your own religion would be a cult because it is a false religion, assuming that you believe in one religion.

closed off religion, so to speak, or whatever. So it's kind of like whichever way the definitions want to fall, I guess it would be subjective. But I guess a broad definition for it could be

Anything where one individual has the say or like one small group of people completely dictate the lives of others instead of a group of people adhering to a code or a book or a rule of law or something like that. If it said it's a group of people deciding how others live instead of a group of people like leading others to conform in the same lifestyle they are, I would differentiate that as a culture or religion.

We're not directly leading anyone to live in any certain way by doing what we're doing. You guys might not. Speak for yourself, Chairman. Look, I didn't see a rulebook when I walked in here. We're pretty much coming up with this on the fly. Hey, bud. Yeah, cult seems like there's a lot of admiration for a person or thing. In my opinion, it's always seemed like there's a sort of sinister...

sort of nature to it. And from the inside, the admiration blinds you to that. And then from the outside, it seems obvious that it's bad, right? Like it seems like, oh, this is clearly a sinister thing.

It's pretty much whatever passed the sniff test, right? Of like, yeah, that's a cult or that's a religion or whatever. I like things that don't, I mean, something greater than just a sniff test being able to determine if it's a cult or something else. But I get that determining that is a subjective thing at the end of the day. It's also a broadly defined word.

If someone steps forward and they're like, hey, here is a thing that I choose to live by. Let's all like work to live by that together. I would call that religion. If someone stands up and says, I'm going to show you how to live by based on my own, you know,

statements the what i tell you to do i would consider that a cult but it gets murky when that person like we've seen in the past with heaven's gate they take elements of existing religions though to flavor their kind of teachings sure yeah they're they're smart about the the uh you know the brainwashing miss the brainwashing yeah they're smart about how they go about it um but

but it's still someone deciding, even like you, you have cults within religions, right? There's a bunch of cults within Christianity who take the Bible and then interpret it in a specific way, right? Like that's the same thing as taking quote unquote real stuff and then saying, okay, well now I'm going to manipulate the wording or take these parts. I like get rid of these parts. I don't. And Oh, look now I'm the leader of this. Yeah. As long as it, if it has to go through the filter, uh,

If it has to go through a final filter before you reach enlightenment or you get what you need or want out of it, the reason you're following it and the filter is a person who can change things at will and can subjectively manipulate everything. And then whatever they say, you have to be influenced by them. I'd say that's pretty much the definition of a cult at this point.

As a general rule of thumb, if a religion has less than like a thousand people, it's a cult. Yeah. If it is any small number, there is no way out of all of human history, like 400 people got it right. Everyone else got it wrong. There's no way. If you have as many followers as a small meme page, it's probably a cult. Yeah.

It's probably a cult. Yeah. It's probably not. Agreed. Yeah. So are we a cult or are we not? Are we a religion or are we a cult? Definitely a cult. We're a cult, but we're a low-level cult. We haven't asked people to kill anyone yet. Yeah. And also, we're a fun cult. We're not a religion until we finally rake in our tax deferment.

Which is coming. We get tax benefits, right? From being a cult religion? For religion, yes. If you're a religion, you don't have to file taxes. That's so awesome. I'd like to do that. Yes, please. Because religions are state-protected bodies. So sometimes...

will use religious status as a way to get around tax laws and stuff like that. Most of the time, in my experience, it tends to be a good thing because it's like small churches that are having trouble keeping the lights on anyway. But then other times, megachurches use it to effectively commit tax fraud. Or buy private jets and things like that so that they're evangelists. They're

pastors or whoever they are pastors can fly around in comfort yeah they don't have to fly with hot tubes of demons full of demons or whatever yeah yeah yeah I love that Kenneth Copeland what's that guys Kenneth Copeland that's it yeah yeah yeah he looks like he's wearing a mask don't you ever say I said that don't you ever say I said that I've got a demon in me

Okay, well then, with Kenneth Copeland, would you agree with this? If he wasn't a part of, you know, is he a Christian pastor? What is he? Yeah. Denominate. If he had never found Christianity and received the kind of wealth that he currently has, don't you think it's possible that a guy like that would become a cult leader? He does seem very cult leader-ish to me. I think he is a cult leader. He has the personality to... Well, it's also... Okay, so it also depends like...

Okay, let's put a hypothetical up. Say someone goes to a religion like Christian or whatever, and they're like, hey, I know the true way, follow me or whatever, but nothing bad ever comes of it.

That is still a cult leader by definition. They just aren't acting like in evil or like, sure it's malicious and that they're being manipulative, but they aren't being like a terror, you know? So typically that, that kind of thing flies under the radar. What is the definition? Define cult. Dangerous.

It's less sensational when it's just someone manipulating people for non-nefarious reasons, but it's still a manipulation at the end of the day, and it's still a cult leader lying to people.

A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. So cults are inherently religious and it is towards a particular, so a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. So the excessive admiration of Kenneth Copeland, I would, I would define that as a cult personally.

Yeah, I think I would agree with that. If someone sees Kenneth Copeland as like, you know, their apostle almost, their prophet directly from God, um...

Yeah, yeah, I would say so. I'd say that would qualify. From what I understand of Christianity and religion itself, doesn't that kind of, you know, hero worship-esque attitude towards Kenneth Copeland and his kind of proliferation of it, doesn't that fly in the face of Christianity and religion itself? Yes, yes, yes, yes. That doesn't mean to say that everyone that watches people like, I mean, there's a bunch of like,

sort of mega pastors who i feel are not being representative of christ's teachings um but that's not to say everyone who watches them is necessarily bought in but if someone fully buys into the idea of like this one religious figure is their prophet so to speak is the one from god then yeah um i mean god's very clear about you know call my no man father but i you know um

No man before thee and the Father. I make intercession for thee at the right hand of God. It's very clear Jesus is the only person to ever be exonerated to a higher level or whatever. Which is, again, so if Kenneth Copeland kind of thrives off basically spitting in the face of the teachings of Christ, from what I understand, by doing things like that, then it speaks to a level of cult-like behavior. He's a false...

a false idol basically using religion for his own benefit let's go visit him and ask you big cult guy or what consider yourself religious or a cult leader yeah let's just if i put eight dollars in an envelope mail it to you will you pray for me kenneth because that's what it says you'll do

I, uh, so a while back I was going to, and I'm still going to at some point, I just wanted to take more time with it while I had stuff going on. I wanted to make a video talking about, um, like televangelists, right? Like the history of them and all that stuff, why it became popular. And then the big figures like Copeland or Joel Osteen and stuff like that. And I went into it very like, cause I'm, I'm, I always tried to be very careful about

about criticizing people who preach the gospel or may bring Christ to some people. Because even if, like, I don't like Joel Osteen, right? There might have been someone somewhere who heard a gospel message from him and came to Christ because of it, right? If it's going through the lips of these guys, then they're probably...

