14: Bryan Kohberger & Chad Daybell Feat. Hidden True Crime
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This one is a little bit of a bonus episode because it's outside of the normal Monday release schedule, but I knew I just had to jump on here and talk with you guys about this. And I have some amazing guests on too, which I am so excited about. It has been a very busy week in the true crime world. Some good news, some bad news, but also, of course, as always, a lot of confusing news.

There are two cases specifically that I wanted to jump on here and talk to you about today. The first one being that of Brian Koberger. Brian Koberger, as a reminder, is the accused murderer of the four slain students from the University of Idaho and that brutal murder that took place back in November of 2022.

There has been some new information released about his parents, some grand juries, some things that we need to talk about, quite honestly. In addition to that, I really wanted to talk about Lori again, Lori Vallow, because I think that she is still so fascinating as far as the psychological aspect of it.

Knowing what was going on inside of her mind, the brainwashing that potentially happened, and really getting into the nooks and crannies, so to speak, of the corners of her brain. Now, I am no expert, clearly, but I figured what better way to get inside Lori's mind than to actually listen.

talk to some experts. We are going to be discussing Brian Koberger's criminal profile today and some changes in what's going on with Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell behind the scenes. Did his loyalty shift? Is his allegiance to Lori now breaking and is he going to throw her skanky ass hard under the bus? What's going on with Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell behind the scenes?

We're going to talk about all of it.

He appeared in court with his attorney, Ann Taylor, where the judge read him his rights, his charges, and penalties. This was the first time that we have seen Brian Koberger back in the courtroom in months. I want to make it clear that Brian is innocent until proven guilty, and everything in this video is alleged.

Since his arrest several months ago, there have been multiple Dateline episodes and other documentaries by major media outlets have also since been released, all offering its viewers a look at what happened, but also information about Brian's alleged involvement, rumors, and information from anonymous sources.

There has also been some new information that has come to light this week. Apparently, both Brian's parents were required to testify in front of a grand jury in Pennsylvania where he was arrested and where he had lived prior to his move to Washington. They were required to testify in front of this grand jury in an investigative effort regarding a missing woman from that area who went missing in May of 2022, shortly before Brian moved to Washington.

so of course this had everybody buzzing when we heard this because it had been rumored that his parents tried to actually block the subpoenas that were requiring them to come and testify which felt a little uncomfortable but again we don't know the inner workings of all of that but it also got people talking because of course if the possibility of him being involved in another crime and this woman's remains have been discovered she was in fact killed

Does that mean that Brian is in fact a serial killer from previous deaths, not only the four murders in Idaho, assuming that he in fact was the murderer? It also begs the question, were the IDs that were found during the search inside the glove, inside the box, inside the house,

not the students IDs, but that of other victims of his potentially. And something with that that I thought was interesting is I remember when we first heard that IDs were found, of course, the automatic assumption for many of us was it must have been the Idaho students. But I remember, and I believe I said this in the video too, that my inclination with that was,

The murder of those four students was carried out so quickly, so fast, that I couldn't imagine him having the time to rifle through their belongings to find the IDs to then take with him as a trophy, especially since they had already been back in the house, most likely didn't have their handbag near them, probably were in pajamas, I would assume, I don't know. But I felt like, okay, to commit four murders and be in and out in whatever it was, 14 minutes, and to go through their things to get their IDs, 15%.

feels like a stretch, maybe could happen, but it felt a little like something wasn't really quite connecting. The dots weren't all there for me. But now hearing this and some do say he has a solid alibi. So I want to be clear about that. It hasn't been proven that he does, but a lot of people are saying that a source has come forward and that he does have an alibi for when this woman went missing.

but if he is involved in any other crimes prior to the four Idaho victims could those ID cards belong to those other victims and if so because it was written on that warrant as ID cards being plural is there more than one card could there be more than one victim and were they trophies we don't know but we're going to talk about a lot of that so just hang tight

Really quickly, I want to shift gears over to Lori Vallow. Lori Vallow was also recently convicted on her murder charges for the deaths of her children. Now with both of these insane cases, both happening in Idaho, it really got me thinking, and I wanted to take a closer look into the mind of these criminals, or alleged criminals in Brian Koberger's case, and I wanted to get a look inside their minds from a psychological perspective.

So I thought, who better to join me than Dr. John Mathias, a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 25 years experience in both clinical and forensic work, and former investigative journalist Lauren Mathias, who, if you haven't guessed by now with the matching last names, they are husband and wife.

They also have an amazing YouTube channel and a podcast called Hidden True Crime. And if you haven't already subscribed to them, you need to. They have an amazing community with their hidden gems. And I can't say enough of how much I personally enjoy their content from their well-informed and thought-provoking perspective. It is the absolute best chef's kiss.

The Netflix docuseries Sins of Our Mother, which is of course about Lori Vallow, as well as the recent dateline about Lori Vallow's trial. So I am so excited to have them here today to give us an inside look inside the minds of these two

alleged, one convicted criminals and see if we can dig a little bit deeper and understand things a little bit more and try to get in the minds of Brian and Lori and wrap our minds around how they could possibly do the things that they were accused of. Well, Lori, we know she did. She was convicted. So here we go. I am so excited to bring on John and Lauren. Today,

Today's episode of Serialistly is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Now, most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yes, I know you are. While you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you are not in some kind of moving vehicle, there is something else you can be doing right now, getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance. If you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there is something else you can be doing right now,

It's easy, and you could save money by doing it right from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner, and more. So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24-7, 365 days a year, so you're protected no matter what.

Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.

Go to ssa.gov slash extra help.

Paid for by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Lauren and Dr. John, thank you guys so much for joining me today. I am so excited to have you here and just pick your brains and get all of the answers from you. So before we get into everything, can you just tell the viewers, the listeners, a little bit about your channel, your backgrounds, and your primary focus when you're choosing to cover the cases that you do?

Yes, Annie, first off, thank you so much for having us. We're so honored to be here. Our channel started as a family channel. It still is a family channel. Dr. John, who I call him when we're on the show, sometimes now it slips into real life. He's actually my husband, my real life husband. We're married. I was a TV reporter for 10 years. He is a forensic and clinical...

My real life husband that I call him Dr. John only on our show, but people are like, do you call him that at home? I'm like, I didn't used to, but it's starting to like flip into...

sometimes now. And he is a forensic and clinical psychologist. I'll let him explain his background a little bit more, but it was the pandemic. I had just quit work to be home with our son who was a year old at the time, right before the pandemic. And we always talk true crime, you know, both of our, you know, I would cover it with my career. He assesses and evaluates criminals for a living. And so when the pandemic happened and all the prisons and jails closed,

Uh, we thought, Oh, now what, you know, now that we were both out of work. And so we just did what we always did. And we started recording our, our regular conversations in our, in our living room and around our dinner table and hidden true crime was born. And now, and now here we are today. So that's a bit of that. Yeah. Thank you. We're a YouTube channel and a podcast.

uh started as a podcast now now we're we're big into the the youtube scene because of all of our hidden gems our listeners who said youtube youtube youtube so here we are today so great and dr john can you give us a little bit of a rundown of your experience in professional history so i've been a clinical and forensic psychologist now for over 25 years and my main job is to go into jails and prisons and assess risk so

I meet with either violent or sexual offenders, and quite often I will determine their risk level to see if they could be placed in the community or how they should be dealt with in terms of sentencing or future risk to recidivate. So my main focus has been on assessing risk. But other than that, I also do psychological assessments for

criminals that are in prison and jails. I do assessments for defense attorneys, prosecutors, DAs. I do consultation for cases that are going to trial that want to know about strategies for various legal matters that pertain to mental health issues. I've also done a lot of clinical work. I've worked with a lot of victims of abuse and trauma and

I'm very familiar with, so I'm very familiar with both sides, with the offender side and the victim side as well, and the impact of trauma on mental health. So that's been my career so far.

In a nutshell, I would imagine that that must be an incredible amount of pressure when it comes to making the assessment when somebody is due to be released or what their sentencing should be. I can't imagine the kind of pressure that would come with that. Has that ever been a challenge for you or weighed heavily on you or have you ever had a specific challenge that you can cite?

