209: Delphi Trial Updates, Teen Girl Dies in Walmart Oven, Son Kills Entire Family, Menendez Brothers Release & Abercrombie Sex Scandal
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We have got so much to talk about today. Oh gosh, I don't even know where to begin. So as a reminder, if you are brand new and you're checking out the podcast for the first time or maybe you listened to the Monday Deep Dive and you're here now, on Thursdays we do what's called Headline Highlights where we go through all of the breaking news and updates in the true crime world this week. So if you're new to the podcast, I hope you're enjoying it.

I'm sure you can imagine if you are a true crime watcher, follower, consumer, there is a lot happening this week. There are a lot of trials going on. There are a lot of brand new cases that have just, you know, hit the circuit. There are updates to cases that we've talked about. So we

We've got a lot to go over, but we're going to be talking about some new cases breaking. We're going to be talking about all of the updates that are happening right now in the Delphi trial. We are going to talk about the Menendez brothers. There's also been updates in the Lindsay Shiver case, which is...

a woman who hired a hitman allegedly to kill her husband, and she was in the Bahamas, then she was able to go home, now she's back in the Bahamas. I mean, I'll give you the whole breakdown when we get there, but we've got a lot to go over. Now let me just start really quick with the Menendez brother update, because a lot of you guys have been asking not only what's exactly going on with that, what are my thoughts on it, what do we think is going to happen here, and as you know, for the last two years, there has been this...

renewed interest in the case. And I'm going to just kind of say, honestly, from my perspective, what I've seen is I feel like Gen Z really took this case and started running with it about two, almost three years ago now. They were making different TikToks all about it, calling for their innocence, saying how they should be released, going into all of the abuse allegations, everything. And it really started picking up steam.

Then, just recently, last month, there was a docuseries or dramatization, I should say, that was released on Netflix that Ryan Murphy produced where it basically recounted the murders, the events leading up to them, the events following the murders, and...

just in a more dramatic kind of way. Then in tandem with that, like a week after, there was an actual documentary released on Netflix where we hear from the brothers and they're speaking out and they're sharing their truth. So it has definitely had a huge spotlight back on it in the recent years. And

Now, so much so, and so many people advocating for their release and for their innocence, that the DA took a look at it and spoke out. And just last week, on Thursday, October 24th, the LA County DA said that he will, in fact, recommend that a judge re-sentence Lyle and Eric Menendez.

He is suggesting that they be resentenced to life with the possibility of parole. However, because they were both younger than 26 years old when the murders took place, that means that if the judge grants this, they will be eligible for parole immediately based on how much time they've already served, which I believe is in the ballpark of 35 years.

But take a listen to just a couple of his remarks. I'm not going to play everything, but I want you to just hear directly from him what he had to say about it. They have been in prison for nearly 35 years. I believe that they have paid their debt to society, that the brothers were subjected to a tremendous amount of dysfunction in the home and molestation. I think there is also important to have some introspection today because I think that often people

for cultural reasons, we don't believe victims of sexual assault, whether they're women, whether they're men. I'm recommending that they be released because I believe that

The people that there were at age 19 and 21 is not the same people that we're seeing 35 years later. So while in jail, the brothers have stayed out of trouble. And according to the DA, they have, quote, been model prisoners by all accounts. The brother's attorney also has spoken out since all of this, you know, hit the circuit and says that he wants to try and reduce the murder charge to voluntary manslaughter.

So he's trying to get the brothers released as soon as possible, and so soon, in fact, that he's hoping to have them home by Thanksgiving. And if a judge does agree to the resentencing, in general, this process normally could take up to a year. However, if the charges are, in fact, reduced to voluntary manslaughter...

The brothers could be released much sooner. Now, what I find interesting about all of this is I have come across so many things on social media, on podcasts, of course, on the documentaries, where it feels like the mass majority is advocating for their release.

