Esther Perel: Cheating 101 (FBF)
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What is your daddy game? IT is your founding father, alex Cooper, with.

I remember IT like IT was yesterday, september twenty fourth, twenty seventeen. Everyone remembers the exact place that they were when they caught their significant other cheating. I opened the ipad and I wanted to fucking bar.

I was sick to my stomach. I felt so betrayed. I was shocked, hurt, angry, disgusted, num. I felt crazy. And I hate to admit, but I cried because I was the one who had spent the previous five, six. I don't even know suckin.

However long I had, however long I had been dating, I was the one structuring romantic relationship so that I was in control. And then this mother fucker comes and begged me to make a official, plays me, my girlfriend. I love you so much, please playing.

Suck my or I love you. I love to you. No, yes. Okay, fine.

And then I find the dick picks that you sent to your nutritionist, who is a married mother of two. That is fucking growth. And I guess I wasn't in control because this mother fucker hurt me.

I remember having, in that moment, no idea what to do. Do I confront him? Do I stay? Do I leave? Do I tell my friends, my family, do I keep breeding these messages to take screen shots? Obviously, of course, always take screen shots proof.

But I guess the point is that that type of pain is hard to forget. IT is such a unique, lonely pain. Why does his thing soul behave? At the time, I could have really used the guidance and advice of today's guest, someone who I consider an expert in all things relationships. The one, the only s para L. S.

There is a psychotherapist who is recognize as one of the leading voices in modern relationship, daddy gay, SHE has a therapy practice in york city, has authored two best selling books, meeting in captivity, and the book that we are here to talk about today, the state of affairs, daddy ganging, welcome to therapy with a stair parl. Daddy gay, if also after you listen to this episode and you are like, I need more as there have no fear. S stair is fucking here, guys.

You can listen to her podcast, where should we begin? Or you can also check out where should we begin, which is s stairs. New game of stories designed to unlock the storyteller within. I've played IT over. I was going to say, a glass wine, a couple glass is a teq a and .

IT .

was very fun. enjoy.

So interesting to see you, alex, after i've heard you at at full speed talking in my .

oh my god H I feel the same way, but I usually reading your words. And so now it's amazing to put a face to the book. Okay, let's get started. Said we as stair IT is an on, thank you for taking the time to come on. Call her daddy.

It's my pleasure.

I am a huge fan. I ve read meeting in captivity and now i'm reading the state of affairs a whole book on cheating. I posted a quote from your book and the daddy game cannot get enough.

And I think it's because everybody has a cheating story, right? Whether you were cheated on someone you know was cheated on a family member apparent and reading your book is going to give people insight into the thing we all love to not talk about, but also love to talk about. So as there, let just get into IT. How do you define cheating?

Cheating is an experience in an act of betrayal, is a violation of trust. But it's for every couple to define. Some couples will define cheating as watching point online, some couples will define cheating as a massas with a happy ending, and some people will define cheating as be connecting with the next on facebook.

So IT really is for every couple at today to define IT, especially since the definition keeps on expanding. And then there is just basically what IT has been historically. IT also has been very generous.

Ed, what was considered cheating for women was often considered just being a man. So the higher key of society have defined what cheating was. And then they also the privacy of each couple.

That was something I really loved reading in your book about just the concept of secure acy and being the largest themes that would be considered cheating. But there are so many versions of secure, easy and betrayal like you just described. Do you know what are the top two reasons why people cheat? Like are there statistics on IT though?

There are no statistics and there are no two top reasons. I think where you start that is really very good. If you ask people if they have ever been betraying, if they themselves have had an affair, if they were the children of a licit relationship, if they were a friend on who shoulder somebody y's weeping, you will probably get that eighty percent of the population has been affected by the experience of infidelity in their lives. State affairs is ten years of working with infidelity, and I don't think them at the bottom of IT yet.

The garment goes from, you know, the person who can't make a commitment and cheats because they are afraid of the intimacy and they want to maintain their options to the person who is experiencing decades of loan in the in the relationship, and to the person who has been been unwanted and untouched for so long, that to the person who is longing to reconnect with parts of themselves that have been so lost for so for so long. It's really not one story. Yeah, it's it's layer this called infidel. That's really the starting point.

Is there a statistic of who cheats more manor women?

Well, historically, men definitely had a license to rome. You know, IT was considered being a man. Nobody thought of this, particularly as cheating.

