07: The Waco Siege | Red Thread
02:33:50 Share

This episode is brought to you by Experian. Are you paying for subscriptions you don't use but can't find the time or energy to cancel them? Experian could cancel unwanted subscriptions for you, saving you an average of $270 per year and plenty of time. Download the Experian app. Results will vary. Not all subscriptions are eligible. Savings are not guaranteed. Paid membership with connected payment account required. ♪

so

It's a sweltering hot day and your skin bristles as sweat droplets cascade down your forehead. You listlessly pace underneath a tin sheet roof, a feeble attempt to cool yourself down. You think you heard somewhere that moving around instead of standing still creates some kind of cooling effect. You're a mechanic though, not an egghead scientist. Plus, it's the 90s. That theory hasn't been proven yet. And at the end of the day, you're really just a guinea pig desperate to try anything that might beat the heat.

Hey, come to think of it, it's probably the metal sheet roof, right? The heat is probably like trapped in the mechanic's shed with you bouncing around from all the vehicle metal and ricocheting off of the enclosed tin roof. Yeah, that probably has something to do with it.

I'm sorry. The conversation with yourself is so good. But it's the 90s. I don't know that exists yet. Yeah, yeah. This is a grip. Sorry, I didn't mean to break it up. Maybe you should go stand outside instead of walking around inside what is ostensibly at this point an overheating sauna. All of these hypotheticals and scientific questions aren't helping and now your brain feels like it's overheating.

Really, it's pointless daydreaming anyway. In truth, you need to be inside regardless, because you're waiting for the supervisor to approve your work you had just been labouring over for the last 72 hours. A gruff voice breaks your, by this point, played out in a monologue. "That's some damn fine work there, son. You're a testament to the Bureau." The immediate relief, borne naturally from earnest praise, cools you off. Maintaining these government vehicles, a lot of which are hand-me-downs from the military,

Whatever school it is that makes the most sense here.

The vehicle you've been working on, an M1A1 Abrams tank, is a rarity though to be sure. It's a first for you. It took you and your entire team and a correspondence team from the FBI all week to ensure that it's leaving in fighting condition.

And hell, by all the mumblings in the break room, it sounds like it's going to need to be in fighting condition. Apparently, it's off the line and headed to a place called Waco in Texas, where a bunch of religious fanatics are holed up in some kind of compound, while the FBI attempts to talk them out. Why the FBI would need a military tank to put a stop to them is beyond you, but apparently negotiations have been faltering for days now, with several bureau agents already dead in the initial raid.

Welcome to the red thread!

That was an adventure. I had no idea how that would tie into Waco at any point in time. I felt like we had just gone on a side quest. That was so good. Bro, I knew exactly what the episode was about and I had no idea where it was going. That was so good.

Neither did I, trust me. Welcome to the Red Thread, and this week, contrary to what the first few minutes may have led you to believe, we're not covering the intricacies of how the FBI maintains their military hardware, but we are instead taking a look at the Waco cult and the FBI siege that would elevate it to historic renown. A story of government overreach and an end-of-days apocalyptic cult stockpiling weapons are what you're getting in this episode.

And thankfully I brought with me the right people for the job. Isaiah and Charlie, how are you guys doing? Hey, feeling good. Happy to be here, brother. You ready to learn about tanks? Yep. Yep. I'm so excited we get to cover the tank episode. I'm ready.

You're the expert on this one. I'm ready to get mad. I'm ready to be upset again. I can't talk about Waco without getting flustered, so here I am. I've got my coffee. I'm ready to go. In the lead up to this episode recording, like in our Discord conversation, the only thing I ever heard from you is, I'm mad. I'm getting mad. Every time you remind me, it's like Vietnam flashbacks. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to see just how mad you get because I'm familiar with the case, as I'm sure a lot of people are, but I guess I don't have as much anger inside me as you might. So I'm interested in seeing...

If I can get as mad as you, if you can convince me to be as mad as you. Okay. Yeah, that's a good challenge. But before we go on, though, I just want to mention, as I do at the start of every episode, that we have a document of our research and sources below in the description that you can peruse.

We're also on iTunes, Spotify and Amazon Music as well as YouTube. So you can watch us wherever it is that is most convenient for you. We make it happen. We make it possible so you can listen to us anywhere. And also I've seen, I don't know if you guys have seen, but I've seen some really cool fan art floating around and I really want to like put a place to shout that art out and show them off in like future episodes of future video versions of the episodes. So if you're interested,

So if you send through any art, please use the hashtag #RedThreadArt on Twitter and that'll just make it easier for me to collect and put into the outro of future episodes with credits included. And finally, a big thank you to Current for sponsoring this episode of The Red Thread and you'll hear more about them later on in the episode. All important links and information will be found in the description for you so just go check it out. But that's enough for notes.

um yeah waco waco any immediate thoughts boys it wasn't it wasn't a good wasn't a good time in our history yeah that you know i don't want to get too too hot takes out there right away but controversial controversial but i think i'm going to uh agree with charlie and say not good no no good negative bad bad don't like i don't like it don't support is it

Is it taught in schools at all? No. When you guys were growing up? Was it a civics lesson at all about government overreach? No. As a matter of fact, it is completely stepped over. Never mentioned. It's like, Bill Clinton was president and there was some controversial stuff. Anyway, that's kind of like, at least when I was a kid, like...

History class wasn't interested in anything in the last, like, 40 years, you know? It was always, like, you know, Foundation, stuff like that. Maybe we got to JFK, but that was, like, the end of it. That was still developing news at that point. Yeah. Like, we don't know for sure what happened with JFK. Right.

Guys, I'm not sure, but I think this is going to be a big one. All right, so let's keep our heads on. That's always like a bit of a meme that like American high schools have like outdated textbooks and stuff like that. Stuff that's not continuously kept up to date. Is that at all true? Yeah, for sure. Well, but it's also like he mentioned, focused on like older like history as opposed to newer history. So for me, the last...

thing like the most recent thing we covered was vietnam and like uh hey hey lbj how many kids did you kill today or whatever it was that whole series and that's where we left off is the lbj president during vietnam it was there was a lot going on during that time but that whole uproar in that entire situation is where they left off the history for us yeah i mean vietnam

Vietnam was like the 70s or the 80s? It was the 60s. Oh, Jesus. 64 to 68. Well, in that case, like, I don't know. That's fairly recent in terms of school education, I would feel. Maybe not. That's like 40 years ago by the time you were going through high school. So, yeah. Okay. That is pretty outdated.

I wonder if they teach about it now, now that we're all out of school and have been for decades at this point. I wonder if they teach about it now. I would imagine they teach 9-11. I really, I have a strong suspicion that they're up to there. Do you think it's like revisionist history though, or is it pretty critical of America? No.

Nah, I don't see how... I couldn't imagine the textbooks being like, actually, it's bad that we did, you know, stuff we did or whatever. Like, it's probably just like, these are the events that happened. But of course, like, they're not going to bring up... They're not even going to touch on stuff like Waco because it's way too... It's way too anti...

narrative, or just like off the wall for what a history class is trying to do, give you the timeline. They don't want to step off into side plots, so to speak, that question. Yeah. I guess Waco, in the grand scheme of things, for those of you that don't know, Waco, to sum it up as best we can in this short synopsis here, Waco was like a... It was a place where a bunch of religious people...

branch Davidians, a cult ostensibly, kind of congregated and stockpiled weapons illegally, so the government says, and then they raided the compound and tragedy ensued from that. So it's always pointed as to a situation where the government kind of overstepped their bounds and kind of enacted a tragedy that didn't necessarily need to happen. So it doesn't look great for the government, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know why you're asking us. I mean, that's entirely up to the person listening. It's a very polarizing topic on whether or not what they did was justified or a complete overreach.

Yeah, and I guess we'll get into that right now. Hold on one moment. I do want to make a quick apology. I was like, no, shut up, you're wrong about Vietnam not being in the 70s. Formally, the war in Vietnam ended in 75. So you are still correct, Jackson, and I love you. Continue. I thought it was during the 70s as well, definitely. Yeah, I didn't know when it started, though. 60s definitely sounds more right, though. So...

Isaiah, let's start to go over the British Davidians itself and how they started. Victor Hoteph. Do you want to talk about him? Yeah, absolutely. So, Victor Hoteph was born on March 2nd of 1885 in Raykovo, Bulgaria.

He immigrated to America in 1907 and quickly established himself, building his own business. Joining the Seventh-day Adventist Church in 1919, he became deeply involved during a tumultuous period following the death of the church's founder, Ellen G. White. As...

a brief that oh you already I was about to talk about a brief thing about the Seventh-day Adventist Church but look at this my friend Jackson already has one typed up I doubted him who could believe that I needed that for me I have no clue what the like Seventh-day Adventist Church is or like what it encompasses what its belief structure is or anything like that what it's even an offshoot

So I definitely needed this little note in our sources and document here. Well, yes, I'll read it for everyone because Jackson, like it's so, it's so cool that he just types out stuff that needs to be typed out. And he doesn't just talk off the cuff. I wish I could do that anyway.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church, an Adventist Protestant Christian denomination, distinguishes itself through several key beliefs and practices, most notably its observance of Saturday as the Sabbath. This practice is rooted in a literal interpretation of the biblical creation account, emphasizing rest and worship on the seventh day as a sign of covenant with God.

Central to their faith are the 28 fundamental beliefs, which articulate doctrines on God, humanity, salvation, the church, and in times, including the Trinity, the Bible as God's infallible word, and the ministry of Jesus Christ. The church's unique eschatological...

Sure. Belief in the investigative judgment starting in 1844, wherein Christ began a second phase of atonement in heaven, reviewing the lives of all people to determine their eligibility for salvation, set it apart from traditional Christian eschatology. So I know several people who are Seventh-day Adventists. The main thing, like from the outside looking in, that separates it is Saturday being their Sabbath.

that actually falls back on Old Testament principles because

In the Old Testament, it was Saturday, like the seventh day was the Sabbath, but then after Christ died on the cross and all that, the belief of the church was to give your first fruits to Christ, so instead of the last day of the week, it became the first day of the week. So Seventh-day Adventists kind of keep the old belief. So is that much of a drastic difference to regular, well, let's say more traditional, you know, religion? Not really. Christian religion.

Like, just to change the day of the Sabbath? I mean, it changes a little bit how you interpret some scripture, I guess, but not really. It just means they go to church on Saturday is all. Yeah, instead of Sunday, right? Yeah, right.

That doesn't seem too massive of a change to me. That's pretty much it as far as the actual practices that are different, to my knowledge. There is differences belief-wise. Yeah, the interpretation of the scripture, I'm sure, is different. Exactly. Interpretations are different. Most Seventh-day Adventist people I know are much more Revelation or End Times focused than a lot of other Protestant beliefs, stuff like that. Not in a doomsday cult sort of way. There's just more so an emphasis placed on it.

than say in like you know baptist or uh presbyterian or something like that um but yeah just a branch of christianity it's got you know several million members uh it's definitely not some weird offshoot but the guy we're going to talk about certainly is a weird offshoot

How popular is the Seventh-day Adventist church in comparison to other religions? Like, how niche is it? Is it up there as one of the more popular denominations? I mean, it's definitely part of Christianity. I wouldn't say it's one of the more popular. I'd say the most popular within Protestant belief are things like, you know, Baptists,

maybe Lutheran Church of Christ, Lutheran stuff like that. Right. Seventh-day Adventist is more niche, but like I said, there's still several million members to it. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't seem like a number to scoff at or anything like that. So yeah, definitely not niche and definitely not to the level of, well, not, not on the same, uh, kind of obscurity as what it would eventually splinter off into with the branch Davidians here, which is what we'll go into eventually. Yep. But yeah. Uh,

So over the next decade, Hotef, Victor Hotef, delved into intensive study of the Bible and White's writing. So again, LNG White was the founder of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Unsatisfied with specific interpretations of the book of Revelation, he authored a manuscript named The Shepherd's Rod, which is a very phallic sounding name, inspired by the biblical account of Moses' rod in the Exodus narrative of Israel's liberation from Egypt.

And in 1930, Hutef distributed 33 copies of his manuscript to other leaders of the church seeking to like discuss it and maybe get some reflection and some other ideas brought around in the old church with all these friends and stuff. Despite this effort though, only two leaders really responded to it. Like kind of giving cursory engagement, nothing like substantially meaningful, probably just like a, you know, a pity glance really.

And Hutef persistently sought dialogue, though. He just continuously went on about his shepherd's rod. But his attempts were met with resistance. And eventually, in the face of this continued dismissal from the Seventh-day Adventist church, he was disfellowshipped from the church itself. So he was cut off. He was disfellowshipped.

What's it called in fucking John Wick? Excommunicado? It was Excommunicado. You made the pop culture reference this time. Yeah, he's rubbing off on me, which is an awful way of saying that. Sorry. It's a great example, though. They took his badge and his gun and said, you've done a terrible job here. Get out. Yeah. Which, really, that was the beginning of...

Victor Hutef's life from this point. They didn't really punish him. They set him free, in my opinion, because he would then go on to establish the Shepherd's Rod Seventh-day Adventists and settled in a location known as Mount Carmel, just outside Waco, Texas. Now, was it called Mount Carmel before they got there? No, no, he names it that because there's... Mount Carmel is a location in the Old Testament where the prophet Elijah performed miracles against the prophets of

Like, uh, not Jezebel, Ahab's priest and stuff like that, so he names it that, it wasn't called that when he got there. Also, fun game for the audience, count how many steps we get removed from the Seventh Day Adventists, cause by the time we ended up at Waco there's a lot. This guy's already like- So right now we're one step off, we're just the Shepherd's Rod kind of deviation from the Seventh Day Adventists.

Do you... So, just very briefly, just to maybe give a little bit of background, what is the shepherd's rod and what does that actually mean in the sense of shooting? So, like...

A good rule of thumb is anytime a religious leader says, Hey, the religion's not good. Uh, or like this religion has problems with it, but mine's actually better. We should go live somewhere and talk about it. That's an immediate out. Like that never ends well for anyone. That's definitely a red flag. Um,

So anytime that happens, it's always a bad thing. Bad things come of it. Like I said, with Hotep here, we're just on step one, but already telling everyone to go move to this place in Texas so they can be more in tune about his new revelation regarding religion. It's also really funny to me how all these guys, assuming he just he wasn't just a con artist, which he might have been. But it's also it's always funny.

that these people believe God is real, the Bible is real, stuff like that. And they're like, and now, for some reason, God has decided to give me, a random man in California, all of the knowledge and no one else. Yeah, like he just switched up his playbook. That happens all the time, even today. Like Kenneth Copeland, he's like, well, God told me I need these private jets so I can be closer to him and relay his word. Stuff like that, yeah. Instead of in a tube with the devil's...

With the unwashed, yeah, it's disgusting. Makes me sad. Although, to be fair, it would be a lot cooler if it was called The Shepherd's Private Plane Adventures or something like that. Oh man, yeah, The Shepherd's 747. We can get that going. Look, the culmination of this podcast I've decided is a new religion, alright, so we'll be brainstorming names along the way.

