32: Casey Anthony | Red Thread
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No incredibly witty or captivating intro this week, I'm afraid, listeners. It just does not feel right. This week, we're tackling one of the most confronting, aggravating, and depressing topics we'll probably ever cover. The case of K-pop.

Casey Anthony. To many people, that's a name they probably already know, a story they've probably already heard, and a woman they probably already despise. And those people who already know, probably already know why an introduction doesn't feel right this week. So instead, I will simply welcome you to the Red Thread.

That's this. This is the Red Thread. We spend an hour or so each week diving as deep as we can into whatever mystery, conspiracy, or cold case that interests us for that week. And so that's what it is. I'm one of your hosts. My name is Jackson, and I'm joined by the goon and the oomp. And today we're covering the Casey Anthony case. Let's dive in. You boys, do you feel my frustration already? Fucking...

man you sound really happy about it yeah i'm not happy i hate her i hate her how much do you guys know surely you guys have i've heard of her you know you've heard about it yeah have you looked at chile it was all over the news right it was all over the news over here i can't see anthony who's that what are you talking yeah i'm familiar with her i'm very familiar with the case um

I I've watched like documentaries about it. Uh, of course, stuff like JSC video about it and stuff like that. And I do share your frustration, uh, Jackson, and I'm probably going to get upset here in a second, but it's just, I'm just so used to it. It's depressing at this point.

So your mood is kind of flattened now? You don't have that aggression like I do? It's just like, life is pain, you know? Sucks to suck type thing. But I will probably get fired up as I remember some of the details and whatnot. But yeah, I'm very familiar with this. Egregious miscarriage of justice. Yeah, I think I am... Like, the anger is my way of coping specifically with how frustrating it is

I don't think that feeling will ever go away for me. I don't think this one will settle into that place of just being a grey level of, man, this frustrates me. I always get fired up about this case because it's just such an obnoxious, as you said, failure of justice, I think. And it's very unfortunate.

Caleb, how much do you actually know? Just to put us all out on the playing field. I remember it a lot when I was a kid, I think. Is this the same thing that happened when I was like a young man?

uh, I think it was like 20, 2008, I think. Okay. Then yeah, then, then yeah, I remember my mom watching it a lot and, uh, I was playing G mod, so I don't really know a lot about it. And I, I've only really started to go down the true crime rabbit holes over the last couple of years. So, uh, I'm forced, I know her face. I know generally what has happened. Uh, uh,

But I don't, I'm unaware of the miscarriage of justice aspect of that, this entire thing. So this is new for me. While me and Jackson were suffering, Caleb was too busy making Borderlands mod tutorials. That is exactly what was happening. You're older than both of us, though. So we were younger than you, and we knew about it, but you were older and cooler and playing G-Load. You guys were like seven or eight years old watching the news, what?

Well, no, we heard about it. Just like my parents would talk about it. It was like a big issue at the time. It wasn't as big, but it had like a similar like OJ Simpson thing to it where everyone was talking about it. It's our OJ. It was like an old news story. Even over here.

Yeah, it was like, are you familiar with, what was the other girl's name? Jodi Arias. Do you remember that one? Jodi Arias. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. That one, that's another case that had a similar tone to this one that everyone was talking about it, talking about the evidence and stuff like that.

But she was found guilty. She was found guilty, yeah, as opposed to... This one is egregious for the lack of justice, definitely. Interesting. So before we go too deep today, just want to quickly throw this in here. This episode is brought to you by our friends over at ZocDoc and AG1. More from them later on in the show. If you want to follow along with the info, show notes will be linked in the description, as well as links to the iTunes and Spotify, so you can listen along to the show wherever it is you find yourself.

We'll reach you wherever across the globe, as long as you download the episode, if you don't have Wi-Fi or whatever. Yeah, we'll find you wherever you are. And a big thank you to everyone for watching. Please send the show to whoever you think would be interested in this kind of stuff. It really helps the show out. And now let's continue. Who wants to read this kind of synopsis start? I'll hit it. I'll hit it. Yeah, go for it. Get angry.

The tragic story of Kaylee Marie Anthony, a missing child found deceased, is one of the most highly publicized and well-known cases of the modern era. It's a case that is most likely a sore spot for everyone who knows of it, as the supposed murderer was the one person who Kaylee Marie Anthony was met to be able to trust implicitly, her mother. Kaylee Marie Anthony found herself on the stand defending herself in court while the public screamed outside her new name, the worst mother in America.

The outrage and anger would go unabated, however, as the decision of the jury left the shocked world divided and outraged. At the center of it all, a young girl lost her life and was robbed of her future and the person who she trusted the most. The person who betrayed her was left free. Let's dive into the tragic case of Kaylee Anthony and her mother, Casey.

Yeah, and I'll jump in here to say it's important, obviously, to say that Casey Anthony was deemed not guilty. And we all have our own opinions. Maybe not OompaVille Caleb yet. Maybe you don't have your own opinion yet since you were too busy playing Gmod, but you'll come to find your opinion soon, I'm sure. But yeah, everyone's got their own opinion on this. I think most people are probably in the camp that Isaiah and myself are in. And it's going to be very difficult, I think, to act impartial, right, Isaiah? Yeah.

I don't know what you're talking about, man. Let's hear her out. She had a chance and she won. It's so frustrating. Yeah. Yes. I'm confused right now. So I'm excited to see what, uh, what, like, how is it possible that if that, that's what, if she's responsible for that, how did she. Oh man, you will see, you will see. It's very frustrating. And you at home, if you don't know this case yet, you will see soon. But yeah, I kind of wanted to go into this kind of like, uh, what do you call it? Like,

I'm unbiased, but I already know the case. I already know what happened. I know the information, the evidence and the interrogations. Yeah, you're unbiased, but it's impossible for me and it's probably impossible for Isaiah to be. So apologies on that front. I can't hide it. If I'm going to be genuine, I got to be genuine.

Well, that's what the Australian says. Me and the United States, who, you know, has to appeal to the U.S. legal system. I'm, you know, new to this case. Let's see what she has to say. Let's see who's guilty. Welcome to another episode of the Red Thread. Welcome to another episode of the Red Thread. Okay, so if we say she's guilty and she's been proven in a court that she's innocent, could we be held legally? I mean, you could get sued. Could she say we're slandering her? Yeah, I'm sure she'd be the type to sue for defamation. I don't know.

I'm just saying that in my opinion, the jury's finding was wrong, but that's entirely my opinion. If you guys at all feel like she may have been guilty and she may have, you know, done

dodged the guilty verdict or whatever you can just say in jackson's opinion in jackson because i think i'm safe over here yeah yeah they definitely use me as your shield they've never extradited anyone ever that's never happened extraditing is a made-up concept it's make-believe it's not even real there's no way there's no way they can extradite me for that exactly that's right buddy they sure can't

Keep at it. I love how every single case we've dived into, I have been at risk during it somehow. Yeah, because if you get shipped in from Australia, I'll get to see you and it'll be great. Yeah, there we go. That'll be the upside. That'll be the upside, yeah. So Casey's innocence is still highly debated, but everything we go over in this article, this document that we've put together, link in the description, is information readily found online and while...

I may espouse individual beliefs about the evidence and proceedings. The courts have clearly come to a decision, so that can't change. And she is legally innocent. Uh, just keep that in mind with everything that we talk about. Okay. Um,

Caleb, would you like to go over Kaylee Anthony? Sure. Before we go further into the case, I think it's important that we take a step back and honor the life of Kaylee Anthony. Kaylee was born August 9th, 2005, and lived in Florida with her mother and grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony. She was described as a vibrant and cheerful child who loved spending time with her family. She would be 18 years old today if she was still alive.

It's very easy to get lost in the outrage, anger, and hatred without remembering where that all stems from and why it exists in the first place. Kaylee Anthony deserved better.

Well, that's weird to think she'd be 18 now. It's sad, isn't it? It's so sad. This document was written by my girlfriend. So yeah, I think there's a lot of outrage on her part as well that's probably found in the document itself. Big thank you to her for putting together the information and writing the document as well. She's an important member of the Red Thread crew, so I really appreciate that.

Isaiah, would you like to start with the disappearance? Absolutely. So the police and the world first learned of Kaylee Anthony's disappearance when Cindy Anthony, the maternal grandmother of Kaylee and mother of Casey Anthony, phoned the police on July the 15th, 2008, notifying them that the two-year-old had been missing for around a month.

You may immediately ask how it could possibly be that a two-year-old had been missing for a month without the police being involved and directly contacted until this point, a question that will remain dominant throughout this case. Let's take a look at the actions of Casey Anthony during the previous month to better understand how it was that everyone in her life was completely unaware that her child was missing.

So the doting grandparents, Cindy and George, last saw Kaylee on the 15th of June 2008 when she and her mother, Casey Anthony, left the family house in Orlando, Florida. Casey has told her parents that she was taking her to her nanny, a person named Zanada Zanny Fernandez-Gonzalez. Fernandez. Oh, sorry, my bad. Fernandez-Gonzalez.

Casey was apparently working as an event coordinator at Universal Studios at the time. So Kaylee would often be with Zanny the Nanny while Casey was at work. Zanny the Nanny sounds like a character from like Borderlands or something. You're right. Yeah. Zanny the Nanny. Yeah.

Well, don't worry. If I remember right, Zanny didn't exist, right? No. Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah, she made her up. This is one of many, many lies. What the fuck? Okay, so the grandparents... Because Caleb's here and learning all this. The grandparents last saw her in June and Casey's like, hey, I have to work. And then she gave... Supposedly, Casey gave her daughter Kaylee to a nanny. Zanny the nanny, right?

Yeah. Zanny the nanny, yeah. Kaylee and Casey never returned back to the family home with Casey. Wait, sorry. Kaylee and Casey never returned back to the family home with Casey choosing to live with her boyfriend. She had told her boyfriend that Kaylee was with the nanny whenever he would ask about where she was. Yeah, so there was about a month period here where, you know, they moved into the boyfriend's house, but the boyfriend also never saw Kaylee. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, immediately as soon as she moved in. So I'm imagining myself in the boyfriend's perspective, right? Like, there's a month time period where Casey is now living with him and he knows that she's got a daughter. Like, how obtuse do you have to be to not be like, hey, like, where's your daughter? I know you've got, like, a two-year-old daughter. So, Jackson, there's this cool thing called being horny that turns off your mind's most critical thought. Yeah.

Yeah, but that usually ends once you're not horny anymore. You underestimate the ability of some men. I underestimate the refractory period of some men. Correct, yes. It kicks in very quick. So, yeah, she's living with him for a month. Every time he asks, where's your daughter? She'd be like, oh, she would say, oh, she's with the nanny. Zanny. Yeah, basically. Zanny the nanny.

Her parents wanted to speak with Kaylee often as they usually spoke to their granddaughter all the time. But now when they asked, Casey always seemed to have an excuse on why they couldn't meet up or talk over the phone. Over the next 31 days from the 15th of June through the 15th of July, Casey went on what one could describe as a bender to end all benders.

Casey partied, spent time with her friends, went to nightclubs all over Orlando with her boyfriend, Tony Lazaro, and even got a tattoo on her back that said Bella Vita, which means beautiful life. Casey appeared to be happier than she had ever been, laughing more, and her friends didn't notice anything abnormal about her behavior. Remember, this is all while Kaylee Anthony was supposedly with her nanny. Kaylee was, in fact, missing during this period of time.

Casey, on the other hand, was carefree and happy, something that she wrote herself in one of her journal entries dated June the 21st of 2008. She wrote, quote, I completely trust my own judgment and I knew that I had made the right decision. This is the happiest that I've been in a very long time. I hope that my happiness will continue to grow, end quote. Yeah, so, okay, so let's take into... This is crazy.

I know, it's crazy. It gets worse, Caleb. It gets worse, trust me.

