#2228 - Josh Dubin
02:23:04 Share

The joe rogan experience.

up. What's up, man? Good to see.

Good to see you.

Ah so I guess we just get right into IT. The last case that we talked about, we had a very unfortunate incident happened after the podcast about a month later. Yeah, the gentleman be headed somebody .

allegedly yes.

yes, there's a lot of allegedly but yeah, there are so many crazy things in that case the crazy thing with him, uh, trying to fool the security cameras with a wig like I guess he didn't know how high resolution cameras had gotten over the twenty five years that he was in jail.

I mean, apparently there's a lot he didn't know the only reason I say allegedly because i'd be a bit of a habituate if I started calling him guilty um yeah yeah as a trial of course based on the surveilLances .

don't look good .

what they say in taxes. I need to shiny.

IT was so crazy because then we went out with them that evening. We brought him to the comedy club who's hanging out with us in the Green room. And then the news broke. And then the comics, well, oh man, what the fuck? What the fuck y didn't bring in that guy around like we didn't know.

I mean.

who could have known he was going to do that other than him?

As as a i'm as shocked over and now as I was in the moment. I mean, yeah, I don't. You know, there are no words I went through um it's really not funny. I mean, i'm only laughing out of sort of nervous ness. Of course I an ah I was in I was in seint Lewis of all places, which is only memorable because that's where I was when someone called me and said, have you looked the news and I said I wasn't caught and I was on a break and. You know, I call them a miracle on the show and yeah and the the media show of that straight of my house, I mean.

of course, but that's what they're gonna he was the only guy that you had ever brought in that was actually guilty that you ve felt was in jail for too long. No, he he got a fifty year sentence for seventy, seventy, and he was reduced to twenty five.

IT was just basically time. So we did about thirty years, and they responded them. Look, I would be, I ve had a lot of time to think about this, and I know you and i've discussed privately, and I kind of went into a hole after this.

My first, this didn't happen to me. A lot of people say i'm so sorry um but some people have said other things that weren't very nice, but the people that I you know regard their opinion or sorry that I didn't happen to me. My first thought was I had two thoughts was that poor guy that got killed um and IT was a gruesome murder IT wasn't just be headed I think .

he was dismembered .

completely going to get and my first thought was for him and his family and then my I think my second and third thought maybe intention was. This tour down fifty years of work that a lot of people have fought really hard for and really need. And I felt like I let you down.

Um you know you've given us some an amazing platform to get stories out for people that really need help. I think we've made a toner progress. We've got some maximum era as a direct .

result of this. Me down at all. No, I didn't appreciate that.

You IT didn't feel like that to meet at all. I was just listen. There's a reality of prison life.

There's a reality of being incarcerated, this reality of taking a person whose convicted of a violent crime and putting them in jail with violent people for thirty years. There's just a reality. And you know, I don't know what history he had with this man that he allegedly killed. But so you can only take so much .

yeah I mean, listen, I don't know my first emotion, this is for me in my therapies, my first emotion usually like guilt. So I once I I took a little bit of time and thought IT through um I mean, of course I come on your show and then you you know split IT all over the news for something not positive.

Good news on the news. I don't pay attention and don't listen anything anybody right about me so I didn't .

want you're rare so look for me. I have to take hard look at what i'm doing and take the mirror out and look straight in IT and say, like, what did I do? What you did nothing wrong.

Well, I don't think you did anything wrong. You just listen. The man had great qualities. He, like when you talk to, is very intelligent, very nice guy. He just thought he could get away with getting payback on somebody.

Yeah, look that super gressier of you. I'm not whether I did something wrong or not typically go to blame um and that's something that I have that's a kink I have to work out in my personality. But let me just articulated because I think what the platform is so important to me and getting these stories out is so important to me.

And I think that where i've landed is that he didn't let me down. He didn't let look I was the public face of his recent saying there was a lot of great people involved and IT wasn't just from the defense. The center for a pilot litigation has an amazing people working on this case.

The director ney of manhattan agreed to this. So on paper um even in their personal interactions with him, there was nothing that raised a red flag for anyone. He didn't let anyone down if he did this, which is people will draw their own conclusion and love a trial.

He didn't let anyone down if he did this, but himself and the people that still need help. And I have to swallow the jacket so that this work comes with some letdowns. Um the recidivism m rate for people that have served long sentences like that is less than one percent IT just happened to happen on a case where I was involved.

I have no.

this is really very low. wow. Well if you look at exonerations recently, things of people that have been incarcerated for more than twenty years, it's that low.

And and you know the the harsh reality is that if you put someone on a public platform and they then do what he supposedly did, it's going to make headlines. I realized something though that. Look, no one could have imagined what's in the dark recesses of that man saw whether it's, you know, his group home are bringing an abuse.

The prison experience is not to making excuse. He did IT if he did IT if he's convicted and he did IT, that's on him. What i'm guilty of is giving a guy second chance.

And and why am I reluctant to say this? I can't apologize for giving someone a second chance. And then, you know, they squander. All I can do is, so what could I have done Better? I mean, I have a deep understanding. I think of what incarceration means I mean I read this book um I was get his named confuses Henry jack abbott or jack Henry abbot has called in the belley of the beast when I was in college and it's a series of letters that this inmate wrote to Normal mailer the fascinating book and about what incarceration does to somebody from the standpoint of um the practical data day from the deep psychosis inducing confinement and everything else and two days before the book was released and IT was reviewed by the new york times, the guy snapped and killed someone in the east village. And no one will know what IT is like to be in there.

And again, I don't want to offer this as an excuse, but what IT has caused me to do is reevaluate and say, look, maybe I need to take a much closer look at what sort of mental health counseling these folks are getting. Like sheldon, I arranged for him to be speaking to a trauma therapist. Should I have been on him more to be going to those appointments? Maybe what was .

the circumstances with the the guy that he allegedly killed?

I don't know if i'm doing IT just because i'm distinction myself from the subconsciously, but I don't know all the circumstances, but apparently this was someone he knew from childhood and from in prison. I've heard rumors and you know stories about the guy threatened the son to um he slash sheldon when they were in prison.

I don't know you remember sheldon that this big gas across his face um but I don't know and I I Frankly don't wanna know at this point because someone lost their life and that me know I think unfortunately for my mental health I just wear that stuff you know if I felt even remotely responsible for that which I do and you know I have to I can I can be at peace with IT but I didn't cause that death and I don't you know I can take some responsibility for IT in the sense that what can I do going forward um where whether it's people that are being exaggerated for crimes they didn't commit or if its people that are getting response ced. You cannot undo decades of confinement. You just can't.

And they all need mental health counseling, all of them. And I have to put that on my shoulders. I just do because, you know, they all have issues and they come out and need mental health counseling.

And there's a stigma attached to IT, especially in african american community. And there shouldn't be. It's no different than if you have a problem with your liver, you know, and you have to take medication. I mean, i've always been up front about the fact that i'm on medication that is nothing to be ashamed of and it's especially warranted when you're in those circumstances. Again, none of this is to making excuse, but I just think that there's a lot more emphasis that I can focus on um a simulation more.

And I think that making sure that they have job training and that they feel safe when they get out, I mean, there hasn't been one person who i've been involved in their case where and when they're innocent, they get out and its a fucking in shock. And I need to be um a lot more sensitive that I think and pay a lot more attention to what they're doing, how they're doing. Again, I had I had the first sight to put sheldon in touch with and ensure that we were getting him mental health counseling with a traumatic erp us.

But I you know I didn't want to metal too much in that because it's on him to go. So I mean, that's where island for Better, for worse. Well, the guy really .

did slashes face. If you've been in literal moral combat with a person and this person is allegedly threatened your son or whatever, you know it's only so much you can do to stop a person from seeking revenge.

I guess.

especially if they don't have any hope outside of the system and they there have been completely institutionally ized, which given the length of his sentences.

reasonable to so yeah you're you're a lot more forgiving and understanding than then a lot of people were and have been about this. You know, I ve had there's been two schools of thought in the reaction. I mean, I got pretty nasty hate mail, and I got a lot of words of encouragement. I think the hate mail outweigh the .

words of encouragement always, but psychological .

always I mean by in in substance and number and probably psychologically um but um that should just gives me fuel you know, if you're sending me fuck you, you race Better you this, you that no yeah yeah. I got a lot of that.

How do but I telling the truth about the state of race in the criminal justice system in this country? I I see the thing is the one, the one force field to have around myself, as when that in coming, I unable to say, okay, thanks for the fuel. Thanks for the fuel.

Never respond to IT um you know unless you doing mental health counseling in a prison, unless you're a corrections officer or police officer um know what it's like to be incarcerated. You have no fucked in business giving me your shady opinion about what you think I am. Are others that do this work, get in the fucking in arena and do IT yourself and I you know so I I take that with a big grain assault.

Um I had um you know I have enough common sense and practical sense to sort of let to disregard that but I have to be a big enough person to look at myself and say, what can I learn from this and what can I do Better because you know have a socket deric hamilton has been on the show and the the deputy director of the the freedom clinic at the pro motor center and you know Derek said, look. Mental health counseling when I was incarcerated was something that was like. IT is fluent, the face of the osburgh s that mentality.

I didn't think they could help me, and I didn't want, want to help. I was mad. And there was a stigma attach to IT that I was soft. If I did IT, I didn't want people in inside knowing um so I don't um or trying to formulate a plan to Normalize mental health counseling in prison. So dick and I are doing a town hall at wang gang, which is a pretty rough prison in new ork on december six to try to get some of the inmates to understand that it's okay to ask for this help. I think when they see Derek and hear his story, it's um it's helpful for them.

So I mean, say something going sound pretty controversial but I think you know one of the one of the conversations that i've had repeatedly how to would jd vans so how to quite a few people is psychiatric therapy for veterans. Um people with severe ptsd because of war, I think are the most deserving of psychiatric therapy in the benefits of IT. The fact that that stuff is scheduled one in his illegal in the united states, I think, is absurd.

It's ridiculous. It's horrible. It's a massive disservice to those people that put their lives in the line and went over an experienced, horrific things that the average persons myself can only imagine.

And you're not going to do a good job imagining IT. I think prisoners could benefit from psychology therapy as well. I think there's a lot of people that could be rehabilitated, changing the way they they view things, literally changing their mind, changing their perspective.

