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This is Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. Today on the podcast, the first parents in the country to be directly charged for the deaths caused by their child in a mass shooting. Here's Sins of the Parents, the Crumbly Trials, produced by ABC News Studios. 911, what's the location of your emergency?
Okay, I'm not really sure. I'm at my house. There's an active shooter situation going on at the high school. My son goes to the high school. I have a missing gun at my house. I think my son took the gun. I don't know. Is it him? I don't know what's going on. I'm really freaking out.
It's a groundbreaking case that's resulted in four counts of involuntary manslaughter charges against both James and Jennifer Crumbly. Authorities say the shooter used a handgun his father had bought just days earlier. The first parents in America to be charged in a school shooting. Parents of the shooter at Oxford High School, who killed four students and wounded others in November 2021. There are very rare circumstances where
Gross negligence rises to the level where you can be charged with a serious crime. This is one of them. Crumbly's defense has said a conviction would set a dangerous precedent for unwitting parents. This case is very different. This is about parents who largely ignored their son, neglected his cries for help, and then bought him a gun. It really was just common sense. You don't get to walk away from that. You just don't. That's a criminal act.
My name is Jennifer Crumbly and I'm the defendant. I fell as a family where we were three of us really close. We did a lot of things together. I joined the ski patrol because the family can ski free also to help people out. So I got him into skiing and he would come out with me on my patrol shifts. We did a lot of board games.
Every year around Thanksgiving, we would go cut our Christmas tree down. Halloween, we grew our own pumpkins. So we always carved our own pumpkins and had a whole bunch put around the house. The Crumblies were a middle-class family. They vacationed together. They worked. I was a marketing director at a real estate acquisition company. My husband had a hard time holding down a job. He was doing DoorDash. James was a great father. He spent time with his son. No one is perfect, but James did the best he could.
They spent a lot of time together, especially during COVID. Even the morning of the shooting, James drove his son to school, which was not abnormal. That happened a lot. There was a couple of times where Ethan expressed anxiety, anxiety about what he was going to do after high school, but not to a level where I felt he needed to go see a psychiatrist or a mental health professional. As a parent, you spend your whole life trying to protect your child from
other dangers. You never would think you have to protect your child from harming somebody else. The shooting started about 12:50. He went into a bathroom with a backpack. He went into the handicapped stall and then he took a 9mm out of his backpack, he loaded it and he racked it.
He comes out of the bathroom and immediately to his left is a victim. And he shoots her and then her boyfriend was there. He put his hand up and shot him. He then quickly turned his gun to a group of four girls that were just standing there. He shot Hannah St. Juliane and she immediately fell to the ground. And I see someone dressed in dark, oversized clothing. They have the mask on.
a hat, glasses and a hood, and I lock eyes with him. I realize he's raising a gun to me. He then goes around the hallway. He might have reloaded his gun, like if you were at a gun range and practicing. Ethan then came into closer view and I could tell it was Ethan. He said, "Buddy, are you okay? What's going on?" And when he didn't respond to me and he looked away, that's when I knew it was him, that he was the shooter.
And then he continues on down the hallway and stops at the bathroom where Justin was killed. I went in the stall. I squatted on the toilet so he couldn't see my feet. It was quiet for a second and then I heard a shot. What did you see when you came out of the stall? Justin's body in a pool of blood.
Tonight, the scene tragically too familiar. Armed officers racing into school in lockdown. Bloodshed. Terrified children running for their lives. This time at Oxford High School some 40 miles north of Detroit. Oxford High School shooting in Michigan that left four students dead and seven others injured. Deputies responded and within five minutes had the suspect in custody. He gave the weapon up. He did have the weapon on him at the time. It was a semi-automatic handgun. I am charging the young man.
who took the gun into that school and shot. Hannah St. Juliana, age 14, a volleyball player and a basketball player. And her father asked me to tell you that she was one of the happiest and most joyful kids. Madison Baldwin, age 17, a talented artist and big sister. Justin Schilling, co-captain of the Oxford bowling team and a golfer. Tate Meyer, a junior football player and honor student.
Mr. Meyer asked me when I spoke to him if I had children, and I said that I did, and that I would treat this case like these are my own children. The shooting took place on a Tuesday. They presented the case the next morning on the shooter. Then over the period of Wednesday into Thursday, we received more information about what had happened leading up to the shooting.
