149: TRIAL BOMBSHELL: Chad Daybell's Mom & "Dark" Sister-in-Law Testify
46:19 Share

Dental One associates redefine what it means to visit the dentist. Get top quality personalized support from committed experts that prioritize the well-being and satisfaction of you and your family. Care is centered on a highly personalized treatment plan backed by the trust and support of long-lasting relationships. Find out how you can make an appointment for a custom smile design experience by visiting doa-seriousxm.com.

Hey true crime besties, welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly.

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back, guys, to an all-new episode of Serialistly with Annie Elise, Chad Daybell, Trial Edition. Okay, guys, we're gonna do this episode a little bit differently than we've done the past. We are gonna have Lindsay, our courtroom correspondent, jump on here and share what's been going down, but I also want to give you a rundown of what's gone down so far this week, too, because...

This week, I don't even know where to begin. It is probably one of the crazier weeks so far in the trial. And probably the absolute biggest bombshell of the week was that Chad Daybell's mom testified. Yes, you heard that right. Chad's mother, Sheila Daybell, testified. Guys, it is wild.

Now, throughout the past few years, we haven't really heard much from any of Chad's extended family other than his adult children, and they were on that one Dateline episode. We also heard from his sister-in-law, Heather, but Chad's parents have remained completely silent in all of this, and truthfully, I don't really blame them because, I mean, what the hell can you say when your son is mother effing Chad Daybell? No offense, but I just...

really hate that creep and I've said it before but God bless Lindsay's heart for looking at his face all day in the courtroom because I couldn't do it he has not to shame anybody I'm not trying to like shame on his looks but I'm gonna shame on his looks like something about his Peter Griffin claymation face just irks me probably because I think he's a cold-blooded murderer but I digress so

With all that said, guys, you definitely are not going to want to miss this recap because this week was insane. And personally, I'm hoping that it was the absolute worst week of Chad's life. So I'm not only going to give you the breakdown of what went down, but like I said, we're going to be talking to Lindsay who was there all week and watched all of this go down.

Now, first, I want to start with the FBI cast specialist, Nick Balance. He testified about the phone ping locations of Chad and Alex Cox on the day that it's believed that the children were put in Chad's backyard. And let me tell you, it did not look good for buddy boy Chad. So on September 9th, one day after Tylee was last known to be alive, which was, remember, determined by that picture of her at Yellowstone from Lori's iCloud account from 7.20 a.m. to 8.40 a.m., Chad was home.

Now, during this entire time period, he was texting back and forth with Lori. Then, at 8.03 a.m., Chad called Lori. Eight minutes later, Chad called Alex, and they talked on the phone for approximately three minutes.

Then, about 30 minutes later, Alex's phone location shows that he was at his condo, and then he later arrived at Chad's house. Then, at 9.22 a.m., Alex was at the side gate of Chad's property, and I say side gate because there were gates that would open to let vehicles drive into the backyard without going through the driveway or even the front of the house. But anyways, at 10.57 a.m., Alex was near where Tylee's remains were found.

And then during this whole time between when Alex arrived at Chad's and when Alex was near where Tylee's remains were found, there were multiple text messages between Chad and Lori just going back and forth, flying back and forth.

Now, going back to Alex, at 11.42 a.m., his phone showed that he was leaving Chad's property, all while Chad is still at home. Then, three minutes after Alex left, Chad once again called Lori. And then, to top it all off, around this exact same time, Alex had an outgoing call to Lori, too.

So clearly, it's like the three of them talking back and forth about what was happening, and probably about Tylee, and they're all in cahoots with each other. Next, the FBI agent went on to talk about September 23rd, when it's believed that JJ was buried on Chad's property. From 3.59 a.m. to 8.35 a.m., Chad and Lori were once again texting back and forth rapid fire, and remember, this was all going on while Melanie Gibb and David Warwick were spending the night at Lori's condo in Rexburg.

Melanie, her former best friend, had previously testified that during the night of the 22nd and early morning hours of September 23rd, David had a really bad dream, almost like a nightmare or something. And they knocked on Lori's door to see if Chad could wake up to give David a blessing, which, guys...

