02: The Disappearances of Charles Morgan | Red Thread
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In the sun-baked sands of Arizona, on a hot day in June, a body is discovered just off a local road, marked with a bullet wound nestled snugly in the back of their head. The victim, a successful local real estate agent by the name of Charles Chuck Morgan. The discovery of the body had followed a month of mysterious disappearances and irregular behavior, with Chuck's family left reeling with more questions than answers. The death is ultimately ruled a suicide, but

But there are many who believe this to not be the case. Many maintain a contract killing from the mafia ended his life. Others assert the theory that loose ends were being tied up on a grand conspiracy that involved the federal and state government, as well as local law enforcement. The only clue? A list of names left by Morgan, etched onto the back of a $2 bill stuffed in his underwear.

cryptic clues and endless theories will have you scratching your old noggin in this week's episode of the red thread a show where we talk about cults cryptas and conspiracies and other interesting things my name is jackson and i'm joined by my fellow co-hosts azaya and charlie

Join us as we dig into the mystery surrounding the Charles Morgan cold case. How are you guys going? Good. I'm actually a little disappointed there wasn't more roleplay in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I took the advice from you. I love it when he does that. When he's just... What was the opening lines of that? On a hot summer day in July. It was a hot sun-baked day, I believe. Oh, that's so good. It's like an old 60 Minutes episode. It's great. I had to look up if June was actually hot in Arizona. Yeah.

Because I don't know your seasons. So I had to do a little bit of research. That turns out Arizona is usually generally just always hot. Arizona's kind of on fire all the time, yeah. Yeah. So this is episode two of The Red Thread. Yeah, exciting. I want to start off this episode by thanking all of you. The reception on the first episode was just...

beyond words really just so many nice comments so many words of encouragement so many people loving the show and you know that that's always just an extremely nice feeling so thank you all for joining us on the first episode and hopefully again for the second episode i don't know about you guys but it kind of blew me out of the water like how many people showed up for that was insane thank you all for real yeah that was wild yeah

And even better when the reception itself is good and people are wanting more. That's what I love as well, that people are enjoying the content. So we went back into the Red Thread Labs where we've got our investigation boards and stuff and we discussed and thought about what the next topic for the show would be. And that's when we stumbled upon an old cold case in the files. One of the very...

The most interesting, I would say, about a man named Charles Morgan, also goes by Chuck. So I want to start this off by asking you guys, when was the first time you heard of this cold case? For me, I think I heard about it a few years ago. I know BuzzFeed Unsolved tackled it a while back.

But maybe I had heard about it before then. I'm really not sure. But I do know at least the general basics of it. I actually know how it all unfolded as well. It's no longer a cold case to me when I've already cracked it. Oh, right. You've already cracked it. You've got the answers over there in your little document. Yeah, I've already connected all the dots. All right. I'm excited to get to that towards the end of this episode. I'll spoil it now. Don't spoil it now. He actually killed himself. He put the...

He just shot himself. That's what you think? That's the most unlikely theory, in my humble opinion. The authorities got it right. He put a bullet in the back of his head on the sun-baked sand. To be fair, if I was ever going to do that,

It would be funny to like leave a bunch of notes in my pocket and hold my hand at a really weird angle to be like, man, this will be so funny. Oh, actually, this is very unrelated, but there was a case of this happening in Florida. This is off tangent here, but somewhat related. There was a guy in Florida who killed himself, but he wanted to make it look like an assassination. So what he did is he shot himself in the chest twice and then

and then tied the gun to a balloon that flew away. So that way it looked like someone had assassinated him and ran. So just to confuse the investigators or anyone interested in the case? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean that is a power move like if you are going to go out that's probably the way to do it I don't remember why if it was just to go out in like a crazy way if you wanted to hide that it was a suicide But it was a fucking wild plan And then the police find it and they're like, oh my gosh the balloon killed this man We didn't know balloons could do that Oh no, we gotta alert the FDA immediately

So, I like the balloon tangent there, Charlie, but we might tackle that one in episode three. Well, that one's already been cracked. It was so cool. There's deep relevance there. It's Charlie. He was the balloon. That's how we know. Yeah, I saw the whole thing unfold. It was the wackiest display in the park I'd ever seen. So, what about you? Yeah, the Charles Morgan...

I first came across it when I was doing an iceberg about true crime cases and unsolved cases, and Charles Morgan was on there. And I remember reading into the details and being like, this is the most...

insane like episode of it felt like an episode of like some serial cop show like this doesn't happen in real life because the details are so wild those things leading up to the case are so wild and after I did the iceberg I think I mentioned it in the video but I at least told myself I am going to come back to this story I have to revisit it so I'm happy that we can do that now

Yeah, absolutely. And it is a wild story. There are so many twists and turns in here and so many irregularities that are just confusing. I mean, I guess you could sum it all up as potentially a crazy person, you know, tragically committing suicide, as Charlie said before. Like, it's possible. But there are just so many twists and turns in here that...

really make you think that perhaps there is a deeper conspiracy to it. So I'm excited to get into it and maybe walk through the events that happened during the situation. And then hopefully at the end, we might be able to discuss some theories and dig deeper into it like that.

It sounds like from what I already have heard that we might have deeply different opinions on what went down. So I am excited to get into that. All right. So the first... There's so much fucking pages here on the document. I'm trying to move around it. You just did like a whole scat man right there. Got him with a porky pig.

You all can't see this, by the way, but Jackson over here has typed up a 14-page document going into this case. I need information. It's insane. Like, Jackson's an animal because it's like, oh, this would be a cool topic and it's like radio silence for 12 hours and then he's like, I'm back. And he just drops this whole thing. Incredible work. Incredible work. I need it. I need it. If people from the official podcast and Charlie here know that I have a

just a terrible memory so I need these documents as a way to like actually remember what we've talked about or what we're going to talk about as someone who doesn't even like script for his videos this is insanely impressive I'm so proud of you me? oh you don't I'm proud of you no I never script for my videos so I'm proud of you is what I'm saying oh right I mean I'm proud of you you don't script your videos at all

I'm proud of both of you. I just pray. Off. That's very sweet. Thanks, Charlie. No, you're the cutest. All right. So let's start with the first disappearance. Because like I said in the preamble before, Charles Morgan actually disappeared multiple times. Interestingly enough. So on March 22nd, 1977, Charles Morgan dropped his two youngest children off at their school before he set off for work at his age.

escrow agency where he was a president we'll discuss what escrow is later am I pronouncing that right by the way escrow escrow escrow

Yeah, escrow. We'll discuss what escrow is later, but it's a pertinent part of the situation or the events. So after he dropped his children off, however, he instead vanished, having never made it to work in the first place. He was missing for three days, never having shown up in the evening back at home. His wife reported him missing during this period.

And it was a tumultuous period for Ruth Morgan, his wife, because obviously that's terrifying if your loved one just up and vanishes after dropping off the kids. He didn't pick up the kids on the way home. So, yeah, I mean, he just dropped off the face of the earth, basically. And then a few days later, three days later, he returned to his house, missing his shoe and plastic handcuffs were placed on his ankles and hands.

I don't know why they were plastic, if that has any part to it. If I recall correctly, I don't know if they were like, you know, zip cuffs? The kind that, like, you know, the police use or whatever. It was similar. They weren't called zip cuffs back then, but it's a similar design to them. If I recall right, that's what it's referring to there. Right, so not like police handcuffs, but just... Yeah, this wasn't like a kid's, like, playset. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Yeah.

When I was reading the research, I was like, what kind of, like, I don't know, like, mobster ties up their prey with, like, plastic handcuffs and stuff. They get kidnapped by playground bullies. He's like, lock him up, boys, and he gets out, like, a bright orange, like, Fisher-Price lock. One of those, like, plastic hammers, you beat him over the head with it.

He has a cap gun. He's like, I didn't want to do this. But yeah, plastic handcuffs, like a zip cuff kind of thing. Okay. There's some like Who Framed Roger Rabbit shit right there. So when he returned to his home, obviously Ruth, his wife, Ruth Morgan, was extremely happy to see him, even in his disheveled state. But she quickly found that Charles was unable to speak

For some reason, he wasn't able to get a word out. He was able to instead write down on a piece of paper explaining that he was kidnapped and held against his will and his captors had painted the inside of his throat. This was his explanation. They had painted the inside of his throat with a hallucinogenic that made it impossible for him to speak.

I've never heard of anything that could kind of induce that kind of effect and I researched a little bit and I still couldn't find any kind of, you know, anyone with common pharmaceutical knowledge or documented medical cases on the matter that would lead me to believe that was something that is possible. Do you guys know of any cases like that where you can put anti-speak gel over your throat and then your voice is gone?

I think it'd be more similar to like Novocaine, how like at the dentist when you have like Novocaine, it makes it a little harder to speak because it's all numb. Yeah, there was one recounting of the story I read where it said the reason he wouldn't speak is because it was placed inside of the back of his mouth and he was afraid if he spoke that he would swallow it. And he was trying to not do that.

Uh, yeah, he was, there was something placed in the back of his throat, like a hallucinogenic drug or something. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like a, almost like a, it's a weird way to gag someone, but like, you know, putting it in their mouth so that they can't talk and then getting away. Cause you know, that gives you time before he could yell out or whatever. Yeah.

But I'm trying to think of the logistics of that where he couldn't just like spit it out, right? Unless his mouth was taped shut, that would make sense. But even then just pull the tape off and then spit it out, you know? Yeah. Also the words that he used to describe this event, he says they painted the inside of his throat. That to me, that sounds like either a spray or like. Oh, well, that would explain why I couldn't spit it out.

Oh, yeah, because it's like actually just sprayed on the back of his throat and he was yeah, so then okay So it's right on the back of his throat or some some substance is sprayed on the back of his throat internally and then he's afraid that if he speaks like he'll consume it or something or maybe like Something I can swallow it or something like that. He's trying to keep like all the spit in his mouth forward can't talk right and

yeah yeah yeah i suppose that's possible so it's what we're getting at i guess is that the drug itself didn't have any kind of uh anti-speak properties to it inherently it's just that he was so afraid something would happen that potentially he just chose not to speak i mean the other i think the other possibility is that he was lying to his wife and he could speak but he didn't

have answers maybe potentially that would would satisfy her or or would like the answers that any answers he gave would perhaps incriminate him and he was still coming me coming to bed after being up too late my wife's like where are you and i just read a piece of paper like sorry drugs and throat can't can't explain my bad

I mean, what if this entire situation, he went through all of this effort with the plastic handcuffs and stuff, just to explain away an affair or something he's having. Just saw a prostitute, yeah. Yeah, something like that. There is a situation coming up in the story where that is a possibility, and I'll mention it when we get to it.

So, yeah, he refused to name who had taken him or where he had been. For some reason, he didn't want to give that information. I assume because he didn't want... He's like... If the story is true, I guess he didn't want to make his wife a target or something like that. He didn't want to upset the people that let him get away.