We knew that James Crumbly called 911 and told 911 operator that he thinks his son was the shooter. We learned that he'd written a journal and he talked about wanting a gun, trying to get his parents to get him a gun. Everything else we learned just made it worse. November the 26th, they walked up to the counter and the dad said, "That's the gun I'm going to buy." And he paid in cash. They bought it. They waited for the background check to clear. Eventually did, and they walked out.
his post, and I think it was to Instagram, and it says, "Got my new beauty today." And the next day, 27th, they're at the range. He shows his mom how to use it. There was a teacher who found him researching ammunition. So then that person left a voicemail for Jennifer Crumbly. I'm calling from Oxford High School. One of his teachers had sent an email to the office just that she was concerned. He was on his phone looking at bullets.
And that's when Jennifer Crumbly texted her son. He turned in a math homework with very disturbing drawings and words on it. The counselor texted the drawings to the shooter's parents. They called the parents and said, we need you to come in. At first, Jennifer Crumbly said she can't, and she said, have you called my husband? We now have evidence to show that they were communicating with each other. Eventually, they both came in.
A school counselor told them that I think you need to get him services. You need to take him home. And both Jennifer Crumbly and James Crumbly said they couldn't do it. Neither one of them at any point said that you bought him a gun four days ago. They're being told by a school counselor, he's saying this is suicidal ideation. And they do nothing. They do less than nothing. They don't look for the gun.
One of the first questions that Karen asked was, "Where did he get the gun?" And that's when the focus turned to the parents.
As soon as I heard that they were called to the school that day, the messages about "LOL, don't get caught," those were very, very concerning to me. And so when they presented the case on the shooter, I addressed that. What about the parents? Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald announcing charges against the parents of the 15-year-old charged in this week's deadly school shooting. The facts of this case are so egregious. The notion
That a parent could read those words and also know that their son had access to a deadly weapon that they gave him is unconscionable and I think it's criminal. Thank you. We were in communications with the sheriff's office and then they went to go pick him up and they couldn't find him. So that's when things really blew up. That was national news that whole night. Do you know where the shooter's parents are right now?
I do not. I'm being briefed on any kind of update, but no, I don't. They were scheduled to surrender to authorities at 2 p.m. local time Friday, but did not appear. U.S. Marshals late Friday night put up wanted posters. We're now offering a $10,000 reward. That really wound up becoming a real sideshow. Authorities say the couple skipped their arraignment, sparking a manhunt. They went on the run and drove 40 miles south, downtown Detroit,
at a friend's art studio in a warehouse. Detroit 911, what is the address of the emergency? The parents of the shooter that are running away, they're here. And it's their car, and the woman is here. And I believe it was after midnight when the parents were captured hiding out in Detroit. On your stomach. On your fucking stomach. We have, in fact, taken into custody without incident James and Jennifer Crumley, the fugitives involved in the Oxford incident.
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Hey, Kate.
Hey, I really need quiet until I get through this brief. Everyone thinks that being a prosecutor is exciting because, you know, they see the shows. But the thing that really intrigued me about it was standing up for people who were vulnerable and that couldn't represent or advocate for themselves who had been victims of crime.
I was a public school teacher for three years and then decided to pursue a law degree. I was an assistant prosecutor in this very building, and I would walk in here every day. About 25 years ago, never imagining someday I'd be walking in with my name on the door. Good luck, sir. Let me know if anything. We're going to let David do the work, and then you can film Mark and I.
Did somebody leave this on your desk? Because, like, what's the message here? Did you get one of these? It's like a stress ball. I've been an attorney for 16 years. I've been here for 15. And I went to law school to be a prosecutor. You're coming in at a time when Karen and I have been in office now for about 18 months. When I joined the office, I spent a lot of time thinking about
the problems we might encounter. And it never occurred to me that one of them would be a school shooting. I do remember vividly at one point, we were all at the media room, and Karen said, "I want everyone to go around the room to give their opinion, but I'm telling you right now, we're charging the parents." And then she walked out.
Did you even know that nothing like that had ever been done before? No. No, but certainly understood the extraordinary set of facts. I know, I know we have a legal duty as parents to protect other people from our dangerous kid. It's okay. Sit, sit, sit, sit. Josie, chill. It's okay. Did you read that?