Look, I'm not trying to shame anybody, but don't even get me started on what that was all about. Because seriously, like, what the heck? I'm all for religion, don't get me wrong. But like, you have a bad dream and you want a blessing? Okay, maybe, but I don't know. This whole thing just, this whole situation just kind of irks me. But anyways, the interesting part is that Lori's door was locked that night. And she never even answered the door when Melanie knocked.

So then on the 23rd, around 9 a.m., after Chad and Lori were texting, guess who starts making their way over to Chad's house again? Alex.

And once he's there, his phone pings right where JJ was buried. Now this was a major problem for the defense, considering that throughout this entire trial, Chad's attorney, John Pryor, has been trying to create this narrative that Chad lived in a pasture or this like huge expansive farmland and that he could not have had any idea that Tylee was burned and dismembered or that JJ was practically mummified with duct tape and then buried in a shallow grave. Because now

an FBI agent testified giving the exact location where Alex was on the property and that Chad was in his house the entire time. And get this, his bedroom window and his kitchen window have a direct view to exactly where the children were buried. Now, since most of Chad's defense is that he was framed by Lori and her brother Alex, how could they have framed him with this?

Well, during cross-examination, John Pryor was insinuating that the FBI may have been the ones to frame Chad, since they are the only law enforcement agency that had access to this data.

Which, let me just say, not saying that I trust every single thing that law enforcement does, but I don't really think that the FBI is making it a habit to frame people. Especially cult leaders. Especially people where there's hard evidence against them. Especially people where their wife also mysteriously died. Especially people who bought a wedding ring for their new wife two weeks before their wife died.

I don't think so. So the next two witnesses were Tammy's cousin Patty and her daughter Hannah. And both of them were given conflicting stories from Chad about how his wife Tammy died. For example, when Hannah was testifying, she talked about an incident where Chad was going up and down stairs. But then on cross-examination, John Pryor asked, are you aware that Chad's house is a one-story house? And she said no.

Now, at first, this made her seem like maybe she didn't know what she was talking about. And to be fair, Chad's house does look like a one-story, and it technically is. However, there is an addition off the back of the house that does have stairs to a loft. Which, let me just say, John Pryor should know, considering he is now currently the owner of the property, just like the realtor called him out for last week in the trial.

So the acreage that you're talking about, do you have any recollection of how much acreage we're talking around that surrounds Chad's house? You own it. How many acres is it? Well, I appreciate it. I don't know.

Judge, could we have a sidebar? Yes. So when he asked if she was aware that Chad's house was a one-story, a lot of people were wondering, wow, did John Pryor just lie? And I don't think he technically did, and I'm being very, very generous here, guys, but I do think that this is going to look really bad later on if the jury starts to put it together, that there was in fact an addition that had stairs on it, because now it does look like he's just making stuff up. And spoiler alert, the jury did hear more about the addition and the staircase.

So next, Tammy's cousin Patty gave a very emotional testimony about Tammy and about learning when she died. When Chad told her that Tammy died, he said that she wasn't feeling well and that she was coughing a lot. He asked if Tammy was okay, and she said that she threw up, but that she was now going to bed. Patty said that during this conversation, they were both crying. Then she said that before she walked away from Chad, he said, Tammy loved you so much.

Now, one thing that stood out to me during her testimony when she was asked if anything about Tammy's funeral stood out to her, she said yes. And at the funeral, she said, So the next witness that the prosecution called was Dr. Christensen. Now, can you tell us a little bit about that one, Lindsay? Sure.

So Dr. Christensen testified. He is Utah's former chief medical examiner and he actually also testified in Lori's trial, but he's the person that conducted the autopsy on Tammy's body in 2020. So this week he testified that Tammy died of asphyxiation and strangulation and he pointed to the fact that she had pink foam coming out of her mouth as well as some bruising that was found on her neck and her

bruising that was found kind of on the inside of her arms. If you think about like where your elbow is, but obviously the inside of your elbow, but above, so I guess your biceps, sorry guys. So your biceps, um, there was some bruising on there. So what he said is that based on her injuries, it's possible that she could have been, um,

held down or restrained while somebody else put a pillow over her face or smothered her. Which, this clearly was not good for the defense. Number one, Dr. Christensen could not have come off more credible in his statements based on all of his qualifications in prior education, as well as the fact that John Pryor has been trying to say, no, no, Tammy died of anemia. Tammy...

never liked to go to the doctor. She used herbal medicines. You know, it could have been something like that. She used essential oils because on cross-examination, John Pryor asked about those things.

things I just said. And Dr. Christensen basically, you know, said hard no. Nope, that would not have caused this. Based on my experience, absolutely no. So he really shut that down. So that was pretty bad for Chad, obviously. And then to make things even worse for him, his brother Matt was in the gallery sitting by Kay and Larry Woodcock.