And the expectations of fidelity, where primarily on women, in order to know to whom do these children belong, you know, so IT was very clearly gender, and you knew exactly who did that more often. On other, you would say, who did those man do IT? They didn't all go to other. So there is something also about how women have also locked for connection, for sexuality, for pleasure, for the passion.

In the beginning of my show years ago, I was a joke. But IT was a play on what you're discussing of historically. The men cheat, right? Cheat on him.

reckless. Im, you're power, like all these women were writing and always so terrified that their was going to cheat. And I was like, why don't you cheat first?

And of course, IT was a joke. He was a joke or a strategy. IT.

you know what a little bit of joke, a little bit of strategy. Take what you want from color that you always. So is there, you are an expert at counselling couples post cheating, and you've divided the post cheating recovery into three phases. Can you list those three phases?

Typically there is, first of all, the crisis I ve just found out, you know, I I found out because somebody came to tell me. I found out because I got a phone call. I found out because I discovered an ipad with a whole track record.

And I have been found out that could be the other side. Somebody has just come and said to me, you've lying to me, what's going on? You know, i've asked you more than once.

So this is whole issue of the crisis face. It's all come up like that front and center. Then there is a meaning making face.

Okay, what was this about? Not just what happened and what were the fact, but what is the meaning? Why did this happen? Why did you do this? What did you find there? what? What does that mean for us? Did you hope I would find out? Did you hope I would never know? Did do you want me to take you back? Do you want me to actually kick you out? What is IT? You know? And and the third one for those who have IT is, okay.

What will we do with this? What meaning does this has for our relationship? And can we learn from this and use IT to reinvigorate ourselves to redefine the relationship? Every affair will redefine a marriage or a relationship, and every relationship will define what the meaning of the affair will be.

I I love that you put IT into three phases. And I do think that this book is helping almost if anyone is getting cheated on, or even is cheating IT IT almost helps to categorize IT so that you have an idea of where you're at. Because I can feel very debilitating when you're in the thick of IT. I think we should role play. Okay.

what do you call role place? What I do the whole day? But that's okay.

okay. So daddy gay, again, that's what I call my listeners. I think they want an example, right? And I think that helps to role place.

So let's drop ourselves into a scenario where someone, and i'm going to play to someone, finds out that they're getting cheated on. And you are the expert, guide me through us there. Okay, so I opened my boyfriend of two years computer.

I am maddy in love with this guy. I saw myself marry him, but I catch him cheating. I'm sitting in this room alone on the ground. I'm reading messages after messages, and i'm scrolling, and i'm scrolling on this computer. What is the first thing I should do.

dad? Again, close the ipad. Close IT. You're going to get more of the same. It's not original. There is not a thousand ways to see people to sexy talk or love talk. Close IT because you're gonna get a death by a thousand cuts.

And i'm saying close IT not because i'm just saying, you know what you need to know? Yeah, stop IT. This is about your own self protection.

Maybe at another point, you can ask for more questions, but right now and then make sure that you have someone near you, that you can just go and weep and scream and curse and go through the combustion of all the feelings that you're, you gonna get. You know, you gonna anna kick, you're gonna gonna shake. You're gonna to shut down you going.

It's a whole, you know, series of contradictory feelings, one after the other. How could you do this to me? Why did this happen? Of course, IT happens to me.

I don't want to talk you ever again, but don't leave me, but get the hell out of here and on and on like that. And the reason I divided in three stages is because IT really takes IT outside of your little bit and says, this is how distinct plays out. It's not just you at first, you think you go crazy.

The floor is ripped on, the need to feed you. Wonder what world life if I been living in, what is the reality here? Is anything I thought was true really true? The whole thing was fake.

A R, so that's my first thing for you. And you know, i'm remembering the first season of where should we begin? I had five different episodes on the podcast of stories of infidelity, and every one of them was so completely different.

So I don't know that again, i'm going to talk to you again as an individual and collective. I don't know which is your reaction. There is the reaction that is an explosive one.

There is the one that is explosive. There is the one in anger, is the one in tears. There is the one way you meet your partner. And finally you have a conversation like you haven't had in years, and you sit down till five o'clock in the morning. I don't know which is gonna your version, which is why I played you different plots so that you can see which one is the one that is more likely to be you.

Well, as there. Thank you. Because right now, in our role play, we live together and he's about to come home from work.