Yeah. Thank you for acknowledging that. It is very stressful. And so I think for probably the first 10 years that I was doing it, I think every evaluation I did was really concerning to me in terms of getting it right and trying to be as meticulous as possible about risk and making decisions that in some cases would send people away for life. So in Nevada, for example, if I came back with high risk and

for certain offenders by statute, they have to serve the rest of their lives in prison. So in some cases, so not all cases, some of that's negotiable, but so I'm making decisions that are life and death literally. And that's not something I signed up for when I became a psychologist. So I think, yeah, I take it very seriously and it is stressful. It has been stressful. I think after a while,

you adapt and you get used to it. And I think you become, at least with me, I became more comfortable with my knowledge and with these assessments, even though obviously I dealt with these issues in grad school. I think when you get in the real world and you're seeing real people being sentenced, it becomes a different phenomenon. So yes, it can be stressful. Lauren and I joke that like every four or five years I revisit

the field and whether I should be doing something else just because it is, there can be a lot of pressure and, and the decisions have really dire consequences in some cases. So I guess the flip side of that is that,

you know, sometimes I'll joke with my neighbors that I'm the guy that keeps them safe even though they have no idea I'm doing that. Well, no, that's such a great point. And I was just going to say like on a personal level, thank you because I feel like it is people like you in those positions where you have that control, that power, and that trust put in you to where it is who keeps us safe and who puts it at a, you know, a reoffender back on the street or who makes sure that they remain locked up. So,

It's one of the most important jobs and probably the one that doesn't get enough credit, to be quite honest, because maybe it's not in the limelight as some of these other positions. I don't know. True. Yeah, we're not like law enforcement in the sense that law enforcement will be in the media or in the public eye. And, you know, the only reason I am now is because we're doing the podcast. But otherwise, yeah, nobody, I'm just completely anonymous and

private and that's kind of who I am anyway. So this has been different for me. It's been a little bit of a challenge to kind of be in the public eye a little bit and to be in documentaries and YouTube channels and interviews because it's not something I'm accustomed to. But on the other hand, I feel like I have a lot of experience and hopefully a fair amount of knowledge by now that I can share. So I feel content that I'm able to do that.

Absolutely. And I think that just speaking not only as a creator, but a viewer personally, it's so valuable having experts like both of you weigh in on things like this and share your knowledge and your professional expertise in the area because it's

As a viewer, we usually only hear from news outlets, mainstream media. Other than that, it's the Reddit forums, things like that. But very rarely do you hear directly from experts in the field, people who have had firsthand knowledge of things. So now, especially with this huge surge of this true crime phenomenon where people are so fascinated and interested in it, it's so helpful having experts like yourselves weigh in on things and

convey the facts and evidence and things of that nature in lay terms so that everybody can understand it. And you're not just, you know, reduced to a segment on Good Morning America where you're only hearing maybe a biased point of view. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So many others do.

Although I was, ironically, I was reduced to like a 20-second segment on Good Morning America that didn't really present my perspective. But yeah, that's funny you mentioned that. Happens to all of us. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I know that both of you guys have been covering the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since the very beginning and that whole saga. So what is it that really drew you into that personally first?

I'll start with that. You know, again, I mentioned the pandemic is one of these moments where we had to make a decision as a family and just keep doing what we're doing. Go back there. I know that you're a mom, Annie. I'm sure this is something you went through too, but I had no idea how hard it would be, how much to shift from being a full-time career to being a mother. And I

I was at home with him loving this. I'd always wanted this moment in my life. I always wanted to be a mother, but I had just quit my reporting career to be with him. And I guess you could say you can take the journalist out of the newsroom, but you can't take the journalist out of the girl somewhat. So I, I,

I'm really into news. I was reading everything that came down on the AP wire and it was the day that this came down where I opened it up and I saw that there were two missing children and two newlyweds, Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, who were also allegedly missing and the police were asking for the public's help.

And I'm from this area. I spent half of my TV reporting years in Idaho. My mother is from that area. I reported in Rexburg. Additionally, my background, I was raised in the LDS faith.

I am LDS and so I saw a woman who looked like every one of my friend's mothers growing up almost. And I saw a man whose books were being sold at a place called Deseret Book that I know and I just thought, "What the hell is going on?"

I also knew my journalist gut and my journalist heart knew this wasn't going to end well. I could just tell. I was like, this is really bad. What is going on? And it benefits you to live with a forensic psychologist. So I went straight to him and asked him that exact question. Look at these people. What is going on?

And that is why we started with the Daybell case is because I started, I joined my first Facebook group. Heaven help you. And I, we all have our first one we join, right? The first one.

That was mine. My first one that I joined and I started trying to get every bit of information I could and was being a journalist and just asking him all these questions. And again, that's why we started recording the conversations. It was so organic and so real. I wanted to know what the hell was going on. And I had the person to ask right in front of me. And we just

started our podcast right then and there. Help me understand who Chad Daybell is. Help me understand who Lori Vallow is. And, uh, from there, it just sort of really happened organically. Victims started reaching out to us saying, thank you. We want to add to what you know, we want to add to your knowledge. And then soon we were talking to so many people that were, um,

involved in this, you know, unknowingly involved, not wanting to be involved. And then it became even more personal to us because we started to become close to some of these victims. And that is the very long story about why we became so invested in this crime.

No, I love that, especially how you said that it just happened and started very organically, because I feel like in so many situations when it does begin that way, you can tell that the intentions, of course, are pure and good. But also there's just like such an emotional investment personally to where it's like you almost have to see it through. You have to be involved. You want to do it justice. You want to gather all the facts.

And I know, Lauren, that you were at the trial every day. John, I would imagine you were getting the recap, the down low at the end of day every day and then hearing the delayed audio. So a little bit about that. I know you firsthand saw Lori's behavior in the courtroom. Did you relay all of that to John to be like, hey, this is how she's acting, her facial expressions. What does this mean?

Yeah, yes, I did. In fact, before I took off, we had a we were so as I flew off, I have to tell this funny story to as I flew off for the trial. This is the first trial I really covered. As a reporter, you go in for days of trials, but you actually don't really have the luxury of spending every day all day in a trial because you have a job to do. You have other stories to cover. So this is my first trial.

full trial that I have ever covered. And as we as he was dropping me off at the airport for me to fly to Boise, and we had a babysitter for our son, we had this little pep talk with each other in the cell phone lot.

And we were like, okay, we're going to go live every night. We're going to do, we're going to let people know everything going on. It's so funny to look back up because back on, because I think the trial was like six or seven weeks. And in the end, I think we were able to go live like five times together because it was so busy, but you know, you know, we had high expectations.

And I did relay a lot to him late at night at midnight or at 1:00 AM when I was finally done working. But it was very overwhelming for me to be there and watch everything play out again. It was already emotional and personal to us because we had gotten to know many of the victims prior to the trial.

We'd gotten to love JJ and Tylee, gotten to know Tammy Daybell. And so it was very overwhelming with those personal feelings and being invested. And then to see her and her either lack of emotion or her disinterest, or times when she was crying, and you were wondering why, like, what is why is she crying at this moment? Is she sad? Is she feeling bad for herself? Is

Is she feeling empathy, heaven forbid? I can't imagine she would be feeling empathy. And so it was very overwhelming to sit there in front of her each day. I would relate to John everything she was doing. I would sit very close to the jurors, which was interesting. I was closer to the jurors than anyone else. And to watch their reactions and their expressions, they were very invested, the jurors. And I've heard from other people who have reported

reported on who have reported on other trials that there were no uh jurors that they had seen more invested i would sit next to brian enten every day and he said this this jury is listening uh these jurors are are watching there was one juror who just stare at lori all day just stare her down and uh you know it was it was overwhelming there were days in the trial i will never forget the days we saw the autopsy photos um

I'll never forget that day. I'll never forget some of the witnesses. It was, I would call John sometimes for, you know, emotional support. You know, how, you know, we haven't done content for a couple of weeks since I've been back just because I needed to regroup. But yes, I would relay to John all of these things. I don't know what he took away from that, but. Yeah, John, what did you make of Lori's behavior? Because I think one of the largest things that has been talked about is,

just emotionless. And she had those little moments where she showed emotion and would cry. But I was like, like you, I was like, is that genuine or is that fake? Is it be for yourself? So what did you make of her behavior, Dr. Jean? You know, that's something we've talked a lot about on our podcast. But I think there's different hypotheses about her emotions that I would suggest. You know, one is that I've

I believe that there's some history of depression. So, you know, the lack of emotions could be something as simple as major depression and just this constant negation of sadness or any affect. And that would be consistent with depression. It could be that a lot of people speculated and asked, is she a psychopath?

you know, somebody that's capable of murdering their kids? Does she kind of fall into that category? I don't know for sure. I can't answer that. We've speculated that she has some psychopathic traits. So, but one thing that's consistent with psychopathy is a lack of emotion. Psychopaths are notorious for not showing any emotion and being completely callous and unemotional. In fact, that's one of the main traits of

of children that turn out to be psychopaths later is that they they have this callous unemotional trait and so there's i think there could be some of that although i you know i don't know for sure i didn't do any evaluations on her obviously i haven't met with her there was some speculation in one of her competency evaluations that she had schizoaffective disorder which basically is is a version of schizophrenia so schizophrenia with a major

with a mood disorder. And in this case, I think major depression, which again would be consistent with depression. So people with schizophrenia, typically that's one of the symptoms of schizophrenia is that, you know, especially like people that are catatonic, they have no emotion. They're very flat.

