Halsey: Power Dynamics & Toxic Relationships
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What is that daddy game? IT is your founding father, alex Cooper, with call. healthy.

Welcome to color daddy. Thanks for helping me. I am so happy that we're finally doing this. I feel like i've been waiting to meet you for so long. I so thank you for coming. Um I realized that some of the daddy gay may not know that your legal name is Ashley ah and halsey is a stage name. What do the people closest .

to you call you as everyone cause me, my son just start to call my ash. I was like, you Better get IT together. I mom me to you. Okay, it's like i'm to I have to make him myself, call me mom like he goes ash and he goes what I want to call you ash and I plain IT doesn't sound like so like .

psychotics ally like .

you have to respect me and give me this is like there's no way to explain that like he is why can I call you ash if everyone else make that a great question but I like.

but I think it's the right of passage like when you become a parent. Give me at least like ten years are .

calling me like mom and mommy and then later, it's so funny. Yes, it's crazy. Is that weird if .

anyone in your life would like referred to you as housing?

Some people do like, I think it's kind of interchange able this point. I like answer to IT the same way if I was my name IT feels the same in my body know that feels like it's like IT register the same emotionally as if someone says as actually .

have you ever looked at IT like it's an alter ego recently?

Yeah OK I didn't mean to when I started IT was just a name because many names actually franjo ani and like you .

can't because be french jan .

j my name is actually fend japan. No, there was. No that wasn't happening. So just was we like an easy like monicker ah and then yeah would say like a couple years ago I started ted having thoughts like that we're like, oh, that's very healthy or like I dress like this when i'm ash and then I dress like this when i'm hosy and then I kind of was like, wow, when do I start deferentially between the two that when did they become to separate .

free year kind .

a yeah because I was kind like to happen.

What is the difference between give an example well.

you know what's funny is I think asis like like when i'm ash like i'm definitely way more I think my i'm not really certain like where that kind of started to divert. You know I mean, like what i'm home and i'm like A I like a boy clothes, short hair, like not to gender clothes but like, you know what i'm saying, right? And i'm definitely kind of I think that ash is like, less provocative.

Become very like, chill, very patient. You know what I mean? Like, very like maternal.

And then I like housie. A lot of people have this idea that i'm provocative. Or have you ever become like .

a little resentful of the persons that you've created?

Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. I think that the part part of the problem knows that, like, you know, people just kind of decide who you are based on, like when they ve got to know you, you know what I mean, like i've been seen a lot of that happening like every now then like I see like a comment under like a picture of like me in my partner and was like I thought he was eating bob ba botton in a six one from six years ago. Make you're update and I don't expect everyone to know everything about me that's going on at any given moment. But like they just locked in something from like a big press moment or like a time when I was like really on or like they were reading about me or law and they were like when that to you are forever and I like, wow, it's been like six years so much as happened .

that's like kind of a mind fuck mentally to be like, no, no, no. I've progressed and grown but you guys see this persona that like was very there in your minds and I never grew, and I look fully grown as a human being. And yet halsey is just like, almost like stuck in time for people, which I think a lot of celebrities or performers have that like, and everyone decide when they want to grow with a performer or not.

Like, yeah, it's fucking confusing. yeah. How would you describe your relationship? me?

I'm kind of different at this point. I used to be. I used to be not that way. I used to be just torture, as you know what I mean. Like I I will say like I never really felt Normal IT still doesn't like i've i've been doing this for like eleven years. You would think at this point that I would just feel like, yeah, i'm famous. I know that is not how IT is I like, so wake up every day and not only like I wake every day and i'm like, oh my god, it's more like I wake up every day like what the fuck you know what I mean and I think that I also like i've kept a lot of really Normal people around me and you know what actually that's the distinction that's when the distinction started happening was that was that when I started to become like a celebrity, like the decision between halsey and Ashley, I think is very much that like ashly stayed the same. You know we're like when out with my friends like my best friend area, um she's my best friend since was thirteen and she's like he says to me, like once a month, like a couple times a month, like will be out somewhere doing something and someone will be like whatever should be like, dude, I like just forget your famous every day the I just forget all the time and she's like lived with me she's been around for like every step of the journey she's like backstage of the vm is with me and the like the next SHE is like a very, very famous and we worry at the vm A Z yesterday how did you forget she's like you just are still so you're the exactly the thing you were no.

I mean, I do think like that so important to have though because at the end of the day, like all these people that are famous eat, you're famous for like something that you're really good at. Obviously some people are just famous because are famous, but like, sure, you are so talented and your talent has an age of famous, of course. But with that, like you are just still a human being that like likes to sleep and likes to eat and likes to show with friends and so I think having those like friends around you must still make you feel like the person from new jersey yeah just growing up and like had a talent I think that's helpful to have when do you feel most like yourself? Like what would you be doing?

I'm pretty boring. I didn't used to be like I got IT out of my system. You know what I mean? Like I had like a couple years. I look back on like right into like a black hole when I see those was like, but I was really grateful for them because I just like, did IT in a contained set of years and then i'll never have to do IT again. So like now i'm just a boring like .

you're not boring, but that I know what you're talking about. I think we all have that was like, yeah, what was I doing? What what would you say you did that was crunch.

Oh my god, there's like so many pictures of me just like fucked up, like leaving a club like like poor. I like it's like three in the morning and like what are you doing and gentle myself about IT or like times where I like, I don't know there's stuff that's like maybe crying also.

Maybe part of we am a little bit like go off like, you know like I cloud back at someone or I like you like I went off something like that and like, I see that and my god, what you were so angry and so confused and so like overwhelmed and like you had no one to help you. So have a lot of compassion for that version of me. But then there's also times around my girl, shut up, you know.

shut up. No, I think that like, no matter if your famous are not like, people can look back at old facebook photo. I was fucking Young and like I was having, I think a good time.

I think I think got a college you really mean so I didn't have like those years and it's funny the same. Like I have to seen people who will pass judgment for like photos of me and like my twenty years, like anyone in my twenty that at twenty, you know, because I was nineteen when I wrote my first bum. You know, there's like pushes of me from that time of people like, gosh, like and I think there's this almost indication of like, no class and I like, what if I were out like a university and like these pictures were just like on facebook or like whatever I was just like going like, you would just consider that a natural part of me like finding myself of like, you know but because there's this extract of expectations, I think there's like a separate judgment that passed and like I try to I tried to like contextualize IT that way and be like going you even doing the same thing if you stay in jersey, if you want to rockers know me like even worse actually.

I say if you went to rockers, you would like face up on a cag down like you have had pictures of you on the x and like IT would have been similar, if not worse. I know how do you choose what to keep private and what to put into your art in your music?

Um I don't know that I really choose OK. I think you can. I just think right what i'm feeling.

There's a song on this album called hurt feelings and it's about my dad. I've writing a song about my dad every single album and every single time. Just let me get to the time I deciding the track list. I cut the song so, like, I can do them too scare. And this time I didn't, and I put on the album, and that was like a moment for me where I was like, okay, this is something I have kept private, but now I feel ready to, like, get out there. And I feel like I A responsibility kind of.

do you have a relationship with your father? Like, does he know this is gonna be on the album?

He doesn't know it's gonna be on the album. We have a pretty complicated relationship, which is like you, I don't think that's like. And breaking, I feel like a lot of Young women have complicated relationships with their fathers. I think for me especially, you know, I started making music when I was eighteen, and I kind of started to blow up when I was nineteen. And IT just change everything about our family's dynamic because I became the bread winner and I became kind of like, you know, in a way, like I became like the matriarch, patric, of my family. And I think that you know, for a man who expand his whole life, like working really hard to support his family and then you know I kind of a come in and i'm like so kid to him and I take that role, I imagine that's probably uh just like conflicting yeah like an existence al level and I definitely showed up in our relationship and so it's affected IT since yeah I can .

imagine that was very confusing for both of you. Also, you coming in being like, I don't know what the fuck to do either like this and when you do look back, what is your earliest childhood memory that .

comes to mind is so hard. I like going to those people that doesn't remember, like a lot of their child. Od, I had, they really, I had a really hectic ick childhood.