Yeah, but you're definitely right. It's odd to see that these individuals are apparently so invested in religion. They've got this built up belief system from early on. He was religious from the get-go, basically, when he immigrated to America. It's weird to see them have this kind of belief and then they take it in a narcissistic direction where...

It becomes self-centered around them and they kind of prophesize themselves as the savior. I don't know. I don't know. Like you said, maybe he is just a scam artist, but I don't really see a lot here where he kind of scammed his individuals or scammed people. Like, sure, people move to this place.

But by all accounts, it became a pretty large kind of hub, like there was an educational center, a school, a bank, agricultural projects, retirement homes... I mean, he may have believed his own hype to a degree, yeah. Yeah. But like, what kind of cult compound has, like, a retirement home and stuff like that? The best kind...

Yeah, a lot of them kind of try and form their own society around there, like we've seen that before. We've seen these kind of centralized societies and stuff like that, but this sounds more like he actually turned it into a thriving, bustling town, from what I read anyway. I mean, like, relative to the number of people there, yeah, I mean, they had a lot going on. But also, they were living under one guy who said God talks to him and no one else, so, like, how bustling could it be? Yeah.

Not a lot of things to be bustled in that situation. So anyway, despite ongoing rejection from mainstream Adventist leadership, the Davidian movement, it was now called the Davidian Seventh-day Adventist Church by this point, expanded under Hutef's guidance and he continued his prolific literacy work. And by the mid-1950s, Mount Carmel was producing and distributing approximately 50,000 pieces of literature each month.

So that's fucking crazy. He was on an outreach mission just constantly writing. To give you an idea, you might get into this later on in the episode, so apologies if I'm skipping ahead, but the Davidians, like this level of removal from Seventh-day Adventist church, is still a religion to this day. He definitely had some impact. Oh, really? Yeah, there's still people who identify as Davidians. Not the branch Davidians that we're going to get to later, but just Davidians under what Hotep believed.

Wow, that's crazy. Okay. Interesting. I guess we will get into it, but the Branch Davidians are so far removed from what this was initially created as. Alright, kids. Step one. We're on. Move one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And additionally, ministers launched a hunting campaign in 1953 canvassing neighborhoods across America and even internationally to spread their message. I've actually heard, I don't know if it was during the Victor Hutef era, but I have heard of Branch Davidians or Davidians in general, I guess, even spreading their messages to Australia, which we might get into in the future. But yeah, that's kind of wild that it extended all the way across the Pacific Ocean to Australia. Yeah.

Which at the time, this was the 50s or whatever, pretty niche country if I don't mind myself saying. I can't believe that it actually extends across over here even. But Victor Hutef died February 5th, 1955 of heart failure and the movement fragmented into several other fractures, each with their own interpretations of Hutef's teachings, creating hostility and variation in number among the splinter groups. And where do we go from there? Well, naturally...

You go to Florence, who, Tef?

Continue. I thought you were going to say something more about Florence. So after this, we get to learn more about Florence. And she assumed leadership of the Davidians. She married Victor in 1937 and had very significant ties with the organization, with her parents contributing $10,000 towards the down payment of the Mount Caramel Center, which at the time is clearly a lot. She continued Victor's teachings and beliefs, but struggled to navigate the challenges of leadership.

In a pivotal meeting with members, Florence announced that she had received a divine revelation proclaiming that on April 22, 1959, the prophecy would be fulfilled and Jesus Christ would return to Earth. In anticipation, members sold their homes, businesses, and belongings gathering for a meeting that commenced on April 18 with approximately 900 attendees. However, when April 22 passed without incident, mistrust spread amongst the members, causing division within the movement.

Recognizing the rift, Florence relinquished her leadership role and sold Mount Carmel property of Benjamin Rodin. So, correct me if I'm wrong here, Isaiah, but the Jesus returning to Earth, that's the end times, right? So, if he returns to Earth, that's rapture. Okay. Yes. That's why everyone, like, sold all their shit. And if you guys remember, I'm sure you do, I think...

what was it like 20, 2011, 2012, there was that radio pastor was like, the rapture's coming. And like a hundred, yeah, like a hundred, 200, whatever, how many people sold all their shit, got an RV and then like tried to get like a good view of the end of the world or some shit. And then the radio host was like, well, I guess it didn't happen. We,

Yeah, Harold Camping. And then after that, he tried it again. Came up with another date. Yeah, that guy was... He can't be wrong twice. Yeah, I mean, he's dead now. Yeah, he can't be wrong twice. He's dead now. What really killed me about that guy is all the people who sold their stuff because they believed him would go on interviews like, I'm mad. I feel scammed. It's like, buddy, you deserve it. He didn't tell you.

No one ever said when Jesus comes back, you have to like give up your business. You can just still have it when you get raptured. What is selling everything going to do? Like you're going to drive out of the desert? I'm going to get raptured with a lot of money in my hand. I'm going to be raptured unemployed, baby. That's how we do it.

Yeah. Why can't, why can't Jesus Christ ever just visit us casually? Why does it have to be the end times though? Like, why can't he just come back and not be raptured? He probably wants to, but it's already been like established that if he does, we're all getting raptured. So he's like, damn, I can't just come say, to be fair, to be fair to him. The last time he did it, we did kill him. So that,

That's true. Yeah, he might not be happy. Is the idea that he... This is exposing how religiously uneducated I am. Is he coming back with a vengeance? No.

No, it's not like a revenge plot. It's the opposite, actually. He's not like, I'll teach them. If they want to put me on a cross, I'll show them. No, no. I've been waiting thousands of years to get my revenge. No, no. I'm coming in hot. Thousand-year-old grudge. The whole idea is he came to Earth as a man and then died on the cross to remove sin from us, or to give us the opportunity to remove sin, so to speak. So...

That now is the time of the church where we believe in him, the age of grace, so to speak. And at the end of that, he comes to earth to take the Christians back home with him to heaven, is the idea. So this is kind of like our forgiveness period, like we're trying to like...

uh, you know, worship him and well, worship God and stuff like that in order to get in their good graces. Oh, pretty much. Uh, you have the opportunity to trust Christ to be saved through the blood that was shed on the cross. And if you believe in the blood, if you believe in Jesus Christ, then when you die, you return to what humanity was meant for originally. And that's companionship with God in heaven.

Basically, the idea is like Adam and Eve were created to be companions with God. Sin separated us from God. So then Jesus gave us a way back. And that's through the sacrifice of the cross. Yeah.

Right, so he's like the deus ex machina of the belief system. Man, you got all of the pop culture references rolling over Charlie today. You're keeping him flowing. He's the key to our salvation, though. Yes, yeah, Jesus is the salvation. Because sin...

poisoned us, it had to be something sinless that was sacrificed to take it away from us. And the only sinless thing in the world is God. So God was made flesh, went to the cross for us. So if we trust in him, it's not us that's doing the saving, it's belief in him that does the saving, basically. Understood. Okay. Okay, great. Yeah, Charlie, you're going to need to step up the pop culture references. I can't take them all. I'm trying to fill in the empty space left by you and it's just, it's crashing. I'll work on it.

Thank you. Let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor for this episode of the podcast, Current. Don't you guys just agree with me and think that banks absolutely suck in this day and age? I have so many bad personal experiences with banks, just stuff like unnecessary fees, which always just feels so frustrating when they come through. I hate them. And they cruise by, the banks cruise by on being established agents.

entities basically that are able to just cruise by because they were here first. They set up shop first. The best thing you can do and the thing that I personally recommend is stop banking with these old set in their ways groups and instead get Current. See, that's a clever play on words. You're getting Current. You're out with the old, in with the new, in with the Current. Current is banking and credit building together. They make it easy to get your money as soon as possible, build credit safely and save more all in one easy to use app.

You can set up direct deposit, get paid up to two days faster, and you can also qualify for fee-free overdraft up to $200. That's a lot of money. Also with that build credit, you can build credit safely using your own money so you don't pile on debt because spending on the build card is reported as a credit card transaction.

which helps establish a credit history with a record of on-time payments. It really is an incredibly useful tool to building your credit safely and it's like a highlight feature because really you don't go into debt because you're using your own money. It is a super safe way of building credit and that's fantastic when all the other old banks want to just fill you up with debt basically. This is a great way of building up that credit without going into debt.

And the best part of Current, other than this awesome card, which feels very good to use, is that there's no annual or minimum balance fees. I highly recommend checking out Current and giving it a chance because really it is just a super effective way of saving money on banking and an effective way of building credit easily and just an incredibly satisfying way of avoiding all those minimum fees and stuff like that.

And personally, I really do not like those established banks and how they seem to want to force you into debt at every corner. So this is brilliant for that. So get Current, the future of banking now by going to current.com slash red thread or download the app. That's current.com, C-U-R-R-E-N-T.com slash red thread.

terms apply. You can find the links in the description. Current is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group, member FDIC and Cross River Bank, member FDIC. For full terms and conditions, visit current.com or call 888-851-1172 for more information. Thank you to Current for supporting the show and thank you to all of you in the audience for listening to the sponsor and supporting the show in that way. It really does mean a lot to all of us here on the show. And now back to Waco. So

We've just left Florence. She's relinquished the role. I did want to say about Florence. Do you think that she was just desperate to get out of this situation? That's why she set up the April 22nd thing. It is very funny to be like, you're questioning my leader. Oh, I'm getting a transmission. Hold on, everyone. Yeah.

why does this keep happening they keep doing it and it keeps working because it keeps working that's why people people are like oh okay this day yeah exactly it is still a very effective strategy that works to this day if you say it was god talking to you telling you to do this yeah brother there was a fucking crypto scammer who went on record a couple weeks ago he said you know what yes we did pocket 1.3 million dollars of the three million you invested

But it's because God told us to do it. And there were so many people that forgave him for it. Well, it's like, well, fuck.

What am I going to do? Fight God on it? Clearly you're not, you're in good faith right now. Yeah. Like such an epic excuse, but that's not what I meant. I meant the setting, setting the actual date. Like all it sets you up for is immediate, like immediate failure. Obviously when it doesn't happen, immediate failure and immediate mistrust in you. Like, it feels like her setting this date was her being like, I just want to get out of here. I just, I need a way out. Kind of.

Because she immediately, like pretty much after that, everyone mistrusted her and thought she was just a liar. And so the rift happened and she relinquished her leadership role. So everyone, Florence, step two. We're now two degrees removed from the church. Yep. Yep.

And now we go to Benjamin Rodin. This Benjamin Rodin is the person who the Mount Caramel property was sold to after everyone quit trusting Florence when you know she was wrong about the rapture and all. So Benjamin Rodin was born on January the 5th of 1902 in Bearden, Oklahoma. In 1940, Benjamin and his wife Lois were baptized in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. However...

By 1946, Benjamin had transitioned from the Seventh-day Adventist Church to the teachings of the Shepherd's Rod with the Davidian Seventh-day Adventist Church. So basically, he was a normal Seventh-day Adventist, and then decided to come join the Davidians. Followed them over, yeah. Yeah. In 1953, Benjamin and his family briefly resided at Mount Carmel when he developed his unique interpretation of Scripture.

While maintaining belief in the second coming of Jesus Christ, Benjamin's interpretation of the scripture allowed for greater flexibility, which he believed was revealed to him by God through a prophetic gift, providing insight into God's plan for the movement. So now we have, like, keep in mind, we have one guy who says he's getting a transmission that makes everything else fake.

and you need to come live with him and then a guy that's already there is like i am also receiving one of those that this is even more fake so everyone's getting these transmissions god damn it yeah they got these antenna wired out of their heads they're getting beacons and everything it's crazy charlie now would be a great time to make a reference to some towerhead satellite dish person got anything anything

not you're gonna have you're gonna have to use some time to let it ruminate a bit man charlie you're off your game today my guy there's not a whole lot of pop this is just like in space jam when michael jordan stretched himself yeah there you go awesome my man that there is he's wait wait wait what about this is just like the time the moon communicated with us through transmission and moonfall there we go

That's pretty good. Okay, the moon. Jesus, you've never even seen the moon. No, indeed. The inside of the moon communicating with us. Oh, you're talking about the very... You're spoiling the movie, Jackson. That's a reference, though. Are you telling me people are going to come here to learn about the Branch Davidians and get moonfall spoiled for them? Guys, we are professional podcasters. Yeah, nothing is sacred. We can't let this happen.

Keep it together. That is an enormous selling point. I've just sold that movie to a million people or however many people are watching this. They're going to go watch it now to hear the moon's message. I hope.

Anyway, as Benjamin spread his message, he garnered followers who began identifying themselves as Branch Davidians, a development that clashed with Florence Hotef, with whom Benjamin had strained relations. Upon Florence's assumption of leadership following Victor's death, Benjamin and his followers departed from the movement.

Following the disappointment of Florence's failed prophecy, Benjamin acquired Mount Carmel, now expanded to 77 acres for the Branch Davidians. The central theme of Benjamin's teachings was the significance of the restored state of Israel, viewed as a preparatory sign for Christ's return to earth. Benjamin traveled to Israel and established a small community of followers there before his passing in 1978. So...

So he took the sign that Israel had now become a state over in the Middle East as kind of like a sign that Christ was coming back. This was the time. I've heard a lot of people use this logic. Obviously, it didn't happen. But I've heard a lot of people use this logic. So in the book of Revelations, there's a point that says, after the children of God, the children of Israel are rejoined or whatever, in the generations to come,

I will return, you know, the rapture will happen, whatever. So some people have taken that as literally a generation. So like 70 years. So if Israel was established in 1948, then therefore the rapture somewhere around the like 2010 area, right. Or 2018 area, right. Somewhere in there. So, yeah, a lot of people have used that to kind of say the rapture is going to happen like right after the year 2000 or somewhere in that region.

And it seems like our boy Benjamin here was one of those who saw the reestablishment of Israel and then lashed onto that. So basically...

So Benjamin decides he doesn't like the Davidians, so he makes a new group out of converts called the Branch Davidians, right? So then Hotep dies, his wife can't control it, she makes a false doomsday property, needs to sell the place. So then the Branch Davidians come and buy the compound from the Davidians. So now the Branch Davidians are at the place where the Davidians started.

Yeah, there's like some inner conflict there between the two splintering of groups and now the Branch Davidians are sweeping back through to claim the land and all of that kind of stuff and take over. So it's kind of like an internal coup almost. Also, to keep track for the scoreboard, we are now three degrees removed from...

They've started a new religion twice so far, keep in mind. It's not the most stable religion, let's put it that way. After Benjamin died, Louis Rodin, or Lois Rodin, his wife, assumed shared leadership of the Branch Davidians alongside Benjamin, so they were both co-owners.

until his passing and then following Benjamin's death Lois became the sole president directing her teachings and beliefs toward a feminine or the feminine aspect of the Holy Spirit this emphasis resonated with the growing female movement of the 1970s so that was like a PR win I guess for the branch of Indians oh this will get them what the kids are missing yeah

And then, in alignment with her focus, Lois began publishing a journal titled, uh, Shekina? Shekina, if I had to guess. Shekina? Okay. Uh, exploring women's roles in religion. So she was pretty progressive, is that the right word? Progressive? Uh, yeah, I mean, comparatively, sure. Yeah, comparatively. However, her leadership faced challenges when she encountered Vernon Howell. Dun dun!