However, there of course are the people who don't believe that they should be released. And so I had done a poll over on my Instagram last week when the DA first, you know, made this announcement. And I said, what do you guys think? Do you think that they should be released or do you think that they should remain in prison? Was this premeditated callous murder, especially because...

A lot of people argue that there is no proof of the abuse allegations. There is a letter that they had found, but I don't believe the authenticity has been proven yet. There was testimony from the cousins and a couple other family members. However, some suggest that that testimony could be tainted because they have something to gain from it in terms of financial assets, all of these things. But anyway, so I put this poll up on Instagram, kind of just being like, so who really does believe they should be released and who doesn't? And I was...

very surprised that 30% said that they do not think that they should be released. One of the biggest comparisons that I've seen out there and that I've heard is, you know, if Gypsy Rose, who was convicted of participating in the murder of her mother, if she is released and can walk free, why can't these two boys who are now men...

who have served 35 years, who were allegedly sexually and physically abused at the hands of both of their parents. And if she can basically get out and have a reason and justification for murdering her mother and be free now when she hasn't even served a fraction of what they have served, why can't they? That's the argument that I see out there more times than not.

But then, of course, the argument on the flip side is this was premeditated. Not only could they have chosen not to commit murder, but the fact that when the shooting occurred, one of the boys went out, reloaded their gun, came back in, giving them opportunity to change their minds, to call for help, to get aid for their mother, and they chose not to.

put in with that the massive spending spree that they went on. I believe it was to the tune of $700,000 immediately following the murders. A lot of people, and this isn't, I'm just saying both sides, guys. I'm not telling you where I'm at. I'm just saying both sides. But a lot of people are saying that, you know, there was clear premeditation. There was opportunity to stop and change their mind. There was then a motive in terms of the financial spending immediately following. They deserve to be where they are for life.

However, on the other side, there are of course those allegations of all of the abuse, the suffering, the testimony, which I spoke with a forensic psychologist during one of my live tour episodes about this case and said, you know, from your experience working so closely with so many survivors and victims, did the testimony you saw in the original court trial look authentic to you? Is that in line with the reactions and the emotions that you see in

other survivors and victims, not that everybody acts the same, but you know, just like an underlying, you know, similarity. And she said 100% without a doubt. She said that there's absolutely no question in her mind that they were abused, especially based on their testimony.

So I don't know. I'm curious to know where you guys sit with this. I'm sure we will have an answer in the next few weeks as to what this will look like if they will be resentenced or if the charges will be reduced and they will be out sooner, but they're hoping that they could be released as soon as Thanksgiving. So curious to know what you guys think about this.

Now, I want to go into a new case that is breaking, and it is truly terrifying. It is disgusting. It is just, it's truly, truly awful, okay? And I wanted to do a deep dive into this case as a full episode because there's so much to unpack.

but unfortunately right now there really aren't a ton of details out there. So a deep dive certainly is going to come. I'm just trying to gather more information. I'm trying to do all my FOIAs, trying to get all the information, and then I will deliver it. But let me just give you the breakdown of what's going on. So on Saturday night, October 19th, an employee of a Walmart was found cooked

inside a walk-in oven. This was inside a Walmart location in Canada. The victim was 19-year-old Gorsimran Kaur. Now, Gorsimran recently moved to Canada with her mother, and the two of them both worked at the Walmart in Nova Scotia. Both were working that day on October 19th, but the mom started becoming worried after not seeing her daughter for a couple of hours during the shift.

Her mother also couldn't reach her by phone, so she said that this was extremely odd because her daughter usually always had her phone on her during her shifts. So after asking around and asking other employees where her daughter was, but still, you know, getting no answers, the mother, we don't know exactly how, but she eventually found her daughter in the bakery department, specifically in the bakery department's walk-in oven. And like I said, she had essentially been...

been cooked alive inside that oven. Now, first of all, let me just say, I can't even begin to imagine how terrifying that would have been as her mother to be frantically looking for her up and down the aisles, trying to figure out where she is. You both work there. You're both employees there. You know your daughter knows the floor plan of that store like the back of her hand, not being able to find her, then going into an oven, a walk-in oven, and finding your 19-year-old daughter literally cooked alive.

alive. It is so haunting to think about. Now, what's weird about all of this, and what I'm still trying to get clarity on, is the investigators have yet to say how she became locked inside that oven. They also have yet to say whether foul play was involved.