And I think there's a lot of psychology therapies that could aid in that, particularly for people who you know, they're not violent people. They are just had their victim of circumstance or they made bad decisions in their life for what have you. And they are stuck and they're stuck both mentally and physically. And if we want to use prisons as just a deterrent to crime, okay, I think we should probably put some effort towards the habitable, you know, so sincere, significant efforts towards rehabilitation, one of the best ways to do that, try to change the way people view themselves and view the world, and view themselves as a part of the world.

The fact that you would even think that that would be controversial, I think, is just A A by product of the fact that anything that somebody articulates that outside of, like what's considered mainstream is rejected. Unquestionably, the research is overwhelming overwhelm that psychiatric are one of the best um one of the best most effective um therapies for P D S D A.

My fair best has um you know council people with P T S D coming back from war and you know has has a spouse. The not only the advocacy of IT, but how remarkably um different IT is from conventional therapies in the most positive ways. And I could not agree with you more. I think that if you look at some of the european countries that look at their prison systems as a real rehabilitating del may, we have to decide that we we talked about the stats, and i'm not gonna know relitigate that here, but look, we incarcerate people at a higher rate than any other civilization on earth.

So we have to decide, as a society, are we just going to throw people away and put him in cages and make them worse, even if they committed the crime? Or as you said, are we really going to try to read, let people, because some people are getting out no matter what, whether they have people like me involved in other great people that do this work um but they're going to get out. Do you want them out like they were just an animal let out of a cage or do you want them out where rehabilitation is a corner stone of their in incarceration, right? And IT just doesn't happen in our criminal justice is a bizarre attitude .

in this country that we shouldn't do anything to make their life Better rather in there, you know and that's something like psychology therapy is like. That is a luxury. You know that it's something they don't deserve. That is something that should be reserved for .

good people or or some or that there some like um it's for people that are like fucking off and you know the others the two drugs that home mentality.

Yes so .

yeah I listen. I mean, we talk about like looking up at the mountain and saying, can I scale IT I think what you have to do, and i'm talking about this all IT takes, is one state, one municipality, one person who says that interesting. Show us the literature.

We have this amazing policy director at the pro matter center named Sarah too, and she's in the trenches. Having these arguments, having these fights, trying to get forensic labs um you know ensuring that they have the proper training accreditation so that they're not introducing you know various forms of junk science. All IT takes is just the effort going forward to try to start pushing that bolder appeal or else you know again, this goes to um.

You know the incoming hatred in a situation like we had here is like, what the fuck er are you doing to help try to make the situation Better because just calling names and pointing fingers and saying you fucked up or this person that we throw away not worth saving listen, everybody has made some mistake that they wish other people didn't know about, you know and it's not always homicide, obviously but a lot of people have done something that but for the Grace sive got of goede right um what if somebody was looking? If the enforcement was looking IT could be you that was there and would you want a second chance? Would you want redemption IT would you want to help to overcome whatever demons? And I I just think why psychiatrically aren't, you know, looked at cat mean the the little bit that I did going through a dark time IT a IT almost snapped to me in a different direction.

And I mean, I, you know, you urge me onto IT. I mean, you were the one that said you should really think about this. And my therapies urged me on to IT. And I think you know so I know that the literature is there is just we have to get past this is so.

Weird you mention that I was sucking of a guy in the plane on the way down who was found asked me um if marijuana legalization past in florida um because I was told we were talking about, you know where you from this and that and he was telling me that he's from collor ado and he told me that you know in colorado when marijuana was legalized that there was a whole um movement of people that were saying that that would be a gateway drug and that I was going to lead people down the slippery slope to doing other hard core drugs and he said, you know the gulf between smoking weed in turning into a methodically doesn't exist he said that the bridge between the two doesn't exist and if you start walking I wanted use and trying to link IT to drugs that the U. S. Government considers a problem, the link just isn't there so I mean, I you know, he was sort of trying to explain to me how he didn't understand how marijuana is any different than alcohol and I said, will go tell that to the state I don't know what to tell you.

I just not passed .

for the you got fifty eight percent um and needed sixty percent really yeah I don't get that. I just don't get I I fucked more .

than half the people that should be IT why did you need sixty percent? I was the same .

thing with you the amended on abortion and needed to percent maybe was the abortion on the fifty eight percent might be wrong about that. But in event I don't um I don't understand the the resistance psychedelics of therapeutic both in mainstream society, let alone in the prison .

system well IT all goes back to one thousand nine hundred and seventy and go is IT all goes back to the next administration the sweeping psychiatric act of ninety everything schedule one that was designed to IT was designed to cripple the civil rights movement and the anti war movement.

That's what IT was about IT was about having new tools to uh imprison people that were anti war, that we're protesting the war, the black panthers, civil rights organizations, all these people that were doing drugs, you know that were using psychedelics, try to achieve a different state of consciousness, and that brought them to these ideas that were all one, and that wars evil, and that the united states government is being controlled by the military industrial complex. And that this is A A A giant problem in our culture, you know, but people were so weirded out by the timidity learning, and, you know, the the whole tune, you know, turn out whatever the fuck s model was drop out. This whole thing of leaving polite society and being a loser. And just like traveling around when doing drugs in a van like this, is this was like the the, the perspective that people had that was onna, take their kids and turn them into the narrows and turn them into losers. And that we were onna have a society filled with the people that they didn't understand the ethics of hard work and what made amErica great and all all the bulls shit 哇哦。

Look what's born at that is this you know misunderstanding, I guess is the best way to put IT ignorance.

What's propaganda, tim propaganda .

also if you think about like coin intel pro um you know obviously you're spying on people that you think are others are legalizing that um intelligence gathering that allows you to start violating people's civil liberties so that you can gain intelligence on them because the way they think is unlike you.

So you know it's again sort of to me um all ties back to the very best tribal mentality that you either like us or you like them and everything that you mention the psychedelics act um the resistance to the civil rights movement IT was all based on the fact that look where we have A A potential uprising here of people that are going to chAllenge the way we think and the way we do things right so people that call me a race biter, right I you know, I feel like a more of a truth teller and just taking the thread through history and you know I I have at least all read and try to educate myself and get perspective um if IT wasn't a fact that Brown and black men and women get incarcerated at a higher ate, I wouldn't be talking about IT and i'm just talking about facts so I think that is just this tribal misconception about these are drugs and their bad verses. You sit and speak to someone and take some you know farm logic form of therapy that has probably wayward side effects, can be addictive and can lead to whole host of other issues that you then have to take something else to address. This is just being having the openness to take a look at a different way to potentially help someone. So I don't understand IT. And the only thing that that I can do is just to keep on being open minded and you know try to figure out if there's other ways that we can convince the people that are in these penetang tarses and that run them to allow programs that at least give you a crack in the door to get in.

But I think the way the door waited that is the first show the effectiveness uh, with veterans and uh with other people that aren't incarcerated and that once that gets established and once that become something, I think it's much, much more established. Now that IT was when I first start talking about this stuff twenty years ago, you know um like probably when i've had my first experiences was a little more than twenty years ago.

I think people had this very ignorant idea that was borne out of propaganda because you have to think twenty years ago was only thirty years removed from the sweeping psychiatric act. So you're dealing with the whole society. It's been just programmed by propaganda and lies, and that those propaganda lies were established in order to validate this one group of the population that was completely changing the culture, the difference in the ted states culture from one thousand nine and sixty five to one thousand and fifty five to one thousand nine and sixty five, was so dramatic.

IT was such an enormous shift, you know, then the vietnam AR, the protests, all these things that were happening in the sixties, the music, everything was changing so radially and so drastically, that the people in power had a very like an an accurate sense that they were losing control. And that change was inevitable. And they threw water on IT, and they did a great job. If you look at IT from that perspective, the difference to treat me is terrible what they did. But he was effective in that from one thousand.

A great job. Water, yeah.

a great job of changing culture, which was changing in A A potentially beneficial way for everyone to get us to recognize that we, we truly are all one, and that the way to make things Better for everyone is to make things Better for the most disadvantaged. And this was the civil rights movement, right? And this was the entire war movement. This was, this was recognized that people are being taken advantage by the military industrial complex and just sent overseas so they get profit.

amen. I. The first guy that I met that really like change my perspective on on the world, especially in terms of what what I could potentially do as a lawyer was Jerry left court.

Jerry love court was a behove man's lawyer. He was the lead attorney in the pant for twenty one trial. I was like a kid. I was in my late twenty years, and I was met with him to help him pick a jury on a case. And I had read about him before, and he saw something in me. We hit IT off he became like my like my sr get uncle and he would regal me with tales of his um of the panda twenty one trial and here's a guy that was kind of winging IT and as late twenty is and can feel the change that you are talking about happening and he could feel the weight against him, the push back coming from the other side where he would get death threat, he would get a bomb threats at his office, where he could not even see his client in jail approaching trial and had to get on a Cherry packer in in outside the jail to be able to get even with the window so the can communicate so Jerry left cord um any by the way, got a full acquittal in the pant there are twenty one trial against all odds he was the first person I told me about coin and tel pro and what the go with the links that the government will go to um when they feel like their message, their um way of doing things is being chAllenged.

And I think that you hit the nail right on the head, which is this was like a fu in the face of of um leave a to beaver and flew in the face of you know father knows best IT flew in the face of what White amErica was trying to instill as a value system that should be followed by all people without question for all time and people started to say, what the fuck is this about I want to explore the messiness and the um the grey areas of what that means to exist the human being and that expression um whether I was Richard nicks on the people around him that got their backs up um you know so if you are a student of history and um you start to understands s or why we're here rather than just looking here and forward. I think these things for me are a little bit easier to understand. Um when somebody comes at me and calls me a raise matter for the work that I do because I talk about the problem of race, I understand that that's born out of ignorance and I don't mean ignorance like you're dummy. I mean ignorance like .

you're don't have access to .

the information. Yeah you chose not to have access to you.

Your perspective is incorrect.

Easy courses book between the world and me it's a fascinating fucking tail.

It's a letter written from this in a black man to his fifteen year old sun and IT is um it's a life ordering book for me because I put you into his soul of what IT has been like to grow up as a black man in this country and IT IT IT stops me my tracks when I think about IT when I talk about IT because it's like the only way that we can get to a more common understanding is to, you know, I think, to read books like that and to talk to people. And you're so closed off and closed minded. And again, I I keep on sort out in this disclosure imer.