It wasn't earth-shattering. There'll be more and more of them. The amount of attention and significance of it. Everyone talking about what a message it sends. And I know that it does send a message. I absolutely get that. It wasn't a motivator. It really was just common sense. This is your lunch. Do you need it? We eat it? Okay. I actually do make him a salad, and about 50% of the time, he leaves it at home.
So that's highly— At least 50 percent. It's highly frustrating to me. There are many issues and motions that has to be decided by the court. Then we're also simultaneously prepping for trial, which is a giant task.
I think it's powerful when he takes the stance in the hallway and takes aim prior to shooting. I think that that image for people of his actions, it doesn't have to show... Well, actually, I think it's also to show...
That he was experienced with a firearm. And he was experienced with a firearm because the only thing his parents did with him took him to a shooting range. We could even splice that video in with the shooting range video. It's the same stance. He doesn't look like he's some kid with a gun. Do you guys think? No. I think he looks like he knows what he's doing, just doing what he was taught.
You've kind of hinted a couple of times that you have a really strong case, maybe stronger than people know publicly. When you get down to the actual elements, their big defense has been that they locked their weapon. Well, first they went to the substation and they were asked at least two or three times where the weapon was, and they never said it was locked. As your gun, it was hidden in our arm, in the case.
They said it was hidden under some clothing in an armoire. And she also lies. In the back of the police car, she says, "We had no notice. He was a perfect kid. He's never been in trouble. He gave us no issues whatsoever." He's never been in trouble. He's never done anything. Like, he's never done anything wrong. He's a good kid. Right. Why are you lying about that? Why are you trying to cover it up? And the reason you're trying to cover it up is because you did know. You did have signs. And you took them to the gun range.
I spent almost a whole weekend reviewing the Facebook messages between James and Jennifer for the last two years. And that was not easy, I'll tell you that, because those people are yikes. The life they lived was just crazy, like just completely consumed with the highs and lows of the relationship and then like the sexting and the really terrible things they'd like video of their sexual acts.
Early on, it came out that Jennifer Crumbly was having an affair. We felt it was potentially relevant because it showed how she was spending her time instead of taking care of her son. When you see what her priorities were, how much money they spent on their horses, and these are people who, like, money was tight. They had serious drinking habits. And she bought a horse while drunk for $5,000. They wound up with two horses, so that was a very expensive hobby. It's a very toxic, turbulent relationship.
but none of it was about their son. Like, none of it. Right. He had in his backpack, I don't know, maybe 50, 60 individual sheets of paper. Yes. And in fact, there's one where it says, he specifically says, "I can't wait till Tuesday."
We are all under the assumption that the math test on the 30th was his final leakage or plea for help, but it looks like he's been doing it for a while. When you speak with an expert in the area of mass shootings and school shootings in particular, there's this concept of leakage. That's when an individual who's already decided that they're going to commit this act, they're basically giving a window into their plans.
He was manifesting many, many issues for a long time. There's leakage in text messages to mom and dad, into his friend. Okay, tell me what happened at the... Did you have a meeting or...? We talked about the papers from the backpack. Right, but we don't have any evidence that they saw that. No, we don't have any evidence that they saw that. We don't know who saw it. We don't even know if it was ever turned in.
It bolsters their argument that it was the school, not the parents. Because we don't know. We just don't know who saw it or who didn't. I mean, I think we need to find out when these assignments were given. Because if he has been making these drawings for weeks, it's just more evidence of, had you paid any attention? Okay, just pushing back on that and being the only one of us here that has parented teenagers. I know you're not looking through a backpack. You're never looking through a backpack. I know that. I know that.
There's a belief that a shooter just snaps and that's just not true. There are always signs and there are always things that lead up to it. There's been a lot of talk about the bird video, which I've seen it now I guess twice. It's not easy to look at. The defendant, he's got tongs and he's got the baby bird and he dips it in water and then he
proceeds to take like a screwdriver and try to jam it into the bird's leg and see if he can tear it off. While he's doing that, he's got this kind of cooing voice. He's like, "Hey buddy, you got a boo-boo on your leg?" after he just tried to like break the bird's leg off. And we know he'd done it before when he decapitated a bird and then put it in a jar and then took it to school. In his journal, he talked about wanting to see people suffer. And yeah, a lot of people are suffering.