So he stopped his wife from calling the police, writing down that the assailants would know and would kill all of them if the police found out. After the initial disappearance, Ruth helped Charles recover. Before the recovery of his voice, Charles confessed to Ruth that for the past few years, he had been working undercover as a secret agent for the Treasury Department of the federal government.

So this was the story that he eventually told her. He had said that he had been covertly helping them fight organized crime, directly saying, they took my treasury ID. After this event, Charles became reasonably paranoid and would always wear a bulletproof Kevlar vest when outside and ensured he would be the only one to drive his daughters to and from school. He still refused to tell anyone about who had caused these disappearances and why, which is...

I mean, he realistically is only around for another few months before a second disappearance happens, which we'll talk about soon. But yeah, that's the story about the first disappearance. Basically, that's what it boiled down to. And that's what he claimed happened and why it happened. He claimed that he was a part of the Treasury Department fighting organized crime, and he stuck with that story. And he became extremely paranoid after that situation, wearing a Kevlar vest everywhere.

So this story is fascinating to me because if it was just that I would be able to write it off as like, I mean, we joked about it, but I'd honestly be like, yeah, the dude was having an affair. Maybe he was in some kind of organized crime like money laundering and this was his way to excuse it. And I would leave it there if it wasn't for the details of this case that come later, because it kind of Lee leans credence to,

into what he said after the first disappearance, right? And it is true that the way he phrased it or the way it's implied may not be accurate that he is a federal agent. More so what happens is the government will take people that they trust and

And they'll begin to effectively pay them to be a lookout, right? Like if they are involved in some kind of case or some kind of financial management, they'll say, hey, if anything suspicious happens, tip us off. Maybe some people on the other side of the feds got word of that and began to threaten him. Maybe his first kidnapping was just a threatening. They take him away for three days.

put his mouth effectively say don't you know run your mouth yeah and it seems to have worked because you know driving your kids every day in a bulletproof vest is the tell all of a scared man so that part seems or that's not the actions of a man who just performed an infidelity and I was just about to say or he's really committing to the bit because he knows if he drops it it wouldn't make any sense and then his wife will immediately accuse him of cheating with a prostitute

he comes home every day at a bulletproof vest he's like I missed it today that was a close one he's like it's getting more and more elaborate at night he walks outside shoots a gun in his air a gun in the air runs back inside did you hear that he's sleeping in a bulletproof vest

Is it possible at all that it is a lie? And like you said, he is acting, uh, this way and he's, he's convinced himself of this situation. I mean, it's a real mental illness. Yeah. There's certain mental illnesses that do. That's true. That's true. That's true. What you're describing is gang stalking. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely true that it could be the effects of someone who's just paranoid again, if it wasn't for the effects of the case that are seen down the road. Yeah. Um,

That's what I think leans into that maybe he was onto something here in the beginning. And also another thing to keep in mind is we'll talk about it a bit more when we get into his job and like the escrow agency. But this guy had a lot of responsibility at companies that handled a whole lot of money. So he didn't exhibit a lot of tendencies of someone who was mentally unstable.

Yeah, you're right. He was a president at his escrow agency. He was obviously pretty professional and intelligent, I would assume, if he was at that kind of level. And also pretty stable. You would need to be stable to kind of run an organization like that, I would assume. And he was a family man as well. He clearly loved his kids. He had a good relationship with his wife. She didn't say that there were any periods of mental instability beforehand or anything like that. Nothing to lead me to suspect anything.

That he was mentally ill beyond perhaps as a possibility for what happens during the case. But you're right in that there are so many different factors coming up that kind of make his paranoia seem more realistic as an actual reasonable thing. So the only other thing that happened during the first disappearance was afterwards he...

He had a conversation with his father and his father claimed afterwards, um, to news reporters after the murder that Charles had told him that he had hid a lit letter somewhere in the house with information for Ruth, his wife about everything. He had intended this letter to only be opened after his death. And to this day, the letter has never been found. Um,

So I'm not sure. I'm not, I'm honestly not sure if the letter did exist or didn't, or maybe it does exist in the family found it and it incriminates Charles and they chose to keep it private. Perhaps that, I mean, that could be a possibility if he's talking about,

uh his own illegal actions or criminal actions in the letter and they don't want to you know degrade his reputation or whatever maybe they keep it private maybe they keep the letter private not sure regardless we've never seen the letter still to this day so i think that is a pretty important piece of the puzzle going forward as well like there's probably a lot of evidence in that letter if i had to suspect to me that's the most frustrating part of the entire case yeah

Yeah, absolutely. Again, where we're at now, it's like, yeah, haha, he's just a guy hooking up with someone who cares. But after what comes later, it's like, man, that letter sure would have been handy. A shame she can't find it.

It's also just nonsensical to have that letter and hide it till he was dead. It's not like they, if he left clues or something, it'd make more sense, but to just hide it and say, hopefully you find it after he's gone is nonsensical to me. We will get into it. But one of the part of my theory is that a lot of the clues that he did leave would have possibly led to the letter if an event in the future didn't happen.

Maybe the clues you're referring to though. Don't, it's not like a treasure map. It's not like it's leading them to the one piece or anything. It's just general, like about the case though. Not so much the letter, unless I'm misremembering. Uh, there, okay. So there is a literal map on, on the $2 bill. Uh,

it probably isn't like a map to the treasure, but there is a map on it, which is funny enough. And we'll get to that in a second. When we talk about the second disappearance, I guess we can get into that right now. So on June 7th, Charles disappeared again on his way to work. Does it feel at all weird that this guy's name is Charles? Do you want me to call him Chuck Charlie? Is it, is it scaring you a little bit? No, there's so many Charles's in the world. I think you should call him Charlie. I think we should lean into it.

I think we're close enough for that now, yeah. This is a guy who's like driving kids to school in a bulletproof vest. He's got acid in his throat or whatever. I think that's a good... We could call him Charlie. Yeah. Sounds applicable. So nine days later, an unidentified woman would call Ruth, letting her know that Charles was okay.

She referenced a Bible passage to Ruth. The Bible passage was incorrectly stated to be Ecclesiastics 12, 1 through to 8, when instead she had likely meant Ecclesiastes. Am I getting that right? Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes. Is the way it's supposed to be pronounced. But yes, in the original she said Ecclesiastics.

Yeah, so she conveyed the wrong information, but I assume she still had the right idea. I think she just did a Jackson and misread it or something. So 12-1-8 is the passage. The unknown woman hung up the phone after the short message, and two more days later, after this first disappearance, Charles' body was found in the desert near San Juan Springs.

He had been shot in the back of the head and had been found dead for approximately 12 hours. He was still wearing the bulletproof vest. So he was committed to the bulletproof vest. He kept that sucker on the entire time. A lot of good into them. Sadly, it didn't protect the head. He should have worn like a football helmet or something. I don't know what would stop that. Maybe like a...

I don't know, like a Master Chief helmet. The shot had come from his own gun, which was a Magnum, which was still at the crime scene. So they located the gun at the crime scene. Charles was also found to have gunpowder residue on his left hand, indicating that he had fired a weapon recently.

No fingerprints were found on the gun or anything else at the crime scene. And his belt was also found to have a buckle that doubled as a concealed blade. So it was one of those like a fancy belt buckles that if you like detach it at where the, where the buckle is, it turns into like a little shiv, like a little knife. So this isn't Assassin's Creed shit. Yeah, it really is. Like I've seen pictures of it. I don't know if I'll be able to put them on screen, but I've seen pictures of it and it is like actually like a concealed weapon. It's, it's pretty nuts. Pretty,

Pretty cool. So he was prepared for anything, it seemed. He had a lot of weapons on him. His car was also found near the crime scene and there were some sunglasses not belonging to Charles and a tooth belonging to Charles was wrapped in a white handkerchief. Both items were found in the car, along with ammunition. There was a lot of ammo in the car, apparently. I don't have the exact number of ammo or the type of ammo, but apparently there was ammo in the car.

And there was also in the car with a note with directions to Charles's body, which is weird, right? If someone assassinated him and then left a letter like saying, hey, police, you can find him right here. I found that quite strange, right?

Mm-hmm. Yep. Definitely strange. I mean, so, but then also if he was committing suicide, why would he leave a letter like detailing where to find his body? I don't understand that part at all. There's no kind of theory that where that would fit into for me. If it was suicide, he could be putting it there so that way they could get the body and bury him. I don't know. Oh yeah, true. I guess it would fit in with the suicide theory still.

All right. And so the big part of this case, the reason why it's so interesting to a lot of people, including myself, is a $2 bill was found clipped on the inside of Charles's underwear. On the bill, he had written seven Spanish surnames beginning from A down to G. These had never been publicly shown in high quality or otherwise stated from what I could find anyway, which does seem suspicious to me.

But there does seem to be a reputable photo of the $2 bill with the names in low quality. And the best I could make out with the following. Can someone read these? Because I can't pronounce words. Charlie, how are you with Spanish names? Not great. I can try, though. I think so. Number one is Acevedo. Number two.

Bejarano. Three is Cagliaro. Duarte. Encinas. Fuente. And Gradillas. Yeah. That's great. Good job. That's the best. That sounded good. Yeah, I think you did a pretty good job. So that's the best of the, you know, the best I could get out of those letters and stuff. I think they're fairly accurate, but I still don't know what any of them mean. Like, it could be anything at this point.

Above the names on the $2 bill was also the Bible passage. Again, you're going to have to pronounce it for me. Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes 12. And above that, there were markings on the notes indicating either the numbers 1 through to 8 or 6 through to 8 on the serial number of the bill. So there were little arrows pointing to the serial number.

Obviously, this was the same passage that the woman on the phone to Ruth was referencing. And a crude map on the back of the bill pointed detectives to the towns of Robles Junction and Solacity. Both of these towns were located between Tucson and Mexico, and both were infamous for smuggling and trafficking. They were kind of like crime hotspots. And also on the back of the $2 bill, I'm kind of giving you an information overload here, but I think it's important to just directly get what was on the bill.

out into the open right now. He had also marked seven signs of the Declaration of Independence. So, $2 bills for anyone like me who doesn't know what American currency looks like. If you flip over a $2 bill, it's got a portrait of the...

the signers of the declaration of independence they're all sitting at a table signing the declaration so they are to the best of my ability again one through to seven one being john hancock two charles thompson three benjamin franklin four thomas jefferson five robert livingston six roger sherman seven john adams so they're all marked as well by by um chuck so that's

That's a lot of information. I don't think it's a coincidence. I'm not sure, but I don't think it's a coincidence that there are seven Spanish names on the front and then the seven signers of the Declaration of Independence on the back of the note. My theory is that Chuck is alluding to perhaps a criminal organization and these are...

perhaps the Spanish names on the front, perhaps the founders of the organization, hence why he's pointing to the Declaration of Independence since those are the founders of your country, I believe. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I interpret it. It's almost creating...