Let's operate under the assumption that Kaylee isn't missing. What could she possibly mean by I completely trust my own judgment and I knew that I made the right decision? And this is the happiest that I've been in a very long time. I don't know. Leaving her with Zanny wouldn't make any sense. Zanny the nanny. I made the right decision. Hiring a nanny. If I didn't see my mom for months and was going on a bender, I would miss my mom greatly.

let alone like be happy that I like if it's how can I just don't understand how this is all going to connect. I really don't. I don't get it. You just wait, buddy. We're about to get there. All right. So when Casey originally left the family home, she had asked her parents if she could borrow their car, a white Pontiac Sunfire, which they agreed was OK as she allegedly needed to go on a quote business trip for her work. The car was later found in a parking lot, completely abandoned and out of fuel.

The business responsible for the area called the owners of the car, Cindy and George, to let them know about their car which had been there a pretty long time and it needed to go. Understandably, they were upset. When they went to check the condition of the car, they found it messy and with a very strange decaying smell. George himself was a former police officer and instantly knew what the smell was. Blood. Notably, when they opened the trunk, they found a bag of rubbish.

This triggered a showdown between George, Cindy, and Casey immediately as the suspicion and panic had peaked with the discovery of the car. Yeah, so remember, during this time period, George and Cindy were basically for that month where...

where uh casey had been partying basically and left the home they had desperately been trying to get into contact with you know uh with the door with a granddaughter with their granddaughter kaylee trying to like ascertain how she's doing and where is she kaylee was just like blowing them off we've never met zanny the nanny she's got uh she's got kaylee for a full month that's crazy

So, when asked, Casey repeatedly told her parents that Kaylee was with Sandy the nanny, but George and Cindy weren't buying this answer anymore. Desperate, Cindy Anthony demanded that Casey take them to Kaylee. If she refused, she would contact the police and have her arrested for stealing the car. This was an attempt to put pressure on Casey, as they were understandably desperate for some answers as to where their granddaughter was. It worked.

Casey told her parents that Zanny the nanny had actually taken Kaylee and she hadn't seen or heard from her for the past month. The damn broke. How fucking badass is that of the fucking grandparents, by the way, that they're like, yo, we're going to we're going to call the cops and tell them that you stole that car. If you don't, you know, you don't fess up and tell us where our granddaughter is. Wow. I respect that. I respect that. That must have. I mean, it's obviously a awful situation for them to be put in in the first place. Of course.

having to put that kind of pressure on their own daughter to get those answers. But they were desperate for some kind of information about their granddaughter. And this is extremely early on, too. And I assume without them knowing that the daughter, they couldn't see her journal, they couldn't see her partying and all this stuff. They're just like, where is she? All this other stuff is... Just like the typical doting, obviously concerned grandparents that haven't seen their

granddaughter in a full month which is obviously very irregular for this family they were living together before that so immediately cindy called 9-1-1 again reporting that her granddaughter was missing and had been for a month and that her daughter was finally admitting it she also told 9-1-1 about the strange smell that was in the car when they found it it's safe to presume that casey's parents were immediately suspicious of their own daughter why else would she lie constantly for a month

However, their primary concern was to find their granddaughter through any means. Let's take a minute to listen to the 911 call. Yeah, so this is the first 911 call made by the family. So Cindy, the grandmother, first originally called the 911 operator. And this is what happened. 911, what's your emergency?

I called a little bit ago the deputy sheriff. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. We're talking about a three-year-old little girl. My daughter finally admitted that the baby's in store. I need to find her. Your daughter admitted that the baby is where? The baby center took her a month ago. My daughter's been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can't find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself.

Okay, what is the three-year-old's name? Kaylee Anthony? Yes. How long has she been missing for? Is your daughter there? Can I speak with her?

Okay. So that was the first call from Cindy Anthony, the mother, the grandmother, sorry. And I want you guys to note just how the desperation in her voice, right? Very emotional, very confronting. She's clearly desperate to, you know, get some kind of

uh, law enforcement help in order to find, um, the daughter. And remember, remember like this entire month, she's been led astray by her own daughter being told like, no Casey, uh, Kaylee Anthony's fine. She's just with Zanny the nanny. Okay. Don't worry. Um, and then she's finally the damn breaks and she's told, well, actually Zanny the nanny's kidnapped her and I don't know where she is and I can't get into contact with her. She's been looking for her.

That desperation on the grandmother's perspective is understandable, right? That's completely understandable. Well, Caleb, that's what Casey said. Casey's like, okay, actually, I haven't told y'all this. She's kidnapped. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, like, Casey at this point is playing it off as, like, she's been worried and looking for the daughter. I know I've told you all that she's with a nanny, but I didn't tell you she's been kidnapped by a... So weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Extremely weird. Imagine, like, leading that lie on for a month. Insane. And then...

To your closest loved ones, by the way. I can't understand it. And then I wanted to use that as an example because now we go over to when Casey Anthony enters the phone call because her mom Cindy hands it over to her to talk to the 911 operator. And I want you to hear the juxtaposition here. So this is clip two. Okay, it's very scary. They want to talk to me. I'm going to be quiet.

Hello? Hello? Yes. Can you tell me what's going on a little bit? I'm sorry? Can you tell me a little bit what's going on? My daughter's been missing for the last 31 days. And you know who has her? I know who has her. I've tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment, about a minute. Who has her? Do you have a name?

Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. So to me, to me, she sounds like, like no desperation in her voice whatsoever. It's like she just woke up basically. Irm, uh, you're not going to believe this. So that is, I mean, like a psychopathic person just off the bat. Like how, I just don't, I mean, this is ridiculous. This is insane. The,

To go from the frantic, desperate words of Cindy Anthony, the grandmother, to almost this cold, just completely calm kind of personality of Casey Anthony. The juxtaposition there is just extreme to me. It's just wild. And that's the mother. That's the mother of this missing child. 31 days. Yeah, gone for 31 days.

All right, so clip three. Clip three, all right. No, no, I was about to say, now we have clip three, which is the same 911 call, correct? Yeah, same 911 call, just kind of the end of it, just throwing it in there in case it's important. Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. Who is that? Babysitter? She's been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years. Why are you calling now? Why didn't you call 31 days ago?

What does she mean by other resources? Who does she go through? The fucking Avengers? What the fuck, dude? I'm putting together a team.

She fucking shined the bat signal up in the sky each night. She's like Nick Fury going to all these investigators. I'm here to talk to you about the initiative, the Avengers initiative. And so Xanny doesn't exist either.

Yeah, I mean, I kind of jumped the gun on that a little bit. I should have waited for it. But yes, Zanny does not exist, if I remember correctly. How is this even possible? There's got to be so much more that this person's not in jail. All we know now, like at this point in the story, is that she said, oh, my daughter is with a babysitter named Zanny. And she's told that to her parents and her boyfriend. Yeah.

And now the 911 operator is because she's been forced to by her parents. And now the 911 operator, yes, because she was being confronted by her parents. And now she's like, oh, well, this babysitter I said she was with actually kidnapped my daughter.

So it's like, okay, what does that mean? And then we get into the rest of it. So I'll finish up this last paragraph for this section. When you listen to this phone call, the difference between Cindy and Casey's tone is drastic and very noticeable. Cindy appears to have the genuine human response to knowing that her vulnerable grandchild is missing and has been for an extended amount of time. You can hear the frantic, desperate, and panicked tone in her voice. It's a very human and painful response.

On the other hand, when Casey is brought on the phone to explain what is happening, she herself sounds very calm and relaxed. A strange juxtaposition to her mother's pleas for help and an even stranger contradiction when you consider it's her almost coldly talking about her supposedly missing daughter. There are people who like, there are like Casey Anthony defenders out there who will say stuff like, well, Casey's known about the kidnapping for a while. That's why she's not surprised and stuff. But again,

Again, just like the 911 operator's first question was, why didn't you call us earlier? And she's like, I have my resources. I have a team. Me, who works on a business trip for Universal Studios, knows an elite group of trackers. So if you have a kid or someone's kidnapped and you just don't call it in,

There's no, there's no possible, there's no possible reason why you would ever do that. Uh, to not report a missing child. Uh, it's super suspicious. I don't know. Of course. So that, that's what I'm saying. Was that what this case is? Like, I just, I'm so confused as to how this is even possible. Is it illegal? Is it illegal to not report a missing person? Isaiah is going on every watch list in the country right now. Oh my gosh. Uh,

Yes, in some states it's illegal for a child's caretaker to not report a missing child to the authorities. For example, in Louisiana, revived statutes, blah, blah, blah, states that failing to report a missing child can result in a fine of up to $2,000 and imprisonment for up to one year.

But again, who cares about the legality of that when morally, like you're a mother, why would you not report your missing child immediately? Some states require children over 13 to be reported within 24 hours and children under 13 to be reported within 12 hours.

That makes sense. Like, I'm imagining myself... I'm putting myself in the shoes of a mother right now. Like, if I had a daughter and, like, I was at the shopping center or something, like, the grocery store, and I lost my daughter for, like... In the grocery store, I would immediately desperately try to, like, lock that store down. Actually, okay, so this is interesting. The name for...

An unofficial name for bills proposed or passed in U.S. states that make it a felony for a parent or guardian to fail to report a missing child is known as Cayley's Law. That is so fucking good. I think I've heard that. That rings a bell in my mind. I think that that's some of the context that I know and have heard about in regard to this story.

That is so poetic. Maybe poetic's not the right word, but it's kind of nice considering it's an example that it seems like the entire country knows that Casey Anthony did this shit and was a maliciously evil person. We haven't even heard her side yet, Jackson. I...

So it's impossibly impartial here. I'm getting angry. It looks like the strictest state for its Alabama, which is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Wow. Wow.

I think that's deserved. Because there's no conceivable reason why you would not do that, right? Why you would not report a missing child. And I mean, it's also like if there was like extenuating circumstances, like maybe your kid went on like a field trip and you expected them to be back the next day, but they're not. Like obviously this would be tried in court.

Yeah, that would be a mitigating factor. Yeah, exactly. But if it is like, if there are no mitigating factors and it looks guilty, then yeah, I could certainly see this being a useful law in cases. Yeah, I think in this situation, it's like a sniff test kind of thing. This situation here does not pass the sniff test. Yeah. Right? This is just

weird especially a month right yeah i mean so far this is so confusing to me i don't understand how this is gonna play out it gets worse buddy don't you wait but before it gets worse it gets better uh because here come the red thread sponsors all right so back in so now we get into the investigation side of everything and this is where it gets messy being sick is hard you've

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With her tone and attitude, especially on the 911 call and the bizarre nature of the case, he already had reasonable suspicion about Casey. She was interviewed as a witness as opposed to as a victim, with the detective intending to find contradictions and lies about her testimony. However, as this was still a sensitive case at this point in time, he still aimed to treat her decently. Instead, he was met with cold and snappy responses,

Casey's body language exuded irritation. She sat far back into her chair with her arms and legs crossed. Yeah, so we know a lot of this, by the way, from testimony from the detective during the trial, as well as interrogation footage that was released. Yeah.

At the same time, a search party was being urgently put together to try and find Kaylee. At this point, there was still some hope that she may be alive and missing and that Casey's assertion that Kaylee had been taken by the babysitter was at least partially honest.

Detectives, on the other hand, would have subconsciously known that this was incredibly dangerous territory, as in missing children's cases, the first 48 hours are critical and as time goes on, within days, the percentage of missing child being found safe and alive plummets.

Ruminating on this fact would have been disastrous for morale and they had to act in the assumption that Kaylee was still alive, they had any chance of finding her alive, and so they began searching desperately, following whatever threads they could identify, speaking to the media and locals trying to locate anyone who may have known something. These were desperate times and it didn't take long for it to become a widespread effort.

Everyone was understandably energized and highly motivated with the singular goal of finding Kaylee. Everyone except Casey. Back at the police department, Casey was telling Yuri the story of Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez. She was in her late 20s and around 5'5". Zeni was part Puerto Rican and had long black hair and brown eyes and was a single woman who also lived in Orlando. Zeni had worked as a nanny for many years and cared for Kaylee for around a year and a half.

Casey found Zannie through a friend of hers named Jeffrey Michael Hopkins, who also had a child with whom Zannie cared for. Jeffrey and Casey worked together, and with Casey having met Jeffrey at Universal Nickelodeon, so the arrangement was that Zannie would look after both Kaylee and Jeffrey's son, Zach, together.

Okay.