And my parents were Young when they had me. They dropped at a college. They met fairly dickinson and jersey, and then they were like nineteen or twenty when they got pregnant.

They they only known each other like a couple months. And you know, they both drubbed out and started their family with me. We moved all the time every year. We moved like I was out to school until, like high school, I was in out of school longer for than like two years. And I was always starting over in a new place.

We were just trying to go where there was a cheaper apartments, Better jobs and parents working like multiple jobs, like my experience felt so irrelevant to like what they were going through. You know what? I me was like my I think that when I look back on my childhood, my my experience was very much to just like knock at in the way of because of how hard IT was. And like I failed that that miserably and I was getting in the way all of the you know what I mean and then I I feel like that has probably attributed like why I in like a line of work that I mean because it's like world looking to satisfy some sort of like now I don't say need for attention because I fact that augment ory, but like maybe like we're looking for our voice on our experience to matter, you know.

But don't you feel like even here and you say that like I was always in the way, like, yeah but I feel like that's what kids are supposed to like. I imagine you though, like under those circumstances of your parents constantly having to move, you were like hyper aware of just like stay over here, like don't do anything. Don't like get in the way like i'm not that important right now. Do you remember like what you felt about when you would like view your parents like romantic relationship?

My parents were like, really like. I guess, kind of volatile, like they were either like super in love and like cutted on the couch, like laid the fuck up, like going on dates, obsessed to each other, like kids, or they were like each other throat. There is like, no, no in between and you know like i've actually never really talked about this before, but my household was like pretty um my household was pretty volatile. You know what I mean like there is a lot of like there is a lot of like aggression, you know I mean um and aggression just like throne in every direction like you know and I think that it's so funny because I it's so obvious that you we witness that you form that is your perception of not necessarily what love is but what's acceptable in love, you know and then that you apply that when I look on past relationships of mine and like, okay, I like literally this is two as two equals four like, it's so simple. You know what I mean and yeah.

I think of that was that is why I went for this, but even so simple but it's like not also yeah because you don't catch yourself immediately doing IT and then when it's like a pattern, then you're like, wow.

I know and then it's funny because you think you do the work and then like a different promotions and up or it's like a case you're like art. I'm gonna tolerate like violence or aggression or like whatever IT is because I experienced IT um but now i'm going to unlearn that so never happens again. And then you into another relationship like this ones Better because is not like the last one.

And then like a different thing, sneak in. You know me it's like put the persons like putting you down and other like I don't know, like glide ting you or like what everything you're like. This is a whole other thing. This is the whole of the thing.

Is that all just my childhood again? Because you're like, oh, maybe it's not like physical this time, but it's like emotional this time, but it's all under this impact and umbrella totally first, all thank you for sharing that because I feel like you're someone that like your when you write in your songs, I can so fucking powerful.

I think a lot of people connect to you on how really you are in your lyrics, especially this new album coming out when I was listening to what I was like. And I feel like I need to pull over like this is this is like it's very heavy and emotional here and I feel for you, but I think a lot of people can sadly relate to what you are going through when you were in those moments with your parents. And IT was at all like, were you someone that would just like be alone and not tell anyone how would you like yeah basically go get through IT.

I think a kind of but in that way, I was just segregated for IT to be over. You know what I mean also like IT, IT changes hands when you're in a household like that. Like IT usually starts and it's like you can kind of feel IT happening to your mom and i'm the only daughter and the oldest OK.

Well, so there was definitely point. We're like the target kind of changed to me and you feel, I think, really alone in that in that sort of situation. I definitely just mostly coped by writing.

I've always been a writer like my whole life. And you know, I would like you to keep journals and they keep diary and stuff like that. And I write a law and I I was someone who kind like I was into escape ism for sure. Yeah, you mean like novels and like just putting myself into like other worlds that just felt like different than mine.

Yeah would you ever talk to your mom like about IT and SHE?

I have, okay, yeah, no, I have. My mom is super close. okay. yeah. She's like my mom is like my my best friend. And you know we have talked about IT and like I think there's a couple stages of IT rakes and there's the first part we have to be like y why didn't you stand up for me? And then this the second part, we've to be like also, I forgive you, you are going through a lot and then there's like third part of IT, which is like there's still stuff you do today that pisses me the fuck off.

But I understand why now because you know you've been conditioned you know mean in a certain way yeah like you have to have just like so much Grace and and understanding and look at a certain point, you have to just decide you have to decide what's forgivable, right? And some things are and some things are. And like I don't stand by the thing with people where it's like, oh like there are your parents.

Like whatever IT is is not that series. Like you know you have to you have to just like make sure you keep the relationship like I don't agree with that at all, but then at the same time I also don't agree with the idea like we should punish our parents forever for what they did do us. It's like some things you forgive, some you don't. That's up to you to .

decide the good point and IT takes so much fucking time because like the resent and I feel that goes in and now like yeah coming out where you're at in life like you like okay, we're feeling good now and then like something like trigger you and reminds you of something they did when you were Younger. You're like, oh my fucking god. Actually we're not done with this converted more, should I just remember? And it's like an endless cycle.

But I agree like IT doesn't IT can't just be black and White where you forgive or it's like all perfect, like there's gonna be conversations that keep having to happen. Yes, I think also interesting that you were talking about was like going to all these different schools like when we are Young, a huge part also of like what forms our personality and our attendance. Es is like our relationship with our friends and our peers. You going to new schools constantly like how did you approach a new school?

Um I was definitely like, this is an opportunity always like if there's something I want to try out or someone I want to be like I can do IT. One knows growing up I was like actually with a why I was like actually with two e was like one after like really short period where I was like, i'm actually but everyone calls me sky. Not true.

I made that up. I was like, nine. And then, like, I was like, years later, I was like, going to born in new york and someone to be there like sky. And I was like, what? And they like sky. Like, we went to school together and I was like, I don't even remember being that person, which is ironic now if you know anything about me, like as an artist like you like that track like your look and seem and act like different.

you know but that's kind of like fun and tough as a kid yeah you constantly not having to have this like stable foundation of around. You have like I went to the same fucking school from like kindergarten to eighth grades. So like we all knew each other as parents and we all knew each others shit, which has its prosing coins, but like constantly moving. I feel like you can yesterday invent yourself. But you also, I feel like, aren't really seen.

No, definitely not. Yeah, you're just this, a fragment of you out in the world, just like these little whispers of a person who's, like, barely even formed. Like my manager, Anthony has a too on his ARM and it's a had two of his childhood home and he was like, just like a drawing of my childhood home.

And I was like, bitch, I don't if you asked me what my childhood home was, I can't think of one because I had so many. Like, I can't. I can't picture like a childhood home. I looked like eight houses, like apartments like, you know.

mean, you couldn't even like draw something.

I mean, I would have to if if I to pick one that was like my childhood home, like maybe the house I lived in when I was in high school, but that's not really child. Now you know what I mean was like I live in so many different apartment. I lived in like flom park.

I lived in london and I lived in Clark. I lived in um like sauce I live in I just in so many different places in all these little apartments, just kind of like just like a more fig of like a bedroom. And i'm like in there with my little brother. There's like the kitchen and then like you know like the apartment complexes they all like blend into like one like when I picture IT kind of i'm .

interested to get your take on this. Like what do you think is the difference between like hyper independence were so loneliness .

um I think it's whether it's for it's a choice you know what I mean yeah I think that's kind of a difference. I think like if you're choosing to be hyper independent because it's like it's Better for you and like you function you know Better in that way versus if you're forced into hyper independence because you're not trusting or you have like an attachment issue or like you know your um you put a lot of sell, like a lot of pressure on yourself to success to accomplish that's kind of that like loneliness, like that solitude.

