15: The O.J Simpson Trial | Red Thread
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So, everyone in the audience, Red Thread audience, I didn't want to write an intro story this week because...

Quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of coming up with ways of figuring out ways to trick the audience into transporting themselves into the point of view of terrible people. And this case is full of terrible people just beyond the person in the title. It's just full of really awful people.

But I still needed some kind of dramatic intro to introduce everyone to the episode of the show, since this has become a bit of a mainstay of the series, a staple, if you will. So I did what everyone else does in these sorts of situations in 2024, when deadlines are approaching very quickly and you can't find the energy to come up with a creative solution. I turned to ChatGPT. So let's find out how ChatGPT would introduce an episode of Red Thread.

Picture this: a courtroom where the drama is so intense it makes reality TV look like a snoozefest. We're talking about a case that had more drama than a telenovela marathon, and more twists than a pretzel factory on a roller coaster. Oh my god, wait, that's fire. Whoa. Oh god.

Welcome, dear listeners, to the wacky world of the trial that had us all scratching our heads and wondering if we'd accidentally tuned into a comedy sketch. In this episode, we're strapping ourselves in for a joyride through the O.J. Simpson trial, where the only thing more shocking than the evidence was the sheer absurdity of it all. From the iconic glove debacle that had us all channeling our inner fashion critics, to the slow-speed bronco chase that had us wondering if we'd stumbled into a bizarre episode of cop,

We're dissecting the moments that had us simultaneously gasping for breath and doubling over with laughter. So, what the fuck is chat? Why does chat GPT find this so funny? So, grab your illegal pads. It's such a funny case. Chat GPT loves it. It's one of his favorites.

So grab your legal pads and your sense of humor because this trial is about to get litigious in the most hilarious, unpredictable way possible. Man, ChatGPT was the really busted a gut laughing at the OJ trial. I don't think ChatGPT was even aware of the crimes. It was just found the whole thing funny.

Usually ChatGPT is, like, so, you know, risk-averse, like, scared of saying anything offensive, but all I did was... All I said was, can you create a compelling intro to a podcast series about OJ Simpson? And it went in the wackiest direction possible. I think it's because ChatGPT doesn't recognize, like...

The gravity of what's being discussed. It's like that time OniPlays asked it to make a Nostalgia Critic review of Schindler's List.

And ChatGPT's like, the film doesn't accurately show both sides of the argument. It doesn't understand what it's talking about. So I think that's how you get results like this. Yeah, that's so good. Anyway, thank you, ChatGPT, for helping us out. And just to reaffirm, that was all ChatGPT and not me. I don't find the case that funny. But regardless, this is Red Thread.

I'm Jackson. I'm joined by Charlie and Isaiah. And we're going to do our best, our very best, to go over all the important details about what is actually an enormous monumental case in American legal history. The document that I've compiled for this week's episode is enormous. It's like 30 pages. You can check the research out below and go through the sources as well. It's a massive case. And even though I think we all know

I think we all know the outcome of the case and how fair it was. I mean, let's keep an open mind while we go over the information, I guess, to the best of our abilities. But I think we all are going into this with our own biases, right? Well, I think there's a right answer. It's not a mysterious case per se. It's just very awful the way it played out.

Yeah, yeah. It's not really a bias. I have no idea who the killer might be, so I'm very interested to hear all the theories and all the sides to make a very... You know, there's a lot of nuance here, so there's no real way of knowing what happened, but maybe we can come up with some theories. There is, unironically, a theory that it was a serial killer that just happened to kill them and OJ was framed.

Yeah, that is a theory. I've also heard the theory that his son did it. Oh, yeah, that one too. Oh, and he took the fall for it? Yeah. Interesting. Well, he didn't really take the fall. He just... Publicly, sure. He's like screaming on the stand, it was my son, I swear! Just look deeper into it, please! So yeah, for anyone that doesn't know, from January to October 1995, the world was engrossed in the historic trial of the century, that's what it was called, for

So,

So that's the crux of the case. It wasn't so much was he guilty because I think most rational people could tell based on the evidence that the man was guilty as fuck.

There was no doubt about it. He killed those people. But would he be found guilty is an entirely different story that takes into account a whole slew of different factors that we'll dive into, as well as the actual murder murders themselves in this episode of Red Thread. Do you think, do you guys think there's a single person out there that hasn't heard of the OJ Simpson case?

I mean, internationally, 100%. Within the United States, probably not. I even remember in school, I don't remember what class, but one of the teachers had a whole day dedicated to going over the mishandling of the O.J. Simpson trial. So I just feel like it's become such a cultural mainstay, most people in the States probably know it.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely in, like, culture references over here in Australia. Like, I heard about it when I was, like, 10 years old. I may not have known about all of the, like, you know, the tighter details of the case up until this point. Like, all I knew was that, you know, OJ murdered people. There was very compelling evidence, DNA evidence to, you know, confirm that fact. And then he got away with it at the end of the day. That's what I knew. Yeah.

And of course, I've seen all those videos of like everyone in America tuned into the television when the verdict is read and just like the absolute shock and disbelief across half the country's faces. And then, you know, the other side, like the other half cheering and applauding and stuff. It was like such a divisive moment in American history, which I feel like has kind of over time disappeared and it's become more popular.

Like everyone is like, yeah, he absolutely did it. Well, even at the time people knew he did it. The reason why we won't look at ourselves. I'm sure you I'm sure you have it here. Yeah, I've got most things in this massive document. But there is a good chance that there's at least one person listening who's not familiar with the details of the case at all. So.

I think this will be a good overall summary for those people as well. Because like Charlie said, there's a lot of people, especially internationally, who just don't know the facts of the case. Maybe they know the name, but not why there's so much gravity around it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think even if you do know the fundamentals of the case, it is still an interesting deep dive to go through. Like, I did find a lot of information in here that I found very interesting that I wasn't aware of before the point. But I guess Charlie might be different if he had a whole...

you know school uh session dedicated to going over everything as well maybe that's different in america um so before we continue though like i said this case is absolutely massive i think it's the longest document so far in red thread history over 30 pages you can check the research out go through the sources and follow along with us by clicking the show notes in the description a lot of work and time and and going through sources went into this uh my girlfriend

killed it this week on the OJ Simpson document. So big thanks to her for going through that. We're on audio platforms as well. So if you're on YouTube at the moment, this is a reminder that we have even more convenient ways to listen to the show. You can even tune in when you're at court defending yourself. You can check that out below, linked below.

for audio platforms. And finally, a massive thank you to the sponsors of this episode, Zoc, Doc, and me, Undies. More from them later on, but you can find links to everything I just mentioned in the description below. All right, let's get into it. OJ Simpson, I guess the best way to start this is to kind of give a background on the man himself so we know exactly who we're talking about when we discuss the killings. Charlie, would you like to take OJ Simpson's early biography?

Sure.

Ha ha ha!

I tried looking into this a bit more about why, uh,

willie mays did this in the first place i thought maybe it was like a community outreach program but i literally could not find any information about like what drove willie mays to do this it sounds like he was just a good guy it's like he sounds like he sounds like santa claus or something just showing up in the morning when a when a kid needs him the most like some kind of imaginary figure so big props to willie mays sadly uh sadly it didn't stop oj from murdering

He's listening to police scanners waiting for like a young child to be the one being on the horn. He's like, all right, I'm going to go help them. I'll be the inspiration they need. But that is a very like touching story. I think he's a good guy.

Here's a quote from OJ on it.

Realizing that he had the potential to turn his life around, OJ enrolled in City College, where he joined the Junior College All-American team. He then went on to get a spot in the University of South California during 67 and 68. He would go on to win multiple awards, including the Heisman Trophy, Maxwell Award, and more.

The university retired his number, number 32. Retiring a jersey number is a tribute to the person who played and represented it, which shows how much of an enormous icon OJ had become to the area and the community. He was a rising sports star. OJ Simpson progressed to the National Football League in 1969, marking his presence as a force to be reckoned with in the sport. His

His old high school even named a football stadium after him and retired his number 28 jersey. He also gained the nickname The Juice because of his initials and now because of how fast he was. In the AFL-NFL draft in 1969, Simpson was in the first selection where the Buffalo Bills selected him as the number one overall pick.

At first, he didn't live up to his potential, but it changed in 1972 when Lou Saban arrived. Lou Saban completely changed the team's tactics and led Simpson into a Hall of Fame football career. In the second year of having Saban as coach, Simpson rushed for 2,003 yards and had 12 scores, earning himself the NFL's Most Valuable Player Award. Okay, he said 12 scores instead of 12 touchdowns. A very Australian moment. Yeah.

I don't know the lingo. I don't know if any of this is impressive, by the way. 1,800 meters. He got a whole 12 points. Yeah, that does seem like a lot to me. Is that a lot? No, he got 12 touchdowns.

Meaning he ran the ball into the tuck. That's very rare. Also, 2,003 yards in a year. Oh my word. That is insane. It's become a bit of a meme because of how impressive that number is. It's 2,000 yards in a season where they played less games than they do now. And you don't really see 2,000 yard rushers anymore.

I'm coming at this with like, cause this main sport over here is like AFL Australian football league, as well as NRL. And like these numbers seem small for NRL. Like you're constantly rushing, I guess, like running from one, one end of the field back. What that means is while holding the football and the entire other teams trying to tackle. Right. Okay. Yeah. He ran 2000 yards in one season, which is super rare.

Yeah. Okay. That makes more sense then. Yeah. If it's like, you know, full on rush while you're holding the ball and constantly being targeted. Yeah. Okay. So, okay. So he was a very impressive athlete. I think we can probably do that. Okay. Yeah. So in 1977, after a nine year stint with the bills, a knee injury ended his season early and it finished his career off in San Francisco where he grew up.

Some view this as the worst trade in NFL history because his performance was subpar at best. In 79, he retired, his final game being in Atlanta where he carried the ball twice for only 12 yards.

Simpson didn't let this disappointing into his sports career deter him. He had already dipped his toes into acting and appeared to be the next logical step for a charismatic sports star. When you turned on your TV, you would see him running through airports advertising Hertz, a rental car company, and most notably he played opposite Leslie Nielsen in the Naked Gun movies. My favorite movies of all time, by the way. Leslie Nielsen, such a good actor. Leslie Nielsen...

Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. And he's great in those movies as well. Like, OJ is actually, like, really good in those movies. The scene where he gets shot and he keeps, like, burning his hand and falling around. Stumbling through the boat. Like, all that slapstick humor is so good. I love that movie. He was even pitched to be the star of The Terminator, which later directors deemed was a bad idea, turning to Arnold Schwarzenegger instead. That would have been a crazy universe, though, where he's the Terminator over Arnie. Yeah.

There is a conversation in the writer's room like, "No one believes OJ Simpson could be a killing machine." He just doesn't have it. He just doesn't have that pizzazz. Then they see the murder- maybe he did like the murders and everything as like, retribution for that, like- I'll show them. They don't think I can be a killer? I'll show them. Yeah.

Isaiah, now that we've kind of got a fundamental understanding of who OJ was and what his history was before the murders...

Would you like to go over the murders themselves? Yes, absolutely. So, on June the 12th, 1994, a white Akita was walking aimlessly across the streets of California with bloody paws. I should clarify for everyone, Akita is a kind of dog and not a person's name. Because at first I read that as a person's name. It was like, that's a weird distinction, Jackson. It's like saying a white Jackson. A white Jackson was walking around Australia. Anyway.

A local discovered the dog, which led them to the bodies of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, who both lay lifeless in a narrow passageway between Nicole's house front steps and gate. Nicole had been stabbed 12 times, a fatal wound almost completely severing her neck, ending her life. Ron had been stabbed over 20 times.

That's a lot of times. Both of them stabbed a lot of times. And the severity of the wound on Nicole's neck implying a lot of passion behind the act.

So there's a museum in New Orleans called the Museum of Death that has a lot of like old execution devices and stuff like that in there. It also has a lot of autopsy photos and stuff like that from famous crimes. And there's a photo in there of Nicole Brown Simpson of the police like showing the wound. Her head is virtually off.

Like there's a little bit of skin on the back holding it, but from the front all the way to the spine severed out like it's brutal, brutal murder.

That seems kind of in poor taste to display that kind of stuff. You know, I thought about that while I was in there because there were a lot of those. There's like JFK's autopsy pic and a lot of other ones. But it's kind of like they have. You can't take pictures in there. You're supposed to be reverent. Like there's guards walking around to make sure people aren't like, you know, pointing or laughing or stuff like that. I appreciated it. But I did think like, that's kind of this is kind of strange.