It's like he's building out a codex on the back of this dollar bill because he's taking these seven people up there. This has been my theory with it. So he takes seven names that are also like alphabetical A, B, C, D, E, seven Spanish names. And then on the other side, he circles seven people.

people signing the declaration of independence. So maybe like you, Charles, uh, John Hancock, Charles Thompson, maybe people who are implicated in this thing are named John and Charles. And he's setting up a codex for what he will refer to them as in some other writing. Maybe this guy named John, who he wants to take down. He's going to refer to as Acevedo in something else that he writes. Maybe this is like a, um,

code breaker effectively for some conspiracy but whatever it was he didn't live long enough to finish the rest of it out which is so frustrating but to me this seems like the answer sounded that letter potentially found in that letter that he uh has mysteriously vanished could you imagine if that letter had details like that if it was like you know mentioning these seven spanish names and stuff yeah

I know, so frustrating. Or if it was just written in plain, non-confusing English about what's going on. It's just written on the letter. "Hey, forget about all that shit on the $2 bill. Here's what actually happened." "Hey, Ruth, I know you weren't smart enough to crack my $2 bill, so here's the step-by-step on what's gone down." Yeah, I, yeah, it's just, I killed myself. I like Charlie sitting over here. Like, what's with the puzzles? Who did it? What are you talking about?

Yeah, I feel like it's so unnecessary to try and get us on a wild goose chase. If he knows he's a... Well, I guess he didn't know he was about to die, unless it was a planned suicide, but you could have just been like, hey, here's the bad guys. They're not nice. Again, this leads... If he's not mentally ill or whatever, and this is...

let's act under the assumption that he's sane and this is all, you know, warranted paranoia. Then that means there's a criminal organization that is coming for him and he wants to act in such a way that he is able to get the information through without, you know, putting his family or himself at further risk. So that's,

that's what I'm operating under. That's why he's leaving all these codes and shit. I think that makes sense. I mean, this is a man willing to drive around all day with a bulletproof vest, like codes and ciphers and stuff like that. I don't feel like too unrealistic for him. It's also like he's, he drew arrows around the serial number for one through eight. We have seven names listed. Uh,

uh, we have Ecclesiastes 12, one through eight. Then we have the seven people drawn on the back. Maybe he's the eighth man. Maybe that's what he's implying. Uh, cause one of the people that he circled on the back of the doll, the $2 bill was Charles Thompson, right? Um, so maybe he's considered one of them. Uh, I don't know, but it feels like the $2 bill was supposed to be the answer to a puzzle. We haven't seen.

I feel like, I feel like the $2 bill was meant to be a key to a puzzle that we haven't seen. I feel like the, that's what, that's what I mean by like, yeah, it was supposed to be like the steps needed on some other script or whatever. Yeah. There's definitely a missing, a missing piece here, which is very frustrating because I don't think we'll ever solve the puzzle as it was intended because we are missing a crucial piece. Another, another weird thing here is I do,

Yeah, I don't think these are real names, these Spanish names. I mean, they're probably real names, but I don't think... It's weird to me that they are in alphabetical order. A through G. Yeah, he was conveniently able to find seven names, A through G, and have them be meaningful in a way outside of a cipher. So it definitely seems to me like it's a cipher of some kind. It's a stand-in for something, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, disregarding all these suspicious elements, which there are already just...

massive pile of weird circumstances here investigators in the police department ruled that the matter was a suicide pretty quickly as well many people including the family of charles uh vehemently disagree with that assessment still to this day investigative journalist don devereaux stated i've never seen in all my all of my years as a journalist a fellow take himself out into the desert wearing a bulletproof vest and shoot himself in the back of the head

I mean, when you put it like that, it is like really fucking weird. Also, I think, I think it should be mentioned. Um,

We mentioned that his gun was the weapon and that it was found at the scene. It was not found in his hand. It was found like over to the side. A fire call right is over an embankment or something as if someone fired and threw it. There's no way, even if you want to think that he set this whole thing up as a prank, there's no way he shot himself in the back of the head. And then in the millisecond following had the fortitude to launch it over the, out of, out of range.

How powerful are magnums? I've heard they have a bit of kick, though. Yeah, it's a .357 magnum. They're pretty... Is it possible at all that he went limp immediately in the recoil, like, kind of

Not enough because like a revolver, if I recall right, it was a Python. If I remember the details of the story, right? It's a pretty weighty revolver. So like while you're holding it and fire like it'll snap, it would only have enough recoil to like fall out of your hand. It's not going to launch 20 feet over an embankment.

Right. Okay. Um, some, some more elements that make me think it's not a suicide along with what Don Devereaux just, I just quoted him as saying, um,

Like you said, the gun wasn't found on the body. I would assume if it was a suicide, the gun would be found on the body. On top of that, gunshot wound to the back of the head, probably not the way most people commit suicide using a gun. I imagine that's more of an execution style, really. So that's a point against it. On top of that, he had...

I believe gunpowder residue on his non-dominant hand. But his dominant hand was clean as far as I could tell. So, I mean...

shooting himself in the back of the head using his non-dominant hand. That just seems super weird. And on top of that, he's wearing a bulletproof vest. This is clearly a man that wanted to live, in my opinion. He's wearing a bulletproof vest. He wants to live. He doesn't want to be assassinated. He loved his children. He loved his family. He loved his life. There's cases of people taking their own life after some stint of mental delusion like this. But like we mentioned earlier, this guy was...

very well-rounded for his whole life, president of a company, very intelligent, and...

and had no weird blips in his personality until his disappearance two months earlier. So he was like a well-rounded guy, does this, starts acting in accordance to that belief, and then dies in this regard. So it's not like someone just had a mental snap that led to all this. It seems like it was some greater conspiracy happening around him.

May I pose another interesting theory that I've been cooking up here? Yes, please. What if... And this is a bit of a leap. But what if he was working with somebody else, like...

um to me this seems like maybe something went wrong with whatever he was tangled up in he couldn't find a way out that would like not jeopardize the safety of his family so he as well as somebody else in the organization concocted this plan where he would kill charles and then plant all of this evidence around as a way of like subtly warning the rest of the group or something as some kind of like

you know, grand message. So that way Charles family can be spared. Like maybe he did something that could have put them in danger. And this was the only way he could get them safe. So wait, wait, wait, still. So your, your theory is still a suicide, but with another person, well, just more of like a planned thing. I think Charlie's saying he got like pressured into it. Like, look, either you can die or you and your family can die.

I'm thinking more on like, I guess I'm too deep into old action movies, but like where a spy is truly against the wall. They have a family they need to think about. And the only way they can rationalize, like keeping their family safe is by them being dead and

And the family having no idea as to why or what they were involved in. So that way they're like truly just in the dark. So there'd be no reason to kill them. So he'd have one of the other organization members kill him and then put all of this evidence around. So that way it makes it clear, like, okay,

Like it would only make sense to those inside, like in the know, like those names, Acevedo, Gredias, all that, like that, maybe that means something to them. And since this did get publicized, they would see that and they'd know like, okay, I get what's going on. And then the family could be safe or something. Some kind of internal note effectively. So it's like him quitting his job and warning the others in the process. Yeah. But doing it to keep his family safe.

But in the process is warning the people that are threatening you? A warning is the wrong word. A message. Yeah, just some kind of message. What's the message? Like, hey, you guys win. I'm killing myself. Don't use my family. Basically. That'll show you. You can't kill me. I kill me.

It's kind of cool, actually, if he did that. Yeah, something like that. No, I get what you're saying. Like, maybe he got tangled up in something. His family was at risk. Only way that his family could be safe is if he took himself out of the equation. So he did, but left a warning, effectively, to the other people involved. Or a threat, maybe. Maybe, like, that note getting to the police put something in jeopardy. Who knows? Like, if you just kill...

My thing is, if he had just killed himself, maybe the rest of the group would be like, okay, how much does his family know? We'll have to kill them just to be safe. So instead, he had to have someone else kill him as well as leave behind all of these messages that only make sense to them. So that way it would maybe absolve his family of like knowing anything. But if this was the case, like he would probably wouldn't even need to commit suicide. He'd just flee the country or something.

Possibly. Yeah, but with his family and what, be hunted forever? Well, no, just leave them. Maybe he didn't love his family. Maybe just leave him behind. I don't know. I don't feel like the suicide angle, it doesn't make sense to me. Hold on. Let's get into more details of the case, and then we'll wrap back around to the theory stuff. I'm just tossing a bunch of possible things out there. Look, Charlie, I want you, I would be so thrilled if you just continue...

finding new ways for this guy to kill himself. Rube Goldberg machine, basically. Have we considered the fact that the gun may have killed him on its own? So we're talking about all these theories and conspiracy theories and Charlie's coming out as the most conspiracy theorist of all of us, but it still boils down to just suicide.

I'm a suicide truther, okay? I know they're hiding stuff from us. And what they're hiding from us is more suicides. You think Epstein killed himself? I think he killed himself even harder. Epstein really did kill himself, but not in the way you think. But it was way more elaborate than the narrative. It was like...

There were several steps. There were like three other people involved, but it was still a suicide. I'm a suicide absolutionist. Thank you.

Alright, so two days after Charles' body was discovered, the same woman who had called Ruth previously called the Pima County Sheriff's Department. She called herself Green Eyes, I assume because she had green eyes. Not very creative, but still, that's what she called herself. She claimed that the week leading up to his death, Charles had been at a local motel. This was also corroborated by CCTV footage, which I was very surprised to know existed in the 70s, by the way. I didn't think that was...

common thing back then but yeah there was cctv footage of charles at the motel with green eyes she visited him a few times and allegedly he had with him a suitcase filled with thousands of dollars apparently he told her that the money was to pay off an assassin that had been hired to kill him it was alleged that someone had put a ninety thousand dollar contract on his life this would be worth around four hundred and forty thousand dollars in today's dollars adjusted for inflation

And it was also a bounty that was increasing by $5,000 per day. So someone really wanted him dead. This was like some John Wick tier stuff. Like he was, what's the word? Excommunicado or whatever. The bounty just kept going up basically each day. So he had said that he was going to meet the hitman himself and buy back his life.

It's unknown if this story holds any weight, but Green Eyes is certainly a compelling witness, given the fact that she had called Ruth earlier and referenced the exact Bible passage that was referenced on the $2 bill itself. So remember, when Green Eyes called Ruth during the disappearance, so before he had actually died, but during the disappearance, she had quoted the Bible passage, just the name of the Bible passage, to Ruth as a way of...

I guess, calming her down or giving her information. And then obviously after the death, we find the name of that same Bible passage on the $2 bill stuffed in his underwear. So there obviously is some validity to her story or at least she's connected to it somehow. Yeah, that's what confirms Ruth is more than just like a prank caller of sorts because that was kind of like a confirmation code that she was actually involved. Yeah.