Like would you say you were lonely as a kid?

Oh my god, yeah, I was so lonely. I was so i'm still lonely. I'm like, you know, lonely ess is like when IT affects you. You know I feel like there's like clinical lonely ess.

You know what is like? There's like there's being sad because something happened and then there's like obviously like depression, which is like you it's clinical. I think there's a version of that with loneliness.

Ss, you know, it's like you're lonely, is people on around and you have no one to hang out with. There are loneliness is you're going through something singular and there's like deep like coronal loneliness. And I think that i've definitely felt that way for like a lot of my life.

And it's hard to fix. You know, it's like it's hard, it's hard. It's hard to get around that, especially if you become comfortable in IT.

you know well and I feel feel what you're sharing to about your life, which I appreciate you hearing all this just to pods for second mean.

so dark you're not fun. Park, I was lonely isn't cute.

Let me just say like this is the ship that I think like when we now like, listen to your music IT even adds like more context and like, in my opinion, like I feel not in a creepy way, but like I feel closer to you now because i'm like, oh, fuck like, yeah so many people are like bridge, yes, same like. You talking about your childhood, I think that when people are listening to your music IT IT is kind of helpful to know.

Like, no wonder you are lonely, because like you came from this household environment that you had to become lonely, because you constantly were just like surviving alone and like, I think that happens a lot of times when there are vital or abusive situations at home. Like if there's multiple people getting abused, you can't even connect in the moment over because you're just surviving and then you talking with your mom later on line. Like of course, you wish you guys could have a bonded over or talk about when you were that Young, but you couldn't because you didn't have the tools either view to be like, yes, this is happening something a lot times that takes getting out to be able to talk about .

that and it's generate say it's like like a lot for a lot of us. Our parents were in the generation of survival, were the first with the luxury of existential thought. No, what I mean like they didn't have the luxury to like be like putting putting thought into you know their existence like the roles and dynamic that play or like you know the reasons why they're doing something like IT was mostly just like surviving yeah you know .

i'm really interested to talk about this high school glow up that you had because I could not relate more to something. I know that you've been in the past. You were kind of like insecure, unnoticed and then going into soft more year of high school, you had this glow up. Can you talk to me about that time of your life?

Going into software are of high school. You had this glow up. Can you talk to me about that time of your life?

I was like, really underdeveloped. You know what I mean was I really skinny. I like, didn't hit puberty until, like, a lot later I was like super ty at the glasses and like, you know um so I was just a geek and then you know I hit purity and like I came back and always said that I had like huge tits and like I got contact acts like I am I also kind like that was where I sort of entered my lake. I can't entered my villain era like I was like fifteen where I was like, tired of being nerdy and geeky and I was like, fuck you guys like actually really interest and I hang out with adults like, not good. That's a whole other separate bad thing yeah but I felt very like, you know, I felt very like embolden by that and just like at school, like I don't know my copy mechanism, like not getting along with the kids I want to school with, the're not like really fitting in having a friend group was by telling myself IT didn't matter because I had like cooler, more interesting friends and people I knew most of whom were just like online like didn't really I would them in real life. I was like, you know we're talking about like you know intellectual things and like whatever else but yeah definitely um I feel like everything really changed really fast for me and I went from someone who was like who looked like a nearly ten years old when I was fifteen to like someone who is getting like tons of unwanted the sexual attention and I was like, what the fuck .

how did having like cause I experience a similar thing of like overnight going through yeah and being like no like the same guy that's like bullying the fucking shit out of me is now like wanting to like take me on a day and hold on people pizer shit like nothing change except my looks and yeah yeah now you're me like did that impact the way that you like felt about yourself?

Um I think he did in like a lot of different ways. The first was I had to like difference you know between what attention was like kindness is and what wasn't because my first instincts I was like, oh, people were being really nice to me now and I just missed the agenda completely and like that was really hard to navigate because I didn't have a lot of experience with that. And I took me a long time to learn.

Like, if someone is like giving you that kind of attention, you are not obligated to return IT. I was really afraid of like making people matter or making people not like me and like, you know, unlike the simplest levels, it's like a guy will be like an ice hole to you if you are kind of if you reject IT. And then on the worst version of IT, there's violence. You know what he means so I was kind of like it's I had to learn how to navigate like I am not obligated to concede or to give in to the sexual pursuit of me just because it's happening.

But it's hard because when you go from not experiencing any of them, but like a lot of your peers are experiencing and then all this and all this validation comes like, I remember when that happened to me, I felt at first so excited, like kind of like you're talking about there's that like excitement of validation. But underneath that, I think when I was alone I had some like anger because I was like.

totally what like is .

is is is so surface level like i've been the same person the whole time but you guys like didn't give me any fucking attention until I had hits and and yes and like.

that's what you have to start doing that would you've been nice .

to me before and if the answers no, then it's really confusing. You said once that you thought your sexiness was a superpower kind like we're talking about yeah and made IT so no one could hurt you and you would enter these rooms like .

dealing that component yeah I definitely will sexual power as like you know uh, I don't know that as a tool of acquisition, you know like I have used that in certain circumstances because it's of all that I had.

Can you ample well.

like, you know, if you're in a room full of people, especially men, you know and in this business, as I was starting my business and I was learning how to navigate the industry is not just like I write songs and like off to build a business, you know um you're in a room for the people who are more experienced than you. They're older than you. They are richer than you.

They are very often man, White men. And at the time I was, I started out by trying to be like, look how smart I am and look how much I known. And I was kind of like, okay, no, that we lots not working, okay. And then at a certain time, I think in the beginning, I kind of figured out, like, I can make all of these like really smart man dumb instantly if i'm just hot, you know like is so crazy how fast they become stupid. Like there's so they're so much power over you in the moment where you're like all the experience, the money, the power that whatever and then you have this one little magic ick in your pocket where you can just be like really and obvious that that guy like a and you're like, god, that was so easy. I like, why why wouldn't you use IT if .

you have IT then? And I think so many people can relate to this. Like, I do think, yes, like women can relate to using that part of us that is so sexualize yeah and leaning into IT, you can feel this like great, great energy from IT. And if until IT .

becomes first growth, so until IT gets gross .

and IT feels gross pretty fast, I feel like you and I think like a lot of conversation I always see online, like I know Emily radikal has like talked a lot about IT of like there's this weird fucking thing where you know you can use IT to an advantage but then you also have to like have some ability to like navigate for yourself what you're comfortable with and what you're not comfortable with. Yeah like when do you think if you have like a memory that you were like, oh I i'm taking IT too far. This actually is like i'm i'm not feeling about this.

Um I mean there's been like a couple times there is evenly like sometimes like I was you know how out would like some collaborators and IT was like lay and like someone. Was just like, we were kind of like playfully flooding in a way that was that seem really, really harmless. And then they got like, really strong and they just started kind like touching me in public.

And I was like, wow. But at the time, you know you like I was Younger than I was like you don't want to cause the scene, you don't want to like know there's other people there. You don't want them them to see you freak out and then they don't want to work with you because they think you're a drama queen and whatever else in you know and these roles, like I said, Younger minded belief systems find that have abc since changed now that i'm older. But like was this kind of things just like this isn't not worth IT, you know, it's because it's becoming unsafe. And I I don't want you know I don't want this to seem like i'm signing A A i'm signing some sort of invisible contract when i'm promising something to someone yeah you know and I think the concept of like being a Young .

person in a situation where there's a power dynamic like you're just it's such this like hard thing to explain until you're in those situations where you reference IT earlier of like I didn't want to make this person upset and I didn't want to to escalate. Where could literally get to the point where he goes like violence so you kind of just like appears the situation and I think that is where I can get really scary and and you keep just like we just kind of peace people and like make IT like I don't know everything's ine, everything's ine and it's like within you go home and you feel like gross and shi.