So, you know, you have there's I think there's a couple of hypotheses out there about why she's unemotional and it could maybe fit any of those categories. So in terms of saying she's definitively one or the other, I don't really know. But I mean, I guess people can take their pick. Right. But it's it's I think it could. So I think it could be a number of things or it could be a combination of all of those.

Today's episode of Serialistly is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Now, most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yes, I know you are. While you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you are not in some kind of moving vehicle, there is something else you can be doing right now, getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

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Do you think that any of those traits or her behavior or mannerisms point in the direction of truly, in fact, being brainwashed and maybe still being under the guise that if she was, in fact, brainwashed, who knows, but like under the guise of like what Chad was selling her so much in her believing that that was still true?

Yeah, you know, the idea of brainwashing and the research on brainwashing is controversial. There's a lot of debate about whether people can be brainwashed. I think with Laurie, you know, this is something, again, we talked about on our podcast. I talked about what I called the breaking bad defense, which was essentially, if you saw the Netflix documentary, Sins of Our Mother, the family, the Cox family, essentially presented that version of Laurie, that she was...

this wonderful, upstanding mother, you know, periods of driven snow. All she did was love her kids all day and all night. And all of a sudden she meets Chad Daybell and she becomes this horrible, evil person. Right. And I've disputed that version of events, by the way. I think it is.

I don't think that you break bad like that because you meet one person. I think that the elements of breaking bad or elements of being bad were in place prior to that. We know, for example, that she was essentially poisoning Charles. She was giving him Xanax and some other medication. They were his medications, but she was giving him those medications unknowingly.

And so you can't that's a felony, by the way. You can't if Lauren decides that she wants to give me some Xanax. I don't have any, by the way. But if she did, if she's like, I'm tired of him talking all the time, I just need to shut him up. And she sneaks some Xanax in my iced tea or something.

that's a crime, you know, because I can't consent to that. And she's given me a controlled substance without my knowledge. Right. And Lori was doing that. So, you know, which to me, you know, if I'm assessing risk, that's somebody who's poisoning their husband. And we know that she was giving her children medication, sleep medication without their consent. She was, you know, this, this is someone who,

I don't think she just broke bad overnight. This is someone who had a lot of bad tendencies or potentially maliciousness prior to meeting Chad. I think there's an element maybe of cruelty and maybe even a sadistic quality to Lori that exists prior to Chad. Do I think that she was...

Brainwashed overnight by Chad Daybell. No, I don't see that. I think there were a lot of elements in place prior to that where she was moving in the direction of extremism and extreme beliefs. I want to, there was an interview that I did with, there was an interview I did with Lori Daybell's cousin.

interviewed her during the trial, and she explained a moment where they were out with some boys in a Jeep, all having fun. They were close to the same age. And one of the boys they were with sped up and hit a cat.

And the cousin was really traumatized by it and wanted to run back and check on the cat and was so overwhelmed. And her experience was she looked over and saw Lori just laughing, you know, just laughing. And I think that explains who Lori might have been prior to everything. That doesn't mean that she would have one day did what she did, but I think it explains John's Breaking Bad theory as well.

There are some underlining, very concerning red flags with her. And that's just one example. It's interesting, too, because there have been cases in which I've shared where, and

both people maybe have this kind of deep-rooted evilness in them or callousness and it doesn't really come to the surface and bubble up until they meet another person who's like-minded and also shares those traits and then it becomes the perfect storm the perfect recipe for just dangerous activities

like a lot of these cases when two friends turn against a best friend and kill them and things like that. So is it fair to say that it's possible that maybe Laurie did have some of these characteristics or traits and a bit of evil, so to say, inside of her, and then by meeting Chad, it magnified it and they almost fueled each other and then it just took off and became something completely different?

Yeah, I think so. I think Chad definitely, whatever her underlying pathologies were, I think Chad exacerbated those pathologies and he was a catalyst. So I agree that he became a catalyst for whatever those malicious, cruel tendencies were. He brought them probably out to a greater degree.

And he empowered her, I think. And she did that to him too, by the way. I think that she, there was very much a sense in which they probably radicalized each other to some degree, if that's the right term.

Mm-hmm. So then with that mentality and kind of thinking through that, do either one of you have any theories as to why Lori didn't speak out against Chad or blame him for any of this? Because I even just as a viewer, and I've been following the case as well since it first broke during the pandemic, I...

initially thought especially when their trials were severed I was like oh they would flip on each other I would think especially if she's not under his brainwashing spell anymore like flip on him say it was your brother who Alex Cox who did all the dirty work do you have any thoughts or theories as to why she didn't do that and the rumor is that she actually was angry with her attorneys for wanting to speak out against Chad in any way

Yeah, and that is accurate. We do have sources very close to the situation. And yes, she did not want to flip on Chad. And it's interesting, Annie, because Lori actually has more to lose than Chad, which is crazy. I mean, her children are dead. Her husband is dead. Chad still has his children allegedly on his side. And he has his children who are alive. She is

Much more, I think, and has lost much more in this situation than than Chad has. And so you would think that she'd be the first to say, well, and point the finger and say, well, this is Chad. This is Chad. But yes, she absolutely, from all accounts and from her defense, is still a believer in Chad and his belief system that Chad was the.

the author, I would say, of this belief system. They definitely had some like-minded beliefs that they learned from others along the way. But when it came to this additional extremism that they wrote together, authored together, I would call him the author of it. And she very much stands by him. But I also know that that is not...

uh his he's not i don't think he's going to stand by her uh and john can talk a little bit more to that yes please elaborate because my next question was going to be something that i had mentioned on my channel when we did the recap when the verdicts were out as i was like well now

well depending on where chad's mental state is here he could easily throw this all on lori saying it was her and her brother they did everything i didn't know i would then i just tried to help with the cover up because i loved her so much so what are your thoughts on how that's going to play out yeah that seems reasonable it's he talks to his children quite a bit and in the interview they did with what was it 2020 a while ago like a year and a half ago they basically said that

They essentially said that Laurie framed Chad. So I would completely expect some type of defense that revolves around that. That Laurie, I think this is my guess, is Chad is going to argue that he didn't really believe this stuff, that it was fictional. He wrote fictional books and then she took it literally and believed it and acted it out and he didn't know about it.

I mean, I don't know how far she can go with this. It has to be rooted in reality. That's their problem. But he can say she didn't really – she believed it, wholeheartedly acted on it, brought in Alex Cox, did this all on her own. He was shocked when he learned about it. He tried to distance himself. I don't know. I mean, again, if he says that he was part of the cover-up, that's a problem for him. So like you said, Annie, that he might –

He might have to say something, right? Because they've got so much evidence of his involvement. But if he wants to go for an acquittal, I think he's got to go to pretty extreme lengths to say, I didn't believe the stuff she did. She acted on it. She brought Alex in. I really didn't know. And she set me up.

That's an interesting perspective for him to do that because part of me questioned would he maybe agree to a plea deal for a lesser charge if it was just part of like the cover up piece of it. But then it's also like you have the information about his wife, Tammy, and implicating that and her cause of death, which it's like.

if he does try to peddle this story of, it was all fiction on my end, Lori took it and ran with it, whether he helped with the cover-up or not, it doesn't explain away what happened to Tammy and his involvement potentially with that because she was only charged and convicted of conspiracy. So I guess then the lines start to get a little bit blurry between that. Well, I totally agree. Tammy's the biggest obstacle Chad has for sure.

Because he's essentially the first one to see and find the body. And he changed his story like 10 times. Tammy's a big problem, but I think the way he would deal with that is he would blame it all on Alex Cox. Alex Cox was parked down the road. Alex Cox somehow found her when he was asleep. Whatever, right? I mean, I don't know the story. But, you know, when Chad was first...

arrested and he was sitting in jail, we had some inside sources that were telling us that he was in shock. He was in disbelief that he couldn't understand why he was in jail. Like there's a part of him that really thinks he had nothing to do with this. So right. So I don't. Which is so crazy though, because of that phone call with Lori, when they were on the property, you can tell just by what he's saying to her that he knows exactly what they're going to find. And that's so crazy to me.