Yeah, fucking dramatic music, intimidating music needs to kick in there. A man 25 years her junior who arrived at Mount Carmel in 1981. Howell, later known as David Koresh, reportedly seduced Lois and claimed to have impregnated her, alleging that God had chosen him as the father of a chosen one.

Lois sadly miscarried, prompting Howell, or David Koresh as we'll come to know him, to assert that it was divine punishment for mismanaging the church's finances.

And then following Lois' death on November 10th, 1986, from natural causes, at least I assume, like allegedly. Yeah, she died of natural causes, yeah. She was pretty old, yeah. I don't think there was a lot of foul play there. Yeah, but there could be. There's about to be, in the next section, there's about to be a lot of not natural deaths happening. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. This gets, this go, Charlie, if you don't know the background to the branch of idiots, this goes from like zero to 10 really quick. Yeah. I only know how it all ends. I don't really know the journey there. So I'm interested. Sick. Okay. So sorry, Jackson, I mean, to cut you off, you can finish up that paragraph. No, it's all good. Uh, so following Lois's death on November 10th, 1986 from natural causes, her son, George Rodin, who I believe is from her previous marriage. Yes. Um,

vied for leadership of the Branch Davidians, but however, Lois had aligned her beliefs with Vernon Howell, otherwise known as David Koresh, leading to internal disputes within the movement. So she had kind of like... It was meant to go to George Roden, and it will go to George Roden, but her beliefs had kind of been tied to this new figure, David Koresh. The politics within Mount Carmel were really weird during this time, because you have... Okay, so...

The ranch Davidians who were there are all loyal to Benjamin Rodin. Cool. He dies. Wife takes over. That's fine.

Then the wife starts to change her ideas. Something else to mention is that subtly Vernon Howell kind of changed some of the ways things were done around the church. Kind of like, I remember there was stuff about like he added more music to sermons. Lois would say that she can't give sermons, so sometimes Vernon would just do the sermon for her. Like this Vernon guy is assuming more and more of a leadership role. And during this whole time, her son George Roden hates this guy.

Because he feels like Vernon's trying to take over the assembly or whatever. So when she dies, a lot of... Trying to take what is rightfully his, apparently. Like, what he believes is rightfully his. So when he dies, or when she dies, when Lois Roden dies, you now have this weird split where she said her son should have it, but everyone's been listening to Vernon preach for years. So who were they more in allegiance with, right? And that's where hijinks ensue. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's definitely set up for like some kind of house of cards kind of political drama internally. Alright. Yeah, so George Rodin, we've got a little bio here about him as well, because this is where it starts getting crazy, as you just said. Alright, so, after his mother's death in 1983, George wrote an assumed leadership of the Branch Davidians. However, tensions flared at Mount Carmel between George and Vernon Howell. What? Did she die in 86 or 83? Yeah.

Oh, you're right. There's a script. Hold on. That's probably just a typo. I can do a quick check. Hold on. I'm going to assume it's 1986. You've got to get these dates watertight. Jackson, don't make that mistake again. My bad, boys. Jackson, we're not going to pay for that anyway. No!

How am I meant to afford my raises now? We're docking your pay in this three-way equal partnership. Charlie and I have started a union and... Sorry to hear it, Ben. I won't have an accurate season here, Jackson.

After it's it is I do appreciate one of my favorite things is someone who's like watch Charlie's content for a long time is a lot of it's laid back but in this show he's like locked in he's like we gotta get this right. Fact checker. Yep yep I like it I like it. Fucking he's Snopes over here. Dr. Snopes. It makes me feel special Charlie's what I'm trying to say anyway all right so.

After his mother's death in 1986, George Rodent assumed leadership of the Branch Davidians. However, tensions flared at Mount Carmel between George and Vernon Howell, exacerbated by Lois's permission for Howell to teach his own doctrines,

resulting in Hal garnering a small following. Okay, I want to say I'm sorry, Jackson, for saying everything that you were about to say at the next paragraph. No, I would honestly prefer it to come across naturally, so that's fine. Say whatever you want. We can just cut stuff out as well. Gotcha, gotcha. George sought to quash Hal's teachings entirely

but how allegedly continue to teach clandestinely. That's a good word. That's such a cool word. That is such a good word. Me and you at the same time were like, wow, that's a cool word. I fucking love using that word. It's so over the top for what we're describing as well. Yeah. No, it's perfect. MI6 or something. Like, for example, Charlie and I started in a union as a clandestine operation of this podcast. That just slowed. Yeah.

Fueling a power struggle between the two men. Eventually, George forcibly expelled Howell and his followers from Mount Carmel at gunpoint, prompting them to relocate to Palestine, Texas. Hey, I have a question. Like, is that significant at all? Like, that it's called Palestine? Like, was that a place before? Palestine's a fairly, like, maybe not large, but well-known city. Like, decent population. So it's probably just, I'm sure it's just coincidence. Okay.

George subsequently renamed Mount Carmel to Rodenville, which also just as soon as the cult leader names the city after them, get out. That has never ended well. Sounds like an amusement park. That's hype.

charlie would be there like let's hear him out that sounds kind of cool i like what he's cooking up there guys as long as he puts in a roller coaster charlie's happy that's fine charlie sitting in the back of sermons with like the little spinning wheel hat like a lollipop in his hand he renamed mount carmel to rodentville

And for a period, the two groups resided in separate areas of the town. However, in 1987, issues arose regarding unpaid back taxes on the Mount Caramel slash Rodenville property, totaling over $62,000 dating back to 1968. That's a lot of money. That is a whole lot of money, especially for back then. County officials threatened to seize the property and auction it off, leading George to take legal action.

During the proceedings, he made inflammatory remarks to the justices, including a veiled threat invoking biblical plagues, stating, quote, Maybe God will make it up to you in the end and send you herpes and AIDS. The seven last plagues. An interesting interpretation of how that goes. Yep. Yep. I love his picture, by the way, every time I see it. It's such a good...

The cowboy hat with the flag. Oh my gosh. Very patriotic, man. In response to a deed filed by Vernon Howell that ousted George Rodin as president of the Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventism and named himself, Rodin allegedly took drastic action. He reportedly...

exhumed the body of former Branch Davidian Anna Hughes from the Center Cemetery and challenged Vernon to a macabre contest. Whoever could raise a soul from the dead would be deemed the true leader. What a psychopath.

I know. Could you imagine, like, you're having a legal dispute with someone, and they're like, you know what? See this? See this body? I bet you can't bring it back. I bet you can't. But wait, why is he bluffing? He can't, like, surely he knows he can't bring it back either, right? No, he's very clearly mentally unwell. I bet he thinks he can by, like, doing some kind of, like, Tai Chi maneuvers over her body and fucking putting the soul back in it. I thought you were going to say, like, fucking weekend at Bernie's. Like, he's got a whole stream of...

Like puppeteering contraptions set up to trick everyone. Ventriloquist sit. That'd be huge. However, instead... This is such a funny phrase sentence. However, instead of engaging in this challenge, Vernon reported the incident to the police. Like he was there. Yeah, he was there. And he's just like, okay. Just like drives down the road. I'm not touching that. I'm not dealing with this guy.

I'm going immediately to the cops. We're going to go on to find out that David Koresh or what was his other name? Vernon Howell. Vernon Howell. Like, not a very bad person as well and very mentally unstable as well. And even he was like, holy shit, this guy's fucked up. I got to go to the police about this. Yeah. I'm out.

Yeah. The authorities, citing the need for concrete proof, declined to take immediate action based solely on Vernon's words.

Yeah, I guess it is possible, because it's very clear that David Koresh, or Vernon Howell, was trying to take over, take as much power as they could. It's entirely possible that a lot of this is made up by Vernon Howell/David Koresh as a means to undermine him, but we also have other first-hand accounts, like the quote with the justices about the AIDS and the herpes.

I think that apparently like he was so crude that judges remarked like it was the most despicable like case they've ever dealt with that like killers aren't as mean as this guy was from the stance like everyone hated this guy. So it's not out of the realm of reason to do something insane. Yeah, I believe it. Yeah.

Also, just to keep up, this is now four degrees removed if we're on our main man over here. Undeterred, Vernon and seven followers secretly infiltrated Mount Carmel on November 3rd, 1987 in an attempt to photograph Anna Hughes' casket. Their mission, however, ended in a shootout with Rodin, resulting in the arrest of the eight men. Subsequently, they were acquitted and charges were dropped.

Meanwhile, George Roden found himself in legal trouble as well. He was sentenced to six months in prison for contempt of court stemming from threatening language he used during the tax battle. So this guy goes to jail for words. That's how annoying he was. Saying that you'll get AIDS or whatever, the seven last plagues will visit your household. But with the Vernon, the David Koresh plan to sneak in and photograph Anna Hughes' casket, I don't really get what

They were intending to do that. It was for the concrete proof that they had exhumed the body and that this guy is a danger.

Oh, okay, yeah, I was like, I was, but I was like, how do, how do they prove that he was trying to, like, bring Anna Hughes back from the dead? I thought it was like a necromancy kind of case where they're trying to prove that he was trying to bring her back. But yeah, I guess if it, I'm assuming exhuming a body is illegal as well, so yeah. Yeah, that's already a crime in and of itself. Yeah, that makes sense. Is necromancy a crime? Is that like, is that codified?

that's probably in the book somewhere you can't try and perform necromancy i would imagine yeah it's gonna be there is one more detail i want to mention there so in 1989 uh shortly after this whole contempt of court thing all that happened um when he got out uh rodent still maintained some leadership for a time he actually goes back to jail when he's declared insane and all that uh for killing a man

Oh, he killed a man. In October of 1989, he killed someone named Waymond Dale Adair. Basically, to tell you the level of insanity Rodan had built up, Adair came to Rodan. I believe it was at the trailer Rodan was living in, or maybe his house. And he tells Rodan that he's having visions from God. And Rodan is convinced that this is one of David Koresh's people that has been planted.

Because he's so paranoid about Vernon doing something that he takes an axe and kills him right there. Holy shit. Jesus fucking Christ. Yeah, just axe murdered someone. So he goes to jail for that. And then the part about the escape and death and all that. So Vernon had got in his head so much that he just killed a guy who he thought maybe might be related to Vernon.

Yeah, that is crazy. It's very obvious then why he was eventually declared insane in 1989. Yeah.

and sentenced to treatment, I guess, at Big Spring State Hospital. But almost a decade later, in 1998, he managed to escape from the hospital and he was later found deceased on the north side of the hospital grounds with indications suggesting he had succumbed to a heart attack. So he escaped and then died from a heart attack on the escape, I guess. That sounds like the work of Vernon Howell yet again. LAUGHTER Yeah. LAUGHTER

Probably, we can assume. No, it was the ghost of Anna Hughes that got Rhody. She popped up out of nowhere and gave him a heart attack. I also want it to be appreciated that, like, there was a period of time before Vernon got kicked out where they both lived in Mount Carmel with their own groups, and they were, like, having what can only be described as, like, prank wars with each other. Like, maybe, like, Rodan would be like, "Oh, sorry, you all can't use that room today, we're painting it."

you know vernon's like well where do we go and rodent's like i don't know you just can't be here so then in response vernon would like throw his a shirt away of his or whatever and then the event that got him kicked out is a fire started in like on like rodent's side of the building i think from a microwave uh or not microwave like a like a stove top or whatever and then as soon as correct as soon as vernon howell found out he's like huh

Maybe God did that. Maybe God wants your oven on fire. Who knows? To be fair, in my opinion, David Koresh started this all by fucking his mom. That's a good way to start a fight with a man. That's a compelling argument. I feel like there was maybe some resentment there from like,

Yo, this dude's banging my mom. I don't like this. Yeah. Yeah, maybe he's the reason that Rodan's insane. Maybe Rodan was right. Maybe that guy who he killed was sent by Vernon to mess with them. No, seriously. Imagine being, I guess, George Rodan in this situation and having this kind of cult or this religion that you would...

You felt like you were destined to... Eventually take over... Because it was your birthright or whatever... And then some super hot... Well... Attractive... Charismatic individual shows up... Pipes your mum down... And then takes over your cult... Like...

I'm sure there was a lot of deep-rooted resentment there from the very beginning. That'd lead anyone to axe murder, you're right. Well, no, I didn't say that. Clearly he didn't say that. I think Jax is saying what we're all thinking. It's okay to axe murder some people if they, you know, they lead into it. And Jax is very brave for saying that, I think. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. Let's dive into David Koresh now. I'll take this one. It's time. Yeah, go for it. It's time.

So he was born Vernon Howell on August 17th, 1959 in Houston, Texas. His mother was only 15 when she had him. He never knew his father, was raised by his grandparents. He had a lonely childhood. He wasn't great at school and was dyslexic. But besides this, he had great musical ability and interest in the Bible. By 12 years old. That was a really mean sentence, Jackson. I like him. I'm not a fan. You're just ganging up on this kid. Yeah.

Sorry, Charlie, go ahead. By 12 years old, he had memorized large chunks of it, and David Koresh turned to the Seventh-day Adventist church when he was 20. At 18, he made just enough money working in construction to put a down payment on a Silverado, which he kept filled with rock tapes. During this time, he would practice playing guitar for hours and was idolized by a lot of younger guys around him in the community. He wanted to be respected by them. Debbie Owens, his 16-year-old girlfriend at the time, is quoted saying...

He was a typical teenager, a rocker who carried his guitar wherever he went. Man, so George probably just thought this guy was so fucking cool and he was having sex with his mom. He shows up in his fucking pickup truck, blasting music, comes in, bangs his mom and leaves. Like, come on. Yo, I'm gonna start preaching here. Is that cool, man? It's my church now. I'm gonna take over. Everyone fucking idolizes him and shit. Like, come on.

As he returned to religion, Koresh at first seemed to express guilt over his past, his sexual activity, and playing rock and roll. Similar to past moments in his life, he started to gain attention of younger members in the church and would engross them in conversation. During this time, Koresh saw revelation seminars conducted by evangelist Jim Gilley. Koresh was convinced that Gilley had a piece of the puzzle missing, the seventh seal.

As described in the book of Revelation, the seventh deal binds a scroll held in God's right hand that prophesizes the calamities that precede the apocalypse. He was convinced it was time to have a new prophet and a new light in the Seventh-day Adventist church, and he could be just that. With the church disinterested in his ideas, Koresh then made a move to the Branch Davidians. He began to claim the gift of prophecy and started to teach his own message called The Serpent's Roots. Sorry, yeah, go on.

which gained a small following in the group. Jackson, was there something you didn't know? No, I was like, go on. I was like, continue. So you stopped me to just remind me to continue? Okay, so Discord cut out there. There was silence, so I started talking, and then you cut in, and then I said continue. Interesting. Very interesting. Okay.