Yeah. That's one of my least favorites, uh, outcomes of this case, I think is that the focus was predominantly on like the, uh, you know, OJ and the trial itself. And I feel like the, I feel like no one ever talks about the victims per se in this, in this case, like Nicole Brown Simpson and definitely Ron Goldman are kind of lost in the sea of discussion around it. And it's,

It's quite sad because two people obviously lost their lives and they obviously didn't deserve it. When I went to... I go to a lot of crime weird museums, if you can't tell. There's this display in Gatlinburg at the Alcatraz Crime Museum. And they had a display of all of Nicole Simpson's stuff. Like, they had her china cabinets and her personal stuff. And I was there with my wife.

And she was looking at the plates and she was like, oh, she liked collecting like old antique China. And she kind of stopped for a moment. I was like, I like collecting old antique China. Yeah. And she said, that's the first time I've thought of her as like a girl. As a real person. Yeah. Or yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like you lose the humanity of it when it becomes this enormous show, this enormous publicity thing. So I guess that's the point that I want to make this episode. Remember the victims as best you can because Nicole Brown Simpson had her whole life ahead of her and so did Ron Goldman. And it's a travesty that they were taken and there was no real justice or retribution for them.

So I guess that's a good kind of way to pivot into talking about Nicole Brown Simpson specifically. Born in 1959, Nicole Simpson had met OJ Simpson in 1977 when she was an 18-year-old waitress at a Beverly Hills nightclub. They began dating when Simpson was still married to his first wife, who was pregnant with their first daughter.

Or pregnant with their daughter. Simpson and Brown married in 1985, five years after OJ had retired from his career as a professional football star. Their marriage lasted seven years and they shared a daughter and a son together. OJ was emotionally and physically abusive towards Simpson. This is corroborated by multiple police reports and an arrest where he pleaded no contest to spousal abuse in 1989.

On October 31st, Brown called the police in panic, claiming that Simpson was going to kill her. She was then found by officers hiding in the bushes outside their home, quote, badly beaten and half naked. The police would then go on to claim that Simpson had, quote, punch slapped and kicked Nicole Brown.

Additionally, during an incident on New Year's Day 1989, a police report indicated Simpson had said, quote, I don't want that woman, referring to Brown, sleeping in my bed anymore. I got two women and I don't want that woman in my bed anymore. What a weird quote. I got two women and I don't want that woman in my bed anymore. What a lunatic. Yeah, wait, where, so where did that quote come from? How did they, who did he say that to?

It was from a police report. So I don't know who it was referred to. It said it was on New Year's Day, an incident. So maybe they were like at a bar and he said it about her or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But OJ was a prolific adulterer. So he had an affair during this time period as well. Well, I mean, he met her through an affair, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So he did definitely have two women in his bed. Yes. Yeah. Potentially. For sure. Nicole dropped the charges after being convinced by her parents that it was in her best interest to her.

I hate her family so fucking much. That is so sad. I hate her family so, so much. Imagine having a daughter and she's being abused, like domestically abused, and you're like, eh.

just stay with him because you know the benefits to us financially that's so sad yeah I don't know anything about the Brown family actually now that I think about it this is the first I've ever heard anything from like her family's side of things actually awful people it's also one of those things that like there was that belief and even to this day there's still like a bunch of those red pill guys that are like yeah no matter what you gotta stay with your husband even if he's fucking beating you it's just one of those things it'll get better yeah the psychopath yeah yeah

That kind of delusional aspect is common in men-go-their-own-way kind of communities, which is... I feel like that's different to this, where the father... Yeah, this one's like a financial incentive because he's benefiting from it. Yeah, which is completely different and even more fucked up, in my opinion. Especially when it's your father. It's your daughter, dude. He's meant to protect you. And he's basically serving you up on a platter to a domestic abuser. You know what's more important than my daughter? Money.

yeah yeah horrible horrible person yeah how do they come up more often in this document jackson um there's the there's some situations later on i'm not sure if i wrote them down but there are definitely some additional details that i could go over when we get to it okay yeah i'm super curious to see how they responded to like the trial and everything going on yeah

The pair divorced in 1992 after Nicole filed citing irreconcilable differences. A family friend claimed that Simpson had told Brown's friends that if he ever, quote, caught her with anyone, he would kill her. That doesn't mean anything, right? No, it's not foreshadowing. Yeah, that's that's not circumstantial. Doesn't. Yeah, it's just a saying.

However, the abuse was said to have continued after the divorce due to the fact that the pair shared children and were still in regular contact. Oh, I should also say they also kind of reconciled for a little period after the divorce. They tried to make it work, but then they split up again.

Yeah, yeah. Brown told her mother after the divorce that Simpson was following her, stating, quote, I go to the gas station, he's there. I go to the Payless shoe store, and he's there. I'm driving, and he's behind me. On October the 25th, 1993, Brown called the police to report Simpson being violent again, after he had allegedly found a photo of a man Brown had dated while they were broken up.

Audio revealed during the trial showed Brown calling 911, claiming that Simpson was, quote, going to beat the shit out of me.

Simpson could be heard angrily shouting, quote, you did not give a shit about the kids when you were sucking his dick in the living room. They were here. Didn't care about the kids then. Gosh, they got like 911 calls of him like, I will kill you for the record to the police. Nicole, you are dead and I did it. Well, the fact that he's still not in jail after all the instances of domestic abuse and beating his wife and everything is still just crazy that he just kept getting away with it for so long.

But the wife has to press charges, right? No, I don't think all the time, right? Isn't there that... If there is witnesses... Yeah. Yeah.

But it seems so far like this is all stuff she's saying. There's not direct witnesses to it. And since she won't be the witness to come forward and press charges, it's an awkward situation. Isn't there a thing, though, where if this happens a certain number of times regardless, they take you in? Like they have an obligation to? Maybe now, but we're talking about the 90s as well. It could be different. Maybe.

That and also everything that the police would know would be secondhand because it's all stuff she's told other people at this point. I mean, but like they could see that she was beaten, right? Like visibly. It's like the officer said she was hiding in the bushes outside their home, badly beaten and half naked. It's not really second. Well, I mean, well, also, honestly,

on top of that he's a rich celebrity yeah it's OG Simpson I mean that's that's probably that's probably the primary reason yeah and her dad was also the owner of the lucrative Hertz car rental facility yeah it's Carlton at Monarch Bay you don't fuck with that man laughing

if this was just some like poor guy living in the region then probably you know they'd at least arrest him even if they couldn't get charges to stick but they don't you know oh he's famous we don't want to make a show of it blah blah blah the same thing that happens all the time with all these guys um

The most unfortunate outcome of the case, beyond the subjective disappointment of justice not being served, is that Nicole Brown was a victim of domestic violence and is now endlessly tied to her abuser in the sense that her story and her life had disappeared into the vacuum of the trial and the murder itself. That's true. It's incredibly sad that her life has been reduced to a side note in a courtroom farce when it meant so much more than that. She was a victim in so many ways, and she deserved more.

That's a really profound statement at the end there, Jackson. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a very sad, sad outcome to this. And I wish I could have written more about Nicole Brown, who she was as a person and stuff like that. But I highly encourage people out there to look into, look into it, look into who Nicole was as a person and Ron, the other victim in this situation.

look into them because I think you need to remember it. So speaking of that other victim, Ron Goldman, who was born in 1968, was a local waiter and an aspiring actor. He was a working volunteer with children suffering from cerebral palsy. He had befriended Nicole Brown just six weeks prior to the murder when he borrowed her Ferrari.

The two grew increasingly friendly, meeting for coffee and dinner in the weeks before their murders. According to police and friends, the relationship between the two was entirely platonic. Much like Nicole, Ron Goldman is often brushed over as a side note in his own murder case. He was a 25-year-old with his whole life ahead of him and a whole bunch of dreams that would go on unrealized due to the violent nature of a domestic abuser.

Goldman had dreams of opening a bar or restaurant in the Brentwood area of Los Angeles. He had shared with his friends his vision for a venue to be known not by name, but by an icon. An Ankh, which is an Egyptian religious symbol of life that matched the tattoo on his shoulder. Is that the one that's like a circle with like a cross? That whole thing? Yeah, I think so. It's like the ring with the...

Yeah, it's like a cross with a ring on the top. It's pretty prevalent in Yu-Gi-Oh! if you ever watch Yu-Gi-Oh! Yeah, it is. I mean, it is. I missed you, Charlie. Actually, Yu-Gi-Oh! has an enormous amount of Egyptian iconography in it. It does. One of the god cards is Ra, just straight up an Egyptian god. They were called the Egyptian god cards, right? Or some shit like that. The Egyptian god cards. Obelisk, Ra, and Slifer.

No, it's Slifer. Is it Slifer? I can't remember. Yeah, that was the first good card I ever got. Anyway, that's unimportant in the case. Yeah, that did not matter. No, I think that's very pertinent to the case. Yeah. Okay, so we've gone over the victims, biographies of the victims, Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Let's get back to the actual murder scene.

the murder itself, if you would like to continue. Absolutely. So, when the first police officer arrived at the scene, they found the house normal. Candles lit, tub full of water, the TV on, and more hauntingly, Nicole's children peacefully asleep in their rooms. The injuries on Nicole and Ron were consistent with an attack by a large, strong man, and autopsies reveal that Nicole was attacked first from behind. Coward.

Yeah, through reconstruction, they believe that Ron arrived during the attack on Nicole, which then turned the attacker's attention onto him. It is believed that the attack lasted no longer than five minutes.

Yeah, so it seems like to me that Ron Goldman was definitely not an intended victim of the crime. It was very much a case of wrong place, wrong time for Ron. It seems like Nicole Brown Simpson was absolutely the primary target, per se. The intentional target. When police went to find Simpson...

to notify him of Nicole's death. They discovered that he had boarded a late night flight to Chicago. The police took note of his car, which had blood smears across it, and when searching his property, they found the infamous bloody gloves.

What ensued was what might be one of the most famous slow car chases in history. There's a warrant made for his arrest, and five days after the murder, Simpson drove down the LA freeway in a white Ford Bronco with police pursuing.

Happening on June the 17th, 1994, over 95 million people watched news broadcast as it cut from the NBA final to his car chase. Simpson was in the backseat while his friend and the owner of the car, Al Cowlings, a former NFL player, drove. Cowlings would claim that he was forced into the car with a gun and Simpson wanted him to drive to Nicole's grave.

Throughout the two hour long chase, Simpson repeatedly threatened to end his life holding a gun to his head while on the phone to police who were trying to convince him not to. The pursuit ended at Simpson's house where he was completely surrounded by police. It is crazy that the footage of the chase was never actually shown during the trial.

When arrested, police found a gun, his passport, a fake beard, and thousands of dollars of cash and checks on Simpson. Fucking fake beard gets me every time. He actually went Looney Tunes mode on it with like the big nose and mustache. No, this is not OJ Simpson. He went that way.

Yeah. So their bodies were found dead on June 12th, five days later is when this car chase happens. Yep. Shortly after Nicole's funeral, I believe. So it was a slow, slow car chase throughout this freeway of LA, Los Angeles. And his friend was driving the car. Yeah, it was kind of a crazy situation.

In terms of how he was eventually caught. Doesn't that signify a bunch of like guilt though? If he was innocent, wouldn't he have just turned himself in initially? Again, this was never about innocence or guilt at any point. Let's just review the case so far. Simpson had told her dozens of times to several witnesses. If you're ever with another man, I'll kill you.

they get divorced she is found at her house stabbed to death by a very strong man with a guy there who potentially he viewed the killer viewed as a suitor maybe not they go to tell oj and they find blood all over his car with bloody gloves

That would later go on to match the blood of Simpson at his house. When they try to find him, he's attempting to flee the country, gets into a car chase with police and threatens to kill himself over the phone. So who do we think is most likely? He's definitely a suspect in my mind, but we can't know for sure yet.

I mean, just taking into account just the history of domestic abuse. Like, sadly, this is how most domestic abuse cases end up, you know, progressing towards if they're not stopped, you know? It's kind of like the natural progression of domestic abuse and why it's such an enormous issue. So, this is just the logical outcome of that. And, yeah, it seems like... Just even disregarding all of the...

hard evidence in terms of you know dna matches and stuff like that it seems like it seems impossible to consider every anyone else at this point even just with this that evidence it's crazy well this thing put it this way this is the only high profile murder i can think of where once someone was quote unquote cleared they never tried to investigate further hmm

think about that way every other time someone's like oh there's evidence or they're found not guilty they're like all right then who did it and they keep searching this is the only one after he was found not guilty they're like well all right

No more investigating. Wait, that's so true. I never thought of that. You found, like, not guilty and they're just like, oh, well, it must have been nothing. Well, the case is over. I guess no more searching for us. They just de-aggro the NPCs. Must have been the wind. Oh.