Is it at all? No, wouldn't it be possible that she just somehow happened across this information and utilized it? No, because that's actually why right here they know that, if I recall correctly, the reason they know it's the same woman who called Ruth is because in her call to the police, she said, yeah, I told Ruth the Bible verse because that wasn't public information yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.

So, yeah, this is another... She's not a person of interest because it's been ruled a suicide. So I don't think the police were really even interested in her too much. But she's definitely connected to this situation. And she was at the motel. What do you guys think about Ruth? Not Ruth, sorry, Green Eyes. Do you think she was potentially a prostitute or a fellow secret agent?

If I may pose something here, gentlemen, Jesus Christ, please. What if it really did start as an affair and Charles Morgan at some point does have all this money with him. Green Eyes is the one to eventually kill him. She writes down that Bible verse, says it back to Ruth, confirming like the connection. But instead of like, like.

Even back then, there was something that killers would do where they'd like freeze a body to confuse the time of death. So what if she did kill him far earlier than ever reported? And then eventually that body ends up on there. The Bible verse is already planted on the $2 bill and the detectives just get the time of death wrong because of it.

And all of it was to steal that money that he brought to the motel. It is possible. I will also mention. That is an interesting theory. Honestly, it is an interesting theory. And I do think green eyes could be implicated more so because for one, she lied, right? Uh,

It seems like she lied because she told Ruth, your husband's okay. And then he's found dead one or two days later. Yeah. Maybe he was fine at that point, but that clearly something went wrong. You know, if that was what I'm imagining, what I'm imagining the most, let's say the most optimistic case for green eyes here is that they were together at the motel.

And, and, um, what's his name? Chuck had told her, Charles had told her about, you know, his current predicament, stuff like that. He told her about the $90,000 contract on his life. And he's like, Hey, I can't talk to my wife. Uh, there's too much, you know, heat on me or eyes on me. I need you to call her, tell her that I'm going to be all right. Quote this passage or whatever. And I'm going to go deal with the assassin with this money or whatever. I still like, I, I don't know why,

why they're together, though. Actually, hold on, hold on, hold on. You may be onto something right there. No.

Because if he said, quote, Ecclesiastes 12, 1 through 8, and then she mispronounces it, that doesn't sound like what someone who's writing it down who came up with it would do. They wouldn't say Ecclesiastes. It sounds like she's been relayed that information and gotten it wrong. She was told by him to say Ecclesiastes. So she picks up the phone and says Ecclesiastics, right? Because she messed up the word. And it was instead something Chuck came up with to say, a sort of a confirmation phrase, which he wrote on the $2 bill.

Doesn't even, it doesn't even need to be like spoken to her. Maybe he left her a note or something saying, call this number and tell the woman this and wrote it down on a piece of paper and she just couldn't read his handwriting. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't sound like she came up with it if she mispronounced the word, you know? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I definitely think that leads some supporting evidence to her not knowing.

Or not being connected in that way, I mean, as in murdering her. But I do like your creativity there, Charlie. I do find that a fun theory. I think at the end of the day, when it comes to really confusing cases of death, it'll usually involve money in some way. And he clearly had a lot of money with him at the motel talking about how he's going to buy his life back. So I think there is just a chance Green Eyes kills him, takes the money, and then tries to come up with an elaborate plan to make it all seem...

very different than the reality. What's confusing to me is the whole idea of buying your life back. Like these hit men have any kind of code of honor or anything that they're not just going to kill you and then take the money and double dip. Yeah. Yeah. Why would you show up to guys getting 450,000 to kill you with assumedly 500,000? So we could just kill you, take the money and get a million dollars. That guy, that hit man probably thought it was like, he's lucky as day. He's target came to him with a briefcase full of money. Like,

No, I know you're trying to kill me, but don't worry. I'll be holding a lot of money when you do. I've got a lot of good loot. Should I bring my bulletproof vest or not? I'm a crazy loot box. Just wait.

Yeah, no, but yeah, I mean, that's just, that seems weird in of itself. And I feel like maybe it's desperation. Maybe he was so tired that he didn't think things through, but I feel like most people would be smart enough not to do that as well. But I don't know. That's the story that Green Eyes conveyed. And I guess that's the story that if we're, if we're being, if we're believing Green Eyes, that's the story that she was told by Charles. Yeah.

So another fun little thing that occurred and an interesting event that happened after the death was shortly after the death, two suited men visited the home of the victim. So Charles Morgan's house while Ruth was home. They stated to Ruth that they were FBI agents. For those of you who don't know, that's the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Though she was unable to confirm their identities, they would then go on to deliberately and methodically search through the home, Ruth claimed. They allegedly never explained what they were looking for.

That's kind of insulting, first of all. You didn't need to say it that way, FBI. But also, on top of that...

I'm pretty sure that they did say that they were investigating it at some point or that they didn't know of the situation beforehand. So them saying that they did not know who Charles was after that seems weird. And also it's not like the FBI is not going to lie about things anyway, right? Yeah, so they're definitely in their, you know, their wheelhouse to lie. Saying that they didn't know who he was was weird. Maybe they were saying they don't know who he was regarding...

an investigation into more because they were part of the investigation into his murder because it was like covered by the state or whatever but then they made a request to like feds after it involved money and stuff like that which I think was happening at this point maybe the FBI hadn't gotten involved yet but it's weird that they're just like oh we don't know who that incredibly high profile murder case is because they should have been investigating the finances at that point yeah

Yeah, there's definitely... There's also information later on that Chuck's attorney, as well as I believe the attorney general of the state, both claimed that Chuck was actually being honest when he said he was working with the federal government or government in some capacity to testify on the behalf of them about a different case. I'm not sure how connected that is to...

to the murder or suicide but it is something that they said happened yeah maybe because everything was under investigation at that moment they just were like oh well don't give any information lie about it you know but it's still a weird thing to say

Yeah. So just to, just to quote Don Devereaux directly, he said, when I made a Freedom of Information Act request to the FBI, they had never heard of Charles Morgan, despite the fact that they obviously opened an investigation, despite the fact the FBI interviewed Mr. Morgan's attorney. They were all over this thing like a blanket for a while, but now they've never heard of the guy. He never existed. No card, no file, no nothing.

So, yeah, I mean, that's, that is weird. That is weird that, um, you know, they were interviewing his attorney and stuff. I assume about a different situation. Like I said, the attorney general had said that Chuck had been working with the government in some capacity, uh, to testify on, on, on their behalf about a situation. So there was some kind of connection there, but now they're claiming that he doesn't exist. Maybe they got their wires crossed and they didn't

They didn't make the right connections or they're lying. I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. I mean, as with any case like this, anything the feds do around it is pretty sus. Sus, yeah.

Yeah, definitely. And so do you believe that the two FBI agents, alleged FBI agents that raided the home, do you believe that they were FBI agents or do you think they were potentially parts of this criminal organization, this hypothetical criminal organization?

It would be weird for the FBI to do a in-person investigation and then lie about it later. That seems like that could get them in a lot of hot water quick. I think, I don't think they were FBI agents. I think they may have been people acting on behalf of the FBI.

Like maybe they were two guys who the feds were familiar with or two guys who were tangentially related to the case. So they show up at the house and maybe the FBI knows about it. It's a part of some greater thing. But if the case gets into the layers that the conspiracy says it does regarding like finances being mismanaged, stuff like that.

then it does make sense the federal government could have been acting as sort of contractors for whatever was happening. That happens a lot, especially outside of the United States or whatever. But very CIA spooky type stuff, right? But...

maybe it was someone kind of related to them and that's what leads and the fbi was able to lie about it but i don't think they would send fbi agents on an open investigation and then just lie about them ever being there yeah it does seem like they open themselves up to be clearly being you know uh discovered let's say yeah so i don't think they were fbi agents but they could have been acting on behalf of the fbi

Yeah, I definitely don't think they were FBI agents. I'm going to be completely honest. I don't think, I think they would have, if they were there operating as the FBI, I think they would have been a lot more forthcoming with Ruth. Um, and they probably would have done it in a more appropriate manner.

Not necessarily if it is like a big, like a deep web, like at the upper echelon of things like the FBI's never like, like what's going to happen if the FBI is caught doing something illegal? Like who's going to do anything? The FBI, the CIA. Yeah, I guess. But I mean, if again, if it goes up to like the very top brass, I don't think they started investigating themselves for wrongdoing. Yeah.

I don't think it was. This is as an Australian devoid of America's shit. Who has more power, the CIA or the FBI? So the CIA is in effect its own beast. It is part of the federal government, but they're entirely in-house. Their level of operations, their control, stuff like that. So the CIA does their own thing.

with like authority or whatnot from the white house. But really where the CIA comes from is during world war two, we needed a lot of information about other countries. And then after the war ended, we didn't want to get rid of them. So we kept them around. So now all that they do is they keep tabs and agents on other countries. And then they do stuff that doesn't have to be expressly associated with the United States. So that includes, you know, igniting militant groups and other countries, uh,

sending in agents or secret agents into other political parties across the world to see what they're doing. Basically, the CIA operates on stuff America wants to do but can't publicly be associated with. So because of that, they're kind of their own beast. So it's kind of like apples to oranges. It's not that one has more power over the other. They just do different things. That being said, the CIA gets away with a lot more than the FBI can. Right.

Because there's a lot more clandestine. Yes, yeah, yeah. But I still do think the FBI wouldn't really need to be super clean in the way they'd handle something like this. They could legitimately just go in there. They could, absolutely. But does it benefit them, too? No, it doesn't. I don't think it was FBI agents either, but I also think there is a chance...

just straight up could be. And they just, yeah, they could just lie about it. Yeah. It's impossible to call the police. Yeah. And it's not like we're going to get the, them saying that it was them if, if they're willing to lie about it. So it's impossible to say now. Um, but yeah, my, my, my assumption, my personal assumption is that, uh, these individuals weren't part of the FBI. I don't think they were even affiliated with the FBI. I think it's likely that they were the same people that, that killed, uh,

or had a part in killing Chuck anyway. If there was a hitman, there is an organization or a criminal, you know, some kind of criminal organization that wanted Chuck dead. We're operating under that premise that

He had a contract out on his life. Someone paid it. A criminal paid it. So I think the criminals raided his house to find any kind of, I guess, information on them. If they killed him for the information that he had about their organization, then it serves to reason that they would then raid his house to find that information and get rid of it. And again, this process...

potentially ties into the letter that he allegedly left after his death. Maybe they found that and it did have information in it and they're like, yoink, that's ours now. You don't get to read his last words, Ruth. Sorry. That's also true. He wrote out Leda's names on it or some shit. Gentlemen, if I may once again. You may. How reliable do we think Ruth is? This is still old Ruth's

This is only her claiming that the FBI agents came to visit her, correct? Is there any other confirmation from anyone else associated here that anyone visited that house? So you're saying, what if Chuck killed himself in the house? Not necessarily. That's a cool theory. I'm just memeing on you. It's okay.