How can you just refuse? I actually forgot about the Nickelodeon part of this story. I forgot about that. That's one of the craziest parts of the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot about this whole rabbit hole. It's so fucking wild. Keep going, Caleb. I'm unaware of this rabbit hole. Oh, you wait.

You'll get there. Trying a different tactic, Yuri asked for contact information for Jeffrey Hopkins, but was quickly informed by Casey that he left Universal Studios and the state months before, and his number was also disconnected.

It should have at this point, if not far earlier, become very obvious to those closely involved that it was highly suspicious that the one and only person who didn't seem to care if Kaylee was found or not was the person that they were currently interviewing and the mom of Kaylee, the caretaker. That is ridiculous. Yep.

It's wild. But listen to this story. Listen to the story she's put together. Okay. So yeah, I met Zany. I met Zany because she was a nanny for my friend Jeffrey Hopkins. And then Jeffrey's kid and Kaylee would be caretaked by Zany at the same time. And I met Jeffrey at Universal. Oh, what's that? You want to phone her? Well, he disconnected it. Oh, you want this other guy's phone number? He's gone. He also disconnected it. He goes to another school. Everyone left. Yeah.

It literally is that. My girlfriend went to another school. Detective Urie continued to press for information. On the day Kaylee went missing, Casey dropped her off at Zanny's house as normal. But hours later... Hours. But hours later... I don't know why I said... I pronounced the A. Hours later... That Virginia boy. Yeah. Hours later, when she went to pick her up, there was no one there. Not Zanny, Kaylee, or the other two roommates who lived at the apartment.

Not immediately worried, Casey tried to call Zannie, but her phone was now out of service, conveniently disconnected. She then went to all the places that Zannie would go out with Kaylee, such as a nearby park. Casey told Yuri that she spent the evening pacing and worrying about her daughter's whereabouts when she went to her boyfriend Anthony Lazaro's apartment before where they had been staying.

Which but just like it's like okay And what did you do for the next three weeks I went out and parted my life off You should read my journal entries I was having the time of my life Do you not see my tattoo that says Bella Vita I was having the time of my life What a bitch

After a so-called horrific day, Casey tried to relax at Anthony's house. She didn't actually tell him about Kaylee being missing, just like she hadn't told her family of Kaylee's disappearance either. She did allegedly talk to two people, however, one being Jeffrey Hopkins, her former work colleague, who she wanted to check if he knew of a way to contact Zannie, but he didn't. The other was a woman named Juliette Lewis, another work friend who Casey claims worked with her at Universal both as event coordinators.

This was a spark of hope in the eyes of Yuri, who asked Casey for her contact number. But Juliet had recently left Universal Studios and moved out of state in the past few months, and her number was now disconnected. What the fuck? So...

Is that, is this just like the world of landlines pre-cell phone? It's 2010, it's not that long ago. - It was 2010. When you move, when you move, you don't fucking change your number, do you? Like your mobile number. - Yeah, you're just gone. - I've had my mobile number since I was like 16. - What the fuck? - You just quit existing, yeah. - I don't know how this is, this is like early 90s.

This is weird. That's what she's acting like. It's 2000. This is 2008. So there's no excuse. That's what Caleb's saying. It sounds like she's described. It sounds like the late 80s. His car phone was disconnected.

Yeah, true. The phone angle. But surely, like, even just, like, offering up names to the law enforcement is so confident on her part because surely they have, like, registries of, you know, citizens and where they've lived and stuff. Keep in mind, keep in mind, everything we're listening right now was in the first interrogation. She's saying all this in, like, the span of a few minutes, right? So you'll... Well, no, it was a day. It was a day. Okay, sorry. The first day of the interrogation. Yeah, yeah. Wow, this is crazy.

I just don't know why she said this all, Isaiah. Like, surely she knew how this would turn out. - Oh, the level it gets to. Yeah, just, I'll wait, I'll wait, I'll wait. - Well, surely she did. She's innocent.

According to the jury, right? Yeah, true. What the fuck? Yeah, you're right, Caleb. You're right. We're the idiots. This is a good woman who's just being beat down by the man. Yeah, yeah. Everyone she knows has left the state and disconnected their phones. Every person connected to the case was apparently now in the span of a month out of state and disconnected from the grid. In addition to that, the detective noticed the contradiction. How would she have spoken and confided in her if she had moved out of state and had a new number that she didn't know?

And didn't Casey just say that they were work colleagues? There was an awkward silence in the room as Casey realized that she directly contradicted herself.

Casey told investigators that she felt if she got the police involved that something horrible would happen to Kaylee and felt she could do it all by herself. Yuri was becoming even more suspicious and wanted Casey to take him to Zanny's apartment where she would look after Kaylee so he could look around and see if he could find something. Despite saying that she would take Kaylee to the nanny's house five days a week, Casey couldn't remember the address.

They came across a house, but when Yuri looked inside it, it was completely empty and looked like it hadn't been lived in for a long time. It was dirty and there were cobwebs everywhere. He asked around the town, but no one knew of Zenaida or her mother who apparently lived around this area as well. Or Kaylee. A maintenance man even said that he never knew anyone called Zenaida to ever live in the building that Casey had taken him to. Wow. I mean, that's just like...

I don't know. This is crazy. This is all, Caleb, this is all a reasonable mistake. Who among us has not fabricated a whole person that our child's been with for the past month? Multiple people. It's just a moment of, what's the thing Boogie says all the time? She's disassociating. Disassociating. That's true. She doesn't know what's happening. It's true. It happens. It happens.

Come on, guys. You've got to understand. Every time someone moves, they cease to exist now. They're gone. They're a different dimension. I know no one anymore. That's how babies think. Object permanence. Yeah, exactly. It's like, oh, it's gone! Fuck! My mom! What happened? Yeah.

If you walk out of Orlando, Florida, you walk off the face of the earth. You don't exist anymore. That's so funny. Fourth dimensional. It was a dead end. And Yuri confronted Casey for wasting valuable police time. Yuri and the other detectives were becoming frustrated, but kept going with even Casey's parents telling them that they were suspicious of Casey and wanted to keep pressing her for information. So they turned to her place of work, Universal Studios.

When Yuri called the number of her boss, it didn't go through. So he decided that he would take Casey and let her guide him to the place of work and go from there. This ended predictably with the group arriving at Universal Studios and Casey leading them aimlessly around the park before giving up and admitting that she did not work there anymore. What the fuck? Yeah, dude. The entire... Okay, so think about this. She says...

Oh, the babysitter? I work at Universal Studios. So I met them through a work partner. And then, you know, our kids would play together. You can't talk to either of them. The babysitter also doesn't exist. Also, I don't work at Universal Studios.

Dude, like the level, the level of just like insanity that this... Okay, you're right, Jackson. I got fired up. I'm thinking about it again. See, it happens. I'm trying to calm myself down. The fact that this case ends where it does is so frustrating, but yeah. It does. It's...

Because it's so obvious. It's so obvious. She never worked at Universal Studios. If I recall right, she never worked there. Not just, I don't work there now. She's so absurd. She gets to the point she's leading detectives through hallways. She was like waving at people like she's walking through hallways like, hi, hi. And then she's like, okay, I actually don't work here. I lied about it. We're going to hear that in a second. Yeah.

The investigators were really over it by now. They confronted Casey more directly, telling her that they've been respectful this whole time, but she's been lying and she needed to tell them what happened to Kaylee. Yep. So now we come to the next set of clips. We're going to play this confrontation that was released to the public by the police department. Clip four. So clip number four. Okay. Ready when you are.

So this is the, what do you call them? The law enforcement agents confronting Casey at Universal, by the way. So Casey has led them to Universal Studios where she claims she worked.

Two of them around the facilities where she claims she worked and this is what happens. Since I left you this morning, I've gone to every address that you've told me. I came over here, I've already talked to all the employees. I found out all these names that you're giving me are people that either never worked here or have been fired here for a long time ago. Okay. So where we are right now is in a position that doesn't look very good for you. Because obviously I know and you know that everything you've told me is a lie. Correct? Correct.

Not everything that I told you. Pretty much everything that you've told me, including where Kaylee is right now. That, I still, I don't know where she is. Sure you do. I absolutely do not know where she is. Let me explain something. Looking at you, I know that everything that you've told me is a lie. I am very confident, just by having talked to you the short period of time, that you know where she is. I legitimately have not seen my daughter in five weeks. I didn't let anything happen to her. All right. Wow.

So I chose that clip to start this off to kind of show that the police, like they wouldn't do this to a, you know, someone they suspected was an actual mother with a missing child, like someone who they perceive to be a victim. That would be obviously very callous and insensitive and they would probably get chewed out or fired for being, you know, dicks to a victim. So,

so they were pretty confident right at this point that something was amok here casey wasn't being forthright and she was very clearly because she was clearly lying to them about everything well it goes from like okay her daughter's missing and she's stupid for not calling us whatever into like what every single thing you've told us is wrong so what are you yeah and you keep telling us new lies your waist your your daughter's missing she's been missing for a month and we're meant to be finding her and you're sending us out on wild goose chases to

to places where you know that you don't have any kind of connection to what's the thing they say in court permission to treat the witnesses hostile your honor yeah yeah the gloves are off yeah yeah alright clip five so frustrating dude what about Jeff he said Jeff worked here until about two months ago

No, he hasn't worked here for quite a while. 10 months? How long? It's been at least 10 months. He got fired in 2002. He hasn't been an employee here since 2002. Eight years. Or six years. We put a lot more together than I think you realize we put together. Oh, Jeff? He has been here 10 months. 2002. 2002. That's the last time he was here. That is unbelievable, dude.

Yeah, so, yeah, they're like, you're lying. He hasn't been here for, like, almost six years, basically. And you're saying that you were just doing it a few months ago. Perhaps I was wrong. Did Casey work at Universal for a time? She did. She did, but she lied about her position. So she said she was an event coordinator with Juliet. Juliet, the other person, being an event coordinator. In actuality, she was a...

kind of like a ride operator or a salesperson you know the person at the end of the ride who sells you your pictures yeah taken on the ride she was that you know the job that you would expect like a high school student to have so she was no offense to all of our our picture or ride operators out there the audience love you yeah but i mean it genuinely is like a high school yeah it is it is i'm playing i'm just playing um yeah but yeah yeah um but

But she was that right and she was like talking the big game being like, yeah, I'm actually an event coordinator here at Universal. I know everyone here. Let me walk you through the offices. And I'm just imagining what that must have been like for the other employees there. Like this chick walks in. Who is this bitch? With police officers like, you know, by her side. Yeah, I work here. She's like saying hi to everyone. Hello guys. Yeah, this is my office. What's up? Yeah, they're like, okay.

She's been like, yo, where's Jeffrey at? Jeffrey hasn't worked there since 2002. It's so insane. When she was like 16 years old. Yeah. How old was she when Jeffrey was working there? 2002. She was pretty young. She probably would have been like 16. Yeah, she would have been like 18. 17, yeah. Yeah, around that age. Yeah, so she would have been 16. Yeah, she was 20 in 2006, so...

Yeah. Yeah. All right. This next clip, clip number six, more confrontation. I just like including these clips because it's the, you know, it's the police interrogators grilling her. And I find that very cathartic. So I'm going to fucking play them. We're not stupid. Okay. And what you're doing right now is you're, you're treating us like we're stupid. Everything that's coming out of your mouth is a lie. Everything.

Either you give Kaylee to someone and you don't want anyone to find out because you think you're a bad mom, or something happened to Kaylee and Kaylee's buried somewhere or in a trash can somewhere and you had something to do with it. Either way, right now, it's not a very pretty picture to be painting. You're painting yourself as a very bad person. It needs to end. The truthful thing is that I have not seen my daughter the last time that I saw her was on the 9th of June. Tell us what happened to Kaylee. Tell us what happened to Kaylee. I dropped off Kaylee.

And that's the last time that I've seen her. I dropped her off. Where did you drop her off? I dropped her off at that apartment. No, you didn't. That's exactly where I dropped her off. No, you didn't. The apartment that was empty and filled with cobwebs, by the way, just to keep people up to date. Which, in her defense, from what she's presented so far, I do believe she would drop her daughter off in an abandoned building full of cobwebs. She's an awful person. She is an awful person. But here's another thing that from watching all these interrogation videos and stuff, at least from JCS,

To both you, Caleb and Jackson, if I was to ask you, like you didn't know me and I was like an investigator, and I was like, I think you killed your girlfriend. I think you killed your mom or something like that, someone close to you. Your reaction isn't, I don't think I did. I don't think I did. I don't know if I remember that.