Never has there been another murder case where once someone's not convicted, everyone quits looking for suspects. Yeah, I didn't even consider that. You're right. It's like, yeah, everyone knew. Anyway.

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Okay, so we just got done talking about the murders themselves, like the events surrounding the murders, how that transpired to the best of our ability to

to you know pass that information and it's really anyone's call who's responsible it could be anyone we should hey that that that white akita we should ask him some questions what's his alibi yeah shows up with bloody paw prints he did have blood over him so yeah yeah

Okay, let's talk about the trial itself now, the trial of the century, as it's called. So Simpson was arrested the day after Nicole's funeral and was charged with the double murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, shockingly. On his second arraignment on July 22nd, 1994, he pleaded not guilty, saying, quote, absolutely, 100%, not guilty. You know what? I believe him. It's pretty straightforward. Yeah.

So, again, let's quickly go over what evidence they had to supply the trial. So, number one, blood drops that contain Simpson's genetic markers were found at the rear gate of the property. When he was interviewed by the police, he had a deep cut on his finger. And I can show that on screen right now. You can see his bloody finger as well as, you know, just the cut itself.

Point two, Nicole Brown Simpson's blood was found on socks that were discovered in Simpson's bedroom. Pretty odd place for Nicole Brown Simpson's blood to be found, if you ask me. Evidence number three, an extra large pair of Aris leather gloves were found, one at the crime scene and one at Simpson's guest house. The blood, again, according to police, had Simpson's genetic markers as well as the victim's blood on them. So kind of like a blood cocktail of both the victim and Simpson himself.

Point number four, a knit cap found at the murder scene had cashmere fibers that matched ones found on the glove found at the house, implying that they were both in the same place at the same time. The next one, fibers from Simpsons Ford Bronco matched ones found on the glove found at the house and the knit cap. You know, just further building this case that these things were all at the same place at the same time. Whoever framed OJ did a really good job of going out of their way. They went out of their way. Incredible.

All right, the next one. Bloody shoe prints were at both the crime scene and inside the Bronco. These were size 12 Bruno Magli. And in the civil trial to come, it was found that Simpson wore the same make and size shoe. For some reason, this evidence was also not used in court. I don't know why. I didn't find any reference to it being used in a court setting. He had really good lawyers. Yeah. Maybe it was inadmissible or maybe... Yeah, that's what happened.

Okay, so next. Blue and black cotton fibers off of Ron Goldman's shirt were found on socks in Simpson's bedroom. But that doesn't mean anything. Simpson and Ron Goldman were good friends. Ron Goldman, this man he never met. Yeah, they were good friends. His shirt fibers were found on bloody clothes in Simpson's house. That doesn't mean anything.

All right. Most importantly, the most crucial element of evidence, usually, OJ Simpson took a polygraph test. And although these can be unreliable, his results were a, quote, total failure and minus 24 points, which indicated a dishonest reading for whatever that's worth with polygraph tests. Obviously, those aren't like super admissible, but, you know, when in combination with everything else, may as well throw it in there. And then finally, a witness...

was produced who allegedly saw Simpson in his Bronco on the day of the murder and saw him drive away from Nicole's house, directly placing him at the crime scene at the time of the crime. This evidence was not used in court, however, as she received $5,000 to tell her story to hard copy, which is a publication. She, uh, she has later said that she regrets doing this.

Which this is what I mean, again, like this story is full of so many awful people that nearly everyone in this fucking case sold their story and like published their own books and stuff. Like it was just everyone looking out for themselves and no matter what happened, like to the actual information or justice, it was never about that. It was like, how can we profit from this?

everyone to be fair though it still would not have changed the outcome no trial no no yeah yeah but she didn't know that no she didn't of course not but looking back on it it would not have changed how this played out yeah

All right. So now, now I'll go over the judge. So the presiding judge over the case was Lance Ito or Ito. Judge Ito made the decision to allow the trial to be televised, which some have claimed is one of the worst moves in American judicial history. How do you guys feel about that? Like court cases being, you know, televised. Oh, I'll go first here. I think in the modern landscape, it's very beneficial to have these trials be broadcast. I think it's very helpful and,

in having a lot of these broadcasts, but back then, I could see why it would be a pretty bad decision. Because TV and all of that being televised had a much different prestige than it does now. So it could absolutely change the way things get handled by people on the case knowing that it's being seen. I have a more balanced take. I think that it should be filmed and released after the fact. I think you get the best of both worlds then. People can...

Watch it to confirm that justice actually happened. You know, it's in the public's best interest to do so. But then it's also kept private up until, you know, the conclusion is finalized so that no kind of political opinion sways what happens, which is what I think happened here.

That's really smart. Yeah, I think that's a really good way of meeting in the middle. The main thing is just making sure we have the ability to see what happened during a trial, I think is extremely important. I 100% agree with that. Let me ask this because I haven't really thought about this before, but

But I'm interested in your opinion, Charlie. What makes you think, I'm not asking this as like a debate or anything, like in earnest, what is your opinion between televised trials then versus televised trials now? What's the difference?

I think the big thing back then is everyone was tuned in to like TV and stuff and if you were on TV everyone made a huge deal out of it right but nowadays it's like no one really cares that much because everything is everywhere but back then that is your chance to make statements if you're on TV I see you're the spotlight yeah it's your rare opportunity yeah yeah that is that is your time to shine all eyes on you

Okay, let me ask this. Would you think maybe... I see how that would relate to normal trials, like if televised, you know, kind of standard trials. But take a case like the Rittenhouse case where everyone was watching that. Do you think that maybe that...

old idea comes back when it's a super public case, when like everyone's watching it? I don't know. That's a good question. I definitely, like, so another one would be like Amber Heard death trial. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's another one you could pull from as well. I don't know if those really have like a huge effect though on how those play out nowadays, to be honest. It just feels like it, like it's just very different now than it would be then.

But I don't know, maybe I'm a little delusioned on it, perhaps. No, no, it's an interesting point. I get what you're saying, that back then that was kind of your moment, right? Having that many eyes on you is a rare occasion. I get that. I think it's like the effect is less because, like you said, those events back then were more prestigious in terms of like there were 95 million people tuning into this kind of. Yeah, it was an enormous event.

I still think that happens now though, like again with the Amber Heard stuff. And I do think it impacts the actual flow of justice in that case because people are, people still showboat. People definitely like witnesses still like know they're on camera and people are watching at home. Like the Amber Heard stuff was like heavily live streamed across like all those, you know, Twitch political channels as well as like react channels like yourself. Like it was an, it was an enormous event. And while, you know, I don't think it impacted,

the justice element of it too much i think that there is some level of people playing things up when they know that you know it's being streamed that many people or it's that much of a big event i think your salute or your perspective on it's probably the best one jackson where all of it should be filmed and released after the facts that way nothing has any kind of like chance to affect the justice of things yeah i think that probably makes the most sense

Kind of like how interrogations are handled, right? Yeah. They're filmed for... Release them so that people can still investigate them if they need, if they want to investigate them. Keep them accountable. Keep the courts accountable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Okay. So in this case, Judge Ito seemed to enjoy the cameras and many thought he used the Simpson case to further his own career agenda and celebrity status. That's Los Angeles for you, baby. Everyone was, everyone was wanting that.

And he was criticized for appearing in a TV series for an interview shortly after. He was married to Margaret York, who was the captain of the LAPD and the highest ranking female officer at the time. And believe it or not, this little fact will come back in a big way later in the case, which is why I needed to include it there, which is crazy. So yeah, he, I mean, everyone, literally everyone in this case was kind of using this to advance their own celebrity status.

Which I don't know if it was the situation itself kind of built that up in these people or if it's just that they were all in Los Angeles and everyone wanted to be a celebrity in general in Los Angeles, which is kind of the impression that I get.

All right. So next up, let's talk about the dream team. This is the literally is the dream team. These guys were insane. It's like the Avengers of legal teams. So this was the defense team. I'm going to go over each of the defense members, the defense council to give a kind of short biography of each of them so that you kind of get an understanding of the skill of the members. Because, I mean, it is incredible what they were able to accomplish with this.

So first up, we've got Johnny Cochran, who just before the jury was first seated, Johnny Cochran became the leader of Simpson's defense. He is credited for bringing the arguments about race into the trial. This led to overall reviews of practices within the LAPD. Cochran was said to demonstrate an enormous level of skill at connecting with the jurors and demonstrating the incompetence of the police. Johnny was just like, he's a kind of like a...

He's a Saul Goodman type. He's super charismatic individual. Just very charming. The jury loved him. The court loved him. Everyone loved him. He was very good at what he did. Cochran is most famous for the quote that is still remembered as the defining moment of the trial today. I'll let Charlie say it.

If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit. Yep, that was him. I'm sure everyone knows that quote. What a, like, just incredible quote. Have you seen the video of him saying it? Yeah. He's like a pastor. If the glove doesn't fit, like, he's so into it. He's so good. I mean, he was so, so good. It cannot be understated how good Johnny Cochran was.

There was someone in the jury who heard that line and was like, "I don't care what's said after this, I have to quit them." That's how it works. For some reason, human brains, if there's a compelling rhyme that hits it, it's way more effective.

So that quote refers to the bloody gloves fan at the crime scene. And Johnny Cochran after this case would also go on to represent Sean Combs, Michael Jackson, Tupac, Jim Brown, Snoop Dogg in his own murder case, among others. So he became kind of a celebrity lawyer at that point, defense lawyer.

Next up, we have Robert Kardashian. Yes, the Kardashians are involved in this one as well. This is how they got started too, right? Yep, this was their big rise. So Robert Kardashian is the father of the famous Kardashians, Kourtney, Khloe, and Kim, and the wife of Kris Jenner. Him and his wife, Kris, were good friends with Simpson and Nicole, which is absolutely fucking crazy. He's the wife of Kris Jenner.

Wait, he and his wife, Chris. Yeah, there you go.

They were good friends with Simpson and Nicole. How's that not like an enormous conflict? Anyway, although he did not usually take on cases of this nature, he was invited to join the defense team by Robert Shapiro, another member of the defense team. Some believe that he was asked to join the team as a way of avoiding being a character witness in the trial. So he was just brought onto the team so he wouldn't be able to testify against Simpson, which is an incredible, incredible tactic. I don't know how that's legal, but apparently...

Many know Robert Kardashian from when he read Simpson's suicide note live on TV on June 17th, 1994. In this letter, Simpson talks about how much he loved Nicole and that he had nothing to do with her murder. They had mutually decided to go separate ways, he claimed, and although hard, he says he knew it was for the best. He thanks his friends, family, and even says sorry to the Goldman family, Ron Goldman's family.

He wants people to think of the real OJ and not this lost person. After the case, Kardashian went on to do interviews where he claimed he doubted Simpson's innocence. And if he had the option to do it all again, he probably wouldn't. Man, he doubted his innocence, huh? I get like, this is a

you know, a massive part of the legal system. The defense team has to operate in the best interest of their, you know, the defendant because that is the principle of the legal system itself. Everyone is entitled to a defense. But to do that with someone that is so clearly guilty? Like, I...

it must be so hard it makes me mad because the way it works yes everyone should have their side argued in a case like this absolutely but it also comes out in a scenario where people who are obviously guilty will get off through like a trick or a loophole of the legal system and everyone's like oh well justice was served exactly yeah like it's it's frustrating

Yeah, it's annoying. I think Robert Kardashian is awful for doing that, but I get that it's a tricky situation when you're an actual defense lawyer.

So next up, Robert Shapiro. I don't think there's any relation to Ben Shapiro. I did check into that. They just have the same last name, no relation. Robert Shapiro was the original lead in the Dream Team, but went on to give his position to Johnny Cochran, which I think is because Johnny Cochran is an African-American man, and I think they all knew that that would have an enormous sway in how this would go.

He is often credited for the police inviting Simpson to turn himself in instead of being chased and arrested. Shapiro has later stated in his book, The Search for Justice, that he was never certain that Simpson wasn't guilty. So again, it is also-

All his lawyers knew he was guilty. As Charlie said, so did everyone. Everyone knew that he was guilty. There's no one that knew the case that thought he was innocent. Not the jury, not either of the teams. Like, everybody knew.

My girlfriend in the research period of creating this document was showing me pictures of when the verdict was read. And you just look at his defense team and they all look like they hate themselves so deeply at that moment. Like Robert Shapiro is just shocked.