So I just found this on the computer. He's coming home from work. What is the first thing that I say to him when he walks in the door?

You may do one of the teen, yeah, you may have been waiting for him to come in. And before he even takes off his coat, you screaming at him and you telling him, I know everything, you may not want to a tell something because you wanna see if he's gonna tell you and you're gonna say, where did you just come from where where you're yesterday? You may want to trap him.

You may want to say, you know, I think this is the end of us. This is not the first time you may want to say, you know um I know that this is going on shall we talk about this and be super calm and and kind of look at yourself from the outside and be incredible that you're so composed? I don't know which version of you and either do you it's just the beginning.

The beginning can start off in tears, and then you can go into a deep conversation. The beginning can start off with kicking, and then I can go into tears. This is a series of things. The first moment isn't the definitive moment.

What if you started gas lighting me saying I shouldn't have gone through the computer? Like, how do I handle that?

That is absolutely the case that I did enter into your private space because you have introduced a foreign person into my private space as well. You know this thing of let's deflect IT and talk about how you shouldn't have. Tored my phone on my ipad when in fact, we're talking about and seeing as I did so because I felt something or I did so because I stumbled upon IT because I was looking for the receipt of something.

And here I was. I wasn't looking for that, but nevertheless, you know there isn't. You may be very upset about the fact that I stayed there in your computer, but let's be clear, you also have introduced someone in our world that I did not ask you for yeah so can we go back to what we're really talking about?

What do I do if he denies cheating?

So if you have, you know, what is that that you do you need him to say, yes, I did. He may begin to not deny, but he may say, but IT wasn't really bad, but I wasn't really sex because, you know, I didn't really come and IT wasn't really sex because I kept my clothes on and IT wasn't really dead and, you know, he was just dad. That's the other version.

IT was just this. It's not really cheating. IT, you know, I never saw the person again.

I mean, are you trying to minimize IT? What are you trying to say? Yeah, you know the fact is here is a there is a we have an agreement or we don't have an agreement, but we have an assumption about an agreement.

And you are lying to me or you are between me and you are going behind my trust. And i'm actually not so interested in your agrees or not. I'm clear about what I saw.

Yeah, see, this is where you ask yourself, dad, again, what is IT that you need to know in order to know? And do you want to to be talked out of IT? Do you actually want someone who says, come commit wasn't anything we can get over this, you know, do you want someone who helps you brush IT over?

Do you want someone who says, that's true? I'm been really lonely. I've been paced.

You have not been interested in me have been only working. You haven't had. We haven't made love in gardens.

How long? And I I couldn't get your attention. Or do you want somebody who says I fell in love with somebody? It's not about cheating. I fall in love with someone and I want to leave you. You don't know where you start the conversation and where he takes you.

We're in the crisis space right now, right? And in this role play, my life has been turned upside down. I wanted to marry this man.

And moments ago, I find out that he's fucking his co worker, and my emotions are all over the place. I have no idea what I want right now. I'm trying to process.

I'm terrified. What if he then comes at me and asks me, okay, well, what do you want? Do you want to break up?

What if he gives me almost the ultimate question of, okay, great. You found out what you want. I don't .

even know what process this. You you don't make a decision. Close the doors for a moment. Take your time. And if you ask you, what do you want?

You just say, at this moment, I just want to find a way to take my next breath. I am buckling inside. I am in such tremendous pain at this moment.

What I want is for you to acknowledge the minimum. The minimum is that you hurt me, that you put us at risk. Do do you know you lose your predictable future? You thought you were gone to marry him, but so did he.

So at that moment, it's a loss of identity for both. It's a loss of the predictable future for both. It's a loss of trust for both, and that's really enough to deal with at that moment. There's no decision to be made.

right? That's great to know. Like getting into the weeds of the dynamics in the crisis phase is not going to be if I also would want all you need to know .

is what you're gonna do tonight, yeah, what you're gonna sleep tonight. Can you be in the same house? Should you be on a separate bed on couch? Should you go and stay for a night or two or whatever, to at somebody else place, so that you can kind of gather your thoughts again just in the moment? Response, don't make a plan for life.

What if my immediate reaction is I want to leave, but i'm nervous to leave? Because what if I leave in and he actually doesn't even want to take me back? And how do I deal with that conflicting feeling of wanting to leave, but being scared if I walk out and it's actually over?