If you're being accused of something that you yourself know you didn't do, the natural human response is to confront them. No, screw you. What are you talking about? Get out of my face. I want a lawyer. You know, like all that stuff. You're not like, no, I don't. I don't think I killed my wife. I'm pretty sure I didn't kill my daughter. I don't remember that.

The level of calmness on Casey's part really implies some kind of level of methodical angle that she's playing for, right? There's definitely some element to her that's planning this. So far, we have circumstantial evidence, and it just seems like she... That's how it seems. Seems like she may have done it.

Keep in mind, a whole field of line, just constant line. Just constant line. Yeah, yeah. About everything.

At this point, to give her credit, as in to give the case credit, there is no evidence, right? There's nothing directly tying her to the disappearance of her daughter. Well, hold on, hold on. There is a car she took from her parents that was found abandoned with the smell of death. But at this point, it hasn't been analyzed forensically. I'm saying circumstantially, like, that looks bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And she has no excuse for it And now every time she is being asked To try to help herself out of that scenario It's a lie She just lies

And also factoring in missing a child for a month and never reporting it is once again circumstantial evidence. So yeah, that is nothing concrete tying her to it. Yeah. There's not, there's no like fingerprints, no like body found anything like that. It's all really bad. Is that what this is? Is that it's just like, there's no actual hardcore evidence and it's all circumstantial. Wait, wait, wait, wait, we're not there yet.

How is it even possible? Let's go. Where is it? Where am I going? Where am I at? Clip seven. Clip seven. All right. Clip seven. Clip seven. More confrontation first. Yeah. Clip seven. Clip seven. What you were saying when you told us, so you kind of just accidentally told us you had an office here and we needed to be here, or did you purposely mislead us? Which of those two is it? I purposely misled you. Okay. So you purposely misled us. This was all an attempt to help find your daughter, right? That makes sense to you, correct? Yeah.

What the fuck does that even mean, dude? What did you say? How old is she? She's almost three. She's almost three. What do you think, she's going to take a cab? How do you think she's going to get here? She's with someone else. Yes.

Yeah, like, what is her argument? What is her rationale there? Just the, just like, okay, everything, we're trying to find your daughter, correct? Yes. And everything you've told us is a lie, right? Yes. Why? In a backwards sort of way, it makes sense. What? What?

She seems psychotic. She's too smart for you. She is. She does. I mean, look at her mugshot. I mean, like, all right, let's say she killed her daughter, right? Obviously, that takes someone who's a psycho. Yeah, of course. She's going to lie about anything at that point if she's the one who killed her daughter. Yeah, 100%. All right. So anyway, after that, there's a point in it where the detective asks outright, says, you know, we've been very...

respectful of you. Truth needs to come out. We're tired of all the lies. No more lies. What happened to Kaylee? And Casey says, I don't know. The detective says, you do know what happened to Kaylee. Casey says, I don't know where she is. That is the God's honest truth. So that's where she's staying. She's like, well, she's with this girl. I don't know what happened to her.

So, yeah, she was sticking to it, even though she was caught out in lie after lie after lie. She stuck to it. But we're not done with lies yet. Let's continue. All right. So with all of this, Casey was then arrested on the 16th of July for child neglect, giving false statements and obstruction of a police investigation.

So detectives were unraveling Casey's lies when they got into contact with Jeffrey Hopkins. It turns out that while he didn't know Casey, he had been fired from Universal Studios three years before Casey ever worked there.

And he didn't even have a son or know any nanny called Zenaida. What the fuck? So this is the, for people who are maybe a bit lost at the moment, this is the person, Jeffrey Hopkins was the person that Casey Anthony had said to investigators, you know, Jeffrey Hopkins was the one that connected me with Zenaida and me and Jeffrey, our children, his son and my daughter would hang out while they were, you know, being looked after by Zenaida. And,

And now Jeffrey Hopkins has been found by detectives and he's said,

I don't have a son. I don't know Zenaida. And I haven't... At best, I'm an acquaintance to Casey. I've never really been close to her. That is mind-boggling. What happened is... It is crazy, right? In her mind, she's trying to put together a line. She's like, oh, there's this guy I know who worked at Universal. So I'll just say me and him worked there at the same time as a kid. It's almost like she doesn't expect this. And what it is, I honestly think, is Casey's probably had an entire life of being a...

what's the word for someone who can't stop lying uh compulsive lie yeah she's had a whole lifetime of being a compulsive liar and she's never been caught out for it she's just told like white lies her entire life and it's always worked out so she's doing it here and the first time someone looks into those lies it falls through but she's not good at lying because she's never had to be good at it she can just lie and it works

Well, not just that. She's caught out on the lies. And now the only solution to her and the predicament that she's in is to create more lies. So she's just compounding lies on lies. So it's just like stacking on itself. She can't be thinking about these lies in any way because it's like a child. It's the most infantile lying ever. Well, I've got this guy, this guy, this guy. But also they don't exist anymore, so you can't contact them. And then they contact them. And then they contact them because they're the fucking police.

Yeah, she stupidly gave them an actual real name that can be traced or whatever. Like, what did she, again, what did she expect would happen when telling this lie? She's like, she gave them a name. Like, what are you doing? So, Jeffrey later testified that he and Casey were just acquaintances and not very good friends, and he never moved far away. He called her statement, quote, fiction.

Also, Casey has never been an events coordinator, but just a kiosk worker. The people sell the after-run pictures and now was unemployed. So, yeah. El Bozo. So, yeah. Sucks to suck. She even lied about her occupation. Like, what does that even have to do with anything? Like, that is absolutely proof that she's a compulsive liar that's been lying her entire life. Like, there's no need to lie about that. Nothing. It doesn't even help your case. Right. This is clip eight.

This is Jeffrey Hopkins on the stand. How do you characterize your relationship with Miss Anthony? More or less acquaintances. Weren't very good friends? Not very good friends. Did you ever work at Universal Studios? I did. When did you work at Universal Studios? Approximately 2002. How long did you work there for? One year. Did you ever work there at the same time that Casey Anthony worked there? I don't think so.

You don't recall ever seeing her there? Never. Did you ever introduce Casey Anthony to a woman by the name of Zenaida Gonzalez? I did not. Did you ever use Zenaida Gonzalez as a nanny? No, sir. Do you have any children? No, sir. Have you lived in the Orlando area consistently since 2002? Yes, sir. Have you ever lived in Jacksonville? No, sir. Have you ever lived in North Carolina? No, sir.

No, sir. When was the last time you spoke to them?

How are we going to ask her? Yeah, so she even lied about that. She lied about when she last spoke to him as well. Imagine how fucking confused he must be. This person who's only mildly acquainted with her is now having to testify about her. Yeah, what? I don't know. I don't have a son. I live in Tampa. I didn't move out of state. Also, I have an iPhone. Sorry.

Yeah, you can contact me anywhere, actually. That's actually how phones work. It's crazy. I have a mobile phone. So fucking wild. All right. So, Circuit Court Judge Stan Strickland set her bail at half a million dollars.

A statement from Judge Strickland reads as follows, quote,

Not a bit of useful information has been provided by Miss Anthony as to the whereabouts of her daughter. And I would add that the truth and Miss Anthony are strangers, end quote. That's actually pretty hard. That's so hard. Steaming from the judge. Yeah. Yeah. That was before even like any guilty verdict or anything. He's just slapping her down. Yeah, that was just like, she was a witness. She just became a suspect at this point. That's what he says. He's already dishing them out. That's great. Love it.

It wasn't long before Casey was released, however. A man named Tony Padilla paid 10% of her bond. Tony, the nephew of bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, found that if he bailed her out that he and Leonard could help assist in finding Kaylee.

This ended up backfiring directly in their faces as Casey did not want to talk to them and didn't provide any information to help them find her missing daughter. Now, it should be noted here, this sounds insane. Like a bounty hunter bails her out, what? You have to keep in mind a lot of this stuff about the...

like her interview and her line to the police so much and stuff a little of that is known but not totally public oh yeah so because like it's still an ongoing investigation at this point yeah so many people at this time still assume that she was obviously um you know

All the headlines say is mother arrested and daughter's disappearance. Right? Yeah. So they're like, okay, well, we'll track her down. Right? That's our job. So we'll bail her out, try to find her daughter. And as soon as they bail her out, she does not want to talk to them. She doesn't cooperate in any way. She doesn't cooperate at all. Did they get dog on it? They tried. Dog with a bounty on her.

The public, now aware of Kaylee's disappearance and the confusing, at best, actions of Casey, were angry and would come together outside of Anthony's home to shout and scream about Casey being a horrible mother.

Casey had a friend at the time, Amy Huizinga. Huizinga? Huizinga. Huizinga sounds too much like Bazinga. I'm sorry. I went straight to Big Bang Theory. Yeah, I'm sorry. Who pressed charges against Casey for writing fake checks in her name. Yeah, so at the same time, Amy, Casey's friend, says that Casey is writing fake checks in Amy's name.

So it was back to jail for Casey for the fake checks this time. It was around this time that Casey finally hired a lawyer, Josh Bays. Jose Baez. Oh, sorry. I read that as Josh. My bad. I am just messing it up this episode.

Jose Baez. Josh Baez. I totally just whitewashed his name. It's like Hollywood, dude. It's better Josh out from West Virginia. Josh Baez. Josh Baez from Charleston. I threw that guy in the Midwest, sent him to MIT. That was my bad. Jose Baez. Jose Baez. With Jose Baez now assisting her, Casey kept her mouth shut and didn't want to help the police anymore. Only the FBI.

Which she didn't help either, by the way. Correct, yeah. But that was her claim. That was her claim. She was like, I'll only talk to the FBI. Yeah. We just touched on the public outcry, so let's expand on what turned the public against Casey. At first, there was a lot of sympathy, understandably. It's almost inconceivable that a mother would have a hand in the disappearance of their own daughter. In fact, the maternal bond is believed to be the strongest bond in psychology.

Casey had lost her daughter, something that most people could not dream of happening. It was a nightmare occurring right in front of the eyes of everyone. This is all to say that it was very understandable why people might think charitably of Casey Anthony on a surface level. But then police released the initial interrogation footage, which we had previously gone over, which showed Casey being caught in lie after lie and acting confrontational with the people desperately trying to find her missing daughter.

Then her phone calls with Cindy and George from where she was arrested were also released. And they've become pretty infamous. In the first call on June 16th, Casey did not appear to be concerned about Kaylee, beginning the call by interrogating her mother for doing interviews and repeatedly asking her parents as well as her brother and her best friend for her boyfriend Tony Lazaro's phone number.

Honestly, watching the call is bizarre when you think about the context surrounding the situation. She is incredibly hostile and dismissive towards her parents and speaks and acts as if the disappearance of her daughter is a trivial annoyance.

"Anyone who speaks to her speaks with such humanity and desperation and it's honestly so chilling seeing that in comparison to the psychotic attitude of the selfish narcissist." Jackson. I really think she is like, yeah, those are my words. Yeah, that's me pleading through that. She is a selfish narcissist though, obviously. We will play this clip. This is wild. This is the first phone call, you know, when you're in jail and you get to make a phone call to your parents or whatever.

This is that cool. Okay. So clip nine. Casey? Mom. Hey, sweetie. Oh, I just saw your nice little cameo on TV. Which one? What do you mean, which one? Which one? I did four different ones, and I don't know. I haven't seen them all. I've only seen one or two so far. You don't know what my involvement is in stuff? Being mad at your mom while you're in jail. What? No. No.

Ugh.

I don't have his number. Um, we'll get it from Lee because I know Lee's at the house. Get Tony's number for me. Okay.

Can you give me Tony's number? I can do that. I don't know what real good it's going to do at this point. Well, I'd like to talk to him anyway. Okay. Because I called to talk to my mother and it's f***ing waste. Oh, by the way, I don't want any of you coming up here when I have my first hearing for Bond and everything else. Like, don't even f***ing waste your time coming up here. You're making it real tough for anybody to want to try to... I'm not going around and around with you. That's pretty pointless. Awesome. Christina would love to talk.