I it's crazy to us too right I don't I mean he's he's he's I so but but if he really truly has somehow convinced himself of his innocence then yes he has to I think he has to pin almost all of it on Lori and Alex Cox so I and I mean the the problem that a defense attorney has with that line of argument is can you sell it to a jury

You know, juries are looking for stories that are coherent and fit the evidence and make sense. And so if you sell the jury a story that's like too outlandish, then you got a problem. And there's also a lot of evidence out there that shows that Chad was saying that his works of fiction were real and that his visions were real, right? And so if he comes in and says, well, I didn't really believe this stuff. It was really all a fiction. I made it up. I wrote fictional books.

Does the jury buy that? That's the risk that he has. Does he try to find some middle ground where he takes some responsibility? And maybe, like you said, maybe he opts for a plea deal where he takes like 30 years as opposed to the death penalty. I don't know. But I mean, if the Chad that we heard about initially that was just in disbelief that he was sitting in jail, if that's the same guy,

then I don't see him negotiating at all with the state. So I don't know. It is an interesting issue. Chad is very literal. And so the disbelief was, if I didn't do it, as in if Alex Cox did all of the killings, then why am I here in jail? And there's a part of us that, there's a part of him, I think, that literally thinks that like, well, if I didn't do it,

then I'm innocent. That's how literal and rigid Chad Daybell is. I think we got a glimpse of how he's going to defend himself too with the prosecution, which is odd because the prosecution is going to prosecute Chad and, and,

that Chad was responsible. But for a moment, the prosecution in a slight odd way had to defend Chad for a moment at the very end. As you pointed out, the defense did say at the very, very end, they blamed Chad Daybell for

for Laurie at the very end, closing arguments. And they had not done that before, which really confused people. Why all of a sudden is the defense now blaming Chad Daybell on the last day of trial? And it's because of what we said. Laurie didn't want them to throw the defense. Laurie did not want her defense team to throw Chad under the bus. And so it wasn't until she had agreed not to testify, which was also a mystery. They didn't know if she was going to ask for that or not. Once she decided not to testify, that is when Archibald

through Chad Dable under the bus. So in a rebuttal, the prosecution had to, in an odd way, defend Chad to show how Lori manipulated. Does that make sense? They had to rebut that. And what the prosecution said was, well, Lori manipulated Chad so much with sex. And they pointed that out, that she used sex as a tool to manipulate Chad

Chad, I thought that was really interesting. And I speculate from that, that John Pryor, now it'll be the defense's turn to defend Chad, will use that against Lori. I think we're going to see some really interesting and maybe even some sexist type things coming up in the defense about how Lori, you know, did that, which, you know, it's interesting. But there's a little thought to me. Just a little tidbit. The defense,

When Archibald referred to Chad's books as being stupid, I think that was like a precious moment to me because it showed his anger in a way, right? It showed that this is a guy who felt like he had his hands tied behind his back during this defense because Laurie didn't want him to go after Chad. And at the very end, I don't know if – I assume he made that decision on his own, it seems –

Yeah, because Laurie seemed upset by it after a little bit bothered. Yeah, for sure. I mean, those books are scripture according to them. Oh, it was great. He just roasted him. It was great. Like, he makes no money. He's not attractive compared to Charles. He looks for a joke. Right. Yeah, he like totally took the gloves off and...

But I think that's a glimpse of what he wanted to do throughout the trial. You see kind of his frustrations there. And that's not a good thing for a defense attorney to do. I mean, I actually thought Archibald was quite good, given what he had, given the evidence, given what he was working with. But I think in that moment,

You know, you definitely could see his frustration. And it was certainly an interesting part of the trial. I love that, Annie. I'm like you. Yeah, the Chad Daybell roast. It was just like, he's like, this guy's ugly. Like, it wasn't even like this, like, scientific defense. It was like, guys, look at a picture of Chad Daybell and then look at a picture of Charles Ballot. You think this is about sex? Exactly. Exactly. It's so great.

referred to him as Peter Griffin, I lost my mind when that phone call was released. I was just dying laughing because it's like, and I try not to get so petty and caught up in that, but it's like, you can't help it because for me, at least there's just something about Chad's face that just like every time it pops into my mind, it just irks me to my core. And then knowing what they allegedly did to those kids, well, him allegedly, Lori, yes. It just, it makes me hate him so much. And what I wouldn't give,

to hear from Alex Cox. Like, what I would not give to hear his story of all of this and the truth that actually happened because I think he holds the answers and the keys to everything.

- Agree, and I think they knew that. I'm on team Alex Cox did not die of natural causes. - Same. I'm not trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but it's like the fact that he died the day after Tammy was exhumed and he was the one who had the wealth of information and knowledge and was gonna be the fall guy. I mean, it's way too convenient to me, way too convenient. Do you think that Alex had confided in any of the specifics to Zulema? Do you think she knows more than she's let on? - You know,

the Zulama thing was weird and maybe it was because she followed Melanie Gibb and I'll I've been very honest I'm not a Melanie Gibb fan but um I thought Zulama I would love the opinion of your team that was there I know that you had team members there at the trial and like I'd love your their opinion but for me I thought Zulama did a good job on her testimony and after I listened to her I thought maybe

And I'm trying to be, I'm not even trying to be mean here. Like maybe she's just not very smart. Like maybe she really is that naive and that like,

You know, I was like, okay, maybe. And I'm not saying whether she is or isn't because there are a lot of things that she did and we can go over A, B, C, and D. And I am livid that none of these adults screamed to authorities. So I'm not defending her by saying that. I don't know. You'd have to ask, you know, John has kind of analyzed her police interviews or whatever, but I do feel overall, Annie, that there were so many adults that could have said things that

two authorities that didn't and it maddens me it angers me so much i do believe that a lot of them knew more and maybe they just believed you know maybe they just believed i think that zulama had the opportunity to absolutely know more and see what was going on even when she was questioning alex she admits that she was saying what's going on did something happen to tabby what's going on she still didn't go to authorities after that so she's not off the hook

But as far as maybe her being a firm believer, maybe, maybe, I don't know. I don't know. Melanie Gibbs, don't get me started on her. But yeah. I agree with you. It is extremely frustrating seeing all of the adults that failed these kids because as parents, I'm sure you can relate just like me. It's like the second, my sister, I don't care if it's my sister, my best friend, my neighbor. So if somebody comes to me and says, that child has a dark reading, a dark level of X, they're a zombie. Yeah.

"Ugh, something ain't right here. Something, you know, it's not working for me." So that's when the red flags and red lights start going off and that's your job as an adult, a grown adult who has a mind and a brain that works to raise your hand and say, "Something's up here and I need to talk to somebody." Not, "Oh, well, that's unfortunate." Or, "Wow, you're right. What are you even talking about? It is just so frustrating." So Dr. John, what are your thoughts on Zulema? What do you make of her?

are you are you referring back to whether she knows more than she's telling us or just in general maybe she i mean i guess a little bit of both the two-parter in general just her as a person but then also yeah do you think that it's possible she knows more and maybe she's trying to in a weird way protect alex's memory and who he was by holding it back i i think

With Zulema, I don't see her as a master manipulator. So, I mean, I kind of wanted to, and that was sort of the narrative when I looked at her interview. But I really think there's sort of this naivete. I don't want to say innocence, but there's like this naivete to her. And I don't – I really – I think she's more or less believable. Maybe not completely believable, but I think she –

I think if she had a lot to convey, she probably would. So, um, maybe not all the lights are on upstairs. Yeah. Yeah. Me and Lauren are on the same page. Say what you can't. Yeah, exactly. You be the professor. Yeah. Just start talking.

Okay. All right. Fair enough. Well, she was a lot more forthcoming in her testimony than, again, Gibb was. I'll give her that. Yeah, I'm not a big Gibb fan myself. Yeah.