He wanted to be there to support them throughout the trial. That was the first day he came. And you could tell that Chad did not want him there, in my opinion. Okay, so that's actually pretty crazy to me. Because so far, none of Chad's family have been in court. Did Chad look at him? Or what were you able to see in all of this? He did actually look over at Matt and kind of winked.

And somebody at the trial that I met, she actually took a screen recording after court got out and went back to that moment. And she screen recorded the exact moment. And you can literally see Chad's eyebrows raise as he looks over in Matt's direction. So it's actually pretty funny. I don't think that Matt was as enthused to see him, to be perfectly honest. It looks like it's been extremely hard on their entire extended family, losing Tammy and then now having his brother be charged with all these crimes. Oh.

Honestly, he's such a coward, but I'm so glad that Matt was there to be there for Larry and Kay. The next witness was Alice Gilbert, one of Chad's neighbors. She said that she knew Tammy better than Chad and probably saw her twice a week. She noticed that Tammy and Chad's interactions with each other changed in 2019, and she said that they just kind of started seeming a little bit distant.

When Alice was asked about Tammy having any health issues, or if she noticed that her activity had slowed down at all, she said that Tammy never slowed down. She never noticed her activity level change, there was no fainting, or really no health issues that Tammy ever brought up. No health issues at all. She said that she learned that Tammy died on the morning that she died.

because her daughter Emma called her. She said that Emma was sobbing, but then Chad took the phone from her. And then after that, she says that Chad asked her not to tell anyone that Tammy died for an hour, and specifically asked her not to call the church bishop, which Alice ended up doing anyway. But then she said that she went to the Daybell house after that around 8.30 a.m. with her husband. So if you remember, Chad called the police right about 6 a.m. So this is two and a half hours later. The police have already been there. All this stuff.

So she says that when she got to the Daybell house, Chad answered the door and gave them a hug. She said that all of the children were there except for Mark and that the children's spouses were also there and that they were sitting in the living room stunned, crying, and could hardly speak.

Yeah, and Alice asked Chad what had happened, and he talks about the legs hanging off the bed, that he thinks she died of an embolism, and she also said that Chad wasn't as upset as the children. When I asked him what happened, and he said that Tammy vomited at midnight, and they think she passed away at 2 a.m., and that her legs were hanging over the bed, and that she'd fallen out of bed.

He also said they think she died of an embolism. And Chad provided all this information the morning of her death? Yes. How did Chad appear to you? He wasn't as upset as the children. He was ready to tell us, and he wasn't as devastated as the children were.

Then the prosecutor brought up Tammy's funeral and Alice started crying and saying, "Yeah, I needed to go to this funeral. I needed to see her for myself in her casket." At the funeral, she said that Chad did not seem mournful at all. She said the children spoke and Chad spoke, but when Chad spoke, it was more of like a church talk, not a loving tribute to the mother of his kids. And then later on, Chad said that, "Yeah, you know, he can't live in the house anymore. Tammy's gone. It's too hard for him."

But luckily for him, he has a friend in Rexburg who has a condo that he can stay with. And he's actually told Alice that he is not home that often. So it works out. He. You said he. Do you recall, did Chad refer to the friend as a he? I took it as that. And I'm thinking he said he because he said he wasn't there very often. And so he could stay there. So Tammy's pronounced dead on Saturday, correct?

And by the following Wednesday, Chad's got plans to move out of the house. Yes.