But that fear is not the result of the infidelity? Yeah, this is, if you have this feeling, this has been there for you. And if you are in living with fear of that sort, you Better revisit your relationship. Really great answer.

Then on the other spectrum, in my case, in my role play, i'm nervous that I might do something that night that i'll regret in the morning. And in the book you write that IT is common to have sex in the wake of the cover of the cheating. What do I say in the morning if I slept with him? But then I wake up feeling angry and betrayed and no longer sexually turned on. And he misinterpreted my initial response as forgiveness.

You basically say I needed to connect, and now i'm not. This is part of this composition of of of contradictory feelings that we have one minute, hold me and one minutes, don't touch me. It's not an uncommon story.

And IT is one that is often not talked about out loud because people feel very embarrassed about IT. That actually there is something about the reconnection at that moment that that is also sexual for some people. Sometimes it's the conversation until four clock in the morning.

Sometimes it's the goodbye fuck. Sometimes it's they want me still, you know, I want to know that you still have those feelings for me. Then you wake up in the morning and you dealing with another another facet of your feelings. And, you know, you just say, last night, this is what I felt, and right now i'm feeling a host of other things and they're all part of this experience.

It's help for you to explain that, Normalize the amount of different emotions you are going to have and don't even try to suppress them like just let them all happen. Because, again, this is the crisis space.

If you have no choice, yeah, they will just pour out of you. I love you. I hate you.

I wanted leave you. Don't leave me. Touch me.

Hold me. Let me way on you. Don't touch me.

How can you? Oh, I feel terrible when you touch me. I feel terrible when you don't touch me. I want you, i'm embarrassed about wanting you, I still love you and I hate you. And all of this sometimes in three minutes or less.

So the concept of getting embarrassed, I want to ask, like, who should I tell about the cheating? Lets say I can't go to therapy. Who should I lean on because is there a chance confiding in friends or family could complicate things? Like, I don't want to tell my parents they'll never accept him again.

Oh, yes. And your friends too, mean, I advise most of the couples to each find one or two people, both of them, both of them, you know, so and and you find sometimes not the closest person to you, you find the one who will know to let you go to this whole sequence that I just describe, without inserting themselves, without wanting you to do something to make IT stop.

It's really the person who can let you emote freely and just create a container for you and hold you and sue you and just say, this sucks. This is so painful, this is so hard. Oh god, I love you. You, you're more than what just happened to you and continues to value you as a whole person, rather than just as the cheated on.

You have any advice for someone that is the friend that the the person that gets cheated on goes to how to navigate being supportive and not this giving opinion.

Uh, IT IT really IT is so friend, number one, I said to you, just tell her or him or them, i'm here for you. Come spend the night. Let me cook for you.

Let's take a walk, you know, let's just do a yoga together. Let's go for a run. Just get IT out of the body.

Let's not even think you. Let's be in the body and let's move, and that's all we need to do. You anna, cry, cry.

You anna, talk, talk. You want to a right, right? I have, you know, i'm just, i'm just a holding person for you friend.

Number two, which is more important, he says, this is the fourth. This is happening because he's different scenario. You come to me for the fourth time, i'm gonna say, daddy, again, this is enough.

right? So with is the time you think being consoling. And then if this has been repetitive, you can start to give your not even opinion, just state the facts for them, because they may not be able to fully see IT clearly. But again, if they don't want to see IT, just go back to that consoling.

supportive friend yeah. Between advice and consoling, there is also simply the person who holds the mirror and says, you know, I have heard that story a number of times. I'm so sorry, we never happen again.

You know, I love you. You're the most important person. You know, that redemption cycle that goes on. You know, first I put you down, first I ignore you, a cheat on you, then I, that you do most important person in my life, and only you can forgive me. The friend holds the mirror too, and it's one friend to what you don't want to do. Is that beaching on the partner so that the friend ends up defending you know, the person are defending their partner because the other one, he's more angry than they themselves.

So it's focusing more on your friend and what they are doing and going through and almost completely excluding the partner that cheated because you don't want to a alienate your friend that got cheats on and feeling like, oh my god, my friend hates my boyfriend like I can't go back now it's more about focus on your friend that got cheated and her feelings and not what happened with the actual partner, what they are doing.

yes. And two more, accept that the person can be both angry and still love the person. Yeah, don't shame them for that. Number three, understand that they may have a complex life, that they may have kids, that they may have kids with with more difficulties that need two parents, that they may have an economic situation, that there's a lot of things that that person may have cheated on them but is still is the same person who has been taking care .

of their alcoholic brother that's a great point um what is the sign that I am out of the crisis stage?