I had like a really strange situation a couple years ago. I mean, I guess I was quite was quite a long time ago, but I was out when I was with this, a executive like this really powerful executive who works in music in some capacity. I've been going out and like hanging out with him and like some other people at the company, like, you know, we are working together and like everything was like really fine.

Like IT was very just like celebratory and like those like industry talk, I didn't feel weird about IT all and I like, I like my two managers with me who can like older guys and I have never feel like unsafe anything. We're out one night and like he was like all like I wanna send a photo like my knee ce of us together, something like that. And okay, I like took out my phone.

I took like a self vie. The two of us and I handed in my phone and I was like, taxi to yourself, I have to be and then I went to the bathroom. When I came back, he like, came to me, my phone like this, and I saw he was going through my notes on my phone.

What is wrong with people? And I like that down. And I was like.

Actually, I didn't even want to do. I was like, frozen. I was like, I just imagine that was like an accident.

Like, did the phonics go? Like, what would the hectares happened? And then I was like to text them to himself and then delete the messages that I don't even know where these are now, like, I was like, I was like frozen, and I was like that so crazy that, like, i'm in this situation where, like, I have so much power, I have a body guard.

I, A, I, A body guard and I have, you know all the leverage in the world that, I mean, it's like exclusive space in this, like V I P, like, you know, i've reached the ranks of lake oh. I am protected or like whatever also IT may be. And then this invasive thing just happens like on a wm.

And I was like, oh my god, I was. I made me feel. I felt like he regrets to me so much.

I can made me feel I went from being like, I am like, fucking hot shit. Now, one of the big players, like I SAT on him when that happened. In that moment, I was like, you're nothing.

You're nothing. You'll always be nothing. You're still just like that fuck and girl whose like getting you know taking advantage over like men are talking about you behind your back or you're some sort of like collateral of you're nothing IT was .

so demoralizing it's so and .

so many words, things have happened to me than that. But that won't stuck out for some reason because I was so nona long right now that that's .

what I think it's. So I appreciate you sharing the details even of like you're where you your in your career you have a fucking body guard yeah I think and and you technically like we revert to that like little child of like men ruling the world in us, just having to appease them like we were talking about you in that moment like no, of course and people like why did you just say something? It's like you don't get IT until you're fucking in those moments where it's like there is kind of nothing to say, but even if you said something that you're the crazy bitch that is like no and then someone calls you slug cause and what do you mean what are you talking about? News you take, they can turn IT so fucking fast on .

you also so are you a are you like a bad bitch business woman that the other thing is at one point, you know, where's the line between like I am a powerful woman who have to stand up to myself, and the line between that and i'm a powerful woman, so I have to not let certain things bother me so that I can outplay these men in the long game.

It's so much to think about in that moment, you know I mean is like, i'm onna, let this bother me this like pathetic score me little warm action of this man when, like I could just let you go and then i'll get the last lap because i'm building my business and i'm looking out for my life and whatever. Or like, driver responsibility is a woman in a position of power to stand up for myself in that moment. I don't know which is what is expected me.

I don't think anyone in your position or anyone really in those moments knows what to do, even like the highest of powered people like and I think that's why this is a really interesting conversation because it's like you your so fucking right had you said something and made a seen then you're just like, oh, she's like, they are crazy but like known work with her anymore SHE like make stuff up and he like uses her like sexual being parts of herself as like a way to like, get people in trouble. We don't touch her anymore .

and a black widow with you and then grew later ago, okay. And then don't have .

that experience where they're never being like overly sexualized in those moments like I can't relate gotto o she's crazy.

Yeah get off of me.

whatever totally. It's not only is that the best interview because you're fabulous, it's also like I have been wanting to have these type of conversations with someone that gets IT and can talk about IT but also was not like above IT. We're like you are in IT and you've experienced IT and I think so many Young people like yeah fuck thank you for just talking about something. We don't have the answer to any of that.

I think people like so what do you do in those situations because you're like all thank you for sharing. So what's the solution? And you're like, I don't know, i'm still figuring that. I know know I mean, i'm still figuring out so many things like I even now like you know I like where the lines you know like sometimes it's just like if someone's been like a little overly friendly yeah it's hard sometimes to be like OK.

It's like because they're excited to talk to me or is IT because they're like they don't understand social cues or like, you know, what is that like? Is this worth being like? Yo.

well, yeah. And I think I had a situation that happened to me this past year, and I feel like odd because my show, you would expect me to immediately like a run and sit in front of the camera and talk about IT for all of yeah the Young people listening to me. I'm still trying to figure out like how to talk about that situation because IT is a work situation and i'm like I may see this person again yeah it's a situation works like, well.

D, like, I don't think anyone would expect me to not say something and I didn't say something in that moment and I was so uncomfortable. And it's like, I think the point is two people in seemingly positions of power yeah are sitting here acknowledging today to Young people that experience this like there is no answer. But I do think through a show like this and through your music like by us just talking about IT, writing about IT, singing about IT, IT just starts to like Normalize more of the conversation so people don't feel so ashamed to you talk to even a fucking friend.

You don't have to report something immediately, like doesn't have to go to the high level acknowledging IT. I think that is the first step to making some progress. absolutely.

It's an ongoing conversation. Also, people don't like IT when rules change. That's like the other thing is like people also don't like IT when you have like new on rules. You know like for example, like i'm top less on my album cover from my fourth record and it's like my nip was in target, like it's everywhere, but like people sometimes we're just walk into my dressing room and I go the door and the expectation is like what you should ever when you're ted and i'm okay.

Well, i'm revoking that right in this moment like i'm allowed to decide I don't want you to see me naked right now just because you've seen me naked before like i'm allowed to change my mind or like 什么 someone like， oh, like, you know, I saw you in this one interview with like this person and you were like, so touchy feeling and like, so comfortable. It's like why you being so stand offers to me. I like, I like, you don't know my relationship with that person part of that interview or like you don't know this or like, you know, I I reserve the right to change what i'm comfortable with but people don't like that.

They go, oh, you so wish what he always changing her mind, like, pick one. What is IT like? I'm allow to change my mind.

Not only are you able to change your mind, like there are different boundaries per situations you're in in life of, like you may have been having a really rough morning and so like, yeah, i'm not in the mood for this and like, no matter what, the fucker in the mood for that, okay and people that make you feel uncomfortable or like you're being unreasonable, that is a red fucking flag. Like if if someone is constantly coming at you and making you feel like your over dramatic or your being high maintenance in your pause.

I like you took away the blanket consent that I thought you gave to all of us. And like, I wanted that too. And that the reason the react in that way is because what they believe you've given them is, you know with this like hypothetical blanket concern yeah is like they see an opportunity that they want to leverage that for their own personal gain or their own whatever. And when you take that away, did it's like you've taken something from me and it's .

access to you. They feel like ownership over anyway. Like that example of your being in target, you made a decision the day of your photo shoot to do something creative and artistic that you are comfortable with that day. That does not mean that everyone in the fucking world, when you're walking on the street and yeah.

my nipple .

frever everyone to say, yeah, it's wild that they, like people, feel entitled, the entitlement to our bodies and moments if you it's crazy. I wanted talk about romantic relationships, okay, because we kind of started about your childhood. And I feel like, again, what we've been to talking about this, like they're all fucking connected. Did you tend to fall in love .

easily when you were Younger? Not what ever was Younger, actually, when I was Younger, like when I was a Young adult, definitely when I was a teenager or not so much I I wasn't like a super trusting you know I mean um when I was I think honestly, once I became famous, I think I felt faster because I was so desperate for like stability and like partnership and like I just wanted to be seen and I wanted like a constant yeah so you know I think that I A lot of the time would sort of project that onto people yeah like ignored a lot of red flags like that thing and not even like some of them super like insidious red flags, but some of them just like more harmless ones of IT. We're just not really compatible in that.

You have talked about a relationship you had when you seventeen, the guy was twenty four yeah and he was a pretty big drug added and his into drugs what drew you to that person initially?