Maybe this is my my aversion to like getting attacked. I am not excusing if sheldon did this. I just think that um it's not so simple as oh, you like some good you hope some guy get out and get presents and look what he did and fuck all these people and fuck your movement okay, you're entitled to that opinion.

That's where I leave IT. Yeah you can't listen those people. You know what you do. You're smart. You can't listen. It's just you're gonna have those people always going exist? There's always going to be people with limited information perspective now. And limited information people sometimes are the loudest and the most vocal about IT and also the ones who are released willing to objectively assess how they came to the conclusions that they're so vocal and loud about, you know, limited information people that is a big mean. That's why click .

line work well, look I mean love that's why you get attacks sometimes by you know you don't know bad because you don't read IT.

That's why you get attacks sometimes .

you one one in my family um a couple of mine said me um a link to a story. About you endorsing trump and wrote, what the fuck and I said, right, what the fuck? Why are you sending this to me? Like first all, what the fuck? What the fucker?

You would you because you all a sudden support this woman who buy the way probably should have accepted the amit to come on show. That might have been the difference between people getting to actually know who the fuck you was but putting that aside, it's like I have to do a much Better job of filtering that stuff out because the notion that um me know. You are.

Are gonna be influences by outside forces other than what you're doing? Like for you to say, you know what you're doing, i'd like to think I know what i'm doing and I feel like i'm doing good things and I just got ta keep on working in that direction, not let what and slow me down. Try to learn from IT and go forward.

Look, I don't want this to come across as like constantly. Being like A. Situation where every time I get only I thank you. But I think the importance of this forum was was made clear by having the president on by having the vice president on because it's the only open forum where you don't have to worry about being judged about someone shopping up what you say and twisting IT or leaving some reMarks on the cutting room floor.

And is, is, is also important because you don't give a fuck about what other people say or think, and you just do what you feel. This is the right thing to do because, I mean, i've told you privately, i'll say now again, I would have been the the easy thing for you to do would have been to say, fuck this guy, i'm turned to my back. I don't need to have a more .

again was never gonna see what you've done is amazing. And the people that you uh have brought on the show have changed a lot of people's perspectives about our justice system, a lot of people you've thought on some incredible people and you've told some incredible stories. And as you said, people been exonerated for crimes that they didn't commit.

If you are a person, is listening to this, and you, if you could be fucked by the system, it's possible you could be trapped by a corrupt prosecutor. IT happens then. God, IT hasn't happened to you. But if I did happen to you, you would pray that there's a josh dub in the world that pays attention to your case.

You know, I appreciated. And I mean, I know it's not just me. There's understand there's a village .

people but a person like you, you know. And I think highlighting that and highlighting the need for that and an understanding of how the system can arrow you and the system can really fuck you over. I think one of the things that we saw during the the trump uh campaign was the legal system being used against one of the most powerful people in the world, and how they can get away with turning thirty four mister miners.

So IT essentially one misdemeanor, thirty four versions of thirty four riding in a ledger incorrectly that's a mister minor, and is past the statute, can be converted into a felony and turned against a guy who is running for president as law fare. It's just completely using the legal system to try to attack a guy and try to take him out of the race, and also tried to label him a convicted felon. So once you have this label, a convicted felon, you heard IT on all the talk shows convicted felon, convicted feeling, but enough people had a chance to look at the circumstances of the case and and understand what was actually, what was actually been tried for paying someone off to not talk about how you fuck them.

Is that what we're worried about? Are we worried about world, world three? Is that what we worried about? We worried about terror cells like being established in the united states because our borders wide open as we are.

We worried about the Price of groceries and people being able to feed themselves. That's what we should be fucking worried about. Not whether not some guy fuck someone like who cares.

Well, so it's so um interesting to me because the conversation that people in the legal community in new york are having at the time, I cannot tell you how many times didn't matter what side of the spectrum neuron politically but in new york there's a lot of fuck and democrats and I can tell you how often I got this call.

What is the crime? Er what I mean with regarded that particular case first of all the D M manhattan seemed to um realized that I was a fatal endeavour to go after the sky and retreated. And then something happened in the you remember the the special prosecutors quit because they were furious of apparently that the da wouldn't go forward the case then um something happens in between.

And alvin brag, the this attorney of manhattan proceeds with the case. So many legal scholars. And what is the crime here? I understand there's a series of missing miners that somehow gets flipped into a felon.

Legal scholars that had issues with IT. And if they spoke about a publicly, they were attacked. Alan dershowitz was one of them. He was attacked, anyone that would speak out. And there's this fear for good legal minds to get behind defending a case like that because it's viewed in um democratic strongholds like script tonight right um so mean remarking on that case. Yeah IT was weapon zed against him and that's why I think IT was this morning.

The judge in that case agreed to a joint motion, but the prosecution and the defense to put everything on hold because they are deciding whether or not they're going to dismiss that case. And if you remember the the drum that was constantly beat before this election was home. Never get out of these statements. Es the federal ones we understand because he can party himself. But the state cases, all those, you're going to be a problem.

Well, not so fast, right? Because now if IT was that much of A A crime and that people were so open arms Better, why are they now considering dismissing IT? And I think that the the IT puts the the lie to the notion that this was really something that we wanted to making example out of. And you can engage in this type of conduct. What conduct you know, IT was obviously politically motivated.

And you know when that happens all over the country, IT happens all over the country on both sides of the eye though um we have have a case right now that informed to be able to say this is probably um you know I had to think, is this is this the crazy as fuck in case I ve had and and IT has to be IT has to be um because the D A that is sitting in judgment of whether or not these four men that i'm going to tell you about in a moment right before the election for him to become D A get indeed he gets invited for allegedly like harassing a former employee and then trying to bribe her not to file complaining against him something like that right before the election and all of a sudden he is now embroiled in this. He loses the election couple weeks ago and he is now finds himself wrongful, according to him, wrong, fully accused of a crime didn't commit. Well, my client um is I go by the name of john adwords and there were four guys.

This is an lin ohio lin county, ohio john adwords, len worth Edwards, Benson Davis and a guide me al cleveland, new york guys um in the early nineties who were selling drugs at ohio, they were going back and forth from ohio in new york and one morning um a man by the name of apps is found dead in the street. His roommate is found about seven hours later woman, the more Blake dumped in an ali um behind a shopping center. The case is called for a month.

The police have hit dead ends. They have nowhere to go with the case. The prosecutors office offers a two thousand dollar reward for anyone with information about the case.

Wouldn't you know that the next day, a man by the name William, every senior, walks in to the the rain county prosecutors office. They sit him down with the police and he says, I have information about the case. Now this guy, will you be senior, was a known inform the police name he had come and try to give information about other cases, didn't pan out.

He was also a drug added. And they sit with him for over an hour and they said him, everything you're telling us has been in the papers, so you're not given us anything. New year he shows up the next day with the sun.

Will he be junior? And he says he witnessed the murder so well, liam, a junior, talks to the police. At the end of that interview, he goes, what about the reward money? And the officer says, let's turn the tape recording off and let's talk about that.

They tell him we're not giving you the reward money because now you're telling us that information that's been in the papers and all you're telling us is that you saw martia likely assaulted in an apartment. You're not telling us anything about the murder. The very next day he shows up and says that out, cleveland told him that he murdered marsh.

likely. So let's put a bookmark in ic because I decided I wanted to do something a little bit different today. Um at the end of the episode, I want to give you a twitter account i've submitted today a forty page submission, all of the exhibits that are mentioned in that submission to the Lorin county prosecutor.

His name is jd. thomlinson. So now we will invite the public before you go writing a letter to him or calling him, you read the submission and look at the exhibit yourself. Because what often happens is that in these three investigations, prosecutors officers have something called a conviction integrity unit, where they say they'll reinvestigate the case.

And the very first thing they make you do assign a no media agreement that you won't go to the media because the last thing they want you to do is what I just did is to talk about the case publicly. So we're not in a conviction integrity unit. We're trying to appeal to a prosecutor, jd. Thomson, who from what I understand, is told aleve an's wife, because I spoken her, her name's Roberta, great woman, came up to her in the summer at a barbecue and said, when I was a law student, I SAT in on your husband's trial, and IT always bothered me. And I want you to come in and have your lawyers come in.

I'm going to do the right thing and now that he's been ended, he has gone silent have been heard from him of text that I see read my messages because he has read receipts on and I guess he doesn't know that um and i've asked him first time I think in his wild of dreams he probably never could have imagined that the case was gonna become national news um he has between now and december thirty first to do the right thing and exonerate them the incoming da would never do that. I don't think from what i've heard. So i'm going to invite the public and i'll give you the link at the end, and I want to tell you the rest of the story um because some of the things I tell you, you're gonna say come on that can be true.

So I have the exhibit sitting in a for everybody to read. But um you know the I think that the justice system has been weaponize against jade thomson because he was coming up for a real election. There's all sorts of like personal animosity between him and the guy that just got elected. There's allegations at least that the guy that just got elected helps was somehow involved in um you know getting him edited by a special prosecuting I don't know sure or not but IT doesn't just happen on the big national stage. IT happens all over the place and you just don't know.

hear about IT. But I think the fact that IT happened on the big national stage, the way I did, and not just the case of the hush money, but also the case of moral logo being overvalued, which is preposterous. That was one of the most ridiculous ones they listed at.

what? Seventeen and eighteen million dollars? I would buy five of those if they are available for eighty million dollars. How much money you would make for .

that kind of property? No, it's dinner.

A bunch I seen.

It's fuck it's magnificent yeah you walk in there and you feel like, you know margry post bought IT and had a design its magnificent forbes.

I think had valued IT between seven and nine hundred million dollars. That true find out what the valuation was but like independently before all this shit, IT had been valued. And I think .

trump a and he's doing IT to the bank.

paid on with interest. Everything was fine. And that nobody there, zero victims involved in this.

And the fact that they want to say that IT was actually so what does this say here? Okay, three fifty. okay. So the club had revenues of twenty five point one million for the county year of two thousand thousand and twenty two in two thousand and twenty and twenty one and two thousand and twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty two forms estimate the value of the state around three hundred and fifty million dollars. I think trump jacked IT way harder than that.