When it gets read out, Simpson, he doesn't cheer or anything. He's like surprised. He's like, oh, okay. He's like, what? Yeah, I mean, from the very beginning, he didn't plan this out or anything. He knew he was dead to rights. He went on a police chase, bought a fucking late night plane ticket. He was ready to kill himself, I guess. He knew there was no way out, and yet they were able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

By abusing a broken legal system. It wasn't the legal system itself that was broken. I think it was social perception.

That's fair. It mostly comes down to the division in America itself at the time. We'll get into that down the line. All right. So the final two people on the defense team, F. Lee Bailey. F. Lee Bailey was brought onto the team by his friend, Robert Shapiro. He's most famous for his cross-examination of LAPD detective Mark Furman during his testimony. He said in a press conference leading up to this that, quote, any lawyer in his right mind who would not be looking forward to cross-examining Mark Furman is an idiot.

So F. Lee Bailey was very confident and he enjoyed, I think out of all of the defense attorneys, he probably enjoyed this case the most. I think he thought of it as a game almost. So he's an interesting character. Bailey was already a well-known lawyer before joining Simpson's team, being a part of some of the most high profile cases of the 20th century, like the Patricia Heard case at Aris who became a bank robber. He was disbarred in Massachusetts and Florida for misconduct, which

which amounted to his mishandling of client funds during his representation of a drug dealer in 1994, in 2001 and 2003, with Robert Shapiro being responsible for his disbarment. So two of the defense attorneys here would later on go to be at odds down the line. The OJ lore. Yep.

And finally, we come to the final member of the defense team. One of the most well-known lawyers of all time, probably, right? He's gotta be. Him and Cochran, yeah, for sure. So, the final member is Alan Dershowitz, the Harvard... I think he's the head of Harvard in terms of law, right? I think so. Something like that. So, Alan Dershowitz is another very prominent lawyer who has also represented the likes of

Jeffrey Epstein because he comes up in every single Red Thread episode. Our old favorite. It is actually crazy how often Jeffrey Epstein comes up. Yeah, that's one of the Red Thread's boys right there. Jackson put you in the driver's seat of Epstein at one point. Yeah, you should all be able to relate. Well, not relate. You should all be able to relate to Epstein, yeah.

Yeah, I know what you're trying to say. He's also represented the likes of Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump, Harvey Weinstein, and more. So just great company for Alan Dershowitz. He takes on all the best cases, and OJ was there with them. The elite, the best of the best.

So in later years, Dershowitz has said that if he was contacted by the victim's families first, he probably would have represented them. But he also describes Simpson as someone, quote, the police tried to frame, which I don't agree with. And I think that assessment is... Well, of course, he was paid to do it. He was paid to say that. Absolutely. Paid to say that, yeah. But yeah, Alan Dershowitz is a very colorful figure now, right? In terms of how...

controversial he is I don't actually know what's so controversial about him I just know that he is a controversial figure I think there's some allegations documents yeah Epstein documents have Alan Dershowitz in there Trump whenever all this stuff was happening with his trials and stuff like that Dershowitz was the one who was representing he had all the paperwork that was supposedly being hidden from the public stuff like that anytime there's some high profile political case he's involved somehow right gotcha

Alright, and then to finish up this little section of biographies, it's important to also go over the prosecution team, since we're getting kind of biographies of everyone in the courtroom, everyone that would become a main figure. So, the head of the prosecution was a woman named Marsha Clark. Clark with no E on the end, no relation to me. Leading the prosecution team was Marsha Clark, a lawyer who had been handling trials in downtown LA for 10 years by the time she was given the Simpsons case.

Clark came under heavy criticism from the media. She was going through a divorce during the trial and unfortunately had to cancel a court date due to being unable to find childcare. This and a focus on her appearance for some stupid fucking reason allowed the media to run wild against her in a dramatized manner that amounted to a semi-smear campaign. So because she was like a female lawyer at the time, of course, the media itself ran wild with like,

Gossip stuff towards Marsha Clark, which I definitely think unfortunately played a role in kind of trivializing the prosecution team itself. Kind of like delegitimized her and the team. So that's unfortunate. And then we have Christopher Dart and the other member, the other prominent member of the prosecution team.

Christopher Darden was brought onto the prosecution team by Marsha Clark. He did not have much criminal trial experience, mostly working in the Special Investigation Division of the LA Prosecutor Office. Darden has also come under fire for his actions in the case. The case took a very personal toll on Darden as an African-American man.

He was seen as a quote traitor to his own race. More recently, he has said that he found the experience extremely painful and shameful in 1995 at an award ceremony. There was a black and Jesus Christ, black and forth. Jesus Jackson. Look, I know you're Australian and maybe things are different over there, but you can't talk like that. Okay. Tongue tied down. Yeah.

What's that called? Not social faux pas. What's it when you read a word the wrong way? Getting it wrong? No, no, no. There's a term. A Freudian slip? Is that what that was for you? Yeah, a Freudian slip. No, a Freudian slip's when you say what you're really thinking. Don't say that's what you just did. Hopefully that's not it. Not it, not it.

Okay. In 1995 at an award ceremony, there was a back and forth between Cochran and Darden. Cochran made remarks about welcoming Darden back into the black community. In an acceptance speech, Darden commented that he didn't need to be let back in. He never left. Darden has also commented that on the day of the verdict, he went to his office, retrieved his belongings and never went back. However, it has been reported that he was actually fired from the DA's office. So that wasn't as cool as it was made out to be.

So yeah, a very like difficult situation for Christopher Darden to be in. And I, I hate that it was a difficult situation because this should have never been about race in the first place. Like it should be about people equally arguing, uh,

for the defense and equally arguing for the prosecution regardless of their race that's that's what i mean about tricks being pulled the lawyers his defense worked in like social issues of the time in order to make it not a murder trial and instead to make it like a uh a civil rights trial over a guy who brutally murdered his ex-wife and uh

a guy who just so happened to be there. And like, I really want to emphasize not just from the pictures I saw at that museum, but also just like the details of it in general, it is hard to explain how much of a monster OJ Simpson was, or sorry, allegedly whoever did it, we'll never know. Um, well, he's dead now. You can say it. He can't come get you anymore. That that's true, but I don't know what his family is.

Like defense would say about that. Whoever did it was so much of a monster, like stabbing someone over 20 times, cutting someone's head off with a knife. Like the amount of blood that was tracked from the house outside on the steps, even it's like, it's like a bear ripped these people apart, horrific murder. And then to make that into like, well, a civil rights issue or whatever, like it, gosh, it's, it's frustrating. Yeah.

Yeah, there were no mitigating factors there either. It's not like this was a crime of like, sorry, a self-defense case or, you know, he wasn't like, it wasn't racially motivated, the case itself, like the murder itself. There was no like racial element to it. It's just what happened afterwards in terms of the trial that kind of incorporated that element to the defense team's benefit.

Okay, so now we come to the longest part of this document, which is the actual trial itself. I'll take it if you want. I don't mind reading the documents. Yeah, I think maybe you guys should split it as well because it is quite a long one. I'll start it and then you can come in, Isaiah. Sounds hot. Tag team it.

The prosecution began with their opening statements, Darden emphasizing the importance of remembering the victim's families. He went on to describe how Simpson was extremely possessive and controlling over Nicole and had physically and emotionally abused her over the past 17 years. This ended up with him killing Nicole when he couldn't have her.

Then Clark took over, where she would describe more of the evidence that had been discovered. She talked about the incriminating blood found in pools by the gate, the Bronco, and on the gloves, and also the trail leading from the house. She was unable to yet mention that the blood was Simpson's due to an objection made by the defense that requested this information be held until a forensic expert was called. This is an excerpt from Darden's opening statement. He killed her, Nicole Brown, out of jealousy. He killed her because he couldn't have her.

Cochran then proceeded with the defense's opening statement. He took an unexpected, more mellow approach to his statement, reminding the jury that you have to be certain beyond all reasonable doubt to find someone guilty in a court of law. He remarked that the case is a rush of judgment and an obsession to win at any cost. He laid down a lot of groundwork for the defensive strategy of...

showing the imbalanced racial system of law in this country. He quoted Martin Luther King saying, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Cochran also talked about witnesses who allegedly been ignored by the police. One being Mary Ann Gurchas, who was waved off by the police and told they had it all wrapped up so her testimony was not necessary.

Bringing up witnesses should have been objected by the prosecution as opening statements aren't arguing for evidence, but for some inexplicable reason, it wasn't. Prosecution brought in their first witness at the end of January 1995, Sharon Gilbert. Gilbert, a 911 operator, was brought in to verify evidence of a call that came in to 911 the night Nicole was attacked. She verified she could hear a woman screaming and being struck.

Many people close to Nicole and Simpson, including Nicole's sister Denise and even Simpson's own friend Ron Shipp, testified that Simpson was abusive and their relationship was incredibly tumultuous. Denise talked about how Simpson had called her sister a fat pig when she was pregnant and once grabbed her crotch in public one night and exclaimed, "...this belongs to me."

In cross-examination, Denise was questioned heavily about having a drinking problem, which she agreed she did have, which impacted her credibility. Which is so stupid. Like, just because she's an alcoholic. It has nothing to do with anything at all. It doesn't even ruin her credibility. It's not like she's fucking hallucinating while drunk. Yeah, come on.

Such a joke. This led to defense using her alcoholism to question the validity of her statements. Ron Shipp, who was a retired LAPD officer, claimed that Simpson had told him that he didn't want to take a lie detector test because he had dreams of killing Nicole. He also alleges that Simpson changed his story multiple times about the cut on his hand and asked him questions to the effect of how long does it take for DNA to come back. Simpson, in Shipp's mind, was guilty and held no doubts about the case.

At this point in the trial, it seemed that prosecution had gotten off to a better start than the defense. They had outlined the abusive behavior of Simpson, and the defense had seemed to have struggled with their cross-examinations of the witnesses beyond throwing Denise's credibility into question.

Simpson was also asked to show the jury the finger which prosecution claimed was injured from him murdering Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. But Shapiro brought up the suggestion that his finger was simply permanently swollen from arthritis.

Simpson claimed that he had cut his hand on glass after the murders when he learned about them. Wait, he claimed that he cut his hand on glass after he learned about the murder. So what? He got like really upset. Well, damn you. Damn you. Whoever killed Nicole Brown.

Whoever did this will be brought to justice, I swear it. Ouch, my finger. The cut on his finger is pointed as one of the main reasons the police suspected Simpson, with Detective Philip Venator testifying that the finger was cut and swollen when he saw Simpson the day after the murders. That can't be one of the main reasons that they suspected him. Yeah, I was going to say...

The blood on the car, the bloody gloves. Like, there's plenty of other things besides just- The years of threatening to kill her. Yeah. So you'll see eventually down the line, but the reason the defense team won wasn't entirely just because of the racial element that they- You know, the arguments that they produced during the defense. They cut enough of a hole that they were able to fill that with doubt.

Yeah, a lot of it comes down, or at least a fair percentage of it comes down to the ineptitude of the prosecution and the, what do you call it, the LAPD itself. There was a lot of ineptitude here. When on the stand, Detective Venator stepped down to examine Simpson's finger, where he said, It didn't look swollen to me.

The defense also asked Detective Venator what a Colombian necktie was. He didn't know the answer and was unable to provide a response. This made the jury gasp and was seemingly asked by the defense in order to make Venator look like a trivia game. Yeah, like what the fuck is that? So a Colombian necktie is when you cut someone, like it's a mob thing where you cut the neck and pull the tongue out through the hole in the neck.

It's like a necktie. What does that have to do with any of this? I don't know. Oh, so you're a police officer? Can you tell us about this obscure murder method in South America? No? Well, I guess you don't know what O.J. Simpson really did that night, do you? Like, what? Yeah, so you claim that you're a detective.

What's an Alaskan pipeline then, huh? What's that mean? The jury gasping is so funny because they're like, how could he not know of the Colombian necktie? Surely this man is not fit for office. As if any of them knew what a Colombian necktie was either. This was a jury in the 90s. Jesus Christ.

Shockingly, this was never struck down as an objection by the prosecution for being irrelevant. And even more astonishingly, it seemingly worked as the jury seemed to discount Venator as a reliable witness from that point on. That's so dumb. That's so dumb. Detective Venator, do you know what a Cleveland steamer is? What are you asking here? How could the prosecution not be like, objection, relevance, they're done. That your lead witness is back on. Like, what?

I mean, they didn't object enough in general. It sounds like they didn't object at all, yeah. We see that a lot, though. We see that a lot in cases where there must be some reason that they don't object, usually. Maybe they get reprimanded if they do.

We I was going to say the opposite, like in a lot of televised trials, it's nothing but like constantly spamming objection. They're going overruled objection. Stop overruled. Like they do it all the time now. Maybe it wasn't common back then. I don't know. I don't know. Stupid.