I'm a fixer. I'm a fixer. And like, I can fix you. I can fix you like, you know, I it's funny. I felt like becoming a mom was so natural to me. I struggle with IT in the same way that every mom does at the day. I think I have so much blanket patients because of how much I might spent trying to like, fix and mother people up into that point or like my my like patience for someone not growing the way you want them to or as fast as you want them to or like whatever was like already.

So as god, my mother way before my child.

yeah seriously .

i've been mothering yes for a long time yeah no that makes sense. And I think it's a and like interesting to hear you talk about a dynamic that can be like someone struggling so much with an addiction like I had a relationship with someone that struggled a lot with addiction and I was very Young and he was older than me. Yes, and I remember the power imbaLance was like so ever present and I would feel so insecure.

And I would want to like, I think when you're the person that's not in the position of power, you find yourself like doing things to try to like even the playing field. And really, it's like kind of you appeasing them in doing what they want you to do. You feel closer to them? absolutely. Did you experience .

that with this relationship? You know. Yeah and like I think that you know part of the part of the problem, I think when you romantically involved with someone who is in active addiction is that there's no logic, right? So you try to reason with them and you try to go like, okay, well, can you see that if you do this, then IT hurts me and then I feel this way.

You're like, you did that. I watched you do IT. And like they live in a completely different reality that they have constructed to, you know, as as a survival mechanism to not think about the fact that they are an active edition.

So you're arguing with someone or you're reasoning with someone based on reality and like that's not there reality. So there there's no you can't you can't like reason with someone who's not living in a world of reason. And then IT turns into like this cognitive dissents like thoughts spiral where you start to feel like you're crazy.

You start to go insane because there is no growth. IT feels like growth when they are right. They're not on drugs. So then you're getting closer and you feel over so back and happens again in the york, we know. But then the progress that feels like progress, it's just, just, just getting a little bit back to like Normal.

It's like it's a really, really difficult spiral that I like empathy with anyone going through IT right now that's listening of like you're not crazy. And I do agree that a lot of people in those positions want to fix things. You can't fix someone that's going through that.

And I think a lot of times we feel like we can yeah you can't. And I I know it's easier said than done, but like once you get out of those moments, you obviously have clearly but when you're in IT, like I just have empathy for like friends going through other people listening like it's fucked in hard. And again, there is no solution that we're providing today. I think it's just like talking about the real shit that you go through.

I needed someone to tell me at that time, like you're not a bad person. If you leave someone who's like hurting you, you know what I mean because like I was always kind of like making excuses for those things in being like a but what kind of person in my if I leave someone who's like in this great of need, and I really needed someone to be like, baby, that not responsibility, you know I mean, especially because I was just so Young, and also I had to unlearn this thing that I was going through at that time where I was like, i've spent so long in just like misery, wanting to fix this person.

What if they get Better one day than someone else is to have a Better version of them that I worked so hard to build and and it's like, that is what keep to me and I was being like, well, no one day, like they're gonna a get Better than someone else is going to get to have the version of them. When I was dreamed what existed and all I got was just like the suffering. And then what am I am just like the lesson and the marter. I'm the catalyst. I I exist in their life, just they could go be Better for someone else like and I was like determined to do not have that because I also had felt like losing, had also deconstruct that to that thing of like winning and losing as I know, baby, this is your life doesn't about winning or losing, you know, I know, sorry.

is going to. I'm more just like speeches because I don't think i've ever heard someone like articulated so perfectly that I can imagine everyone listen, right? I was like maybe like pulling over the side of the road, just like have pause because it's so fucking real. Like most of those relationships, you go to the very possible and to the point that like you even are at risk of your own life, when you go that back and far down with someone to to leave feels like but what was this all for? Ah and it's like it's just gonna keep going here.

It's like giving up, but it's not it's like making you're making like a it's a good IT is a hard choice. I think that I started learning like in a way you really do become someone when you're spending that among a time connecting A C level. Now like if I look at my partner and I wouldn't want to to be them, if I wouldn't want to be just like them, I probably shouldn't be with them. Like you should kind of really only be spending that amount of time and putting that much love and connection and vulnerability into a person if like, you know if you would be OK becoming them as a result. Yeah, you know .

you're preaching right now. I'm like, keep going. You're giving us a ted talk.

In one of your poems you wrote, I won't love a man unless he is angry because of my father. yeah. How did Normalizing anger in these relationships that you are having make you more willing to put up with the things that .

they were doing? And I think that I, well, first, all I had to change the way that I talk to myself. You know what I mean, like, I had a ther's once was who was like, a was like, I was, I was talking them about a partner.

And I was like, they just like constantly tell me or make me feel like i'm not special or like, you know, I like i'm embarrassing sing or like i'm weaker, i'm like, I don't know things. The first musical you question, do you think you're special? And I was like, no, i'm no, I don't. What I am Better than everybody is that he was to ask you think your just and what do you tell you yourself like in the situations like how do you talk to yourself?

And was like why I just try to remind myself like, you know, like you have to be humble and like you're not Better than everybody else and like you're not special and like you know, and you said, okay, he was sick so if that's how you talk to yourself, then when someone else talks to you the same way, you're not going to notice that that's out of the norm. You know what I mean? Like that's if you if you if you're communicating with yourself in that way that if you believe those things, you know as a yeah but it's one thing for me to humble myself, but I want my partner to build me up.

And they're like, no, how you have to build yourself up. That's not you can depend on another person to do that, which is a really interesting conversation because I fix sometimes we go into therapy so often when we're struggling with relationships and we lect what's wrong with all these people. And then there comes apart where you have to take responsibility.

You know, like one of things I have start, I had to take responsibility for for to end up in a healthy relationship, was sort of this like toxic empathy, and like this this sort of like toxic um not like people pleasing but I was like I was realizing that if I don't set clear boundaries for myself and people were repeatedly cross those boundaries, it's my folk. I'm not giving them not communicating with them or giving them a chance to learn that that's a boundary and then also is building up, building up, building up, building up and an a blowing up out of resentment. But they're confused because I never told them that that boundary crossed.

And so, you know, that was a moment of I was like, oh god, like I ask. I have to also take responsibility, you know or like because I had went through a face. I think I was really like, I don't even like, I don't even ask my partner for anything. I take care of all my own stuff.

I don't bring myself into the relationship, but I asking them to like support me or emotionally whatever like I literally just like I take care of all my own should and I take care of them and still they can't even like be there for me in the five percent i'm actually asking them to and he was like, we are not showing up honestly SHE was like your napping yourself. SHE was like you think that they're being like dishonest or they're being disingenuous like pitch. So are you.

And just because you think it's an a nice way IT doesn't mean that it's OK like you're like you just like self sacrifice, seeing act or whatever is actually you showing up and lying to them and that that shop me because when chief said that I was like, well, no, I I didn't do anything wrong. You telling me I did something wrong and then I don't look at that and I had to be like, damn, okay, you're right, you're right. I'm showing up dioneo ly, even if it's well intending just.

yeah, you have a great place. Who was the area you will be this person go is so fucking through like not communicating something to your partner that you're like something is like festering inside of you. When you're watching IT all the time being so upset and they have no fucking idea you're upset about IT.

It's like how would they know you're upset if you don't tell them your set in one of your new songs, panic attack I was listening to IT. I was like, this is the most reliable thing i've ever fucking heard and so many people, when they hear the songs like, yes, thank you. See, I am I, I have to be there. You talk about struggling essentially to differentiate. Like am I having this like these panic attack feelings or am I falling in love and like what is the fucking difference ah can you talk about from your experience like how those two are kind of similar in the beginning phase of a relationship?

Yeah I think like, you know, if you are like anise sly attached, like you can get those feelings of like nervous, like and it's really easy to misinterpret those. I said this a long time ago. I'd like a song from my a couple years ago from an album, meaning a song called graveyard, like in the bridge is say, it's funny how the warning science can feel like butterflies and so like kind touched on painting attacks like a more expanded version of that, which is like, you know, there is that moment kind of of like, you know, your hearts for can beating out of each chest when their name pops up on your phone.