Now, I've got to say, all of this has kind of been blowing my mind as it's been being uncovered because I feel like so much more damning information is coming out. Even though it seems like a similar trial to Lori's, there's still a lot of information that we're just finding out, right? And that we didn't hear. And guys, for those of you listening, it also gets a lot worse. But first, Lindsay, were you able to see Matt's reaction to all of this? So during this, Matt was looking down with his hands clasped together and

and kind of like with his head over his hands, if you can picture that. And to me, this is just what I saw. It looked like he was kind of looking down in disgust because he just would immediately look down, kind of shake his head a little bit, and then look back up just like, oh my God, man. Like you're lying to this poor church lady who seems so sweet

She's literally crying up on the stand for your wife. I'm telling you, this week, like I said, guys, has been wild. And you're hearing it directly here from Lindsay. You're hearing from us, like, what's been going down. And the testimony and the witnesses, it's just getting crazier and crazier. So, Lindsay, I want you to explain to the listeners what else is going down this week. What else has happened? Can you break it all down? Because there have been so many more, like,

oh my God moments in this trial this week. So can you break it down for all the listeners? Since not only have you been inside the courtroom, but you also have been watching Chad's reaction to all of this as it's unfolded. So Alice's whole testimony was really heartbreaking the whole time. She said that her husband and her reached out to Chad. She thought they could call him one week after Tammy died. So this is October 26th.

And she called him to say, hey, we want to visit with you. Just make sure you're okay. Can we come over to your condo? And Chad responded, no, I'll come to your place. So he came in the evening. And then that night when he's there, Chad told them, Alice and her husband, that he found the woman he's going to marry and that he met her at a conference in St. George, Utah. And we asked who she was and he wasn't going to tell us at first. And he said, well, I'll tell you later.

Her name was Lori Vallow. And to the best of your recollection, this was around October 26th? Yes. So just seven days after Tammy's passed away? Yeah. Were you surprised to hear that Chad had already found someone else to marry? Absolutely.

Next, Alice talked about how when Lori and Chad came to her house, she said that they both sat on her couch and it was really awkward because they were giggling, being super affectionate, laughing together, almost to the point where she said that her and her husband felt embarrassed.

She said that Lori explained that her husband had died that past December from a heart attack, which we know is not true because Charles was murdered in July of 2019. And then Chad decided to pipe in and say that she had a daughter that had recently passed away. I had the impression that she was an empty nester. And I assumed the daughter was older that had passed, you know, from it.

disease or cancer or something that I assumed she didn't have any other children. And then when she was asked about the marriage and how she knew that, she said that Chad came over to her house with wedding photos from Hawaii, those horrible ones that we've seen so many times. And then Alice said, yes, he was quite excited to show us.

Mind you, again, this is weeks after Tammy died, Alice's friend. The prosecution also asked Alice if Chad came over any other times to their house, and she said, yeah, he did, probably after Lori was arrested. And she said that Chad came over after he moved back to Idaho. She said that she thinks it was her bond, and he asked Alice and her husband if they would put up

the bond for Lori to get out of jail, saying that Chad was crying and he was telling them that it was just killing Lori to be in jail. And she said, you know, we felt really awkward about this. You know, we did not say yes. We told them, look, like, we're really gonna have to think about this.

But also, if you are asking this, then I need to ask you a question. Where are the kids? Because at this point, Lori was arrested for not producing her children at all. So she said, you know, does Lori have another daughter? Because now it says that Tylee is missing. But where you said that she had another daughter that passed. And Chad said that, no, I didn't say that. I never said that. How many daughters does Lori have?

And he said, one. And I said, well, when we met you, you told me she had a daughter that passed away. And he said, no, I didn't. And I said, yes, you did. And then when I asked him about the missing children and he said it was a custody battle. So that's why I asked, how many daughters does she have? And

And then he denied telling me that. And then this probably was the most heartbreaking part of the entire testimony. Alice started crying when she was talking about what happened next. And she asked Chad, you know, what about Tylee? So I asked him, where are the children? And I asked him, where's Tylee? You know, she's a teenager. So I said, doesn't she want a life? And come out and say, I'm the missing girl. I want to...

job and life and a boyfriend. And he just said she didn't like people and she didn't like me. Did something stick out about those statements? He said didn't. So he used the past tense. He did. Now, during the cross-examination of this, there was one juror specifically that looked disgusted.

at Chad. The next witness was Todd Gilbert, Alice's husband. He said that he knew Chad better, saw him maybe one time a week, maybe once or twice a week. Then they asked, okay, well, did

did you know about his beliefs? And he said, yeah, we talked about it a little bit sometimes. And he always thought, you know, well, maybe they happened to him. But he said that he didn't believe Chad's visions. He also talked about a time that Chad came over and he said that Chad came over and told him, I don't know if I should say this, Tammy's life mission will come to an end before her 50th birthday, which...