However, many people are speculating that somebody did intentionally lock her inside of that oven. But here's what's weird about that. The oven is locked from the inside. And it seems unlikely that she would get trapped in there herself, right? But also if it's locked from the inside, how does that happen? It is very, very bizarre. So we are trying to do a deep dive into this and figure out what the heck is going on here because honestly,

One, who just locks somebody in an oven and cooks them alive? Was there foul play? There's just so many questions. So it's still very, very fresh, but we are looking into it and I will definitely circle back with an update. Now, moving over to Washington, and unfortunately this is another very harrowing case, but in the early morning hours of October 21st, an 11-year-old little girl from Fall City, Washington, woke up in the dead of night to the sounds of gunshots.

When she left her bedroom to investigate and see what was going on, she found her father, Mark, and her nine-year-old brother just bloody and dead right there on the floor in the hallway of their home. So this 11-year-old little girl then saw her seven-year-old little sister leave her bedroom before another gunshot went off, and then that seven-year-old fell to the floor. The 11-year-old girl who saw all of this and witnessed all of this was then shot in the hand and the neck.

However, she did not die. And this girl, not only after getting shot and not dying, she laid there and recognized who the shooter was. It was her 15-year-old older brother. She also recognized the gun that he was using as their father's Glock handgun, which he knew where he apparently kept it and the code, and I'll talk about more of that in a minute.

So she's laying there after being shot in the hand and the neck, and she silently just watches as her brother went one by one to the bodies of her family members. And he checked each one, the father, the brother, the younger sister, all to see if they were alive.

Then when it was her turn, when he was approaching her to check if she was still alive, she played dead. She just laid there extremely still. She held her breath, just pretending to be dead herself. And she did a good job of it because he believed her. Her brother thought that she was dead and then he left.

As he was walking away, she also heard him talking on the phone. And I'm going to talk more about this call in a minute. But as he was walking away and talking on the phone, she escaped through a fire window in her room and she ran to a neighbor's house. So once she was there, they called 911, which was just after 5 a.m., and they reported the shooting.

However, going back to that phone call that I mentioned, the one where she saw her brother talking on the phone, the shooter, as he was walking away, seven minutes before the neighbors had called 911, 911 had received a phone call from that 15-year-old brother himself. So as he was walking away, he was calling 911. And in this call, he was out of breath and he was asking them for help.

He told the 911 operator that he was hiding in his bathroom because his 13-year-old brother just killed his entire family and then committed suicide. He also told the operator that the previous night, his 13-year-old brother had been caught watching porn and he was very worried about getting in trouble.

almost trying to indicate that that's the reason for this mass murder. However, when the police arrived at the home, this 15-year-old was the one who was arrested and ultimately charged with five counts of aggravated murder and one count of attempted murder.

He thought that he had killed his entire family, but his sister was still alive and she witnessed everything. When the officers arrived and searched the house, they found the bodies of her dad, Mark, and her seven-year-old little sister in the hallway. They also found the bodies of her mother, Sarah, and her 13-year-old brother elsewhere in the house.

The gun was in fact lying on the 13-year-old brother's chest, again insinuating and signaling that he not only committed this horrible murder, but then turned the gun on himself. However, the blood spatter at the scene was not consistent with him shooting himself. Her dad Mark had been shot twice, and her mom Sarah had been shot four times.

The surviving 11-year-old later told the investigators that her 15-year-old brother had recently been in a lot of trouble at school for failing multiple tests.