Sometimes it's because you had a few very, very good talks and you're feeling a little bit calmer. You're not spending every minute of the day asking the next question and ruminating and going over the last months, in the last years and revisiting and trying to figure IT out. You can actually have a breath. That's one way. You know you know because you begin to feel like you know you're asking a different set of question.

Oh, great. That's a good point. So that is stage two is meaning making yes. And what does meaning making mean?

IT means that you are going to be an investigator and another detective. You're not gonna go for all the sorted details that are gonna keep you up at night. You're gonna really ask, what does this mean for you, for me and for us?

That's helpful. So now going back into the role play, I would say full disclosure as there our sex life isn't what IT used to be. We have obligatory sex once a month and he's sleeping with a co worker. What are some follow up questions you would have for me and my partner?

Did you ever talk about the miserable sex life that was happening? Do you think that's one. Number two, do you think that you were not available for him and that he reached out multiple times? And every time you basically found a way of thing, i've get more important things to do, be sleep or email or whatever.

Do you think that he had reasons to feel rejected? Do you take any responsibility in what happened? And I say responsibility and not blame. I just say a dynamic. You know, one person is responsible for the affair, but two people are responsible for the relationship.

I would say that my answer as my role play would be, we definitely weren't having sex as much as we did in the beginning of the relationship, but the past year was just very stressful, and the pandemic made me feel like I gained way. I wasn't feeling great about my self, and I was trying to find other ways to connect, whether IT was movie nights and dinner and spending quality time together. But yes, our sex life wasn't at its best, but I also was not, yeah, we weren't communicating really about .

our sex life. And now have you talk to about IT now together?

No, i'm so hard broken about this co worker and I just envision him going into work every single day and seeing this woman. I want his passwords on everything, just providing passwords and and granting full to transparency on social media devices work to rebuild trust. And if not, what does?

I've never thought that surveilLance meant trust. Trust is a leap of faith. Trust is basically engaging with the unknown.

That's what? what? Why you trust this? Because you don't know and you believe that even though you don't know when the person is not next to you, they're not onna do something behind you back. If you need to have surveilLance, you're not trusting, you're controlling.

I wanted ask my partner questions about why he cheated. Everyone is going to think my boyfriend cheated on me. We're role playing daddy. So my question is, what are productive questions to ask in order to feel Better? And then what questions that are petty and counter productive?

So what you want to ask is, you know, what did you find there? Did you think that you would leave us? Did you hope that I would find out?

Did you ever try to tell me? But couldn't. Did you think about our kids?

Did you think about our life? Did you think about our friends? How was IT when you would come home afterwards?

How would you feel when you saw me and when we then would go and go to bed and still made loved the two of us these kinds of questions? You know, do you think that you could ever feel like that with me? We used to be like that.

Do you think you could come back? Do you think we could ever overcome something like this? So what you don't want to ask a questions about, how did you do IT? How long did you last? How many orgasms they do IT was IT Better than me.

It's a right, right. So no, asking about how many times the day that you have sex and more. So what did you feel when you came home after that sex was there?

What feeling did you have inside of you? The heart is there. You don't need to know the details. You already know what happened. Now if you want to move forward and get any type of closure like it's the the productive questions that are going to give you some type of relief.

Plus sometimes it's not all about the sex.

It's about the fact that the other person paid attention to me, laugh at my joke, was interested in what I have to say, looked at me, took the time to talk to me, wasn't scrawling on their phone while I was talking? It's the entire other dimension of of, you know, so IT depends, are we talking about one night stand? Are we talking about the masses? Are we talking about a two year affair? Different affairs blend to different sets of questions. But what I would do say is don't ask for sorted details that are gonna a keep you awake at night, make you feel like you are lesser, you are inferior, you are uglier, you are dur, you are whatever less it's gonna crush you and it's not gonna help you in what you want. It's not gonna you feel okay with leaving and it's not gonna you feel look with staying yeah.

that's a great point. What are the similarities between feelings following a trauma and feelings following being cheated on?