Also, if he feels remorse, you would think that seeing what he did would elicit some emotional response, but it has not. I think that if somebody is made out to be a bad parent, then their behavior can be contorted into criminal behavior. Maybe a parent that doesn't see the signs, a parent that doesn't know that their child is struggling with something. I think that James Crumbly was made out to be someone that he's not.
The morning of the shooting, he was a sophomore in high school's father. By 1:30 that afternoon, he was the father of a school shooter. And by December 3rd, he was a monster. And I think that that theme carried throughout the prosecution in this case. All rise. Oakland County Court is in session. The Honorable Cheryl Lee Matthews, by the will of the Lord, be seated.
Can you both raise your right hand? Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, so help you God? Yes. Yes.
Your Honor, if I may, the concern we have is we just found out two or three days ago that Ethan Crumpley's trial was moved to January. Yes, why do I care? Because we need him as a witness in this trial. This is not about the defendants wanting to throw their son under the bus or make him look bad. This is about our clients defending the case. I understand. Okay. I do.
The judge granted our request and denied their request about the hearsay. Things about the journal, the text messages between the shooter and his friend, those are huge for us. The thing that really we didn't expect today, at least, was that these defendants want to put their son on the stand to excuse their own liability. So what I would like to do now is talk about next steps. She put on the record they're going to call their own son. I just keep thinking how that might...
feel to a parent whose kid was injured or was in that school or was killed.
Because you know what they're going to ask now? The logical question they're going to ask is, oh, are you going to give him a deal to testify against his parents? Parents of injured or deceased victims are going to love, I want to hear from the kid who killed my kid. I want to hear what he has. I mean, they want. It's hard to know. It's hard to know. Some of them may react like, great, put that on the stand, right? What could he possibly say that would weaken our case? Right. Well, I just don't think we can make any assumptions about what.
how he's going to testify once he takes the stand. He hasn't seen his parents, he hasn't talked to his parents. We don't know what that first reaction is going to be when he sees his parents for the first time on the stand, if he were to testify, and how that's going to look. So I think it would be a little presumptuous for us to say that it won't have a negative impact. We don't know. Everyone who's raised children sometimes thinks I'm a less than perfect parent.
They think, you know, on my worst day, if someone captured me, I might not look that great either. Am I going to wind up on trial? Hey, Benj. Hey, good to see you. How are you? Doing well. And what's different about this is the decisions they made, both about what not to do, but what they affirmatively did. Yeah, we got some pizza. Oh, good to see you.
When I read the shooter's journal, you can see that he believed that he needed help. The opposite of love is not hate. It's just being ignored. First, I just wanted to ask you if you could tell me your first and last name. Steve St. Juliana, father of one of the victims.
And how would you describe who you are right now? Who am I right now? I'm a fraction of who I used to be. This would be the easiest way to say it. This corner just has some of Hannah's favorite things, stuffed animals and that that we got for her, well, some of the bracelets.
that they did for the girls lacrosse team. Created pictures there of her in volleyball and basketball. This will eternally be up because Hannah loved Christmas and this is a tree that we decorated now last year. Right after Thanksgiving we put it up
Yeah. Before the shooting. I don't want a decorated tree without her, so I like it just the way it is. Yeah, I mean, there's so many things that bring back memories, and you just never know how hard one's going to hit you versus another. I believe what the prosecutor is trying to accomplish in prosecuting the parents is absolutely the right thing.
My only concern really is that because of that effort, there isn't much attention being put onto the school from the prosecutor's office. What's missing from the criminal end of things is the accountability of the school. My name is Venn Johnson. I am the president of Venn Johnson Law PLC and we are the plaintiff attorneys on behalf of a number of families.
I'm Megan Gregory. I am the mom of Keegan Gregory, who was in the school that day. I'm Craig Schilling. I'm the father of Justin Schilling, one of the victims from that day. When the police dropped him off, they said to us, "Your son has witnessed things that we've never witnessed in our 20-some years of being police." I had reached out to Craig the night of the shooting and just -- I didn't know Craig, but I sent him a text and just said,
I just want you to know your son was not alone in the bathroom. My son was there and I'm sure there's a lot of questions and since he's the only one that can answer them, you know, when the time's right, please reach out. You know, it gave us some comfort knowing that, you know, he wasn't, you know, that Justin was there with somebody else. But, you know, we're still looking for answers. Our entire situation is full accountability.