It also caused immediate contention. David, who had been having an affair with Lois Roden, the leader at the time, who was in her late 60s. When Lois died, there was a power struggle between her son, George, and David. After George, Roden had forced David and his followers out of Mount Carmel by gunpoint. They returned in late 1987. They carried assault rifles, high-caliber rifles, shotguns, and nearly 400 rounds of ammunition.

And during the following fight, George Rodin was shot in the chest. David Koresh went on trial for attempted murder. I mean, that's just made me giggle that George Rodin caught a fucking mean one. He ate some lead. It wasn't like he was in his room doing homework or anything like that. He was in the fight. He was like, yeah, it's like a...

So it's not like an unlucky, just an unlucky moment for George. Like this was a... After everything that's been established, it's funny that David has sex with his mom, plays rock music, then shoots him. George cannot catch a W at all.

So when he was on trial for the attempted murder, it ended in a mistrial. And then Koresh became the leader of the Branch Davidians in the late 1980s. It gets even worse for George. Like this guy shoots you in the chest. It goes to court and they're like, nah, he's fine. He shoots you in the chest on your property.

And he just walks out. Oh, it's another funny detail about that. Apparently Koresh was so... Or Howell at the time. He hadn't changed his name yet. Vernon Howell was so friendly with, like, the court that after the trial, he had members of the jury over for an ice cream party. That is... That mistrial sounding real normal. Like, what do you call it? Like a... Yeah, a mistrial. Well, the trial's over, so...

oh yeah yeah the trial's over yeah there's a word for it you're not supposed to mess with them whatever it is but it's over so well let's have a spring yeah yeah is it tampering i don't know it's a conflict of interest for the uh for the jury yeah yeah but but they already decided he's a good guy he's okay we can let him go yeah well it's easy to hate george but this guy plays rock and roll

We don't know if he promised the ice cream party in advance. That's true. We never thought of it that way. You don't know for sure. It was rigged from the start.

Yeah, I feel like it did just end up in a mistrial because they just decided that David Koresh was just so much cooler than George. George was a fucking like he was coming in. So did we. So did we, to be fair. Yeah, I'm on. I'm on. I'm fine with how it's progressing currently. Continue.

So after Rodin was sentenced to prison, being declared mentally insane in 1989, Koresh legally changed his name from Vernon Howell to David Koresh. And now we get into the explanation for this new branch Davidians that have formed. So it's a belief system that stems from the mainstream Seventh-day Adventism, but the specific beliefs and practices diverge significantly.

Prophetic leadership and visions. The Branch Davidians believed they were led by individuals who experienced prophetic visions and direct revelations from God. For example, David Koresh claimed to be the final prophet and the Lamb of God.

Wow.

are not found in mainstream Seventh-day Adventism. Theological interpretations. The Branch Davidians held unique interpretations of the Bible, particularly the prophetic books. Koresh taught that he was entitled to take multiple wives to bear children who would be important to the end times and practice an interpretation not supported or recognized by the Seventh-day Adventist church. That seems to be super common in cults where, hey, God told me I get to fuck a lot and have a lot of kids, so...

I don't know what to tell you. Just picture David Koresh playing the guitar up there with this new Colt. It's like, oh yeah, by the way, I get to sleep with your wives. It's like a fucking pinch harmonic. What if he just completely fucking sucked at guitar as well? I bet it was dog shit ever. There's videos of it. There's videos of it. Of him performing at bars and stuff like that. He's actually pretty good, to be fair.

Son of a bitch. God damn it. So cool.

I can't keep getting away with this. The final thing that was very different was the isolation in community life. So while Seventh-day Adventists are encouraged to engage with and evangelize to the broader community, the Branch Davidians under Koresh became increasingly isolated, forming a tight-knit community that lived apart from society. The isolation was partly due to their belief in the imminent end of the world and needed to prepare without outside interference. Yeah, so they were like just a more cult, cult,

uh centric version of seventh day adventism really now now one thing i will mention is well they also had beliefs that were very different from seventh day adventism of course it's you know it's not like seventh day adventists are like i gotta have i gotta sleep with all your wives right like like it's it's there's differences that seventh day advanced don't believe in like uh continuous revelations and visions and stuff like that um but what is interesting about koresh is like

all the members of the community would have jobs. The kids would attend or like, I'm sorry, older students would attend like, uh, local schools and stuff like that. Like they could leave. Also, one of the things they did to raise money is they would go to gun shows and sell guns a lot. And they would also go perform at like local bars and stuff like that, which it's weird for a hyper religious cult to go to bars and play like rock music of the time. Like,

It's very strange, but that's what they would do a lot for money or fun. They would drink beer, stuff like that. A lot of stuff you wouldn't think they'd do. Koresh was like, no, it's chill. Who cares? Yeah, it's less of a religious cult and more of a sexual one, it seems. Yeah, or a charismatic leader just taking over and giving whatever or offloading whatever beliefs he has for his own. It's kind of like, what's it called? Kind of like Charles Manson a little bit.

um yeah yeah that's that's a pretty good thing like they're obviously their objectives were different um but it's similar and it's a cult of personality more than anything else yeah i will definitely at this point like like you said this is like six branches deep at this point six offshoots so it started it started as a religious sect and it slowly over time uh just became a cult of personality that's my

That's my analysis of the situation anyway. And then we continue on, Charlie, with David Koresh using the Bible in a very interesting way.

Yeah, so David Koresh used the Bible to justify a romantic relationship with a 14-year-old girl, the daughter of one of the church members, and insisted that the girl was given to him by God and in a biblical sense was already his wife. Koresh legally only had one wife named Rachel Jones, and they married when she was 14 with her parents' consent. They had two children, Cyrus and Star, and Rachel rarely argued against her husband and let Koresh do what he wanted without hassle. According to lawyer Jack Zimmerman, who spoke with Koresh during the siege,

She was polite, pleasant, and very quiet. Fresh is said to have fathered 16 children with multiple women. And then in an interview with A Current Affair, he said, I failed school. I quit in ninth grade because I had other things I had to do. I had to learn things. I'm a student, you see. I learned about people. That's what I do. I learn about people. I learn about myself.

Yeah, it's interesting that he said, I failed school, I quit in ninth grade because I had other things I had to do. And then the interviewer says, like what? And he just says, I had to learn some things, I'm a student, you see. You just said you quit school, what do you mean? It seems like he was grasping at straws there, if you have to ask me. I just love that quote. I think that's a very funny quote.

Anyway, so after that, let's talk about life in Mount Carmel under Koresh, because this is kind of where the whole thrust of the story is, really. So, if you would like to take this one, Wendigoon. Absolutely. So, when David Koresh returned to Mount Carmel after George Rodin had been removed, he found it a mess.

In the small frame homes that George had been renting to outsiders to assist in paying overdue property taxes, a large amount of pornography was found and destroyed. They also had lab equipment, which appeared to be used to make meth.

David called the authorities to come and remove the illegal equipment. George was looking at porno and cooking up meth in his little shack. Yeah, I wonder if like, I've wondered that about the meth thing too, if that was George or if like the place was just kind of abandoned and he let whoever want it. Because at the time he left, like he had a few followers, like he was really at his end. So maybe it's funnier to think it was George. But I don't know. Could have just been abandoned too.

Like a place for high school kids to go hang out, get high or whatever. Yeah, make meth.

Yeah, make math, you know, like you do. David and his followers began clearing up and renovating. They tore down the 18 frame houses and built a massive 43,000 square foot facility. And I'm going to show this picture of it on screen right now. It is, it's a pretty like modern looking facility. It's a big building. Really? Like at the time it's like, it's in the middle of a fucking field of like debris, like a war zone. And then it's just like this really nice complex.

The building itself was L-shaped and included a kitchen, chapel, gymnasium, pool, and even a water tower. And although it didn't have indoor plumbing or running water, except for the kitchen sink, most rooms also didn't have electricity. They had to use chamber pots in their bedrooms and kerosene lamps for light and had a few space heaters and fans to help keep them warm or cool in summer and winter. So that's like super interesting that it's like this really nice looking complex and then it's just got no power, running water or anything like that. It's just...

It's just, I guess they spent all their money just building this maybe as a really nice attraction. It's got a nice looking pool as well. Former followers have said that Koresh didn't allow women to wear makeup or jewelry. Jesus. Long glasses had to be worn. He also chose where followers would sleep and what food they could and couldn't eat. Things like dairy processed flour and sugar were not allowed.

David Koresh organized movie nights and occasionally took young women to the local pub for casual gatherings. He and the other members formed a band and performed rock music at various local bars. The Branch Davidians maintained an open-door policy, welcoming locals to attend teachings or socialize at Mount Carmel. Additionally, many members held jobs within the community, actively participating in local activities and events. So it's kind of just like a cool place to come hang out, it sounds like.

yeah that was kind of the idea like you make it appealing to just anyone to come check out uh hence the pool hence the music stuff like that um kind of like a youth center in a way like it looks like it would there were there were a lot of people who later after everything went down said that they would go just like hang out there in the evenings and stuff uh and then just go back home like they would it was just a place to stay

Yeah. In 1992, Child Protective Services started to investigate allegations of child abuse at the compound. It was alleged that children as young as six months old were disciplined with spanking using a wooden spoon. Later, adults admitted to spanking their children, but denied it ever reached a severe level where the children were seriously harmed. After a nine-week investigation of the compound, including interviewing children and adults, the Child Protective Services closed their case, unable to attain enough evidence to support the abuse claims. Joanne...

Vega was a member of the Branch Davidians when she was a child, and she said that she remembers being hit regularly while living at the compound. As a kid, being disciplined was a 24-7 thing. After the CPS investigation, the local community opinion started to turn on the Branch Davidians. And in an interview with the Australian television series A Current Affair, a reporter asked Koresh if the rumors of sleeping with multiple women at the compound and underage girls were true. He denied the accusation. For the rest of the day,

Former followers say he admitted to having intercourse with Michelle Jones, the younger sister of his wife Rachel, when Michelle was 12. Moresh had claimed that he had received instructions from God to do so, and also claimed that all the women at the compound were his and all marriages besides his were annulled.

after this all men other than david koresh were forbidden to engage in sexual activity many followers believed that koresh carried god's seed and believed that not every woman was worthy of koresh's loin he had his so-called house of david which was koresh's own personal harem

Inclusion in the House of David was made out to be a privilege. New members of the House of David would receive a gold-plated Star of David to wear around their necks, and girls were groomed from a young age in preparation for this. I mean, so, okay, terrible person. Obviously. A very sick individual. A monster, even. I thought you'd get more excitement out of a current affair being brought up

again oh i i thought it was great to see them here but it's not exactly like yeah current affair it's one of those things this is an evil guy i'm not gonna really get super excited about the the silly broadcast pump your fist about a current affair but look look at them you like i remember when you go through your current affair stage which for those of you that don't know it's an investigative uh series over in australia kind of like

Kind of cringe, honestly, to Australians because it's mostly just fluff pieces. But sometimes they go out of their way to track down these individuals. Like they flew all the way over to Texas from Australia to investigate David Koresh before the siege and stuff like that and had a one-on-one interview where all this information was divulged.

Which is crazy for them because they really only handle like local nothing burgers. Like when I was watching A Current Affair, like one of the stories was about a snail that one of the employees accused the manager of releasing in the shop. And they're like, this is just unacceptable behavior. Why would you release a snail? And they do a whole story on that kind of shit. Yeah, it was like tracking down. They had a snail expert on to look at the snail slime left behind to make sure that it was the correct snail. So it's either that or the Branch Davidians. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They go from like this local nothing garbage to like interviewing a fucking evil monster.

Most of like 90% of the stuff on a current affairs is like, like I said, fluff pieces or advertisements. Like they did a whole segment on how Vegemite was like changing their, um, changing their recipe or whatever. And it was, it was just like 30 minutes of saying Vegemite tastes so good. You should buy it. They've now come in cans where your name is on it and stuff like that. It was just an advertisement. They do a lot of stuff like that. But I mean, sometimes they go out of the way to fly all the way to America to track down a

just an awful person. So good for the good on them for this one, honestly. So then moving forward from that guns played a significant role in the life at Mount Carmel, including, or according to firearms dealer, Henry McMahon, David Koresh had a keen interest in firearms, enjoying the process of disassembling, cleaning and reassembling them as a tactile pleasure. Koresh,

Koresh primarily acquired guns as investments for resale rather than personal use, and the Branch Davidians became regular attendees at gun shows. This is what you mentioned earlier, Isaiah, where they sold a lot of firearms and related gear, including Russian AK-47s, Israeli Uzis, gas masks, ammo vests, and hunting jackets. Basically, they were just selling this massive fucking arsenal.

And that's seemingly where like they made most of their money. Member Paul Fata held a federal firearms license, which he utilized to attend the gun shows and generate revenue for them. All conducted legally.

Yep, it was kind of like a gun-making little hustle in the compound. Many men at the compound engagement building registering and selling the rifles as a hobby, so that's where they made most of their money, right, Isaiah? That's where they made a lot of it, yeah. It was also just a hobby, all the men enjoyed firearms, it seems, from what we know. They used to have police officers and local people from the area come out to have range days, shoot all their cool imports and stuff like that.

I will say, so the, the, both of those last paragraphs had a couple of important points. The mention, like, uh, obviously David crushes a monster. We all agree with that. But what happened after this is a bunch of members who became displeased with Koresh one. I forget his name, who, uh, said that he tried to take leadership of, uh, the branch of Indians and left. He went out to say that every member of the, um,

of the community was engaging in child abuse in the same way Koresh was. Yeah, that's coming up. Okay, got it. All right. Good point. I'll shut up. Yeah, you didn't have to say that, Jackson. He was educating us. You shut him down.

Basically, while David Koresh is an evil man, it kind of got rolled into this idea, well, everyone in there is evil, which shaped a lot of the ideas of the media going forward in the case. Also, the very important note that everything that was done with the firearms was done legally should be mentioned because that is not what the ATF said.