She also said that he was the only one who knew the combination to the lockbox where the father kept the gun. Investigators have stated that this 15-year-old little boy purposefully staged the scene, all to put the blame on his younger brother. So currently, he is still in police custody, and we currently don't know if he will be tried as an adult or not, but his younger sister, who survived, has since been released from the hospital, where she received treatment for her wounds to her hand and her neck.

Now, as people are wondering, like, why would this happen? How could this happen? How did this go undetected? Well, the family was homeschooled and very involved in their community.

Now generally speaking, public schools have systems that aid in diagnosing children with disorders, and some people are speculating that this boy, this 15-year-old boy, this teen's defense might actually argue that he has ADHD or is autistic, and that it went undiagnosed for years due to the fact that he was homeschooled, saying that both autism and ADHD can lead to impulse control issues.

So with that, people are speculating that the defense will argue that the teen boy acted impulsively and didn't think his actions through when he committed these murders, that it was just an impulse decision, that he was just upset because he kept getting in trouble at school, and that, you know, he impulsively killed his entire family, tried to kill his sister, and then blamed it on his younger brother. But it is just absolutely heartbreaking and horrific because when you step back for a moment,

and think about the fact that not only did this 15-year-old boy kill his entire family, but his 11-year-old sister witnessed it. She watched the murders. She was smart enough and had the wherewithal to play dead so that she wouldn't be killed.

But now that she did survive, what is she surviving to? She has no parents, no siblings. The one surviving sibling is the one who murdered the rest of her family. How do you reconcile that, especially as an 11-year-old girl? How do you even begin to come to terms with that and work through that kind of trauma? It's...

incredibly heartbreaking. Now I want to briefly touch on this whole Abercrombie and Fitch mess. I'm not going to do a whole deep dive. The news is out there, but I do want to touch on it and give you a recap a little bit because even when I first saw the headlines, I didn't realize that it went as deep as it does. But Mike Jeffries, who was the CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch for more than 20 years, has been arrested.

On Tuesday, October 22nd, he was arrested in West Palm Beach, Florida as part of a federal investigation into a sex trafficking and interstate prostitution case. His romantic partner, Matthew Smith, and another man named James Jacobson were also arrested. They

They were charged with one count of sex trafficking and 15 counts of interstate prostitution. The prosecution has alleged that Mike and Matthew spent millions and millions of dollars to host, quote, sex events from 2008 to 2015.

They paid for dozens of men to travel and attend these events, and they also say that they used a, quote, full-service security company that oversaw the nondisclosure agreements, conducted background checks, and surveilled witnesses, among other things. Now, the nondisclosure agreements prevented the victims and witnesses from disclosing any information about these, quote, sex events or from receiving any help for themselves afterwards.

And I just got to say, what is with the sex events, the freak offs, all of the things? It is...

So beyond weird, especially when you learn more about these sex events. James Jacobson would allegedly hold tryouts at these events for various men before then choosing a select few and flying them all around the world to attend the major sex events. Several men, many male models, have also come forward with allegations against this group of three men.

They claimed that money and the potential to receive a high-paying job were both used as leverage to get them to attend these events and to further perform sex acts at Mike's personal home in the Hamptons. And these acts that they were forced and groomed and, you know, encouraged to participate in were all described as, quote, violent and exploitative.

Now, Mike has been in a lot of trouble in the past. Back in 2003, Black, Latino, and Asian American employees actually sued him and the company for, quote, sidelining them. In 2006, Mike was also accused of making Abercrombie & Fitch for a certain type of person, not inclusive.

And in an interview, he actually said, quote, That's why we hire good-looking people in our stores, because good-looking people attract other good-looking people. And we want to market to cool, good-looking people. We don't market to anyone other than that.

In 2013, he claimed that that quote had all been taken out of context. However, in 2014, he left the company. He has since pled not guilty to the sex trafficking charges, and even though he's no longer associated with the brand,

Abercrombie & Fitch did release a statement where they said, "...as we shared when the accusations were first made public in October of 2023, we are appalled and disgusted by the alleged behavior of Mr. Jeffries, whose employment with Abercrombie & Fitch ended nearly 10 years ago. For close to a decade, we have successfully transformed our brands and culture into the values-driven organization that we are today."