Who are the ones in positions to help prevent all of this? Shooter and parents? Absolutely. But so were multiple people in the school district. And when you hear what was going on in that home, I can't feel sorry for the shooter, but he was in a environment, clearly.
If my child was saying he was seeing things or hearing voices, I would immediately be at the hospital with my child. I think there's a difference of bad parenting and gross negligence. Right? I mean, that was neglect on that child. Is there anything that you can tell me about the loss of your son? I mean, it's a very large hole. My life is, nowadays, it's ridiculous.
Families take it pretty hard. There's a big, huge hole in it. I'm looking at trying to build a bridge across the hole so I can at least get to the other side, but that's a long process. What does justice look like for you? My son asked me, why does it happen? We don't know. So this pursuit of justice is necessary to answer that question for him, not just for me, but it's also necessary for her
you know the parents of all the youth and all the other mass shootings and you know accountability is isn't just a word and this is this is life every court date that is set every piece of news every event that goes on in this case it has a serious emotional effect on so many people hi how are you i'm good how are you oh i didn't realize you guys were all here nothing like him enough
There's a mask requirement for them. Oh, there is? Yeah. Do you have one? I did not realize that. Yeah. Thank you. I think we did fine. I don't think I'm going to the courtroom. It's not in the courthouse, right? Yeah.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Is it true that on November 30th, 2021, that 9mm handgun that she used in Oxford High School was not kept in a safe or locked container? Yes, it was not locked. People are satisfied? Their big defense was, we secured the gun. Well, their son pled and gave testimony during that plea that the gun wasn't locked and that actually it was his money that they purchased. It was actually his. So they don't have that to argue anymore. So that's significant.
The court understands that there are several identified victims that may wish to speak in this case. Could you please tell me your name? I'm Raina St. Juliana. Thank you. And is there a statement you wish to share with the court this morning? Yes. The empty seat at the dining table is the loudest silence I've ever heard. We were going to be the best duo on the lacrosse field. Instead of speaking at her wedding, I spoke at her funeral. Instead of fishtailing her hair for a game, I curled her hair in a casket.
It doesn't matter if I go to her room to steal her clothes, show her an outfit, or ask for advice. I am met with silence and darkness. So since we're here and this is a way to visualize it, if you look at putting the memorial maples along the road here... We started as a family thinking of different ideas and also come up with the idea of a garden. Because that's the Hana's name. Yeah, because Hana's name means flower in Japanese.
I mean, I think it really captures Hana like really well. I think it kind of it's gonna bring people together and I don't know I guess just looking at this design it like makes you happy which I mean she has a special talent of doing is making everyone happy so I'm crying but yeah, I think it's really nice because it's something that like we get to have a say in and I
I guess it really means a lot to everyone. Okay, I really don't remember the briefing on what's happening. For the march today? So there is National Day of Action for March for Our Lives across the nation. Okay, now I know that. I mean just logistically. Logistically. The first part will be speakers and then the plan is to start marching at 10:30 to Oxford.
I have not attended any protests or announcements about gun legislation, but this march I think is really important because those are students. I'm not going to tell them no. My little sister Hannah was one of the four killed on November 30th at Oxford High School. People are killers as much as guns are enablers for those killings. My sister died because of the bullets in her body.
I am calling on all of you to take action and demand that your political representatives, regardless of party affiliation, immediately take significant and meaningful action to make changes necessary to protect us all. The responsibility I feel to contribute to a solution that weighs heavily on me. Protect our kids, not our guns. Thank you.
A lot of people own guns. I think they have a right to own guns. I grew up in a house where, you know, my dad owned guns. But owning a gun and gifting it to a minor and leaving it in a way that is so accessible and so grossly negligent, it's just, to me, it's just common sense.
This morning, opening arguments expected in an unprecedented trial. Jennifer Crumbly facing four counts of involuntary manslaughter for her alleged role in the 2021 Michigan school shooting carried out by her son. Hurry, hurry.
Anybody who does this for a living, if you're walking in the courtroom and you're feeling great, there is something really wrong. This is terrible. This is torture. This is I can't eat, sleep, I think I might throw up awfulness. Mark? Yes. I'm going to need a minute. Yes. Okay, thank you. I'm going to lift my belt. Already. I'm going to lift my belt.