But we're about to get into that. Yeah, I mean, he is a monster, but it's hard to know to the scale that he, like most of these actions or whatever, extend to the group itself. I will say this, I watched a lot of interviews, when I made my video about it, I watched a lot of interviews with Koresh, I read a lot of testimonial stuff like that. I do think that there was some level of mental illness involved.

uh like i do think to a degree he thought he was telling the truth not entirely obviously i think he used it for a lot of evil actions and stuff but i don't think it was something like jim jones where he's like i can abuse and get whatever i want out of this i think he was insane and i think a lot of people went along with that um but basically the the idea that we put forward eventually when this gets where it gets is every adult in that building needs to be killed um so yeah yeah

Yeah. I guess it's hard to know, though, because there has to be some level of awareness. It is hard. It is hard to know. Yeah. Within the group itself, if David Koresh has a harem called the House of David and stuff like that. According to... Okay, just for an example, though, the 12-year-old bride, that had to be co-signed by her parents and stuff like that. There had to be some level of awareness. According to, like, I think his name was David Thibodeau, if I remember right. Thibodeau said that...

that or like several other members who came out of the branch of it and said that he like yes he would sleep with a lot of the wives but they were never underaged and then other members said they were underage so there's a lot of he said he said she said with all of that

uh regardless the one we know to be true without a doubt is the 14 year old girl he took as his bride that was done legally because her dad signed off on it for some reason right or like signed off on them going together he did he did some loophole to make it legal i remember um

but like it's so that alone qualifies him as a monster right the question is how much did people around know about it because by the time he comes to the branch of Indians and becomes their leader that 14 year old girl's grown up right you know um so it's like oh well maybe then but not now so like a bunch of the members claim ignorance to that stuff others say it happened who knows but basically the only thing I mean to say is that like

Every adult in there probably wasn't evil, even though Koresh was. And I wonder how much of that evil was insanity. I don't know. I still don't know. I guess it's a very hard thing to prove one way or the other at this point. I think, especially with how this whole situation ended, we're not able to talk to a lot of these individuals now. So it is hard to kind of...

you know prove how evil individuals were all we can really say for sure at this point is david koresh is a very yeah he's a monster sick individual yeah they should have shot that guy been done with it easy easy clean all good yeah yeah yeah um all right i can take the next section if you'd like because we're getting into my favorite people in the world the atf yep all right so the atf in mount carmel

Old members of the Branch Davidians who had departed the organization, who were possibly upset and resentful towards Koresh, began to tell media and the police that there were serious child abuse situations happening at Mount Carmel. The allegations were incredibly troubling and disturbing and included the proven claims that David had a 14-year-old wife and extended to claims that multiple group members were abusing children as young as 8 years old.

An example of this is an individual by the name of Mark Brault. Okay, yeah, I keep saying stuff right before Jackson has it typed up. We can just skip over it. If we've already talked about it, you can skip over it to one. All right, yeah, he was a self-proclaimed prophet. We get the vibe, right? He claimed that he claimed crested things like adultery, child abuse, and gun stockpiling. So let's get a brief little conversation as to what the ATF is for those at home who are innocent.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco... Aw, that's so cute. Okay. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, or full name, the BATFE, is a crucial federal law enforcement agency within the United States Department of Justice. Tasked with regulating and enforcing laws pertaining to alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives and arson, the ATF play a pivotal role in combating violent crime and protecting the public. In

In truth, its responsibilities extend beyond mere law enforcement, encompassing regulatory duties to ensure compliance with federal statutes regarding the manufacturing, sale, and possession of firearms and explosives. During the Waco siege in 1993, the Bureau was led by Director Stephen E. Higgins. Higgins served as the director from 1983 until his retirement in 1993.

At the time, the ATF was battling a PR nightmare after a horrific Ruby Ridge incident where the ATF raid resulted in the death of a mother and son. This is likely why the ATF was so eager to try to get a quick and easy victory against what they perceived as a child molesting cult leader. That was my read on the situation anyway. I'm not sure about you.

I'll make the addendum that I personally don't like the ATF and I'm not just saying that as someone who's like oh the government's evil or whatever like the ATF was established in response to like crime waves in the 1930s and it was put together to kind of combat everything that there were being new taxes being placed around so like moonshine for bootleggers stuff like that firearm short barreled stuff all that

So what they do in practice is they're more of a regulatory tax service because all the stuff the ATF regulates, you can get around if you pay the right taxes. They're more so just checking that you have all the boxes ticked in the right place. And they are hyper aggressive on issues like obviously as we're going to talk about, but they continue to this day. If they hear word that you may not be paying like the tax on something or dotting your eyes in the right place, they'll just do a raid.

they'll just kick down a door you know get it going they're very a bunch of people like disagree with the way they do stuff not only that but a lot of the times they will make jurisdiction calls when they're not supposed to like if there's some ruling around like does this fire is this firearm legal or not it won't go through legal channels the atf will just make an internal decision and that's their discretion yeah that's what that's what is usually meant by they're

They're a common proponent of government overreach, right? It's at their discretion what they choose to do. No one can really challenge it because the way the government sees it, it's like, oh, it's the ATF's job to figure that out. So however strict they want to make something, that's as strict as it's going to be. I've had a lot of really annoying experiences with them. I worked at a gun shop for a few years and they're just... Actually, I'll take that back. There was one lady, one ATF agent lady, who was very kind

Other than that, they all hated me for just existing. Like I said, just bad interactions. Not a fan. So anyway...

Sorry, that was unnecessary, but I'm getting mad. I'm getting mad. I'm getting riled up. Yeah. In May of 1992, a UPS driver reported delivering big shipments of weapons to Mount Carmel and a package apparently fell open and he saw grenades and black powder inside.

ATF investigators concluded that the group was amassing an arsenal and making illegal weapons. I also want to clarify, as mentioned earlier by Jackson's writing, we know that the...

The Branch Davidians were selling things like fake grenades at gun shows, right? That's a common thing you'll see at a gun show, too. They drill out the bottom of the grenade so it can't be used, and you use them as a prop or whatever, right? I've got one in my closet that I just use as a joke. You know, I'll walk in a room, throw a grenade on the floor or whatever. Sweet.

What a prank. It's a real hand grenade. So for like two seconds, it's pretty funny for me. But that's just a common thing, right? There is no way, I promise you, that people who actually get hand grenades, there is no way they are ordering them through UPS. You are not getting real explosives delivered through the mail. You get them through other channels. So what really happened...

is there was black powder in a crate used for, you know, gut. I've heard black powder slash gunpowder, depending on who tells the report. If it's black powder, they couldn't even use that for like modern rifle reloading. It'd have to be for like muskets or whatever, right? Yeah.

like so it's it's black powder for like old muskets or whatever and then fake grenades for gun shows so some ups drivers like yeah these guys are building bombs i found it i found the stuff in my truck uh and the atf who should know better and do know better are like oh well this seems like a problem let's make it into one um

Well, what if they were using revolutionary-style weaponry to take on the government? That would be impressive. Oh, they get their blunderbuss out and David Gresham's like, It's like a line of soldiers at the top of the fort. They've got a drummer boy. Reload for 20 minutes now. I do want to clarify before I, like... Because I'm going to get aggressive about the ATF in this. I just feel it coming. I want to clarify that...

Because it sounds like I'm just on their side, and I think the Branch Davidians do nothing wrong. I want to clarify, David Koresh was an evil, evil person. I think he should have been shot. I have no remorse for hurting people like that. They need it. The issue is, David Koresh was an insane cult leader, and the ATF is a tax-funded government agency who's supposed to keep us safe. I'm not like...

mad over a cult leader being a bad guy. I'm mad over the people who are paid to protect us being bad guys. Because they're supposed to be better. When I get more upset about the ATF than Koresh, it's not because I think Koresh deserves any remorse. I would have killed that guy. I'm just saying...

that i think the atf deserves more scrutiny than a cult yeah i'm not like you like you said i think that was a pretty good point how they're paid by us to keep well i'm not i'm not american first of all so i've got theoretically yeah no you pay them okay sweet uh just just for fun no technically i do right because anyway kind of yeah regardless um

They're paid to keep us safe. I'm not fully convinced that storming the compound and killing a whole bunch of children, women, and stuff like the cult members per se was done in our best interest or for our safety. Like Isaiah said, totally fine with David Koresh dying. Absolutely. That is in our best interest realistically and for the public safety 100%. Totally

Totally fine with that. I just think they overextended to kind of an insane degree. That's my personal feelings. Their methods of going about a problem that they, sure, made much bigger than it actually was, but a problem that needed to be addressed, their methods of going about it were far beyond the justification for what happened, right? Because, like, we'll talk about later as we get into the details, but yeah. Let's...

We can start getting there. We've got the catalyst for what it was. They now have this compelling evidence that they might be making bombs and fucking muskets out the wazoo or something. So the ATF's got reasonable suspicion on them. And the ATF suspected they weren't paying their taxes, which was illegal. So they then put

Put them in their crosshair, basically. So Koresh was aware that the ATF was investigating them, offered them to come and go through their paperwork. ATF declines. They then rent out one of the houses on the side of the road of the like near Mount Carmel undercover. Like they pretend to be college students. And one of the agents, Robert Rodriguez, took part in Branch Davidian sermons. And Koresh was aware that Rodriguez was undercover, but decided to let him continue what he was doing for whatever fucking reason.

and he wrote a findings report stating he had seen weapon parts that could indicate they were making illegal weapons. So that was used alongside a noise complaint from a neighbor to obtain a search warrant, and then listed in their report that there was child abuse and the possibility that the Branch Davidians were making drugs, and he

And even though CPS had already investigated those claims and that the lab had been found on the property was taken away, they still claimed that they needed to raid Mount Carmel since David Koresh never came out of the property, which was untrue, as Koresh often left the compound to work, eat, and play with his band. The ATF received that warrant that they were looking for, and they were...

Yeah, they received that warrant that they were legally required to have and then carried it out on February 28th of 1993. So that gives us the groundwork for how they got to the raid.

Yeah. Also, so like, it's important to mention that the initially when they heard the ATF was investigating, the sheriff and Koresh offered the ATF agents to come investigate. And they said, no, we're not interested. And then they plant an undercover guy, which is why Koresh is like, okay, fine. Like you can stay because he already invited them in once, right? Everything they were doing was above board.

And then from there, the ATF just keeps lying. They're like, yeah, he never leaves the property. That's why we have to do it at the property with the women and children. Even though, again, that's a lie. He goes out to play with bands all the time. They could have just waited.

They used the... When David Koresh called the police to come retrieve a meth lab he found on Mount Carmel, they used that as evidence that maybe Koresh is making meth. That report that was mentioned that Rodriguez sent in saying that there were illegal weapons is a horrific report. He literally gets facts wrong. Like, he says they had upper and lower receivers of AK-47s. Yeah. AK-47s don't have upper and lower receivers. It's just a one-piece receiver. Like...

The guy, the ATF agent who's supposed to be investigating doesn't understand guns as he's riding in there. And his reason for saying he thinks they're building illegal weapons is that there were weapon parts. Like he...

yeah it's so frustrating how many how many things were purposely overstepped or like ran through the ringer so that the atf could get a publicity win after they shot a wife and child at ruby ridge it's very frustrating exactly yeah it's also funny to me that they uh did the whole college student house rent out steam like like what is this put their hats on backwards like hey guys we're kind of looking to rent this place out well

What's especially funny, apparently, according to members, all the agents were like 40 years old and they never left the house. So they're like, yo, we're college students, bro, what's good? And then they sat in the house window for like hours on end. They know.

So everyone's like, are those just feds? I mean, what if the inverse happened and they didn't even do the investigation? They just got so into character. They were doing like peg stands out of the lawn and stuff like that. Fucking going wild. Blessing. Fuck you, old man. We're free.

Stressing over their thesis papers and shit like that for a subject they're not even taking. I gotta get to school, man. And then one day, one of them, Rodriguez, comes over, a 40-year-old man, and he's like, yo, I'm from college, can I sit in with you guys? What's up, dudes? What's up, bros? This shit is, like, super rad. I'm looking to just kind of take a peeparooski in here. Yeah, he's wearing, he's fucking, like, Stan from American Dad. He's wearing, like, a 3B suit with an American flag badge. Yeah.

Alright. So, now we're getting to the depressing part. One thing I want to mention is...

They, the ATF in preparation for February 28th was running training grounds on a one for one recreation of the cult compound at a nearby military base. So they ran this drill on the compound over and over, uh, like how they were going to breach the windows, how they were going to get in the day of the raid. They were so prepped for a gunfight that they wrote their blood type on their wrist and neck.

That way if they got shot and were unconscious, they could get hooked up real quick. Keep in mind. Wouldn't that be normal procedure for like raids though? Surely.

not like it's not normal for like atf or like police doing stuff there's like some special ops guys who go to that level like you know something like that will be done uh but it's not normal for atf especially keep in mind this is a warrant right they're not going in to be like all right we're gonna kill everyone in the compound this is we're going to serve koresh uh a warrant for his arrest and we're also going to bring 40 atf agents with rifles to do it like it's it

Okay, David Koresh left his property all the time. He offered to let the ATF come in, do what they want, and they're immediately jumping to the most militaristic action possible. On February the 28th, 1993, Jim Peeler, a cameraman for Waco's KWTX-TV, encountered a U.S. mail carrier named David Jones. Peeler was searching for the Davidian residents, aware that a raid was imminent that day.

Unbeknownst to Peeler, Jones had a connection with Koresh and promptly rushed to inform him of the impending raid. Meanwhile, Robert Rodriguez, an undercover ATF agent, was present at the compound and was approached by David Koresh, who pleaded with him to call off the raid. Rodriguez attempted to relay this information to his superiors, urging them to reconsider as Koresh had been alerted. However, his warnings were disregarded,

It is reported that approximately 150 people, including women and children, were present at Mount Carmel at this time.

So what that looked like, you have a mail, you have a cameraman who just asks a random mailman, like, do you know how to get to the compound? There's going to be a big ATF raid today. And then unbeknownst to the cameraman that or unbeknownst to the reporter, that mailman knows Koresh. So he goes and tells him and then Koresh outs that he knows that Rodriguez is an undercover agent. And Rodriguez says that he played it down, that he was like, no, what do you mean? I don't know what you're talking about.

So that was the moment that it was found out that Koresh knew who Rodriguez was the whole time. Yeah, I also found it strange that the news agency or the news media group or whatever had...

inside information they knew they knew that something was going to go down isn't that convenient isn't that convenient that the ATF who definitely doesn't need a publicity helping told the local camera crews that they were going to be doing a big raid that day hey you're going to want to come see this shit it's going to get wild like yeah come on this

This definitely isn't a publicity stunt, guys. It's definitely not why we're going over the top. By the way, bring cameras. Yeah. That's definitely not why we're endangering the lives of this many kids anyway, by putting them in the middle of what we expect to be a gunfight.

at approximately 9 45 a.m the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms initiated an operation to execute the arrest and search warrants against koresh conflicting reports have emerged regarding the origins of the gunfire initially atf agents claim that the davidians fired the first shots however this narrative has since evolved two main theories have surfaced regarding the initial gunfire some suggest an agent fired after spotting a davidian in a window armed with a gun alternatively it's

It's proposed that an agent shot a dog belonging to the branch of veterans, triggering a rapid exchange of gunfire. So correct. They pull up to the compound. Koresh steps out front with his hands above his head and says there's women and children in here. And then someone shoots.

For years, the ATF and every agent that was there said that the Branch Davidians shot first. And then in recent years, they're like, actually, that was a lie. We shot first. Apparently, the Davidians had two big Huskies that ran out towards an agent. An agent just guns down the dogs, and then everyone opens fire. All the other agents start shooting just because they were skittish and heard a gunshot. So that's what likely triggered it.

David Kores was positioned outside the front door with his hands raised when the gunfire erupted. He sustained injuries to his stomach and hand before retreating inside and closing the door behind him.

Evidence suggests that the ATF fired at the door as multiple bullet holes were found. The disappearance of this front door raises suspicion, especially since the left door remained intact and held as evidence. There's direct testimony from an agent who contradicted his initial report, indicating that he witnessed other agents loading the right door into the back of a U-Haul. The door holds a lot of significance because David Koresh was only outside for like a second and a half when the gunshots were going. So...