Venator also offered answers to try and dispel any theories around someone planting the blood at Simpson's house. He talked about how he handled the vial of blood after it was drawn and how he took it personally to a criminalist at Simpson's home where there was currently a search warrant being served. Simpson's former house guest Brian Cato Kaelin was called to the stand to testify. He acknowledged that he was Simpson's friend but said he would be 100% honest.

He talked about how Simpson had said he was giving up on attempts to reconcile with Nicole Brown Simpson and that she did not allow him to spend time with his daughter, but he did not seem angry about this. He had complained about how tight her dress was on a previous night of a recital, and Kalen said he heard three thumps sometime between 10.40 p.m. and 10.45 p.m., but he was scared to go outside and check as he only had a small flashlight. He even demonstrated the thumps on the desk so everyone knew what it sounded like.

Eventually leaving the house shortly after, he got distracted by a limousine waiting at the front of the house that was there to take Simpson to the airport. He helped Simpson get his luggage into the car, but said there was one item, a black knapsack, that Simpson wanted to put in the trunk solely by himself. Kalen was also asked if he had seen the cuts on Simpson's hand in the evening prior to the murder, but he said he didn't.

Alan Park was a chauffeur who had been hired to take Simpson to the airport for his flight to Chicago at 10:45 p.m. When he arrived, he did not see any car out front of the house and didn't see the Bronco that night. Park said that when he arrived, he spent 15 minutes trying to contact someone inside across the intercom. He then got in contact with his boss who told him that Simpson usually ran late and if no one was there by 11:15, he could go home.

He called his boss at 10.52 and during this conversation, a figure caught his eye. A person he now identified as Kalen. He saw him walk from behind the house onto a pathway with a small flashlight and stopped right before the driveway. He looked at Park and then away when another figure caught Park's attention.

Someone came into the entrance from where the driveway started, described as six foot 200 pounds, wearing all black clothing and an African-American. He could not describe if it was a female or male, and he could not say if it was Simpson, but the person was around the same size. Hold on, hold on, hold on. This is at Simpson's house, correct? Yeah, yeah.

So he's like, oh, I pulled up at Simpson's house to pick up Simpson. And then a guy walked in who looked exactly like Simpson, but I can't be sure if it was Simpson. Well, I mean, you can't testify if you're not 100%. I mean, you can't testify, but good Lord, man. Yeah, I mean, I think he says, like, I'm pretty sure it was Simpson. He was wearing Simpson's jersey. I don't know if that's connected. He was wearing, he had his numbers on. He had a football helmet on. I knew it was him.

Park then went and buzzed the intercom again, this time Simpson answered saying he had overslept and would be down in a minute. Driving Simpson to the airport, Park described Simpson was hot and needed the air con on, and he had sweat on his forehead. He also talked about the duffel bag that Simpson had insisted on carrying himself, which was about a foot and a half small, but big enough to possibly house the murder weapon.

Prosecution began to lay out the DNA evidence that they had, but since it was the 90s, the understanding and science behind DNA testing was nowhere near what it is now. Yeah, I think it was like a harder thing to sell to a jury at the time. Like this new technology. It was seen as more skeptic science. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Fung and Robin Cotton, also a criminologist, testified that due to Simpson's rare blood type, the possibility of the DNA found on the gloves and the victims belonging to anyone else was 1 in 170 million. I hate, I hate that, gosh.

Even if you don't know what DNA is, you would still not really question the authority of these witnesses, right? So you'd hear that like outrageously unlikely probability and probably be like, oh, so this is pretty likely it's the same guy, right? That's what drives me crazy about courts because it's all a shot in the dark about...

if the jury can like have reasonable thinking because they see a guy who like sure they don't get exactly what he means but he says something like well the chances are one in 170 million and they're like I don't really think I liked his vibe

I didn't really like didn't understand him. Yeah. I don't think I liked him. I'm going to choose to ignore that. Yeah. The guy doing nursery rhymes with a glove doesn't fit or quit like that. That was very compelling. Very compelling. That went pretty hard. Yeah.

It's like... I hope that the jury can think reasonably, because if not, we'll see where the case goes. I would like to think that if I was up there, even if Fung came out and he was the biggest nerd, just the most monotone voice that put me to sleep immediately, or he was just insulting me in between every sentence and I genuinely disliked him immensely, if he still said it was a 1 in 170 million odds that the DNA...

And how rare that is and how that ties Simpson to the crime. And he was an expert witness in the sense that his credibility was unquestioned.

Then I think, regardless of my optics on who he was as a person, I think I would believe that. I would hope... I don't know. I don't know, Jackson. Was he cool? Was he a cool cat? Yeah, Jackson. He's gonna come out doing like a kickflip or something on a skateboard. Did he have a nice suit? Did he have the vibes, you know? If only he put it in a digestible rhyme. Like, they should have fucking...

He comes out with the beatbox. Yo, I'm going to tell you about DNA. Yeah, like the Bill Nye section. Yeah, they should have had Bill Nye talk about DNA. Bill, Bill, Bill. It is so annoying how tightly connected the charisma of a witness is to how valid their argument is or how valid their testimony is to a jury. I hate that aspect of it. But I don't know what the solution is.

I don't know, maybe like the jury has to complete some kind of like logical thinking course perhaps. An IQ test, yeah. Yeah. They have to have like a 90 IQ to be selected for a jury. I mean, but there's 12 people in a jury. Surely the odds are that some of them are like smart enough to still be cool with it.

Yeah, but the issue is if you have like two smart people in there, they're going to get bullied in the conversation room until they agree with whatever the 10 others say who are entirely going by emotions and feelings. Like, yeah, yeah.

Anyway.

Fung had said that he was at the scene of the crime when he was given the blood sample and not in the lab. Even though this was a normal practice, Sheck made it out to be something harmful to the case and Fung never clarified. After his testimony, he walked to the prosecution bench and shook the lawyer's hand and then went to the defense table and did the same. Fung's disastrous testimony was an emergency for the prosecution as they now turned to damage control.

They had seemingly lost control of their most important piece of forensic evidence to an effective competing cross-examination and an apathetic prosecutorial response. Yeah. They called criminologist Colin Yamouchi to the stand, who held himself much better than Fung. He confirmed that all three, those being Simpson's, Nicole's, and Goldman's blood, were found in Simpson's bedroom. He testified that the blood evidence found in and on the multiple locations and evidence were without a doubt Simpson's.

At the defense's attempt at saying he had mishandled evidence, he clarified that he followed procedure to the letter and also effectively questioned the credibility of the defense team's forensic expert who had previously been found guilty of questionable conduct with the evidence items. Yeah, he fucking slam dunked him, it sounds like. Yeah, good on you, Colin Yamouchi.

kind of like a correction after the disastrous Fung situation it was really bad like what Fung did there like the jury sees him walk up and shake the hands of the prosecution and stuff that actually does play a little bit of an impact on how the jury is going to perceive events from that point on

throws into question his credibility. Especially if they're gasping at Colombian necktie not being understood. Of course they're going to see something like that and make unrealistic ideas about it. Forget all that DN whatever stuff. I don't understand what that means, but I saw a handshake and heard the word Colombian necktie, so I think... I may not know DNA. I don't know DNA, but I know USA, and that guy is not a Christian.

They should have called Toby Keith as a witness. We have Garth Brooks coming to the stands. Whatever you say, sir. Your honor.

One other thing I want to mention is that I think a really strong thing they could have played in is that how the fuck could Ron Goldman's blood be in OJ Simpson's place when they had never met ever. They didn't know each other. Like it's the most outrageous fucking thing. It's outrageous. But the jury, like the defense team is throwing into question the entire validity of DNA as a concept.

That's what the jury is, like, struggling with. Yeah, but you could also just disregard DNA and just say, like, we found his blood. Like, we know it's his blood. It was signed by him. Like, you don't even need to go down DNA. They had that nerd go up there, Fung, who they were like, was his blood found there? And what had happened is the DNA evidence was there, and Fung's like, no, there's no visible blood, but there was DNA. And to the jury who doesn't understand DNA, it's like, oh, no blood? I guess it wasn't actually there. And he didn't, like,

Fung should have clarified that DNA can be present without the presence of blood, but he didn't. And then he goes and shakes the prosecution. What this feels like, you know in high school when your school was going to go up against a really crappy school, so they put in their B-string

And then you end up losing the game because you underestimated like the bad kids, you know, the bad team or whatever. That's what this feels like. It feels like they were like, oh, this is a breeze of a case. Don't need to worry about it. So they just underplayed the whole way. Yeah, it should have been. But it unfortunately wasn't.

So yeah, the infamous bloody gloves were found by Detective Mark Furman, who was called in by the prosecution. This was another, some might say final, nail in the coffin for the prosecution. Furman talked about the night of the murder and what he saw at the crime scene, focusing on finding the gloves that were considered to be a central component of the prosecution's argument for why OJ was guilty.

He was questioned about how he responded to a call at Simpson's home in 1985 where he saw a woman crying and leaning up against a Mercedes Benz. He never reported the event and it was since determined that it was Nicole. He didn't call his supervisor to investigate, interview Simpson or Nicole, or do any further investigation on the incident. This also meant that he had suspicions against Simpson already.

Defense used this to argue that Furman had acted with an unshakable bias towards Simpson during the investigation. Defense also asked about the possibility of someone planting evidence, the unspoken implication being that Furman was compromised enough to be considered as the perpetrator, to which Furman couldn't answer if the opportunity for someone to do so was there or not. Oh my god. What the fuck? Have you ever considered that you killed her? Uh...

I don't know. I'm going to have to think about this. Wait. It gets even worse. Give me the gloves. Let me try it on. Let me try on those gloves. Oh my god, I killed her. I did it. Nice. It's all coming back.

Yeah, the defense team probably is that good that they could convince him that he actually killed her somehow. They're not that good. It's just these guys are that bad. No, no, no. They were actually really good. Like, credit where credit is due. They were playing their hand well, but it was helped by these people being unable to object at the right times and being unable to fucking defend the most basic shit. Such as saying like, no, I couldn't have planted anything. Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to the prosecution's inability to...

you know prepare their witnesses properly as well they they also it feels like the prosecution didn't know how to play it sounds like they were nerds like they didn't know how to play off of the charisma or like the the defense trying to poke holes and everything they were kind of just to the mindset of okay well if we show the facts nothing will bad will happen

Like they didn't consider that the facts themselves could get contorted around or whatever. When you think about it, half of the prosecution team was going through a messy divorce at the time and the other half was feeling like extreme guilt about his race and stuff. So it's like kind of like the entire team itself was compromised to some degree. Yeah. Charlie, do you want me to take the next part or you're good to keep going? I'll finish the Furman part and then you can take the afterwards. All right.

The defense team had found their path to invalidating the evidence and testimony. They struck quickly. Furman was asked if he had used the N-word when describing people, to which he responded, "No, sir." He was asked again if he had used it within the last 10 years, and he replied, "Not that I can recall, no." He was asked if he had possibly forgotten if he called someone from the African American community the N-word, and after some confusion, he said, "No, it was not possible."

Mm-hmm.

This was not a difficult feat to accomplish given the racial tension at the time as the Rodney King controversy had illuminated the LAPD as a deeply racist institution. It gets even worse with Furman down the line. He'll come back in a big way, sadly, which will be the actual final nail in the prosecution team's arguments. But you can take it from here, Isaiah, if you'd like.

After this disaster, Darden had his eyes set on the bloody gloves. He had wanted to make a show out of them to refocus the jury on the core idea of the evidence itself. He wanted Simpson to try on the blood-covered gloves. He wanted to keep the jury engaged, but his idea was struck down by Clark, who was averse to the idea of jury showboating.

However, now I do, I have heard this before. So do you have anything in here about the whole arthritis argument with the gloves? I think so, but we can talk about it if I don't, but continue. Okay, I'll continue. Gotcha. However, it was on June the 15th when everything came to a head. Early lunch was called and Robert Shapiro on the defense team quietly slipped into where the evidence was being held. Here, he tried on the bloody gloves.

Which I have no idea how this is allowed. Robert Shapiro's quote about it.

The defense knew this was the final thing they needed. They would be able to get Simpson off. They apparently went to Darden before recess ended and taunted him about if he would not get Simpson to try the gloves on, they would, showing how confident they were that OJ would pass the test. When back in the courtroom, Darden asked Simpson to try on the leather gloves in front of the jury. Clark was caught unaware by this and was visibly shocked.

Simpson walked into the center of the room standing before the jury. He wore latex gloves as he appeared to struggle to put the gloves on saying loud enough for the jury to hear too tight. He smiled as he did this. Many things. He's such a villain. Too tight. Can't get these gloves on. Ha ha. My wife's dead. Ha ha. Like he's a lunatic. Uh,

No shit. Absolutely.