Tammy died at 49. Then he talked about how after Tammy died, how Chad didn't seem sad and seem more businesslike. He also talked about a time when after Tammy died, he was again talking with Todd and said, oh yeah, you know, I have a girlfriend. Like, just nonchalantly. My wife of

almost 30 years just passed, but I have a girlfriend. And then it gets worse. He went on to say that Tammy's mission on earth was over. So the second half of Chad's life was supposed to be with Lori to help him do his mission. And he threw in that Lori is so beautiful. The next part is really heartbreaking. Again, it's about Tylee and what Chad said to him about that.

And do you recall being present for a conversation regarding the statement Chad had previously made about Lori's daughter? Yes. And what do you recall hearing Chad say? I remember him saying that she didn't really like him too much. And so she would kind of stay away from him. She was like a typical college student.

So then that was pretty much the end of the testimony on Wednesday, and then so moving into Thursday, we started off with Kay Woodcock testifying. During this, Chad looked like he was looking at Kay, and maybe that he was even actually looking at the screen when JJ's picture was up. It was really odd, but I've kind of come to the conclusion at this point that maybe he's just...

I wouldn't know where to look either, so maybe he's just looking because that's what he feels like he should do. It doesn't seem like he's doing anything wrong or bad necessarily. It's just, it's always interesting because it does change witness per witness when he will look at them or if he even does look at them. And so we'll get into that a little later because, spoiler alert, it gets pretty crazy.

So in Kay's testimony, she was talking about Charles, the custody of JJ, how Charles and Lori were married, and how she had access to his emails, how she became the beneficiary of his life insurance policy, and when he was murdered. Now during this, John Pryor objected a few times, and the first couple ones, you know, she was kind of okay, and then the third one, in my opinion, she looked like she was getting really annoyed by this.

So after Charles was murdered and Lori found out that she was no longer the beneficiary of his life insurance policy,

Kay said that Lori sent her a text at the end of July. So remember, he was shot on July 11th. So Lori sent Kay a text basically confronting her that, hey, you know, you're the beneficiary for the life insurance and said, is that why you want JJ? Well, I've got five kids and no money and you just get everything? Question mark. Next, Kay talked about the last FaceTime call she had with JJ. It was on August 10th, 2019.

And with this, she basically talked about how it was very short. And then after that, Lori was extremely evasive. Oftentimes wouldn't even respond to any of Kay's requests to talk with him, see him, anything like that. And prior to this, she had visited with...

JJ or that her and Larry would make a trip to go see JJ specifically at least every two months. After Lori and Charles adopted JJ, one of the agreements that Kay had with Charles and Lori was that she would get to remain a part of JJ's life as the role of a grandmother. Because remember, she had JJ as soon as he was let out of the hospital and in her custody.

Kay said that, you know, after Lori was being evasive, she kept trying to contact her. She emailed her. She texted her. She left her voicemails and she never responded ever. So I wanted to ask you, did you ever contact law enforcement about JJ's whereabouts? Absolutely. I mean, that was the once we knew Charles was dead.

We knew he was in trouble because Lori didn't want JJ anymore. She didn't want Tylee anymore. She didn't want Charles anymore.

Next, she was asked how she found out that the kids were in Rexburg or that Lori was in Rexburg rather. And she said that she had Charles's email accounts and stuff like that because she used to help him with some of his business stuff. So one day she logged into Charles's email and saw an email from Amazon. So she clicked on it. Of course, that is the Amazon purchase. And she found this information on November 8th, which is actually three days after the

Lori and Chad were already married at this point. I searched for Malachite wedding rings. There was one purchased actually for $35 or $36.99. I saw searches for

women's beach wedding dresses. I saw that she looked at or maybe purchased two, I don't remember, a yellow bikini, not a bikini, a yellow one-piece bathing suit. And another search was men's beach clothes, men's light linen beach clothes,

And a size large is what she was looking at. And it was a white shirt and white pants that like you would wear on a beach, you know, linen type clothes. Why did those items catch your attention? Because of, I know that Tammy passed away October the 19th. And if, and Lori was obviously involved with Chad Daybell. And it was just, it was just,

mind-blowing that they were looking at wedding rings before Tammy's death. Judge, I'm going to object. Calls for speculation. Kay also said that she was looking for JJ and they asked her why and the prosecutor asked her why and she said that because Lori and Chad would not answer questions regarding JJ and Tylee when they were missing.