If the gunshots started and there were a bunch of bullet holes in the right door, it would point to agents firing at Koresh, an unarmed man, as soon as the gunfire started, right? When the ATF's official story is that David Koresh was just caught in the crossfire. But if there's a bunch of bullet holes right behind him, then they were definitely gunning for him. And then the door just disappears, never shows up. Actually, as a matter of fact, I believe that door was actually found years later in an evidence lockup. I've seen a picture of what's supposedly the door.

And it's full of bullet holes, if it is the door. I'll try to find a picture for you, Jackson. Okay. But it looks like they just got rid of evidence as soon as it was over. Are you sure that's not the left door? Because I know the left door exists currently and is still held as evidence. The images I've seen have claimed it to be the right door. But again, I don't know if that's verified or not. It could be the left door and just people saying like, oh, this is the right door, aren't the ATF evil or whatever.

Why doesn't the government just tell us what happened to the door? Please. What door? There was never a door. What are you talking about? You're crazy. It was only a left door there to begin with. Yeah. The Branch Davidians famously known for their one door policy, Jackson. Come on. It is said in my script even that they had an open door policy. So maybe they weren't even doors. That was a good one. That was pretty good. All right.

On the first day of the confrontation, Wayne Martin, a Branch Davidian, made a desperate call to the police pleading with the agents to cease their gunfire due to the presence of women and children inside the building who were at risk. Another member, Cooper, echoed Martin's sentiment, asserting his right to self-defense as the agents initiated the shooting. After an intense exchange lasting two and a half hours, which only ceased because the agents ran out of ammunition.

Despite the hostility. So basically the ATF agents made their way up to the second floor windows, breach the windows, go inside. Two ATF agents die up there. A couple more die on the ground. There's a, you can actually see on video of like bullet bullets flying out of the wall along where an agent is and he gets shot and falls off the roof. A few more Davidians died inside. There was a big gunfight inside. And then every, all the ATF agents evac'd and like you mentioned, only quit firing because they ran out of bullets. Yeah.

Despite the hostility, the Davidians... There's footage of them carrying away their wounded and stuff like that. Yeah. Very confronting. It was all on TV, right? Yeah, it was. Wild.

Despite the hostility, the Davidians allowed the ATF agents to retrieve their wounded and deceased comrades. However, as the Davidians returned inside after burying their dead in the Mount Carmel Cemetery, an ATF agent fatally shot one of them. The circumstances surrounding this incident remain unconfirmed, with reports suggesting that the Davidian may have initiated gunfire toward the ATF.

On the first day, four agents were killed and 16 were injured. Additionally, six Davidians reportedly lost their lives with many more sustaining injuries. Of course, the exact number is hard to know because of where the story ends up. So yeah, they had... So during this time, the Davidians buried five dead and then an ATF agent shoots one of them. All the Davidians say that guy just was holding a shovel. ATF agent says it was a gun. You know, it's still argued. Obviously, the official report is still that he had a gun, but...

The FBI hostage rescue team assumed control of the situation following the initial ATF confrontation. David Koresh took to calling local news stations, granting interviews to... What is that word? Elucidate? Elucidate. It just means educate. That's a good word. That is a good word. All right. Granting interviews to elucidate the circumstances. He recounted how the ATF arrived at the property in heavily armed vehicles, shouting commands that he couldn't discern.

Koresh emphasized that while his group possessed weapons, they had no intention of using them, but rather sought peaceful resolution.

He asserted that the ATF's failure to comprehend their beliefs led to violent encounter. Koresh adamantly claimed that the ATF initiated the gunfire, prompting him to plead for dialogue and secession of violence. Recordings of these interviews captured Koresh's cries of pain and insistence on his right to self-defense. Yeah, so he makes a bunch of videos to the news basically explaining what happened.

In response to Koresh's media outreach, the ATF severed phone lines and established a single communication channel between negotiators and Koresh. Over the ensuing hours, Koresh engaged in extensive discussions with FBI negotiators delving into topics ranging from his family to religious beliefs and beyond.

The ATF anticipated that the Branch Davidians would either resort to mass hang-up or exit Mount Carmel voluntarily. However, with their apocalyptic beliefs centered around the second coming of Christ, the Davidians had stocked

stocked ample supplies to endure a prolonged standoff yeah they were doomsday cold of course they were yeah and also like their whole thing is that they were afraid of the armies of Babylon like Koresh had taught for years that one day the evil armies of the world will come to attack them and they have to be ready so guess what happens when 40 federal agents roll up and start shooting at them everyone's like wow Koresh was right

That's the most annoying thing about this situation is like you inadvertently kind of proved him right. At least tweets followers and stuff like that. Yeah. Like, holy shit. There were FBI investigators after this was over that's like, maybe we are the armies of Babylon. Maybe that's what happened. And in an attempt to negotiate surrender, David Koresh offered to turn himself in if the ATF broadcasted a one-hour tape sermon online.

of his on the radio. Despite complying with this request, Paresh then informed FBI that he had received divine guidance indicating that he was not yet meant to surrender. This move, by the way, would just would be the ATF's justification for a lot of what happened. They'd say, oh, well, he lied to us once, right?

Just fucking laughing at him. Yeah.

Yeah, I've seen that video. Everyone's like, ha ha, the stupid little cult people. Yeah, but he does believe in it. What a fucking loser. Yeah, witch crash. Very true. Very accurate. The children in the building. Yeah, yeah. It was very clear that they had dehumanized every single individual in the building at this point.

Yeah, they kept saying like, oh, because of Jonestown, they kept being like, oh, everyone's gonna do it. They're all gonna drink the Kool-Aid any second now. Or they're all gonna go out into blaze of glory. There's no middle ground to them. I do want to say, though, because they accepted the offer to show his one-hour tape sermon on the radio, I do think there was at least some effort from the FBI.

I think they had realized it at this point that they had already botched this up significantly. Four agents were dead and there was a lot of life lost. And they went into this thinking this was going to be an easy PR win, obviously, because they had sent the word to the media and stuff like that. Clearly, it's now turned into a multi-day siege. So they're probably regretting their decisions at this point. So I do think they were desperate to end this without further loss of life. But

David Koresh, I think, made the fatal mistake of not giving himself up and instead reneging on their deal that they made. I think that was kind of a pivotal mistake in all of this because I kind of get it from the FBI's point. They're like, well, clearly this guy's not playing fair with us anymore. But they had put themselves in this situation, of course, as well. So it's hard to...

It's a question of how insane he is, right? Because if he's lucid of this, then yeah, absolutely. Just evil, made a deal, didn't want to let his people go. Others argue that maybe he had some episode in the midst of this and thought God was speaking to him again. I tend to go more so that he just didn't want to give up, didn't want to walk out. But yeah, that decision on both sides would lead to what comes shortly. As the standoff persisted at the compound...

The FBI employed tactics such as cutting off power to the facility and engaging in confrontational behaviors towards Branch Davidians observing from windows. During a call with an FBI negotiator, Branch Davidian Steve Schneider expressed bewilderment, questioning who was in control of the individuals outside the compound. He described them engaging in lewd gestures, which made the Branch Davidians wary of surrendering to the FBI.

Despite the tense situation, David Koresh expressed willingness to allow anyone who wished to leave the compound to do so. Several mothers and children took this opportunity to depart, but upon exiting, the women were promptly arrested and the children were separated for interrogation.

So the lewd gestures, apparently a bunch of ATF agents were like getting naked and like bending over in front of the windows. What? Okay. I didn't read that. The agents were like pulling down their pants and spreading their butt cheeks to the windows and stuff like that. What the fuck? They were like hip thrusting in the air. Someone got in the tank at one point and started driving over the graves they had just made of the five dead.

I did read that. Yeah. So you've got this cult of comparatively conservative...

Christian's not the word for it, but they think they're Christian. They're sitting in the windows and then they see a bunch of federal agents mooning them and driving over graves and stuff like that. And then a few of the women go out and they watch from the window as the moms are tackled and arrested and the kids taken away. And it's like, yeah, I'll surrender to those guys. What could possibly go wrong? Yeah. Yeah. There's clearly not much good faith going on from the FBI side on the outside, like antagonizing them.

Like, if you're that much of a believer and you look out and you believe that you're seeing the forces of the devil or forces of Satan and stuff, and then they bend over and spread their butt cheeks at you, yeah, I kind of get it. I kind of get why you'd be apprehensive about going out there. One of the...

one of the most annoying things is there's a call between that call between Schneider and the FBI negotiator. He's on the phone and he's like, there's guys out here, you know, showing their rear ends to the women and stuff like that. And the FBI's response or the negotiator's response is he's like, Oh,

well you know you know boys you know boys will be boys boys will be boys who doesn't goat see a window during a very intense shootout occasionally you know what I'm saying gentlemen we've all been there who among us is innocent it was a bonding exercise god damn it

We pop open the Budweiser and start looking at butt. That's what I'm saying. That's all I'm getting at. It's sounding more and more like these were actual college students. They weren't undercover. It's just a force of college students. So on the ninth day of the standoff, Dave,

David sought to provide the public with insight into the beliefs and values of the Branch Davidians. The FBI facilitated this by sending a video camera into Mount Carmel. In the recorded footage, David vehemently criticizes the ATF's actions, denouncing their intrusion into their home as un-American. He emphasizes his commitment to defending his family, showcasing the presence of young children in the room. Despite David's efforts to share these videos with the public, the FBI opted not to release them, fearing as they would generate sympathy and support for the Branch Davidians.

I've seen the whole tape. It's David's. I think I put the whole tape in my video, but it's David setting up there with a bunch of kids. And he's like, you know, you come, you come at me. I'll meet you at the door any day, which is like, it's the kind of speak a bunch of like, you know, quote unquote, red blooded Americans would get behind. So the ATF saw that and were like, we're not going to post that. It's a call to arms, basically. Pretty much. As the siege dragged on, both sides felt increasingly trapped with no sign of progress after a week and a half.

While negotiators attempted to engage David Koresh and other Branch Davidian members in dialogue, the HRT hostage rescue team applied pressure to expedite the situation. The HRT resorted to aggressive tactics, including running takes over Branch Davidian vehicles, which resulted in the crushing of bodies previously slain. Additionally, they illuminated the building with spotlights throughout the night and blasted disturbing noises, such as recordings of rabbits being murdered over loudspeakers.

Yeah, so... Fucking lunatics. They think this cult is like an insane group of people who are going to go crazy any minute, and their response is to point spotlights in their windows and play dolphin noises all night. Run over the fucking corpses of their friends and fellow cult members in their tanks and stuff like that. This will calm it down. Yeah. This is the hostage rescue team, by the way. Yes. Also, I want to... For those...

Don't worry, we'll get you out of there. We're working on it, everybody. Check this out. I'm putting a firecracker up this corpse's butt.

And like the thing about rabbits being murdered is no joke. The audio is like horses name and dolphin noises and car crash sounds. Yeah, like at maximum volume. It's insane. Like these are the same guys who are flashing women. Who wrote the textbook on this fucking hostage like strategy? I also want to mention this is by the book. I'll tell you right now. If I'm trying to rescue hostages, I got to get them off their guards. So I got to surprise them with fucking jump scares and horse noises.

The HRT team that was here was the same team that was at Ruby Ridge, by the way. Oh, fantastic. The same shooter. His name was Lon Horiuchi, who shot Vicky Weaver, the woman at Ruby Ridge. Then the standoff. He was posted up at a building down the road with a sniper rifle. And many say that he is the one who fired at that guy who was walking back in with the shovel on the funeral.

Yeah, no, actually, sorry, that was an ATF one later in the story. He's accused of shooting people at the at the end of everything that goes down. So they literally put the same people on the same guns as they did back at Ruby Ridge. They're like, yep, we'll just copy paste. What's the worst that could happen? And then you get stuff like this. Oh, play animal noises. That'll calm them down.

Again, they came here intending to smooth over their reputational damage they suffered during the Ruby Ridge incident. They look like fucking maniacs. Yeah, yeah. Guys, news cameras, this will fix everything. Quickly, spread your ass cheeks. It was around this point that they made the news crew stand like three miles back further up the road so they could just catch brief glimpses of this. Yeah, they're like...

This isn't going the way we planned. Get everyone out of here. News cameras, come here. We're going to fix our reputation. All right. If you could stand three miles that way and listen to the goat noises all night, that'd be great.

News guys come here. We're repairing the damage and then they get naked and start like mooting the cameras and stuff like that. Do you see what I mean that I get so upset with the ATF? Like how did it come to this? This is why I'm mad. Okay. They're so out of touch. Like I don't understand how much more out of touch you could be.

it gets worse you're about to find out yeah um yeah yeah you did write this yeah despite objection the theoretical you in the audience you are going to find out um despite objections from negotiators who warned against escalating tensions these tactics were widely reported in the media it appeared that the fbi strategy aimed to push the branch of idiots to their breaking point perhaps hoping to provoke a response that would justify a forceful intervention

In addition to cutting off power, water lines to Mount Caramel were also severed. Compounding the situation, two of the compound's water tanks were damaged during the initial gunfire, leaving the entire complex reliant on a single tank for survival. Yeah, starve him out, make him desperate, that'll end well. That was a strategy. Dumb strategy, but continue.

Oh, I will add, the night that they cut power, like, totally to the compound, the reason they did is because to combat the noises, David Koresh set up a bunch of loudspeakers and started playing his guitar out of the top window. He was playing on a rock show? Yeah, to combat the shit.

So imagine this. The ATF has like spotlights on them playing like loud animal noises. And then you hear like he was standing in the top window playing for all the smoke on the water. Yeah. Yeah.

I've seen the recording. He was playing some old rock song. I forget which one it was. I think it was a Vietnam song, like all around the watchtower or something. If it's something like that. Yeah. Like makes sense. Which could you imagine like David Kresge, evil, evil person. But objectively that one moment is neat. Yeah. What if he comes out and starts shredding and it brings everyone together? Like the ATF agents lay down their weapons. It's like that Pepsi commercial. Yeah. Yeah.

The power of rock unites us. Um, but they cut the power when he started doing that. Um,

So anyway, the area surrounding the compound had transformed into something resembling a tourist attraction with the FBI set up drawing crowds, merchandise stalls, food vendors, and curious members of the public gathered, snapping photos and staging protests. I've seen pictures from that event. They had dogs wearing ATF uniforms. People were wearing shirts that's like not like kids were wearing T-shirts that said, like, please don't shoot me and stuff like that. They were selling hot dogs. It was so weird.

That is so America, by the way. It is. Military raid going on and they set up a little market at the front. Yep. They're like, there's people getting photos in front of news crews. There are a bunch of people dressed up as ATF agents walking around like, see any dogs? I'm going to shoot them. If you got a dog, I'm going to shoot it. Yeah. Yeah.

merchandise stalls food vendors and curious members of the public gathered snapping photos and staging protests however amidst this spectacle the fbi had effectively limited media access pushing reporters back so they could see the compound but not hear the ongoing events despite the media blackout public opinion on the situation was plentiful with many expressing their views on how it should be resolved

US Attorney Janet Reno urgently briefed President Bill Clinton on the escalating crisis at Waco, stressing the need for swift resolution and dismissing his suggestion to wait it out.