We have zero tolerance for abuse, for harassment, or for discrimination of any kind.

Which I gotta say, that statement isn't all too surprising or shocking to me. I think they are probably trying to distance themselves from him as much as possible. It's also my belief, and I'd have to look into it further, that when he left the company in 2014, that was probably a forced resignation where he got, you know, a pretty sweet penny for doing so. But again, that's just my opinion. I could be totally wrong.

Now I want to talk with you all about the Delphi trial updates and what's going on with Lindsay Shiver and her case. Also this new update in a Brazilian au pair who was in a double murder that we talked about on this channel. So these are some pretty interesting and heavy cases and I want to talk all about them. So first I'm going to go grab a drink of water. We're going to take a quick break and then I will be right back.

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Okay, so a while back, I talked about this case of this Brazilian au pair who worked for this couple. Then one day she was home and I'll have to go back and get all the exact logistics. But basically like there ended up being a shooting. The wife died, but then it was suspected that the husband and the au pair who was just like, you know, I think it's just a fancy word for nanny, but that they had kind of worked together to do this so that they could be together.

That was the speculation anyway for months, but there was really no proof of that. It was just, you know, people who followed the case being like, oh, no, this seems shady. Here's what I think really happened. But now there has been a new development in this murder case. It's the murder case of Christine Banfield and Joseph Ryan. You heard that right. It's a double murder case.

So it happened last year in Herndon, Virginia. And let me break down exactly what had happened. But Christine's husband, Brendan, and their nanny, Au Pair Juliana, said that they had shot a male intruder who had stabbed Christine to death.

an intruder who was apparently there for like kinky sex, for a kinky sex meetup that had gone horribly wrong. However, their stories were very confusing, and the timeline of the two 911 calls that they made just did not add up. So ultimately, Juliana was charged first last year. She was charged for shooting Joseph, the alleged intruder, and Brendan, the husband, was then finally charged for both murders last month.

Well, just on Tuesday of this week, Juliana the nanny took a plea deal. Prosecutors are alleging that Juliana Perez Magaliz was having an affair with the father of the children that she was caring for. They say that she and Brendan Banfield conspired to kill Banfield's wife, Christine, and a male friend, Joseph Ryan, last year.

It is unclear if she's gonna testify, but one could opine that the au pair likely will testify as part of this deal. No cameras were allowed for the plea dealing, but the prosecutor did speak out. Juliana Perez Magajas pled guilty to manslaughter for shooting and killing Joseph Ryan on the morning of February 24th, 2023.

Today's agreement marks a significant step forward in this case, and it is an important development in our pursuit of justice for the victims and their families. Much of the information that led to this agreement cannot be made public at this time due to the upcoming criminal trial against the other defendant in this matter.

Now, this case has a lot of twists and turns. The 911 calls felt very weird. Like I said, a lot of people suggested, and of course now by these charges, it indicates that the two of them were involved, that they had a sexual relationship and a romantic relationship, and then they tried to facilitate the murder of his wife. I think there's allegations, too, that they're the ones who put this ad up for this guy to come and pretend that he was raping her as though it was some sort of fetish or kinky thing and that Christine knew about it when in reality she didn't. It's a very convoluted case.

But if you want to hear the whole thing, you can check it out. I will link it below. I believe we did it as an exclusive ad-free bonus episode, and it was released this past July. So I'm going to link it in the show notes, and you can either try the subscription for free and listen and then cancel, or right now for the next two days, there's a 40% discount on our yearly subscription where you get free bonus episodes that are ad-free every single week. So it

Right now, you would unlock about 52 extra bonus episodes, all ad-free. You haven't heard before because they're exclusive to the subscriber thing. But anyway, I'll put that link in the show notes below. Now let's talk about Lindsay Shiver, and then we're going to talk about Delphi. So in July of 2023, Lindsay Shiver, along with her romantic partner Bethel—

and also an alleged hitman named Farron, were all arrested for trying to kill Lindsay's estranged husband, who happened to be an ex-NFL player. His name is Robert Shiver. Lindsay and Robert had been married for 13 years. However, they were going through the process of getting divorced at the time of the crime.