Let me go with the cheated on for a moment because there is another thing in the meaning making that I think is really, really important. You're driving with him and you're passing a neighbourhood and you're passing in front of a restaurant and your face goes like this. Now he can go like again, or he, as you know, you, you, you know, or he can simply say, no, this is not where I came.

I didn't bring that person to our favorite place or yes, I did come here too. I think that what you want is for the person who hurt to also be the one who now becomes the vigilant of the relationship, the one who protects the relationship, so that it's not always you wanting to bring IT up. One of the things that I have to say the most, and this is trauma related, I see when he asks the same question for the time time, I promise you SHE he, they are not doing that because they wanna annoy you.

They're asking because they're freend brain is trying to find a way to put the pieces back together, because all of IT feel feel so fractured. And the best thing you can do is just answer simply so that you help calm her down. And even Better is, if you can preempt the question and say to her, I know you may be asking yourself, let me tell you right away. Because if you bring up the question, IT freeze her up of having to do that kind of asking, and he can talk about something .

else that is so helpful to anyone that is going through getting cheated on or having cheated. I have felt that before, where I want my partner to understand that, I need to hear IT one more time, and then i'm going to need to hear again and again. And it's just, my world was shattered.

My reality has been cracked and now i'm trying to put IT back together. That's really helpful to know that the person that cheated giving a very not petty, but very just straight answer no, I didn't bring her here or no. We never had sex here IT IT eases that person's mind and its comforting. Instead of someone yelling at you and being like, are you really gonna bring this up again?

You had to mess up our dinner. We finally going out. The two, you have to talk about this now? Yes, yes, I do.

Because suddenly in the middle of us talking about something and having a nice time, I suddenly see something, and he brings me back. You think I want to run my own evening? You think I want this to come back into my head? No, I don't. So you really Normalize this, and you say, just reassure the other person and then move on, because if you do that, then the other person can let you go.

I agree with you where the person that has cheated know that when you're having a happy moment, sometimes the person that got cheated on in that moment wakes up four minute and it's like, oh god, here I am. I'm starting to feel happy again. Now it's bringing back the moment of I was happy and he cheated.

So don't get too comfortable. So it's hard when you're experiencing happy moments to not lean into IT. It's hard now.

so well sad, so well sad. Last time I believed you here is what happened. How do I allow myself to believe you again? Now I know I should resist IT.

I should resist IT. And then this is where, over time, you, the partner, can constantly say, I know, I know that that's what would happen. There's no reason you should believe me right now, but i'm here and I just can repeat to you again and again.

I wanna be here. Yes, I said to the other person, I love you. Yes, I say to you, I love you and you wonder what what the difference.

The difference is that I am here with you saying IT now. And yes, I have said that to somebody else as well. You know, at that moment that's what I thought and felt. It's very, very complicated because why would I but you know, why would I believe you?

That is I think what keeping me up pet night, right? I keep feeling the old cliche of i'm not sure if he sorry he did IT or he's sorry he just got caught. How do you differentiate between the two?

I think that when you have a person who is sorry that they got caught, they're often indeed, you know, you have to bring this up again. Can't we just let this go already? And just they are impatient.

They are impatient. And the more impatient they are. And of course, the more that IT sends the alert to the other person to not let you go when you really are there and you sorry for what happened, you have empty.

You're able to say, IT hurts me so much to see how much i'd hurt you. And I caused IT, and I have to own that. I'll do whatever I need to do till we rebuild.

That is such a huge component of trying to move forward and that final phase of envisioning how are we going to move forward if I decide to stay? I want to ask you, as there is there a statute of limitations for bringing up this incident? What if I can't let IT go? And how long is too long to bring IT up?

But IT depends how you bring that up. I had a couple, you know, every year on the anniversary, you know, IT would come up and the, and then the, he would say, shall we go call her? And they would make a joke around IT.

And they realized, wow, we are on the other side of this. We can talk about IT without IT ruin the entire day, without IT bringing back all the bitter, hurtful feelings. You know, it's part of our history. But in fact, when we look at IT, sometimes people say this was one of the worst times of our life, but he also became the time that changed our entire relationship, and our relationship is Better today for IT.

When you talk about cheating and then the aftermath, there's one of two things, they're onna stay or you're .

going to leave. So there are three ways to stay together OK not you stay or you leave is that you can stay and just continue to know at the bone the whole time. And every time one person is five minutes late, the whole thing comes back up.