Literally, if the defense comes up to you and they're like, hey, bet you won't do this thing in court. Why would you do that in court? As the prosecution. It's the worst thing you can do because of this next sentence, basically. Darden has gone on to say that doing this was an enormous mistake. It is the one thing for the defense to bring this type of evidence forward into deliberation, but it is an entirely different situation for the prosecution to bring evidence forward that inexplicably attests to the supposed innocence of the accused.

This only serves to go on to throw doubt into the credibility of the prosecution entirely. And it's one of the worst possible things a prosecuting team can do. Yeah, it's the worst thing that a prosecution team can do to throw in evidence that completely

completely like argues against their entire point basically like it just throws into their like into question their entire credibility at that because if the defense does something that makes oj look good it's like well yeah that's yeah that's what they're meant to do prosecution does then yeah it's like what the fuck how can we take these guys seriously when they're arguing against their own fucking case and presenting evidence to their like contrary and the same jury who doesn't understand what dna is isn't going to use that

as a counter to oh well the gloves look too small even though oj even though the gloves had been exposed to all kinds of dna testing even though he's wearing latex gloves under them like yeah they're not going to think about that they're just going to think about the prosecution looking dumb yeah enormous blunder like one of the worst things to happen in this entire case the defense took the jury on a trip to nicole brown simpson's house and then to simpson's home

They drove past the restaurant where she ate her last meal and 12 jurors and nine alternatives spent two hours inspecting where the crime happened. This was Simpson's first trip home since the incident and apparently he stood where the killings took place and practiced his golf game. My God, I hate him. Jesus Christ. He's just standing on the spot where he killed two people and he's practicing his swing.

Oh my god. So they physically took them there in person. Yeah, it was like a little expedition. Like, so they took a little field trip to the house. And as they're there, the guy on trial for murdering his ex-wife is practicing his golf swing. Yeah. Did they see him do that? I don't think they saw him do that. I think they were sequestered from him. Okay. Okay.

I'm mad again. No one could say anything to the jurors and they couldn't speak to each other. The idea was for the jury to visualize the sites where the crimes happened and Simpson's side of the story to understand the evidence they saw in the courtroom. Security was tight with a hundred police around, helicopters overhead, unmarked police cars, and a bomb sniffing black Labrador. That is how enormous of a national case this was. Well, it's also how much of a threat OJ was. He could have snapped it any time and started stabbing people in the head.

Don't leave OJ alone with the jokes. He's like an SCP monster. Don't turn your back to OJ. If OJ is practicing golf swings, SCP is Euclid. If seen with black gloves, Keter, Keter class entity, do not go in the house. Need a hundred police around to just guard at all given times.

It seemed this outing did not help the jury. They weren't allowed to be outside for too long due to the media, and it was eight months since the murder, and the houses were cleaned and many belongings were taken from Simpson's house. Some even claimed that the Bible that was placed in Simpson's house for the jury to see was a stunt by the defense. I absolutely believe that. They put a Bible in his house. I 100% believe that. Yep.

The defense brought in witnesses to try and target some emotion in the jury. They brought in Simpson's family, who testified how he was found when he was out about the murders.

Calling back to Ship, Simpson's friend, who previously said he believed that Simpson was guilty, defense questioned Simpson's daughter, Arneal, who testified she had seen Ship, a married man in a jacuzzi, with another woman, a woman who had the same hair color as Nicole, implying that Ship and Nicole were potentially romantically tied. Oh no, that changes who the murderer is for some reason. All the credibility is now gone.

Oh, we didn't think about that romance. Ew. This is also kind of incomprehensible because we already know how OJ was when he found out about the murders. He went on a police chase and tried to flee the country when he found out about the murders. Like, we know how he responded. Everyone knows how he responded. What the fuck? It's about reframing, Charlie. I know. I know what it's about, but it's still just so weird, like, as a jury member to just disregard that. It's like, oh, you mean he was upset? Yeah.

Yeah, didn't even think about that. The guy who got in a car, called the police, telling them he was going to kill himself and like got into one of the most televised events in history wasn't okay. He had some issues going on. I never thought about it that way. What? I like this man now. He's my best friend. Let's go golf together. Defense called Robert Hedstrom, a neighbor of Nicole's, to the stand. He testified that around 1040 p.m. he heard two men arguing.

One was yelling, hey, repeatedly, and the other was yelling back, but he could not make out what it was. Nicole's Akita dog was barking, and then he heard the gate slam shut. Do you guys think that if you were being stabbed like this, what would be your response? Would you keep yelling out, hey, or would you start yelling out the person who's stabbing you's name? I think I would try to do that. I'd be like, it's OJ. OJ is killing me. OJ is stabbing me right now, just in case anyone, the neighbor hears. Well,

two things one they probably weren't thinking that they were caught off guard and also when you're getting when you're being stabbed in the lungs you lose the ability to scream right so the hay was probably in the initial tussle of the fight rather than the actual killing yeah i know it's just a shame yeah not that it would have changed anything by the way i don't think yeah yeah because this obviously this case wasn't about facts yeah yeah yeah

Oh, so the police officer who was killing them told them to yell OJ is killing them? Likely story. Man, this police officer is real sneaky. The prosecution had placed the murders around 10.15 p.m., but even if they happened around 10.40 p.m., he still had time to take it home by 11 to catch his limousine to the airport if driving at the speed limit. Although it does question what was the source of the three thumps that Caitlin heard at 10.40 p.m. around the Rockingham Estate.

Which was Simpson's house. Yeah, Simpson's house. A heated exchange was had between Darden and Cochran when Darden asked Hedstra if one of the voices sounded black.

He said Hedstra, finally, finally the prosecution's like, uh, objection. Darden was, Darden's defense, he asked Hedstra if one of the voices sounded black, and then the, sorry, the defense team. Oh, oh, oh, oh, I see. The defense team through Cochran. I thought it was the other way around. Yeah, yeah. Of course, of course the prosecution still isn't. Yeah. He said Hedstra had told a friend that he could tell between the two men that one was a young white man and the other an older black man.

Cochran quickly identified this line of questioning as racist and made an improper objection. Darden hit back with, Wait.

The defense, oh sorry, the prosecutor, Darden, said, "If the statement is racist, then he's racist, not me." Why did the black guy go, "Oh, well if that is racist, I'm not racist. It's that guy that's racist." Why does he further validate the objection that was just made by the defense? - I'm a bit confused about it as well, honestly. - Yeah, the black guy was like, "Hold on, I'm not racist. The guy I'm questioning is racist, okay?"

who I'm trying to get a valid report from jury. That's the racist guy. Not me. What? Wait, the defense called this guy. So prosecution should be trying to discredit him. So I guess that's his way of discrediting. Okay. So I, by saying he's racist. Okay. So referring to headstruck, attempting to throw into question the character of the defense's witness, right? Like you said,

Judge Ito had to stop the argument that was brewing and called for recess. After recess, Hedgter claimed he didn't know what a black voice sounded like. He also said he saw a white vehicle, which could have been a Blazer, Jeep Cherokee, or the Bronco, pull up from around the corner at 10.45 p.m. It was heading south, though, instead of north towards Simpson's home.

I mean, it's a neighborhood. They could just take a right turn and then be back. Okay, whatever. Don't think about it too hard. Yeah, the ship was charting south. No way the sails would carry it north. There's another witness that testified, Francesca Harmon, who had driven by Nicole's house at 1030 p.m. He claimed he had not seen or heard anything out of the ordinary.

The American Airlines captain who flew Simpson to Chicago also took the stand and said he didn't see any cuts or anything on his hands. Although he did admit he wasn't necessarily looking for anything. I don't understand why this matters. We have photographic proof that he had a cut. He did have a cut. If the pilot of the plane did not see it, he still had a cut. No, it doesn't exist. He didn't see it.

It's just really trying to make them forget about the evidence. Correct. It's just furthering them from the irrefutable evidence. It's so stupid, though. It's so stupid. It is super stupid. Two airport employees were then also called, and they also testified they didn't see any cuts on his hands. But at the same time, while defense had made claims about his arthritis, the two employees saw Simpson carrying and picking up luggage with no pain or discomfort.

However, an employee who returned Simpson back to the airport in Chicago said that they noticed a bleeding injury on the knuckle of his middle finger on his left hand and described Simpson as distraught. The prosecution also played a fitness tape that had been filmed weeks before the murders. Simpson was lifting heavy items with ease, which would throw into question the claims of arthritis. Defense had been building up a theory that a woman called Faye Resnick was the intended victim of the crime.

They claim that Colombian drug lords were targeting Resnick. See, the Colombians do fit into this somehow. And their neckties. That was the defense sprinkling in the Chekhov's gun for later in the story. Ever heard of Colombian neckties? Well, they'll make a return in the third chapter of the story. They claim that Colombian drug lords were targeting Resnick, who, mind you, for everyone listening, is in no way related to anything that's happened.

who was a close friend of Nicole, instead of Nicole and Ron, and the brutality of the murder suggested the perpetrators could be drug dealers collecting debt. Resnick, who was often with Nicole, was known to take drugs around the same time.

There wasn't enough evidence to really lay down a proper theory surrounding this, but it offered the jury an alternative theory that helped bolster the doubts they already had from the prosecution's team's previous blunders. Ooh, here we go. This is the big one. This is the most stupid fucking part of this entire- This is when everything blows up, yeah. Yep.

To make matters worse, Detective Furman, the guy who previously was like, I've never used the N-word ever, and anyone who tells you I did is a liar. That guy. Detective Furman was now back on the stand. Defense had received 13 hours worth of taped interviews that were given to Lauren McKinney, a screenwriter who had interviewed several members of the LAPD over several years, from Furman, in which he used the N-word 41 times. Jesus Christ.

Holy shit. Actual, like, audio tapes of him saying- I'm surprised it wasn't 13 hours worth of him just saying it over and over again. Was he singing it? How did they have that much? In these tapes, he also would admit that it was police policy to brutalize black suspects and also plant evidence against them. Oh my gosh.

So this guy goes from, I haven't said the N-word in 10 years, to, well, it's policy to, you know, be mean to black people and also plan evidence where we find it available. So fucking stupid, man. He also spoke poorly of a female superior in the LAPD who he says got ahead through sexual favors. This woman was Judge Ito's wife, Margaret Ewell. Oh my god. This couldn't go worse for Detective Furman.

he's like standing sitting right next to the the man who he's like now saying yeah your your wife your wife's a whore bro yeah your wife's a whore that's how she got her job also it is policy to plant evidence on black people was he paid by the defense like a million dollars to ruin his career how could this happen when the evidence is so obvious how was the

prosecution not like object object object to like recess recess get them off the stand they're just sitting there like wow interesting points no i did i do think they tried to object to this line of questioning uh they did try to like censor the tapes themselves especially the part where uh he talks about margaret york the the wife of the judge because that does actually impact the case and could cause a mistrial um

Well, him also saying that they purposefully plant evidence on black people could also affect the trial, I think. Like, this guy is saying everything wrong for the prosecution. I don't think that could be objected at that point, because he's become a figure where, like, the entire defense team's argument is that the police planted evidence, and this is evidence of that. They framed OJ, yeah.

And that there was an unshakable bias already from Furman. Because the guy they had touted is like the LAPD's man is now saying that we try to get black people in trouble even when they're not. I mean, that is direct evidence to be used to support that argument. Yeah. She was the highest ranking woman in history of the first at the time and was Furman's supervisor. The tapes almost caused a mistrial with Clark calling for Furman to step down.

Many call Furman as the man who won Simpson his freedom. The jury ended up hearing a tape where Furman said the N-word twice, and he was also later tried for perjury, which he pled no contest. What an idiot. I mean, what a fucking idiot. Good job, dude. What an absolute fucking moron. Yeah, not to mention he lied on the stand under oath. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, man. Great. What a great. You know, there's tapes of you out there saying it 41 times and you get up there and you're like, I'll be the show guy. No, I've never said it before. And anyone who says otherwise is a liar. And gosh, dude.

I mean, he would have had to have... I'm assuming he told the prosecution team who he was their star witness for. He had to have told them. If they were unaware of that, that's so ridiculous. I mean, they're probably unaware would be my guess.

Furman was appointed his own independent counsel who informed Furman that he could assert his Fifth Amendment right, the right to remain silent. Oh my god, I forgot this part. It gets even worse, Jesus Christ. Furman began to utilize this for every question which the defense got onto. So they asked him if he had planted any evidence in the case and Furman pleaded the Fifth. No! No! Dude!