Good morning everybody. I want to introduce you to Hannah St. Juliana, Madison Baldwin, Tate Muir, and Justin Schilling. They died on November the 30th of 2021.
We're here because when Jennifer looked at this drawing, she didn't look at it the way a stranger would. She looked at it knowing the context and the origin. And when someone with that kind of information looks at this, the unimaginable becomes predictable. It becomes reasonably foreseeable. On my way to court today, I blasted Taylor Swift to warm up my voice and calm my nerves. And there was a line in one of her songs that said,
I locked eyes. He didn't hesitate.
What is the moment that you're going to point to a jury and say, that's the moment of gross negligence?
The day of the shooting, the moment they're in the office with their son and being shown this drawing that he made, and they didn't say anything. Blood everywhere. The thoughts won't stop. Help me. And then making a decision once a counselor tells you, "We think he needs to get some help. Here are some names." We can't. Now describe Jennifer Crumley's demeanor when she walked into your office. She sat down in the chair.
When you saw the gun drawn on the sheet, that was not enough to make you believe that
Mrs. Crumbly's son posed a risk to himself or other students, correct? I wasn't sure whether he posed a risk to himself, so that is why I called in the parents. If I believed that he was a threat to people, I would have taken different action. On November the 30th, when you met with Jennifer Crumbly, did she tell you her son had texted her that he was seeing demons? No. That she thought Ethan was depressed? No. No.
We're at the end of day three of testimony. I think it's gone really well for our side, for the prosecution. I'm just scanning back through some of the testimony that I missed, in particular looking for Shannon Smith's conduct.
We were all stunned when she gave her opening statement and said that she was listening to Taylor Swift on the way in this morning to calm her nerves and warm up her voice. And it occurred to her that band-aids over bullet holes was what this case was really about. I hope Taylor Swift heard that because it was really offensive and bizarre. Mark, do you want to...
I'm going to go through first like our outline for tomorrow. Yeah. With 13 witnesses left, we're about halfway through. How many have you guys done? Eight. We've done eight. Eight? Eight witnesses. That's it. So let's talk about the photos and how we're going to handle that tomorrow. So there's 55 photos that there's no agreement on. And we're supposed to start arguing about those tomorrow at 830. Correct.
There was a big debate at the end of the day today about showing photos of their house, which was like just a complete wreck. Because there's like booze bottles everywhere and like just clothes everywhere. Shannon Smith is saying, well, that's not relevant and it makes them look bad. And, you know, our thing is like, well, we can't change the condition of the house when the police got there. The level of...
chaos and lack of knowledge and what their kid was doing or caring. It was critical to this case and the state of his two, not one bedroom, but two because one got too messy, he just moved to the next is absolutely relevant. All right, cool. See everybody tomorrow at 8:30. At some point after we cleared the classrooms, we were told to go to the residence of Jennifer and James Crumley. So what are we looking at here in this photograph? It was in a 164.
I was made aware this was a shooter's bedroom. There was targets visible on the wall that had those apparent people with holes in them. Okay, I'm going to do another angle here. That's the same bedroom? Correct. There was things all over the floor, things all over the place, really. Now, is this the condition that this gun case and empty box of ammunition were found on November 30, 2020? Correct. And that's on the master bedroom? Yes. I talked to Mark before I left, and he clearly was, like, feeling...
There's still a lot to do. Okay, I need to call him. Hello? David said you, what are you saying about Meloche? Okay, I don't think we should call him. What were the points that you were trying to score with Meloche? Meloche is a, you know, he's the boyfriend. She can't, her cross is going to be limited because she's
They don't want it coming out. He's the boyfriend. She sought to exclude all the evidence of the boyfriend. An attorney like Shannon can feed on a witness like Brian Malosh. And we've given her nothing to eat yet. This is not a decision that the two of us are going to make the night before. It is just not. It's just not, Mark. It's going to have to be made with, like,
People who have slept and eaten dinner and breakfast and sat around the room. We're not going to make this decision right now. It's not the right thing to do. Okay, so I'll see you at 7.30. Jurors heard from a man first identified as Jennifer Crumbly's high school friend. During questioning, it was revealed he and Crumbly had been having an affair. So the first message here would actually be November the 30th. The only reason that we called Brian Malosh is that
She told him that day that she was worried her kid was going to do something stupid. You did tell the police in the interview that she said she was worried he might hurt himself or something like that. That was actually your type statement? Yes. The only reason we ever fought to admit evidence of that affair was to show that there was so much time being spent outside of work
in those endeavors, and it wasn't just one. You do know that you met her at a Costco parking lot across the street from her employer, and that would happen during the work days and during work hours. Right.