So you can be in a marital cell together or relational cell together. And just you can't leave, but can't stay and can't let go that that's when we are still together. terrible.

Part two of things together version, too, is people who basically put the halting away and say, this was a horrible time. This was a crisis. This was an insane moment.

We never talk about IT again. We don't want to know IT even happened, but and we are embarrassed to admit that IT happened on some level that has that piece in IT to right? Part three version tary is the people who say this was the most painful time, and we decided to use this.

And with the full meaning of the world crisis, danger and opportunity. And we decided to have this become a moment when we were going to revisit our entire relationship, our contract, our boundaries, our sexual scripts, our emotional intimacy, our relationship to our friends, our financial, our power dynamic, the whole thing. And most people are gonna have two or tree relationships in their adult life today, and some of us are gonna do IT with the same person. So the affair is often the end of the first relationship.

Oh, interesting. What are the outcomes you mostly see with couples that do the second option, where they sort of push the cheating to the side and pretended never happened?

It's exactly that. We, we, we try to go back to what I was. We want the stability.

We want the family. We want to continuity. We don't want anything that's going to completely fresh less.

And we basically decide that we have a set of values that are more important than our individual needs, and we often will stay together because we value family, we value not to divorce, we value to have the children have, have parents around. We value the economic interdependence that we have all the business we created together, whatever. But basically it's my happiness and our conversation about our personal needs and wishes goes underground.

Say anyone that tries to stay right after infidelity, after cheating. What are some tangible ways to rebuild trust like when you're sitting with that person and you just are like, oh my god, why did you do this? How can I ever trust something you said? How can we come back from this?

Ways to rebuild the trust have to do with how much the other person is able to really express remorse, how much they're able to express their guilt, how much they're able to really show their commitment to the relationship and the value of that person. I know i'd hurt you every morning. Asked the partner, do we need to talk about IT? yeah.

And then, you know, if you ask me ninety percent of the time, I will say, no, it's fine. I have nothing that I need to talk about. And one more, it's unaccountable and owning IT.

I'm protective and i'm showing your value. I'm elevating you again. But in addition, it's also an erotic recovery. You also want the couple to reengage with each other, not just around the breach and the betrayal and the violation and the line, but also around their connection, their intimacy, their joy, their pleasure, their joint exploration. So you want them to do new things together. It's not just about going back to what we used to do, go and have new experiences so that you can grab some new cells, you know.

into this so you can almost have new memories that .

are created. Got my .

question is to someone that literally cannot stop in their head just replying certain things and almost like envisioning their partner or having sex with that person, what is your advice?

Sometimes it's enough to be held and to just be reassured and to be given the permission. Sometimes if he goes on too long, you recommend to do E M D R I movement reprocessing desensitization. So you know it's a technique that deals with post traumatic stress like that. Sometimes it's the actual engagement with new experiences which you ask me about trauma before is part of what we call posture matic growth ah so that you can have new experiences of yourself with your partner that sit on top of distinct keeps coming back all the time.

There's the classic saying it's not that he cheated. Is that he about yeah, look at us. Why is the act of lying sometimes more hurtful than the act of cheating?

That line is far more cultural than IT initially seems because they are, you know, because you live in a society here that sees honesty and transparency as moral virtue. And laying IT all out and leaving nothing to be discovered is considered, you know, the goal. Many other cultures see honesty, not as a confession.

They see honesty as what is IT that I can say that you can live with so that you can walk on the streets and not be all embarrassed and all ashamed that, you know, because you don't want anybody to see your face. So it's a very important thing to in in some cultures, the line is, you know, people don't consider IT necessarily lying. They consider also being protective. You know, if you want to say something to someone, the question always has to be, is this for you or is this for them?

That's what I was going to ask you is they're ever an instance where you tell someone not to disclose that they cheated?

Well, I wouldn't put IT in that language OK. It's dog don't disclose that you cheated. It's going to be you know, I remember one of the first time this really stood up me. IT was a bit of an older couple, you know, but the guy came to me and said to me, easy cheating when he no longer recognizes my face wow. And I just thought, oh my god, this is a range of experiences that I didn't even think about.

You know, if your partner is ill, if your partner can't, why you gonna know, what are you going to do with this? Do you want them, you know, do you want them to be walking around with with an open wound like this? Is IT is IT caring? Is IT been newland's is IT kind not just is IT true there?