They're probably like misconstruing the teachings of Christ. Correct. And a lot of, again, that's where I'm getting to. But there are a lot of people out there who see these people as like good figures because they got something good from them. And that's not to the figures credit. Like Jesus used a donkey, right? Jesus can use anyone regardless of if that person is deserving of it or not. Maybe that was a really smart donkey.

All I mean to say is I'm very careful about criticizing them because I don't want to hurt the reputation of Christ who may be seen as like, you know, through these people's eyes. But when I started to do research for it, just the number of times that it was like, oh, well, you're sick, you're hurt. Well, give, give to the church and God will help you with that. That's where it's like,

Huh? Huh? You do what? You should be mad because that is directly damaging to how people perceive religion. It is. I think it does more hurt for God than it does good. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it just makes me violent and angry. Yeah, it's like where I read a lot of SK, a lot of SK by my Christian boy. And the nation church...

of europe in the 1800s reminds me very much of the charismatic movement in america with the evangelists like it's very much so like you know we're the gatekeepers of this thing and when you're you know there's like a money draw gospel yeah prosperity gospel instead of having the government essentially prescribe sacraments at your deathbed so you can enter heaven before you die now it's like

give us money because we can't control it that much so it's like a it's like just another new thing of just evil people trying to manipulate shit isn't it crazy what you can accomplish with a little bit of charisma charismatic movement the Christian Riz movement dude

That sounds like something you would hear out of a mega non-denominational church. Like, we gotta have roots for Christ. What was that tweet I made when the Dream stuff happened? Oh, a lot of people worried about Dream's face reveal, but we should be worried that Jesus would reveal his face to us. If you open your Bibles to Matthew, we can find that. That's funny.

That's great. They all do stuff like that. No, dude, like this Jonestown video I've been reading and like watching documentaries for and stuff. It is insane how it started from like just a normal quote unquote normal pastor became like we have to we have to like beat and torture each other because God tells us to. We have to take our own lives and our children's life because God told us to like it's it's terrifying.

Like what one charismatic person can do, the damage it can cause. Yeah, the damage they can wreak upon others. Yeah, it's insane. Yeah, charisma is genuinely one of the most dangerous things, one of the most powerful things a person can have. And that ties in nicely to the actual topic today. We spent 20 minutes kind of like tearing down and discussing cults, which is good. Bittingly so. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's... She's like, they come here for the episode titles. She's like, they come here for the episode titles. No, they're going to, they want to hear us. This is good. This is good. I mean, this is directly tied to what we're talking about today, which is the sect of Nakozari. And a lot of you in the audience probably don't know what that is. I've tried to choose as niche of a topic as possible this week.

So a lot of you hopefully don't know what that is. I know all about it. I feel you're furiously typing in the comments right now saying, I know so much about this. I knew it. I knew it. And I'm very proud of you. Thank you. Make sure you do leave those comments. I really appreciate that. Yeah, Caleb. Okay, Caleb, what is it then? Like I told you guys before, I'm fully invested in this specific story here. I know all about this. This is my hyper fixation. It's one of my special interests.

Yep, that's one of your favorites. That's a lie, by the way. I've never heard of this. I know Isaiah knows about this. I'm impressed. I don't know a lot about this. You just said that... Or I saw the name, and I was like, oh, it's that cult, right? Because it's like... It was Mexico or New Mexico or something like that. And I remember...

This was recently, and I think people died, but I can't remember exactly, but that's all I know about it. Human sacrifices and the like were performed by the sect of... I didn't realize they were human sacrifices. Okay, well, that's something. I'll do my best not to laugh this time. Yes, please. We'll see about that one.

I don't trust you. Negative charisma. Negative riz. Negative riz. I don't know. He's laughing so hard over a woman falling to her death. He's like, I apologize for that behavior. I don't know what that was. What came over me?

I feel it again. It's coming on again. I feel whimsy. It's a little shame. It's coming on. The whimsy is coming on. What it is, guys, is he just gets so happy talking to his friends. That's what it is. Just so grateful to be involved in this podcast. He's just so happy to be here. That's not a cult. No, this isn't a cult. It's just friends being friends and there happens to be microphones in our faces.

Hey guys, hope you don't mind me cutting in here to tell you all about Godslap. It's an exciting day because the next arc of my comic book series, Godslap, has just launched. For those of you that don't know, Godslap is a series created by myself and Charlie/Critical, formerly of Redthread, that is all about nuts-to-butts action and the wacky shenanigans of our main character, Aeis, and his friends who find themselves the targets

of a maniac by the name of Defista. Issue 6 has just launched and with it comes our craziest arc yet, filled to the brim with new characters who'll knock your socks off. No spoilers of course, but this arc goes off the wall with how crazy stuff gets. There's no better time to jump in either, with Godslap Volume 1 launching as well at the same time, which has all five of the first issues combined together in one awesome collector's edition that includes a red foil handprint logo on top.

So it's a very special edition. It's the best way to get into the new series that many are calling "The Best Comic Book Series Created Ever?" Question mark? Yes? Exclamation point? On top of that, you can get issues 1 to 5, as well as the brand new issue 6, together in a God Slapped Catch-Up Bundle, discounted of course, meaning you get everything right now for a very affordable price. Not to toot our own horns of course, but we are very proud of what we've created here. There's awesome action, incredible drawings, funny character-driven moments,

Godslap has it all. Check it out now at Badeg.co, that's Badeg.co, C-O, to grab yourself a copy and begin this exciting new arc with us as we expand the universe and story of Godslap. Thank you to everyone for checking it out. Links will be in the description.

The support has been incredible with this series that we've spent the last two years working on. We're excited for all the stuff we've got coming next, and we can't wait to show you what we've been cooking up. It would mean so much if you guys checked it out. It really would. It's been a lot of work and very excited for this new issue to come out because it's a milestone for us and we couldn't be prouder. So thank you very much again for making it a possibility. And now back to Red Thread. Okay, so Sylvia Meraz Morano, grandmother, mother, wife, and murderer.

Sylvia Merez led a small religious sect called the sect of Nacozari situated in a small town in Sonora. That's a region. Sonora, Mexico, a disturbing devotion to the patron goddess of death. Santa Muerte. I think that's how you pronounce it. Led to Sylvia convincing her family to commit several human sacrifices to gain the favor of who they worshiped. So,

Yeah, it's very, very interesting. Okay, so this is kind of similar to what we were talking about, about people taking a religion and then twisting it. Because Santa Muerte is a huge figure in a lot of Mexican traditions and religions and stuff like that. Yeah, so we're going to talk about it in a sec. There's a whole chapter in here dedicated to that. But basically, Santa Muerte was a...