What's that about? Is that because you're now entering this like dope mean cycle of like, you know you actually aren't sure like if you're not sure there's gonna answer you and then IT excited to you when they do, I don't think that's love. I don't think so. You shouldn't be putting that left of energy into a person if you're not sure that they're gonna have the decency to respond to your message. It's so confusing.

And I love that you wrote a grave. Yc, because I was like going to a reference out and like, no, but we have like a new .

and version.

Yeah and yeah. And I feel like those butterfly warning science are so easily misconstrued in the beginning phase. And I empathy a lot because it's hard until you start to just have your life experiences and go through multiple relationships.

And it's that again, us not giving you guys is the answer. But knowing like the more you experience, the easier IT is to kind of be like, no, no, no, i've felt that way before and I know how this goes down, like I need to pump the brakes. But the beginning of relationships can be very hard to discern. Yeah, is this excitement or is this because this person is essentially like love bombing me or whatever the fuck is going on, or is IT like slightly mentally abusive? But i'm seeing this as, like he finally is giving me attention.

Oh my god. Variation also x like toxic and relationships as addictive. IT is absolutely addictive. It's just like a cycle of like north mean, like that sick in a gentle chemical, you know, I mean and like to be mean and like you start to build patterns and like neural pathways to the option downs of feeling that like rejection validation, rejection validation and validation.

And I remember when I kind of like when I had had like some distance from, like my most toxic relationship, and I was in relationships that I do remember the times coping kind of leg. I don't want to say this is any kind of leg this to the people who might hear themselves in this conversation, because, you know, this, this is, this isn't a dist. But I did find myself kind of board, and they are not bored with them, but bored with the lack of intensity and the lack of the up and down. And kind of just like wondering if, because I had experienced such housing laws in a toxic relationship, if every other form of love was gonna feel like lessons satisfactory to me. So .

real.

Yeah, like that. So fuck, it's not true because i'm very much in love now and i'm going to, yes, see that same girl. I will say if anyone listening, that's not true.

But I do you think there's a period of time where like safety comes, where you just kind of feel like that just doesn't hit the same and like you can't go back? I did I definitely was like all I wonder if i'm just gonna a be. Like, what is IT for me is IT contentment, is IT settling. Is IT settling for safety? Do I get to have that same intensity without all the danger, you know?

And I feel like something I had to learn along the way, and everyone has to like take their time with IT is like, you're right, the toxicity is addicting, but there is such a difference between like safe and boring or just not the same thing here. And I can take you a really long time, but understandably, if you're on the fuck and roller coast arrive and then you're slowly just like sitting in the little the like the game that you're just like riding around and it's slow, you're like this isn't fucked in fun. I wanted screaming my head off and I want to have my hero over the place.

What if we told you that, like, ten people died on that? right? Like last week. Like, what was fun though?

Keep going back. And it's like, why do we do this tore sales because I was gonna you about like you have written about these like balls to relationships that you've been in. And like when you do get out of them, I guess you just answered red IT of like what do you learn about yourself then when you get into new relationships that aren't as volute? And it's like, I guess your answer was like kind of learning to be OK with peace a little .

bit yes and no OK. Then what happened was that I was like, okay, I guess this is that I get some settling for contentment. And then I realized that that wasn't true either. That was me putting safety before my happiness. You know what I mean .

because I was going to say, like if you have any advice to maybe someone that's watching this right now, but is like fully in that cycle of whether it's with an abusive partner or toxic partner and they just can't get out of IT and they're like, but i'll never find something that makes me feel this.

You will you have to heal first when you get out. It's not gona feel that way right away because you need to heal. And then like that new head version of you is gonna, you know I don't know.

It's kind of like when you get a wound and then you know the wound hurts and IT hurts and IT hurts, at least you're feeling something and then it's scars and the scar is no. And you're like I had to have no feeling here but then eventually new skin grows and you get to feel again. But it's not IT doesn't hurt.

you know. I mean, no, it's so it's so hard to tell people when they are in IT really like i'm promise if you leave and you get out of IT and you heal, it's going to get Better. Yeah I want to ask you like as an artist because I feel like a lot of people have these moments where they collaborate with someone they were in a relationship with, and you've done that in the past. Yeah and you have this like very famous song with someone that you have like talk about, like not having a good relationship with. Can you describe the feeling of like having a piece of art tied to a very like hurtful and not like positive .

experience? I think that one thing I ve been really smart about is there never my songs, i'm always on their songs. S so like, that's your problem, not mine.

I get to do my whole catalogue and I don't have to deal with you. So like, sorry that some of your bigger songs have me on them. I don't know what to tell you.

I tended, he sort of the gate, K, P, about my art for the same reason. Well, oh my god, ve got on your thing, but like, not mine. You know, like this needs to this any, to preserve this for myself.

You know, I think whether i'm on a record with someone and I like, you know, the relationship changes or not, or I just wrote a song about them, like songs just Carry so much cellar energy, but the good thing about them is that they do evolve. Like i've gone on station saying the same song like over, like I i've been singing without me for fuck in years. You know, every time I seeing IT feels different, feels like it's about a different thing.

And like, you know, I have so many songs that are about so many different times in my life for like experiences and like, I don't know, I think that I think that I i'll never shy away from being honest. You know, it's like and if you have to deal the consequences of that later, then so beer, but like, I would rather regret, i'd rather regret being honest and being reflective of where I wasn't my life at that time. Then regret not saying something or doing something that I wish that I had. I don't know. I just .

great.

Yeah, no features on this album. Just me. Nowhere else. Getting in the way of minor period.

There is a ring. Yes, on your finger. We've gone through child od.

We've gone through your previous relationships and going through the mud to get to congratulations. You engaged. Yes, I am a man. I know razing, it's insane.

Get all the tea from you. No, I have to insane.

And IT still feels weird to say like I have a husband and what is happening? You're a few say no. This is exciting on how did the proposal happen? Can you tell me? Yeah so he proposed .

in barco a um it's kind of like where we first started hanging out so to take release special to us because we had this like kind of like these few days where we were like we were hanging out a bunch and I was very like not you know I wasn't sure that I was ready so it's kind of you know but I was also kind like really the like most amazing like smartest, hottest nicless person i've ever met in my life also like please don't go anywhere and I am trying to figure IT .

out you .

yeah and ah you know yeah he proposed in vercelli IT was really sweet and um immediately afterwards left to go shoot to show for like six months in canada I was like okay bye yeah so we we haven't really .

had like the .

chance to be like in you know what I mean um but he's coming home and you know just time for me to go start like all the album promo whatever and you know think we're going to a get to have like our our time then but I never wanted to be married.

interesting. Never never would change.

Evan, yeah, I don't know. I never thought that I would ever want to be married. And then like I, I just knew I wanted to marry him and I couldn't explain why because I would deconstruct marriage like from such a logical perspective beforehand.

Like I was so like practical survival, like you know, like fiscal, like about IT, you know the that I was I was broke down marriage and I couldn't really understand the point of marrying just from like an emotional point of view as a glove. You love each other, beat together, ready to married. Yes, I didn't understand IT and then I don't know just something with him.

I just knew I wanted to make him and like, I can't even explain why. Yeah know what I mean because I do I love him in such a way that I feel like we would be just as fine if we didn't. But something about that makes me want to do IT more.

I relate a lot to what you're saying because I was very vocal, like even when I met that, I was like, I don't want to get married. I never want to get married like I thought IT would thread my independence. I was, I felt the same way like why do we need a piece of paper? And then I just like, new, he was the person if I was gonna IT and I think that's so beautiful that .

I was just like .

something within .

you was like, I know this is right. Just do around around doing like some like fashion weeks and some like I was doing some festivals and like, you know, we had we've been like a wear of each other that we have each other instance, you know what I mean that was like and and we've neither this can really remember if we had like met in passing before that I think I would remember.