Anything's possible. All I'm saying is maybe no one hated him. What if they killed himself in the house? What if Ruth and Green Eyes formed an alliance? That's why Green Eyes called her originally. Hold on.

Is he coughing? Was that what that noise was? He's being assassinated. He's getting too close to the tree. Oh no, Green Eyes got him. She killed Charlie himself. She made Charlie kill himself in the house.

I got a little too close to the truth. Don't say it. Whatever it is, don't say it. Take it to the grave. I feel so much better. I see what you're saying. Maybe Ruth needed to get for some reason to divert attention. So she said FBI agents visited the house.

Yeah. Like maybe there was something in the house, like maybe Charles left behind a lot of money or something that she would have to like report upon his death or something if it was illegally obtained. And then she didn't want to. So she makes up this story about, oh, we got visited by FBI agents. You know, if there's, you know, they might've taken something, you know, whatever. Interesting. Okay. So, all right.

uh so she knows that chuck has been involved in some criminal wrongdoing or whatever and there's like money left behind or whatever uh and she knows that that's going to be taken by the government or whatever or whoever investigates uh so she she formulates this raid you're saying and then she takes the evidence in the process okay hold on hold on i have a count i have a uh uh whatever the word is for a theory that goes off of that theory um tangent

Thank you. What if instead of like her just lying and saying that the FBI showed up to the house, what if she was told to...

to say the FBI showed up to the house. Because if you're trying to say money went missing, you wouldn't implicate the feds. You wouldn't be like, oh, well, the federal government took it, because that's easily traceable, right? But what if men showed up to the house, took stuff, and said, you're going to call the police, you're going to say that we were federal agents, and then they leave. Right, yeah. I mean, that serves a reason. That makes more sense. I do think she kind of, like in her quotes and stuff, I don't have them on hand, but I do think that she was

unsure about them being fbi agents as well because she i mean she in this theory she knows they're not fbi agents but like she she left room in her quotes like she said they didn't show her fbi identification or anything like that they didn't identify themselves they just said they were according to her yeah yeah so i i think it's likely yeah if if the criminals are going to come by

these criminals are going to come by and raid the house, then I mean, yeah, I don't see why they wouldn't be like, yeah, we're FBI. Tell the cops the feds did this. Yeah. Or tell the cops that we're feds. Yeah. Or we'll come back and hurt you guys. Like they still have power over them. Yeah. But I feel like, see, so sadly Ruth passed away, I think in 2005. I feel like if there was information that she was

holding on to I feel like she would have left her own note or she would have you know on her deathbed let that kind of news out you would hope at least right yeah yeah I mean I feel like it's been long enough it's been 35 years that if she was holding on to that information it would have come out by now she probably would have felt safe at some point

I think so as well. I just... Just to explain, I think it's just always important to look at every outrageous angle because sometimes the most outrageous ones are the correct ones that I think it's kind of fun to play with. It's absolutely fun. I love that shit. I wasn't joking about saying you need to make up more suicide theories. That was... I meant that. That was from the heart. I think that... For me, I do think... Legitimately, I don't think he killed himself. I think...

If anything, it could have been like a planned homicide or something. Like maybe he had a life insurance policy he just took out and he wanted to leave his family money or some shit. But I think the most important component of this is

He had a lot of money. He met some girl at a motel. There could have been infidelity there. Maybe he was worried that, you know, he'd lose his position. He'd lose his wife. He'd lose his family. All of this. He felt cornered. He felt trapped. But he did have all this money. Maybe something went awry with green eyes. It's just to me, a lot of these very confusing cases boil down to someone getting money out of it.

Right. Whether it's a hit man here or green eyes here, or maybe even Ruth somehow just, just food for thought. Oh, is it, is it at all possible that he had set up the first disappearance to create this whole idea that, um, that he was being, you know, hunted or whatever to his wife. And then he, uh, it was actually designed so that he could run away with green eyes. And that's why he had all that money with him.

Oh, and then she just got really selfish, wanted all the money for herself. Yeah. If that was the case, why would she call the police after he's dead? To brag.

I don't know. You've poked a hole in my theory. Because she's the one who called and explained all because all that money stuff comes from her. We see the CCTV footage that corroborates it, like you said, that he had a briefcase. But all the stuff about the money, the hitman, all that, that's all her doing.

Okay, but what if she knows, like she's smart enough to know that she's on CCTV holding the briefcase or whatever, or around the briefcase, around the victim. So she gets ahead of it and calls to kind of offer up her innocence. Was she ever seen on CCTV or was it just him? Yeah, she was seen on CCTV. She wasn't, I think it was in such a way that you still couldn't identify her, but he was clearly with a woman at the motel. Yeah, that was caught on CCTV. Okay.

So yeah, could she be calling to kind of, I guess, paint a picture that he was being... Yeah, because she told them the information about the hitman as well, right?

Yeah, you just said that. Yeah, that's her. Yeah, yeah. So if she told them the information about the hitman, she's offering up an alternate theory to the police. An alternate theory to what might have happened, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So in a way, trying to make herself innocent. If she knows she's already on CCTV. It seems like she didn't even... Assuming all of this was...

Like, she didn't even need to go through all the effort because they just immediately ruled it a suicide. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, there could have been more investigations done regardless. Now, that would be the Charlie strategy. The police are like, we think he killed himself. And he calls, he's like, have you ever considered that maybe he killed himself even harder? Yeah. Five gunshot wounds to the back of the head is his textbook suicide. Yeah.

I don't think we're trying hard enough to see this as a suicide boys. I think we can go harder. Okay, cool. So after that, there's still more of this case to get into. Where would you like to continue at?

Yeah, so we had talked about that. Following the death, an attorney previously affiliated with Charles confirmed that Morgan had testified in a secret state investigation involving Banco Internacional de Arizona and a former director, David Carley.

State Attorney General Bruce Babbitt had confirmed that there had been investigations into the company for the banking department, and he confirmed Morgan, Charles Morgan, the victim, had been asked to testify about internal dealings at the company. Also after the murder, the impounded car...

He's in a panicked car, so the crime scene car, was broken into while in police possession, and his office was also ransacked. So, all of his stuff got done over. I don't know why it wasn't under tighter surveillance or whatever, these cops did not seem to care. They did not seem to do diligence. Well, see, that leads back into the conspiracies around it, because...

Jokes aside, I do think he was absolutely involved in some kind of greater working. If that was the business he was a part of, if that was the feds, if that was local police, who knows? But maybe it wasn't that the police were just doing a bad job. Maybe it was, you know, they...

were to some degree part of what was going on. Or at the very least, the people who were doing this to the car and stuff were professionals to some degree.

I definitely think I've, I don't have the quotes here, but Devereaux, the investigative journalist, I believe he had tracked down some of, you know, former police detectives or people working at that county's police department. And there were actually a lot of people that left after this case claiming, and they claimed that it was a,

you know a sketchy situation a sketchy case that made them kind of lose faith in the uh in the police department itself yeah and it may understandably yeah yeah i i definitely i definitely do think that um like this was a part of a criminal organization's hit on him and the criminal organization at the time had a fair bit of power perhaps over over the police department and

And that's why this was immediately ruled a suicide and they did not follow up on any kind of investigative work from what I could tell anyway. After that, you have the Bible passage mentioned here. Do you want me to read that?

Yeah, I thought, I honestly don't know what to make of it. I don't know how it ties into everything and I would like to hear your thoughts on it. Alright, so I'm going to read, I've got the KJV version pulled up because for one, it sounds cooler and it's also the reason I work off of. So, we mentioned a few

few times at this point, the Bible verse appears in the phone call, it appears in the confirmation with the police, and it appears on the $2 bill. So the actual structure of the Bible verse is Ecclesiastes chapter 12, when it says, Remember now thy creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh.

When thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them. While the sun or the light or the moon or the stars be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain, in the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble and the strong men shall bow themselves and the grinders cease because they are few and those that look out of the windows be darkened.

and the door shall be shut in the streets when the sound of the grinding is low and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird and all the daughters of music shall be brought low

also when they shall be afraid of that which is high and fears shall be in the way and the almond tree shall flourish and the grasshopper shall be a burden and desire shall fail because man goeth to his long home and the mourners go about the streets or ever the silver cord be loose or the golden bowl be broken

or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher, all is vanity. So the series of verses that are written there, it's written by Solomon, the son of King David. And he was writing that

during his kingship, and he's talking about a time when the kingdom will perish. He's talking about how it's important to remember the Creator because the day is coming when the sun shall set and the moon will rise and men will cast themselves into the street and the women will be mourning at the open windows. It's talking about a downfall of some system, of some governess.

To the point at the end, it says the preachers will say all is vanity, meaning nothing matters. It's all over. And it says that line in verse 7, Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Saying people are going to die, the earth's going to come to an end, everything's going to fall apart. So it's interesting that he could have used any code phrase or whatnot to indicate 1 through 8 if it was the numbering system that matters.

It's interesting that it revolves around a series of verses describing some system falling apart. Maybe he was referring to whatever this conspiracy was, whatever the money scheme was, it falling apart and people becoming thrown out. Indicating that it's a part, like a system is falling apart and also putting it on a banknote.

could indicate that it's the financial system falling apart or something like that. It absolutely could, because it talks there too about men losing their gold, losing them out in the streets because it's useless, like the collapse of everything. So it's interesting that what we've been assuming to this point is just a confirmation code, that it specifically relates to a collapse of some kind.

Yeah, that's interesting. The way I interpreted it immediately was, and this shows my level of analysis into biblical passages, I thought he was just saying goodbye to his family in a cryptic way. So...

Well, it says, you know, there's mourning. Yeah, I just took simple words that I could understand and extrapolated from there. But it's interesting to hear your analysis, and I definitely appreciate that. That's very interesting. So what do you think about it, Isaiah? How do you kind of...

uh what are you leaning towards i i interpret this because i do think my my legitimate belief with the story is that he was a part of some kind of organization or someone maybe he was a part of a money laundering scheme that the feds got privy to so he effectively became a snitch for it maybe to the feds um

Maybe it was something that federal agents were involved in, that he started to figure out he got scared of. Either way, I think he got in too deep with whatever the scheme was. We'll talk about that in a minute with the escrow stuff. But whatever it was, he went too far down the rabbit hole. And I think he's the one who came up with the Ecclesiastes thing. I think that makes sense why Green Eyes, on his behalf, told the family and didn't know how to pronounce it. I think...

that it was him who put it together. And I think this series of Bible verses is a bit of a middle finger, right? Because he's speaking to this organization who it seems like eventually killed him, but the Bible verses he used say one day, this is all going to fall apart. One day, uh,

The golden bowl will be broken. The cistern will be lost. One day this is all going to mean nothing. But I am in solace with myself. I'm comfortable with myself. My soul is in its own position. And in the end, that's all that's going to matter because one day you're going to lose. I think that's what he was doing with those persons. Taking back a little bit of power through it. I think it was a kickback. A last spit in the face to the people who were responsible. Yeah.