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paid for by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Well, I want to switch gears a little bit now. I still have so many questions, of course, about Lori and Chad, and I feel like I could just talk forever about that. But I want to shift gears over to Brian Koberger because, of course,

there is no shortage of just craziness within that case so many questions so getting your insight and your way in is so important to me and i know the listeners are going to want to get that as well so i kind of want to just start with that as far as and for those of you listening if you've been living under a rock brian coberger is of course the accused murder of the four idaho students from back in november of 2022 but i would love

Just know a little bit more about the psychological traits and what really qualifies a person who goes in and not only kills strangers, but if it was a quadruple murder. So that amount, which my personal opinion is I don't think it was ever meant to be a quadruple murder, but also then why use a knife rather than a gun? What are some of those psychological traits?

and before he starts he's thinking about it I just want to say that John gave John gave a great profile before we even learned who Brian coberger was um this is me just admiring my very intelligent husband but because I know he won't pat himself on the back but very early on I feel like

John gave a profile that is Brian Koberger. So this is the person to ask this question to John, let it out, John. My, my age range, my age range for the suspect was 18 to 28. So I just barely, that was, I just barely caught his age correctly, but it was, it was, it was, you know, lucky guess, but I actually saw the suspect as being maybe a little younger, but, um,

And 28 is a little bit older for grad school. But arguably, he's more like someone who's younger in that sense, I think. So his age may not be indicative of kind of his emotional state. But it's clearly someone who's got a lot of rage. It's someone who I think is very sensitive to rejection. Someone who's very callous. Someone who obviously has...

No empathy for four human beings that he literally tore apart. Right. So but I think in terms of looking at the crime itself and looking at the psychological elements of the crime, it's a crime of rage. So that that much is clear. And why choose a knife? Why choose a knife as the weapon over, say, a gun because of the rage that he and the pain he wanted to inflict?

Yes, for sure. A knife or even like strangulation, for example, and a knife are much more personal. There's much more intimacy. I know that sounds like a strange term to use with a murder, but you're close to the victim. You're seeing them struggle, right? So yes, I agree. You're seeing the pain close up. You're literally right next to the person as they're dying.

And so I think that's why a knife, right, because a gun would have been much more efficient. He could have been in and out a lot faster. You know, he could have. But also, if the theory is that he's targeting, for me, this would be my theory, is that he was targeting one of the victims. And he was, in that sense, I think that he took in a knife not expecting necessarily to murder four people.

That he there could have been, you know, he could have had some sexual thoughts or fantasies when he went in. And that was thwarted when he learned that other people were still awake and that, you know, Madison was in the same bed. Right. This probably wasn't what he thought he was going to find when he walked through the door.

It's interesting you say that because I remember in the very beginning when I had heard about this, I initially and I don't know what brought me to this conclusion, but I had thought that perhaps Kaylee was his target. And then as I started thinking more, I was like, the fact that he was in and out, that he didn't kill Dylan, thank God. But all of these things, I just started thinking, it seems like maybe he did go there with the intention of he was fixated perhaps on Maddie. I think that that is possible.

the safe assumption from a lot of people right now he didn't know kaylee was going to be there she wasn't even supposed to be there she was then in maddie's bed he was rageful about that then as he's leaving the other two roommates are still awake xana's on tick tock he has to get rid of them like it just foiled his plan

but going back to the knife piece of it too, a lot of people, and I would love to know your thoughts on this, suggest that perhaps he might be an incel of sorts and that maybe he was using the knife as an appendage, you know, how you get off sexually with that and that level of intimacy, like you had briefly mentioned earlier. Do you think in your opinion that that is a possibility? Yeah, I think there's definitely what I would call Freudian components in that sense. Yeah.

That, you know, there could very well be a sexual component. Sure. And again, we don't, you know, I'd like to know more details about who the specific target was and whether it was Maddie or Kaylee. Yeah, it's not totally clear to me. But I certainly think it seems to me, and again, this is a fact we don't know, but it seems to me that there's some component of rejection here.

there's some component of of being snubbed or rejected or ostracized in some way by one of the victims talk a little bit more about that Freudian component though because you have discussed this before with me and it is interesting well then yeah I mean it you know I mean the knife is fun I know I'm like push him a little more that's what we're like give him

The knife is clearly kind of phallic. I mean, I don't think there's any question about that. I don't know if that... I don't know if this is the type of guy that is sexually sadistic, for sure. But yeah, I mean, there would be more of a gratifying element, a sexually gratifying element with a knife than there would be with a gun, for sure. So...

But I just don't think we have enough – I don't have enough information to really know to what extent that would be true. I will say this then too, and I think he's holding back a bit, but I want to say this before we even –

who Brian Koberger was. Again, John and I were reporting on this early on in the case when nobody knew who this suspect was. And John did bring up Elliot Roger and that crime. And he compared that profile to something that he believed could be a bit of a similar crime. And

John is holding back now and he's right. We don't know Brian Koberger. We can't say, but I do want to point out that John did say that before. And I mean, I absolutely can appreciate and understand too, wanting to hold back a little bit just because there's a lot of details we don't know. And also once you start going down that path, it's very easy to just spiral because even when I first was making that connection to with Ellie Roger, I was like, and then you have Papa Roger. Was that a nod to him as like idolizing it?

and go and go and then you're like whoa okay i need to take like 30 steps back here and just like regroup for a second so hold the reins in ahead of time so that you don't go down that path right and i and that's why we appreciate you yeah yeah we all have to like hold back sometimes like hold up yeah regroup tinfoil hat off yeah i want to be a little cautious yes

So given your professional opinions too, and from experience with previous offenders or your time as a journalist, Lauren,

When the statement was first made that he had said, you know, I look forward to being exonerated. And now that coupled with him and the legal term of standing silent because there has been a lot of confusion that he actually stood and was silent with a blank stare, which is not the case. What do you make of a person who chooses to say, I look forward to being exonerated and then also standing silent? Is there any sort of overlap with the trait there? Is it somebody who truly believes that they're innocent or

Is there anything you can elaborate on that? I'll share my speculation first. Then John can like set me straight or as both straight or share. What do you think? He can go off our speculation to talk about something. Um, my thoughts are, and I, I would like his opinion. Um,

Brian Cogar seems to be a I'm smarter than everyone else type of a person. Almost this elitist type. I understand things that you guys don't. He wanted to help law enforcement. He thinks he's the smartest person in the room. That's what I think.

here and so I think he might feel that way too when it comes to the law and when it comes to attorneys and when it comes to the court and I think everything about Brian co-worker coberger is trying to be one step ahead of everybody else and so I see him as ploying and strategizing and figuring out what his best defense is saying less than he needs to saying just enough that's just how I see

Brian Koberger and someone that, you know, yeah, he definitely, I guess that's the best way to explain him. He thinks he's the smartest person in the room. We've all known that person before. And so I see everything he does as a bit of a strategy. But I, you know, John can say I'm wrong, but I'd love to hear his thoughts. Yeah, I think he's posturing. I think this is bravado. He's essentially saying to the state, let me see you make your case.

let's see what you got let's you know he's there's so much evidence here i mean yeah most of it's circumstantial but there i think there's a lot more that apparently has been collected that we we've heard about i don't we can't confirm it but uh i i think he's he's definitely kind of thumbing his nose at the state and just saying you know i'm innocent until i'm proven guilty and let's see what you got yeah show me your hand first you know bluffing yeah yeah

And based on your experience with criminals you've profiled, worked with, assessed, is there a point in time in which there's, is there a curve, I guess is my question, from when they go from fantasy to executing the crime? Like at what point does it then turn and transition from just thinking about this, just maybe fantasizing about this, to then actually executing a crime like this and committing murder?

Good question. So it's completely idiosyncratic. I wish there was a curve spell we could study. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure there's a curve, but it would be unpredictable. It's very idiosyncratic, and it's probably individualistic in terms of each particular murder. So what is the ultimate triggering of that? It's hard to say. It really varies per criminal. But one of my favorite analogies is from a British psychiatrist who

who talks about that murder is like a bicycle lock. And you start with some broad things like childhood experiences, family experiences, and then you work your way down to the final piece, to the final lock. And when you turn that final lock and you end up committing murder, it's very particular and very idiosyncratic to that particular person. So in terms of Koberger, I think there's this attempt to...

Okay, so you guys can see we had a little bit of a change up here with the tech. You guys know the time. I know that I am no stranger to it. So now we just have Lauren and John just super close and they're going to finish this interview just with the closeness, which we love. So my next question for you, Dr. John, is for some of these offenders, you were talking about the difference of how it can go full circle. And actually, maybe that's where we had left off before the tech got wonky when you were talking about

the analogy about where it's going through the whole phase to where it's then this unlock after they go through the family things, then they graduate to kind of this final step. And so you were saying how that's related to Brian. So we'll start there. Yeah, I think I really think that Brian Koberger's interest in criminal justice and criminal psychology to some degree was related to an attempt to manage some of his violent impulses and violent thoughts.