And I think I read somewhere that someone had said between seven and nine, if you could like what a real state evaluation would be like, what it's actually worth in the state that it's at. I think there was an issue though that IT was wasn't IT like listed as a national historic landmark. Er sometimes that jammy right so then you really can't do anything to IT which d values at someone.

But still I would think, listen.

eighty million is fucked in crazy.

There's no property like that anywhere. Um you feel like you in europe when you're there. Um IT is IT is a magnificent place and has some of the best food in flava. Um so I don't and I don't know they part of the valuation of something like that seems to me to be a bit subjective. It's now the home um of the sitting two time president of united states um so yeah but putting all that aside.

just the real state alone there there a lot that was sold next to IT or a home that was sold next to IT, there was fifty million .

dollars and they it's not just moral logo across the street. They have the beach club that sits right on the beach. But the point is, is that they're meddling into you.

Look, the bank could have said, well, we're going to send them a praise er out there, right? And we're going to determine whether or not we agree with you that is worth that. That happens for anyone that's ever sold home. So again.

the point is there's no victim. The point is like there he was not like he got this loan and then defrauded the bank and then defaulted on his loan and then pocketed the money. No, no.

He paid everything back with the interest. IT was profitable for the bank. Everything worked out. It's like, this is a bulls shit case. Everyone knows is the bullshit case. So that's another one that was in the news that everybody got a chance to see fully.

hopefully opens people's eyes. Like there's a lot of White collar crimes that i've been um a defense lawyer on um where you see the human cost of a prosecution, what IT does to the person accused but also their family and to somehow crawl out from under the weight of the the federal government. These take years and unfortunate to defend and often times you're thinking, why did they bring this case?

What who are the victims here and they come up with some loss calculation that a very theoretical and talking about cases where you can point to a victim that lost money and um you know you wonder why some prosecutions are brought and others aren't and you see again what that does to none only devastate families and the accused, but is IT really determine one I would never, ever entering industry where I was working with stocks, bonds, commodities, anything that was regulated in any way by funeral, the S. C. C, because, oh, that seems like they can make a case sometimes when there isn't a case to be made. And hopefully, you know, regardless of what's that, the political spectrum, me on what happened, the trump should be ee opening to people because you don't have to agree with him or his politics or his policies to see what's happening today as we sit here when everything's being reconsidered and and you think about the massive expense that um IT takes the prosecute these cases that I has, I don't care what anybody says about him. He's gonna one of the toughness mother faker you've ever met to stare down all of this, and most people would be in a bottle to stare down these prosecutions and the threat of going to jail and everything else that breaks a lot of people here.

And then two assignation times.

Yeah, he is described. He's built. He's built different yeah yes.

the guys seven, eight years old and I talked him for three hours and he didn't pee before. He didn't pay afterwards to SAT here, talked, we didn't lose any energy and then flew off to do campaign. Yeah.

listen, I hope, I wish him all the success in the world. I hope he does well, I I got this. Um you can vote for common haris after what you've said Better.

You're right. yeah. I voted for jill stein because this two party system to me is fucked.

You know, you gotten like if you gotta be with us or them, and then there are all kinds of gas lighting that goes on. You have to answer the people. I just feel there should be more choices.

That's there certainly should be.

That's a different .

you you know, you spoke on the podcast about her history as a prosecutor in what he had done. And I know they contacted you after after yeah I mean.

what was happening? This was way back yeah when I think IT was days before he was selected to be the vice presidential running made for violin. But I think IT was carpenter who was that his name is a great congressman. He wasn't I patch no .

oh 点 crd cranch a no carbon .

dancin' will took a clip from the podcast and was circulating IT on twitter。 Um you know I was of me being critical over and you know and again, that's a situation where he had so many opportunities during this campaign to just say, listen, I obvious I watched a little vin yet about this family who was prosecuted for their human child and a ruin them um so all of this i'm a prosecutor and i'm going to prosecute the case against this that that petrified me because I have sudden rooms with prosecutors that just want to be right and win.

And I would just say, please just open your mind a little bit. I was just I just SAT in a room with a conviction integrity unit and there were prosecutors in the room where and I I can't sign one of those agreements. So I can't name the case or the city or the borrow um but where the the prosecutor went to federal prison for driving witnesses and is accused of the same conduct in this case where he was giving money to someone who was recanted their testimony and the prosecutor sitting in the room like IT wasn't that they weren't open mind, that they had their mind made up before we got in there and you feel like saying, can you just listen, just listen.

They just want to win yeah and I think that that that is my problem with the two party system is that is you're on this side, you're on this side and there's no room for gray area between the issues I have. I have a friend who. I mean, I learned so much during this election I have a friend who is from central amErica and um SHE was telling me I didn't want trump won the first time.

I was furious I couldn't stand the guy um but when I came to this country, I saw my mom fight for citizenship and I saw what he had to go through the right way for me to get citizenship and he says so I just can't vote for anybody bought him so everybody has their own reasons for doing IT doesn't mean IT has to be all about a culture personality and you're voting for endorsing everything about the person. And I think that you know having that understanding that you know a look a lot of people that support to a friend of my the other day that grandparents were in the holidays, grandfather survived the holo cost and he voted for a trump because he's like, I didn't feel protected by the other side you know as as the grants on of people that went through that. So yeah, I just think that watching a system get weaponize against someone in that in that way it's upsetting. And hopefully, like you said, IT opens people's eyes to the fact that if they could do IT to the president, yeah, they could happen you.

And it's so transparent. IT was so transparent. IT wasn't like he committed the murder. And there's lot of evidence point, the fact that he committed this murder, no, was just a crime that didn't make any sense. You going to spend millions and millions dollars prosecuting this crime.

You going to create IT around for the whole world just so the democrats can have this talking point, convicted violent. And you should see IT repeated over and over again on msnbc and CNN. These poundings want to say convicted felon.

They want to say that like, what's the fucking crime? Tell me what the crime is. But when you want to get smart and spout of facts, wanted you tell me about the case because i've looked at IT and it's fuck in bananas. And if that happened, you you'd be terrified because they just made a crime. They made a felony and something sound of felly.

I mean, listen. The M. If you're looking for logic and reasoning in any of these, you are not going to find that.

I mean, listen, I terrible, but I feel different about some of the cases like I feel like the you know the election case is has has the most substance to IT, you know, standing opening the elections in the elections. Rick, I have a problem with that. But you know, obviously more than have the country didn't have as much of a problem with IT.

And when I was one of the ones that I said was the weird, where he didn't have an answer ready, that you should have an answer ready right away. If I had been accused of something that like that, and I strongly believed that the elections were rigged, i'd be able to give you facts right away.

But he can. Who's this facts really? July onion, know, I know my pillow.

but that's the things like, I don't know how much time he has to investigate the cases, right? So he has probably people telling him things. And who are these people and what is the evidence? What's the information? I, I, I would hope that if you have something that's so controversial like you ran for president, you believe you should have won and they rigged IT. You should have data that you could spit out at any cocktail party.

But he doing the same thing that you're talking about, C N N and M S N B C do, which is just repeating the same thing. When people were standing in line voting couple of weeks ago, he was saying the election was, this election was rigged and proof IT must have they have straighten IT out because he won. But I don't what he .

was saying was they were trying to break the election.

And I think that have the well.

there's the one thing of bringing in people to the country illegally and then pushing for analyst's, which was they were doing.

they were, yeah, I just don't know the numbers on IT. I know its millions of people.

If you think about the amount of people that came into the country, right, and you think about how some of these swing states, either human of votes, was like seventy five thousand that switched IT one way or another. And just you could imagine if you're bring in millions and millions of people and you moving him to swing states.

yes, if that's true, when the evidence against IT was like.

well, they're not all moving in the swing states, okay, you can't tell people where they can. I can't move once they come to the united tes. If they have family in texas or they have family, this an ever, they are going to go over the fact they want to go.

But a significant number of them were in the country. If you bring in ten million people, you have a quite a bit of a buffer. It's not a perfect system. But if you're trying to let people in illegally and then give them not just protection, but also money, food, food stamps, housing, taking care of them and then giving them an incentive to vote for the party, they did that to them when the other party wants to. They want to round people up in master potential.

Yeah but putting party aside, what evidence did you see documentary evidence the people were registering to vote and how many of them it's not .

that they were registering to vote. The issue is that there's no voter I D, which is fucking insane. You need an I D for everything. This I D where is .

there no voter .

ID Harris want some states that require voter I D contrary to online claims fact cks. So also there's an online chart incorrect. The people .

passing around .

see that what states that SHE win that have voter ID, which is get there certain like deep state, deep blue states, that is that the two vice president also won to hamp shire, which requires photo I D, but allows individuals without one either have their identity confirmed by a designated visual or filled enough of David um Harris also won both delaware in Virginia. So there is a couple states that he won that have voter I D but these these are like these deep blue states.

Fair enough. Look, I don't know the .

question is the swing .

states I don't know enough about IT. And I I live in a in a world where I need the evidence but backing up to the other election. Look, if i'm just saying if there was one case where I was like common man.

you know what's weird about the the one the twenty twenty that we keep going back to is the amount of people voted. That's that's really crazy.

More, more, more. And I don't know what to make that. Well.

it's the first time ever you have million baLance to use bike. Sly, you know, that wasn't a thing before. Male baLance, essentially for people that were overseas, think.

I think covey had a big part.

Sure he did, but also never, you know, miss an opportunity. And if you wanted to cheat, that would be the way to do IT. And they tried to keep voted male and baLance, keep your voting by male and baLance when it's not necessary. It's not a sounds good, seems crazy.

it's us, but it's not to me. I live in a world that you cannot say that like that without backing IT up. But listen, whether I don't, I have started to really fear away from having a strong political view and just putting my head down and doing what I can. So I don't I mean, I don't see the evidence on the prior election. I see the claim repeated a lot I just did in .

I don't see the evidence either, but I do see evidence that people are trying to make IT easier for illegal to vote. That deserves me. The the pathway to citizenship has always been kind of difficult. And when you talk to people that have done in the right way, it's very hard. They have to go through review. They have to hope that this person decides that their person worthy of being in this country, and you had to be a person of extraordinary scale in talent where that talent and skill wasn't available in the united states.

Listen, I recently moved at a new york to florida, and I got my drivers' license and register to vote pretty quick after I moved there. My wife didn't when we went to vote. They won't let her vote because IT hadn't been thirty days yet. Um so all I could says that in florida they required an and they didn't let my wife.