You know, the Day of the Dead, that kind of figure. Tico de Mayo. Yeah, Tico de Mayo. Up until...

up until the year 2001 roughly and then it kind of catapulted into its own religion based around that figure. I don't think Santa Muerte is like a god-like figure. I think it's literally a patron saint of death. So it's like not I don't know if there's religious connections beyond like Aztec kind of folklore and stuff. But yeah, it's definitely a modern interpretation of religion. It's kind of like a very new thing from the early 2000s.

Which is interesting, because it spread very rapidly from the year 2000. Reminds me of Arkay, one of the Nine Divines from The Elder Scrolls. Which one? What? I've just been listening to a lot of Elder Scrolls lore. Sorry, I felt the need to interject. Some people will know what I'm talking about. Arkay, the Divine of Death and Cycle of Rebirth, etc.

I mean, for every religion, I feel like there needs to be a God of death, right? Because it's very central to the whole idea of, you know, creation and recycling and stuff like that. So every religion probably has a God of death, right? Probably. All the good ones. Ah,

It depends on what you mean with the word God. Like, in Christianity, there's like the death angel that appears and stuff like that, but that's only one part in the Old Testament. Other than that, death is kind of just a thing that happens. But that actually is interesting now that you mention that, because I haven't thought about this before. But in most, well, I don't know about most, in a lot of religions,

death, the figure that represents death isn't necessarily bad. No. It's a natural because it's a natural part of life. It's just a thing that happens, right? Yeah. Yeah, so Santa Muerta isn't viewed as bad in like the law of traditions. And like the death angel in Christianity is an angel, right? It's not viewed as bad.

Even though it's not like a prominent figure as much as like, you know, Santa Muertes or something like that. But yeah, I haven't thought about that before. There's a lot of religions that not only have death, but don't portray it negatively. It's just like a figure, right? No, a lot of religions, I think, view it as a necessary part of life that, you know, is embodied by some kind of figure at the end of the day in their religious texts. Not something to necessarily be fearful of.

It's something to view as, again, just a natural part of life. So there isn't much information available pertaining to Sylvia's upbringing, but what is known is as follows. She was born in 1968 to a poor family near the city of Hermosillo. I apologize if I get this wrong. I promise I'm trying. Hermosillo in the Mexican region of Sirona.

She and her family lived in the small mining town of Nacuzari de Garcia.

Silvia was a young mother, of course, not an irregular occurrence in both low-income communities or in the time period itself. She first gave birth at just 16 to her first son, Raymond Omar Palacios Mraz. She went on to marry a man named Martin Baron Lopez, with whom she had three children, Ivan Martin, Francisca Magdalena, and Georgina Guadalupe Baron Mraz.

When she was 29, she gave birth to the last of her children, who she named Sylvia. By the way, I was saying nice to your pronunciation just a second ago, not the fact that she gave birth at just 16. I realized that was a pretty weird place to say nice to. I figured that's what you didn't mean. I didn't think that's what you meant. Yeah, yeah.

Nice. Young moms. Nice, dude. Fuck yeah. She gave birth at 16? Yeah. Jackson, I know you're a YouTuber, but you've got to calm down. I've got to keep it in check. Murder? I've got to keep it in check. I'm just easily impressed by people pronouncing things smoothly. That nice was too.

Look, I'm not good at it, but just I've been bad at it for so long I have to improve eventually. Kind of like my YouTube videos. There's also little information available as to when Sylvia herself began to devote her life to Santa Muerta. It most likely happened over a period of time, growing from small, regular religious rituals like creating altars and small offerings and prayers.

Okay, so now let's talk about this Santa Muerte itself. To kind of just get an understanding of the context around the landscape at the time, how people started to adopt Santa Muerte as more of a religious figure as opposed to just like a cultural folklore kind of holiday personality, essentially, which is what it kind of was before that.

Yeah, good luck.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. I wrote a story involving the Parapuachin culture and everything that spells it. Meklonquaddle? Meklonquaddle? Yeah, I was going to say there's a dinosaur. It definitely is in Quetzalcoatl. Quetzalcoatl. It could be similar to that. Yeah, Quetzalcoatl is the serpent god.

I thought it was a dinosaur. That's it. It's pretty much right. You did good. Nice. What am I, of Mexican descent or something? My Wikipedia said that for years. It said that I was of Mexican descent, which is not true.

The modern cult or religion that is formed around her blends Catholicism with pre-Columbian and African traditions, and from that, they formed a movement for the many working and middle-class worshippers that has exploded in the turn of the century.

Pre-2001, Santa Muerta was a popular figurehead in the Day of the Dead holiday, traditionally celebrated on November 1st and 2nd in Mexico, but her existence has since taken a more spiritual and religious tone in the new millennium. Yeah, so you see a little picture here of Mictlan Chitul. Chitul? Whatever, however it was pronounced. Mictlan Quatl. Yeah, that one. Mictlan Quatl. Yeah, that one. I don't know. Yeah, so there's a little, like...

here on screen is of that it's kind of like a yellow figure with a few hands and then that's kind of been like translated across the Aztec Empire into you know modern day Mexican and Latin American spiritual traditions into Santa Muerte which is a woman in a veil a skeletal figure basically pretty a pretty direct personification of death right it's genuinely a skeleton with a scythe and a you know black or

or it's interesting how it's fused with catholicism to create kind of this new offshoot because there's a lot of influences especially design wise and stuff to other tradition beliefs of death and stuff but now it's kind of become like a catholic local traditional hybrid type thing yeah it's like a fuse it's as fuse of the two more traditional beliefs mixed with catholicism that's interesting yeah

Like, I'm pretty sure a lot of the depictions of Santa Muerte have things like the Catholic cross and stuff on them as well. Things like that. Santa Muerte's cult is believed to have originated along the Gulf of Mexico, gaining its prominence in Tepido, one of Mexico City's most notorious neighborhoods, and in the border towns of Sonora, before expanding across North and Central America.

This follows a pattern seen throughout Mexico's religious history. Local folk heroes, Aztec gods, and Afro-Cuban traditions have been spread alongside Catholicism.

However, Santa Muerta is not recognized as an official saint by the Catholic Church. In fact, some Catholic leaders in Mexico have openly condemned her worship and many of her followers view it as a separate religion alongside their Catholic beliefs. I've heard this before, by the way, that like, despite it being such a big thing in Mexico, a lot of church leaders discourage it. Why do you think that is?