And I feel like there's also this part of him that's sort of OCD or has some obsessive compulsive traits. So I think that he was having a lot of these types of thoughts and feelings. And there's a term psychologists sometimes use, which is sublimation, which is we take something negative and we try to turn it into something positive. So I think he was potentially having some of these violent thoughts and ideations that

And he gets into criminal justice because he feels like that's a place he can manage them. So he's trying to turn that into something positive through his own study and investigation in the criminal mind. But I think there might have been a point where that became overwhelming and he was just unable to manage those thoughts. And somehow they were probably, maybe they were increasing or escalating and he

Perhaps that combined with something to do with one of the victims that we don't know about. But I think all of those could have been a triggering point that when these thoughts became so overwhelming that he was unable to manage them and that his program or criminal justice wasn't really accomplishing the same goal. You know, I think there might have been some type of tipping point in there related to those elements.

With that, and that completely makes sense, absolutely, especially with trying to maybe manage because we, and we'll get to that in a minute, that he had had a lot of these struggles and thoughts since he was, you know, at a very young age. But is there any type of perpetrator that you have come across who, in their mind, they can justify the crime and they feel as though it was okay for them to do that? Or do most of them know what they're doing is wrong and they just choose not to care?

I think it seems to, with Koberger specifically, it seems to me that he probably knows what he's doing is wrong. I think with him though, there's the sense of superiority. He has this grandiosity where even though it's wrong, he thinks he can get away with it. I've talked about, I've made an analogy with this character Raskolnikov from Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. And Raskolnikov is,

has a similar type of perspective in the sense that he's invested in trying to kill a couple it turns out he kills he's he's focused on killing one person and he sees her as kind of an evil awful person and so he thinks society won't really care if i kill her right so he he wants to show that he can commit the perfect crime he can kill this person without any consequences and

And I think you have something similar here, something a little more personal in the sense that whether it's Maddie or Kaylee or whoever the intended target was, there might have been more of a personal connection. But I think because of his grandiosity, he thinks that he can get away with it. And I think because he studied criminality and the criminal mind, that somehow he believes he can pull off the perfect murder, sort of like Raskolnikov. So...

Unless Raskolnikov, like Koberger, is sort of this very intellectually detached guy who just, he's a university student, right? And he just, he's not really involved in the real world per se. And so there's, I think there's similarities in that kind of detachment that in some ways for both like Koberger and Raskolnikov, it's theoretical, right?

And so from a theoretical standpoint, these people think, oh, I can do this. I've studied this. I can pull this off. But of course, pulling it off is a much different, it's a much, right, it's much different actually committing a crime than it is thinking about a crime. And so...

That's obviously where he stumbled and ran into a lot of problems. To say the least. Yeah. Well, that's a perfect segue into my next question is, once the crime is committed and the police announce they are looking for a suspect, what would be going on psychologically in that person's mind as they're watching it unfold? I mean, we have seen bits and pieces of evidence come out that suggests perhaps the next morning he revisited the

crime scene, which would be an immediate aftermath type of thing. But for the weeks until it was announced, what would be going on in the defendant's mind? Well, as someone who's a bit obsessive, he's probably thinking about it a lot. He's probably obsessing about mistakes he made. He left some evidence behind, right? He has to be thinking about that. I think he's at some point when it looks like

the police have limited evidence and they really don't know who the suspect is, even though we now know they identified him as a suspect fairly early. I think that was actually strategy on their part to see if they could somehow bring him out in the open or kind of flush him out in the sense that would he go back to the crime scene again? Right. Would he, would he be calling talk shows? Would he, right. Would he, would he try to make his presence felt? And yeah,

And I think he was doing that to some degree, by the way. Like the Papa Rogers account? Well, yeah. Right, exactly. Yeah, if that's... I think so, yeah. I mean, I'm team... Well, yeah, we won't worry about it. But yes, I mean, I think that's what police were wondering.

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Paid for by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Right. They wanted to see if he would be active on those types of accounts or, you know, would he? I think in particular they were interested in somebody who, and they wouldn't have known this at the time, but somebody who's obsessive probably would come back and visit the scene and, you know, maybe not directly enter the crime scene, obviously, because it's off limits, but at least like

And he did. He did the next morning, yeah. But even more than that, like would he – because he'd had no reason to go back there. So as far as we know, it seems like he didn't revisit it after the morning, but I don't know for sure. No, I wouldn't say that. I don't know. We don't know. I think they were probably looking for suspicious activity or just anything that can kind of help them build that case.

Now, it's interesting because you talked about the possibility of him just having kind of this obsessive behavior, a little bit OCD with things and being fixated on if he left something behind or just replaying things over and over in his mind. So and we're not going to talk too much on this, but quickly kind of, again, just bouncing back over to the Papa Roger account that was created earlier.

does that type of person and that type of profile align with somebody who would then insert themselves into this investigation, into this case by saying before it was ever announced, I think he left the sheath behind. I think he was in and out in 14 minutes. I think this is how he entered and like leaving these breadcrumbs almost, or was this person, is that something that's not in that kind of character makeup? And was this account owner, whoever they are just,

super intelligent and had a crystal ball and knew all of those things. Right. Yeah. They probably didn't have a crystal ball. So in that sense, yes. I think somebody who's more obsessive compulsive, and again, I'm not diagnosing here. There appear to be those elements with Brian Koberger,

from other events in his life, like his diet, for example, that he's extremely restrictive about certain foods he eats and he's obsessive about his weight, right? There's certain elements that fit kind of that profile, but sure, somebody who has more obsessive tendencies is more likely to be a little bit more vocal about it. They're less likely to kind of lay dormant and

just let time pass because it's going to be, they're going to be obsessing about it. And when you obsess about something, a lot of times you feel a great deal of anxiety and stress, and there's this need to release that stress by doing something, by acting. And in fact, I think that's arguably one of the reasons why he committed the murders in the first place is because he'd been fantasizing about these murders for

for some period of time, more than likely. And there was just this incredible tension that built up and the stress. And in many cases, that type of, those types of qualities, uh,

um the only way to really to address that stress is to act and you know there's there's evidence that after he committed the murders he was more relaxed students said he was he was after the murders right after that he was different he was not grading people as harshly right so that's consistent with someone who has more of those OCD qualities that he's he's getting to the point where

He's feeling so much tension and anxiety and stress that he feels compelled to act. He just needs that trigger. And with that trigger, he finally acts and he's different. He's noticeably different in terms of his body language, in terms of his demeanor, in terms of his emotions. And students and faculty are noticing that.

Now, getting in or not getting, I should say, but staying inside his mind for a little bit longer, what would be going through his mind as he's sitting at his arraignment and he's hearing the judge relay the charges, the victim's names, what happened, almost like reliving it? Would he be paranoid? Would he be relishing in that moment, hearing that? What would be going through a criminal's mind in that moment? Yeah.

Yeah, it's hard to know for sure. What do you think? This is what I want to ask him. No, I have no answer. I'm going to just say, yeah, what Annie said. So tell us. This is what I've been wanting to ask you. Well, he seemed fairly detached to me that I think there's, I think he's trying to create some emotional distance from it. There almost seemed like a dissociative state that he, like with Lori,

Daybell in the sense that she's present but not fully present. And disassociation, by the way, is typical of trauma. And Koberger is someone who, by most accounts, suffered from a significant amount of trauma. And again, when I say these types of things, people say, oh, are you excusing him? No. I think arguably, and again, I don't know for sure. I mean, this is speculation. None of us know what a criminal is thinking precisely. Even when I sit down in a prison with a criminal,

they don't have full access to their minds either. So, right. So the criminal mind is in some ways opaque because nobody knows for sure what they're experiencing and a lot of it's unconscious. But it seems to me that there's some element of dissociation like there was with Laurie Daybell in the sense that this is someone I think that's experienced a lot of trauma as a child, a lot of bullying, and he probably developed this ability to remove himself from the situation.

and to create some distance and detachment from what was going on. And so that would be consistent with someone who's very unemotional too. And in that sense, it looked to me like he's present, but not wholly present, not fully present. Right. Yeah. And as John said, uh,

Mentioning that someone's had trauma is in no way excusing. Yeah, right. His job is to assess criminals and to figure out why A plus A equals Z. Providing reasons and motivations doesn't excuse it, even if some of those reasons happen to be based in childhood traumas or childhood adversity. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm excusing it, right? We're just trying to...

illuminate it. Of course, of course. And yeah, I understand a little bit more. I guess my question too now with the crime itself, and this is maybe a little bit of a two-parter, new information was of course released

And this week regarding Brian Koberger's parents, they were required to testify in front of a grand jury in Pennsylvania regarding a missing woman who is a 45 year old named Dana who went missing back in May of 2022, which happened to be a couple of months before Brian moved to Washington. She had been found. She unfortunately was deceased.