California literally passed a law where you not allowed to ask for ID, which is crazy. Yeah, that is crazy. That's crazy. Well.

why would you do that? What would .

be the most charitable .

version of what you would cussing california recently? And seems like A. It's a little bananas to live in california right now.

It's fuck increasing. Yeah, he's so gonna get Better either know a lot more people voted red in california have seen the mount of twenty twenty verses. Here is a giant significant shift and that keep going on.

The states gonna read. And I think if this state keeps falling apart, people going to come to their senses and recognize that the policies that they have in place right now, or fuck and gross the growth. And you've got a bunch of bureaucrats that are profiting off of the homes situation.

They're taxing the fuck and shit out of people. The state tax is fourteen. If you live in ella's. Another one, see if fifteen percent of all your money just goes to incompetence.

It's the same thing in new york city. I mean, you your giving to the state, to the city, you end up paying way more than if you make enough money, you underpaying way more. Here's the rob.

I don't get about democrats, all right? This is the thing that bothers me about democrats. And this is why I registered finally, an independent, the we hear about the american dream a lot, the american dream, the american dream.

I was a son of a teacher. Now I sound like a politician who's a son of a teacher. And did that? Yeah, grow middle.

I grow the middle glass, right? And we had to grind that out. And there were financial problems, everything else. So the american dream is to make IT on your own, to be self made. And then you get to that point, and you get demonized for IT.

Now you need to give back in a way that how dare you not give more than half your effective salary, more than half your income? If you live in california, in new york, right? You give IT away fifty two percent, fifty two percent.

You end up feeling like, what the fuck? What do I do wrong? I get back in so many other ways .

this might take on that if they were doing a great job and they were legitimately king people's Better. I'd be fine with that if there was a system where I had to pay fifty percent because I make a lot of money and I had to pay fifty percent, but that fifty percent was changing people's live. They could show you all the success stories. It's like revolutionizing the way poor people are allowed .

to make IT out of that situation. Didn't feel that california washing or the corrupt politicians who are profiting .

off of narratives and their a bunch of dirty people who don't even follow their own fucking and rules, particularly gave a newsome does the in follow zone rules is the guy, that guy I busted in the middle of pandemic. Where are no mask indoors eating at the french launching? It's all bullshit.

It's all bullshit. And the people felt really fucked, imprisoned by IT. They felt really captured by their government. And that's why a lot of people move.

He's got great hair.

What is a great sort of version of what you'd expect of a politician?

Just what is great hair get you so far.

people want great hair, good jeans, tall and great hair. IT means a lot of people.

yeah, I don't. I don't. We're stupid.

Yeah, stupid. There's a lot of stupidity involved in why we choose things.

You know, I read, I read this article once about how um there was a oppole done of female voters when bill clinton around the first time and they asked the reasons why and he was multiple choice and one of them was that he was good looking and had full head of hair. They want to fuck him, and apparently he wanted to fuck them.

Was great president though. I mean, what in terms of policy, in terms would defer the economy? Guy was a great president.

great orator. I great, except for the fact that mass incarceration kind of started with them.

Yes, the crime bill .

of ninety four yeah um so I think that our prison industrial .

complex picked is this is the guy running against all that yes. So bullshit.

You know I don't IT was very interesting to me that this is playing out in real time with with the incoming president and I have this parallel situation going on in ohio. This got a weve leaving back to ohio and I want to tell you the rest of the story about the ohio four. Um so this guy, the jd.

Thompson, is that the prosecuting attorney in the rain he's under entitled right now is got two months left. Um like I said, he now knows according to him what it's like to be wrongfully accused of a crime so watch this. You have these four guys who so again, it's out.

Cleveland, landwards that words. John, adwords bends. And Davis, yeah, you gotta light .

up for this one.

So I told you what you, everything you goes in tries to get the reward money. They tell him, fuck off, brings the sun in the next day. They said to him, no dice. Then he comes back and says, okay, i'll cleveland told me he committed the murder comes time for um their trials to begin and they're going to all be tried separately.

And William junior gives this account of how this murder happened and he says that he watches this woman martial likely get beat for fifteen to twenty minutes inside of our apartment and that you know the reason um he this woman gets beat is because all cleveland wanted him to work off a dead and beat her up and he said no so then these four men bust in the door and that this is how the crime occurs that comes time for the first trial of these four men and William every junior shows up as the prosecution star witness and he says, I want ten thousand dollars to testify. Begin me to, I want ten thousand and the prosecutors say, were not give minute to you and he says that i'm not testifying. The judge throws him in jail.

He's in jail. He is cool as heels as they say. And he says, you know. I made this whole thing up and I did IT for the money and no one believes them.

And the judge has, what are you talking about? You gonna get on the stand and testifies, no, i'm not. And now he's facing potential porter y charges.

The judge declares a mistake. He then comes back with the news story to the prosecutors and says he witnessed the beating. He witness other details of the crime.

He then goes on to testify at all four of their trials. After the first missal, they all get convicted. He then fully reacts of his own violation, says he got off drugs, says he wants to straight out his life.

He's in the process of CoOperating with the F, B, I and the secret service. Now these exhibits are sitting in this folder. You go to twitter.

It's free. The ohio for free. The ohio four there is. And if you just click on that, your own follow.

Well, for there is there is A A .

reason because I didn't put IT up until right for the episode with you.

So i'm going .

right now be the .

first follow. If you click on that.

IT will bring you to a folder with this forty page submission that I put in today and references to all of the exhibits. So here is all, this is my first page at the trials of our monday. That was his students. M, our clever and students at the trials of our monday.

And those charged with my testified under oath that I was an eye witnessed alfear cleveland, who I knew is monday, along with other people I knew as jr, willing shock kim was john at words, beat martial lakely at fluid up apartment and then murder her behind charlies born in the rain. All of this was a lie. I never witnessed the murder.

Martially was not with her or our clean the night he was murdered. I only done IT for the money, and everything was not true. The entire case was built on this man. There's no forensic evidence, no eyewitnesses, nothing. So this is not to be believed.

What was the reason why they thought this woman and the other men were murdered?

They didn't know. They had no theory.

Police had no connection to them.

No connection to them.

There was no theory, like drug deal gone wrong.

That was what they ended up coming up with, was that he was a drug user, cliver, almost a drug dealer, and must have been drugs gone wrong. So something involving drugs gone wrong. So William, every junior is, after they get convicted, is working as an informant for the FBI and the secret service.

Now, prior to this case, maybe this is how of two I am. I thought that the secret services preview was the president, but apparently they have other investigative functions because he was working on some food stamp scheme. As an informed, the secret service tells the FBI, and the testimony is in that exhibit file.

The secret service tells the FBI, this guy volume every junior. He's not to be trusted. He's lying to us, and he's lying to us for money. They contact the prosecutor.

The FBI calls the prosecutor in the rain county and says this guy of William junior used them as an informant in that case, against these four minutes, a liar, and he does this for money. So they end up getting how cleveland lawyers, john Edwards lawyers lend worth that words, but they ve said and up getting an evidentiary hearing. And royal junior comes to testify and he's coming to testify that I made the whole thing up and he's in very exclusive detail.

His father, who obviously brought him there, threatened his life. He was SAT him down and smoke crack with him to come down. You can make this shut up with you with the affidavit.

He stand .

down to smoke to .

calm down.

I need that reward money for my drug habit. He was a fucking in june y so he needs the reward money and he gets his son to go in there. And it's obvious if you watch the if you read the interrogation in his testimony, he's being LED.

They show him pictures of the apartment where this woman was allegedly beat. He's getting details wrong. You know, he changed his story, was telling conflicting versions of the story. So at these post conviction hearings where these men should have all been exonerated, he gets understand and before he testifies, the judge says him, have you been advised, um you have an attorney said, I don't think I need an attorney and he tells volume am every junior well, you need an attorney.

We're going to point you an attorney because you're about to purge yourself because you either did one of two things, you either lied and I put four men in prison or you're about the line now to set them free. Either way, you've lied on the roof. Think about the mind fuck of this.

So this guy is coming to clearest, concise and the judge thread them with prosecution. So he gets in appointed attorney and they go and ask the prosecutor where you give him a unity so he can tell the truth. They say, no.

His defence tourney asks the judge, will you give him a unity so he can tell the truth? And the judge says, no good. And they tell him, we're going to charge you with perjury if you tell the truth.

He walks out of the courthouse, okay, after pleading the fifth and is interviewed by the local paper, walking out of the course that in the exhibits, and he says, they are all innocent. I made the whole thing up. I've been trying to tell the truth here, but I can call to jail for whatever time they're going to give me.

So here you have a guy that is the son of a known jack. He has been the prosecutors in this in the rain county have told um have been told by the F B I that he's not reliable, that he makes things up just to get money. He's been caught in lie after lie after lie and now he comes and wants to tell the truth and set these men free and the crazy and and this judge put him in the situation where he he can tell the truth or else he's going to a get prosecuted.

This is what happens in this country. This is the kind of thing that in these four men, two of them, around two of them are serving life sentences. Al cleveland's wife, Robert cleveland, saw this D.

A. And he said he was going to do the right thing. He knew that the case was problematic and now because he's worried about his own indictment, you know he's not responding.

So what we're asking for is your listeners to go through and read this very detailed submission that I ve made along with the ohio innocence project, the ohio public offenders um and a great attorney um by the name of kim coral, who you actually you actually had a good laugh over one time, oddly enough, because he was at the White house. When can I west was there he was he was like apparently like standing over him smiling. And you were like, look at this fucking and girl SHE just thinks that like, hello, fuck that I get here. He told me about IT this morning.

Did you feel that way? Hello, fuck that I get .

here is he probably did. He is super cool. I spoke her this morning.

She's a bad and he was like, I never met him, but he seems he did have a good laugh at my expense. When can I was in the White house? So yeah, yes, that's hard. You .

remember.

this kid is so funny, but .

is awesome.

But so we're asking your listeners to go and read the exhibits, read the submission and then I have a contact page call jd. Tomlinson, write him a letter. Look, these four men, thank you, jammy.

These four men um certainly were drug dealers all cleveland. We've established our client valence alby, john adwords alby, check this shoot out. His alibi witness was damon john from shark tank.

He testified in his fucking and trial. I post conviction hearings. Damon john back then was a hard scrapple new yorker.