So I don't think we have no but I always I had like always have like a weird feeling about him, you know. And then, you know I I I got pregnant. I was know with my song's father and then I didn't have any feelings about anyone because I was like super committed, like making my family like, you know, this new life is like a mom, like my son and so like, um I wasn't really like thinking about any of that kind of stuff.

Then I became a single mom and I was like, I am never dating anyone ever again and it's going to be I had so much to figure out. I was like, I just mean my son. And like, you know, I was also really sick, was really sick in her life changing way.

I was like, not thinking about dealing at all. Yes, then we met. We like meat for drink.

One I I just remember walking into this bar, the psychopath, and he was just exiting in this like little beer garden at the hotel, and I walked, I saw him in the only way can explain IT was is like, you know, like a vampire movie. When the vampire like, glares you like, they do that thing I miss you. Like, yes. Like that was happening to me. Like, I walked and all like, I was like, hey and he was like, hi and I was like.

hi OK he? Edward calling no.

he straight up. Like, mine tricked me. Like, I think he wasn't doing on purpose. He just is very charming. You like you, I was just like a wow.

I was just like this, like this warmth in this like light, just like emanating off of him. I was so compelling. IT was so Loring. I just like sitting at the table, link over the table, sit closer to him like I was so just like, yeah drawn to him. Like I don't know how to explain IT IT was so IT was different thing.

Like when you meet someone in your like I could see this working and i'm planning in my head and am I doing the calculation like how this would work out and like OK you like that and i'm like this and this would be good. I was just like I was like I was had I was not had full of i'm going to get a math. I was had empty. I was just say hi because god, yes.

we're all just like swing and here like, well, keep going no, that is like that when you know there's something special yes, what if you had to say, what do you love the most about him?

嗯， that's hard. I mean, he's so like friendly, like a just that isn't the right word but like there's nothing I could ever bring up that would freak him out. There's like no conversation we can't have like in the court like he's so solution oriented.

Like everything between the two of us is always like. It's always with the the goal of solution and battering. And like you were never like locked in to like who's gna witness, who's gona, whatever. Also, he's just like, I remember when I first, when I first started seeing him, I was like, what's IT gonna be?

I was like, you are like, super successful even in this business particular really long time your smoking hard and everyone on the planet knows that I was like, what's wrong with you? And he was so nice and he was so family oriented. And like, I was like a year about to be the biggest psychopath.

you're to be the .

final boss. Like you can't be like this and because there's going to be what like whatever wrong with you is gonna be like fbs most wanted. But like you're gonna secretly like our bodies in your basement, like something you would have the worst thing i've wrong with you and then I was like, it's unsure, like a while and then like, you know, time went on.

Well, first I had his parents and they're bucking lovely and so that's where I was kind like, oh, maybe this is real. Maybe he is just like, great. He's great parents like Grace m really well. And then, you know, he he has got, he is relationship with my son now. You know, just like watching the way that he shows up for my son.

And like such a authentic way, I was like, okay, you really are just like the best person and then came the panic of me being like, I don't deserve someone that great and so I had to kind of like, I was short lived, but I had that little process. Oh my god, you really is that great. And like, what the hell sy doing with me?

You know, when I then I had to kind of like, I had to start seeing myself. I had to value myself more. You know, when I think I had to be the guy mosco really, really ambitious and i'm a really good mom.

And like I create like a really welcoming and like safe environment and a patient, i'm really um communicative and i'm rational and I am you know supportive and protective. And I have just seeing myself like in that way to have peace, to not enter like a cycle of insecurity. You know.

do that must have been so refreshing because I think when you are met by a healthy good partner who we all have our own ship, but like someone genuinely trying to be like, no, I really want to make this work and I don't want to fucked you up and I don't want to be fucked up and I want to do this together like you just start to raise your standard for yourself of like how you are gone to show up and and like you said, it's so beautiful like with your child knowing how you care for pull us human being and how you show up for your child to see a partner like come into your life and be able to not only like embraced you guys, but also add value to the dynamic like that so fucking refreshing .

and probably nice for you. Yeah I also force me to do everything like really, really becoming a single mom. Grown up, wake up. Call for me. I was at a moment where I was like, I can't just like pass this like, you know, this is changed the entire dynamic of my life, like it's changed everything about like my own feelings of heart and wanting to act on those versus like what's right for my child and like, you know, I had to.

I had to, like, I had already like speed run, grown up when I became a mom, but then I had to like secondary, like speed and grow up. Or like I grew out of that, not wanting to be inconvenient or not wanting to be a problem, wanting to be cleaning, or not wanting to be extraordinary. I had to grow out, out to date again as a single mom was like, I wasn't a situation very like, you know, if you like, I couldn't be in a situation where my taxing guy, like a girl, I talking, whoever my case, plans, plans.

I OK, I got you back. I mom, I have schedule what you want to see me or not. And if you don't, then like, bie, you know, I mean, and so like, I IT just like IT forced me out of being able to like, accidentally, but like people please I so I make myself smaller because I was like, I can't. So like, what's up?

No, that is like, so beautiful to hear. And i'm so happy for you. And like everything you ve shared today, if you like, that has like beautifully LED you to wear you right now, we're like, you are engaged.

You are mother like, you are so successful, you have this new album coming out, which we have to talk about. Like like I said, I was listening to IT. And like there is a lot in this album here and it's called degree in personator. What is the meaning behind the title?

What is the meaning behind the title?

I think it's you know it's sort of it's a good double on tara OK. You know, like on the one hand, I think that kind of touches on some of what we've talked about this time was with me figuring out that all these kind of serving is more than all the ego than like just a stage name, and that kind of admitting that and like coming forward and being like, I ve built a caa off of being really honest and authentic and maybe I haven't been as honest and authentic as I thought the past couple years. I think maybe I have more to say.

And what forced me into that was obviously getting so sick that I thought I was gna die. You know, when you think you're gna die, you have the next essential crisis that is just like indescribable to your form ourself. Like you kind of have to, like, live through IT to understand that.

And like, I just started looking at myself and being like, okay, if you do die, is this you're happy with this? This is everywhere. When is gna? Remember you like the last thing you did, last thing you said, like, have you know, we tell ourselves at the time we have more time and we do, but like, nothing is promised to us.

So there is times I was a example, the song, like my doud, I told you, like I was, I do on the next album, do, do next album, too scared and might not be album, but put IT out, speak your truth. There might not be an x album, you know? So I can like, force me to the situation.

I was like, I have to just act and do and be as truthful as I possibly can. But I started taking fate a lot. I started thinking, like, okay, does everything happen for a reason? right? Like i'm born one thousand and ninety four.

Is that high end up, pauli, is because like i'm born at the right time, at the right moment, like if i'm born ten years earlier, five years later, to end up famous, to end up art teacher, to end up like in jail, like I, you know. And then so I was like, what if I debut in the seventies? But like, what if I debut in the eighties and nineties? I started expLoring all these different like versions of me making music in like different decades.

So innocent, some kind of like impersonating other, you know, stars of of that time in kind of doing an exploration in the cathode experiment on that cause it's like the big thing that kept coming up when I got sick was a lot of people like in the medical field. We're pretty adamant with me like you're sick because of your job interview. Some said IT just directly and some you know and not so many words just kind of like, well like stress in the lack of sleep and traveling and jet lag for nutrition.

Putting strain on your body like these things can trigger auto mune diseases and the particular automated disease I have lost can trigger um you know I can can trigger a luke mia fora like a lot of a lot of like blood cancers and like Cliff cancers are more more common in people who have chronic you are mean conditions and so they all kind just trickle down to this, like you're stressed out all the time kind of thing. So that made me to be like, you know, becoming hosie was like a crazy thing that I would happen to me in my life. But like, this is a consequence of that. You know, like, does that go this way no matter what, if I become halse is how my life goes, my single mom and my sick and my life. Is there any way to, like, beat that fate or be destiny?