Robert had accused Lindsay of having an affair, and Lindsay accused Robert of, quote, physical and mental cruel treatment. The pair owned a multi-million dollar home in Georgia and also a home in the Bahamas, which is where Lindsay met her new guy, Bethel, the man, you know, that she was having an affair with.

So on July 16, 2023, Lindsay called 911 on Robber after he was refusing to let her use their private jet to travel to the Bahamas to visit Bethel. That same day, when all of this went down, she sent a text to Farron, the alleged hitman, with the words, Killed.

kill him. So the three of them were arrested five days later in the Bahamas, and they were placed in jail there. However, the judge eventually released Lindsay on bail and allowed her to travel back to the United States to be with her family in Georgia. The other two men were also released on bail. But now, Lindsay and her boyfriend are back in jail in the Bahamas.

because she was allowed to go back to the United States, but on very strict conditions. One of those conditions was that she or her boyfriend were not allowed to appear in the media pre-trial. But they didn't listen, and Lindsay and Bethel both appeared in an interview that aired on Inside Edition and Good Morning America.

Now, the murder for hire case that has been playing out in the Bahamas. An American mom involved in a nasty divorce is accused of trying to have her husband killed by a hitman. Today, her lover, who is also accused of being involved in the murder plot, is speaking exclusively to our Les Trent.

She's the former beauty queen accused of plotting to kill her wealthy husband. Now her lover, who faces charges of conspiring with her to commit murder, is breaking his silence to inside addition. Adrian Bethel and Lindsay Shiver acknowledge they were having an affair while Lindsay was married to estranged husband Robert. People have been taking me for a...

thieving, murdering homewrecker so far. So I really don't like that. The only way that I'm going to be able to clear it up is in court. I spoke with the 29-year-old bartender shortly after he and Lindsey Shiver appeared in a Bahamian court on a conspiracy charge. We're hopeful. You're hopeful? Yes. I think we're going to be fine just when

When it's going to finally happen is what's scary. Bethel says his relationship with 37-year-old Lindsey was no secret. They met in the Bahamas where the Shivers, who live in Georgia, have a vacation house. When we started dating, she was legally separated from Robert. It's like we weren't hiding anything.

This police body cam video was taken the day the Shivers were supposed to leave on vacation. Cops in Georgia were called to settle a domestic dispute. You can hear Robert Shiver referencing his wife's relationship. And when we land, she's going to go...

- To her boyfriend. - Elsewhere. - Authorities say Lindsay sent a text saying, "Kill him." But Bethel tells me the text is being taken out of context. He says Lindsay sent it because she believed her husband had been in a bar and not taking care of their three children. - That was like out of anger and frustration and like a figure of speech. And so she was like mad and she was like, "Kill him." You know?

That might not hold up in court that well. Bethel says the prosecution's case is weak. That's what they got. They're running with it for now. Bethel, Lindsay and the alleged hitman for hire have pleaded not guilty to conspiracy to murder. Bethel showed me the ankle monitor he has to wear. Are you allowed to leave the island?

Um, with permission. Bethel says he and Lindsay are still seeing each other. Do you ever regret getting involved with Lindsay? No, no. I mean, she's a great woman and a good mother. The judge declared that this interview was a violation of their bond conditions. And Lindsay was also, you know, a two-for-one deal here because she was also supposed to be living with her family in Alabama, but her ankle monitor indicated that she had moved without informing the courts, which was also a violation of her bond conditions.