He was doing whatever he could to ground out. This is before foobar. And he was friends without cleveland, all needed to move to have A T.

V. moved. And damon had, like a gypsy cab service as a car service in new york.

You lived in new york, right? Remember what I was like? You call a cab service. Yeah, a car service. And he was without cleveland the day of these urges, our cleveland sauce product officer.

The day after the murder, people saw him all over new york when the murders s happen. John Edwards was with his girlfriend, his girlfriend's family throughout the night from like ten, eight, nine to three in the morning. His girlfriend was pissed off him because he was floating with some girl in the bar.

Um so these guys have alibis. There is no question. They had absolutely nothing to do with this crime.

This woman march likely was murdered, right? Here's the one of the strangest facts in this case. He is seen all over town, all over town at the time.

They claim that you that this that this guy William every originally claimed he was murdered SHE is seen by family member's friend. She's looking for crack. She's um walking down the street way after this guy claims that happened.

How was he murdered?

SHE SHE was throat was cut and SHE was run over by a car, right? So we've talked about tonne l vision before. And when the police think they have the guy that a problem on their hands, they couldn't solve the crime.

And they have these guys that are drug dealers in the area. So they become easy Marks for this. There's a blade sitting in a diagram found right next to martial lee's body.

They never tested IT for the, they never collected IT. They never tested IT. IT was at a time when DNA the early nineties DNA was around her romney apps. Rainman apps is bound a mile two down the road with his throat slit and run over.

Same thing.

same thing. No one's been charged. No one's been charged. It's an unsolved case as of this day why they painted on these guys and this guy will be junior only.

He came in with information about one of the murders. The cases were so clearly connected that the medical examiner pointed that out these people were killed in the same way. Why there isn't an outrage of fucking outrage about this case is is beyond me.

When I got this case, I said there is no way what you're telling me is true that this guy has come and wants the clearest conscience and tells you exactly what happened in the FBI told the prosecutors that is a liar and these guys are still to over are still serving life sentences and when you have to live stamped as a murrell um even in the free world you know how cleveland is out and he's suffering I mean I had to listen to his wife. Having SHE couldn't get a hold of herself because he went down to jade Thomas son's office and said, you told me you were gna help. And he said, I can't now i'm sorry, I ve been indeed the last time I exhilarated.

Someone look what they did to me because he exhilarated, someone else in his political opponents attacked them. Um you know human beings we we wave sometimes get their own way because of outside forces. What we think other people are going to say, think jd thomson has been voted out.

He's been wrongfully accused of a crime. It's time for him to to say, you know what, i'm going to do the right thing. All I ask is actually a meeting with him.

I want to meet with you between now in december thirty first. Let me lay everything out for you as I have in this submission. He's now gonna have IT in his hands.

Um he won't answer. My text messages are given a break. He was going through some um serious personal issues, being under entitled running for reelection.

Um this is an easy thing. This is just doing the right thing. Um there is no way that you could look at this evidence. And this is why I think it's a good idea for rather than give A A snaps shot of a case and um have to rely on some process with this conviction integrity units behind closed doors where they run the reinvestigation. I like the public being able to get invested and look at the evidence themselves.

Everyone loves a true crime story um so why not as part of this, let the public help make the case and when they write a letter they'll do IT more forcefully or they call him and say, how could you ignore this? So um I would just encourage everyone to go on twitter and go to free the ohio four and look at the evidence. And if you ever i've gotten so many regions, how can I make a difference? What can I do to make a difference? This is IT. You can write, you can call um you know his his cell phone numbers online because he was running for reelection you know let him know that the public is watching and expect them to do the right thing um you know that the the the best use I feel like I can make of publicly advocating for change is to help bring in the public and and give them a vested interest in trying to help well.

this cases, this is just an amazing example, right? I mean, you said this is a crazy st case.

Think I don't think i've ever had a case ever where the the soul alleged eye witness were cans and then as threatened with jail time is actually put in jail after trying to explore the prosecutors where there's no forensic evidence and IT was the most incomplete investigation I have ever seen what would be the most logical thing to do if this guy says, you know what, there was a beating at this house? What would be the most logical thing for police to do? There was a beating inside this apartment for fifteen to twenty minutes in. This woman was brutal, beaten. What are the police going to do? first?

Can for go to the apartment they .

go to the apartment, they don't spread for illuminate, they don't see if there's use blooming als of a chemical agent that brings out hidden blood um you know they do nothing. They're going to a scan of the apartment of visual scan and see nothing out of order. They don't test that knife. And this is the evidence .

that the woman was beaten.

No evidence. Oh, there was evident that he was beaten, just not in that apartment.

So he was beaten before he was.

Doubt there was. There was an eye witness that saw her that night would like a black eye back, begging for money for drugs. After he allegedly saw her killed oh so it's um he was living a street life and he was there was no suspicion that he was trading sex for money um so that he could feed a drug abbot so um I just don't I don't i've never had a case where the FBI calls the prosecutor and says this guy is a liar and he goes in for reward money and for financial gain and he can be trusted never had the case where a judge says, if you tell the truth, are going to put you in jail you tell the truth it's just as bad as putting these guys me know um you either told a lot to put him in jail or you're now telling a lot to freeze I mean I just don't get IT. I just don't get IT.

Um I don't understand why you know in in almost half of the cases where there has been an exoneration based on a soly witnesses testimony, over half the people recent and the courts are very critical of these recent tags. So in other words, if someone makes up a story and then they come back and say, look, I made that up because my dad was threatening me, because the police threatened me, that somehow viewed very, very critical or as the initial allegation. It's really easy to put someone in jail, real easy, a real difficult to get him out. So do you think this?

Because the system is set up to not reverse convictions, because it's bad for the prosecutors record, is bad for the confidence of the judicial system like .

all of the above. Yeah, I mean, why did come la Harris block, um why did SHE block access to biological evidence from crime scenes? I think the rationality back then was all IT would lead to a flood of request. So fucked in what right .

from innocent people .

Price or or people that, you know, maybe they're guilty and they want to take a shot, who knows but isn't that worth the Price of of you know wrong fully incarcerating people and you know why is um there's so much politics that gets wound up in this I don't you know for the life of me I understand why no IT doesn't see the light of day more.

I tested fied before the house judiciary committee in florida in connection with the pro moto case when their DNA was stolen, right? Their DNA was stolen and they're wrongly ly accused of a crime. I can Lorry promoter and I testified before the house judiciary committee that stealing someone's DNA as a private citizen should be a felly. Alright, IT was a mister minor. And you know, IT was one of my final moments of variation, I think, because I got a sixteen vote and I had a really interesting discussion.

It's record that I should find IT in insanity is some time but there were republicans that asked me, hey, what is IT that we can do to help you more? Because this story is crazy and I said, what there is um something that you can do as part of this bill we would like to make IT not only a felony but give defensive tourneys that have a good faith basis to believe that is an alternative suspects DNA the same right to collect that DNA is law enforcement and if they make a showing to the court that they have a basis to believe that this is an alternative suspect so I had a former um police officer who was remember the judiciary committee say I was a cup and we used to do IT all the time and his exact what was was good for the goose is good for the gander and I think if you could make a good face shown I want to support that. When IT came time for the bill to go to the senate, the guy that was sponsoring the bill um wasn't responding to me.

I said we got overwhelming support not only to um get the bill miner made from a mismatch into a felony, but also to allow defense attorneys, criminal defense attorneys with an adequate showing um to collect the DNA of alternative suspects and I said, so we'd like to add that amendment and he just stop responding to me and finally I got him on the phone and I said, what what's the story? Weren't you responding to this? And he goes, is not happen in judge, just not gonna en.

And I say, why goes? I'm not gonna go into that, but it's not happening. So you know, obviously there was some political push back to IT. He just wasn't gna have that part of this bill. Um so you know I don't know what else you can do to push these issues, you know other than get out there in the public and banging drum about IT and try to get people to pay attention.

And this I think is a rare opportunity because IT gives people um IT allows them to invest in this allows them to see what the evidence is and actually you know write a letter and say, hey, I saw the testimony of the secret service agent of this F, B, I agent under oath and these post conviction proceedings. Why can't? how? What more would you need? You have the power to to exonerate these guys in in this thirty years long nightmare for them. Why not do IT then?

Why not? Well, i'm hoping that this is one of those cases where the people get activated and the way you laid IT out is so crazy. I mean, and with more evidence online that that people have access to, i'm sure there's a bunch of people gonna react that i'm curiously see what the response .

is going to be. Yeah free the ohio for at free the ohio four and trailer and you know like i'm not a big twitter guy or I can say twitter anymore. I'm i'm not a big x guy.

Yeah yeah. So I mean, I guess I should get more into IT. Yeah, we did we through this up hopefully that that that the number starts going soon .

as I get publish, i'm sure we will get a chance to it's can reason to see how .

many boats lock onto IT. Yeah then I would be my IT will be my dream to one day have the ohio for sitting here and have A A toast yeah wow.

what a story. They have a you and you know .

the sad part about IT is is like, I hope that people don't say, well, there are drug dealers at the time and you know again, that's not because you committed one crime doesn't mean .

doing mean your murder also like its circumstances are different for every fucking and human being and um for you to think that there's no way that I would do a crime, especially crime like that like a sure sure if you were in the if you live their life, you know we we all like to think that every boy's life is the same as ours. We only have one life that we can kind of reference.

When we look at other people's lives, we imagine what I would be like to live their life. We don't know. People do desperate things, desperate times, depending upon your environment, depending upon how you grow up, what your influences were, what trauma you experienced, where're, incarcerated, Young age.

No one has any understanding of that other than the people that get trapped in the system. They just don't know. Tough on crime? Yes, I think you'd be tough on crime.

I think you do arrest criminals and evil people to do terrible things that make society awful. Yes, but also you should definitely not arrest innocent people. You should definitely not imprison them and then punish someone who's trying to say, hey, the reason why these people in jail because .

I totally lie yeah well, I don't get the threat of punishing them and you know you are I hope you have the the type of influence in following that. Just listen to that perspective folks right? You know I have in the last few years developed a way deeper understanding of how relative trauma can be from individual individual.