Other are you dumping? yeah. Is that you dumping your guilt onto someone? Or is that you actually genuinely knowing? In order to move forward and start a new, I need to share this with my partner. There is such a difference. Um what advice do you have for someone who has cheated and is overcome with guilt?

Yeah then you ask that guilt is a sign of your conscience, that guilt is a thing, is a sign of health, that gant says that you acted against your values, and that is a conflict that you may have to live with. And especially if you don't necessarily share IT with your partner, you're gonna have to need to come to terms with IT. You're gona have to own that. You are a flood individual and you still have to find a way to hold yourself .

in high regard um I I one last question I would ask you .

with and you dad again yes i'm going to call you dad again. I love IT waiting the guilt you want to understand IT is IT because you ended up doing the same thing as you dad or your mom, and you had promised yourself you would never do this.

Is there an intergenerational ory here? Is that because you knew that your partner was vulnerable and couldn't do anything about IT? And so you, you know, what is the guy that is not just enough to say, I feel guilty.

What about what does IT link itself too? And from there you then talk about, you know, how can you come to terms with behaviors, actions, things that you have done that really you feel like I account is hard for me to see myself in the mirror to that this could come from me. And that is, from there you start, then you start to think, what can you do that that that .

the can I ask you, what do you say to someone who who keeps finding themselves, being in the position of the other, the third person, you know, yeah, yeah.

Um sometimes that is the you know tell me about why why this is a position that you find yourself in, right you know and is there something there that um do you what does he give you? Sometimes you feel that you are a special person. Sometimes you feel on the other side, not only does the person have a secret, but you are the secret.

What's IT like for you to be a secret? yeah. What's i'd like for you to never be able to be the official person that cannot be in public with this person, but you feel like that person gives you the side of them that nobody in public sees.

So you want to find out, you know, is IT because you are you think you you cannot do Better. Is IT because you think that the love story is more important than the institution? Is IT because, I mean, you know, i've seen people who wear lovers for thirty, forty years.

Okay, in last question, because I know ever, and selling us at a time. Last question is s there. When do you advise people to walk away?

There are many reasons to say to people, you know, this is, this is not a good situation, the the, the cheating in there is sometimes of the infidelity is only a portion of IT. If there is, there many ways people lie.

E there many, all kinds of relational betrayals, when people are indifferent to each other, when people are contemptuous of each other, when there is all kinds of power dynamics and violations and violence of all sorts, when when people literally, look, you do know, have zero care for the person that they are with, when there is such a level of either fusion where everything becomes a reason for an argument, or such a space in between that they can't come close at some point, you see, is this how you want to live? Yeah, you don't have to live like this. You are allowed to want more and Better.

I don't know if you can do Better because some of IT is you gonna go away with yourself. You know, wherever you go, there you are. But IT IT isn't.

You know, a there's a session in the where should we begin, uh, podcast, where literally they started out as an affair. They leave their partners, they marry each other, and then they started to cheat on each other. And at one point, and he is just a nations, you know, he will not let go of him. And at one point, I just said to them, I think you should be friends as as lovers. You are a disaster.

I love the honesty as there. I wish I could sit and talk to you for hours. The daddy game is going to love you. We must do another episode soon. Thank you so much for giving us your wisdom and helping us navigate if whatever cheat IT on.

or if we cheat. Thank you so much. You so sharp.

Oh, my god is coming from you. I am so happy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're amazing. incredible.

Have the best day. Thank you. Thank you know I mean, it's like you held the line, you know if you you know and I hope it's it's it's very hard and to really tell people there isn't a one way but know what you're doing and why you're doing this kind of thing yeah and stay .

truly yourself and stay true to what you want and don't let yourself stay in something if IT doesn't feel authentic to yourself. But also know you're band with of how much you're willing to fight for something because there is an ability to stay with something someone after there is infidelity, you just have to really be willing to put in the work.

The majority of couples staying together, by the way, really? Yeah.

do you believe the same cheer? The ones a cheer.

always a cheer. No, no. Because the vast majority of people that come to my office are not chronic philinus. There are people who have had ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty five years of risks of relationship. On what basis do we call them a cheater?

Bom, as there you're incredible.

Uh, is this included?

Ah yes, absolutely. Thank you so much.

Thank you. My pleasure, by my pleasure, do you again?