So, immediately after she said this, my eyes shot over to Chad. What are you looking at? What's your response? What's your reaction? And he, so a lot of people have been wondering, what's Chad doing on his computer? Well, his computer does not have internet access, so I think it literally just has all the exhibits and stuff relating to his trial on the computer. But he, it looks like he was like fake working almost. Typing away, like he, like he, it was weird.

It was so weird. Now, during cross-examination, things got a little spicy. First, John Pryor tried to say, well, Laurie and Alex were involved in Charles's murder. Is that correct? No, I don't know if they were the only two involved in his murder, but yes. And it's interesting to note that you made the point of emphasizing that the search was done by Laurie Vallow, correct? Yes.

Yes. And Chad Daybell didn't have any access to Lori Vallow's account, right? I have no idea. Right. And you don't have an idea whether or not Chad Daybell even had knowledge that Lori Vallow was planning to purchase these items, do you? Say that again, please. Well, you don't have any specific knowledge that suggests that Chad Daybell was involved in helping her purchase these items, do you? Actually, I guess not because it was on Charles' credit card. Right.

She was buying new wedding stuff on his credit card. Now the next witness was Sheila Daybell, Chad's mother. When the state announced that Sheila Daybell was going to be the next witness when they called her to the stand, I could almost hear everyone go,

like not not a loud gasp because we're not supposed to make noise but i could hear around me there was definitely like a stir in the courtroom everyone was like oh my god she talked about how she met with chad and lori at a texas roadhouse in idaho falls and she talked about how lori said that her husband recently died of a heart attack and one thing that she said that was interesting was that lori said that she had a daughter that had died

What did Chad tell you in that phone call? That Tammy had passed away. What did you do when you got that phone call? We immediately went to Idaho. Did you go to Chad and Tammy's house? Yes. Did you see Chad there? I did. How would you describe his demeanor? Upset. Well, she just said that her husband had recently died. Did she say how he had died? Heart attack.

When Lori said that her husband had died of a heart attack, what did Chad say, if anything? I don't remember any specific mention. Okay. And did Lori or Chad say anything about whether or not Lori had children? She said she had a daughter that had died. Do you remember how old that daughter was? She didn't say a date. Did she say anything about whether or not she had a young son? No.

When Lori said that her daughter died, did Chad say anything that you recall? I can't. No, I don't think. Which is not what Alice Gilbert, Chad's neighbor, that testified what she said. She said that Chad said that. But in this case, she's saying Lori did. So there is that discrepancy there. You can be the judge of who said what. And now during cross-examination, it was...

so weird first of all john pryor was like oh you know so chad's your son okay who are your other sons and she says starts to name him and then she says matt and he's oh well matt's here isn't he

And he turns around and is like, like pointing almost where he is. And he's just like in the gallery sitting by Kay Woodcock. And he says, isn't that him there in the green shirt? Which I don't know what the point of that was, to be honest. It seemed really odd. I don't know if John Pryor was trying to make it seem like maybe to the jury that he

Matt was there in support of Chad. I'm not sure. Now, during this, it was odd. It was really odd. Again, Sheila was laughing, or smiling, not laughing, but just, she just seemed extremely upbeat, and maybe that's her personality. Maybe she's like that all the time. I have no idea, but it came off like she found John Pryor charming, or...

I don't want to use the word flirting because it wasn't like that at all, but it just seemed like just some friendly banter. It was really, really, really odd.

Then the bombshell of all bombshell witnesses, in my opinion, took the stand. Chad's sister-in-law, Heather Daybell, a.k.a. his quote-unquote dark sister-in-law. So she talked about why Chad moved to Rexburg, how he would fulfill his prophetic role by moving to Rexburg. At any point, did the relationship, the nature of your relationship with him change? It did, yes. When did it change?