I have no clue where Kaylee was. If I knew where Kaylee was, do you think any of this would be happening? No. Anyway, you only got a couple minutes for this, so I'm not going to let you completely waste it. Here's Christina. She thinks she can get through. No, no. I want Tony's number. I'm not talking to anybody else. Hi, I'm glad everybody's at my house. Do me a favor. Get my brother back because I need Tony's number.

- Does Tony have anything to do with Kaylee? - No, nothing. - Okay, so why do you want to talk to Tony? - He's my boyfriend and I want to actually try to sit and talk to him because I didn't get a chance to talk to him earlier because I got arrested on . I just want to talk to Tony and get a little bit of-- - Casey, you have to tell me if you know anything about Kaylee. If anything happens with Kaylee, Casey, I'll die. You understand? I'll die. If anything happens to that baby.

What the fuck kind of fucking freak, dude? Psycho-pa. Holy shit. Your daughter is missing and your family is desperately... Your mom is crying. I'm so scared of her. She's like, here come the waterworks. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Oh my God. Calling you guys such a fucking waste. Oh my God. You guys are so lame. Lame. Mom.

Mom! My boyfriend's number! Fuck, dude. Mom! Okay. That's crazy. Caleb, how are you feeling? You on Team Us now? I think I hate Casey Anthony. I think I hate this person. I think I hate him. Hey, I still haven't heard her side of it, alright? Maybe she's...

Maybe she'll pull through. If only someone let her talk on the phone, then we could hear her side. Yeah, exactly. Damn those human emotions and stuff trying to find this missing daughter. It's really her parents' fault for not letting her speak her piece, I think. Yeah, for sure. It's crazy that phone call happened. And this is the first phone call that she had in prison or whatever. And her daughter is missing, remember? Missing at this point in time. That's what we understand. Missing. And her entire goal is like, tell me my boyfriend's number.

Please, I want to talk to my boyfriend and hang out with him. Give me Tony's number. Tony Soprano. Whatever the fuck his name is. Tony. Like, seriously, that's your biggest goal right now? You're in jail and your daughter is missing and you want to, you know, cyber with your boyfriend or whatever it is you're doing? Like, what the fuck? What the fuck? It's so annoying. I hate her. I hate her so much, Caleb. Yeah, this is crazy. This is insane. I think y'all are being mean. Let's hear her out. Alright, so. There was...

There was a second phone call on July the 25th, which was also very tense. Her parents were still extremely distressed about Kaylee's disappearance and were pleading with Casey to tell them what happened. But Casey appeared almost attached, still saying she didn't know what happened and was being wrongfully accused.

She almost seemed combative when her family were asking questions and trying to get to the truth. On the third call, August 14th, Cindy was pleading with Casey, utterly desperate and upset, but Casey just remained the same. In fact, she seemed to be happy to talk about literally anything else other than Kaylee.

These calls really exemplify the lack of apparent concern for Kaylee. In fact, all they do is highlight how manipulative Casey is, as whenever the topic turns to her and her plight, she becomes emotional and distressed, but only for herself. Whenever the topic turns to Casey, she becomes an empty vessel devoid of any human emotional or human properties.

And we have clip 10. Yeah. So this is the one with actual footage. It's a long one, but I think... Oh, I've seen this one before. It's great. It's a banger. We have to make Caleb watch it. Okay. This is crazy. This is four minutes, 50 seconds. We're going to be silent. If you guys have already seen this, probably skip ahead five minutes. But yeah, we'll play it now. Hi. Hi, sweetie. We've been watching you for so long. You haven't? I love you. I love you too. Hi. Hi.

We've been seeing you sitting down. We forgive anything that you've said. Oh, hold on. Can we turn the volume down? Yeah, you can probably hear it. She's so jovial. What's that t-shirt? I didn't get a chance to ask him, you know, other things. Kaylee's picture's on the back. Is it? Can dad show me the shirt? Turn around so she can see. It's the Never Lose Hope Foundation. Do you see it? I can see her picture. Have you seen me?

And then it has the information on how to contact. Okay. Casey, you don't realize that the whole United States is looking for Kaylee. I know that, Mom. Her cover's going to be on People Magazine in a few days. Okay. Good. Okay. Oh, good. Are we going to be able to find her, do you think? I hope we can, Mom. I believe her. Hey, Mom, I get it. You're so obsessed with my daughter. Gosh. Raise your eyes up a little bit.

There you go. So now look straight up so I can look into your eyes, darling. Thank you. I need, you know, I need to do that. It's okay to cry, Casey. It's all right, love. We've all been crying. Do we have any pictures of Sandy's apartment? Ali and I already talked about this. I don't know. It could be on the desk at home. I don't know.

What is your, I can't get into your, um. I gave Lee everything already. I gave Lee all of the passwords, everything we could possibly think of all over again. I want to get some video clips of Kaylee because the video clip with grandpa is really helping people. Still pictures don't show her justice. No, they don't show her personality. Right. And we need to show her personality. So I need to make sure we get that password. Yeah. I gave Lee the password. Do you want to speak to your father now?

Sure. Okay. Hey gorgeous, how you doing? I look like hell. So the only time she cries is when it's about herself. You really need to keep your spirit high for all this. I have. I haven't been crying while I've been in here. Well, you know something? I've been trying to read books and do other things to keep my mind off of stuff. Well, you know, I want to be able to reach out and hug you and give you the big Papa Joe hug.

But you know, we've got to get that little girl back any way we can. And we're doing everything we can. That's my only concern. I gave Lee a statement. I want him to speak to whoever in the media. I just wish we couldn't talk about my daughter. He's going to give them that quote. You guys are being so annoying. Tara from Michigan. You mean Mark's psycho ex-wife, Tara? Yes. Listen. People like Tara. People like Jesse who are maybe trying to help. Even Christina, God bless her.

I don't know what the hell they're talking about. I want you to know I want to take your pain away from you. So you can tell me anything. I know that, Dad. I miss you, sweetie. I know that. I miss you too. I wish I could have been a better dad and a better grandpa, you know? You've been a great dad and you've been the best grandfather. Don't for a second think otherwise. Well, you know, you... You and Mom have been the best grandparents. Kaylee's been so lucky.

Kaylee is so lucky to have both of you. I can't even put into words how glad I am that she's had both of you. And speaking of Kaylee, where is she? Yeah. You know, it goes without saying, you know, our house is empty without both of you there. It's empty. All the little things we took for granted, we miss them so, so much. That's exactly how I feel. All your little things and all her little things, it hurts. We're not there anymore.

Mom and I are just going through the motions, you know?

I ate coleslaw today. What does that have to do with anything? Come on. You probably ate a lot of things you never used to eat before because when you're hungry, you'll eat. Because she has to talk about her. She can't function about anything else. Grits? I don't do grits at all. It's terrible. Well, you know what? You're going to eat what's in front of you. That was a cold line by the grandma at the end. You know what?

yeah shut up you're gonna eat what's the front you dumb idiot yeah so did you guys notice throughout that entire clip whenever the topic is anything but herself basically she's just cold she just doesn't care as soon as there's any kind of direction on her and like her her personal struggle she really plays into that yeah she builds up that emotion and yeah it's like almost dismissive

uh when it's about the like like of course everyone's talking about kaylee can we move on already look at my tattoo bella vita my life is great yeah i want to talk about grits and the food i've been eating in here it's so painful being me at the moment

Is Dog the Bounty Hunter on the case yet? Mom, mom, the tattoo's in Spanish. I'm multicultural now, okay? I'm beyond the need for one child. I have all the children of Mexico. I don't like this woman. No, she's immensely hateable. Detectives were continuing their investigation while this was happening. So let's go back to that thread now and the suspicious family card that they've been forensically analyzing.

We know that there is a strange trash bag that never got investigated as it was thrown out. And there was an unusual stain and unnerving smell to the car. But that wasn't all that was found.

The suspicions regarding the smell were confirmed after conducting air sampling. Investigators found chemical compounds consistent with the decomposing body. High levels of chloroform were also found in the boot of the car. Boot? The trunk of the car. Oh my god, no! That's an Australianism? Yeah, that's an Australianism, yeah. The boot. Along with the duct tape residue and a single hair strand, which showed, quote, post-mortem banding.

This is something that only happens after a person has passed away. When mitochondrial DNA testing was done on the strand, it linked the hair to either Kaylee or a maternal relative. Also found was Kaylee's Winnie the Pooh blanket. A reminder of the innocence of the victim in this case. Yeah, that's just... That hurts.

It really does. Yeah. Heartbreaking stuff. When they searched Casey Anthony's computer, they also found Google searches for, quote, how to make chloroform. The age-old thing that all these fucking criminals like to do is Google search the thing that they're about to commit. It's so insufferable. How stupid do you have to be? Criminals are so fucking low. Well, she's dumb at everything. She logistically shouldn't have got away with this. Hypothetically in Minecraft, whatever.

Casey's parents were active in the media during this time as they still had hope that Kaylee was alive. They pleaded to the public for any information to help find their granddaughter and who had kidnapped her. They also organized events and fundraisers, clearly very emotional throughout it all. Her parents had suspicions about Casey, but when everything went to trial, they defended her and declared her innocent. This made people upset who thought the evidence, as it was coming out, clearly showed Casey having some involvement in what happened.

It's obviously very complicated and there is a deep emotional conflict happening within the parents at this time. And it's hard to lay blame as they are also victims at the end of the day, victims of their daughter's lies and victims of a situation almost inconceivable to any other person on the planet. People, when put under this level of emotional duress, will always act in ways that are not typical of rationality. Yeah. How do you guys feel about this? That the fact that the parents defended her at the end of the day?

I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't really put it... I mean, their parents, they love their daughter. And there's like... They don't want to believe that their daughter killed their granddaughter. He's capable of that. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I feel like... Well, I kind of do a little bit because...

If you're in this situation, because they're not just like parents, right? They're being public spokespeople for this case. Like if they were just parents who are like, well, to ourselves, we don't think she did it, but they are presenting the public with a story. And if Casey isn't responsible, then there's someone else out there who is. If she's not to blame them, someone has to be. And there has to be some series of evidence. But every piece of evidence points towards Casey and them turning away from that

the narrative. It's like, well, her parents don't think she did, and that's their granddaughter. They love her, you know? And honestly, part of the reason the jury might have been swayed to the degree they were is because of testimonies like Casey's parents. So at the end of the day, regardless of how they're related, they're choosing to be a...

piece of this machine and if they act because of emotions they're still acting they still might be part of the reason she got free and at that point some of the blame has to be put on them right yeah i think that's a fair um assessment of it like i think i come from it at the angle of

I wish they didn't, obviously, because I think you're right. It did impact the case probably to some degree that these reputable people, I guess, these people that the audience or the jury is going to listen to

They have a lot of sway, right? Like you said. So it is unfortunate that they did stand by their daughter. But at the same time, I do understand that this is such a complicated situation. It's understandable, and I get it, but that doesn't make it okay, right? Yeah, that's fair. I mean, it's honestly like... I mean, this is a bit different, but there's several crimes of emotion that I understand, right? That doesn't necessarily make it okay.

You don't condone it. Yeah. Yeah. Just because someone acts out, it's like, yeah, I get it. But you still shouldn't have done that. Because again, if Casey was the one responsible for it, then her parents are complicit in getting her off. You know? Yeah. I'm wondering if the grandparents at this point knew that Kaylee was gone and they just didn't want to lose their daughter as well now.

Sure, but I mean if your daughter is responsible for it. Yeah, no, I still agree, but yeah, I mean they're going through grief. I mean you really have lost your daughter. If like, you know, I haven't had a child, so sure I can't relate wholly, but if your child killed their child, like that's something else. That's not what you thought it was. Yeah, that's unforgivable. It must be so hard to like reckon with the fact that you have birthed and like raised an actual monster.

Yeah, it's probably easier to believe that she's innocent. Yeah, I reckon there's an element of that, right? But they probably honestly convinced themselves of that because the other side is too horrible to recognize. But again, if you are making yourself a spokesperson for the case, then you have to have some level of objectivity to it other than just what you want to believe.