If he's talking about ruining a system, let's say, or the falling of a system, does that also add to the theory that he was actually an undercover agent for the federal government working to bring down this organization? Yeah.

I don't... Okay, so my... Go ahead, Charlie. I was going to say, or it could just mean, like, after they started hunting him, he's like, I could bring you down, this and that. It doesn't necessarily mean from the get-go he was undercover or anything. Right. Yeah, yeah. It could just be, like, later on as this started to, you know, flow out, then he says, like, I'm going to bring you down. But that, like...

With that verse where he's describing the collapse of it and everything, I don't think that he was a full-bore FBI agent. Because FBI agents who are in that deep would not tell people that they're FBI agents or whatever. I think he was probably contacted by the feds at his position as president of the escrow agency and was basically supposed to tip them off. Did that get him in trouble with the feds? Did that get him in trouble with the people he was supposed to tip off?

The fads off about. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you, I think you're right. I think so. I think he, he was like, um, you know, doing shady dealings, let's say money laundering with these companies, uh, these criminal organizations making a lot of money in the process for himself as well. And, um,

Then he was approached by the government afterwards or sometime after for that situation I talked about previously with the Blanco company or whatever, asked to testify about that. And word got out about that. It was meant to be under wraps, but word did get out about that potentially to these criminal organizations. And perhaps they thought that he was working too closely with the government and they kind of assumed that he was

or working on, you know, working undercover or whatever. And then that's when the first disappearance happened and they kind of took him aside and tried to scare him or spook him and stuff like that. Or, and then perhaps they weren't happy with him after that. And perhaps they believe that he had a document with all their names on it or something, or a ledger with, you know, financial information and stuff. And that's why, and that's why they eventually, you know, perform the hit and

and then raided his house and took the documents and stuff like that. I think that's a compelling theory, honestly. I think that's the main theory that most people will draw when connecting all the dots. I think that's the one that makes the most logical sense when you follow everything about the investigation. Which means it's wrong in your eyes immediately. Yeah, which means it's too easy. Which is why we need to reanalyze.

Back to the drawing board.

It's going to come down to the, it's going to come down to Ruth. I swear to God. It's Ruth. It's Ruth. Ruth killed himself. That's what happened. Ruth was green eyes. Maybe Ruth was the one picked up on CZ TV cameras. Oh man. What if the Ruth was like playing the long con and she was undercover the entire time as an FBI agent herself? Oh no. She worked for Bonko Internacional. Yeah. Oh man. It goes so deep. That's a cool name for like a spy, a

A spirited thing. Internacional. Alright, so we've got theories here. Do you want to get into that next, or do you want to talk about the Espro logistics? I was going to say Espro, probably, but let's save the theories for the end. I've been talking about theories the entire time. Sure, sure. We've only talked about the good ones, though. The ridiculous suicide stuff. Charlie is going to need to give a final theory for himself. I'll give my real...

I'll give my real theory instead of like the thought experiment. It's going to be your real theory is going to blow our socks away. It's going to be so fucking wild. I can't wait. You were just practicing. Yeah. Let's go with the escrow. Okay. Escrow. Escrow stuff first. Like an explanation of that, because I think it's important to understand the kind of dynamics there.

to kind of paint what kind of scenarios Chuck would have been potentially and likely involved with at the time in Arizona. So, um, if you don't know, an escrow agent is a neutral third party entity who holds onto the funds and assets related to a transaction until both parties have satisfied their contractual obligations and the sale can be closed on. So basically they're like a middleman, um,

you know, a financial middleman between two parties that want to trade money or assets, money and assets. So as Charles was an escrow agent in Tucson, is that how you pronounce it? Tucson. Tucson.

Tucson. Tucson. I got so much shit in the first episode because apparently I was pronouncing Maryland wrong. If anyone... It's Maryland, even though it's spelled Maryland. You are correct. I just pronounce it how it's written.

If anyone gets mad at Jackson for mispronouncing stuff, I'll personally skin them. Okay. Oh, nice. It's okay. No one, no one speak bad about my Jacksy poo. I would say to that though, you, you, uh, if you, if you're making fun of me for how I pronounce Maryland, which is how it's written, you come to Australia and try to pronounce some of the names over here. I'd like to see you try.

So, yeah, it was an interesting time, 1970s in Arizona. There were a lot of different kind of legislative and geocentric kind of things happening in the region at the time, which kind of created a perfect storm for a lot of money laundering to happen through escrow. And in his position at an escrow agency, he was extremely likely to be involved in this, honestly. So, I

I've written down a couple of things that made this a big deal. Number one, there were blind trust laws. Arizona's unique legal framework at the time was a prevalent factor in allowing kind of this money laundering to happen. The state allowed the establishment of blind trust accounts for real estate transactions. This meant that individuals could buy property anonymously. So you didn't even need to write your name down, basically. But the true owner's identity known only to the escrow agent was

So this is a giant loophole. This is like enormous for money laundering. This is like, this is basically it. Like this is the golden grail for money laundering.

You couldn't ask for a better situation. You can sell and trade property and no one has to know who you are except the escrow agent. Yeah. No one really needs to know the details. That's insane. Not even the property owner needs to know who you are. Just the escrow agent. That's wild.

I don't understand how that wasn't changed immediately. Also in the 1970s, possibly due to the blind trust laws, there was a massive organized crime influence in Arizona at the time. There was a significant rise in organized crime activities across the United States, but Arizona as well with its less stringent financial regulations.

presented an attractive opportunity for these groups. Organized crime syndicates, including a lot of mafia families, used the state's real estate market to launder proceeds from illegal activities such as drug trafficking and racketeering.

So basically what would happen was illegal money is first placed into the blind trust. And then the trust itself is used to buy real estate. And then over time, the property is sold or generates income from like rent and stuff. And that money that is generated from that property and stuff, which they don't have to have their names on, remember, because it's a blind trust, that money is now clean. It's clean money because it's been laundered through that process. You can have entire like,

super crime families running restaurants, hotels, housing, whatever. And the only person on earth who knows they're running it is the escrow agent is Chuck. Yeah. Which I mean, if, if,

If Chuck... The president of a huge escrow agency in Arizona. So we'll let you guess if he was implicated in anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's pretty likely that he was dealing in this kind of stuff. Yeah, and again, so he's dealing with dangerous individuals. He's working for them ostensibly as a money transfer agent. He knows information that no one else knows.

Which is likely why he was approached by federal agents and told to effectively become a whistleblower for anything he sees. Yep.

So there were a bunch of other, uh, reasons why it was super popular. Like this laundering tactic was popular. A lot of stuff like it's proximity to the Mexican border, the region, as well as stuff like rapid real estate development during the 1970s, creating just economic real estate boom. So there was a lot more opportunity, opportunity to launder. And of course there was just a lack of regulatory oversight basically at the time, which meant there were less federal and state oversight on financial transactions, uh,

particularly, interestingly enough, in real estate and escrow services. So this lack of stringent regulation allowed for the manipulation of escrow accounts and property purchases for those laundering purposes. So like I said at the beginning of this block, it was just a perfect storm. Chuck was in prime position to take advantage of this. And there's no doubt in my mind that he didn't do this. I full-heartedly believe that he was...

He was partaking in this scheme with criminals. Whether or not he decided to rat on them or give information to the federal government, I don't know. But what I do, I completely believe that he was working hard.

in some capacity with these criminal organizations to launder their money. I don't think there's any doubt really, right? At the end of the day, it doesn't even matter if he told the feds anything or not. It matters if they think he might have told the feds something. When you're holding that much dangerous information, the potential to put away these criminal mafias and these criminal masterminds, let's say, family members behind bars for life, I

yeah, they're going to order a hit on you if they think you're at all, you know, dishonest or, or likely to rat on them. So if they saw him, if they saw him talking to the feds at all, I mean, that's an immediate red flag. And keep in mind that note that the, that Don Davaro made that an attorney previously affiliated with Charles confirmed that he had testified in a secret state investigation.

So, like, he did, to some degree, like, actionably work with the FBI, not directly on his own case, but on tangential cases, which is playing incredibly close to fire if Charles was working in some of the rings we think he might have been. Yeah, exactly. And even, I mean, even if he's not...

profiting from this. He is still working. Like the scene at the time and the escrow, there would have been so many criminals, you know, taking advantages. So many dangerous individuals. He would have been interacting with members of organized crime groups and

potentially negotiating terms ensuring that they could stay anonymous and assisting them in other ways this is also important to outline we're not saying that Charles was like a bad person or did anything expressly evil but because the way the law was written at the time it let people get away with this

But it seems that Charles, even if he didn't work with them directly, he was definitely knowledgeable about a lot of stuff that was happening with escrow agencies around the time. He had to be. So he was at least related to it, if not working with them directly. And then shortly after he starts to do secret state investigations with the feds, he gets whacked off.

Yeah, it starts to paint a picture of what is, like Charlie said before, the most logical explanation for this. And you can disregard all of the clues that he left behind in his little Scooby-Doo situation, like all these written notes and stuff and weird phrases and biblical passages and such.

You can disregard all of that and just look at it for what we just said. He was involved, very likely involved in laundering with dangerous individuals. You do the math. It's pretty straightforward in that sense. What makes this all conspiratorial is those extra elements. And that's where you start to think, well, maybe he was whacked by the government. I don't know. That is a theory that he was an undercover agent and he had been...

I don't know, he went rogue or something so they had to tie loose ends. That's a theory that I've seen. So you get all these kind of different things with the coded messages and stuff and it gets messy quick when you bring those elements in.

Yeah, this is such a good case. Okay. It's so good. I was reading. I didn't mean that to be a mic drop moment or anything. No, that was good. That was good. It was dramatic. It added a lot to it. Do you want to go over, before getting into the theories, do you want to go over the additional circumstances stuff? Because I think that's really fascinating. Yeah, I was going to go over that before the theories. I think we'll end on the theories. So,

In 1990, this is an additional circumstance that, like Charlie said, I think is pretty pertinent to the case. So in 1990, shortly after the episode of Unsolved Mysteries that explored the Charles Morgan case aired, the body of a Doug Johnston, a 35-year-old who worked for a computer graphics company, was found in his car at his company's parking lot at roughly midnight in Phoenix, Arizona. I don't know how far away Phoenix is from Tucson. Um,

I mean, they're in the same state. Aren't they like three hours apart, Charlie? Something like that? I don't know enough about Arizona, but the way you keep pronouncing Tucson is like Carl Weiser with croissant. It's really horrible. I get so caught in my head about pronunciations that I just overthink it, I think. Or my mouth's not capable of it.