I did not realize trauma that I had suffered until I started to travel those roads. Um and then how we can um impact behavior. So i'm trying to make Better decisions about how I judge things because I don't want to .

say I don't make i'm not judge .

try to more educated judgement rather than judging someone based on you know not having a complete picture. What they hit might have been through and also um not being able to put my souls as best I can behind their eyeballs, earn their brain. It's hard unless you really make an investment.

And I think the easy thing to do is to make a quick judgment and keep moving. Yes, right? And I think that words can be an excuse. The deep dive is to um much of a time investment too difficult and i've had to understand behaviors that I never thought I would ever have to consider. And I can tell you, at least in my experience, and forces you to become a more compassionate human being, a more understanding human being, you get to know yourself Better um because if you're not just constantly trying to figure out more about yourself and others, the fucker we doing you right?

What the fucking are we doing here? Yeah yeah. You're not trying to figure more about yourself.

Mean, if you're the most enlightened personal alive, tell how you did IT. You know, you know you don't have any searching to do anymore. Tells what you did because I know my buddy like that.

I I can't thank you enough um because again IT, it's a rare occurrence these days that um to be unaffected by the outside noise. And I promise you um i'll do Better and making sure that i'm a little bit more plugged in to the help people are getting when they get out, whether they have done in or not. We've had two recent recent tencent.

One guy was um paralyzed um and blinded in prison and um he's in a wheel cherney y can't see. And part of the reason he was paralyzed because of poor medical care that he was getting IT was a difficult decision to make initially, because I said, shit, another reset, tencent, a guy that was found guilty. And then I saw the horrible medical treatment he was getting.

And I said, you know this, this isn't right. You don't just throw out a human being like this and what thread is he in a willow ir blind um but you know, I have do a good job of making sure that people are getting the attention and care they need. IT takes resources.

And you know we're thankful to everybody that continues to reach out and support any of these causes. The pro matter center um you know the middle st innocence project is a great one. The ohio innocence project is are all satellite project. But the freedom clinic at the promotor center, we had some terrific um folks, including the pro matters that have given us the resources we need to make a difference. So I just I have you um you my um you're dead.

you're not you not um appreciate you very much. And um my thing about the outside noise is you should never. Any a effort or time or focus on to something as no net benefit, there is no benefit.

The outside nose doesn't do. And especially if you are an introspective person, if you are a person, things, things, everything you do is awesome. Maybe it's good to see people shit on you.

Maybe it's good to see that some people don't like you. Maybe it's good. Maybe it's good to hear other people's perspectives kind of like you put your ego and check. But if you're a person that tropez tive and I know you are, if you're a person that is hard on yourself when you make mistakes, no one's harder on me than me. I'm very hard on me now.

I know someone that that is hard on themselves as you is sitting across me.

but it's course correct. You know if you if you look in word and you don't like what you're doing or what you've said or who you are.

don't do that again. One of the best things I did in the wake Johnson incident is I turned what comments off on the instagram and turn my account private. Um I think i'll make IT public again after today because I want to generate support for the ohio for um and by turning comments off is a nice thing because you can believe the good stuff or the bad stuff stay forward.

especially for people in the public. The good stuff, you can get what they call audience, you know, you have enough people leaning you in a certain direction or giving you praise for a certain things. Start doing more of that, you know. And this is a maniple, tive tactic that's used online, both for and against people.

A man, look, when I was, uh, on my way over here today, uh, I was walking into the uber and a guide the hotel was, I hope you're going to talk that talk over on the over on the J R, over on the J, R, E. And I said, yeah, I am. And he turns out that he went to high school with rodney read, who's on death row here in texas.

And I got into interesting conversation. The is like, man, his older brother could pop and lock. And yeah, he goes, man, this mother fucker was pop in and lock in all the time, is tell me about and break dancing and he's like, no, for real, you know, shine had a light on this stuff, gives a lot of people out here hope.

And I told them that, you know, I wrote a letter to the legislature here in taxes that's reconsidering that case. Um so it's just really cool, man, to get um to get people behind IT that really care about the staff and the public can really help out you know not to be a lawyer. You are want to be A C psychologist, you know, want to be a therapies.

Pressure does break pipes. So reaching out to jd. Thomas son and make a noise between now and december.

you said, talk about things on this podcast have actually exaggerate people.

Yeah, I thought this one was right. Better off just me. Let me think real carefully about about the, yeah, I know .

Jimmy and I will talk about think he's going to .

bring somebody fuck you certain ly.

can I mean, you definitely can. Hey, listen next time around. And if it's the ohio four, great. Hey.

listen. The guys that have been on here are all driving yeah Bruce brian ah works at the queen's defender office. He has not been without chAllenges, trust me um but he's actually going leave you with this.

Bruce is going to um hope hope that perl let him because we're still working on his full exhortation ation, even though he was great to climate y on on the innocence claim. Bruce is going to nine roby and uganda um to speak to prisoners there and is a climb advocate for the queens defenders. Derek continues to be um a world wind of positive activity.

He's just of amazing. He's getting people out left and right. Robert Robert Johnson we had on is continuing to do amazing things down in our lands um and and all of them are just thrive. They're doing well and not enough attention is given to the happy endings, right? We give to the bad stuff.

But of course, I mean, that's just how people are.

no.

Is you know what the person of afraid of crime? no. So they highlight the the instances where things are bad and things do go bad. And they don't they don't want to look at the disgusting aspects of the legal system. They want people want to live life through rose color glasses and have this perspective that the the bad people go to jail.

But it's not just about most of the headlines to get. The most clicks are about someone having a fucked in a there, somebody dying a lot of trial and news. Well.

people like when other people's lives suck, because IT makes them not think about the sock of their own life. That's why they, like, I want a celebrity, falls like a pd d gets arrested because they see these people live in these lives they could never imagine, won't yartsev rolls, voices and all that shit and then they see them get taken down like.

yeah.

because they were you envious. And it's also like part of our culture to celebrate wealth in the most disgusting and extravagant ways. You know like you mean how many um social media personality have emerged just complete just all about.

Look at all the stuff I have. Look at all the things I have. Look at all the famous people. Hang out with other girls. Look at, look at, look at all the things you can cut and when those people .

get got people love IT folks are ably climate and gets got oh, if that's the basis and I don't agree, who's that fucking guys I was going to shot off. It's taking pictures on yet and shoot a machine gun. No man like I like to peak into his brain one day.

Yes, probably not going on there. It's interesting how people do become famous for that though. It's like showing your stuff makes you famous, showing the life that other people can't really imagine every living.

But think of the hypocras y in the in the inner conflict in turmoil that that exposes. So in other words, we want people to fail that somehow innate in many of us IT makes us feel Better about ourselves. Yet you will have three million followers, or ten or fifteen following someone that and i'm not talking about that guy, whoever who is clearly just selling their looks for their lifestyle, whatever IT is.

So yet we're drawn to IT and we want to watch IT. And then when the person fails, we want to fuck and devour them to the point where there are car cus lying in the street. sure.

Celebrity marriages and divorces are on the big one. Love that when celebrities get divorced. A, A, you miserable too.

Do you love?

No, no, people love IT. I.

I find IT .

fascinating when people keep getting married and keep getting divorced. Got damn, how many times can jail, look, get married for the next guys? Like, hey, I don't know this going to work out?

Yes, IT really been enough. Like this a problem. This is the problem.

Well, he certainly .

a problem as well.

and he nice when SHE made a bunch of dudes. But, you know, whatever, she's obviously a lot of work you want to. Diva, good luck. That requires a lot of work.

I just want, I just want to understand at all. I just want to like me, me, my brother, sometimes what's IT all about.

definitely not all, about caring whether or not jao get divorced again.

You know what I find difficult? I've been playing with this idea, and something that i'm writing right now and couldn't be more impression than than right now, is the this notion of what the truth is. I don't know what like we, we had IT happened to us right here are some of the swing states requiring I, D, or all of them. It's hard to keep up grasped on reality in the truth these days because there's information that is introverted, sly, injected into your veins IT seems like. So I have a hard time knowing what's true anymore.

The news itself out lies. It's not like a conversation like we have or in real time. And I saw a thing that said the swing stay or the the states that required no water idea with the ones that he won SHE want other ones as well.

But when you are have the news saying things, so they have researched that. They do know that it's a lie. This is not like a live conversation, like we're having where I didn't know we're going to talk about that at all nor or did you it's just spontaneously came up. These people are putting narratives out there that are just flat out lies and they're doing IT all the time. I mean, obama did IT during the campaign where he repeated that lie about Donald trump, talking about Whites of promises, saying they're very fine people on both sides.

So just a flat out that was the the unite the right.

What was all about the statue? The statues of civil war people being taken down. And he's saying, you are not talking, literally said, I am not talking about White's premises.

The K, K, K. They should be condemned. He said, i'm talking about .

people that can say that in the same.

oh yeah. So you can see that go never know companion instagram because on that page there is what obama said. And then on the same video there is .

what trump I actually .

and it's disgusting. It's a disgusting lie. And it's a guy who's as, and he's talking about George washington, he said George washington, that slaves so Thomas jefferson, who would take down Thomas jeleva ay IT. So you can see .

IT here that that there were very fine people on both sides of a White, really. And you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

You had people in that group, excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of to them a very, very important status and that we naming of a park from robbery lee to another end. George washington was a slave owner.

Was George washington a slave owner? So, well, George washington now lose this studies. Are we gonna down chess? me.

Are we going to take down? Are we going to take down? That used to judge what, how that tom is.

jeffson. What do you think that time is? Jeffson you like him? Okay, good.

Are we going na take down the statue? Because he, he is a major slave owner. Now we're going to take down history.

You, so you know what? It's fine. You're changing history.

You're changing culture and you had people, and i'm not talking about the neo arches and the White nations because they should be condemned totally, but you had many people in that group other than neonates and White nationalists, okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now that's crazy.

I have never, I have never seen that last part of IT. Yeah, so here, so here is my struggle with the truth unfold. But I never seen that part.

because the news has said that lie over and over and over and over and over again that the news, the mainstream corporate controlled news that wanted this narrative, that Donald trump as a nazi, said that over and over and over again, they repeated IT. They compared him up into the election. Joy read was literally comparing him to stalin, hitler and musli.

And we spent a whole piece describing right wing dictators, that he is going to be a right wing dictator, just like heller, just like stalin. This is the lie of the media. So this is one of the reasons why. So hard to tell the truth. IT should be illegal to do that. IT should be illegal to say that because it's not true and you're changing the perspective of millions of people, especially low information voters, that look at obama like a thing from the past when the time was saying when the world was Normal, a brilliant guy who is the present if this brilliant guy is willing to lie for in front of.