So the judge declared that, quote,

The judge added that the decision was also meant to take Lindsay, quote, out of harm's way because apparently a different boyfriend in Alabama tried to, quote, choke and suffocate her with a pillow. Which, I gotta ask, how many boyfriends does this woman have? Like, this is so, so crazy. And to my understanding, the facilities in the Bahamas is not good.

Like, not a lot of warm running water. I believe they get maybe one meal per day, and it's not very good. So why on earth, if she was granted bail to go back to the United States, to be with her family, to be waiting until trial, why would you risk it by going on a media campaign, by moving without giving a change of address? Like, why risk it? Because now you're going to be locked up in this facility in the Bahamas. Why?

with really poor conditions, when you could have just played by the rules. But we'll see what happens. Now let's talk Delphi. And let me catch my breath, because we have got so much to talk about. So let me start with this. The trial for Richard Allen, the man accused of killing the two teen girls in Delphi, Indiana, is well underway. The Delphi trial has been making major headlines. And to give a quick recap...

14-year-old Libby German and 13-year-old Abby Williams went missing back on February 13, 2017 near a hiking trail in Delphi, Indiana. They had a no school day. I can't remember if it was a snow day or if it was just a weather day. I think it, I can't remember exactly which, but they had decided to go hiking. They went on top of this beautiful bridge that everybody walks through. It's a pretty popular area, but then when they were supposed to be picked up that afternoon, nobody could find them.

The bodies of the two teen girls were eventually found, and their deaths were ruled as a homicide. And I have full episode recaps of this case, which I will also link in the show notes for you, because it is pretty complex. But the short version is that for years, investigators were searching for answers regarding the nature of the teens' deaths.

That is until 2022, when 52-year-old Richard Allen was arrested and charged with two counts of murder and two counts of kidnapping, all related to the teen girl's deaths.

So during the first week of testimony during the trial, we learned that Richard Allen had actually reached out to law enforcement when the girls first went missing. He told them that he had in fact been in the area that the girls were in on the day that they disappeared. Richard also talked to a conservation officer on February 16th, 2017. This was three days after the murders, and he talked with them in a grocery store parking lot.

The conservation officer worked for the Indiana Department of Natural Resources, but they were helping law enforcement officers follow up on various leads related to the murders. Richard declined the officer's request to meet at Richard's home, but Richard told the officer that he was at the hiking trail on February 13th.

Specifically, he said that he was there between 1.30 p.m. and 3.30 p.m. He also said that he passed the two girls as he was walking. Now, this conversation that he had in this parking lot only lasted about 10 minutes.

The conservation officer kept notes about the conversation and submitted his notes to investigators, but nothing happened regarding Richard for the next five years. Then in 2022, years later, a volunteer who was helping with the investigation discovered the notes that were taken as they were searching through thousands of tips that were sent to law enforcement. So that discovery eventually led to Richard's arrest that same year, which I just...

I just have to say, what if there wasn't a volunteer helping with the investigation, going through all of those tips? What if a volunteer never found those notes about that conversation? Would Richard have ever been arrested? I don't know. Now, another teenager who was also walking the trail on the day that the girls disappeared testified.

She said that she saw a man while she was on her walk, and she testified that he was way overdressed for the weather. He was wearing a hat, a mask, and dark clothing. She says she waved as they passed each other, but he didn't react to her. Now, a big thing about this case is that before the girls were killed, one of them posted a picture on their Snapchat.

and in this photo, an unidentified man is seen walking near them. So this teenager who was testifying at the trial testified that when she saw the Snapchat picture, she immediately knew that it was the same man that she had passed while walking. The lead detective on the case also testified that

He said that Richard somehow fell through the cracks in all of this, but that after they found out about that interview with Richard, the one that took place, you know, three days after the murder, they searched his home and found a gun that matched the bullets that were found near the girl's bodies. This discovery and the eyewitnesses claiming they saw Richard in the area is what led to Richard's arrest.

This Monday, a bloodstain expert also testified, and they said that after Libby's throat was cut, her body was likely dragged to the area where she was eventually found. However, they believe that Abby was not moved, and that she was injured in the area where she was eventually found.