And was it a regular thing? Yes. As a juror, as a mother, as anyone, you know, does it matter to me that you were spending all of this time outside of work, during work, you know, engaged in all of that, then another three and a half hours at the stable with the horses? You know, yes, it does. Because you know where you weren't? Home with your kid or even checking in. Can you start by stating your name? It's Jennifer Crumbly.
On the day after Thanksgiving, did you know what James and your son were going to be doing that day? Him and Ethan were at the Acme firearm store looking at guns. Did they purchase a gun that day? They did. He asked me if I wanted to go to the shooting range with him, and he's never asked me, just me, to go before. I shot it a couple of times, and he did the rest. I felt it was a fun day. I felt good about it.
Do you remember Tuesday the 30th? Yes. And we heard lots of testimony already about you getting a call from Sean Hopkins. Correct. He sent me a copy of a math worksheet. What did you think when you saw that? I was a little concerned. I was pretty concerned. What was it like walking into the meeting with Mr. Hopkins and Mr. Ejak? It was pretty nonchalant. It was pretty brief. He told us that
He didn't feel my son was a risk and actually gave him the option if he wanted to stay at school or go home. My son wanted to stay at school. And then I said, I'm going to go back to work. Do you believe there were things you were thinking at the time? I should do this, but I'm not doing it. Do you look back and think that? No, I don't. I mean, I, of course I look back after this all happened and, um,
I've asked myself if I would have done anything differently and I wouldn't have. If you could change what happened, would you? Oh absolutely. I wish he would have killed us instead. I think the prosecution has done an excellent job of presenting their case. Who knows? We're talking about a jury. You know, there's 17 people in the jury box. They each have their own views and experiences and own interpretations.
I hope that they see it similar to how I do. All rise for the jury. That is correct. That is correct. That is not being correct. On count one of involuntary manslaughter as to Madison Baldwin, we find the defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter. On count two of involuntary manslaughter in regards to Tate Muir, we find the defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
A Michigan mother found guilty on all four counts of involuntary manslaughter. After a day and a half of deliberations, a Michigan jury finding Jennifer Crumbly guilty. The jury determined Crumbly failed in her duty as a parent by ignoring the signs of her son's deteriorating mental health. Jennifer Crumbly is the first U.S. parent convicted of manslaughter over a mass shooting.
carried out by their own child. It is a historic decision. This is a landmark ruling. There's no doubt that this will be seen as a very significant moment. If you start using the Crumbly case as a precedent, how many parents who are good parents will get caught in this now? Getting ready for the second trial, it's no longer a first, so it's a little bit different. I think most, if not all, of the jurors know that Jennifer Crumbly was found guilty.
It just changes the dynamic a little bit. You understand that you are charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter? Yes.
Woof, woof, woof. Woof, woof, woof, woof.
So we're going to Oxford. I'm Gregory Baldry, foreman for the James Crumbly trial. So I guess East Street's right up here. The Crumbly family lived there. And the high school will be right up here at the top of the hill. I appreciate you taking it up. It was definitely a sad day. The first thing I could think of was, how did a kid get a gun? James Crumbly will go on trial following the conviction of his wife, Jennifer Crumbly, on similar charges.
I felt very strongly about what my approach was going to be to this case and what my defense was going to be. I do believe what I'm fighting for in this case. I believed it from the beginning. The shooter's case is done. The shooter's mother, Jennifer Crumbly, her case is done.
We're here to decide the level of gross negligence of James Crumlin and you will learn throughout this trial that he was the adult out of anyone in the world in the best position to prevent these kids deaths. This nightmare, these murders were preventable by him, foreseeable by him.
For me, it boils down to reasonable foreseeability and whether or not James had knowledge of what his son was capable of or what his son was planning. This case is not about what happened inside of Oxford High School. This case is about what happened outside of Oxford High School.
He had no knowledge that his son had obtained access to the firearms that James thought he had responsibly hidden and prevented his son from having access to. They started with opening statements this morning. There's an issue where the defendant makes calls from the jail, and those are recorded, and the prosecution is allowed to listen to those. He's made some statements that are threatening to the prosecutor.