But here's the thing, there's no question. They all lie. Trust, trump included. We talked about that earlier. He lies also that this is like the bribery.

Did he lie about biden? And what would biden did? Did he lie about any of that? No.

he's like planning, i'm sure for sure.

But in the context of a campaign where you're completely distorting the perspective of the person you're running against, not just who they are, but what they've done and what they've said and what they're stand for.

he does the same thing .

though but did he do that with biden?

I believe .

IT how .

to do um I think that there were many times where he would accuse him of having created the problem at the border that I was all his creation. People don't seem to remember that when trump was president, his border policies of separating families at the border was not great.

IT was not great. But the understand obama had those .

exact i'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm just saying you is just what they do with children. When children are when a parents arrested, they separate the families.

This is he was that that has been another obama. But under trump, IT wasn't just separating the children. IT was separating them for indefinite period.

So is there a difference in the way obama handled IT in the separation?

I'm not onna speak to something.

right? So that's a problem, right?

It's a problem if you're causing that is the thing. I think they all lie. I know how I don't I didn't follow IT closely enough to.

I think they all relies too. But there's not a thing like that here in point where he was saying something about biden that was factually incorrect.

Here's the thing that turned me off completely about the election this time. And why I had fucked in a voting for joel stein, a physician that probably is the least quality vite of anyone only is like my form of saying I protested you know como Harris during the debate said that there is not a single um there was some remark there is not a single american soldier deep and and then I saw videos of american soldiers in a war zone watching IT look up in parallel .

out what the fox do you can cranch post about.

where are we right now?

They were in a fuckyou tent dencroft's ted. All of the soldiers, all the the numbers that we have, that saving to find that post. It's on this instagram. In response to that, dan crunch, a who lost his eye and war, he was name.

he was the one that was circulated .

in the clip of may being clip. Yeah, the stand by IT.

yeah.

And you are correct. I mean, and then the crazy thing is you had a conversation with her about that.

Yeah, I was on zoom and SHE couldn't answer a question then. And he can answer a question now. He still refuse to answer a fucking question.

That was the most frustrating thing. I mean, how about saying luck? Obviously, what happened at the border is a crisis.

IT was not handled well. Here is what I plan to do different. It's it's outside of of at least her um capacity or willingness to do something like that.

But I was also the complicated nature of that. The media was in on IT because they were fact checking trump constantly. They didn't fact check her on that, something that should be immediately fact, especially during a debate.

I agree. How did you not know? How do you not know that you're either lying or you don't know that we have troops deployed?

Maybe you're right. Maybe IT is that trump repeats things that he heard that are moronic and nonsensical sometimes, and that takes away from the great he can do.

You definitely do that, right?

Like talking about people leading dogs and cats and the election being rigged. All sort of baseless shit takes away from the fact that you know the things that stick out and it's like get at your own way, bro. He part in jack Johnson. He um he pardoned um one of my clients. I think that he he has done more and cared more about criminal justice reform then certainly than any other president in my lifetime.

no one ever wants to highlight the good things. Yes.

that's why I just did IT. And I I just it's frustrating to me because it's like just don't listen to the last thing everyone told you because you can be great. You can am in the fact that he does what he wants and says what he wants and gets .

elected like this. This is what dan crunch a, responded with no us. Troops, active combat zones.

Question mark, how did A B, C, let coma get away with that during the debate? U. S.

Sailors and marines are fighting off huta attacks in yemen. Over three thousand four hundred troops are engaged in iraq and syria. We have forces in western africa battling terrorists.

Just this year, three us. Soldiers were killed and forty injured in Jordan by an iranian made drone. Nearly one thousand troops are still in deployed in syria, and two thousand five hundred remaining in iraq under Operation inherent resolve.

That's crazy. Yeah crazy thing to say, but is also just shows you how corrupt the relationships between the media and what we get to see. It's corrupt. There's a bunch of people that had decided that they were going to fact check trump continually and not fact check her. And they were doing this because they wanted her to look Better than him, because they wanted her to win.

I am in, listen, the most I have. I have this why I mentioned, you know it's hard to know what the truth is, right? The reason why I posted all the exhibits, the reason why I put the letter up and the reason why I put the contact information up is that when when you have a transcript um and you have um you know actual documentary evidence, it's hard to argue with.

It's not a sound bite. It's not a clip. So I feel like maybe part of what appeals to me about this work is trying to get closer to the truth, a truth that is a bit more provable. You know, I would probably been very happy as a mathematician if I was any good at math, I think at IT. But I I think that um there is is very difficult to understand.

I feel like i'm sitting here and I feel manipulated by the fact that I never and and it's really on me that I didn't go and watch the entirety that comment, right, because I literally don't think i've ever listen to the part. He says, obviously, the neo notes and you know, the people that were there for the wrong reasons need to be condemned. You know when I was watching recently as talking about to the great to vene about this his he pointed after me that comment about um liz chain and then just like go watch the full clip .

and I watch .

the four clip and I was like, right this is so out of fucking in context so then you start to wonder how much is my opinion of him been formed by um my concern about other people lashing out at me yeah mean you should here that should I got when I um when I spoke ill of combo Harris by you know I guess called them the left I know when I was like infuriating to me you know so I don't a politics to me is too it's too much of you know you have to serve so many different interests that you sort of forget who you are, yes and what you stand for yeah so that's what turns me off about IT. And you know I I don't think the battle change that's why I sort of shifted to this is the most I talked about politics and probably five years, but that's why I i've shifted you let me just put my head down and get to work on what I can work on. yes.

Well, I think that's very practical. Um and I think what you said is very important for people to understand that a lot of what people say, they say IT because they don't want people to attack them. They say that because they think that if they say IT will clear them theyll be OK.

If you say you support x, you might not even support x. But if you say support x, you're not going to get attacked in the right. People will leave you alone or agree with you and appreciate you or your praise you.

Thank you for saying there's a lot of that out there. There's a lot of people that don't speak their mind. Do you know many artists that have reached out to me that are like fucking and hips man, like, like artists, like musicians, comedians, that thanked me for endorsement trump, because they can't do IT.

They said they want to, but they don't want to be attack. They can't say they think the countries going in the wrong direction, and they think that this control of social media by the government, which we would have had pretty much fully if IT wasn't for elon buying twitter. This is a dangerous precedent to set, whether it's a right wing government or a left wing government. And that what you see this happening in the U. K, where people are being in prison for tweets and facebook .

post yeah in the in the U. K, is the part that mind.

the whole thing is nuts. And it's a dangerous path that we were on. We were on that path.

Trump has void to have free speech become a very important part of what he's standing for, and that this censoring of information needs to stop, and that we need to stop all government influence in what people have to say. Yeah, look that alone. So that shouldn't .

be as revolutionary as IT is. I know that should be a core tenant .

of what mean it's essentially the first amendment. no.

And I think it's so transferable to what I do in this context because a lot of the the reluctance of of prosecutors not to do the right thing or what their conscience tells them, is the fear of the backlash. yes. How will that hurt my chances in reelection? Of course, what? And so that's what I hate about politics, is you serve so many masters and .

it's a rt turning.

and you got to have, you gotta have lots of steel.

or you have to be a fucking and sociopaths either or, you know, you have to be a blindly sociopaths. Weave your way through this sort .

of social .

and political relationships and to get to the top for what what? What do you mean image one of those person does wind up becoming president that has no, no real thought or no real care about the country, no real ambition other than the the blind serving of their own success.

Well, I think that that's what for people that are so like. It's hard to explain if you didn't live in new york for people that are just like, oh my god, what's the next four years gonna be like and you know what? Like I like is a funeral like get up and do something or four years that you think is gonna make society Better.

You do that whether it's um getting out and knocking on doors and making your for whatever you're passionate about, not just one an election is coming up, but get out and knock on doors, get out and get involved in some organization that you believe in, do something that you think will help lend itself to bearing society in some way. What happens is every four years there's this polzer and people get on one side of the other and they complain in bitching and then they walk IT too often for too long a time. I think that the people that actually make the most change happen are the ones that can sit and talk with people that might have different beliefs than them and don't make them other solo.

I mean, any time i've been an emotional decision and in business personally, it's never gone well for me. So people are going to have different points of viewing you. I was talking to my cousin about IT, and I was trying to help her explain that just because you voted for trump, that doesn't make you Better.

I said, you know, her whole thing was, well, if you have daughters, there's no way you can vote for ham. I said, here's the fundamental flaw, how you're looking at this. There are some people that are pro life, okay, that doesn't make them wrong.

That makes you have a different opinion than them. You have a disagreement. And if the basis of your vote is that your pro choice and their pro life, okay, have a disagreement, you know um I don't I just don't understand how a singular issue like that and I understand that listen.

I understand from a woman's perspective .

i'm a father of two daughters yeah ah I talk to my wife about IT often um you know especially going to florida where the laws on abortion eat the same as they are in new york um and I um I understand IT from a woman's respective completely and I actually disagree with you know overturning rovers s wait but you cannot be that biopic. You just can't because if you're that my oik, you're going to then find yourself in our corner on one issue and life is a little bit more robust than that isn't IT.

it's more nuances. Ah yeah.

that was the Better world. IT is more numerous.

Will listen, my brother, I love you to death.

I appreciate what you do.

I think the world's a Better place because what you do, I really do. And I think you've changed a lot of people's perspective on the legal system, and i'm glad that we didn't let what happen with sheldon change that. And I think there's just so much more great work to be done.

Oh by my continued profound gratitude um to continuing to let me tell these stories. I promise the next time I bring a guest on, they will be well, they will be they will be yeah the guests will be voted a lot more thoroughly and you know there is no way .

you could have known.

no way I couldn't known and you know is interesting because I was for forty eight hours I felt what I was like I felt what I was like to be a headline um and then I was like this sucks for the wrong reasons is like I know you were in .

a dark place but i'm glad you got out .

of that yeah and not about this time yeah yeah and I just i'm really, really, really. Appreciative of of this you know that can't shake the foundation of this forum. I think we're going to just keep on making great change up and and hopefully we will free the ohio for and keep on moving .

yeah and I hope we do to a park cast one day with them.