2014, when he started talking about end of times events and discussing a book that he had published for Julie Rowe. We'll come back to that. But how did this relationship change at that point? I was concerned about the things that he was telling the family and telling Matt and I. I was not comfortable with what he was saying.

informing us with. Will you please elaborate to the jury what were the things that Chad was saying or teaching you that caused you the concerns? He indicated that there would be an earthquake that would be happening in 2015, and he was kind of making us aware and preparing us for all of these end times events that were going to happen and cause a lot of destruction in Utah, in particular Salt Lake area.

Did he explain to you why he believed those events would occur? Those were events that Julie Rowe had seen in a near-death experience. And so he had talked about those things with her as he published her book. And then he indicated he was seeing those things in vision as well. So Chad is someone who had expressed to you and your family these visions that he had had? That he could see beyond the veil and see future events.

Were there other things he explained to you that caused you concern, other teachings in addition to that? At that point, it was mainly that. It was just these end-of-times events and when they would happen. Later, were there other teachings or things that he would say to you or your family that caused you concern? When he informed us, he was thinking of moving his family to Rexburg, Texas.

In 2014, he or 15, whenever that was, he it started. We actually had a conversation with him asking him exactly what it was he thought was going to happen. And we had a pretty detailed conversation. I'd like to pause you there to the best you can recall. Can you tell the jury when did that conversation occur? That conversation was when they came out. Chad, Tammy and some of their children came out to Rexburg to look for homes.

And Matt and I sat with Chad in our home. That would have been summertime 2015. And what happened in that conversation? It was, excuse me, it was asking him point blank to give us the details of why he felt he needed to make this move. And he indicated that he

And in particular, the houses that he was looking at were very close to our home. And we had some concerns with that. He talked about, he told my husband and I that we would become great leaders in this gathering of people that would happen because of all the destruction in Utah, that our land where we lived would help in that, and that our home would become like a church or a temple. He was telling us those kinds of things.

And that he felt like he needed to be in Rexburg with his family because the headquarters in Salt Lake of the church would end up having to move to Rexburg when all this destruction happened. Did he ever explain to you whether he had seen or believed that he would have any kind of a significant role in this? Mainly just the...

That he would be helping in this gathering of people with their tents and everything, that he would be helping in that cause. So based on what he was telling you, did he perceive his need to move to Rexburg to be something he could do to fulfill his role? Yes, that he had a part to play in that. Okay.

Did you believe these visions or teachings at the time that Chad was sharing? No, I did not. Chad at first was not looking at Heather at all. Like it seemed like he was trying to ignore that she was even in the room because Heather is Chad's worst nightmare. She said that Chad's never liked her. He actually told Matt, her husband, once he proposed to Heather not to marry her, that he just didn't see it working out.

She talked about when they moved to Rexburg and said, Heather, this is happening. All the earthquakes are happening, all of this stuff. She said that Chad was teaching all of his visions and dreams to his family and said that he would come home with visions and sometimes Tammy would roll her eyes a little bit and then she would pray about it and figure out that he was correct or right. She also said that all of his children believed his visions.

She talked about how she learned Tammy died and she said that this felt scripted and made her feel really uneasy. And during this moment, I was looking at Chad and Chad was staring a hole through her. Like it looked like he hated her in that moment. And honestly, I, in my head, I was thinking, well, you know, if Chad had any powers, any real powers, then

We would have seen them right in that moment. He would have caused lightning to strike her down if he could have. So obviously we know his powers aren't real, but now they're definitely not. Because if he could summon earthquakes, he would have done it right then. He was not liking this at all. The whole time he was explaining that, it felt scripted to me. Like he was reading it or something. It just felt very...

It was the word that came to my mind and it made me feel very uneasy. Did you say anything to him about that scripted feeling or anything else? I did not. I asked him if he was going to have an autopsy done to find out why she had passed. And he said, no, that a coroner had come and looked at Tammy and could clearly see that there was matter in her throat that she, that that's why she had died is she had coughed hard and thrown up and,

that had caused her death. So there was no need for an autopsy. And that was Chad's explanation to you? Sorry. Yes, it was. What else did you talk about in that conversation? He informed me that the funeral would be in two days. And I said, well, Matt and I aren't even home. We're in Las Vegas. Can you wait so we can get home?