Yeah, I don't want to. Yeah, I don't want to go too hard because I haven't been in that situation. It's a hard situation. I'm talking from a pedestal of someone who hasn't had to go through that. Of course, I understand that. But nevertheless, the case turned out the way it did. And there were a lot of factors that built up to it. So, yeah, I agree. I agree.

So her parents ended up posting her bail too, letting Casey come back to the family home again while they awaited trial. This further upset the public and they began to again congregate outside of the family home, chanting and throwing rubbish at the house. Over the time that Casey was on bail at the house, the police had to intervene several times and contain the crowd from becoming violent.

Yeah, so everyone hated her at this time in her life. All right, so Caleb, would you like to read about the tragic discovery or I can? I'll do it. All right. I don't like this.

No. This bummed me out. I can take this if you want and you can get the next part. How's that? No, I'll take this part because it's short and then you can take the end because this is a pretty serious moment, I think. So this is a tragic discovery. Kaylee was not found during any of the initial searches, but in December that would finally change. A man named Roy Kronk was out working near the Anthony family home on December 11th when he saw a rubbish bag in the woods.

He approached and saw that it was partially open. He first nudged it with a stick and then hooked onto and lifted what appeared to be a small human skull inside. Roy immediately called 911 to report what he had found. Police quickly arrived at the scene. The body was in advanced stages of decomposition.

with skeletal remains scattered around the area, most likely from animal activity and scavenging behavior. Other bits of evidence discovered were duct tape, which appeared to be placed over the mouth and nose of the deceased, clothing and a blanket which belonged to Kaylee, and a laundry bag which the body was inside of.

A week after being discovered, a report from the medical examiner concluded that the remains were that of Kaylee Anthony's and her cause of death was homicide by undetermined means. With how decomposed her body was, it made it difficult to pinpoint exactly how she died. The media lit up in a frenzy, the public was spurred into even more rage, and on January 22nd, 2009, George Anthony, the grandfather, tried to take his own life but was unsuccessful.

So a very obviously sad moment. Just an awful, awful situation. Just in general too, for context for someone like me who doesn't really know, the big thing is that she's a terrible mother right now. That's like the zeitgeist is that the public are totally against her.

Yes. Yes. Okay. And that's, I'm sure weighing on the grandparents and everything because they're like, well, we don't believe that, you know, but everybody's like, this is terrible. Should they even mentioned how Kaylee was going to be on the front page of, of people magazine and stuff like that. Yeah. So it's just this massive thing that they cannot escape. Like their lives are everyone's lives are hell.

Yeah. And it's been going on for a while, obviously. I don't think the grandparents wanted to escape, right? They wanted to find Kaylee. Yeah, it's been going on from July of 08, right? That's when the call was made, to now we're early 2009. So it's been half a year straight of this. And then they find, obviously, undeniable proof that Kaylee Anthony has sadly is now deceased. And obviously that's just...

that's too much for George Anthony and he tries to take his own life just obviously just a very sad situation the tape over the mouth and nose bothers me a lot that just yeah that's ridiculous just the monstrosity could you imagine just like over a child man gosh it's evil and then put gosh putting gives me chills putting them in there with their blanket you know

Also, she can go fucking party and tattoo herself. A midlife crisis. Fine, you don't want your daughter. You're an awful person. You're an awful mother. Put her up for adoption or something. Give her to the grandparents. That's what most people do. Fine, go party. Do what you want. But God, how inhuman. It's beyond words. Just the evil of taking your kid and...

Just putting them in a laundry bag and then giving them their Winnie the Pooh blanket and duct tape in their mouth. How can a mother do that? Anyway, Caleb, would you like to continue from Habits of Secrecy? Yeah.

Yeah, this is crazy. I've just got to let everybody be known that this is such a crazy, unfair thing. I don't normally talk about any stuff like this. This is just such a... And this is why, because it makes me feel very... Very sad. Yeah, it's just so sad. It's terrible. This is just horrible. It's heavyweight. It's a heavyweight.

Anyways, habits of secrecy. Let's rewind to before all the tragedy and attempt to analyze Casey Anthony herself, as we might see some clues and oddities in Casey's upbringing that may potentially relate to the case. Casey Anthony was born in March 1986. At 19, she had her daughter, Kaylee, and they live with Casey's grandparents in Florida. Since her own early childhood, Casey's grandparents in Florida...

So they lived with Casey's grandparents. Is that supposed to be Kaylee's grandparents?

She had a daughter, Kaylee, and they lived with Casey's... Yeah, sorry. They lived with Casey's parents. Okay. Casey's parents. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. That's what I kind of thought. Since her own early childhood, Casey seemed to have a habit of secrecy and lying to her parents, even about small, meaningless things. In high school, her parents were excited about Casey graduating, even going to the effort of throwing her a party with all of their friends and family to celebrate. I forgot about this. I forgot about this, too. Yeah, yeah. Wow, man.

Having never been told her graduation date, Cindy and George kept pressing her to when it would be, not receiving any answer. They ended up calling the school where they would find out that Casey wouldn't be graduating as she was failing most of her classes. To save face, they didn't tell anyone that Casey wasn't graduating and even took their family to the graduation ceremony. When Casey wasn't called up and everyone was confused, they brushed it off as a mistake on the school's behalf and not to worry. Casey never went back to school and ended up dropping out.

image was everything to the Anthony's and Casey lied endlessly to accommodate the lifestyle she wanted to pursue. Oh my Lord. Okay. So let me, let me say something here. I'm not saying this to put full blame on the grandparents or anything like that. Right. But they have known their daughter to have a history of being wicked, right. Of like lying to them outright, manipulating people to get by and

And they have accommodated for that time and time again. They have given her room to lie. They have gotten in on the lie to make their image, to make things look better, right? So I don't care how much they didn't want to believe that their daughter was capable of what she did. They had background information for when Casey disappeared or when Kaylee disappeared.

And they accommodate it again. They give her room to lie. They dig into it. At that point, they should have known, and they probably did know. But again, the human brain convinces itself of what it wants to believe. So again, they can't be 100% innocent. Right? I don't think they are 100% innocent. But I just... It's so tough. It's so strange. Also, like...

The entire upbringing of Casey Anthony, with her constant lies and stuff. I've known people, compulsive lies and stuff, and their families who have known that they're compulsive lies. I don't think, even then, no one expects that person to turn out to be a murderer. Sure. Something that extreme. But when the lies start, they've seen the lies before. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, yeah. When confronted with the fact that their daughter has come to them and said...

uh some nanny that they've never heard of zenaida has my daughter and i haven't told you guys for a month because you know here's a list of excuses i mean they should have immediately known that something was you know up with and they did to be fair they did they did there there was a natural like instinct in them that was like something's wrong like something's wrong but then and george anthony even pushed the detectives again to like uh

Kind of grill her like the grandparents told the investigators to like something's not right here, please Yeah, again like with Cindy. She was the one that initially called 9/11. Yeah Yeah, this is ridiculous

So this is your third episode, by the way. This isn't usually Red Thread. I know. And people are going to be like, this is such a different, this is a change of pace. How often do you guys do real shit like this? Like crazy real shit? Well, we've done a few. Hold on. Let's get it right. Oh yeah, there was the dingo thing.

Hold on. Let me real quick. How often do we do this and Jackson doesn't know? Good Lord. Give me a second. I don't actually know. This guy. I will say this while I'm looking that up. I have found both in criminal cases like this and real life stuff, parents will often play into lies of daughters and stuff like that when on the other end, I have found they will most often condemn a son quicker. If a son was lying or on drugs or something like that, they'll tend to be harsher on them.

Well, mainly the father, mainly fathers. Interesting. They'll be more critical on the son, while they'll be more accepting of a daughter, just in experience I've had with counseling people and stuff like that. Okay, let's talk about how many times have we covered a serious real-world thing? All right. Well, hold on. By real world, are we talking trials or murders in general? Just stuff you really need to be careful of, you know?

We covered the Tylenol murders. There's the Chamberlains, which is another... A child was dead and people blamed... Dingo ate my baby. Yeah, Dingo ate my baby. A child was dead and they blamed the parents and stuff. We've covered Jonestown. We've covered OJ Simpson. That was one along this line. This just feels like another level of bad. All those feel more...

I don't want to say mythos, but they're just huge cultural phenomenons. This is a cultural phenomenon that's just the other side of evil and bad. People have been asking for this. People have been asking for us to cover this. Makes sense, I guess. I would usually, Caleb, be on the side of not covering true crime because I don't really like covering it particularly.

personally. But with this particular case, there is that kind of element of she was found innocent. So there's that element of it still being like a cult case. And we can also use it, obviously, the ad stuff for good cause as well, which is cool. Yeah, which we'll get to at the end. And also...

I know you weren't familiar with it, Caleb, but it is hard to explain how big of a deal this was. I remember for months straight, every news station was just talking about this 24-7. This was just the thing going on. Right. Yeah, it's very similar to the OJ case in that situation. Very similar, yeah. Which we did cover, by the way. Yeah, that one's just so much... There's just a lot more... I mean, he wrote a book.

said if i did you know like that that one's just more whimsical didn't casey didn't casey write a book oh i don't know i don't remember or is it or it's the documentary the documentary she did yeah she did a documentary yeah we cover that later yeah we'll go okay

Yeah. Anyways, also, sorry if you guys can hear me typing. Whenever I'm listening, I tap the shift key on my keyboard a lot because I'm like, I have ADHD. So I apologize if you guys can hear me. Anyways,

Okay, where are we? When Casey got pregnant, she kept the theme of secrecy and didn't tell anyone. The father of Kaylee is still unknown to this day. What? Many started to notice slight changes in Casey, her behavior, and growing and evolving figure. Attending a family member's wedding, multiple people approached Cindy and oppressed their surprise at Casey being pregnant, with Cindy responding that she's not. She's just retaining fluid. Or

or she's just gaining a little weight in an attempt to either hide the fact that her daughter was a teen mom or because they genuinely believe whatever lies Casey was telling her. When you desperately want to believe something, it becomes a lot easier to convince yourself of the lie. See? Yeah.

No, no, no. I was just saying, see, her parents have been letting the lies happen for so long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They facilitate it. Repeated behavior. Yeah. It wasn't necessarily learned, but it was reinforced. That's what I was going to say. Yeah, right. There you go. After so many people talked to her about it, Casey had to come clean and tell Cindy when they returned home. She was actually seven months pregnant. She was...

She was young and this was unplanned, but Cindy and George were themselves so happy and started to prepare for the arrival of the little one. They didn't tell her brother Lee until right before the birth, which he didn't take well and didn't go to the hospital to visit Casey or meet Kayla. You could tell he was kind of like little. He doesn't really like her that much on the phone call. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, also, like, imagine if right now your parents called and we're like, oh, yeah, your sister's about to have a child. We haven't told you.

Like, I'd be like, what are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Understandable. Casey appeared to not be too fond of the idea of keeping the baby, but she was far too along the pregnancy to perform an abortion. So she toyed with the idea of adoption instead. But Cindy was strongly against it. So in August 2005, Casey gave birth to her daughter, who she named Kaylee. Okay. Keep in mind, she wanted to abort it. Yeah, she didn't want it. She didn't want it.

She wasn't fond of the idea of keeping it, but the lie had gone on so long she couldn't cover up the lie anymore. So now it's like, well, I guess I have to have the kid. Yeah. Interesting. Kaylee was born a healthy baby girl early in the morning at Orlando, Florida Hospital, where they then returned to Sydney and George's house. Cindy and George's house. Kaylee would go on to be loved by those around her, and she is sorely missed by her grandparents and her other family members.

Who wants to take the actual trial? I'll take the trial. I'll do the thing. I'll read the stuff about... You'll get angry. I know. I remember. I remember being like 10 years old during this whole thing. Like, wow. Something's not right about this. Why is this happening? Initially, Casey was offered limited immunity by the prosecution in an attempt to encourage Casey to provide more information on Kaylee's location as...

At that point in time, locating Kaylee was still the priority. Since it was limited, it did not cover the serious felonies, but more so the charges of obstructing the investigation and lying to law enforcement. Casey refused the offer and kept her story about the enigmatic babysitter, Zenaida, having kidnapped Kaylee.