They haven't released, to my knowledge, the cause of death. They have only announced that she was identified through dental records. And I don't know if that's because of the level of decomposition or what the reasoning is. But it was a big announcement because, of course, then a lot of people, it begged the question,

Could Brian be responsible for another murder? Is that the ID card that possibly was found in his home? It also, I don't know if it's been confirmed, but it's been said that the parents were trying to block the subpoenas and they didn't want to testify, but then they were required to. It hasn't led to an indictment or charges or anything like that at this moment of recording, but

but taking that into consideration which i also should i guess mention too that there has been a source that has come forward saying that brian has a rock solid alibi for when she did go missing and so that he wasn't involved this is strictly to just get information about that case but of course it has everybody up in arms and everybody talking and the rumor mill going wild so i think everybody's kind of been wondering since brian was arrested was this his first crime is he a serial

In your professional opinion, is it common for a murderer, alleged murderer, but is it common for a murderer to jump directly to a quadruple murder, whether it was planned to be a quadruple or not, or be some confidence built along the way and perhaps some other victims until you then, you know, gradually get to that crescendo point of a quadruple happening?

uh again i think murders tend to be so idiosyncratic it's hard to really say with certainty so do i think that he's someone that could potentially have committed other murders or similar crimes sure you know he's given given kind of his obsessive compulsive nature or some of those qualities if you look at someone like brian coberger and you look at their history and

The history of bullying and trauma. There's probably a lot of rage. There's probably revenge fantasies. There's probably some depression in the tap a talk forum. For example, he talks about his depression. He talks about some of this. He talks about his anxiety and you probably have some shame. You probably have, uh,

issues around his masculinity. I think to some degree he probably feels emasculated because women are rejecting him all the time. I think you have a lot of elements here that could potentially lead to violent crimes. So when those began, I don't know. I think I could argue pretty strongly that those thoughts have been there for a while and he's trying to manage them through his program and through other means.

He had been a heroin addict, for example. That's a really effective... If you want to blunt your thoughts, it's a pretty good way to do it. So was he having violent thoughts back then when he was using heroin? Yeah, probably. But he wasn't acting on them more than likely. But at some point he stops heroin and these thoughts become more overwhelming. And so is it possible that he committed other violent crimes? For sure. Somebody with his...

personality and his background is going to there's going to be some risk there of violence. But when he begins to act violently or whether there's other other victims that he's sort of rehearsing with, I don't you know, it's so is it possible that that this could be one of his victims? I mean, yeah, sure it is. I think it is. But but I don't know. You know, I think we're going to have to rely on law enforcement to really

investigate more and dig up some of those details to know and as much as this could be as much as he could have had additional crimes this could also you see this could also be his first crime right yeah that he's just violent enough and violent in nature to where he did commit his first crime as a quadruple murder yeah and probably unintentionally I you know again it seems like he was it seems to me like he was probably targeting one victim

But yeah, we agree with you on that, Annie. We agree with you that it was, he didn't go in there to kill four people necessarily. Right. I don't, I don't think that was his intention. Yeah.

Well, talking to his behavior and his childhood and some of the struggles that he had faced, you guys found the form talking about the visual snow. How you guys found that, what visual snow is, and what those posts that he had made helped you guys learn about him and any insight that it provided. Yes. And this is the mic, so I'm just going to do this.

Look at this. We always use a mic stand, but I'll just- Love that. Love that. Hold it. I'm going to sing a song after. And then I'll drop it. Yeah, perfect for the mic drop. I love that. Yes, we did find the TAPA Talk Forum about visual snow or to clarify a team member who wants to remain anonymous, found,

the tap a talk forum on visual snow that whole day on January 7th, we were going over everything before we went live, confirming the facts, confirming that it was him double checking everything. They took Brian Koberger's information, all of the usernames that he has ever used, all of the emails that this person knew of that Brian Koberger ever had and

all of these things that this person knew about Brian Koberger and put them into somewhat, this is very layman's, I am not a data person, but put them into a search bar. How about that? You know how you search things? They did every possible thing they could with multiple websites where it made it possible for someone to search very detailed emails and usernames.

And so every username and every email that we had on record for Brian Kohlberger, they put into the Tap a Talk website. Thus, we found

the Visual Snow Forum. I don't know if that helps make sense of it, but that's something we've actually never shared publicly. So you know more right now. I love this. Did you find anything on dating websites for him? We still look. Our team members still exist. They still look. It's something that we're very lucky to have some really talented people. Today,

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Paid for by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. So then when you guys came across these posts, of course, I'm sure your first reaction was like, what the fuck? Like, oh my God. Like, wow, what is all this? But also what kind of insights then did it provide on who this person is and who Brian really was dealing with? We were very overwhelmed when we saw it earlier that day. And, you know, we had no plans to

go live that day or even work. I think we just finished our live the night before we do a weekly live on our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime. And so it threw everything, you know, out of sync and in a loop. And we're like, is this is this? Holy cow. And like you, Annie, we dot our I's, we cross our T's and John's going to have to read through everything before we, you know, talk about it. And we were just so excited.

overwhelmed by the amount of information and what he was sharing on this health forum. I mean, maybe John actually has some of his writings here in notes. So maybe I should hand the mic. It is funny. We're holding a mic everyone because it's usually the nightstand, but there's two of us. So I'll hand the mic over to my better half. Okay.

Yeah. Also, I just want to, and he was speculating about whether we had him on any dating sites. I'm trying to figure out what dating site. We're going to let you know. What would it be like matchserialkillers.com or something? He strikes me as somebody who would do a free site, like plenty of fish or something. Right. Probably not farmers only. No. I guess Pennsylvania, maybe. We'll check. Maybe, maybe. Violent Tinder. I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. If only they did that on dating sites, it would be easier. That's true. Yeah. Dating sites made safer by... My sister is going to kill me for saying this, but I was at dinner with her last night and she's on a dating site and she said that there was a guy she matched with or who had messaged her and in his bio, the first thing it said, it said, out on parole or out on probation or something like that, not looking for anything serious, heading back to prison soon. She's all...

Only if there were a site that where people were dedicated that way, but continue. Right. It would make it a life a lot easier. Yes. Right. You get like a check mark of blood or something to indicate that you have some history of violence. Yeah. It would save, it would save lives actually. It would. Yeah. So the Tabitalk was, it was fascinating because we, we did get a glimpse into the,

his younger mind, his adolescent mind over a period of years. So I think you could really see some of his formative development. And, you know, there's moments in the forum where he talks about, there's some really vulnerable revealing moments where he talks about hearing screams and seeing demons. And right. So, I mean, those are incredibly revealing and important moments in terms of understanding who this person is. So, yeah.

It was really a fascinating discovery, and it really helped us understand him better. You had some spots highlighted. Yeah. I mean, this is a quote from one of the things he wrote. He says, I'm stuck in the depths of my mind where I have to constantly battle my demons. He says later, I hear screams faintly, but I constantly battle away from them. So...

It's chilling. It is chilling, right? It is chilling. And I mean, of course, the question we raise in looking at something like this from such a young adolescent is, where was the help? Was there any attempt to get help? Could he have gotten help? Right? Because that's always a question that can prevent later problems if it's effective. Yeah.

Well, and I guess there's no way to know. But my question would be, too, does it stay at that level of what he was dealing with? Or as he's aging, does it progressively get, you know, more challenging to suppress and it gets harder for him and it just keeps going?

Right, exactly. If somebody, especially somebody who's a little obsessive compulsive or potentially obsessive compulsive, do these thoughts escalate? And my speculation is, yes, they do. And so hence, I think his interest in criminal justice, I think he's really, he's trying to, as I mentioned earlier, he's trying to sublimate.

these negative thoughts and these negative impulses and he's trying to create something positive from that or at least channel them in a direction that's so pro-social rather than right rather than anti-social i mean the one thing he says here reading from the same post that that john's reading from which we thought was the most profound one he says i felt like a criminal but where was my record showing that even as a child he felt like a criminal which means the

Yes. Did he think about crime? Yes. He thought about crime. He thought about probably committing crime. And, you know, so John's insight there, I find really interesting that he probably understood there was a bit of a problem there.

And so he was going to go this pro-social route, learn about criminology, maybe trying to learn about himself, try to get this internship with the police department that he was attempting to do, be an aid, you know, a teacher's aid. Of course, he was, you know, fired for that, which we find a big, you know, interesting part that we plan to talk about later on our channel. But here's another interesting quote. This is

from the same information we found. He says, I feel like an organic sack of meat with no self-worth as I am starting to view everyone as this. Right? I mean, there's a total lack of empathy there, right? Not only does he view himself as just this

organic piece of meat, I guess, is something less than human, but he's also seen other people that way. Yeah, there's no value in his life or others to him, it seems. Right, exactly. It's interesting because you both have mentioned now about the possibility of him getting into the criminal justice field to learn more about himself, to possibly control his life,

urges a little bit more and just understand that. And to my knowledge, it hasn't been proven one way or another if that research questionnaire that everybody had found with all those questions was in fact for a particular project or something of that nature. And correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't heard that it actually has been proved one way or another. But I do find it interesting because a lot of those questions were, what were you thinking in those moments?