However, they do think that Abby was restrained or unconscious as she didn't have any blood on her hands, and typically conscious people usually will touch their injuries after they're inflicted, and she didn't have any blood on her hands. A DNA expert also testified and said that no evidence at the scene linked Richard to these murders.

An interview from October of 2022 between Richard and the police detectives was then played in the courtroom, and in this interview, Richard denied around 25 times having anything to do with the murders. He said he did not have a gun when he was walking on the trail. He said he had never hunted in the area. He also could not explain why a bullet matching his gun was even found there.

And as the interview continued and went on, Richard started becoming more quiet as he started feeling like he was their main lead. And he says he did that because he didn't want to become the police's, quote, fall guy. So Richard denies and continues to deny any involvement with the two girls' murders. His legal team is arguing that the killings may have been some part of ritual sacrifice.

saying that a man who was, quote, covered in mud and blood was also seen in the area where the girl's bodies were found. And this is a thought and a defense strategy and a theory that has been going on for years now, especially due to different branches and sticks and the placement where they were with the girl's bodies, where people believe that, and I think there was even blood on the trees where they were saying it was written in like runes or something or hieroglyphics. I

I can't remember exactly. I apologize. But I will link the deep dive. But my point is that this has been a theory for quite some time. What people are suggesting who say that Richard did not have anything to do with this, they're saying that it was a pagan cult who practices Odinism.

And again, it's kind of a, it's a theory, but it's kind of a conspiracy. So do with it what you want. But I will link the deep dive where we kind of go through all that. But a lot of people who believe in Richard's innocence are saying that he was the fall guy, especially since he admitted so quickly after the murders to being there at the scene of the crime that he wasn't trying to hide anything or cover anything up. However, that doesn't really explain how the bullets got there. That would have had to be a pretty elaborate story.

setup and frame job in my opinion but anyway people are saying that no this goes way deeper it's powerful people involved it's a pagan cult that practices odinism they're the ones responsible that's why there were runes and branches and all those things there and Richard even I believe went on a hunger strike at one point because he was saying he was innocent so

It's going to be really interesting to see how this trial pans out. I will definitely keep you guys updated. I heard you in my last episode where I asked for your feedback if you want more trial recaps, and you said yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I will make sure to keep you guys updated, and I am currently in the process of trying to figure out a more formal way where I can give you feedback

total trial recap coverage as they're happening almost separately. So stay tuned for that. Gotta still think it through a little bit. But that's where we are for this week. So I hope you all have a very safe Halloween. If you want to hear any of the deep dives on the cases that I talked about today or hear about that nanny murder

rape situation case. I will link all of that in the show notes. As always, thank you guys so much for listening and for your support. If you have an extra 30 seconds, let me know on Spotify Q&A or through the Apple review section what you want to hear more of, what you want me to dive into next.

That's the best way for me to see your feedback. And also, please take a moment to leave a five-star rating if you enjoy this podcast. It is a free way to support it. All right, thank you guys so much. I will be back with you on the mic first thing Monday morning with an all-new deep dive of a case, but we do have a bonus episode dropping tomorrow. It is completely ad-free. It's only on the podcast. It's a case that involves a single mother...

OnlyFans, the porn industry, and a dismembered body that was stored in a freezer for a long time. It's an absolutely brutal murder that will make you ask, how can one person do something so horrific to another human being when, you know, they supposedly love them? And it's also a story where the victim's OnlyFans account actually helps solve the case.

So you can get access to that either right here on Apple Podcasts through the subscription or through Patreon if you don't have Apple Podcasts. And on Patreon, we also give a lot more bonus content like videos, giveaways, things like that, which is patreon.com slash Annie Elise. Again, it'll all be linked in the show notes. All right, be safe tonight if you're going out for Halloween. Do not drink and drive. Call an Uber. Stay safe. Double check all your candy. And I will talk with you again very soon. All right. Thanks, guys. Bye.