On the 14th of October, 2008, Casey was indicted by a grand jury on first-degree murder charges, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and four counts of providing false information to law enforcement. In response, she pleaded not guilty, and in April of the following year, it was announced that the prosecution would seek the death penalty.

The judge later ended up stepping down due to concerns of impartiality after it came to light that he had an off-record conversation with a blogger invested in the case, a man called Dave Nettle, known as Maronade Dave. He was replaced with Judge Belvin Perry Jr., who was the chief judge of Florida's 9th Judicial Circuit. It's probably about time we go over what the prosecution believed happened to Kaylee.

Firstly, they believe the motive was that Casey believed she was burdened by motherhood. She had been forced into this life, whether by the man who impregnated her or by her parents who didn't want her to offer up the child for adoption, and she desperately wanted to regain her freedom and carefree lifestyle. This is evidenced by the fact that during the period of Kaylee's disappearance, Casey would be seen partying constantly.

Prosecution claimed that Casey looked up how to make chloroform and then on the day of her alleged murder used it to render Kaylee unconscious and placed duct tape over her nose and mouth, suffocating her to death. They then believed that Casey stored Kaylee's body in the boot of the family car where it laid for several days before she disposed of it, explaining why the car had the stain mark and the horrible smell.

Casey could not get rid of the smell, which is when she abandoned the car and was picked up by her boyfriend, Tony.

Okay, so first of all, that all makes complete logical sense, right? That is application of the evidence to a motive, a consistent motive that is evidenced by her actual actions. And remember, there's just so many lies told by her that obviously imply guilt. So the entire way that the prosecution has betrayed this is so logical. Yeah, I...

was there proof that she looked up how to make chloroform yeah yeah that was in her search history yeah so what the fuck i mean like why why is this even i don't understand yeah you you'd think so wouldn't you all right her actions the jury system in america is a fickle thing sometimes oh man it's cool other times not so much

Her actions over the next few weeks solidified to the prosecution that the motive of Kaylee's death was for Casey to rid herself of motherhood as she partied and drank to her heart's content while her parents spent the month begging for her to bring Kaylee home. The trial began on May the 25th of 2011. Casey's defense team knew that it would be a tough battle as public opinion had already been set and Casey was not liked at all. So they needed a strategy, a possible scapegoat.

This would end up being Casey's father, George. The defense's story was that Kaylee's death was an accident which spun into a cover-up due to the dysfunctional Anthony family dynamics.

They argued that Kaylee had somehow, either by climbing in on her own or falling, drowned in the family pool and was discovered by George, who panicked and convinced Casey to cover this up as an accident to avoid legal repercussions and protect the family's image. That is so, like, actually insane. That's convoluted.

Here's, okay, I have so many issues with the American judicial system. One of them being that a lot of the times the defense team, supposedly, their whole thing is supposed to give the best legal representation they can, right? But a lot of the time they don't do that. They just lie. They just make up an absurd series of events or like a strange scenario that

possibly may not imply the level of guilt being accused right but this is just they made it up they can't they they had a writer's room come up with it right yeah exactly it's it's just a it's a fictional scenario that's not justice in any way that's not the best representation that is lying to a jury so that there's no evidence of anything of that of that happening there's no there's no evidence there

All it does, they use it as a way of saying, well, now that we've told you this story, there has to be some level of doubt. Exactly. And because you've got any level of doubt, you can't vote guilty because guilty is with no semblance of doubt. What if, hypothetically, another scenario happened that would have created some of the same evidence? Have you ever considered that? Take that, atheist. Has there ever been a defense in the court where they're like, well, actually, isn't it possible that aliens showed up and did it?

did it oh my god i feel like i remember something about um there was some case where they argued supernatural means but i could be my god oh my god that is crazy uh yeah so okay so yeah they so it's like okay what if she drowned in the pool and then they covered up which would still be a crime but i guess not as bad as first it doesn't make sense for him this guy george the father

Is an ex-law officer, by the way, a police officer. He knows, like, that's not a crime. An accidental death isn't a crime, right? Well, covering up the body is. Covering it up is, yeah. Your child drowning in a pool is not a crime. Maybe, depending on the scenario, it could be ruled negligence. Yeah, be trialed and blighted.

Unless it was a scenario where the kid snuck out of reasonable means or something like that. But then the line to police, probably child neglect, and what's it called? Mishandling of a corpse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the stuff that happened after, yeah. I agree. That's a crime. It's the fact that he chose to cover this all up that doesn't make sense to me. Because I would think that most people, logically, if your grandson or your granddaughter died tragically in a

you know, an accident like that, like they drowned in a pool, you would go straight to the police and, you know, try to deal with it. If your family member drowns in a pool and you call the police...

there's no crime that's been committed. If your family member drowns in a pool and you carry them around in the trunk of your car for a month and then dispose of the body in the woods, that is a crime. And he would know that. Again, he's a law officer. He was a police... To say that a cop would cover up an accidental drowning is insane. This is like just...

I just don't understand this at all. This is crazy. This seems so American, by the way. This is like the most American thing that I've ever seen. It's like the most sensationalized thing possible. It's like, oh, of course, they're just like the most vain, lying, evil, pathological people who only care about the most one-dimensional things. Of course.

Like, it's so strange. This is just, it's... Our image is more important than, you know, our granddaughter who just drowned in the pool. Yeah, that's fucking ridiculous.

Yeah, I don't buy it personally. Let's put it that way. Yeah, me neither. So one witness that was brought to the stand was Dr. Arpad Voss, who was a forensic anthropologist and an expert in decomposition. He discussed the chloroform in the car and the decomposition odor and also strongly believed that Kaylee had been in the car days after she passed away.

Casey was driving this car around for days after Kaylee went missing, so the prosecution was really trying to bring it home that she was involved in her death and still drove around the car knowing that her daughter was deceased and decomposing in the backseat. Defense tried to create doubt in Dr. Arpad's testimony by challenging his methodology and testing and challenging the interpretation of key findings, like the presence of chloroform, which they argued could be from the family pool.

They also questioned his reliability by telling the jury that Dr. Arpad didn't have a PhD in chemistry, but anthropology, intending to weaken the argument that the boot of the car contained vital evidence. Oh my god. That's funny. His degree is in something else. And what I hate is this is enough to make a jury go, yeah. As long as they say it confidently enough. Exactly, yeah. Confidently. Oh, wait a second. I didn't think about that.

Yeah, we've we've talked about this before. I think we talked about the OJ case. It blows my mind that your life is decided by the charisma effect of 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty. Yeah, that is your life. OJ, he's dead. He can't sue for defamation. He definitely did it for sure.

He's dead. We're free. We're unshackled. He did it. We can finally speak the truth. I will say, I think that that one seems more obvious than this one.

Because like, really, I think so. Yeah. Because it's like, there's more, there is a lot of evidence also that Kaylee is just a pathological liar where OJ was wearing the gloves that he murdered his wife with on TV. More direct evidence. Yeah. There's like, there's so much. And there was like cultural reasons as well, et cetera, et cetera. This is just like a really one dimensional bunch of liars who,

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's both are fucked up either way. And it's a shame that there's no, like there's just, there's no feeling of justice. No justice in either case. Yeah. Yeah. But well, OJ is dead. So.

So the courts found Casey Anthony, spoiler alert, they found her innocent. But what does that actually mean? We haven't found justice. Are we still looking for the killer? Yeah, well, it's like I said in the OJ Simpson one, after OJ Simpson, they never looked for Nicole Simpson's killer. Yeah, because they knew. Yeah, they never picked up the investigation again. They're just like, all right, well, I guess he's still out there. Yeah.

Well, they were right. OJ was still out there. Yeah. So the same that happens here. Spoiler. But anyway, as for the internet search history, Cindy actually claimed that it was her that searched up chloroform, having misspelt chlorophyll. It was proven that she was lying in an attempt to take the blame for this to help Casey. And I'm back to saying that the parents definitely have to have some level of responsibility because here we have the mother outright lying in court to make her daughter look less guilty before a jury. Is in...

And that makes me believe that they're in some way responsible. Yeah, I don't think they had anything to do with the murder. I believe that they were like, where's our granddaughter? And then Casey's like, oh, here's the car. And they caught her out in a lie. I believe all of that. But once they're like, well, our granddaughter's dead and our daughter probably did it, they just start covering up. That is 100% culpability. Because, again, Casey is found in...

innocent so it is to some degree the parents responsibility for helping that narrative in the public yeah they did only start defending her around this time though like they were pretty staunchly like trying to get to the bottom of it until this point until the point where the body was found and I guess at that point they shifted to well we've lost the granddaughter I guess let's try not to lose our daughter as well that was their mindset I would assume chlorophyll

Yeah, chlorophyll. It happens to the best of us. She says how to make chlorophyll. What is chlorophyll used for again? It's the thing in plants, right? It's what makes plants great. I know that, but why would you want to make it? To help a plant. You're not God. You're not God. You're not God. Get that off your search history. She's trying to turn herself into a plant? What does it do?

There was one piece of evidence so small but so important to the case, the duct tape. The tape showed intent of foul play with the suggestion that it was used to cover Kaylee's mouth and nose. The tape being present meant that death wasn't an accident, but that it was a deliberate action. There were four pieces of tape found, three being in the bag with her body. The defense argued the significance of the tape and that it could have been applied post-mortem.

They claim that the crime scene was contaminated anyway as Roy Cronk had moved and lifted Kaylee's head before he called the police. Something he later apologized for when he knew it was Kaylee's body. I mean, yeah, this guy did it now. He saw a bag on his property and lifted something and he's like, oh, it's a skull. That's not his fault. Yeah, yeah. Not at all. But also, like, them using that as an example that the crime scene was contaminated. What's the implication that, like, after Kaylee had drowned, like, George Anthony put duct tape on her mouth for some reason? Yeah.

Well, you got to keep the water in. Or someone put duct tape. You got to keep the water in. You got to keep her drowned. What is your implication? Again, it's just to insert any level of doubt. It is just something to convince a jury, to convince 12 people of falsehood. To try to introduce any level of doubt. They're just throwing shit at the wall. Yeah.

Defense also brought in a renowned forensic pathologist who testified that the tape being there did not conclusively indicate suffocation or intentional murder. There's no conclusive DNA on the tape to say it was the murder method without a doubt. The prosecution then argued that while Kaylee's body had completely decomposed, somehow her facial bones remained in their correct position. Something that would only be possible if it was being held shut by tape.

So alongside these arguments, the defense made explosive claims that George Anthony had sexually abused Casey from a young age, which is what had caused her to become so secretive. And it's the impetus for what turned her into a compulsive liar. They would argue a defensive liar. Wait, wait, wait. So she... Oh my God, I hate her. So her... So her... Her claims that her father molested her. Yeah, her parents are going to bat for her now, defending her against...

ridiculous uh you know the crimes that she's committed and then she turns around and accuses the guy defending her i have no doubt that a woman who would kill her own daughter would falsely accuse her dad would lie about this yeah a hundred percent she's capable of lying about anything clearly yeah it's like it's like when you corner a wild animal it's gonna scratch at anything right yeah yeah yeah

But why the father? Like, come on. Like, you could have profited a lie about anyone else. Daddy hurt me is something to tug on the heartstrings of the jury. So that's all they're looking for. They weren't looking for facts or any evidence, maybe a little bit to pizzazz it. Like, we don't know what the murder method was, but we know that she wound up dead with duct tape around her mouth. But we don't know explicitly. Just sprinkle a little of that in with, like, the story of an abused girl, and you can get someone out of jail.

What's really wild about this to me, though, is that her parents were clearly working with her to help her at this point because of the mum coming out and saying that she misspelled chlorophyll. Stuff like that, right? Defending her. And they posted her bail. She was living with them, whatever. And then she... Did George Anthony know this was coming? Did he know that this was going to be the defense? I don't know. Man, that's fucked. That's so fucked. That is crazy.

This is like really a mind-boggling case. I don't even know what the fuck to eat. Were you expecting this? No, I really wasn't, to be honest. To be honest with you, it wasn't. I generally have a naive perspective of human beings. So this is pretty sad.