Plead the fifth to everything. Okay. Did you plan evidence? I'm not talking about that. I plead the fifth. God. Inherent guilt implication there. This is how you make an obvious, like he did it, guilty verdict into what it became through stupid, stupid people like this, man. Bad witnesses, man.

This was obviously an enormous blunder as it provided the defense ammunition for the alternate theory. He later recognized this was a mistake. Really? What about saying the N word 41 times on the fucking tape? Jesus Christ. Was that also a mistake? Gosh. Or like planting evidence and brutalizing people.

I've never said the N-word before. Actually, I've said it 41 times, recorded at least, and also we plant evidence on Black people, and also we brutalize Black people, and also I don't know if I planted evidence. What a despicable person.

Shakes the prosecution's hand on the way out. I mean, there's no argument. There's no... As bad as this case was in terms of, like, the racial bias interjecting in here, like, there's no doubt about it that the LAPD was a deeply racist institution. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, 100%. Obviously. I mean, the Rodney King stuff just happened. 100%. Yeah. But that doesn't change the fact that Simpson was guilty. Actually killed. Yeah. Yeah.

And he killed Simpson. He killed Nicole, and this is just an out for that, yeah. A forensic scientist, Henry Lee, took the stand and claimed he had doubts about the DNA evidence. There was no further explanation. I don't know if I fully trust it. I don't like it. Enough said. Thank you, Your Honor. Dian what? Dian who? There was no further explanation. He didn't need to say anything else. He's just like, I doubt it.

Mitty valued his word as he had an authoritative tone about him. Gosh, I hate how everything's one on charisma and was engaging with the jury. This is what I meant by charisma being the most important element of a witness. The prosecution struggled to an incredible degree with charisma and their numerous blunders sapped their credibility. In addition to that, Henry Lee believed evidence such as the bloody footprint were not Simpsons. This was later proven as incorrect in the civil trial.

Henry Lee later ended up being liable for fabricating evidence in a murder case that sent two men to prison for decades for a crime they did not commit. So the guy who said, I don't trust the DNA evidence was later found to have fabricated evidence to get two people sent to prison. Yes, correct. Yeah, he's a piece of shit. Wow, man. Everyone's a piece of shit in this case. Like everyone is awful. The prosecution's closing argument went over the DNA evidence again.

They reiterated that the blood was his and he had a history of abuse. This was really all they could focus on as they had almost universally butchered everything else. It can't be overstated how poorly the prosecution did with almost every aspect here. They pulled Daveed from the jaws of victory.

Again, they focused on the families of the victims, Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, who would have to suffer without their loved ones for the rest of their lives and as a desperate plea for an emotional connection between the jury and the victims. This fell on deaf ears. Defense spoke again on the racism that ran through the LAPD, clearly shown through Furman.

It seemed throughout the trial that the jury responded more to Simpson's families when they testified, so the defense reminded them of his family and children who now had lost their mother. During the prosecution's closing argument, the famous words were spoken, If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit. It is such an incredibly proficient and incredible rhyme that sums up the court case and the court defense argument of reasonable doubt.

It's really no wonder how it had become a hallmark of court history. Yeah. I mean, again, just a perfect capstone to it, a perfect rhyme to end it. Okay, let's get to the big part. The verdict. Was he guilty or was he not?

No one knows for sure yet. This is exciting. Okay, so many judicial pundits believe that there would be several months of deliberations between the jury members. However, the reality was far different. Deliberations only took four hours. They were in and out. The jury declared him not guilty and shockwaves that were clearly divided across racial lines were sent across the American public.

So, yeah, people were expecting this to take forever, the deliberations, but it was just straightforward for the jury. And they were universally on the side of not guilty. I think there were like two holdouts in the jury that were like, all right, well, let's just discuss this a bit. But everyone else was like, no, not guilty. And then they just followed. Think about what I said, right? Like, if you have two people in there who are thinking of the evidence, the 10 others will just bully them until they go with whatever the emotion of the room is, right? Like, gosh, it's so annoying.

Alright, Charlie, talk about the jury a bit to give a bit of, you know, context. Many now wondered why the verdict returned as not guilty. One reason seemed to be that the jury seemed to connect in favor of the defense and their witnesses more. The jury also had been away from their lives for over eight months. There was even a jury strike at one point. One day, 13 of them wore black to court as an act of rebellion. It showed Judge Ito was not in charge of his courtroom. Ito adjourned for a couple days, wanting to speak to the jurors individually.

A juror has come out and said that 90% of the jury knew Simpson was guilty, but the verdict was payback for the Rodney King case. Now, this clip after OJ's death started to kind of pop off on Twitter again. That clip, she just proudly says that it was payback. Like, they knew, but they did it for payback. Which drives me insane.

It's a crazy notion that you'll let someone get away with murder for payback. That's... Again, it would be one thing if it was like he was innocent to some degree, like self-defense or like there was some kind of... He brutally murdered two people in cold blood. He's a murderer. Just showed up to their house, killed them. Killed the mother of his children. Just...

In the most brutal fashion possible. And people saw that and were like, we should let this guy go because of another thing unrelated to this. You can hold both beliefs. Like the system is fundamentally broken in a racial way. And also still hold people accountable for their actions. And also OJ Simpson did it. How about we hold people accountable for what they do instead of just becoming like this...

This awful gotcha game where we try to keep one-upping the other side. Yeah, it shows. It's awful. Awful. It's childish. It's very juvenile. Yeah. Yeah.

So Rodney King was an African-American man who was savagely beaten by police officers. The incident being caught on camera and broadcast to homes across the nation. The police who were caught on camera beating Rodney King were acquitted and it was the beginning of the 1992 riots. Awful situation, by the way. It's no wonder why what was caught on camera there. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. I'd never seen it until this situation, like during the research. I watched the video and it was like awful. Like one of the worst things I've ever seen. 100%.

Yeah.

Jury equity is a principle largely recognized in the legal system that occurs when a jury acquits the defendant even though the evidence may suggest guilt, often because of the jury's sense of fairness and justice even if it deviates from the strict legal interpretation. This power of juries to nullify the law is a long-standing tradition in common law jurisdictions like in the United States. There's absolutely nothing that says a jury has to return a verdict of guilty if they don't wish to.

Juries are not merely meant to determine guilt or innocence based solely on the letter of the law. They are also tasked with assessing the fairness and justness of the law as it applies to the case before them.

While judges instruct juries on the law, they do not have the power to dictate how the jury should reach its verdict. This is quite rare, but it's believed the outcome of the OJ case is one of the largest examples of jury equity, which has existed since the 12th century, given the context of racial bias taking precedent and deliberations. Yeah, so there's no kind of like, they're completely fine to reach the conclusion that they reached. There's no kind of things prohibiting that.

It's just an awful, awful example of jury equity, in my opinion. Like, it's ridiculous. I don't know how else to put it.

Another famous one from back in the day, it's not jury equity by any means, at least not from what I recall, but Casey Anthony, if you remember that one. Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, she was dead to rights and for some reason, inexplicably, it shocked everyone that I knew. My parents were fucking pissed. She was found innocent from out of nowhere. So sometimes it's not always going to be like a case of the jury, you know, fighting internally for what they believe is fair and just. Sometimes it's just, man, don't.

They're fucking dumb. Yeah, they didn't understand the evidence or something like that. Yeah, that's not an example of jury equity, definitely. That's just fumbling the bag, really. This one, I think, is a pretty clear-cut case of jury equity in the sense that, I mean, you have someone coming out saying they know he's guilty to the letter of the law, but the verdict is payback. That, to me, is...

It's not jury nullification, but it is specifically jury equity, which is different to nullification. They let bitterness over a justifiable situation to be bitter at. They let that be placed somewhere it shouldn't have been. Yeah, absolutely.

Alright, so the subsequent trials. Charlie, do you want to also take this one? In 97, Simpson was paradoxically found guilty for the wrongful death and the double murder by a civil jury. He was ordered to pay $25 million in punitive damages to the families of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. This same jury also awarded $8.5 million in compensatory damages the week prior. This is a statement from Ron Goldman's father, Fred.

The jury's decision of last Tuesday was the only decision important to us to find the killers of my son and Nicole responsible. The money is not an issue. Never has been. It's holding the man who killed my son and Nicole responsible. My heart breaks for his family, like their families. Well, not Nicole's family, but Ron's family. They seem like this has affected them so deeply for their entire lives and for their son's killer. Like that initial outcome for that to happen. Imagine how fucking just heartbreaking that would be.

Yeah. And imagine like being found not guilty of the murders of them, but then being found guilty for the wrongful deaths in the double murder of them. It's fucking ridiculous. Yeah, absolutely ridiculous.

The jury had to determine if Simpson was the killer before they could make any compensatory or punitive awards, and after the verdict was called, Simpson was not in the court when it was made, the jury said that the plaintiffs had more than made their case. And this is a statement from Juror 11. Finding OJ Simpson liable of the murders and acting with oppression and malice was one of the easiest decisions I have ever had to make. Surprising.

13 years to the day after he was acquitted from double murder, OJ Simpson was found guilty of 12 charges of conspiracy to kidnap and arm robbery in Las Vegas. Memorabilia dealer Tom Riccio made Simpson aware of two dealers that were in possession of Simpson memorabilia. He held the two sports memorabilia dealers in a room at Palace Station Hotel and Casino where he stole two pillowcases full of Simpson memorabilia from them on September 13, 2007.

His accomplice, Michael McClinton, was brandishing a firearm. The items he had been trying to retrieve were apparently lost while attempting to hide them from the Goldman family in their civil case. Yeah, so he had to give up all his goods or whatever, sell all his goods to pay off the Goldman family for the civil case for all those compensatory damages. And because of that, all of his goods are like...

hidden across the country through several memorabilia dealers and stuff so he tried to steal them back so he goes to steal back the stuff that he had to sell because he had to pay out the family of the people he allegedly murdered but not allegedly in civil court what a fucking narcissist he's absolutely a narcissist

I just scrolled down to double check. You did mention the If I Did It book, which does like the civil case here actually plays into that book a little bit as well in a very creative way. So Simpson paid $125,000 bail on September 19th, three days after being arrested, where he returned to his home in Miami, reportedly breaking his bail conditions. He was extradited to Nevada, his bail raising to $250,000.

Simpson's lawyer, Yale Gallanter, spoke to the jury and said that Simpson never intended to commit robbery, he just intended to retrieve his personal memories of his career and family life. He said, "Being stupid and being frustrated is not being a criminal." Killing two people is no... What? Oh my god. He accidentally robbed them. Like, what the fuck do you mean? He went there with a gun.

He didn't mean to brandish a firearm. He just had one. Poor, innocent, defenseless little OJ.

Judge Jackie Glass held a tight ship during the proceedings and the jury were clearly told that Simpson must not be punished over previous double murder charge. One possible juror was actually dismissed before trial started because she had said she felt Simpson got away with murder. Judge Glass knew that having such an infamous person tied to the case could allow for the jury to attempt to gain some sort of fame. So she firmly told them that if that is what they were trying to do, this wasn't the case for them. Why can they kick out juror members for this?

for this, like having some kind of, you know, uh, they know bias bias, bias that wasn't connected to the case itself, but they couldn't have done that with the initial jury in terms of like, they were clearly thinking about things outside of the case itself.

It's so annoying.

He was sentenced to a term of 9 to 33 years in prison for his involvement. Simpson was eventually granted parole in 2017 after serving 9 years of his sentence. He then went to Twitter and started posting Twitter shitposts. Yeah. On a golf course. At least he served some time, I guess. He sold the inside of a prison cell. I mean, he should have been in there for life, obviously. Yeah. Alright, so to close us out,

The crazy part of this story is the book If I Did It, published in 2007. This book featured Simpson's hypothetical, this word was repeated numerous times in interviews that he gave, account of how he murdered Nicole and Ron, if he did it.

Could you imagine if like your wife, your kid, your sister or whatever was horrifically murdered. This guy gets off. He spends the rest of his life as a multimillionaire and then writes a book about how he hypothetically killed your family member. How he would have done it if he did it, which he absolutely did not do it. Wink wink.

How about this, though? Imagine you're one of the people that found him innocent. Yes. And then he writes a book about, like, how he would have killed them if he did it. Like, come the fuck on. Bro, but, like you said, they know he's guilty. It doesn't matter. I know. Like, if there was ever anyone in the world that doubted it, like, this should be this truly the one that gets you to the side of, like, reason. Like, what sensible person...

would write a book about how he would have killed his wife and another man. Like, it doesn't make any sense at all.