It's also to be mentioned, the narrative that Reno pushed forward to Bill Clinton is that as the siege was going on, children were actively being, like, molested and abused inside of the con- like-

At gunpoint, they were doing that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, we got to go in there and kill everyone. They're molesting children. Kill the children too, though. Like, what the fuck? Yeah. Yeah. It's absurdist. But anyway, yeah, I could talk about it forever. But to continue, on April 14th, David Koresh penned a letter claiming to have received his final communication from God. He indicated that he was diligently working on interpreting the seven seals and expressed opposition

and expressed optimism that the situation could be peacefully resolved without any loss of life. However, the FBI asserted during testimony that negotiations had reached a stalemate, viewing Koresh's letter and writings as a mere delaying tactic. Despite their awareness that Koresh had completed the interpretation of the first seal and even provided typewriter ribbons to corroborate this, they ultimately perceived his actions to be based around the stalling of the siege. So,

He's like, before I go to jail, I want to write my last statement basically about the Bible and the FBI, which to their credit, he did lie once. He did say, if you put this out, I'll give up. But he started sending out pieces of the manuscript saying, when this manuscript's done, I'll come out. But the FBI said they don't believe him, which led to the events that followed.

With a sense of urgency to conclude the now 51-day standoff, on April the 19th at 5.59 a.m., the FBI contacted the Davidians to notify them that an imminent tear gas assault issuing a final warning. By 6.02, two FBI tanks forcefully rammed into the compound, deploying gas through spray nozzles into the building.

At 6.04am, the Davidians retaliated by opening fire, prompting women and children to seek refuge in a bunker within the structure, as the gas mask provided did not fit the children. That seems like such a big blunder that they didn't make child-sized gas masks. End of the world kind of people.

Yeah, probably. I think they just bought surplus stuff. And, you know, military surplus doesn't have child size. But yeah, I hate this part of it. Okay. Amidst the chaos, a white flag was raised upstairs with the banner requesting the repair of phone lines.

In response, the FBI broadcasted an announcement urging the Davidians to surrender by exiting the compound. However, it later emerged that their attempt to contact the FBI was prompted by the destruction of the bunker's entrance by the tank.

Yeah, so they literally couldn't leave. They couldn't leave. All of the women and children went into a bunker to escape the tear gas, and then a tank broke the entrance, so no one could get out. That's the reason that the men wouldn't leave the building in the midst of what happened, because they were trying to get the women out. As a matter of fact, most of the bodies that were recovered were recovered around the entrance to that door, as the men were trying to find a way to open it. It's just horrifying. Gosh, man.

Around midday, Mount Carmel was engulfed in flames. Despite efforts by firefighters to reach the building, they were halted at the scene due to concerns of potential gunfire. The fire spread rapidly, consuming the structure entirely. In the aftermath, bodies recovered were largely unrecognizable, with indications suggesting that many men had attempted to save women and children sheltered in the bunkle during their final moments.

women and children appeared to have succumbed to a combination of suffocation and poisoning from tear gas exposure, some individuals bore gunshot wounds, suggesting possible acts of mercy killing.

Several of the... So the gas that was being burned in the air can cause cyanide-like effects. A bunch of the kids were found dead in states of convulsion and muscle tearing, as if they were having violent seizing and very, very painful death. Yeah. And remember, the ATF and FBI were there to save the children. To save the kids. Yeah. Yes. Save the kids. Yes.

resulted in every one of them dying. Right before this happened, I think eight people left the building, but other than that, everyone who was inside, well, other than the nine, but all the kids who were inside that bunker didn't make it. Gosh, it's evil. Also, Koresh, well, we're going to get to that, sorry. Only nine Branch Davidians managed to escape the fire, emerging as the final survivors of the siege. Among them, they carried fragments of David Koresh's unfinished transcript, a project he had been diligently working on.

Kresh himself was discovered with a bullet wound, possibly inflicted by his assistant Steve Schneider, who subsequently took his own life afterwards.

How do you think the ATF and the FBI followed up with this awful situation where so many children, women died at their hands? How do you think they took this moment? So if you watch the Netflix series Waco, it ends with the ATF crying, like, what have I done? Oh, the humanity type thing. This is how they actually responded. A total of 82 individuals perished in the blaze, including 23 children.

Following the devastation, as the Davidians' flag fell to the ground, the ATF raised their own flag on the flagpole, a symbolic gesture of military triumph.

Aware of the global scrutiny, this act signified the conclusion of the battle, declaring victory for the authorities. Additionally, ATF agents posed triumphantly amidst the debris of the burned building, even as the bodies of the deceased still lay amidst the ruins. Actually infuriating. There's pictures of the flagpole with, like, the US flag and the ATF, you know, flag and stuff like that hoisted up on it with people, like...

among the wreckage and stuff like that. Just sickening. The snipers took pictures with their rifles over their backs in front of corpses. Like, as if this is some mighty military raid and not 23 kids that just died in a fire. Gosh, it makes me sick. Your own citizens, by the way. Your own citizens. This is the part that makes me insane. Right? Okay, so there's several points in history where we, like, governments have screwed up and

hopefully they're later like, yeah, that was a bad point in history, right? Like, for example, let's take something like Vietnam, right? A lot of government officials now recognize a lot of what we did in Vietnam was bad, right? Whatever. To this day,

To this day, the official report is that everything that went down at Waco was the heroic ATF slaughtering child molesters. And it's a shame some of them had to die, but really we saved the day at the end of it. One of the guys who posed in a picture there last year was up for being elected as head of the ATF. He was put forward by, I believe, the Biden administration to be the head of the ATF.

They still view all the agents who were there as heroes in the press, in the news. They said that everything they did was justified. It's debated if the branch Davidians ever even fired back at ATF agents because the ATF, as soon as the fire, there was no evidence of gunshots being fired.

There is some aerial footage that indicates maybe the ATF fired inside of the building. As soon as fire trucks showed up, they were like, no, no, they've got guns. You can't go in there. So they just let the building burn. Not only that, but like Lon Horiyoshi, the sniper I mentioned earlier, he was accused of firing at the people who were running out of the building trying to get away. And then immediately after Waco, he rebarreled his rifle so that no forensics could be performed.

It is so frustrating how they all got away with it, and to this day, they're viewed as heroes. Every year, the ATF post...

a remembrance post on the anniversary of Waco in dedication to the four brave agents who gave their lives fighting this evil cult. And every year they get clowned in the comments, rightfully so. But it infuriates me that it's still seen as a triumph, as a military conquest when it was just people dying. It was a lot of people dying. That is actually fucking insane. I didn't know that they still like celebrated it. I thought they were embarrassed by it as well because of how tragic it was and how horribly it was handled. I didn't know like even today.

That it was viewed positively. They should be embarrassed of it, right? It was clearly. Yeah, that'd be one of the most shameful things. Yeah, it's a complete failure by every measurable metric. You killed 23 children of your own country, your own fellow citizens in a failed attempt to save them. Like in the most excruciating way possible, by the way, probably like in a fire wreckage.

of your own you burned women and children alive and it's still a good thing it's still looked back on as yeah we made the right call there good job boys and you immediately celebrate by like raising your own flag and stuff like that instead of taking like an honest moment of introspection to realize what you had done there's there's no level of i hate we had to do this i hate that it came down to this it's it's just like good job we did government fuck yeah and like that kind of mood come on let's just start fist bumping let's go boys

And I will do it again too. And every like media try whenever, like for example, like when you hear stuff talked about Ted Kaczynski, cause Janet Reno was a part of that too. Every time that, uh, they mentioned like Waco or whatever in media, they always have the FBI or ATF be like, yeah, that was a real tragic moment. I hate that had to happen. No, that's not how they talk about it at all. They still, it's still seen as like one of our wins. We did a good one there. Ruby Ridge, not so much, but we got them this time. This is our, our win. It's, ah,

And the final insult to this whole thing, the FBI later released public statements that they believe the Davidians that set the fires themselves as a mass unenlivening. So it wasn't enough to have put them in this situation. It wasn't enough to crash tanks through their building and spray gas, flammable gas into the building and stuff like that. They had to come out later and say, well, actually the Davidians did it themselves. Ridiculous.

Yeah. Also for years, four years, several FBI agents, ATF agents would make statements in court in front of juries and say that

that they saw the individuals within the compound igniting the fire themselves. They saw them doing it. And that actually the gas they deployed inside the building isn't flammable when it turns out it is flammable. They lied on the stand for a decade and then they're like, actually, we made that up. We don't know how the fire started. But potentially pumping a building full of tear gas and then running a tank through it might cause something to spark. Oh, yes. Yeah. Oh, that...

That's an unproven science that we can't possibly hope to understand. Yeah, those crazy cults are supposed to have done it themselves. Isn't it like kind of a conflict of interest that the government is investigating itself in the first situation? Like, how do you know that they're being completely honest? Yes, my gosh, thank you. I feel insane. People are like, oh, well, they investigated it, the ATF. Like, thank you. That clears up everything for me. Also... People fucking spreading their ass cheeks at children through the windows are the ones investigating if they didn't...

Right. Come on. Another important thing to note is they they Janet Reno and everyone claimed for years that on the day of the fire, they never used any kind of incendiary or explosive device at all. And then in the wreckage, they found grenade launcher shells and stuff like that, or like they found ammo casings and stuff. And the ATF was like, huh?

That's weird. Anyway, like they just they just talk over it. Crazy cultists must have been eating grenades or something in there. Weirdos. Also to to drive the nail home. I found the ATF tweet from the anniversary of Waco where they said they post four

pictures of the four dead agents and say, on this day 26 years ago, four ATF agents were killed in the line of duty in a mission outside of Waco, Texas. We honor all the special agents present that day who persisted in the face of danger. Their bravery and brotherhood continues to unite our organization.

I'm not happy that the ATF agent... Well, I'm not happy that they died or anything crazy. I'm not happy they died either. I'm not either, to be clear. But as organizational decision-making, the idea that everything that happened here is still an honorable line of duty instead of mistakes, something we should learn some, something we should work our way back from...

Gosh, it eats me up. Are you mad too now, Jackson? Are you successfully upset? Okay. Yeah, I'm furious. That's such a ridiculous outcome to a situation that they had themselves created. And like, again, to clarify, David Koresh is evil. This is his fault. But the solution to saving 23 kids is not to kill them. Like, call me crazy. I feel crazy. Like, just at a utilitarian angle, what did we actually accomplish here?

Well, the kids can't get molested anymore. They put an end to the child abuse by taking away the children.

It's just such a failure. It's not something that should be celebrated or remembered fondly by the ATF or anything of that caliber. It is an enormous government failure and it should be remembered as such. Because even if they went in with good intentions or if they acted with good intentions, at the end of the day, the outcome is this terrible, terrible loss of life from both sides. Nothing was gained. Nothing was gained. It was an enormous waste of...

of life and it's just terrible unfortunately I've gotta depart before the final conclusion so I'll just get my hot take out there it's a bit brave

I think it was bad. I think what happened is a bad thing. I'll say it. I'll say it. I'm pretty sure you started the episode by saying that, by the way. So two and a half hours, nothing's changed. My mind hasn't been changed. It's still bad. Now he thinks it is extra bad. Really bad, even. Perhaps badly, one might say. No.

Charlie has to depart. He's got a thing on now. So sadly, we didn't get to squeeze the entire episode in that time frame. So he's going to leave now. Thanks for joining us, though, Charlie. We'll see you next time. Thanks. Bye-bye. Talk to you later, man. Bye.

Alright, so my friend Jackson, would you like to close us out with the ending here? Yep, so we'll end the episode talking about the fire itself, the investigation into the fire in the aftermath. So several surviving Branch Davidians maintain their innocence, denying any involvement in starting the fire. However, a panel of arson investigators contradicts this assertion.

concluding that the Davidians ignited fires simultaneously at three different locations within the compound itself. Listening devices installed in the compound on April 19th captured members discussing phrases such as "spread the fuel" and "light it when the tanks get here", which was presented as evidence of their intent to start a fire. Survivors argued that these conversations likely pertained to the preparation of Molotov cocktails.

During subsequent trials, juries struggled to discern the words captured by the audio recordings due to their muffled quality. So yeah, the jury couldn't determine whether or not those phrases were actually seen. I've heard the audio recordings and you can hear the word, I think I could hear like tank and stuff, but it's very muffled. But the ATF presents it as, here is them saying spread the fuel and light it when the tank gets here. So like the jury was like, I guess, but...

It's hard to know. And also, I could see them making Molotov cocktails. Again, none of this would happen had the building not been full with CS gas and tanks raided to it. Yeah, exactly. The strategy to ram the tanks into the building in the first place is such an over...

I feel like it's just such a massive leap in aggression, you know, like to force tanks in. And at the end of the day, what would it have...

like waiting a few more weeks or something like that or employing some other tactic than just immediately forcing their hands anything besides killing kids right yeah and like like that koresh was sending out pieces of the manuscript i think he had like seven pages left of a 90 page thing or whatever when they brought it out to investigators uh koresh right before he had asked for two more weeks three days before right so i think

You know, yes, he's lied to you before, sure. But maybe give it 10 more days before you kill 23 kids. Just a thought. Yeah, or even if it's not directly them killing the kids. Let's say that the Davidians did start the fire. Like 10 more days before forcing their hand or putting them in a position where they need to make that massive jump. Again, I just feel like there's so many different, probably better ways to have ended this story.

even given the circumstances. The tear gas deployed by the FBI contained CS gas, which is flammable. Initially, the FBI vehemently denied the use of pyrotechnic grenades on that day. However, in 1999, the FBI reversed its stance and acknowledged the possibility that pyrotechnic devices were employed. So they were like, psych, we actually did. The possibility. Yeah, the possibility. How?

What a wild word. How do you not know what equipment you're using? You do. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe there was some power. I don't know. It's like fucking Christ. Even if that is true that you didn't know, what a massive self-report on your governmental qualities. Yeah.

There's video footage, so there was a plane flying above that day getting video footage, and it had a thermal camera, and you can see heat flashes by the ATF's tanks, implying the ATF agents were firing shots. Many think that the ATF were shooting people trying to leave the building, which, like, my word, dude. Yeah, shooting retreating individuals, if that's true. Yeah, shooting just people trying to get out of the fire. I mean...

That's a war crime. Yes, it is. And not to mention, like I said, the same guy who shot Vicky Weaver, um,

had his rifle rebarreled right afterwards so no one could tell what happened. Yeah, there's just so many sketchy things about this whole ending part. Additionally, 40mm grenade casings were discovered amidst the wreckage, further complicating the investigation. Investigations done by John Danfort, lawyer and former Republican, in 2000 found that the US government did not cause the fire, nor did it shoot at the compound.

So, I mean, he's a government...