Well, so the whole idea of like sainthood within Catholicism is that certain figures who were blessed enough by the Holy Spirit or had enough powers through God or Jesus were able to ascend to sainthood, right? So there is a very particular process that people had to go through to be venerated as a saint in the Catholic Church. Most of the saints are figures from the Bible, people like St. Paul, St. Peter, you know, St. John, stuff like that.

And then other ones that came afterwards, like there was very strict criteria around. They had to be religious leaders. They had to perform a miracle in front of witnesses. Like there was a ton of stuff that had to happen.

They had to live their life basically in dedication to the church. And then afterwards, they were given the status as a saint. And then specific saints are said to preside or to be a moderator for prayers over different things. So, like, Saint Christopher is the saint of travel. Saint... I forget who...

There's a few that are like the saints of animals Like there's a saint of dogs Saint of snakes St. Patrick is the saint of snakes And legend has it that he ran the snakes Out of Ireland right So that's where St. Patrick's Day comes from Didn't they beat the snakes to death Or was that a Simpsons episode

I mean, I honestly don't know, actually. I'm dumb to that one. I know the legend is that St. Patrick ran the snakes out of Ireland. He may have done it by beating them to death. With sticks? With sticks. I don't know. I think it's like a Pied Piper story. Like he led them away, if I remember right. But either way, St. Patrick, like everyone, the saints have something else to pray to. And the church is very particular about who gets sainthood.

So Santa Muerta being prayed to as a saint, but not being an individual that was venerated by the church before death goes against like, you know, the Vatican or like Catholicism's beliefs, which makes sense that people who still pray to or worship or honor Santa Muerta view it as something that while tied to the church is like adjacent to it. Yeah. I was going to say a little bit of light heresy.

It's just a little ad-lib. Just an ad-lib I came up with. Just a playful amount of heresy. No, it's a playful amount of heresy. Yeah, playful heresy. Fun amount of heresy. Yeah, playful heresy. Remember, 78% of Mexico identifies as Roman Catholic, while one of the most popular Santa Muerta churches, David Romo, estimates that around 5% of the country's population holds strict religious beliefs towards Santa Muerta, which is impressive for a relatively modern religion.

Yeah, 5% is a lot for something that started recently. That's a big adoption rate for something that started under 20 years ago. 5% is huge for something that isn't...

Abrahamic, right? Outside of like, you know, Eastern world like Hinduism or Buddhism or something like that. So 5%, uh, Mexico is a population of 100, about 130 million. So 5% of that is about 6.4 million people devoted to this figure. That's crazy for a new religion. Yeah, that is a lot. 68% of the United States is Christian. Wow. Uh, that sounds right. Two thirds. Mm-hmm. Uh,

22% no religious preference. So that alone makes up 90%. Yeah.

And then Judaism is 2%. 2% Judaism, 1% Muslim, 1% Buddhist. Yeah, the other 10% is like strangers. Yeah, 5% of the country, at least according to this one church, according to David Romo, 5% of the country being Santa Muerta strictly is pretty... It's definitely significant for a country that was predominantly just Roman Catholic before. And remember, people will probably still just put Roman Catholic if they're

If they're, you know, answering this, what do you call it? What do you call it when people go around and ask you what religion you are? Yeah, a census. Like if they're answering the census, if they, as we've said previously, if they have multiple beliefs, like you can believe in Catholicism and Santa Muerte at the same time, then they'd probably just put Roman Catholic on the census. So I've learned that 78% also probably, you know, believes in Santa Muerte. Or has some beliefs around it. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's kind of impressive, definitely impressive that 5% of the country holds that belief. In 2003, Mexico's Interior Ministry officially registered Santa Muerta as a religion.

But by 2005, the ministry reversed its decision, claiming that the loosely organized faith was not adhering to its own rules. What? What does that mean? Basically like, psych, you're not a religion anymore. What does that mean? The phrasing of it was not adhering to its own rules. It's like, actually, we looked at the religion and we're not happy with it. So you're not a religion anymore. Yeah. I think they mean it was a religion that was too ill-

illy defined, right? Broadly defined. That's a good point. It can be other religions simultaneously. Yeah. There wasn't enough people conforming to these same set ideals. It was too spread out, which would make sense. Revoking the recognition meant that Santa Muerte's church could no longer raise funds or own property in Mexico.

This culminated in 2009 when authorities, including city workers and the army, demolished numerous shrines in and around Nuevo Laredo. Whoa, okay. Despite this crackdown, the religion has only grown, and it's not hard to see why. The people that flock to the religion are generally the downtrodden, desperate to believe in something that will offer them love, wealth, and protection from despair, financial hardships, and other dangers. Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah, the...

The beliefs of what we're talking about today do not reflect the Santa Muerte beliefs as a whole. No. And most religious professors also believe in that fact that this offshoot wasn't fully representative of the core beliefs of Santa Muerte or anyone practicing that religion in the other cities and stuff. Hmm.

I mean, it goes without saying, it's with anything. Jonestown isn't a representative of Christianity, right? Yeah, exactly. All it takes is one bad person to use something for their own good for that name to then be tarnished. It shouldn't be representative of the greater group of people. Yeah, it's like YouTubers and

We know where you're going. Well, I feel like there's a few more than one bad apple there, Caleb. I feel like it's maybe half the basket at this point. Yeah, it's not one bad apple. All of my friends seem pretty cool, but it seems like anyone that is not one of my friends is the devil that I should never talk to. It's kind of weird. It's kind of strange how that works. It is scary.

Led by Sylvia Mraz, this particular Santa Muerte cult was composed mostly of her own family and was found locally in their town of Nakazari. Hence the name, Sect of Nakazari. The adherents included four out of her five children, her dad, her partner, and a local friend. What was that one out of five children doing? Like, no, I don't want to be a part of that. You guys are lame. I don't want to be part of the family. I'd rather play ball cup.

What was the, what was the age spread between them? Right. Uh, pretty significant. Yeah. So do you think it was like a really young one? No, I think the young, I think the really young ones would have been more heavily indoctrinated because they're directly under the control of their mother at that point. Uh,

Well, I just feel like does it count, right? Because I feel like an infant wouldn't count. No, I think it counts in terms of the reporting of the story. I think that would count because they were all pretty active participants. I feel like if there is one of her five children that wasn't a part of it, it's probably like an older kid that has moved away or something to their own city. Yeah. To England, maybe. Yeah.

Sylvia managed to convince them that following Santa Muerta could free them from their poverty and provide them protection. Sylvia was a fanatical follower of Santa Muerta and intensely believed in her abilities.