So this afternoon at the end of the day, I'm going to ask that the judge cut off his jail communications other than with his attorney or a clergy member. And judge, I'm happy to do that.
Okay. Your Honor, my client is not willing to agree to the order. Okay, so... It's basically restricting his ability to speak to people, Judge. I mean, it's a complete revocation, except for counsel. I'm just concerned about him being able to talk to you. Regan, we're asking that the communications be limited to only counsel and legitimate clergy during the rest of the trial. Defense counsel. Your Honor, he is not agreeing to the order.
I disagree with the prosecution's characterization of those phone calls. Some of the phone calls that the prosecution was claiming were threatening in some way were from years before the trial began. They seem more to be venting about frustrations involving the prosecution and the fact that James was still incarcerated.
It felt like the prosecution was trying to make James look bad by raising this issue after the trial had already started. Being in the public eye in the capacity that I am, particularly right now in this country, comes with a giant spoonful of threatening statements and behavior. If this were anyone else in my office, I would be stridently
insisting that it be brought to the court. She did not say hardly anything about how the gun was stored. She said, you'll hear that he didn't believe that he had access. But how will we hear that unless he testifies? Right. That is the curious thing, right? They never say, like,
Oh my God, like how did he get this gun? Right. Which like, if they were shocked, here's what it is. I got it. If they were truly shocked that he had the gun, they would have expressed that shock to law enforcement. They just would have. And there was no shock. Zero. Zero. That's a good slide for closing. Today is the part of the evening where I tell Mark, what is it you're really doing? Does it have to be done? And you probably should go home.
I will spend only as much time as I need. I am preparing for examinations for tomorrow, and it does need to be done right now. Okay, you guys. See you tomorrow. Good night. Good job today. You too. This came to me bad. Have you sold a firearm to James Crumley? Yes. Whose responsibility it is to actually make the gun say it? The buyer.
This is the pistol case that would have teamed with it. There were no locking mechanisms in it when it was found. The legal key is foreseeability. When you think about what he knew about the gun, about his son, and then he sees that drawing, what do you do? And any responsible person is going to do a couple of things. They're going to ask him what's going on, and they would look at that drawing and say, my God, that's the same gun we just bought him.
It's easy to go in hindsight on a lot of things. Based on what my concerns were, I was concerned about student well-being. We talked about hindsight in looking back at some of the, what they might call the signs when it comes to the shooter, that those weren't considered signs until after the shooting occurred. Is it your decision to testify or is your decision to remain silent?
In James's case, the jury got to hear from him. They got to hear from him on the 911 call. As he sees his son for the first time after the shooting. Those recordings allow the jury to hear from James in those moments when he's learning all of this new information and hearing from him as it happens.
Members of the jury, the evidence and arguments in this case are finished. Remember that you have taken an oath to return a true and just verdict based only on the evidence. You must not let sympathy, bias, or prejudice influence your decision. When we went into deliberation, I first said, let's find out where we're at here. We went around the table and we come up with nine guilty, two not guilty, and one undecided.
It wasn't easy, a lot of emotions, and that's why it took over 10 hours. When we were waiting for the verdict, Mark and I just left and ended up sitting out in my waiting room. We knew they were going to stay till 7:00, and it got to be like 6:50. And then we both were just like, oh, please. And then he just said, there's a verdict. Ladies and gentlemen, I know you've worked very hard. We've all been awaiting your decision. I know this was a very intense decision for you all to make.
I believe you've selected a foreperson. Who's the foreperson? You are the foreperson. Could you read the verdict, please? Count one, involuntary manslaughter as to Madison Baldwin, guilty. Count two, guilty of involuntary manslaughter as to Tate Neer. Count three, guilty of involuntary manslaughter as to Hannah St. Juliana. Count four, guilty of involuntary manslaughter as to Justin Schillen. ♪♪
No amount of years in prison is going to make their grief or pain any less. It's not going to bring anybody back. What they want most of all is just accountability. The thought that I would have put all of these people in that community and all of these victims through this journey and asked so much of them and have it not be successful was almost too much to bear.
Sins of the Parents, The Crumbly Trials was produced by ABC News Studios and is streaming on Hulu. Courtroom footage from The Crumbly Trials was provided by WXYZ in Detroit. Thanks for listening.
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