Yeah. Unless he was the killer. He's absolutely the killer. My wife died and I didn't do it. Anyway, here's a book I wrote about how I would have killed my wife. How I would have killed my wife that I definitely didn't do. It's such a narcissistic thing to do. Like it really calls back to like how serial killers would send in like letters talking about their crimes and stuff because they want the attention about it. It really like, I feel like he wanted the credit almost or it's like gloating.

Imagine if your wife died and then if you didn't do it, imagine writing a book about how you would have gone about murdering her. Yeah, it's a fucking wild notion. Wild notion. This book, understandably, caused a lot of controversy. Judith Reagan from Reagan Books claimed she received a call that Simpson was ready to confess, but only if he put an if in front of the words, I did it. Otherwise, he said he couldn't face his children again.

What do you mean you couldn't face the children? You mean the children that you made fucking orphans, basically, because you killed their mom? He is putting out a book while his children are still alive about how he would have killed his kid's mother. How did no one kill this guy? How did no one, like, gank him? Gosh! He's so annoying.

I hate him. Where's this frontier justice I hear so much about? Gosh, it's frustrating.

A judge ruled that all profits from the book would go to the Goldman family to satisfy a $38 million wrongful death judgment against Simpson. That's the one highlight of this. The money goes to the family. So I guess in some way can see the book as a confession. A confession. Yeah. Not that it really means anything because they know that everyone knows that he did it. Yeah.

like there's no real kind of benefit here to them other than I saw also they uh the way they formatted the book sales because they had to say and how it was publicized is it says if I did it OJ Simpson it was a really small if in the top left it's like tiny you can't even see it it just says I did it on the front cover really clever

In his later years, OJ Simpson had been battling prostate cancer, something he made public in May of last year. He posted numerous videos to Twitter claiming that he was in good health and beating the cancer. You know, say what you want about him, but he was consistent, a liar up until the end. He also denied hospice rumors in his final health update in February this year. He says that although he was dealing with some issues, he was good and hoping to be back on the golf course within a couple of weeks.

However, on April 10th, Simpson had died from his battle with cancer. His family released a statement on his ex account. On April 10th, our father, Ornthal James Simpson, succumbed to his battle with cancer. He was surrounded by his children and grandchildren. That's more can be said about his victims. During this time of transition, his family asked that you please respect their wishes for privacy and grace.

This is the first time and last time I'm probably ever going to say this, but yay. Yay, he died. I have a code about myself to never take pride in anyone's death, just because as a Christian, you know, a soul lost is a soul lost. That being said, he was afforded a much more comfortable and peaceful death after many years than the people whose lives he stopped shortly. Yes. Of course.

Many, allegedly, many look to the families of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman during this time and how they must be feeling with OJ Simpson being plastered over the media again. Ron Goldman's family released the following statement. The only thing I have to say is it's just further reminder of Ron being gone all these years. Fred Goldman said in a phone interview, it's no great loss to the world. It's a further reminder of Ron being gone.

Just again, like in the kind of ridiculousness of the case and, and the just brutality of OJ Simpson himself, we lose, we do lose sight naturally kind of, of the victims themselves and the effect that it's had on their families. Maybe not Nicole Brown Simpson's family, since they kind of profited off this immensely through book deals and stuff like that. But Ron Goldman's family, they lost their son.

And they've dealt with the repercussions ever since. And it's just tragic. It is really sad about how they were affected in this way.

Yeah, and I'm sure too. I know there's that line about Simpson's dad told her to get over the abuse stuff because it was profitable to him. So there's definitely some level of culpability there, in my opinion. But I'm sure there was some suffering too on his behalf when his daughter died. And the only evidence of corruption we have is the father. I'm sure other family members of Nicole suffered through this. Yeah.

I'm sure on all sides there was tragedy, I'm sure. And like I said, there's something about that tweet Simpson's family made like, oh, well, just so everyone knows he had a peaceful death surrounded by family. Whereas the lives of Ron and Nicole, they went out bloody screaming the worst way you could imagine with her children in the next room. Yeah.

It's not fair. And there's no fairness or justice to it. And the fact that OJ getting off was done in a way that what seemed to be revenge so that they could get some justice for what the LAPD had done is... Every layer of this story has a misapplication of a bad deed coming out. It's tragic. It really is tragic.

It's an awful situation. I have some anecdotes here that I want to quickly go over just to cap this show off. So in his book, Simpson outlines a hypothetical scenario where he describes going to Nicole's home with a friend named

quote, Charlie, whom he claims accompanied him to confront Nicole after he was told Nicole was seeing someone. He recounts a series of events, including a verbal argument escalating into a physical altercation during which he claims he would have hypothetically blacked out and regained consciousness to find Nicole and Goldman murdered. The book itself wasn't released due to the public outrage, obviously, but however...

Sorry, in the first place, it wasn't released, but eventually the rights to the book were later acquired by the Goldman family as part of the civil lawsuit judgment against Simpson, and it was published with commentary by the Goldman family. So that's how he describes the actual murder in his totally not real hypothetical example of how he would have killed them.

Going over to their house with a friend is interesting. That would have been... That is interesting. He's saying that Charlie... What was the name of the guy who owned the Bronco? Al, I think.

Is he saying that Al drove him there and like waited outside while he went in and then OJ comes out, gets in the car and they drive off. Okay. Yeah. Was Al ever questioned about what he thought was happening or anything like that? I don't remember him taking the stand, but he surely he had to be since he was driving the Bronco during. I'm sure it was, but I, I,

Yeah, he would have to. He would have to have been. But I doubt, like, if it's not in here, it wouldn't have produced anything worth talking about. Sounds like. All right. So the next anecdote is Faye Resnick, who you might remember as Nicole Brown's close friend, wrote and published a book detailing all sorts of sordid personal details about Nicole Brown after her death. So she is awful. She's honestly an awful human being as well. Like, she aired all her dirty laundry after the fact.

Wait, this is the girl who the defense tried to say was the actual attempted target, right? Yes, the target. Awful human being from everything I've read. When asked why she published a book essentially publicizing all of Nicole's secrets, dirty laundry, and personal details, she said that a psychic had told her that it's what Nicole would have wanted. Actual fucking lunatic. I hate these people. I hate everyone. Gosh. I hate everyone, man.

Wow, she... I just looked her up. She looks like the kind of person that would say that kind of shit. Yeah, 100%. So annoying.

uh next anecdote almost everyone in this case and trials sought to profit off the show the show i'm calling it a show because it was a show basically it was a show yeah with many published publishing their own books about the events almost everyone comes across as incredibly unlikable i was just gonna say were there any people in this case we could look at and be like i like them maybe that second forensic guy who like cast a doubt on the first one you know

hmm the second guy who came to the stand yeah he was like actually this is how dna works maybe him i can't think of anyone else who like did a good job like i like only one yeah

I'm trying to think. Everyone else had, like, fucking skeletons in their closets and fucked something up. Well, no. There was probably some that did just fine. It's just they weren't notable in the case. Nicole's sister, right? The one who they tried to say was an alcoholic at the beginning? Her early crime was being an alcoholic, yeah. Yeah, she was fine, right? Like, she didn't do anything. I mean, maybe she made a book and profited off of it later. But honestly, at that point...

Like, if your family member's murdered and there's no justice, yeah, steal that guy's book. Throw his confession out there. Make money on it. Anything to bleed him, right? So, even if she did profit off of it, I really don't care. The people that I'm mostly talking about with the profiting... Exactly, yeah. Yeah, it was the defense team. Like, every single lawyer brought out their own book after this and went on their shows and stuff. Judge, Faye Resnick, obviously, even though she...

lost her friend her releasing all of her friends close friends details after the fact is just just such an awful thing to do let let the family get something out of it everyone else can go bite it yeah i agree yeah all right the final the final anecdote ford re-released the bronco in 2009 on oj's birthday

Which, there's no way that was on purpose. There's absolutely no way. It definitely wasn't on purpose. No, there's no shot. There was a 1 in 365 chance of that happening. How would it not be on purpose? And it just happened. That's it. There's no way. There's no way Ford was like, this is a great idea. They probably wanted the PR from it or something like that.

No. I don't know. I absolutely believe they did it on purpose. Fucking scumbag move that a corporation would totally do. The company. Oh, okay. All right. I found an article about it. It was announced publicly that they were going to showcase it on July 9th. After being informed that it was OJ's birthday, they pushed it back a week to July 13th.

Yeah, maybe they wanted to do it on his birthday, but then they were like, there's no way, bro. Bro, there is no possible way. I mean, we know the odds. It just happens. It just happens sometimes, man. Like you just choose a date and it's like, oh shit, there's already something on that date and it's not good. That would be one thing if it was any other vehicle. It was the Bronco. It was the specific vehicle.

Also, this happened... The Bronco came out a couple years ago. It was re-released, right? Yeah, it's 2020. It's re-released. 2020, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So this was 2020 when this happened. There is no way in the modern age of the internet Ford thought it was an effective marketing campaign to sell. It may have been re-released in 2020 as well. This specific thing is about 2009, though. Okay. But still, probably your argument still stands.

I think it's still the same. But I think it's like corporations don't fucking care. They don't have morals. I'm not saying they morally care. I'm saying they had to view it as a bad business move. They probably viewed it as a joke that people would laugh at for some reason because it's stupid. I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think so. All right. So we're divided.

Two people think that they did it accidentally. I think they did it on purpose and then they backtrack. I will say this. Not only is the OJ Simpson case the only high profile case I can think of where after someone was cleared of charges, they never looked for another killer. Not only that, it is also the only case I can think of where someone murdered someone else so hard that they quit making a car because of it.

Did they actually stop because of that? It was right after this happened that they quit producing the Bronco. If I recall right. They discontinued it for the first time after this. If I recall correctly. I wonder if that was actually from a direct implication of the trial and stuff. Like they actually stopped doing it because of that. Or if it was just different reasons. That it ruined the image of it. I don't know.

I know they quit for a while and if I recall right I remember hearing it was after this case because there was so much bad juju around the Bronco they just moved on to other lines for a while before re-releasing it now um yeah could you imagine like you do a crime and they quit making Honda Civics I saw a tweet that said that it was like uh imagine if they quit making Hondas yeah like yeah so ridiculous all right so to wrap this episode up what are you guys final thoughts I think we've got everything but let's just sum it up yeah

OJ guilty. You know, I'm going to say since there's not really, you know, since the case was never solved, I think I think we need to give this OJ guy a second look. I think something pointed at OJ. I think maybe he knows more than he's letting on. Maybe that's worth the idea. I don't know. I'm just a YouTuber. Who knows? But.

OJ, definitely guilty. Awful situation. Massive mistrial, in my opinion. Also, Mark Furman, Detective Mark Furman, awful human being and a ridiculous witness to call. Like, call anyone else at that point. I think that's the thing that lost the case the most, obviously, I think is Mark Furman's entire testimony.

That should have been stopped immediately as soon as the prosecution team figured out, hey, this guy said the N-word 41 times on camera. That should have been completely kiboshed. Yeah. Just a ridiculous level of incompetence by everyone apart from the defense team, sadly. So, sad situation.

as a last statement, this is off Wikipedia. According to Ford, the discontinuation of the model in 1996 was unrelated to any stigma created from the then-recent OJ Simpson chase, and it was just because sales of the model line had been in decline previous to the incident. However, I would say the reason they probably declined so much really quickly has to do with the OJ Simpson chase, so yes. True. You don't want a car that's going to go that slow in a police chase. Ha ha ha!

Yeah, that's what people took away from it. Man, 20 miles an hour? Can't be seen in that. It's not a good advertisement. Alright, that's going to do it for this episode of Red Thread. Let us know if you think OJ is guilty. Can't even finish that sentence. Let us know who you think really did it in the comments below. Would you, oh, okay, maybe a better question. Would you have voted guilty or not guilty? Even knowing

even knowing that he was actually guilty. Let us know. Yeah, if you knew that someone was guilty, would you say they're guilty or would you say they were not for another reason, perhaps? Straight up, everyone that voted not guilty in that case, I think is an awful human being. I'm just going to say that. I think you're an awful person. Like I said, it's childish. It's pathetic. Yeah.

Yep. All right. That's going to do it for Red Thread. Thank you guys for hanging out. Thanks to the sponsors for sponsoring the episode, making it possible. And thank you to all of you for listening. Remember to rate us on Spotify if you enjoyed the episode or if you enjoy the show. That really does help so much, probably more than you'll ever know. And leave us comments and stuff because I read them all and I enjoy the comments. They're a lot of fun and it helps us as well in terms of engagement. So really appreciate that.

Other than that, just stay tuned for more Red Thread in the future. Thank you very much. That's it. Bye. Thanks. Bye-bye. Bye. Don't kill people.