There's a lot of poverty where they lived, and Sylvia exploited these vulnerabilities within her own family to build her small following. Though, realistically, it is unknown if she did or did not believe in what she was preaching to her family members. It's possible that she earnestly believed that their lives would be made better by worshipping Santa Muerta. Yeah, I don't have the feeling that she was doing this for any kind of, like, direct... You know how, like, most cult leaders...

create their cults to like you know siphon funds or things like that from from the people following them it doesn't sound to me like that's what she was doing and again there's not like there's not a heavy amount of documentation to go through for this so a lot of it is you know left up for debate um but yeah i feel like she was genuinely mentally ill enough to believe in the the things that she was kind of preaching which is yeah she seemed kind of crazy yeah

Yeah, what's up with that? She seems a little weird. Seems a little strange to me. I don't think I like her. You know what? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this girl, not for me. Yeah.

Not my type for sure. They shared the same socioeconomic challenges, so the promise of wealth, health, and protection against unsafe situations in their environments really led people to believe that these alternate beliefs, and as will soon come to, dangerous ideas, were worth committing to. One level of exploitation on Silvio Mraz's part is undeniable, however.

Once the members were indoctrinated into the cult-like belief in the Santa Muerta figure, it became far easier to convince them to do these things that Sylvia wanted of them. As Santa Muerta is the Lady of Death, Sylvia was able to easily instill fear into those of her family and those of her followers who swayed from the beliefs at all.

The promise of divine punishment becomes a lot scarier when it's promised from the scythe of the saint of death herself. That is true. Yeah, like that does kind of make everything, the stakes a lot higher when you're worshiping

The god of death. I know we were talking before about how god of deaths are usually a good thing in religion. They're not necessarily evil or malevolent. It's just like a symbol. Yeah, but it's still human nature is to fear death. Yeah, and they're powerful. They're also powerful. So they could be good until you're perceived as not good. And then maybe it takes care of you. Yeah, they kind of demand that kind of reverence.

I also, the part about her maybe actually believing this kind of reminds me, I mean, I don't know the details of the story to know if that's true or not, but it reminds me of the Heaven's Gate cult. Like, it seems like the leaders of that cult really did, they were crazy and they believed the hype, right? Yeah, they were fucking insane. I think that's the conclusion we came to when we did the Heaven's Gate episode is that they probably did believe in what they were saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, at least to some degree. So maybe there's a level of that here. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think there is. And especially when you take into context the socioeconomic factors in play, like the desperation to believe in something that would bring you this kind of fortune or good luck or whatever. Yeah, I could see her probably believing in it as a form of escapism. Like maybe she had been a devout Catholic before.

And she figured it hadn't brought her anything up until this point. Like there had been no kind of reward for her faith. And so she pivots to Santa Muerte as a form of, you know, desperation to get something out of life. I could absolutely see that being a possibility. Yeah.

But sadly, it takes a tragic turn because it didn't stop at just belief and making small little trinkets and roadside shrines as most people of the faith do. It instead turns to a pretty horrible end of the story, which is that Sylvia Merez turns into a murderer. Caleb, would you like to take this part?

I'm laughing because it's unlucky for you. Yeah, it's unlucky for me because this is the funniest part of the whole doc. Don't laugh. Okay, yeah, sorry. I'm sorry, guys. I'm sorry, guys. He's already giggling. He's already cracking up.

Cleo Tilda Romero Pacheco 55 was one of Silvia's good friends. She was known in the local community for selling ice poles. Ice poles? But didn't have any close relatives in the area. What is an ice pole? I assume, well, I assume that it's a stick with ice on it, right? Like a ice pop? Is that what you guys call them? Ice pop?

I call them, yeah, yeah, ice pops. Popsicles? Is that what you're talking about? I call them icy poles. I don't know what you guys call them. Icy poles? You're making this up. Australia's not real. Icy poles. Icy pups, icy poles. That's the worst one. Between you saying rubbish or calling a trunk a boot or whatever. Ice poles?

What the fuck? We call them icy poles over here because it's like a company name. Ice poles are a name for popsicles in different regions. It's icy poles, goddammit. It's interdimensional cable is what it is. This isn't real. You're making shit up. You guys should visit Australia. You'll love it here. That's AI. It's not AI. That's my childhood. I'm editing the document right now. I can't take this. No.

Go icy poles. Icy poles. Popsicles. Popsicles. But didn't have any close relatives in the area. Popsicles is such an 80 year old thing to do. Shut up. Icy poles. Icy poles. That's just insane. It's a pole made out of ice. Frozen treat. What do you want from me? How about frozen treats? How about that, fellas?

I can settle on frozen treats if you want. I'm leaving popsicles in the dock. You selfish man. I'm American. I don't know how to compromise. Yeah. That's a good point. Sylvia, at this point, having believed in Santa Muerte for two years, believed that if they sacrificed an adult woman, they would secure an even greater blessing from Santa Muerte.

Cleotilde was lured into a remote location where, according to Sylvia herself, she was asked to pick up a 20 peso note from the ground. When she bent over to pick it up, Sylvia delivered an axe blow at the side of her neck. Oh my god, bro. I can't do it now. It's literally not possible. Why did you laugh at that? You laughed at the axe? I don't know. I'm sorry.

read the line and actually went to the side of her neck and started laughing. Something's wrong with me, I think. Something's actually wrong with me. Is it like awkward laughter? Is it like your way of coping with it, maybe? I think so. I don't know, because it's not funny. It's like, I laugh and then...

I'm just like, oh, wow, that's embarrassing. That's funny. I will say this about Caleb. When I was hanging out with him, we were talking about bad stuff happening in business or our personal life or whatever. And any time he would say something about his own life, he would laugh as he would say it. He was like, yeah, I had this guy steal money from me. He would be laughing through it. So I think maybe there is something in his brain that's just like...

It's like a way of coping with it. This is an actual thing. It's like a built-in cope effect. Yeah, it absolutely is. And I want to make that clear. Don't give Caleb shit. Thank you guys. But before I take too much off his shoulders, can you read the next sentence for me, Caleb? Hold on, where is it? This one. All right.

read this I don't know why I don't know something's actually wrong with me now it's like a funny thing and I it's it's I fucking got myself in a hole now all right I'm gonna do my best straight face go against your nature Cleo Tilda was hacked to death in 2009

With Sylvia offering her blood to Santa Muerte in a ritual shortly after the death. There you go, I did it. I'm so proud of you. I had a slight pause, but I kept it clean. Would you like me to read the murder section part? I can do it. He needs to learn and get on top of this. Sylvia later decapitated the body and burned it near where the family lived. Okay, see, I'm over it now.