It's hard to believe that anyone is capable of shit like this. Yeah, this is fucking crazy. That they live among us. Is this before or after he tried to off himself, George? This is after. After. Oh, well, that's, yeah, interesting. I was trying to defend him and give him a reasonable doubt. No, he tried to do that before it ever went to troll. Wow. He tried to do that a month after her body was found. Okay. Ooh.

George Anthony vehemently denied these allegations when he took to the stand during the trial. However, this would form the argument for why Casey did not report the incident and was detached from the gravity of her daughter being missing for the month after. Defense claimed that George helped Casey dispose of the body, and it was George who wrapped her up in her blanket and laundry bag and then took her to the wooded area near their house.

They reiterated the psychological trauma that Casey had endured throughout her life, and her party girl behavior was just her coping with what had happened.

As George was a former police officer, they said that Casey believed that what he told her was for the best. There's no actual evidence that her father sexually abused her. It was initially brought up by the defense attorney, Jose Baez, during the opening statements of the trial, but the impact this had on the jury was undeniable.

Yeah, so that's what I mean. Defense attorneys, not all of them, but a lot of the time, they're not looking to give their person the best representation or looking to defend their name in court. They're looking to make up a lie so that they can get a win. They want to get their client off by any means necessary. Even if it means vehemently lying and spitting in the face of a court. Yeah, they're expert storytellers in most cases, defense attorneys. It's a shame because a legal system obviously needs

a way to defend yourself. Obviously, that's a cornerstone of it. It's just a shame that that whole act is twisted into winning by any means necessary. And I hate that it works on juries. They can just be like, oh, I never thought of it that way. Okay. Great. Critical thinking is dead. Yeah. Yes. A lot more on George Anthony was also revealed during the trial.

Turned out that he told small lies to detectives at the beginning of the investigation. The defense brought up how when a family pet would die when Casey was younger, George would dispose of a pet similarly to how Kaylee was found. But there are also a lot of questions on why George would dispose of the body so close to their home. And at the beginning of the case, he encouraged law enforcement to keep pressing Casey for answers because Cindy and himself were suspicious of her.

Prosecution, seeking to salvage the narrative, continued by bringing up his suicide attempt and the letter he left behind. It basically told the tale of a broken man who felt he let everyone down in his life and just wanted to be with Kaylee. Oh man, that's depressing. Yeah.

But his strange behavior, lies, and the bombshell accusation of sexual assault definitely planted a seed of doubt in the jury's minds. Oh, God, here's the hard part. I mean, we've already spoiled it, but this is never easy. Here we go! Yippee! Here's the kicker. After deliberating for around 10 hours on the 5th of July, 2011, almost unbelievably, the jury found Casey Anthony not guilty.

During closing arguments, defense hammered home that there was not enough evidence to convict Casey of this crime, and if they had any doubt, they must deem her not guilty. It was, unfortunately, an incredibly effective defense by a team of very capable and charismatic lawyers.

While the evidence was there and the prosecution did a serviceable job delivering it, it cannot be denied that the defense team's efficient use of utilizing the idea of any doubt means not guilty to save the defendant was expertly accomplished. And that's also not the same. It's not beyond any doubt. It's beyond reasonable doubt. Yes, yeah, yeah. Which was not here.

When they presented their closing arguments, they definitely misused that definition. Some clever reuse of phrase. Clever wordplay, for sure. Reasonable doubt. I know. A million percent, she should have been found guilty, in my opinion, whatever. But yeah.

So yeah. Okay. So I'll take the end here. Um, let's wrap up this sad case by checking in on where Casey Anthony is now and no, not in the doxing her location kind of way. In 2021, Casey participated in a documentary called Casey Anthony, where the truth lies. That fucking frustrates me so much that she probably got paid a shit ton of money for this as well. Yeah.

This was her first on-screen interview where she directly blamed her father for Gailey's death. This is a quote. He was standing there with her. She was soaking wet. He handed her to me, said it was my fault that I caused it. But he didn't rush to call 911. I was going to say 9-11 again. But he didn't rush to call 911 and he wasn't trying to resuscitate her. I collapsed with her in my arms. She was heavy and she was cold. That's her quote.

Fuck the Hollywood producers or whoever put together this documentary and gave her all this money and let her sit on her soapbox and talk about it, this case in this way. Like it would be one thing if she was found innocent and then she just went off into some corner and we never heard from her again, right? Fine. But for her to then be paid probably a bunch of money so some streaming stats can go up and she gets to sit on a soapbox and talk about how she's the victim, that

That frustrates me so much. Didn't she... Wasn't there some headline that she announced she was going to have a kid or something like that right before this? I don't know about that. Don't tell me that, though. That will actually send me over the edge.

There's Types on the keyboard Why don't we just Throw them both in jail You know I mean why not right No loss to society none Yeah honestly Go ahead Once you're found guilty though you can't be Trial for the same thing right Double jeopardy Or is that only when you're found guilty Of that thing No you can't be tried for the same crime twice in the United States

The only way you can is if the previous trial was deemed like a mistrial. Oh, if it goes to the appeal court or something? Yeah, there's an appeal court that basically conducts a...

investigation of the trial to find that the trial was right everyone was above board there was no other hand deals or anything uh if the appeals court finds that the trial was unjust then you can there can be a retrial but if the appeals court upholds the ruling of the original trial then you can't be tried for it again yeah and you can't appeal it again uh

I know that when people are given the death penalty, they'll appeal multiple times, but I think I don't.

I don't think you can infinitely. I don't think there was any like, there was probably nothing to point out during this case where they would be out of order. I mean, there was nothing out of line as far as, there was no like judge taking a deal or speaking to reporters. A jury came to the decision on their own. Yeah, there was no jury tampering or anything like that. It was all, you know, it was all conducted in a legal manner. So it was upheld. Yeah.

George and Cindy also participated in a lie detector test in January of this year. Oh, good. They admitted that they believed... Why didn't they do a lie detector test of Casey Anthony? They admitted that they believed Casey had a part in Kaylee's death and kept hoping that she would confess and admit to what happened. She, in general, has kept a private life knowing that the public still believes that she is guilty despite the court's verdict. She works as a legal assistant...

Oh. My. Lord.

This is like clown world. I don't understand what the fuck is going on, bro. What does that even mean? She was so inspired by her own court case that she decided, I want to do this. Imagine you're trying to track someone and you get a hold of the Casey Anthony private investigation service. Oh my word. And she comes back with a bunch of info and you're like, this is crazy. Where'd you get all this? And then she just starts saying,

Saying stuff, well this person's line was disconnected so it can't really... Yeah, I can't actually fact check. Yeah, I can't actually fact check any of this. She just constantly lies to you. Defense representatives, when they're told they can't lie, they hire Casey Anthony.

So this could just be tabloid slop before I say this, but according to a 2019 article, and I saw this a few places, but on a News 9 ABC article is what I'm looking at now. According to People Magazine, a source close to Anthony told the magazine that she, quote, feels like her biological clock is ticking and knows she's getting older. And she's hoping that she can... Hold on. Casey Anthony is reportedly thinking about having kids again. Fuck you. Fuck you.

Here it is. Quote, if I'm blessed enough to have another child, if I'd be dumb enough... Wait, hold on. I had to pop up. If I'd be dumb enough to bring another kid into this world knowing that there's a potential that some little snot-nosed kid would then say something mean to my kid, I don't think I could live with that. Little snot-nosed kid. It's me. I'm the snot-nosed kid. I'm the one. God. What does that even mean? She's saying like...

Well, I'd like another child, but if I had one, I couldn't imagine if another kid said something bad, like insulted them about what I did to what they say I did to Kaylee or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

It's actually so frustrating that she allegedly killed her own daughter to escape the life of a mother and she wanted to go out partying and all that stuff and now she's feeling the ticking of her maternal clock or whatever and now she wants to have kids? Go fuck yourself. Just the absurd levels of selfishness. Again, allegedly. Just like the level of

oh well I wanted to live my life without consequence and her parents let her for a long time she lied to them about high school dropped out no consequence she lied about her pregnancy to her parents and all her family members for years no consequence she wants to go out party have fun this kid's in the way I'll get rid of the kid oh look at that I can go party drink whatever and then somehow through getting rid of the child no consequence here she is with her own network no conviction anything like that

Yep. And again, just shut up and go away. Shut up and go away. Don't give these fucking interviews that are so insufferable where you're like, oh, actually, I want to have kids now. Go away. Go away. Anyway.

Okay.

whether that be Casey or someone else you know whose life was permanently changed by this Kaylee's that's my point yeah yeah yeah like yeah okay

I think we can all have our opinions on who did it, I know I certainly do, but it feels pointless now. All that matters is that in the center of it all exists the victim, a victim so undeserving of her fate that it overshadows everything. A little girl who lost her life before it had even begun, and a little girl whose murderer never faced the justice her loss should have commanded. All that matters at the end of the day is that Kaylee Anthony never got her chance.

And that is a very sad way of ending this. I hate her stupid face. Every picture of her, I hate her stupid face. She's like, oh, what a little old lady. I can't look at her without feeling that rage boil up.

But I wanted to end this episode in a kind of a positive, let's say a positive spin on it. So money generated by YouTube AdSense for this episode of Red Thread will be donated to the Home for Little Wanderers, a nonprofit organization with the mission of supporting child abuse victims through community-based programs. So you can check them out below in the description and donate to them or a similar charity if you feel as if the charity speaks to you. I think that's a pretty apt charity to donate this episode's

Revenue too. So a big thank you to you guys for letting me do that as well Yeah, that's that's this case very sad case She did it in my eyes. I'm gonna end it on that It's Caleb. How are you doing right now, buddy? Dude, I feel like I mean, I've never I've never heard anything or filmed a video that bummed me out more than this Welcome to the red thread

People are going to be like, oh, this guy sucks. The third host, he fucking sucks now. No. This is crazy. Yeah. This is like, I just cannot believe that this is such a, I say both of them, jail forever. Jail. Everyone, jail. It's safest that way, right? It's safest that way. Yeah, it's safest that way and there's no loss. No one innocent is, no one who's truly innocent is going to not go to jail. Mm-hmm.

Agreed. Wait, no one who's truly innocent is going to go to jail. If we threw all of them in jail, there is no complete victims. I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's still people. They're all guilty to some degree. Yeah, this is just like, I don't even know what the fuck. I mean, this is crazy.

Yeah. Definitely one of the craziest true crime stories. I remember hearing all this when I was a kid and being like, okay. That's a lot. There's a lot of... This is a lot that can happen. All right. What do you mean if something bad happens to me? It won't just... People get what they deserve. But really my comfort in this is my comfort with anything. It's a sin-cursed earth. There's a lot of

evil in it and whatnot. But regardless of what you believe in, I like to think that there is some sort of eternal, almost cosmic justice with things. And if we live in a world of free will, then that means we live in a world of free consequence. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad or whatever. But I like to think there is some ultimate, you know, wane or judgment of actions like this, especially ones that are never asked for forgiveness or there's no repentance of it, stuff like that. So,

And I'm not the one to make the call on that. I'm not the judge in that. But the Earth can be messed up. But that doesn't mean we have to be super bummed out about it because I like to think there's something more to it. And if you think there's nothing more to it, then I guess you can be bummed out about it. That's fair. True. Yeah. 100%. Don't worry, Caleb. Not every episode will be... This is probably the saddest we'll ever get, I think. Yeah, I'll be alright. I'll be alright. It just makes me angry.

You know? Angry upset. I just get real quiet when I'm angry. It's impossible not to though. I really tried not to get angry but as soon as I think about the implications of the case and just how she acted it really frustrates me.

Anyway, thank you guys. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Thread. Thank you very much to my very handsome co-host for joining me today, helping me bring this case to light. Really appreciate it. Links down below. Again, go check out the Home for Little Wanderers if that's something that potentially interests you. I think we could all do a lot of good in the world if we apply ourselves in that way. Definitely check it out. Thank you very much. I'll see you in the

in the next episode of Red Thread whenever that may be. All right. Bye-bye. Thank you all for watching. Sorry we did this to you, but hey, by watching the video, you helped Home for Little Wonders. So that's something. Yeah. Bye-bye.