Can I ask? Like, how are you feeling today?

Pretty good. Yeah, I like, I came back from I came back from new york. I was there for the V S. And I noticed I was kind of starting to have a flair like a loops flare OK.

Um and I haven't had been in a little while because you know my disease has been like information and I was kind of thinking about IT was thinking I like a lot of my fans or a lot of my audience that you with you I like you be much stronger than I can really get out of Better I can really go to school and I like, wow, I don't want you thinking that i'm stronger than you. Or like, you can accomplish as much as me. Like, I went into the V, M, A, S.

I working hard the whole week, and then I had a flair as a consequence of that. That's reality. That's the risk in you guys like the fansie you the reward yeah and I have to kind like baLanced that every time I do something is just like knowing that that's a possibility and kind of adapting to that new Normal.

Like so what happens as like I have to rest or have to go get treatment or to like you know I have to change certain things, but it's by no means because like i'm built differently than anyone else, like i'm also win a significant position of privilege compared to most people who are dealing with chronic illness. You know, in terms of, like, you know, the treatments I can get, the access that I can get. Like, and so i'm just using all those things to kind of to mitigate what is my new Normal.

I definitely had a situation like a couple a couple of weeks ago and that's why I am kind of chuckling to myself about this flare because I did the thing where I was like, i'm feeling so good. I don't know if I need treatment anymore and I was like, I am going to stop treatment like, I don't want put this stuff my body. Like, i'm gonna be fine like, I was bit, you didn't learn your lesson and you did that with the business.

Like, first of all then like, you know, I was like, i'm feeling really good. Like, I don't think I need to do IT anymore and like, you know, i'm putting on these these medicine in my body and like, maybe I can just do what like diet, like with whatever. And I stopped for like a little bit.

I like skipped the treatment. Immediate flair. I was like on the flight home in like one of the first signs of the loops, flares, you get this butterfly shaped rash across your teeth. I got up, like, to use the rest room on the plane and looked in the mirror.

And I was like, pock, you've got ta be fucking him and I kind of like, how to like I like, walk ashamed back to my seat and like that down and was like, dam, that was a sad moment for me because I was like, I had felt so good. You know, it's gon T V on the carpet and I was been doing IT again. I'm great.

Everything's good. And like maybe like kind of emotional because I was kind of like, i'm still sick. That's still reality.

Like this is forever now and that was hard. You know, I couldn't just be like, well, that was crazy. Those two years are moving on. I had to be like, no, this is still, this is forever. I like coming in the .

terms with out like little little. I can only imagine how hard that is. And like I I think in different capacity, everyone can find a way to relate that feeling up like, no, no, no, I don't need this anymore. I'm going to be fine and then if you go back to not being fine here, like this is so emotionally heavy to deal with yeah but I do think that is incredible that you have been open as much as you want to be about that because I do, again, believe IT helps other people realize someone that is as successful as you also is just not living this perfect fairy tail life. And everything's fucking fine like everything you're writing about in this album is so fucking real like, what is the hardest song that like you wrote to write the life of the spider?

really? Yeah, that was like the it's like, just like me in a piano kind of sense. Like a voice.

No, look a little bit. And every time I hear I cry, just a curing my voice, like in that state. And I rode that song about being sick in about jusici feeling like such a burden.

And I also just feeling disgusting. I felt so SE and so terrible about myself when I was sick, like, you know, I was like, was really got and like, my face changed. My face, just, my face and body had just changed because I just had a baby, you know, is pregnant.

Like, I went through all those changes that changed again like this when I got sick so fast, you know, and I was like bombing, but then, like, you know, I was pushing my teeth, made me scared because of scared is going to induce more vomiting and like, I was, I was, I was just so sick, so gross, yeah and like, I felt revolting. I don't feel good about myself at all. And like you know, I I felt.

I felt, you know, can I trapped in like this cycle of feeling resentment from people close to me? You know, some real, some imagined. You know, think both. And just kind of this feeling of leg everyone had depended on me for so long.

And I I kind like IT was a hell of .

my own design because I told everybody for so long like I don't need help, I can take care myself and then I needed help. And everybody was like, what do you mean like you conditioned us to believe that you take care of yourselves and they are really matter of us because we're not helping, but we don't know how to because you never let us before, you know and so that was really, really hard um but also just kind of feeling like, god, what how dare I inconvenience you so much by by being dying I wasn't .

saying like but again, going back to everything you've sure do they like you're used to being the one that's taking care of and fixing everyone so like to ask for help must feel just so unnatural to you yeah but like you need help from people, you need support. You need people to be there for you. But it's hard to ask when you're someone that is not used to asking a .

big thing for me music. A lot of my relationships I felt like because I am travelling all time and because i'm gone and because I am really like insulated and self sufficient in that way where it's like, you know, I feel when you're in the public eye like you are like you know, you're financially like secure in the way that like you are in the business, IT changes your friendship. Sorry, it's like i'm moving right.

I have to ask my friends to come help me move because i'm just gonna move like at the moving company and do the thing or like I need someone to pick me up from a surgery or like take me the dentist or like, you know, whatever and it's like i'll got a driver. It's like, you know you lose that kind of like village community. We look out for each other kind of thing.

But then on the flip side, i'm always taking care of that for other people. You know what I mean, so changes the dynamics of the relationship. I'm also a spiritual person.

So I also believe sometimes that like you will end up in situations where if you're like spirit guide or you're guardian do or whatever IT is that you believe knows that you don't make a hard decision for yourself. The kind of put you in a position with the other person does IT for you, but it's for you. You know what I mean?

Yes, like you can feel IT when it's happening. Yeah this whole album is incredible. I'm so excited for you.

Last two questions, I promise. Um one, what are you most excited to perform? What's on?

Okay, there's two for two reasons. I really a musical song like it's got like the piano, the piano so warm and the guitar so great and the drums are so like, I just imagine i'm gonna on, say you feel like i'm a part of big band, like big musicians stage like turning around, like it's very rural canyon like, you know like fleet wood mac vives. So I can't want to do that because I just say it's going to be so like um but then definitely the only living girl in ally is a six minute songs so I going to know how many to play live but I think there's so many fun moments for the fans to live join in on like out libs and stuff but it's going to feel like were performing IT together. And I love when a song feels like you and the audience are doing IT together and .

not like you're doing IT at them. You know, it's so sad and beautiful. And listening to IT, I was like, healthy. I wanted to like, give you a hug. I was like, this is so bucking, sad, but it's so, it's really incredible song. I mean, every single song is incredible and you're such an incredible writer or but i'm just so happy for you because you are clearly so talented and everything that you have gone through in your career and your personal life to see this new work of art that you've put together is truly incredible. And I wouldn't say that if I didn't feel that way like listening to IT in my car.

I also chose listening to the car is any.

And I so happy I got to meet, because your energy and your spirit and just who you are as a person like IT does change my fandom over you. Even more like I feel like an even bigger fan after getting to speak with you today. Thank you really taking the timetable because IT, I think the daddy yang is going to break out over this. And I know your fans will, but thank you for giving me the time.

Oh, god, 是， of course, also you have to teach me out a planet wedding. I don't know what i'm doing. Trust me, I have no idea. I really over. Well.

trust me, I ve got you because I was like, I didn't even know what I would want to wear. I was like the antithesis of a bride when I first started. And like.

I figured that out what I told you, I never wanted to be married. So when i'm talking people, like, when you were a little girl, what did you dreamed about and I was like, I did and I have no idea. I'm obsessed with my fiance, say, and I just like fucking like to, like I want to to inside his skin and be like a part of him and like I need a editing or like I can either do that and it's not weird or like if there's something in place that prevents me from trying to do IT. You know.

I could not relate more to you, and I will give you all of the wedding tips that you need. Thank you for coming on call that I was on.

Thank you.