Investigations done by government agents as government agents did nothing wrong. Yeah. That's how that reads. Even with these findings, some people are skeptical, including us, and view the siege as a government abuse of authority, which I think that's pretty obvious. It is. Regardless. People try to make Waco a political thing all the time. They're like, oh, they had guns, just right-wing people like them or whatever. I don't know how anyone from any part of the political spectrum could look at this and be like, well done. Well done, boys. Like,

Good job. We did it. We did it, Patrick. We saved the city. I think I summed it up pretty succinctly before. Even if they didn't have good intentions, the outcome itself is just so embarrassing. Yeah. So horrible. Yeah. Questions swirled around the government's handling of the tragedy that happened at Mount Carmel. There were over 80 casualties from the raid, including women and children. So 80 people died for this fucking shit. Yeah.

There was blame on both sides for the events that unfolded. I think that's fair to say. Well, at least there's blame on David Koresh's side and the government body's side. And after there were multiple investigations conducted in order to try and uncover details about the raid, standoff, and final assault on the compound by law enforcement, U.S. General Attorney Reno, who is a recurring figure, later expressed regret for authorizing the raid.

Well, at least she's expressing regret, I guess. So, the way she phrases it every time I've seen it, she's like, we should have done something different. You don't say. Yeah, yeah. It's never an admittance of, like, we messed up. It's always like, we could have employed better tactics to make it different. And, like, I've heard some people say after she left office that she expressed it, but I haven't... I don't know, man. Like, she...

reno did that stuff a couple times because like immediately after this was over her and clinton were like heading forward the assault weapons ban and using a and using waco as an example to push their political agenda like you can't capitalize off of something for years afterwards and then be remorseful after you've got your way from it like yeah yeah that's fair

Maybe later expressed regret. Maybe she wanted more bombs. Maybe she wanted like a tactical airstrike on the compound. Maybe they didn't blow it up enough. Nine survivors? We can do better next time. She's like, it took 50 days for it to happen. I wanted it done in the first week.

Byron Sage, the lead FBI negotiator during the siege, just said, the biggest problem we had was internal. You don't say. Really? Yeah, we brought it on ourselves. We created a crisis within a crisis. Something funny, a funny note I heard is a cult psychologist, he went on to do interviews for documentaries about Waco and stuff. He was called to...

the the site to do psychology about the uh the people inside like why are they crazy what do they need to do and he said shortly after arriving i realized the real cult i should be analyzing was the hrt yeah he said that immediately he was like these guys are way too gung-ho they want something to go down quick so the cult psychologist began trying to talk down the fbi

Oh, yeah. I could absolutely see that. It definitely seems like... It seems like a team of people who are very cultish in nature, especially in that... And...

And you know what I mean, man? Like, these are people that are supposed to have our best interest at heart. You know, they're supposed to make things go better. They're supposed to save those kids, right? And their solution's like, we gotta make this into a publicity stunt. We gotta, you know, make it look good for the cameras and, like, something bombastic. And it's so depressing. It's so depressing.

So, obviously there was significant public outcry and demand for accountability from people, still to this day. This led to a series of congressional hearings aimed at scrutinizing the actions and decisions of the ATF and the FBI during the siege. The hearings revealed a series of tactical mistakes, miscommunications, and underestimations of the Branch Davidians' resolve. Critics argued that the agencies had acted too aggressively and had failed to exhaust all options for a peaceful resolution.

However, the official reports largely defended the actions of the federal agencies, citing the illegal weapons and the potential for mass unaliving within the compound as justification for their approach. Which is, again, we're fearful that they might all unalive themselves, so let's beat them to the punch and kill them instead. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

No criminal charges were brought against the federal agents involved and indeed probably no internal punishments at all. Investigation, discipline. Again, you said there were figures from the Ruby Ridge incident active at Waco itself. The HRT team, they were there. They clearly did not care about punishing their own individuals and that's probably what led to them mooning and doing such

let's say, unprofessional actions during this raid. Like, just a crazy situation. And I totally understand how people, how you, as an American citizen, are able to be so mad about this situation. Because if this happened in Australia from an Australian governmental body, I would be beyond furious. It would be a ridiculous use of taxpayer money. And you know what, man? Like, if...

If the government now was like, we're sorry, you know, that was a mistake. It was a clear bad. But it's the fact that it's still to this day, like so ingrained of victory. It's so frustrating to be like, OK, I get it. OK, I see where you're at. That's that's how you want to be treated. That is how I think of you now. That's what you're like. It just man, it's gosh, it makes me upset. You're familiar with the Oklahoma City bombing, right?

Briefly, not massively. Basically, Timothy McVeigh blew up the ATF headquarters in Oklahoma City. And it was in 1995, it was two years after this, or like a year and a half after this, and he cited Waco and Ruby Ridge as being his reasons. Timothy McVeigh used to sit outside of court hearings for like Lon Horiyuchi, and he was selling bumper stickers with the guy's home address on it.

So a lot of hatred across the country for the ATF. There was a lot of hatred. And with the OKC bombing, this event was used in people's minds to justify even more evil and violence. And, you know, off-lap, it's just, gosh, it just keeps creating problems, both on trust of government, both on more evil actions. Man. The annoying part of it is, like, these are taxpayer-funded organizations, agencies, they

They should be working in the interest of your citizens. The most frustrating part for me is that they are entirely creating their own problems here. Like this is all actions that they have done by themselves. And like you said, they don't learn from it. They don't open up to the American people and say, yeah, this was a mistake. We fucked up. This was bad. We're taking measures.

to be an agency that you can be proud of, or we're trying to become an agency now that you can be happy to, for your taxpayer money to be sent towards, you know, there's not, there's none of that. It's just like, think about it this way. They want, they want to be scary. I think.

They want it. You're right. You're right. They want to have that power. They want to be like, we can do what we want and you're just going to have to deal with it. Right. We can be the big guys on the block. We don't we don't like it when we're not treated like the military in an invading country. Right. So think about it this way.

There's a group in Texas that they've been investigated by CPS. All reports have turned out they can't find any evidence of child abuse, right? Again, David Koresh is a monster, but legally, they can't get anything on him. So the ATF hears that they have grenades, even though the ATF knows better, knows those aren't actual grenades. But the ATF hears this, uses this as justification in their head for a PR campaign. So they decide to start staking out the property.

and getting a federal warrant to go just arrest a guy they go in making like guns blazing as loud as they can cause this big scene and then they begin to stress out over how quickly they need the scene to end every step of the way they set up a problem and then they handled it poorly over and over it just and it's still it's still a victory it's still the atf flag ran up on the flagpole

It sounds like they could have, from the reports that I had read, it sounds like they could have very easily arrested him in an isolated way when he was outside of the compound. This guy went to karaoke bars twice a week. And the federal agents across the street who have been watching him for half a year, or like four months, however long it was, they know that. So how about rather than investing the supposed child molester in a doomsday cult, as you call it, with all the children, maybe wait for him to be alone, just

Just arrest the guy, deal with it like normal people, or maybe take him and the sheriff up on their offer to investigate the property directly. Sure, you may not believe the child stuff, but you can see the gun operation, see that it's legitimate, right? Like maybe do anything other than make a problem for yourself that you get to solve and seem like the superhero. And even when you don't, and even when you kill a lot of people, you'll just lie about the events and say that you were the good guys. Yeah, man.

So, so annoying. I totally, the hate is justified. Yeah. I didn't mean to get heated. That's completely fine. And if there's people in the comments or other people out there that would disagree with, with, with this assessment, are there like ATF defenders out there that you've seen?

I've seen them a lot. I've seen guys who are very pro-military, very pro-government. They're like, well, they're keeping us safe. And yes, this is David Koresh's fault. And I want to clarify, David Koresh is the villain here. He's the evil guy. But I am not disheartened by the evil of a cult leader. I'm

I'm disheartened by the evil of the people that's supposed to keep me safe. Like I don't, I don't hold Koresh to the standard I hold our government to obviously. So they get there. I care more about scrutinizing them than a guy who thought he was like the lamb of God or whatever, that he was the return Christ. Duh. So, but there are people out there who are like, well, it's so much. So Koresh's fault that the ATFs justified in their actions because these guys were freakish.

uh the cult people who that we just had to get rid of them right if you watch news reports from the time there's people calling into news stations like i think they should just go in there and wipe them out i think they should just take them out one by one 23 children the people that yeah are apparently being molested and and victimize themselves and you're talking about storming in there and just got like gunning them down has actual psychopath like analysis

It's interesting how people reacted to it, too, because it was kind of like an early proof of concept of what the internet would become. People get to watch things through a screen and say whatever they want about it, and it never affects them. There were people calling in a news station saying that they want the ATF to just blow the building up, stuff like that, which they did. They took the advice, I guess. Yeah.

But like it, gosh, it's, it's so tragic that this is still acceptable operations, you know? And like, sure. I can't think of anything as large scale as this that has happened, but I mean, like, look at, look at the news, man. There's always some story about like some raid that turned out they didn't really need to do the raid and then people died and stuff like that. It just,

It really does break my heart. Yeah. We're supposed to be better than that. You know, we're supposed to win something. Your government institutions should be held to a much higher standard than a cult leader. You should be actively scrutinizing them for their mistakes because...

How are they meant to get better? I mean, it doesn't sound like they're taking the scrutinization to much effect, really. But still, you should be able to scrutinize them for their mistakes. And I don't see how this is anything other than an enormous mistake, an enormous blunder. And I'm sure you can rationalize it in any other way, like it had to happen or they were forced to or pressured to. But there has to be... With all the money that the ATF has, all the resources that the federal government has...

There had to be a better way that minimized the amount of loss that was suffered during this situation. This can't be the best outcome. This can't have been the best outcome. There was one interview I watched. He was a lawyer who was trying to... I don't think he was Koresh's lawyer. I think he was trying to get in contact with Koresh to be like legal representative. Anyway, during the siege, he gets Koresh's mother and he drives her out to the compound.

And when they get to the front, the ATF waves them off or whatever to turn around. And as the lawyer turned around, he heard one of the ATF agents say to another, I hope she had a chance to say goodbye. So they're just gunning to kill this guy to make as much noise as they can from the get-go. There was no instance of we're doing a good thing, we're saving kids. It's just like...

Let's be war heroes for a minute. Let's go in and play soldier. LARP, yeah. I mean, to be fair, I'm trying to give a balanced view. It doesn't sound like we're being extremely balanced right now. Please try. I'm definitely getting this. If there's a list I'm not already on, here we go. I'm trying to put myself in the position of an ATF...

soldier let's say agent um and if i knew that the guy in there was like this monster this monster that david koresh was that where he was i get i get wanting to kill koresh yeah absolutely so if they're like oh i hope she had time to say goodbye to this child molesting fucking you know what monster that's a good point that's a good point yeah that guy and there's you're right that guy there's a pedo let's let's whack him i'm down for that um

do it after yeah yeah it just more so to me indicates that like violence was always the objective yeah which again with koresh totally fine but as we found out it was not just koresh it was not targeted you know anywhere right yeah um and again all of this is david koresh's fault he's the one who didn't come out he's the one who started this in first place he's the one that took a 14 year old bride right he's the one that kind of built this into this cult of personality where exactly they've

they were in this position in the first place it absolutely lies at David Koresh's feet he is a monster think about this way think about this way a lot of women and children left but David Koresh had such a hold on so many people that when the ATF said you can come out if you want so many people stayed behind

Because they just wanted to stay with Krish. Like, absolutely evil, evil animal. And this is his fault. But the level that it was reached should not be reached by people who are supposed to be the good guys. Yep, 100%. I think, yeah, it's hard to give a very balanced approach here, given what our beliefs are or the conclusions that we come to. But I think it is important to really hammer home that

There are no good guys here. There are no winners at the end of the day. This is an awful situation, a horrible situation that should have never happened through multiple avenues of actions taken by different individuals. Something just tragic and calamitous happened that it's just such a sad situation. So sad. Yeah. It's really tragic that the amount of people that died did tragically die. So yeah,

Not a fan of David Koresh and not a fan of the actions. I think that's just as best as we can sum it up. You know what? Controversial take. David Koresh, don't like him. Yeah, not a fan. Not a fan. Not a fan. Yep. Man, Jackson really laid down the hot ones today. This wouldn't have happened under George Rodan. That's what I'm saying.

You know what? That guy who axed that member to death, that was just one kill. Let's get him back. Let's get him back in the race. Really, if we're going to trace it all the way back, this is all based... This all went wrong as soon as Florence Hutef made that incorrect revelation. It's Hutef's fault. Yeah. April 22nd. I know there's a chance that there's Davidians listening who believe in him, but you know what? That was step one of this eight-step process that led to where we were at.

Yeah, what a crazy butterfly effect of all the things that could have possibly gone wrong leading to just a tragic situation. Yeah, yeah.

That's, that's Waco. I hope everyone in the audience. Yeah, we're having a great day now. Really encouraging. I hope everyone in the audience enjoyed that analysis of the, and recount of the situation from the very beginning. Uh, do you have any, any final thoughts before we wrap this one up? Um, I, I do want to say just for the sake of my, uh, uh, social security number and, you know, future job opportunities, I guess I'd want to clarify, uh, I don't like David Koresh. I don't like the Branch Davidians. Uh,

And I also don't like the ATF, but I also I don't I'm not pro cult in this scenario.

I'm anti-everyone involved. I hope all of them lose. That's fair. They're both just terrible, yeah. I think it's important to be critical of everyone involved, definitely. Yeah, the only people to me who are innocent as this is the children who were supposed to be victims, or at least treated that way. They're supposed to be hostages, right? They're the only innocent people in this whole thing, and they died because of equal evil on both sides of the engagement. So...

Maybe not equal. That's a bit harsh, but definitely evil. Definitely evil on both sides of the engagement. They're true victims here at the end of the day. Yeah, that's what sucks about it.

But that's the red thread. Thank you very much for watching this episode of the red thread. Like I said at the beginning, you can check our sources and our documents and stuff like that in the description. And we're on Spotify, iTunes and Amazon Music and stuff like that. Links in the description so you can go listen to us on audio. Ratings really mean the world to us. It helps us out so much. And it's so nice to see all the positive ratings and comments from

So really let us know what you think of the show. Rate us where you can. It really does help us out a lot. And we're really enjoying doing this. Yeah, that's all from me.

Yeah, no, I'm having a great time. I'll be honest, the Red Threads, some of the most fun I've had in a while, just sitting down talking about these crazy stories. And it means a lot for you all to watch, for you all to rate, listen, enjoy the show. And I'm sorry if it's sometimes depressing, but you know what? That's what you get. If you signed up for it, what are you going to do? Leave? Stop watching? That's what I thought. So thank you all so much for watching. It means the world. Yeah. And now over to you, Charlie. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, that was pretty cool, I guess. I'm just going to let it be silent for the end of the episode. Actually, you know, this guy reminds me of Batman. Thanks for that, Charlie. All right, guys, we'll see you next time. Thanks for watching. Bye bye. Bye. Bye. Is that a Charlie fire?

♪