What made you pick a particular victim over another to where it felt like either trying to create the perfect roadmap himself, or if you look at it on the other side, trying to really understand what these convicted felons were thinking to where you're like, I really am a psychopath. There is something here because my thoughts are the exact same answers that these people are providing. Yeah. So,

I think we know that this was actually part, this was going to be part of a master's thesis project that never came to fruition. So it was never actually given to criminals, but the intent was to do that. I think it, my understanding is that there simply wasn't time for

that he wasn't able to complete that because he ran out of time, but it was part of his master's program and it was real. He did create the survey and he intended to use it. He just didn't have the time or the resources to get it done. But I agree with you. I think getting back to this idea that he's in criminal justice to kind of cope with his own issues, I think that that survey is an attempt to normalize

these types of criminal thoughts, right? That he wants to ask other criminals, hey, are you experiencing what I'm experiencing? Are you thinking about killing people too? Are you thinking about violence? I think it's really his effort to feel normal and to kind of normalize what he's doing. And again, like to sublimate that. And somehow if other people are feeling the same thing that he is, even though they're criminals, he's going to take that information and use it in a positive way.

So, yeah, I think that survey is fascinating in the sense that it is another attempt by him to cope with, I think, his violent thoughts and impulses. Mm-hmm.

Well, I just want to thank you both so much because I know we've gone on way longer than I initially told you we were going to be. So I appreciate you guys sticking around through that. But just for sharing all of your thoughts, your expertise on both Valo and on Coburger, it was so extremely helpful for me to hear and talk through a lot of this. So I know that it was

helpful for a lot of the listeners and viewers. So we definitely have to do this again, but I just wanted to thank you. And before we jump off, can you just tell everybody where to follow you, your different platforms, what you guys have coming up? I know, Lauren, you mentioned you guys are going to be speaking about another detail of this case very soon and your thoughts and theories behind that. So let everybody know where they can find you.

Thank you, Annie. And thank you again for, for inviting us on. We have such a respect for your channel and your community and what you do. So, so thank you. Yeah, we're Hidden True Crime on YouTube. In fact, around across the board, except for how we started, we started on our podcast, which is Hidden, a true crime podcast. And then after we did our podcast and we, we

got our other social media accounts and our YouTube channel, everything became hidden true crime. So, so for the most part, you can find us using hidden true crime. We are at youtube.com slash hidden true crime, twitter.com slash hidden true crime. Um,

Instagram.com slash hidden true crime, Facebook.com slash hidden true crime. So there's your tip. And then of course the podcast hidden a true crime podcast. That's how we started. That's our first, but we decided to shorten it after, but yeah, on the daybell case, that podcast is, you know, that's how we started.

That's okay. On the Daybell case, that's how we, that's when we started our podcast. So our first season, Beyond the Veil, is all about the Daybell case and me asking the questions you're asking. What about this? What about that? Tell me about this.

And then we do cover, of course, the Brian Koberger, Idaho 4. And we, John, actually, this is something that not everyone knows, but Gabby Petito, we were lesser known than on YouTube. But when that Moab body cam footage came out while everyone was looking for Gabby, we,

assess that. And John said, this guy's an abuser. Can't you see this? Look at this, A, B, C, and D. And we went through that. So we have, uh, we care a lot about the Gabby Petito case. And then we cover other cases on, uh, our YouTube and podcast. So, and we're just, well, thank you. And Murdoch. Oh my goodness. Murdoch. Yeah. Oh,

I know, there's no shortage, unfortunately, right? Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, we did cover a lot of the Murdoch trial. And John gave a very unique and specific analysis and motive to those crimes. And it was, you know, a lot of that ended up, whether or not it was because of John or not, but a lot of that ended up in closing arguments. That's great. Yeah.

See, you're just the silent helper for everybody. Just behind the shelf helping everybody and keeping people safe and giving closers their argument. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I know the Murdoch thing was mind-blowing that we jumped on Murdoch like, I don't know, six days before

We had been following, but we weren't going to jump on it unless we had something to say. That's something that sets us apart. We're not just going to jump on something because it's a big crime. So right, we jumped. We've been following Murdoch, but about six days before closing arguments, we decided to say something.

Yeah, and actually that was one of the early questions that Annie asked was, how do you find crimes to talk about? And I feel like I didn't get a chance to answer that, so I'll answer that now. Yeah, perfect. I think for me, we choose crimes or I choose crimes. We talk about it together what we're going to cover, but I want them to illuminate something different about the human condition. So my criteria is kind of,

that they should be unique in the sense that they provide some insight into human beings that we can learn from and that are sufficiently different. Like Daybell's about cults, for example, and Murdoch is about family and intergenerational trauma, for example. And Koberger is about like the boogeyman coming in the middle of the, at 4am in the night with this, with a mask and a knife. Right. And he's,

he's everywhere in our dreams and our nightmares. Right. So like each of these, each of these crimes, I think really provides some unique insights into human beings. And that's kind of the criteria we use to, to choose the different crimes that we, that we talk about. So yeah,

I love that. Well, and we appreciate it as listeners and viewers that you choose those crimes because those are the ones that are always the hardest to get in the mind of and really put those puzzle pieces together. So again, when there's experts like yourselves that come on and kind of break that down and help explain that, it's just incredibly helpful. Thank you. Yeah. If we have something to say, we'll say it. We follow a lot of crimes. I'm sure you do too, Annie. And it comes down to what crimes we cover when we feel like

we can add something worthwhile and important to the conversation. That's when we'll jump on a crime. Yeah. And on that note, there's a, I was going to appear on Nancy Grace, her podcast this past week, but she canceled and probably will reschedule, but she was going to talk about Rand Hooper. I don't know if you know the Rand Hooper case, but Rand Hooper was in a boat crash with one of his close friends. And he essentially said,

His friend fell off the boat into the water and Rand Hooper essentially decided to leave the scene and leave his friend for dead. And I think, I believe his friend was still alive. His friend's name is Graham McCormick, but Graham McCormick eventually drowned and they were friends.

And so to me, it's, you know, it was an accident. It was a tragic accident. And I don't think that Rand Hooper ever intended for his friend to die at the scene of the crash. But it's a fascinating situation to me because it really gets into issues about friendship and what that means. And why would someone leave their friend to die? Right. Like it's a really unusual situation. And

To me, the most baffling part of it is that he didn't try to spot his friend in the water. He literally turned his boat around. I mean, I think a lot of that had to do with self-preservation. He was worried about the consequences, obviously. But how do you make that decision to abandon one of your best friends and let him drown and die?

Right. Like, and so, wow. How do you choose that your life is more important than his in that moment? That's unreal. Right. It's unreal. Right. And I'm still, we're still like thinking about the, you know, the repercussions of that because there's, there's so many levels at which that's just unreal.

really hard to fathom, you know, and like in the sense that a lot of our society is based on the notion of friendship to some dissents in the sense that friendship is really kind of the social glue that holds communities together in many cases. Right. And so this is in some ways a fundamental violation of that social fabric and not just a violation, but like a best friend

violating that social contract, right? So I don't know. Anyway, we're thinking about that too. So yeah, that's a very interesting one. I'll be on the lookout for that from you. Yeah, it's so peculiar. Yeah. So that's, that's the first first question you asked and our last answer. But thank you. I love it. Full circle full. I love a full circle moment.

Well, thank you both again so much for coming on. We will link all of your podcasts, your channels, your socials in the description box for those of you watching or listening. And thank you guys so much again. Thank you. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Bye. Thanks, Annie.

Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and that it was informative for you. And I hope you loved the special guests as much as I did. I just learned so much from John and Lauren. They are just such a wealth of knowledge. So I hope we can have them on again soon. All right, guys, thanks so much for tuning in to another episode of Serialistly. Please take a quick moment if you're not following the podcast already. Click that button in the corner of your podcast app. Follow along so that you don't miss any episodes.

And if you would be so kind as to leave a quick rating, maybe take 30 seconds to write a review, I would greatly, greatly appreciate it. All right, guys, thank you so much for tuning in and I will see you on the next episode of Serialistly. All right, bye true crime besties.

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