It's America, brother. It's like as simple as it gets. It's Tucson. Well, it's not because Maryland should be said Maryland instead of Maryland or whatever the fuck it is. Now you're just sounding stupid. Alright, that's too far. Not happening. Yeah, you went way too far. Alright, well at least I got Phoenix unless you pronounce it like Fawanix or something. No, it is Fawanix. Jackson said I'm tired of dealing with this.

He was found in the car in his company's parking lot at roughly midnight in Phoenix. He'd been shot in the back of the head in a similar way to Charles Morgan.

Authorities first believed that this death was a suicide because that's apparently their immediate go-to whenever someone's shot in the back of the head. So they immediately thought his death was a suicide, but there was no powder residue on his dominant hand. And more importantly, there was no gun found at the scene. So yeah, no shit. It wasn't a suicide. Like what the fuck? You don't understand. It's a vanishing gun. He shot himself in the back of the head and the gun despawned. Yeah.

like what the fuck why are they so like trigger happy with suicide so what he did is he said he said in his car and he tied the gun to a bunch of balloons and as it was going out the window he pulled the trigger like as it was floating away

Incredible work, really. So the reason why this is so interesting to this case is due to the fact that the investigative journalist that we've been quoting so much during this situation, or this case, that was hired by Unsolved Mysteries to document the Charles Morgan case and investigate it further, was his name, Devereaux, was living across the street from the parking lot where Doug's body was found, which is a bit too convenient for my taste because

There are many reasons as to why somebody would potentially want Devereux dead. He was a journalist who was also investigating mob figures in Phoenix at the time. And he was also still investigating the now called Charles Morgan case. Like he was working with Unsolved Mysteries, the TV show, when this episode aired. During that time period, by the way, within a few weeks of this murder, I believe. So he was working with them.

during that time. And then suddenly someone turns up dead in very similar circumstances just across the road from where he lived at the time. And what he believes and what some people believe is that the murder was a hit that wasn't executed properly. And Doug Johnston was mistakenly identified as Devereux. Like the hit was intended for Devereux. Because Doug Johnston had a very similar car

very similar living like he had the same apartment kind of thing. Dang! Oh gosh, I never considered it that way. Oh, that's so sad. So I think, yeah, what people are suggesting is that Doug was incorrectly assassinated when it was instead meant to be Devereux.

I think that makes a lot of sense since Doug Johnson as a computer graphics guy has no reason someone would want to shoot him in the back of the head. Yeah. I mean, there's too many, too many, you know, weird similarities there. Yeah. Cause it wasn't a robbery. It's not like Doug, Doug, Justin, like his car got broken into or anything. He just got shot and the killer walked off. Yeah. And Doug Johnson. So it's probably not a suicide as well. Yeah. Yeah.

And he so happens to live directly across the street from the lead investigator into the Charles Morgan stuff. Yeah. It's so it's too many coincidences there, right? Yeah, man. That's if that's true, that's so sad. Poor guy. I mean, definitely literally a computer guy, just a nerd. So what, what it, what it comes down to, what it comes down to then is if Doug, not Doug, sorry. If Devereux,

is, you know, a hitman is trying to assassinate him. What for? Is it for the Chuck case? Because he's investigating that and getting answers and, you know, piecing together potential mob affiliations in criminal underground activities, even 22 years ago at this point. Or was it due to like other, other, you know, cases that he was investigating at the time? Because he was investigating other cases at the time to do with mobs and stuff like that in the Phoenix area. Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know. Honestly, at some point it kind of becomes a, uh, like a Hydra's head, right? Like these are all different aspects of the same beast. So any part of it he's investigating will lead into other parts of it, not liking what he's doing. He's, he made a lot of enemies basically. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Uh, another, another part a year later, uh,

1991. We're in 1991 now. We've skipped ahead a year. Devereux was contacted by a writer from Washington, D.C. by the name of Danny Casolaro. They agreed to share information with one another about the case. However, before Devereux could share the information with Casolaro and in turn have information shared with him, Casolaro was also found dead with his wrist cut in a hotel bathroom.

His death was also ruled a suicide, but Devereux believes this was also a murder due to the fact that, according to Casolaro's brother, Casolaro himself was very squeamish and afraid of blood.

So, I mean, that one seems like... It's the third suicide in this whole case. At least that one wasn't a bullet to the back of the head and a mysterious gun vanish. It was in the bathtub wristlet, which... Because... The reason, I think, is because the people doing this realized that they can't keep getting away with the bullet to the back of the head thing. So...

wristlet and bathtub sure that that leans more into a suicide and i understand the police have to investigate you know each case as its own like yeah on its own that clearly is but this guy was on his way to give information it's not like that guy's gonna be like well you know actually i have a better idea or i don't know if they were like traveling to see each other but they were definitely communicating they were community planning to get it yeah yeah yeah yeah

Yeah, so it's strange that there's just so many people connected to this case and one way or another end up dead. He was very squeamish and afraid of blood. Interesting. I don't know what to make of it. I mean, that does...

I don't know enough about Castellara. There's not enough information out there to really determine if this was potentially a troubled individual and suicide is a potential aspect. That's not that well documented. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's hard to say, but what we can say is Devereux definitely believes it's not a suicide. And I don't really blame him when everyone he's talking to is ending up... Everyone kills themselves, yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's seeing a lot of...

A lot more than us in terms of people killing themselves under mysterious circumstances. So six months after Castellaro's death, Davro allegedly learned that there was a hit placed on him, but that Doug was accidentally killed as they had driven a similar car and lived in similar houses. Doug being the computer graphics designer from before.

um apparently he learned that there were apparently other people that wanted him dead he had learned this information from a cia official and an informant for israeli intelligence to this day the murders of charles morgan doug johnston and danny casolaro all remain unsolved so those are three murders that are well alleged murders let's say that are connected together in a weird a weird web almost a weird way um

It's strange. That all starts with Charles Morgan showing up at his house with handcuffs and hallucinogenics in his throat. That's how all this began. It's such an elaborate story of just constantly weaving directions. It's an interesting case.

What makes me really confused about that since you brought up his first disappearance is why would they even let him go in the first place? Like it doesn't. Well, because because he's the president of the escrow agency who's allowing them to launder money. Right. So the first time could have just been, hey, we got a good thing going. Knock it off or else. And then he doesn't knock it off. So that's when it's like, all right, reset. Start over.

Oh, yeah. So I guess if they kill him, what happens to the money up in the air at that point? I guess potentially they were worried about losing their income or their money. It would go to the company because the escrow agency would maintain the funds. So they would just need to be assured that whoever steps in will keep the deal going. Okay. But I definitely think that first case, if we're operating under the...

you know, the theory that we've been previously talking about is correct. Then I think that first, uh, that first disappearance would have been an intimate intimidation tactic to make sure that Charles Chuck stays in line and they're able to recover the money. And perhaps they worked for those few months to make sure that Chuck wasn't necessary in the future. And that's when they decided to perform the hit.

They tied up all their loose ends, per se, before they put a hit on him. Yeah, that's also possible that they never... I think maybe if you scare a guy and then let him go, then you want him to do something for you, typically, right? Otherwise, you just get him out of the way. So I think they were trying to maintain that relationship as far as like... We can still work this out if you play nice, and then he doesn't, and that's when they decide to kill him.

Yeah, I think so. I definitely think so. Charlie, do you want to give your final theory? I think we're in the theory segment of this show. The actual theory segment of this episode. You can give us a wacky one too, though. That'd be fun.

I'll try and come up with a wacky one. I think I got all the wacky ones out of my system. I think there's only like one real theory. There's... I'm very curious in like the entire recorded history of suicides, how many of them are to the back of the head and then also like the gun being displaced so far away. I have to imagine that it's like unfathomably rare as like a suicide method. What do you mean? It's happened two times in this one episode. Yeah.

Okay, so then my theory is that I think the pretty obvious conclusion most people will draw due to his position as the escrow agent, as well as like the rising rampant crime and money laundering, as well as like some of the investigation Don concluded that he may have actually been laundering money through like gold and platinum and all that. I think Charles Morgan was in too deep.

He then made that, you know, undercover testimony. Whoever he was working with caught wind of it, no longer could trust him, tried scaring him. It didn't work. They still didn't trust him. And then in an act of desperation, he tried to buy his way out. So he went to a meeting place, got himself killed. And now everyone that investigated it has been hunted down.

Is my theory, which is very concerning considering that was 22 years later that two people ended up dead from the case. So I don't still, uh, you know, operating 22 years after the initial cold case itself.

Yeah, and I remember in BuzzFeed Unsolved, the hosts were talking about how it could be bad for them. So they had to make the disclaimer that they're not investigating anymore, so don't worry about killing them. I think it's important we also mention that. Hey, we're not looking into it ourselves. I think it's important that we make it clear. Jackson and myself, not looking into it. But Charlie has been digging into this case for weeks and weeks. He's got names. He's got pinboards. Nothing fishy. It was all suicide. Charles Morgan was a maniac.

There's nothing deeper.

I think we just need to make it clear that anyone we don't like has been digging into this day in, day out. I personally don't care. I'm not looking into it. I got no skin in the game. I'm in Australia. You guys do whatever you want. Well, maybe they moved operations over there. They're going to take a plane. They'll be over there shortly. I think they could get away with disappearing me pretty easily over here, honestly. That's a scary thought. I'm not investigating you guys. It's fine.

I think, so I think what happened going by timeline is Charles Morgan was the president of an escrow agency, which this is just a known fact, not conspiratorial. Escrow agencies at the time, especially in the state, were using their platform as a way to money launder out to these illegal or otherwise illegal organizations, a way to clean money. Now, that

That doesn't mean that they themselves were criminals. Just the way the laws were built around the time, it was a popular loophole for criminal agencies. Which meaning Morgan, as the president of an escrow agency, would know about this. He gets contacted by the FBI to do some identification of cases tangential to him, which of course his partners, so to speak, don't like. So they kidnap him, they threaten him for a while, they drop him off handcuffed.

at his ankles and wrist with a hallucinogenic in the back of his throat, which is a pretty good sign of like, shut up, stop talking, right? A very literal sign of stop talking too.

So they let him go. He spends two months paranoid. Uh, he wears a bulletproof vest every day, drives his kids to school. And it seems during that time, he's trying to find ways to counteract it. I think what happened is he was probably still speaking with the feds during this time. Uh,

Rather than completely getting scared and telling them no, he maybe starts to tip them off. Maybe he starts seeing an FBI agent who's visiting them. Who knows? So in the meantime, he's trying to take proactive steps to stop that. He is meeting with this woman, Green Eyes and Money. Maybe she was a contact who was trying to help him out of the situation. He is making notes for himself on $2 bills. I think maybe...

What was written on the $2 bill, the numbering system, Ecclesiastes and all that. Like sure, Ecclesiastes may have been like a symbolic middle finger. But I think what that $2 bill did functionally is it was kind of a personal reference note for him. Maybe he had a ton of other notes hidden somewhere. Maybe he gave them to Green Eyes outlining who was responsible, what they had to do with it, code phrases or what have you. Maybe that's what the map had to do with. It was something personal to him.