I've got it. Very sad. Again, like very sad, obviously. I mean, we should have to say. Incredibly, obviously. Yeah. Obviously. It is, of course. The only funny part is Caleb's inability to read something heavy. But like a woman who knew the family was lured out and then tricked by Sylvia and horrifically murdered. Axed to the side of the head, hacked to death, and then the blood given to Santa Morita. There's no...

There's nothing, and I say this completely factually, there's nothing funny about what happened, okay? The more you say that... Of course. I know.

It's so obvious. Everybody knows. The only person who doesn't seem to know is me because I laugh. But I don't think it's funny. My broader point here is that laughter doesn't necessarily mean you find something funny. I'm not clowning on it. It's abhorrent.

So obviously it's demonstrably abhorrent and evil. And everyone knows that. Everyone knows that. Everyone knows that this is awful, obviously. Yeah, of course.

Only six months later in June, 2010, the cult claimed their next victim. Martin Rios Chaparro was just a 10 year old boy and actually an adopted son of Sylvia Miraz. The cult believed that sacrificing a child would be the ultimate way of gaining the favor of Santa Morte. So like Cleo Tilda, uh, Cleo Tilde, I'm not sure how to say that name, uh, lured him out into a secure location and a gore. Uh, and again, according to Sylvia, she first gave him alcohol and got him drunk and

And then her youngest daughter, who was just 13 at the time, stabbed him repeatedly. Even though he was struck over 30 times, he was still alive as they took him to a sacrificial area where they horrifically cut his veins, beheaded him, and spread his blood on an altar. See, that's fucked up. Man, that is rough. Man. A 10-year-old? And she had her 13-year-old do the killing? My word, dude. That is insane. They killed the first person.

Six months earlier, right? Did they get any kind of benefit from it? Did they get good fortune or any kind of reward? Well, that's the thing about these religions. Death beans or something like that. If things continue to go well, if you're not dead, then maybe you're doing something right. But no, I would assume they were all led on the belief that we need to kill this woman as a sacrifice.

to, you know, get a reward from Santa Muerte. That's how she portrayed it to these people to convince them to do it. And then they do it and nothing happens. Nothing changes for the better in their lives. And then she somehow convinces them again to kill another person. It's like, I don't understand how, I mean, I just don't understand how it happened in the first place, realistically. But it's crazy that she was still able to convince them after that that no more is probably needed and it now needs to be a 10-year-old boy. Just evil.

Yeah, that is insane. That's fucked up. That's fucked up. See, now it's like, yeah, yeah. This is, I mean, look at the woman, too. Have you guys, I mean, it's such a weird cognitive dissonance seeing this woman and then reading the stuff that's happened. It's like very... She doesn't look like a monster. She just looks like a little old lady. Sweet old lady. Yeah. It's crazy.

Evil can take any form and shape. One month later, Sylvia and her cult would claim their last victim, another 10-year-old boy named Jesus Octavio Martinez Yanez, who was the adopted son of Ivan Martin Baron, which meant he was also the grandson of Sylvia.

Sylvia held the boy in front of her altar while the daughter slaughtered him. He was also beheaded like Martin. It came out later that children aged one to five were also present during the murder and boys and both boys knew Sylvia and would often visit her home. The first missing boy, Martin Rios, was the son of the ex-girlfriend of a man named Eduardo Sanchez.

The second boy, Jesus Martinez, was the step-grandson of Eduardo Sanchez's new girlfriend, Sylvia Mraz. Which is the main killer. It was all connected. So she, because the first kid she killed, she had adopted. And then the second one was her son's adopted son. So they were adopting kids to bring them in and sacrifice them? Essentially, yeah. It seems like that was what was happening.

which is just how can you be around like she's sacrificing family members essentially there was a woman in the um in uh portugal in the 1800s or 1700s and she the place that she lived in uh mount arayo i can't remember exactly but uh

And where she lived, they, they, there was these foundling wheels and these, uh, like baby pickup spots. It was like right as those were invented. So people, when they didn't want their children, instead of just leaving in the meta doorstep or whatever, they would put them in these little things and people could come and adopt the children.

And the government would give you $600 and cotton. And she would adopt a child, kill it, take the money, take the cloth, and then adopt a child, kill it. And she turned it into a business, essentially. And I think her name was Louisa, but I can't... I literally talked about her yesterday in a video, and I already forget her whole fucking name because the video was two and a half hours long. Do you think it's like...

The only time she struggled was the first murder. And then after that, it just became transactional. It's just like, yeah, it's a weird, horrible thing that people do and can do. I guess, I guess, like, I mean, that speaks to how

I don't know, like desperate. No, like these lower socio-economic situations where they're literally in survival mode. And that's not an excuse for obviously killing people. But it's like, yeah, it brings out the monsters in people, I think. Yeah, it's like a, I don't know if it's a lack of perspective or just like some kind of weird sort of,

Like, I don't know. It's like your perspective prevents you from having inhibitions to do things that normal people, you know, wouldn't, just wouldn't do. It's really strange. Yeah, I often, I mean, there's been movies and stuff about this, I think, where if people

People of middle income or whatever, kind of like normal life, were then thrust into lower socioeconomic situations. How they would change, how their mind frame of things would change, and how they would deal with barely surviving day to day. And what kind of ethics and morals they would discard in order to continue surviving. Obviously, there's no benefit here. She's just...

sacrificing children for fundamentally insane reasons. Right. Fundamentally insane. She's a fanatical follower. Yeah, the most...

reading you can give her is that she was mentally unwell, right? But because otherwise it's entirely just like, oh, well, I'll start killing children, I guess, because it's fun. Because like you said, she wasn't getting anything out of it. But maybe she did for some reason think that, you know, Santa Marta demands a sacrifice and she has to sacrifice people for her.

And that's what led to this. And I suppose there are elements. It's very tragic. I suppose there's also elements of confirmation bias that could be possible in situations like that where she sacrifices a child and then a week later, like she is able to convince herself of some fortuitous situation happening is connected to the sacrifice itself. Mentally, if she's that mentally ill that she's

sacrificing children and murdering and doing horrible things, then I, again, like in those situations, I think you're mentally ill enough to be able to do anything. Like there's no kind of rationality to be found at that point. I recommend you guys check out, I found her name, Luisa de Jesus. I've got my little research document here. It was in 1748 in Coimbra, Portugal. She was fucking insane.

Absolutely. We might do an episode on that later at some point. Yeah, definitely. Murder 33. That's what she was convicted on. 33 murders. Horrible. Did she get the rope? It was an abusive spectacle. Her death was an abuse. She was sentenced to an abusive spectacle. What is that? 1700s type shit.

What is it? I have never heard of that before. Death by abusive spectacle. That's horrible. They cut her hands off, burn her with hot irons, and then she was garroted to death. Which is like a... Which is how Agent 47 takes out people, right? Or is that something else? The Renaissance garret is like a thing that's on your neck. The garret is like a wire, right?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It's just like the idea of closing off your neck, your windpipe. But this thing is like a chair you sit in and there's a big metal bar that goes across your neck and then they tighten it and it crushes your neck. So it's an actual instrument, essentially. Yeah, bitch deserved it.

Oh, yeah. I mean, but yeah, police were alerted by the local community that the young boys, Jesus, Octavio Martinez, Yanez and Martin Rios Chaparro had not been seen in a while. And they immediately began to investigate after the disappearance of Jesus. It took two years to fully investigate the case. And Sylvia Miraz and her family spiked interest with the police due to their suspicious behavior. And police had directly observed them performing strange rituals.

There was a breakthrough when talking and pressuring a family member revealed what the cult had actually been doing. The bodies of Cleotilde and Martin were found during an unrelated investigation nearby to where Sylvia and her family lived. And Jesus' body was actually found buried in the dirt floor of one of Sylvia's daughter's rooms. Holy fuck. They were literally living on top of the body for like a year. That is insane. Wow.

In March 2012, Sylvia and her family were arrested, resulting in Sylvia receiving a 180-year sentence. And while the rest of the family members received six years of incarceration and the minors were instead sent to a youth detention center. What do you guys think about that? What do you guys think about just a kid murdering somebody? The mom...

Whatever fanatically... It's so difficult. It's so difficult to even think about that. I mean, if we're being as literal as possible or charitable as possible, I guess, children's minds are developing, right? Of course. They're literally so vulnerable to external pressure and forces and stuff like that. So for it to come from not just the mother, Sylvia, but a group of adults...

A whole family of adults putting that pressure on someone that young. Yeah. I mean, it kind of had no chance, sadly. But yeah,

I think from that point, once the damage has been done and they've committed this evil act, the only option is to try to put them through a system of rehabilitation, which I don't know if youth detention centers are the best option for that. But I don't think they should be put in adult prisons or anything like that. I think that's probably a step too far. I think they deserve...

deserve a chance of rehabilitation. So it's like that 13-year-old kid, that daughter who stabbed the guy to death, like, yeah, that's something unspeakable, it's evil, but at the same time, like, of course that only happened because of the mother's influence. Exactly, that's my point. It's like, where do you draw the line on punishment versus that? Because, like, clearly the 13-year-old's probably a danger to society, but how long do you hold them to determine if

you know, if they can be rehabilitated. Yeah, it's just a hard place. It's like if there was an eight-year-old there or a seven-year-old there, it's like, yeah, that's not the kid's fault. But that kid is going to need copious amounts of rehabilitation. They're still going to need an insurmountable level of rehabilitation to get to a place where they have a chance of a normal life. Not even the guarantee of a normal life, just the chance of a normal life to go through something like that.

There's a in the 1600s, there was a kid, John Grenier, who was a a he was a werewolf boy, a lycanthrope boy. He claimed to turn into a wolf and kill people and kill like young girls and children stuff. He was 14 years old and he didn't have like parents, really. And he was like a little livestock kind of he dealt with livestock and stuff like that. And he.

the other kids work with him and he would kill them. And there was like a bunch of deaths that he admitted to. And like, there was corroborative evidence that he admitted to during a hearing and his punishment was to be sent to a monastery. Um, and he claimed that he spoke with the devil coming in with the devil and the devil came to visit him at the monastery. And I think he died when he was like 20 years old, but that was his, his punishment was to be sent to a monastery and he would be killed if he ever left the monastery. Essentially that was in the 1600s.

That does sound like something from the 1600s. I don't know if I agree with that. But I also don't think that rehabilitation is possible for someone like that. That seems like someone that is demonstrably evil. It's just rare to see these children that we're talking about today, it's an example of just like, without the mom, they probably wouldn't have done anything evil at all. And then there are kids who are evil, though. That has happened before, where there's like...

murdering children who cannot be rehabilitated just like adults there's something that's not right there's something broken up there not by external forces or external pressure from adults just something that is not right there in the development of the child that has caused them to be that way I don't know it's way beyond my pay grade to come up with ideas about how to rehabilitate children I don't know what you do in that situation

Nothing. Jose La Renga, a spokesperson, a spokesman for the Sonora attorney general's office had to say this. They thought that by offering the blood, they would be protected for some time. According to them, Santa Muerte was going to tell them where the money was. They all identify themselves as fanatic followers of Santa Muerte. So they thought that Santa Muerte was going to tell them where money was going to lead them to wealth.

Yeah, like some kind of pirate treasure map, basically. That's fucking crazy, bro. Yeah, maybe it's like, well, this definitely points that the mother then had some delusion of it. She was like, oh, there's a figure named Santa Maria to exist, and she's powerful. Maybe if we send enough souls to her, she'll give us wealth in return. That's insane.

2009. 2009. What was popular at the time in 2000? Was Pirates of the Caribbean. When was Pirates of the Caribbean? When was that really popular? Shit. Pirates of the Caribbean was insanely popular from when it came out until even the last one. I think they're just like kind of, I think the first two did insanely well. And the first one came out what in 2002? Yeah.

Yeah, I think 2003 through to 2011. I'm just thinking when it says tell them where the money was, I immediately think of a pirate treasures map. Maybe she got the idea from that. She was watching a Johnny Depp flick and she's like,

This seems awesome. Santamuerte will be my in for this. What a dumb bitch. Wait, wasn't there... Am I going crazy? Was there that kind of iconography in Pirates of the Caribbean at all? That kind of Santamuerte imagery at all? I don't remember. In Pirates of the Caribbean? Yeah.

Yeah, oh! Isla... There's a whole region in the Caribbean and in the movie series, Isla de Muerte. Isla de Muerte. The Island of Death. Yeah. I think that's most of the movie, or the Isle of Death. Yeah, I think maybe that's just Muerte showing up. Yeah.

So, R. Andrew Chestnut, chairman of Catholic Studies at Virginia Commonwealth University and author of the book, Devoted to Death, Santa Muerte, the Skeleton Saint, said that most Santa Muerte devotees consider killing a, quote, satanic aberration of devotion, end quote, and that books about Santa Muerte don't mention human sacrifice.

However, he noted that some followers are extreme, continuing by saying, quote, with no clerical authority to stop them, some practitioners engage in aberrant and even abhorrent rituals. So there has been a bunch of other...

like unrelated murders to this case that still have been kind of loosely connected to Santa Muerte and worship of Santa Muerte. So I think the greater theme here is of a religion that was formed out of, you know, from this figure of death that has then kind of splintered off into these different factions and people interpreting and using the religious subtext for their own

you know, for their own interpretations, basically. Well, so what he's saying there, where the devotees consider it a satanic aberration, means that normal devotees of Sanctum were to view it as an evil thing to kill people, right? Mm-hmm.

Like, even if they worship Santa Muerta, then maybe you're sending life out of order by taking the decision of someone else's life into your own hands. It's a wicked thing to do. So the majority of converts to Santa Muerta view this kind of thing as evil. Yeah.

Yeah, but just because it's the saint of death doesn't mean she approves of killing one another. Yeah. That's what most people believe. So again, this isn't representative of the broader Santa Muerte worshipping community. It's more so just because there's no central church that really, you know,

lays everything out and there's these different little splinter groups that splinter off from that main group that then do their own thing there's bound to be people that you know overstep the the belief system itself and and do these aberrant and abhorrent things which is sad uh but it's nothing that hasn't existed in every other religion really when you think about it yeah um

In a police mandated process where journalists were allowed to view and question the murderers themselves, which is a thing that happens in Mexico, like that they kind of like

parade them out and let journalists ask them questions when they've been, what do you call it, charged with their offenses. Mraz told the reporters that she had believed in Santa Muerte for more than two years. Quote, Santa Muerte was going to offer us money. End quote. Mraz said when questioned. When she was asked if she thought she had received anything, which is a good question to ask in that case, I think, she replied with profanity before saying, quote, what can she give you? Question mark.

Nothing. End quote. Interesting, huh? You normally don't see someone who believes in like this saint or religious figure at the end being like, oh yeah, well, you know what? It got me nothing. She didn't get anything for it. You normally see like full devotion. So that's fascinating to see her at the end. Like it didn't get me anything. Yeah. Well, I think, so I think she still believed in it before that, but this was the moment where she's like, well, this got me nothing.

that's what i'm saying yeah you normally don't see them like after being arrested just like be like well i guess nothing came of it yeah yeah i like the um after everything girl all of a sudden like oh my apologies i didn't i like the sick metal cover that she's holding in that image these yeah so there's an image here of her walk thing yeah and she's just

She's holding a poster of Santa Muerte, which is, I don't know why they let her do that. It looks like a sick vinyl record for the poster. It has a bunch of text on there, but I can't read it. It does really look like a meatloaf album cover or something. It does look like a meatloaf album cover. It says amen at the end. I assume it's a prayer. Yeah. So yeah, I guess she's holding the poster then. Is she still subscribing to the faith then?

Even though she's saying, no, I feel like they, I feel like, uh, they made her hold that for the picture. She doesn't look very happy about holding it because it looks like this was after the arrest and everything. And you have the armed guards on either side. The journalists were like, hold this up, hold this up for the pick. Yeah. Yeah. I guess they're like mocking her with it. Mocking her. Yeah.

which I mean, she deserves even if what's interesting is, okay. So her killing wasn't out of devotion or a love to her God or anything like that. It was so that this figure could show her money. So really she killed three people for just outright to be like, well, maybe I can find money because of it. Right. Which to me almost makes it more evil than doing it out of like love to some higher power or whatever. Yeah.

Well, it's still love to a higher power, but the love is motivated by greed. Is it? Or is it just like, oh, if I do this for the higher power, it'll give me money? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, both can be true, right? Well, it's like you're not worshiping Santa Muerte because you love Santa Muerte or you think it's a being deserving of worship. You are worshiping it so that you can get money out of it. Yes. Yeah.

I wouldn't consider that a love for the entity. I would consider that like, oh, I can manipulate this religion to get what I want. Yeah. Which again is mentally ill for sure. But also there's like, even on top of that, there is a level of like wickedness even more so. Yeah. Greed on top of it. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely agree with that. I think that's pretty...

Pretty succinct. Yeah. Okay. Well, that was Santa Muerte, the sect of Neko Zari. I'm sure there was some more information. It was very hard to research this one just because of the lack of text and videos out there about it. But I think we did a pretty good job covering everything. Do you guys have anything else to add? No, I think that was good. Yeah, yeah.

It was good. Good episode. Good episode, boys. Yeah. I mean, yeah, very bad. I'm proud of Caleb for only laughing twice. Yeah. It's, uh, it really seriously, it's like when there's attention pointed to it and Jackson, I think especially when you're like, now make sure you don't laugh hysterically. And I'm like, yeah, I, I know. And then it becomes very funny. Yeah.

And then it becomes very funny to me. It's like when you're in church or a funeral and your mom's like, don't laugh. Then immediately everything becomes funny. Yeah. It's hard not to. You look over at your cousin who's just like staring at you and you're like trying to like contain it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm bad at that. I get it. I get it. I've been there. It's just funny because now I get to be the cousin. Yep. My cousins.

Alright, you guys, please shout out your stuff again. What do you want to promote at the moment? What do you want to direct the cult towards? Eat Sour Boys. Yeah, Sour Boys. Go to sour.gg and also this goes up what, Friday?

No, Saturday. Saturday, yeah. Saturday? Okay, well you'll have like 24, I don't know if there's any tickets left for Dallas or if they're with the sales. We might be sold out. I'm actually not sure. Hold on. It says there's some general admission left. There may be like 10 left or something like that. So push it, bud. Hypothetically. Shout them out. Last minute. X1entertainment.com

slash stalker tour if you are in the Dallas area and want to see a movie Sunday Sunday evening like I think it starts airing at 7 or 8 one of those come check it out we've got a few tickets left you'll be a good time it'll be a question and answer segment afterwards so stick around for that but yeah thank you all for the support you've shown on the tour it means the world yeah it's been killer it's been awesome yeah it's fucking awesome dude

All right. That's going to do it for this episode of Red Thread. Thank you very much for listening and supporting the show. You can help us out by spreading the word to fellow people who you think might be susceptible to joining our cult, which

which would be great. So send it to friends and stuff. We've got audio links down below so you can listen to it on your platform of choice. Spotify is great to listen to it on as well as iTunes. So you can listen to it while you're driving around, cruising around town, chilling, listening to, you know, your favorite cult teachings over here at the Red Thread. We really do appreciate the support. It really means the world. Thank you very much for joining us. And I'll see you next time with the Red Thread. Bye, guys. Bye. See y'all. Bye. See ya, boy.

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