Matt had another brother that was out of town as well and just said, can you wait till week and I'll get home to be to the funeral? And he said, no, we're just going to get it done. She said that when she saw Chad speak at the funeral and the memorial in Rexburg, that it seemed like he would turn his tears on and off and he seemed extremely disingenuous and that he had a strange demeanor the entire time. She also talked about how at the luncheon for Tammy, Chad was late and she said this was

really odd and stuck out to her because she's like, how could you be late to your own wife's luncheon memorial? And she said that finally, Tammy's sister's husband said, you know what, we're just going to get started. Chad's not here yet, but let's go ahead.

Next, she talked about a phone call that she received from Alice Gilbert, who again is the neighbor that went over to Chad's house with her husband right after Tammy died that testified earlier this week. She was the one that called Heather to tell her that he got remarried and that the children were struggling and upset. So with that information, Heather sent a group text to Chad's kids. Hey, are you guys okay? You know, I

I heard your dad got married, all this stuff. And she said, you know, almost immediately my phone rings. It's Chad calling. I answered. He said, this is Chad. And he was upset with me and told me I had been a problem for him his whole life. And I asked him, who is this person you've married? And he explained her name was Lori. Would I like to meet her? And I said, no, I would not.

And then I asked him what happened to Tammy, and he said she died of a pulmonary embolism because she had gained 40 pounds. How did you react to that when he gave that explanation? I remember being so flustered by that explanation because he had given me a different one weeks before that I...

I was just upset. And he indicated to me, I'm going to be living in Hawaii, so you don't have to worry about me anymore. And that was the end of the conversation. Overall, this week was absolutely wild. Chad looked concerned. He would nod his head at certain points. He's becoming a lot more

He's moving a lot more than he definitely did in the beginning of the trial. Now, watching Chad's reaction when his sister-in-law, who he doesn't like, is burying him, when his mom is testifying, when his brother is in the courtroom, I cannot even begin to explain. Like, I almost, I felt awkward for like how awkward I know it must have been for Chad. Not that I care, but

It was like an out-of-body experience to see this happening. My nerves were all over the place too.

You could tell when Chad didn't like the testimony being said because he would either just look at the prosecutor or he was doing a lot of fake work on his laptop. I'll call it fake work because I'm not really sure what he's doing, but it looks like he's working on something, but he's not. I think that Chad probably felt so weird when Matt was there. Heather has actually done a three-part documentary.

series interview on Hidden True Crime. I highly recommend watching it. It's really insightful. Heather says she talks about how pretty much all of Chad's siblings, other than him, they all have master's degrees. You know, one of them's a lawyer, all this stuff. And it kind of seems like Chad...

could never measure up to his siblings in some way. So I just, I cannot imagine being there with your brother who is extremely successful physical therapist. His wife is testifying, burying you, calling you out on your lies and talking about how crazy she thought you were and how much she tried to warn people. And then your mom come in on the same day. I mean, like I said,

had to be a really really bad day for Chad I know it has been a wild week I I myself also wonder what's gonna happen next week so guys we will definitely keep you in the know we will give you this updated recap again next week I

I don't think we've seen the last of some of these like new witnesses and new testimony. So we'll see what happens as we go further into this trial. I also am going to start the Karen Reed trial recaps next week because that is another major, major trial going on right now that is like a wild case. If you're not familiar with that case, I'm going to link the episode we did to the full case in the show notes. But it's one where

They're saying she murdered her Boston police officer boyfriend. She's saying that other officers murdered him and are framing her. People are dubbing it the cover-up murder. I mean, it is wild, and I've got to say, there's a lot of details that make me think that she could very well be being set up. I don't know. So if you're not familiar with that case, listen to the full episode, and then that way, starting fresh for next week when we start doing the recaps on the Karen Reid trial, you'll be fully up to date with that.

the case as we go on also as a reminder we launched our merch yesterday you can find it at annieelise.com it's a very very very limited quantities so some of it's already sold out if you want to grab some now's the time to do it because we're not going to have another merch launch until probably the fall but um thank you guys as always for listening and i appreciate you guys being here with me and i will be back on the mic with you first thing monday morning with a mega super-sized

crazy roller coaster of a case. Alright guys, thanks and until then, be nice, don't kill people, and don't be a Chad Daybell. Alright, bye guys.