So he gets in too deep. He dies before he dies.

He has green eyes to call his family to say he's okay, give the password. He's then found dead in a means that we can all agree is not a suicide. He was killed by these quote-unquote partners of his. Police ruled a suicide. Is that just because they're incompetent police? More than likely, but it could also be because these gangs have connections in high places and were able to divert what they wanted the official narrative to be towards what they want. But

Then from there, the green eyes calls the police to try to give some more information, maybe misleading, maybe because she can't directly come forward, but she wants, maybe she liked Morgan and she wanted the truth to get out there to some degree. Who knows? And then from there, the Davro starts to piece all this together. Someone across the street from him gets killed, maybe trying to kill Davro himself. The only hangup I have there is if they got it wrong the first time, why not try to kill him again? Maybe.

Maybe there's too much eyes on it at that point.

And it seems like it was this entire web of conspiracy behind Charles Morgan that in the end, sadly, seems to have gotten away with it. Yeah, it's definitely still cold. After that comment you made about...

this gang still looking out to get people maybe I shouldn't have pieced all of it together like that on the record just then but you know yours is far more logical than mine you're the bigger threat no no no I don't think you gave me the idea and I should also mention if I ever kill myself no I didn't and

Also, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just regurgitating the stuff they said. I'm not looking into this case anymore beyond this, and I really don't care. I just want to play it. Fuck it.

I'll take credit for this. I came up with all of what he just said. And also, if I die, if I commit suicide or whatever, that just proves me right. You sons of bitches out there. Everything I just read is off of a 14-page document that Jackson wrote. That is true. This is all from Jackson. You can check the logs. I'm proud of it. I'm proud of it.

Jackson, if you die from a conspiracy we covered in episode two, do you know how crazy that will go online? It's going to be fantastic. Charlie and I will be drying our tears with Benjamins. It will be fantastic. True. Anything for the podcast, boys. It was all Jackson. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I mean, realistically, my theory is yours. Like, I do believe that what you said in its entirety there is probably what went down. That came from you, that you told me to say. Yeah, I sent you the script for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I read all that, and it was Jackson. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think the only thing I would add, though, just to further incriminate myself, is that it is also alleged that Charles was keeping both of these... There were certain mob families at the time, the *** family and the ***.

Oh, he said the name! He said the name! Are you name dropping? Are you insane? Bro, dude, my camera battery died as you said the names. I'm not kidding. It straight up just died. Oh my gosh. Are you able to swap the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hold on, dude. That was insane. You go, I think the family's implicated. Badoom. What?

They're not around anymore, right? I would imagine they are, man. All the way until the 90s? Yeah, they're probably still around. Oh, look it up. Ah, it's fine. They won't come over here. Bro, I thought I was implicating myself. That was crazy.

That was crazy. I'll do anything. I'll be brave enough. I'll do it. Fuck it. I don't even think BuzzFeed Unsolved dropped their names, brother. I'm recording again. He just implicated names and people. We should wrap this one up. I didn't hear those names because my mic glitched out for a second. Oh, my bad. I don't know who he's talking to. Family, just in case you missed it. So it's alleged that Charles was helping both of those people. Yeah.

Just to put it back out there. He was helping them and he kept duplicate records of all the transactions, likely as a bargaining chip in case his business partners, the family, threatened him. Could this potentially have been stolen from the house during the fake FBI raid? That's my question. Was there a document with duplication, like a duplicate document, you know,

tying all of the transactions together that was then stolen perhaps perhaps not perhaps those two families that i mentioned are completely innocent and well um i have no idea what jackson's talking about he's going crazy uh but what i will say about unrelated documents that theoretically might exist that have nothing to do with those two names you just mentioned um those documents

might have gone missing either when he died. Maybe he had the stuff in his vehicle and it was taken by the people that killed him. Maybe whenever the two quote-unquote agents came to his house, which were probably people that were working in the mob.

Or they could have been people acting on behalf of the FBI, but I think they were mob people more than likely. And we know the FBI was lying about not knowing him because we know that he was testifying during cases at that time. But maybe they did it. I don't think they sent the agents to his house. So those were probably people with the mob. Maybe they got the documents then. Who knows? But what I will say is...

It, it, whatever degree this gang was involved in, uh, the criminals were involved in, it was at a degree that the police were somehow related. They had to be, uh, I don't like some details I can get away with, like his office being ransacked, his car being broken into that can happen without the police needing to know, but stuff about how quick they were willing to write it off as a suicide. Um,

If it was an organization this big that they were using escrow agencies and threatening the president of them to keep their funds in order, they absolutely had cops on payroll. There's no way they did that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, there would have been so much money moving around Arizona at that point through these organizations. They could have had anyone under their fingertips. Yeah. So I think we've got everything, though. I think we've covered everything. I think we've got all of our theories out there.

Yeah, like I said, I think that's the most logical. Charlie, did you have anything else to add?

Just that at the end of the day, I think it's a tragic case of suicide. It's just a really unfortunate set of circumstances surrounding it. It's really impossible to know. I think what's even more tragic is Jackson implicating two innocent families who had absolutely nothing to do with this. Yeah. I mean, really, I'm probably the safest person out of any of us because I directly named them. So if anything happens to me,

That's on them. Like, that's clearly them. Let's say this. Whatever the safest theory is, I subscribe to that one. That's the one I believe in. You pussies. Come on. Insult them. Be brave. No. They're not even around anymore. I doubt they're even around. You think you're so brave? Post your docs. Go ahead. Do it. Do it. Talk about it. You can meet me in my local park at sundown.

I'll be by myself facing a wall with no witnesses. I'll be wearing a bulletproof vest everywhere but my head. I'm going to be wearing a bulletproof vest with the hole cut out of the heart. Alright, so nothing else to add, Charlie? You're going into witness protection mode currently. Yeah, I think the official story is the correct one. Yeah.

such a pussy come on next week we're going to cover an Australian killing and we'll see how soon you are to talk about the Wallaby gang and the dingo attacks we should absolutely do an Australian one next and then we'll talk about how you came up with all of it yeah

Um, yeah, okay, so, I guess what it comes down to is we don't know what we're talking about, it's all up in the air, this is a cold case. We're just a bunch of stupid YouTubers, what do we know about? Yeah, I mean, there's so many possible theories here, who knows what's true and what's not.

Realistically, though, I am being kind of honest. There is no way to know anymore what is true and what isn't in this situation. There's just too many missing context pieces. We do have our best theories, but really, this is a cold case, and I think this is going to remain a cold case, sadly. I...

I think if we had the letter that he I think if we had the letter he wrote for his wife and whatever his personal notes were along with the $2 bill I think it would go somewhere I honestly think the people who killed him missed the $2 bill they maybe got other notes other stuff he had written I think that one got by them and if we had the rest I think we could put it together but there it's frustrating but there's no solid conclusions that can be drawn from what we have

Yep. Absolutely. I think there's just too many missing context pieces. I do think that that note was potentially like a book cipher of some kind to, which would be used in correlation with either a book or a letter, like the letter he had talked about to paint a more clear picture on things. But yeah, with those missing pieces, we just don't know. But I think we've done a pretty good job going over it. We spent about two hours talking about this case. I think we've gone through with a

you know, we've gone through pretty a nuanced take. We've gone over everything to the best of our ability. Don't you guys agree? I think so. I think we nailed it. Actually, I mean, we didn't know and we don't know what happened, but Jackson nailed it and he knows I nailed it. You know, I know what happened. Yeah.

Clearly. It's a good job. I actually probably will need to go into witness protection. I don't even think that exists over here. I'm fucked. I think they... Well, normally, whenever Americans go into witness protection, they go to Australia, so I guess they just drive you around the block and drop you off. Oh, yeah, they just take Jax into a different part of Australia. He moves across the street. Don't do that. I'll confuse myself. I won't know how to get home.

He literally lives the next apartment down. He's like, I'm a man off the grid. I've gone rogue. I have to live off the land. He's out at a grocery store gnawing on apples out of the line. It's like a normal fucking townhouse in the front yard, making a potato garden bed or something. He's built a little hut out front. They'll never find me here.

Foraging for berries. Yeah, so that's going to do it for this episode of The Red Thread. I hope you guys all enjoyed it. And I hope the wait was worth it. Because I think this is three weeks after the first episode. I think we're going to try to do it every second week. We'll try to do fortnights for now. And then we'll see how you guys are feeling after a few episodes. And maybe we'll discuss internally and...

We'll see what we can do from there. But yeah, I really appreciate you all listening to the show and enjoying it. Listen is a key word, by the way, we're on Spotify as well. Um, if you want to go follow us there and I'm working on iTunes, getting us up on iTunes and other platforms. So there might be links below to that. And also, uh, we've referenced this 14 page document incriminating different families, uh,

That will also be linked in the description below. So you're going to be able to go read through it. I should have mentioned this at the start, actually. But for each episode, I'll link the show notes down below as well. So you're able to go read them to whatever extent you want. Maybe it's more safe if you don't go read them, though. So just keep that in mind.

And just note clearly that Jackson is the author of that document and I haven't seen it until just now. Yes, it was only me. It was only me. Yeah, it was only him. He gets all the praise.

Thank you very much, you two, for joining me. I wanted to shout out Creepcast. Is it Creepcast or Creepycast? Yes, Creepcast. Creepcast, yeah, there we go. With Zazaya and Meat Canyon. I did watch a fair bit of it before we hopped in this recording. It's fantastic. You guys have such great chemistry, you two. It was very fun. I'm going to go finish it after this. So go check Creepcast out. I'll link it down below as well. It's got its own YouTube channel. You can go find it as well.

just watch it it's great and also Charlie you have a new D&D show to shout out I want you to use this time to shout that out as well

That's so wholesome. Yeah, it's called Skill Checked Show on YouTube. It's a wacky D&D campaign with a bunch of friends. Yeah, it's fantastic. I did watch a bit of the first episode and it seemed like you all had a lot of fun as well. So go check that out. That'll be linked below as well. You do it live or you premiere it live? No, it's brief. Yeah, it's brief. Premiere it live. Yeah, yeah. So that's at 8 p.m. on Wednesdays, right?

Yep. So you can go check that out at that time. So yeah, go check out Creepcast with Isaiah and go check out Skillcheck with Charlie as well as all their other content. And we've got Patreon, patreon.com slash the official podcast. You get the official podcast, you get the Red Thread as well as Criminally Stupid, all early and all great. Go check them out.

Thank you very much for joining us on this episode of The Red Thread. I appreciate you all being here and I hope this show continues to delight and entertain you all and I don't die mysteriously. I really do. Thank you all for joining. We'll see you next week. Thanks everyone. Bye-bye. Bye guys. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye.