#2213 - Diane K. Boyd
03:03:46 Share

The joe rogan experience.

What's up? I want you.

I am great. Long flight in for montana. I'm great.

Thank you. Well, it's very nice to meet you, and I really enjoyed you once. Even als podcasts as well.

OK, do you get to watch?

IT, yes. Steve. Well, Steve made the introduction. Yes, he told me I half to have you on because he knows how fascinated I am by wolves. So i'm really excited.

Talk to you. thanks. So i'm excited too because they thought, well, you get, where are both hers? We both dog lovers. You have got an interest in wolves so good.

How did you start getting interested in walls and start working with wolves?

Well, I grew up in minnesota and probably tell from the fargo accent. I grew up in minnesota. And back in the sixties and seventies, when I was thinking about a queer, minnesota was the only state in the law, forty eight, that had wolves, with the exception of a few, like twenty five million.

I A couple here, there in was concern. And so I was interested from the beginning with that. And then when I went to the university, minnesota, dave me, who was like the god, god of the wolf world, his office was on my campus. So I just stop buying, kept bugging m and I, I wouldn't go away like a good parasite. Persist, persist, persist.

Why wolves? Why were wolves so interesting to you?

You know, i'm just, i'm kind of a wildlife person. They are the ultimate in a really wild and smart animal, their carner, their social like people. And I think I was denied having a dog most of my life, going up to about fifteen. So I had this passion for cans in general. I love dogs.

I do. I love them and I love walls. Um i'm so fascinated by them and i'm so um interested in the whole history of them in this country, how they were sort of era diced from most of the western states and the reintroduction of them.

So you were there for all of IT, right? So when you first started they had pretty much been wiped tics. But you said in minnesotan .

you said ida s yo, which is an island in here is a technical part. Michigan over on the frozen lakes, appear ice in the late, like one thousand, four hundred thousand and fifteen early. And they stayed, and they, they got seated there, and they had endless amount of most to colony.

So they kind of a wolf paradise with that. And this is to like that there. Yes, in the populations of of wolves and moose go up and down because you know nature nothing is here. Well, I was wanted to be here, but it's always doing this right and the other are doing there. And then interestingly, when dribe they migrate on their own power um there was very little immigration.

There was a couple of wolves document and shown up here and there but apparently genetically there was no influxes of new genes so the wolves that came in when didn't breed and eventually they became so in read they started having physical anomalies and eventually, just a few few years ago, four, five years ago, they got down to just a father daughter team, and only two wolves left, and IT was over. And so they wouldn't breed because they have, they don't breed close relatives generally. So they just did a reintroduction, bio oil too that's been relatively no just a handful of years. So they had to reboot the population if they wanted to keep going or wait for the lake defrees again which may mean that happened in our lifetime, you know.

Um so when they reintroduce them, um this is one of the sticky points about the reintroducing yellow one. A lot of people that were against IT, we're saying that they reintroduced a different size wolf, that they reintroduced wolves from canada yeah is that true? So no.

no, no. In my book i've got a chapter called slaying the super wolf. And so people call these wolfs super wolves because they say that there, they're not made of their canadian super wolves in the way, one hundred and seventy pounds and goes on and on and on.

But I documented a wolf that I caught in the glacier park area with eighty five, fifty one, and we just had vhf colors. We don't have satellite colors in those days. And SHE hung around for all.

And then he just disappeared in seven months later, the british columbia environmental ministry game board and called me, because we ve got one year wolf skilled. Do you want to color? Yes, please.

Where is the post coup? I said, oh, where is that? Well, IT turns out that is five hundred and forty miles north of glacier park in seven months.

So we didn't know if the guy farmer shot IT in your life. They had a shot IT. We would never known what to happened to her. But if SHE would have got on south instead of north, SHE didn't about a hundred miles south of elista park. So clearly, they have the ability to disperse so far.

The other interesting thing about that wolf is when he went north they got the reintroduced wolves from two areas um from hinton in Alberta and fort sae Jones and british lumbar and SHE dispersed past the hinton population and ended up almost that were the the first thing john wolves were so this little wolf eighty pop wolf showed us that it's one continuous population from yellowstone, almost of the u kn. It's connected because it's a walk about for a wolf. It's not a big deal.

We just didn't back to back then. We didn't have the tools to document kind of those long dispersal. But I just read this week that a wolf that showed up in colorado that was shot this year, they just did the DNA on IT, apparently pretty recently.

And I was from the midwest. Think about that to colleran. O wow.

yeah. So midd west like was constant yeah minnesota .

was constant mission IT just said the great lakes region IT didn't identify because they're all the same but he was not is not a western wolf IT was not from my alma or montana. Really interesting.

Is there any speculation is to why SHE went so far north? So SHE was originally from, uh, northern population, the wolf that i'm talking about.

And yeah, he was born in a SHE park. We caught her first shes a pop. So we know where SHE was born, you know the down and then had about a year and a half of age, almost two SHE dispersed, ed, that far.

And SHE didn't have to go that far. I mean, if you wanted to find other wolves in, start a pack or join a pack, you could have gone any direction, fifty, one hundred miles, and found other wolves. You know what? If you tell me why wolves do what they do? And bio lottery ticket? I mean, I don't know how these things were.

I just don't know. So is that common that they would travel that far? It's becoming .

more and more common. So now that we have satellite collars, we've been using those for years. We can track them without having to stay in touch physically with them.

In the old days, we just had vhf collars and you had to physically be there within range, like from an airplane or check come. But now that we got satellite college, I mean, my god, she've got wolves going from washington to montana. One of the wolves from my ommen went all the way down to arizon to just north the grand canyon with the sale. C, I was tracked. And then IT turned around and start home when I got shot in your toe.

So when they're doing this and you track them, how long do those colors batteries last?

Well, sadly, for the V, H, F colors, the wolves generally die before the colors too, because wolves don't live very long. And an average V, H, F color last about four years. An average satellite collar one to two years. And I don't understand why the technology is not Better to prolong with some kind of a new battery, because when you put all the trauma going through the wolf of the helicopter catching, and whatever you think they could get of a super battery that would last a long time.

proba too heavy.

heavy. And, you know, walls are, on average, one hundred pounds, and the batteries are pretty big. But I went free on mosque to develop a super radio color battery.

Well, they're pretty close to developing some pretty spectacular battery technology.

I just was reading .

about that they're trying to implemented automobile. They're na be able to do I think I believe sam song at the four front of that yeah because obviously they make batteries for their phones and tron ics and things along this line yeah .

isn't not a hydrogen battle or something crazy. I'm just reading and start to remember.

Um so so they are wearing this heavy color and they they're good for about two years and a wolf in the wild lives how long .

that I always when I A have a talk, I have how long you think the average wolf f lives. So if you guests from the time they're visible from the dn emergence, like you start to see them for a week. And if you die before that until they die, do you wants to take up a cause?

I would be cheating because I listen to the, I think was four point three.

four, three years. Yeah, doctor, and i've got there.

I was shocked. I thought there was live older because, you know, an elk like a bullet. Elk like you shoot a mature one there seven, eight years old. Some to, yeah, I want that was eleven.

You did. I bet they were getting smaller by that.

yes. yeah. In the teeth were worn down or nothing. There are not.

They're not evolved to live that lot. They just started. They usually die soon because they they burn up so much energy and years of meeting and rating that they get one down and they die. The wolves, I mean, in a zoo or captive situation, they can live to be .

fifteen like a dog yeah.

like a yeah. But that's extraordinary. I think the longest I had a wolf a while, wolf that I knew her age, because I cotters a pop in me. We, I recaptured, and we tagged twelve years. That's extremely long for an old.

old, twelve years in the wild.

There a few stone that all we had want to mind that disperse to idaho, and he can interesting in accord in the nineteen ninety. And he dispersed about a year later on his own, want to eat hole in the middle of the frink church river of not return n Millers. There were no other wolves at that time.

You need just hung around. We d see once. And while I M self, he was a big male, and I got to use one hundred and eleven pounds. But this animal had to survive by killing animals a lot. You think about raz trying to pull down and oak with your teeth .

is ah because the old males don't get accepted into a new pack.

He went to where the origin, and he walls, interestingly, but he had a success story because he just waited IT out. And when they reintroduce those wolves into idaho and ninety five and ninety six, a little black female of pop side recruit just hit to the road at as faster sheet going SHE bumps into this wolf, and they set up a territory and Kelly creek, and they became a breeding made there for years and years till he died of old age.

wow. So he was just kind of chill on his own for years. Yeah, how many years?

4？ wow.

And that four years i've seen any other world .

without being having helped kill for your food item either. That's what amazes me because he could have got on to montana and found other wolves.

but he didn't. Was there any understanding of what he was? Basically good because like they're usually hunting packs. So it's probit very difficult for him to take down anything larger than a phone or a deer. So what was he?

What was he eating? I would guess use killing l cabs, uh, dear phones, some deer. And if you got lucky, if we had a really deep snow winter, it's the advantage of the wolves because they got big snowman feet and help you know, punched ed through where they get low show with.

But he did well, whatever he did, we don't know. We didn't we didn't follow that long. We didn't pick up scats. It's just speculation. But that mean they can kill a big milk, but it's they ripen, kill every time and they have to take a me like that bright.

They receiving dismember red to like like broken legs and broken jars and get kicked.

I saw a video of war from yellow stone last year. I'd been kicked in the jar by an elk and had a broken job that was hanging. And a month later, a month, months and half, IT was healed enough, and IT was in the process of killing another elk.

And and wolves came along and killed the wolf. Other wolves words in his own pack, obviously. But he survived that that, wow.

Their time is john healed up and he got enough food while his job was healing. Yeah, it's incredible.

I imagine, was scavenging around, picking up on kills and whatever .

I was chewing, I don't know, because got a fork you like, or a knife where you cut up the pieces, he's GTA bite pieces off with a broken jar.

It's my boying me. You know, people think of wolves can just kill IT. Well, they know what if they want, they have a hard life.

Yeah, they just, they live in packs because they're not very efficient killers. You know, mullions bears, there are a more efficient predator, specially online. yeah. And they got all the class to hang on. But wolf can only go with its teeth, and so IT generally takes numerous wolves to successfully hunting animals, especially big, like I moves or von.

what a friends said to maze out. I want to run this by you to find out this is true. He said that mount lines are killing more elk because of wolves, because what happens is the mountain line will kill the elk, but then the wolf will scare the mountain line off and steal IT from him. And so the mount line then goes in fines, meal deer finds in another deer. And so the mount lines are killing more animals because in the areas where mount lines and walls cohabitate, the the wolf ves are really good at chasing mount lines off of kills.

That does happen. And I I saw some in glory park too. But to that end, i'll say there are three times more mlt lines than there are wolves in northwestern montana, really three, two and half the three span documented. So wow, if you think about that, I have never know yeah and my lines are an average a little bit bigger than .

know if you saw one in on, yeah, I saw one in a couple years back. And IT was a big one present, seventy thousand. one. Oh my god. IT was enormous.

Did they? Did they treat IT with homes?

No, no. We were driving and we were about twenty five, thirty yards from IT, and my friend stopped the truck and he said, look at the size of that cat was under a tree. And he was just as dawn, or just as dusk was happening.

So you can see his eyes glowing. And so i'm in the front sea of the car looking at him through, no, and just getting a good look at IT. IT was incredible. There are .

beautiful animals. And I always think when i'm out in the words I got a little cabin way of northwest tana, I wonder how many times multi lines have watched me.

I worry about modelinia.

Yeah, there's healthy. I don't worry about wolfs.

Yeah, you should worry about my lives. I hear out there by yourself too, right? yeah. Do you have a like modern amenity up there? And do you have satellite bin .

is fifty five miles off the grid and it's dry. I don't know any water. I don't name electricity.

No electricity the way after.

Great but um I I built IT. I took down and all his dark homestead and move the logs up to where IT sits .

come up to yourself.

Well, no, no, I had help with a lot of friends, held me over the years. He took me seven years from the time I got the logs and had friends help me take IT down till IT was livable long time. Because I when I had money, I did have time.

And when I had time, I didn't have money right for building. So but eventually got had done a lot of friends, very different help. But I part concrete, nice cut logs. And you know, I did everything. But when I built the place, where was I going to this?

Sorry, you were just talking about what it's like out there. No electricity?

no. So for years i've lived without an a hole water from a spring. In the winter, I melt the snow because we get a lot of snow.

But three, three summer ago now, I was there alone, and I fell down the heart, the stairs, all the wooden stairs, and I broke the top of my foot, and I said, you know, this decision can be very fun for a while, because I got to close up the cabin and have a propane dge. And then when I got to undo the propane, empty the fridge, and I got a lot shot, because that can be back. I gotta broken foot, some hobble and around, and I said, okay, now i'm going to get starling.

But I was my motivator, because if I had a phone, I could be called some money for help. But I, I didn't, and I couldn't. So after that, then I got on the starling.

They were still in the beta, developed anything. Anyway, I got on. So I have starling available to me at my cabin.

But only when I choose to turn them on is not like if you were the email me or call mp there you wouldn't get me and when I choose to turn and now I get the message. So it's kind of the best of both words. But I don't live there full time anywhere. I live in town .

that is actually the best of wealth words yeah, choose to turn on. Yeah, I brought a portable one I put to you to with me, and it's like smaller than .

the scar box the new one got with IT.

So light I couldn't believe this was IT. yeah. And IT works amazing just pointed at the sky and also .

on you're on youtube for Better, worse.

worse even reword but now allows me to call home and sure talk people there. There's good to IT but IT sounds like living up there must have been amazing. But the water thing sounds like a real issue. There was no way you could build a well.

I drill well. Yeah, I didn't hit water.

only did one.

I did two, and I didn't hit water twice. But I mind a creek. I said on a bluff above a creep about nine, two hundred feet straight below me too, and I drew my wells one hundred and forty feet.

But it's a really interesting limestone shared in the water. I don't know how that works. I having had a guy watch IT for me because i'm a scientist. But what? They help my work so they watched the spot you.

which you talking about with the sticks and divine rose.

And like I said, i'm a scientist, but if you might help, boy, not. But I didn't hit water.

IT doesn't seem like you could be real.

I don't know, I don't know either.

but but people been doing that for a long time, and that seems like a massive waste time. If j, we see if we can fight a video of someone trying to find water with divine rose. If you haven't seen IT, they use two sticks.

right? Two sticks, sometimes metal, but usually would like a whale or something.

And they claim, as they walking around, that the .

sticks move .

as they cross. When you get to an area where this, your scientists tell me how that's possible, how could I be part? Is anybody ever analyzed like what factors could be at play?

Tell you, I don't know and i'm kind of a skeptic on that stuff, but I I had somebody do IT and we didn't get water.

so it's okay. So here is this guys walking around this IT looks like he's .

got those are probably metal like cotangent. Are that lips right there?

Coat angers. How's that possible?

I don't know.

Then I just spins in his hands. I like they crossed .

and and then course. But things are going to go sink and there. Well, I might be two feet and might be two hundred feet, I don't know.

So he's walking. He's not move in his hands, but they did. How does really look like they move on their own?

I you know, there may be people in the world who have some kind of a gift. They have. Their electrical lights are different. I don't know how that works. I have been told that I can be a woman of science and superstition .

at the same time.

Yeah, but i'm not usually science wins, why?

But if you live in the woods a long time, you get a little bit of superstition, a little bit of intuition, a little bit of, you feel the woods a little bit differently than you could .

measure on a scale I can think of twice. Only in my life, before I built my little cabin, I lived up this very, even more remote outpost called most city, loosely, most city. Because IT was not a city at all.

I was all homeside with a lot of empty gains. Twice up there. I got this feeling that there was something dangerous outside twice. And I have something just said, you don't go outside. I'm not afraid of anything.

I mean, I spent my life dealing with wolves and grocery baron and angry humans, but I listen to those feelings because I don't know any different. Why not? Why not listen to IT? Like I think we have some primarily part of our brains. I don't know if you ve ever had that happened to you and .

have been out walking or hunting. I have not OK. No, i've never had a moment where else terrified .

like something here. yeah. And I have no idea what I was, but i've never heard that feeling around wildlife. I tend to think IT was human. I don't know .

if we if .

we can yeah I don't know. We can smell and not registered in our four brain what we detect maybe it's really permanent. I don't know. I'm just saying .

I had IT happened. You're not around any people and then all the sudden you feel a person I bet that kind of like any person that you run into into the woods is scary. It's weird. Like if you I always said that everything in the woods is scarier. Like if you saw a naked baby in the woods, you be like, what's that baby doing?

Baby.

just stand and looking what the fuck. There's something weird about the woods in general. And if you if you were walking through a mall and a man was walking your way, it's just another person like, hello, hi, you know you're at the park, see you guy Normal but if you're in the middle of nowhere in the woods and you see another person, there's this moment where you like, what's the guy up to? Who is he what you doing is he dangers?

Yeah, I think that because we're all raised in an urban environment more or less nowaday, and so having lots of people around is Normal, but to have one person in a pretty remote, we don't experience that very often.

And but there's also no one is going to help you there, give you at the mall. It's very difficult for someone get away with attacking you, right? If you're alone in the woods. There is this weird, if you some crazy serial killer ys out there like you you your backpack and you like a like now I met the mercy of this person of the crazy.

I've chapter, my book, early in the book, where I describe an event that i'm basically been a real private person on my life until this book came out. And once I roof the spoke, I had bring up stories that a very personal to me, and I had any vent one night that was terrifying. Probably the most terrifying thing is ever happened in my life, and and involved humans. So yeah, I totally get that people in places where they shouldn't be, do you wants to read IT? Do you want me to spoil IT you want me to do .

the spoiler thing .

we're talking about IT, okay, i'll just give you the elevator beats part of IT. So I was in my cabinet night and the dog started growling. I I had very big dogs.

I always have dogs, and I looked out my window and I was winter and IT was cold, and I could see a couple of guys out there lurking around a night, was in the middle, nowhere, and then IT kind of digressed from there. So I am I for the only first and only time in my life, I pulled a gun on these guys, really. Yeah, I was in danger.

But there.

well, they came to pay me a visit. They knew who you were. They called me by name, which was really freaky. So you think somebody in the woods walk and on scary wait till you see something who you don't know, who is call you by your first name.

that's freezing and what they want.

I didn't find out because I pull the gun on. I drove off. And that was terrifying to me at the IT was not terrifying at the moment because I was absolutely focus, like predator focus, calm. But after they laughed, I started to shake, yeah, yeah, kind of, after the general search happen.

were they mention, were they yes, yeah, to me. But with the way they were communicating with you.

they were drunk. Yeah, IT wasn't good.

And so how do they know who you were? Do you know.

that was a long story, but I was working up there. I was kind of a novelty. A Young, blind woman was only about twenty five, living on study wolves in the time. There are other people coming going studying wolves. But at that winter I was alone and I ve been working um so long story I was working behind the custom station right on the canadian border and they were hauling logs down and out of canada, bringing in the custom station.

They would have to transfer the logs to american truck and then the canadian toxics back and I temporarily took a job as a not bumper at the log decked landing, which means my job with change term off the branches, term the the length of the log to exactly fit the log. But anyway, so I was around. So these loggers knew who I was.

And I was, you know, I was called jill enough, but I was two of those guys. Yeah and I don't I never told the story till I wrote this book and I just thought it's a part of me that's very personal. It's a part of me that I learned from to never happen again.

Um and I had one old logger, old bob. He saw me on the road the next day. I was pretty sure any stop we chat often and he had seen a wolf.

We take a picture. But so anyway we chat and he is so here gets some visitors. Last night I looked that up because he's up in his log truck. I said, yeah, he says, you don't have to worry, that won't happen again. He's coming watching out for me because.

yeah.

because we had kind of be friendly each other because he spotted this wall and you had taken pictures of IT anyway.

yeah. So how do you find out visitors.

the logged network to C, B radios? I don't know. I didn't tell anybody, but he knew right .

away they have humans.

You have to be cared of totally. Yeah, yeah. So anyway.

you asked that there is no serial killer mountain lies, right? They just have a purpose in nature. Ah.

they just kill. They kill. The .

people .

are weird. You sign about their being weird. I love that. Yeah.

the specimen men in the woods, or scary. So when you were living out there, how many years did you live out there by yourself?

Well, often on. So when I arrived there I joined the team of Young researchers. We're study wolves in greasy barrand.

We helped each other with their work so we started all that. Um and then when we ran out of funding, then I was up there alone for about three years. But other than that.

there were people .

coming for I had to dogs, I wasn't totally alone and people were coming and going seasonally at summer help and add winter help there is there wasn't people there on the shoulder .

season so get lonely.

You know, it's interesting because I didn't really, I back when I Younger, uh, I was a bit of a missing throat and I liked being alone. And when I was alone, being alone is different than being lonely IT is this now is an older person. Yeah, I feel different about people.

I more engaged with people. I enjoy people. So you, I get lonely now, but I didn't back then. I mean, how could you be lonely or living in the majestic mountains and wilderness of glorious national park, and everything is new and their tracks to find and on and on and on?

what? It's all amazing stuff. But I I would be lonely. I like to be around people. Well.

that's why you're really good at what you do because you're a social person. You like to engage in conversation. But I didn't used to be that way. You went to wanted to interviewed me thirty years old. It's put IT that way, really.

I think we would worked out and even, all right, but I would worked out.

I am more .

conversational now. I mean, it's just I would have been fascinated by who you were them because i'd be fascinated by a person who doesn't want to talk to people. Like if I could just peel back the layers, the onions to find out what that's like like because I would imagine there's a very different relationship with nature when it's just you and nature alone by yourself for prolonged periods of time. It's very different than taking a joint, taking a weekend excursion, hiking, even campaign a week is a big difference between that and living there for years.

yes. And it's sort of like it's like when I go, I go to my cabin for a visit. Now i'm no longer live their full time, but I live there a couple of months a year, maybe three.

Maybe you see two, when I go up, IT takes me like three to four days to do a compress and get back into the mode of, oh, I can't, I can't call oh, I can't go on the internet. Do I want to hook up the starling? No, go out and just sit outside and have a cup of tea and listen to the crick and then think about what you're going to do for they go on height.

But IT takes me a few days now to get to that. For me, mine IT doesn't is not instant anymore. So i've changed to I am.

And then once you get to that frame, mine and you can, just like today, we're gonna go to hike, is bring the dogs, just go walk around, go yourself, whatever. wow. yeah. And were you living off the land where you catching fish for food and hunting for food? Or how are you getting supply?

I did that, but I bought stuff in town, and I would buy a lot in november while I could still drive in, because sometimes in the winter you could not drive in anymore. So I stock up and by, you know, three, four hundred pilots of dog food and book supplies of flower and oats. And I can. Back then, I actually did some canning. I don't I don't have time, I don't care about I can buy cm peaches or whatever, but I and I never grew a food garden because of .

the bears. Yeah.

see, I didn't want to attract Chris, right? So I didn't grow food. Expect .

they're always .

there, but you don't see them very often. So it's sort of like all the wild things that are up there are pretty well. And there weren't a lot of people up there and other bodies discovered, monta, and there's people everywhere.

right? It's so interesting because our senses are so dull compared to theirs. We move so slow and we're so loud and we're so funny that they see us a mile away.

They smell us a mile away. They know exactly we are in most of time. They just avoid .

us totally, though. I know, I mean, i've just come back from bird honey. I just was thirty one days on the road, and I just got home three days ago now here and I was out burn uniting with friends and I said, I told the mr.

So in hunt with my pointless, I get a griffe and the wire, I said, don't talk, don't call the dog name, don't hour about, just just watch and enjoy and smell and feel that goes on and trust the dogs if you see them getting birdy get ready because so many times you hunt with people in their hack and their dog, they're call in their holly and they're talk and you about something going on over here. And did you watch the the viking game? And nobody watches the viking game anyway.

Did you watch this? But like, we are out there seeking a smart bird that has ears. Watch the ducks. So I I feel that way when i'm out living in the wild too with our hiking. I'm not going to see l or bears or even fox if you're emberg away, it's party like being on yeah.

that is part of the problem with people. We do like to talk just to just be reassured .

exactly yeah yeah you know and it's fun interact. I mean, but even when I go to elliston, I go to elliston at least couple times here to watch wolves. I love the wolf watches. So, so enthusiastic. But some things go on and you can't take a video because .

everybody y's.

even if the walls are halling, you have to go.

I went to yellow zone of years back with my family, and I, I felt like I was very weird. I felt like i'm enjoying that. My daughters are really Young at the time. I'm enjoying that they're seeing bears and they're seeing well, we didn't see bears.

We didn't see they had there is this place in montana that has a grazy bear preserve its like a place where they take care so they would like freedom frozen watermelons which is crazy to watch a bear chew through a frozen watermelon like it's a grape wow, they just go right through as a frozen watermelon wow and they just come like it's nothing yeah but we did see a lot of elk in A A bunch of byand. And the elk was strange because i'm sure you know this. But for the people at home, elk, uh, understand that wolfs don't come to these community centers.

These areas were there's vending machines and buildings. So the alcoa all over the place out there. Yeah so I don't know, I don't know. I put IT on the instagram.

I think I I feel with the a cow elk that was like forty feet for me just lying there, and he wasn't worried about me at all. And I was trying to tell my kids was like, this never happens. This is weird. It's weird that they've become so habitable, zed, to being around cars and people. They just know the people is, say, when you're around these people, so they just hanging .

out there as probably mmh gardener area that happens all the time up there.

Well, that happens in colorado to like in every Green know you see them there's like these huge herds of elk that walk down the middle of street in every Green because they know there's no mountain lines in the middle street. And so they just like in the rut, they're walking down the street, there's like thirty, forty ill and they stop traffic and they are sit on people's loans. And its wild sounds like bams.

The same things happened to the wolves in your stone because they were taken from canada where they don't see people and they had never exposures of livestock. They're very wild at first, and then they can't get away from humans. So after a wall, they just start disregarding people.

And like, if they have to cross the road, there's a wolf jam and everybody's crowding with their cars and they're trying to bring their pups across the road to a Better spot and they can even get through because of everybody. So they they get kind of losy fair about IT and they get used, people conditioner habituated, and that's passed onto the next generation next. And then when they leave the park and they go outside the park and they walked down some, some open public landsman t where there's a hunter with a rifle, they don't think anything prety easy.

Habitual zone is unfortunate because it's like you just want to see them in the wild. You don't want to see them in an intersection.

I know. And yeah, it's tough and unfortunate thing is um a couple of years ago, there were twenty five yellow stone wall killed just outside of the park because they're used to people and they went around anyway. That's like out of one hundred.

So it's about a court to the population. And there were a couple of particular individual wolves that were very well recognized and loved by the wolf masses and photographed, and they got killer. Is this just one viral and this huge hatred for these people who shot these wolves because they were so special? And I make the point on, I give talks and stuff.

I said, you know, if you really feel that strongly, you should really be concerned because every year there's about three hundred walls shot that way in montana. But you don't know them. They're not famous.

They have just as important of lives. They live, die, eat, breeze, get injured, heal up the same as this movie star walls. And now, so, and you should feel that way about all. Yes, in my mind, my mind.

well, that was the case with seal, the lion member, right? yeah.

The dentist.

dinner dentist killed them. Yeah, they named him yeah. And so they need. I remember after season guard killed, another lion got killed and they thought I was jericho who was ceasless brother.

And there was a story like, oh my god, they killed jerod ceasless brother. And then they realized that jerky was not dead. So that h it's fine, jero still okay, but that lion is just a lion.

You didn't name him, but that's still another lion. But because it's not this named lion's brother also as a name, no one cared. Exactly that's so bizarre. IT is bizarre.

I thank you for understand that I forgot about say so. But like when we were first monitoring the wolves in glaser, there was just a hand fall and we would catch them and we would give them names because it's easier. Like fillips was wolf, eighty five, fifty, and mohair was alf, eighty nine, sixty three had both names and numbers.

And so when we did our scientific papers and reports, we used the number because we were told by the officials that we don't want you to name the animals. Because what happens when filers kills a cow? That happens, then you can manage fearless.

So we we went along with IT, but we use the names, and we did the scientific stuff with numbers. But then when you're going to the park, people would want to know what's going on. Need to talk about these different wolf numbers, eighty six, thirty four. They say, war.

Who is that? Oh, that's aspen. Oh yeah. They would novine the name. So whatever works.

they also, they become like a pet, even more like a majestic White pet, like it's a different thing. It's a pet that's this iconic north american you apex predator.

yes. And I know the wolves in ostrom, they don't have names, they have numbers, but they're so identifiable by nine or seven or whatever that that becomes like a name, right? Even though it's still a number.

But if you shoot nine or seven is not as rude as if you shoot jake. Oh, you shouldn't shoot her anymore, which is just a weird answer pomo phy zia thing, right?

You know, it's been interesting to me because I, for my career, i've done everything, my first year, my first job, I worked up in northern minnesota in a little tiny three hundred person farming community. And I was hired U. S.

Fish only service to go in and help prevent light stuck depredation. And when wolves killed, cattle or sheep go in in remove, which meant trapped in the halloween en in their uthia ed. And when they weren't depredations to go out in and research trap and put colors on the other wolves and IT was, I mean, this was big, big stuff for a girl from any apples steria.

And pretty nice eight to go up and save the folks of north home from the world. Yeah, oh my god. IT was such an important summer for me to learn professionally and personally. And I thought about that, but I learned a lot, and I was interesting work, but I realized, yeah, wolves can cause conflicts for people. And IT was a new .

concept for me. So when they captured the walls and they remove them, why did they? Why they relocate? Well.

they would be me because I was the one catching in.

Well, obviously, someone is telling you what to do, right?

right? So I had to bring them to the, the, the main office in grand rapids, minnesota. They were using ized. So prior to that, in one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight, you couldn't uthal ized wolves. They change the status from endanger to threatens. And so when they were threatened, then under endangered species, that you could actually use the nice them and they didn't translate them.

This is a really good question, because they found over the years with studies in minnesota and eventually in montana, to that when you translate or move a wolf who's causing a problem that was very, very rarely survive to reproduce, because IT gets killed by the wolves, IT comes back to departed again. IT moves under another farmer, rancher, IT does IT again. They, they don't generally survive.

And so IT was determined that IT makes officials feel good to move them, and that is a good facade for the publi C2Believe in. But sometimes that results in a pretty prolonged in remain existence for a few months or year till they die anyway. So yeah, IT, is that .

because their habitually, zed, to start praying on cattle.

it's tough. Once they learn to take catering, it's tough to break that pattern. And let's put in that way so easy.

Well, yeah, I mean.

if I was me out there walk and around and I had a choice between a dear, this going to kick me right in the tape, they're taking the cow, i'd picked the slow, dumb groceries every of course.

of course. And if they know the groceries all end up exactly no.

So it's it's a difficult chAllenge. And wolves are continuing to expand everywhere in the west, the middle st. europe. And so there's more and more chAllenges than a lot of the the early excitement about wolves is changed into A A bitter battle.

No, it's it's a really interesting complex battle because there's a lot of hunters that do not like the reintroduction of walls. Yes, because and y'll say that the the elk populations are and they they are down dramatically in montana because the reintroduction, which is the nineteen ninety six.

ninety five, ninety six and then ninety six, ninety seven those winters.

but the reality is it's not natural to not have those predators there. And you're gonna get an overpopulation of elk. And that's gonna ad distribution and disease.

yes. And so kind of the the the die was cast when those walls were removed. And basically by the one thousand nine thirties, really weren't viable populations in the west anymore.

There are wolves here. They are in a packing here there. But they weren't thousands, and and they went into inside the national park.

So they have a picture in many books of rangers with cute little wolf pup sitter, like seven, eight weeks old. And they took the pictures, this was in one thousand and twenty six, and then they killed them all. So they even removed all the predators with the national parks.

So, people, historic memory, you know, we are really short memories, historic memory of safer example, the northern range, northern heard a range of elk out of gardener. IT was about twenty thousand before the walls were introduced. Wae over caring capacity, elk starving. The browse lines is high, opposite to reach the everything they can eat. They hear paying people, look, people being paid to come in and kill dear nail.

And they started the late honey seasons out a gardener, which I went in because my boyfriend had a time, had a tague, and they just have a shooting line in february, and kill, kill all these out because they aren't going to make IT anyway. So you shoot starving car in february because he wasn't predators. So then when the wolves came back, two things happened.

Number one, IT was a new, new predator. But number two, in the winter of ninety six, ninety seven, we had some of the deepest snows ever recorded in in the mountains ever. And so many of the heart died from snowfall.

And i've have honors dema. Yeah, the population milk from one from twenty thousand and tenth was in two years to damp those wolves and say, do you think three, five wolves killed ten thousand? Come on, let's just do the math a minute.

That is the problem with people that don't have a new once perspective on what's happening because they have a vested interest in IT being a problem that the walls are keeping them from being able to be successful on an l count.

right? And i'm a hunter. I get IT.

but the dios are huge. Like the place that I was just telling you about the podcast I was in a new time. Yeah they lost eighty percent of their meal, dear population a .

year ago from yeah and and .

so bad winter, yeah yeah bad winter die off or a big thing. It's a big thing.

I would say the best minorets is a biologist. That winter die off is the limiting factor for ungulate hurt. It's not lions and involves in humans and cars every so often in every twenty years or whatever, you get a massive winter die off.

And IT takes a quite a while for those populations to build back. Predators can keep that at lower rate. They can not affect IT. You know, I have to think perhaps to the people say about wolves killing all the dear.

Now I think if you look to statistics, montane and romance, which you both have had of a lot of wolves for a couple decades, they're giving away our l permits. I've used as reading. They proposed unlimited l permits and welcoming in montanas get basically most of its management morale and ever.

And I just say there's more going on than wolves. And to point your finger wolves all the time, you need to look at habitats. You need to look at access issues. You know, there's lot of places where hunches who want to go shoot these ilk, but there are learn private branches and you can get on.

including land lock, public land where there is public land where you're allowed to hunt there, but you can get there, right? You'd have to fly in a helicopter. And a lot of places .

that's illegal.

right? And so there's all this talk of for people who don't know there's what one one of things that happens is a thing called corner crossing. yeah. So there might be a piece of public land that you're allowed to hike into. And then there's a small area.

There could be a very small area, just a few yard even of private land that you are going to half cross in order to get into the next piece of public of them. But people block access to that because these people that have these branches and most of them probably don't even live there in a much of wealthy people. They're terrified that someone's going to go through that and then go into their private land.

They don't want to give people to access at all to their private land. So they stopped these corner crossings. And it's a giant disaster because then you have these areas that are public land that should be available to all of us and no one can get in there.

right? I mean, if the viewers can think of imagining a checker board and you're trying to get from one black square to the next black door, but have to step a tiny piece of White square, right, to get right, yes, that's battle in court right now. Yeah.

yeah. It's a disaster. If I own the land, I would carve out a big pathway. and. And give IT to the public yeah why if you have fifty thousand acres out there, whatever the help you have, why is this so hard to take a few acres and just make a path?

But you're not most land owners.

IT seems so simple, and it's like the simple list of you just make some sort of an easement.

Well, I want that would be good in some summer enters to do. But many people in in this business, four, five generations on their family ranch, and they've had a bad experiences, hunters, a committed cut, their Frances, shoot, their cows, leave their gates open, and they just say, i'm done and close. And they get really angry.

I just hunted on a guys ranch about a week ago up in north central montana, and he owned sixty sections, says sixty square miles of land, which may not be a big place in taxes, but for most the rest of the world, that's huge. It's huge. And we he gave us permission, but he had to tell us all the chAllenges he had and why he had a big sign.

Don't even ask, basically, but but I know that he, I know from, I know he was going to let us because some other friends are mind in honey. So he, but he had all these heart burns over things that had happened to him. Hunters gave him a really bad take their mouth.

And I, but I, as a single individual person, can do a lot about IT. And i'd like to see, you know, hunting organizations as many really good will help promote Better hunter behavior and Better hunter land on the relationships. You you would be very generous to do that. Most people will not.

Well, I would understand that if you ve been burned a few times, people poached on your land, and there's this attitude, people who don't have anything, and they see someone who has so much and like, screw this guy. I just gonna on this property. Look the alka right there over the ridge, four hundred yards away.

Let just go there. Shoot those out. He won't even know.

will pack IT out. That happens.

And then they get caught. And then this guy is like, got dam. And they are poaching on my land. And they hate hunters. Hunters are like everybody out. There's people that are amazing plumbers and they're real honest and they work hard and they're sweet hearts and you're happy to hire room and call limn and there's people that are just liars and they're ks. It's just like any other group of people else actually.

exactly. And I know in my business with wolves, i've always tried to be very transparent. I'm very honest. And if somebody asked me a question on given the best information I have, if I don't know answer, i'll say I don't know, but you know, you could call so.

So who maybe have the experience with that? I get nothing to hide by being dishonest or or trying to sell. Somebody is like hunting impacts of wolves on hunting IT.

If you look at population and then go like this all the time, and sometimes wolves costs, sometimes not. Sometimes it's winter, sometimes it's accumulation of lions, embarrassing moves. But it's like the stock market. People want to see and do this .

like the climate, and nobody wants to rid to that either. They hate looking at long term data.

I know.

And when people want to talk about the sky is follow, well, it's actually not. Look at IT over a long period time. You see this trend has always existed. In fact, this is one a couple times in history .

where we're facing interesting times.

It's bizarre, ideological.

I think the the hardest thing is so much social media, everything goes on instantly. And whether it's do or not.

everything goes on instantly and everything is I ideologically connected. You know, there's people that just don't want any animals ever killed ever, and these people that want no predators and the easier hunts possible. And they don't have a nuances perspective of the ecosystem of what biology is and like what these animals.

there's a whole world that they live in.

And this world is like interdependent. There's so many things going on on. And so people like, I remember there was A A documentary that came out, uh, how wolves changed rivers in yellowstone and, uh, they made this incredibly rosy picture of wolves coming in and they brought in beavers and they changed the rivers in the lakes and everything was Better.

And it's like, no, not really no. There's a lock going on all the time and like to single out this one aspect of this ecosystem and say, this is the cause of this. Now there's a lot of different causes, a lot on .

and that film or the video and viral time. There's no one species that's going to make or break the world except maybe people. But in terms of the impact now, and it's been shown since that video came out, the movie that, that might be true in a short time period in small places, but it's not the global picture for your last town park was have not saved the planet, they just have IT. It's just not that simple.

But what they have done that was brought some baLance, right?

I think, yes, they brought so that you can go either way. And I think people who are out on neither extreme can actually make people in the middle more involved with conservation efforts, like that guy with a movie. Well, it's rosy story in pieces of IT, maybe through in certain places for for a temporary spatial time period.

But then there's the guy and where was IT danes way homing, who rode over that wolf in the snowball in crippled? Did you heard about this to you? And then he brought IT back cripple to the bar and had .

IT in the bars of people could .

be entertain from hour before they took IT out back and try. T no, that's a pretty horrific thing, whether it's a dear online or any animal. But that horrific act got a lot of people in the middle red up to become more strong, conservative ness. So i'm sorry that that happened. But on the other hand, IT brings a lot of awareness to people who are not aware of the level of capacity of people to be .

stupid and evil. And that's evil. That, when I saw the photos of the war for my dad, is an evil act like that thing. Is that an incredible animal? You know, you have no right to do that. And if you crippled IT, if you crippled IT with a snowy, the right thing to do is to call someone or have a use to that, yeah, shoot IT or call someone every year. But to drag IT to .

a bar is just sick. I N IT over and oh, had a gun. No, was all special and IT.

but that the level of viral that people have towards wolves is very strange. And I think IT goes back to, like a little wet riding hood. And, you know, with the big bad wolf and there's this like this thing that we have in our mind that we don't have for other predators, we don't have IT for bears. We don't have for cats. No, it's weird, right?

I thought about this a lot. So why wolves? Um what's the deal with wolves? Why does IT create that? If you look at the fact, I mean, elk, coyotes, lions, pairs all coke machines, whatever, kill people, lightning every year, lots of people. Wolves, IT would be a very rare experience that occasionally happens, but it's so much, rather than everything else. And yet, people don't hate lions or grossly barrels.

I have a theory, okay, but I think it's a historical thing. I think girls are not a problem when you deal with civilization, when you deal with agriculture and people have guns and people have land and they have property. But I think at one point in time, IT was a much bigger deal when they were a larger populations of them, and they would hunt people, they would attack people. You wear the world, world. One story about .

a meeting corpses. Well.

not just that, about the the germans and the russians having a ceasefire because so many people get eaten by wolves. They actually, I talked to Steven neil about IT once, and he didn't. He was in sure was true.

So they actually researched that. I found I was true. They were an article meeting about IT.

No way. So I haven't seen.

So the story, I didn't remember where I heard IT from, but the story was the thing about war, especially trench warfare, the horrific nature of IT is that you don't necessarily always kill people. You shoot them and hurt them and wound them. And these wolves were aware that these people were living in these trenches and that they were wounded, and so they smell blood.

And they came in. And there were so many instances of people getting dragged out the trenches by packs of wolves, and there were so many instances of the parties going out like two or three men, and then they just find a boot with a foot in IT. And they realized that our boy, an animals, gotten them. And so they decided to have a ceasefire between the russians and the germans to just to get together and kill the walls, for they go back to kill each other.

Look at because I I haven't actually .

have you find that article, I believe it's on beat deter dot com.

I'd like to know where the references are.

thanks. Was their ceasefire during war.

war one to hunt walls, but I want to know references for the.

I think it's in new ork times, okay? Multiple newspapers in one thousand and seventeen report the story, including the l pass le harold okhotsk in new york times since then has become a favorite bit of barron banter among amateur historians. Oh, like me to roan, february in nineteen IT says that there, february in one thousand and seventeen, a dispatch from berlin noted large packs, walls moving in the populated areas of the german empire, the forest of lithuania, and not say that went volhynia bohea. I would you say they were .

close in locals hypothesize.

The war effort displaced the walls of the canine and started seeking out new hunting grounds. The hungry wolf's infiltrated rural villages, attacking cab, sheep, goat, and in two cases, children. They also showed up in the front lines, feeding on the fAllen and sometimes taking advantage of incapacity fighters.

Parties of russians and german scouts met recently, and we're hotly engaged in skirmish when a large pack of wolf's dash on the scene and attacked the wounded. Reported in one thousand hundred and seventy in oklahoma city times article. Hostilities were at once suspended in germans and russians instinctively attacked the pack, killing about fifty wolves.

So these are one of things that happens in russia. You get these super packs. I'm sure you've heard about those where they've had problems with them descending on, whether it's a cattle ranch or horses.

They've taken out horses, poison rifle fire, hand gades. Even machine guns were successfully tried in terms to eradicate the nuisance, according to one thousand nine hundred and seventeen new york times article, but also no avail. The wolves, nowhere to be found quite so large and powerful as in russia, were desperate in their hunger. And regardless of danger.

yeah i'm reading IT too. I just would .

say you will skeptical.

I'm very skeptical. Number one, there weren't IT says those .

seemingly far feet that turns out these claims are mostly accurate. Historians estimate the soldiers killed hundreds of was during the war, and that the surviving walls fled to escape a carnage, the like of which they had never encountered. Click on that length.

What is but we're looking at news stories from one hundred and ten years.

I know that nineteen, nineteen, seventeen, right? wild. I'm just saying little skeptical.

Well, no, but i'm very step.

They will. They lie in the news. Now that seems like something happened. And I don't think they made up the fact that they all got together in shot walls. And of have you read about russian super packs of walls? No, okay.

no one. I read the literature.

but this is recently OK. Within a few years ago, there was a problem with the super packs where they I don't remember what the theory was as to why they IT forms such large packs. But there was large packs of up to one hundred walls that were going into farms.

So my question about the story, and i'm not i'm not i'm just saying captial two thousand .

and ten thousand eleven, a super pack of walls numbering up to four hundred reportedly .

terrorized .

the russian town of but good luck with that very population three hundred or thern pedia. Now they're a little Better than that. Look a videos sketch one of the romans inhabitant areas of the northern heavy. More than thirty horses were killed in just four days and I remember reading about this in two thousand and ten um it's said, according the local officials, teams of hunters were stablish to patrol neighborhoods, shoot the walls onside. Animal experts suspicious of the claims says that wolves usually form packs, are no more than inten to fifteen animals, although the particularly harsh winters may have killed off the world's usual prey, forcing them to attack larger animals. This, this is multiple sources have the story, and I I remember about a decade.

so I D love to look up more detail, but I can tell, I can tell you about, I can tell you about the new source. And I not not familiar with that and I don't read that kind of stuff usually. But if it's true, it's true.

I I don't happen to believe it's true. But what I can say about the true about wolf biology is wolves live in packs that are gentle family group. They have a genetic investment in their pack members.

There's often times one or two that aren't related and they defend the territory to the death, whether there's five of them or twenty five of them. And that would be the large pack. The largest pack i've ever heard of an was in yellow stone. Anything was thirty four years. Three females had pops.

So to have four hundred walls, I move together.

Why would they do that? What's the benefit of them? They're gathering, collaborating with animals that aren't related to them, that have no genetic benefit to see the me to survive, and Normally packs that are not related. Kelly, each other is the biggest guys of mortality in yale's one park. Is wolves killing non pack members?

Wolves are very, very intelligent. I extremely interest here. And could you imagine a scenario where resources were so diminished that wolves recognize that killing each other had no benefit and that moving together as a group, they could do something thing to these farms? So like, if you are A A pack of four hundred wolves and you choose to attack horses, that seems to me a lot more success than three walls or five.

I get you same, but you ask what I believe IT. And you know.

I went this based on your real life lived experience. But we believe, but things do very according to very unusual circumstances in terms of the environment.

right? So if if they were four hundred walls that were starving, they would start mean they .

last do that. They were horses.

You're giving them some human reasoning skills. They don't think like humans stuff. They just don't. And I am sorry, not don't if if not .

calling you liar.

you and i'd have to investigate that. But I I am one hundred percent skeptical on IT just because of everything that I am familiar with. But IT doesn't, you know, if stuff happens.

I no t no dog in the race, dog to fight. But my my thought is that in perhaps unusual circumstances, like cyberia, where is so incredibly harsh that if you do find population that had been surviving because there was a sufficient amount of wireless for them to kill, then all something there wasn't, but there was farms. They all might kind of like descend on these farms and perhaps not even fight for resources because they realized there was no benefit in that.

You ask me to believe so OK you. But I don't anything to contribute further on.

I guess just a science tomioka. Kay, don.

i'm a science denier.

There you go. I like that because people great. It's a little thing what you saying um when you uh so what is the largest that you have obtain.

the largest packet observe? I have only observed probably fifteen, but that's not yet stone, that's in my history and I know yellow stone, like I said, I know one year to get up to thirty four. And I think that probably the larger i've ever heard of being recorded that I I know in fact, or what might be forty, but is extremely .

unusual as well.

might be canada. I try remember my source, I can't remember but thirty four and that's unusually large number .

number in yellowstone was because of the unusual circumstances, the reintroduction in a bunch of animals that weren't used to having wolves around.

Yes, I think well, three things happened. Three different female head pops on average they six po p 7 pops。 So there's recruiting zero, eighteen, twenty pops right there.

In addition to the adults that were there, they had a good year. They had lots of pray. And so all those pups, presumable made IT to their first year. So for one winter, they were huge pack.

And then mortality happens is that wolves are not designed to live in packs of thirty four, I mean, packs in the midwest where the prayer smaller and the walls are smaller. They live in smaller packs in montana, owing idaho average pack might be somewhere between ten and fifteen. And every year, you can remember every year they have six to seven pops and by the next spring, they're back down that six or seven through mortality or dispersal or whatever happens hunting. Yeah so what happens? Yeah.

it's a hard life. IT is a hard life.

And other thing i've heard lots of people, while I heard several people, and people I know quite well, tell me stories about, they encountered a wolf, or they encountered a wolf pack, and they were really frightened casio. They had their dog with them, and walls are interested.

The dog like a little carl there or something, and the wolves circling around and these people were terrified and when they told me to start two people, they told me the story and they said, yeah, they could have killed me and result my responses yeah, easily but but you're here telling me this story, right? So it's not very common for all to teach people that's just about not more, not anymore. And I don't know how good the reporting was way back when.

So but way back when. If you think about people that were living in a time where there was no guns, or the very least markets, and you're dealing with people that are completely isolated and you're dealing with harsh climate, tes like status yeah and then there might be a time where there the food source for the walls is diminished. The homesteaders didn't really have a problem with wolf's though.

attacking people, right? That's what i'm say.

right when we had time.

But they had guns, they had guns, said poisons and they had traps. They had livestocks, they had children. That's just what I see in this country with probably um I don't mean to be offensive about a Better formation with all the opportunity in the world for all those things. You just set up remote living, no protection, harsh winners like the winner of charly rustle, painting or all the cattle .

or starving. You don't have packs of four hundred wolves .

coming into killing.

Have you ever seen the word in hers socks documentary? Um happy people life in the tiger ah is an amazing it's beautiful, incredible.

It's beautiful. I just actually watch IT within the last .

I thought about that when I was thinking about you living alone by yourself. Like that's how those people, they would go out there and they would just go with a dog, and they would go live by themselves in these cabinet that they had fortified for the entire winter and just live out there amongst what? And they loved IT. They all loved that. They all couldn't wait to get out there.

How many were killed by wolf's? None.

none. But again.

tilers .

the tigers.

awesome .

predators on people. Ah oh, no.

to kill people. Member in a 的 tiger。 And I remember the name, but it's a story of A A predatory tiger. And these guys a story of the tiger's life and how they go to finally .

try and kill IT. It's terrifying .

and it's true.

start. yeah.

And it's modern times of my god.

Oh.

no. Thank you. No.

thank you. No, no. yeah. It's just a matter of whether not you think when you should have act in you in the wrong spotted land where he's at.

yes. And I think that tiger had an injury that was caused by humans, and that's often in the case there, I was unable to hunt very professionally or in the according. I mean, when you reading the book, you get the drift that I had a venice against humans because I was injured.

And I imagine that's probably the case to IT be, as they are scared if they survive a situation. The singular story of vladimir mark, of a poach who met a greasy and in the winter of one nine hundred and ninety seven, after shot wounded tiger, then stole apart the tigers, kill the injured tiger, hunted mark off down on the way that appears to be chilly, linger, premeditated. The tiger stocked out mark koh's cabin, systematically destroyed anything that had markov sent on IT, then waited by the front door from mark love to come home. Wow, yeah.

There's no doubt that animal, according to the story here, definitely venture on its mine.

Wow, IT wasn't impulsive. Response of violence says the tiger was able to hold this idea over a period of time. The animal waited for twelve to forty eight hours before attacking.

When mark a. Finally appeared, the tiger killed him, dragged in the bush in aam. The eating may have been secondarily violent, explained, I think he killed them just because .

he had a bone to pick. The book is called the tiger. I had the title right? It's a fascinating story. Yeah and you know, it's interesting.

Oh my god, look the guys and next the flight. Oh my god, it's missing. That's the author with the size of a female property.

That's a female. That's a small oh my goodness. Yeah yes.

Fascinating story. And and then there is the tiger .

is just trying to .

be a tiger eighty.

So is a different time era. The .

photo .

I would buy.

But some of the interesting things looking at that is like in glasse park or anywhere play where wolves overlap with with mt. Lions, which we call lions mot lions and grazy beds. And I whenever when they they kill one of the other competing predators, just like that tiger red, they don't usually eat IT. It's secondary IT to kill off a competitor.

So walls don't get eaten by mountain lines. They do get killed by mt. Lines occasionally.

right? occasionally. Matter of fact, one of the color wolves that was just introduced was .

killed by melting.

Yeah, one of the time that was just do so.

They kill them because they are a competitor.

And one on one, one hundred twenty one cat and one hundred pound wolf and one cats gonna win. But when you have a pack of walls, I mean, we've watched the treat, treat the cat in, no, wait till I get IT no, wait. But when I win, the cat doesn't have a chance but no.

And I mean the chance and right?

I mean, when the cat one and you got a pack of eight way, but we documented a case where the wolf's treat a cat and when IT couldn't step the training longer, IT was on a skinny large pole, is sliding down in, got going, they kill IT and they just ripped apart and .

they didn't eat any of IT wow.

It's strictly to vanquish a competitor just like the tiger is interesting because .

we didn't you think that food is scarce and that meat is precious and that if they did kill the mount line, that really, which one do we eat this thing?

Well, they had Better options. Have you ever eat mount line? I have, it's good. Yeah, I had to.

And that's why it's weird. I don't actually, you know what I did. I eat IT.

I don't know. I have what I feel like someone gave me some. I don't think I ate IT. I think it's in my freezer OK like somebody might .

have .

served IT to me .

somewhere like the backtrack looks like a park it's a .

Steve and cooked that he said he was a tremendous IT is he called IT superb. He said he was like a superior pork without the fat yeah, that was really good, which is, like, most people would not think you even eat mountain line.

apparently either. Well.

that was was reading about one of the trappers, one of the original people that was traveling across the country in the seventeen hundreds, his favorite meals. Wolf.

oh.

you're kidding me. Now guy was eating like wall wolf meat.

I don't think IT be very good. There are skinny and stringy and sinne. Yeah.

I don't know why. I mean, I don't know why that would be anyone's favorite. Then maybe that's like a cool thing .

to tell people that's like you .

find some guys want you to be scared from what he alone, even older, and that his favorite, he lives by himself. So he just eat holes, right? This isn't. That sounds like something band would say.

or was yet wolverines.

Oh, right. Mag, eat wolverine. No.

anyway, no, it's it's i'm glad you show me that stuff because it's nice to know the stuff is still out there and alive and well. I hear at all the time I hear about the canadian super wolves.

And what were the canada when there? There is a thing about mamas, right, that mamas, as they get into a colder range, their larger mamas, like, if you see, like, let's say, northern Alberta White tail deer versus and arizona, while tail deer .

to a certain point, and then we get to where it's so cold and arctic that the resources, the availability at food is diminished like arctic wolves and elsewhere .

island are pretty .

small and they're ite smaller. The press there are smaller than, say, the care booo in alaska is slight because it's hard to make a living. But yeah, northern climate, like the wolves from canada most of are pretty big and same with the not everything, yes.

but it's a resource issue, right? This is the reason why most people think when they think of greasy bears, grazy bears have a very similar size, but then you get to coastal Brown bears, they're much larger and it's really just access to protein.

right? Yeah, yeah, you got, i've been up to to the kneel to watch the barrison. Oh my god, they're chesty enormously fat t they're almost have seen walking around you because you good .

all time harberton there.

They're so content because they have unless food resources, that's why you can have tourists go up and see and watch greasily bears feeding within hundred yards of you, sometimes eating salmon and you and no danger. Why would they bother you when they have the thousands of bounds of salmon in the river?

There's a fantastic video I don't ever seen IT, but there's a photographer and he's got like a little long chair set up and he's hot graphing all these enormous Brown bears that are feeding off salmon and this one walks up and gets is close to him as where jammy is to us wow. And it's huge and it's just sits next to him. Oh my god, it's next time and looks down.

Watch IT this is that's a big there. Oh my god. I mean, just imagine that is literally where Jamie is. Oh my god, and he doesn't care at all of these people. It's not thinking of them as a food source.

No, my questions. Why did the bear bother?

He is looking at the river. He doesn't even care of the people with there. He's just looking, looking at the river. Go on and take a nap here. So just chills out.

oh my god.

mean, any other time? So if you were in the middle of the forest and you saw the first while, they wouldn't be that big in the world of the forest. But if you saw bearlike than the middle force to be absolutely terrifying, he had be scared to you.

You'd be scared to him. You d have your bar spray.

Yeah, yeah, look at this guy is so close. Yeah and the bear just sort walks off. But because he's got so much food.

I kind of a similar experience make neal not that close but and close enough that I was uncomfortable in ly with bears because I used to bears that have skinny resources and they their veracious and they're pretty aggressive in the floor because they can be because they're getting a hyperfine ia where they got to a good enough calories to hybrid. Nate, if you keep them from getting their calories is you are the hockey er bridge maybe or you are the the elk that you just hung in the woods and night before and you went back to get that happens. People hang their game in .

the woods and they go back .

the next day and .

a gracy bears found IT have you? D, D, oh, G, A island. It's in aska.

It's a connected to it's like one of the island change that's right near what is the big one where they find all the the big Brown bears yeah. So right off of korea. So they were l cunt, and they shot in elk and on .

that island.

Yes, on the it's a very hard hunt, incredibly difficult hum, because the term is almost impossible to verse. So to get a few miles takes hours and hours and hours. So they go through this, especially bush, walking through this incredibly dense terrain.

They find an elk, they shoot alc, and then they're very far from camp. So they take some of the meat, and then they hang the meat, the trees, and you know they set up they didn't know that when they came back when I say that a bear had claimed that ilk. So course there was a good pile.

There's all sorts of stuff there for the bear, obviously the smell of the meat. And so um they they took a long time to get where the bear was and they all SAT down. There's a large group of them because they were filming for this television and show my friend remi warring, my friend yones and then Steve and a few other people working on the crew and there's sit down to have lunch.

And little do they know that there is an enormous, like eleven foot bear that IT claimed that, and he comes running through the camp, oh my god. And one guy, our friend, dirt mith, was actually on his back. The bear poured through the camp and through the people.

And just I don't think you recognize how many people were there. So we didn't know exactly what to do. So he wound up literally on the back of a bear for like ten to fifteen yards before fell off of.

Then the bear goes in the woods, starts wooing. None of them had their guns out. None of them were ready.

They were just eating lunch. They really fucked up. They have made A A huge tactical air. They also ignored scat, which they they weren't sure like whether or not that was a bear that had recently, yeah, you know.

So they were there for quite a while, guns drawn, like trying to end off this bear. They eventually got out there. But both Steven ella and remi warn have told the story on my podcast. And it's, wow, bone chilling.

Oh yeah. I had her that I Steve .

said that this thing was literally feet from his head, mashing its teeth as it's running through the camp and it's enormous just that he said, you have all these thoughts in your mind of what you would do and how you would feel and he said, it's just retile an like your your brain goes to the the most base survival. There's a recognition of this enormous predator. Unbelievably sobering experience.

yes. And what I would point out with that is that that bear had every chance in the world to kill everyone of those guys. Yeah, I didn't hurt any of them.

Well, I was just trying to protect its its kill, but I thought was IT. But I T his theory was that the bear did realize how many people were there to ran through the group. I didn't know like who hit like yon hit in the face with tracking .

polls hit there in the face in the .

face with tracking polls like that close to him, right? Imagine I head that big, that close and you hit with tracking policy ah and I just ran pass them probably try not knowing what which one to target or what to do, right? And then they gather guns out and then I don't know exactly how they eventually got to a point where they thought confident enough they could walk right and then walk with meat on their back, right? So they have they went there to pack out, and they have all these guys so they can make the pack out a little bit easier. So now you walk and even slower because you you get fifty pounds on your back.

Maybe they left a little behind.

They yes. I mean.

yes, I probably would have leave their shoulders and their neck yeah.

at least something at least to fill my point .

is that bear could have run through and killed one of them or all of them. In a moment of anger, IT IT didn't did a bluff charge to turn around. And with the nah, its teeth, yeah and IT could tell them seriously.

even if they have their guns, would have killed one or two of them.

right? And then we have this happened a lot of montana every year, at least one person is killed by a bear or more minor can be injured. And the thing that's common is he said the bear charges, and before that, he was working.

And a lot of times they do. It's called the beloved charge, but people don't want to wait till the very is fifteen years the way to figure out if it's a bluff charge or not. So they shoot them and I bear spray is very, very effective um because you can do a longer distance and it's accurate. But I I personally not the the science and many year listeners won't believe this is science shows that average honor is Better off with the barriers, ray, than a firearm. In a moment of panic, you can say what .

you would do Better off to survive.

to survive with less injury released fit, less fatal. And people have spread a bear that's in attacking somebody in the bear. Brakes often leaves course you got to deal with the have been embarrass ray.

pepper spray, yeah, I have. Maybe we pepper spray a bunch people or once. It's awful.

How did you get every golf camera .

and get ve run away? Because actually IT was tear gas. Now that I remembering, okay, so what we did, we put these people in this, like this cement's structure, I was like, how long can you tolerate IT ever get exactly what the stunt was? But the wind took a lot of and blew IT through the crew, and we were all running away and was in your eyes, and i'm sure, tear gas to provide Price similar to the effects that you get from pepper spray.

I think pepper spray, yeah, I might even be worse otherwise they have tear gas for bear repEllent. They don't think it's bad, but i'm just and people can argue this since in IT all depends on the situation. But in general, the spray is a more effective tool because because you can spray IT three times past for you sitting and the bear heads that spray and they ran away.

And I guess i've heard the bare biologist is set to try shooting at rolling tire at forty miles and orientation. How accurate your shot talk because that's what you're shooting out if a barge charging you, right? And it's difficult to keep your act together.

that's the big problem, right? Panic.

right? It's not it's not necessarily the killing packers .

just going to hit a more effective .

so a flame through our .

I always .

Carry bear spray. I'm hiking. You don't Carry gun. No, really, this bird uni.

these bears may work on our cats.

I've heard IT, and I have never heard about IT being used on wolves because generally wolves aren't sneaked in around. But I find a cats stock in the a line. And boy, you bet I had my very spryer. Yeah, absolutely.

even never been a situation where you have a cats talking or close to you that.

ah, oh, that's .

what's scary, right? Just have you? No, not really. no. I D want kill my dog in color, a little dog, tiny.

sorry.

yeah. Oh ama, but there's a big difference, I think, between what you see and what's there.

Oh yeah, I think if if you had an improved visions for heat at detector and you could see what's out in the words you've never go outside .

to take a equal in your because there are so ware of you and everything out there we're basically almost blind yes, you know and especially at night time were almost blind and they have senses that are beyond our wildest imagination. We we were talking earlier today um where someone brought up um that stuff that hunters used to spray on them to to killer cent. I go listening me shit is nonsense.

First of all, whatever that stuff is, they're gonna smell that stuff and it's not going to hyper cent. You look, I don't know the science behind I don't want to kill anybody y's business, but I, as you are with the whole thing, i'm supersonically that a deer or an elk is not going to smell you if you spray some junk. The bar from cabell's on you. I know anybody y's business.

but I can tell you from traps to I do the same thing i'm incredibly careful about but they can still smell IT be more be carefully as you can be. But ah I just don't .

think we can even imagine the kind of sense that they have, the kind of ability to smell in here with those enormous and those noses and those eyes they can see at night. I think we're just guessing and we're trying it's almost like when you try to imagine the size of the universe and someone says those thirteen point seven billion years old light years and like, okay, how big that like you know your head just someone tried to explain to me in, uh, way that they actually resonated. That is similar to how you can smell sunk, except much more directional. You like a schunk, can die a mile away and you can smell IT, which is really weird because there's no other cent like that in the nature now that you can pick up at one animal, spray one thing a mile away, and you're driving in your car and you strong, drunk around here, which is crazy. But now what this guy was saying to me is that, now imagine that but directional and Better ah and that's like what a bear can do .

yeah eban studies and if the wind is right, i've read several miles second smells IT IT is unbelievable and yeah .

I incredible yeah I think yeah .

the whole thing thing we just this way beyond our ability to detect and been bearing these jobs after being so careful with everything and I have, it's kind of voodoo and science, max is art and science. And you bury everything, you bury the trap, the hook, the grapple cable and me just everything. And then you covered up, and it's been in the ground two weeks notings disturbed than one day. You see where wolf is come by, taken its power and dug, get the backside of the trap and lifted IT out by the spring and pulled IT up onto the trail, not snapped. And then they'll be .

a Scott to feed away.

Well.

I fuck you.

Yeah wo. 所以 why do they do that？

Well, maybe because they know it's there and they probably have had some experience in their life with traps.

But why mess with that IT off? They know it's dangerous, right? I mean.

ah what do you think is they trying to tell people i'm not that stupid?

My my imagination of my theory is that maybe this is an offer the'd already caught been caught and it's got other pack members that are naive and IT stops because IT smells. It's like, oh, man, I know what this is. I maybe it's time to show junior what's going on here. Maybe they pull that up. I I don't know.

Have you ever seen the video of the a rat and the rat takes a stick and blows the mouse trap so you can get the food. The rat actually brought over a tool to spring the trap and purposely spring IT.

I haven't seen the video.

but at the problem with the video, the problem, I have the video, S S, I don't know the source, so I don't know if they train this rat. I don't know that. So they maybe done that just to make a viral video.

Still pretty extraordinary that this right figures how to could take a stick and IT like, moves IT and puts the stick on the rat trap. Rat trap springs and then IT goes over to and by the way, IT doesn't even flinch when the rat trap springs, which no see if I find to tell me. So it's really weird because, ah this is IT h so he smells IT yeah, he smells IT.

So yeah. So he goes away, and I check out this. The thing about him not flinching is the crazy. So he gets to stick, he said he list IT up and drops IT. He didn't flink, he didn't flinch at all. Is that insane? I mean, imagine a wild animal seems like something, something maybe is done that before, but there was something weird about IT where, yeah, he must have known .

that that's going to happen. And the camera with a full eye reflection, sitting indoors, in room, that map of wildness to me.

that something wild, right? They're domesticated in some sort of world, but you know there's more as close to as many rats as there are people in new york city by weird estimations, which i'm sure they don't have a good accurate account with family rest, but there's so many of them. And there's an amazing documentary called rats.

It's on netflix and it's really good. And IT IT shows you how intelligent they aren't. One of things that they do. They take the Young, brash rats and theyll let them go try the food at first, see its poison, because we've been poison so many times.

So this Young dummy, so like all IT send sams sams, sams dumas, so sam, the rat runs over and eats the poison and get second. And like, let's get out here and they take off. But they have some very bizarre survival instinct.

Ts, that's highly tuned to this recognition that they are being at least tried the not prayed upon necessarily, but sometimes trying to kill them, not eating them. But some weird situation was poison. So they have figured out what poison is. So they'll like sly, smart, crazy. So they'll send A A dummy to go out, a Young guy to go out and eat the poison.

Give IT to mikey.

Mikey likes everything I really like. What kind of natural adaptation is that and like what is that from? Is is like there's i'm i'm sure you aware of this, but there's a very bizarre study that they have done where there's a thing there's a concept called morph resonance.

And the idea is that once one animal learns this, the other animals will learn IT easier. And that this is a scientifically proven and that the ideas that there is some sort of a sharing of information that is not local and that we don't totally understand. So the the concept is the ways been proven, is that rats on one side of the country, if they go through amazed, the rats on the other side of the country will go through the mazes quicker.

The exact same maze, see, we can find that so they don't know what what this is like. You know, I think we have a very naive believe that the senses that we have recognized, all of them, whether they are site, sound, touch, taste, whatever they are, this is available. And that the concept might, the idea is that there might be something that we've missing, or something that we really, yeah, we as dumb, blind human beings in terms of the ability to see things we don't have the ability to tune in to what these animals continue into.

I think there's a huge portion of brain that we never, never touch. And I think animals are more tuned. I think in many ways, many species are smarter than us just because they can send the environment .

more yeah but there's something rat learning in resonance yeah so according the hypothesis um for made a formative causation there's no difference income between in eight and learned behavior both depending motor fields given by morph resident the hypothesis therefore IT mits a possible transmission of learn behavior from one animal to another and leads to a testable prediction which differs to testable predictions which refer not only from those of the orthodox theory of inheritance but also from those of the la maran lamkin theory and from inherent through epigenetic modifications of gene expression so animals of an inbreed strain are placed under conditions in which they learn to respond to a given stimulus in a characteristic way.

They are then made to repeat this pattern of behavior many times. X hypotheses IDE the new behavioral field, which will be reinforced by more for residents, will only cause the behavior of the trained animals to become increasingly habitual, but will also affect, though less specifically, any similar animal exposed to a similar stimulus. The large of the number of animals in the past that have learned the task, the easier you should be for the subsequent similar animals to learn IT.

Therefore, in experiment of this type should be possible to observe a progressive increase in the rate of learning, not only in the animals descended from train ancestors, but also in genetically similar animals descended from untrained ancestors. Is a pretty wild's start. It's pretty wide.

Yeah, IT just speaks to this. I think we naively look at our senses as being the only ones are available. There's obviously some kind of communication that transpires between animals that allows them to hunt packs, particularly wolves, like they have strategies.

Yes, they do things like they know how to corner animals, they know how to fund them and to like pinch points. They do IT on purpose. And they seem to be aware of what they're doing through, whether it's gestures or fair month or something that we're just guessing on, but they're accomplished at IT.

It's not like a singular individual event. You can point you like, maybe I was just dumb luck. They ran the deer through this area, and the other wolves just happened to be there. No, no. They have specific tasks where they have walls. So to get on the top of the ridge and let themselves be known so that they get these animals running, and then the other walls are ahead of them, and then they have walls are fall behind them.

The elstone has been a great place to observe hunting. I mean, when I I was working up north west of montana is heavily forced. We never, almost never got the watch wolves chasing spray yin less through in the airplane.

But in the lamar, you get scopes and everybody's watching IT. And i've seen some pretty incredible chases. They're certain in some packs, certain individuals are the chasers, the Younger animals, and some of the individuals are the kodak a.

They go in for the kill after the animals been tired. And I guess there was some older animals that are too valuable, potentially, to risk being injured early on. But they, they jum joined in the chase, and they know to kill an animal.

So and one thing i've always wondered, I don't know if this is with the morphic resonance, but um that's something different maybe but i've always wondered when wolves were first walking down from canada and dispersing from glaser before wolves were reintroduced and there was a very thin population of wolves out there, how do they know where to go for? For example, there is a wolf pack in the nine mile. It's a red drainage outside of mazur.

And this a pair wove. Ves had formed a mating system, and they had a litter pops. The female was poached a memorial day, which is thus, pups are born in medal April.

So they were pretty Young. They were five, six weeks old. They were still dependent on mom. And the concern was that the dad wouldn't bail the race pops because he's GTA go hot. Then maybe there just been, well, two weeks, two weeks after the female was dead, my colleague mico was working on there. He, dian, are you missing any coloured wolves from glaser said, you, I miss in several that I don't know where they want.

He, just because I just had a color wolf show appearing, joined the nine mile mail I said, really said, here's my list of frequencies in the missing warm that had been missing and he put, ran through the receiver and listened and one of those walls was won that i'd caught in glaser and disappeared six, seven months earlier. So like, so he wanted her own in the cyber space, but mountain space, trying to look for a place to fit in. And of a sudden, when this female get shot, boom, she's there to fill in the slot.

How does that happen? And that happens in yellow. One, two or one of the reading animals will be killed, and very soon after, a wolf of unknown. While there, they know a lot of the walls, but a wolf of just show up the rate gender, the rate age, and and potentially bond and start a new pack.

How do they know? I guess all I can say is with that, this send the wolf smelling the year in the skat can detect all kinds of things harMonically in the the, the dominance of an animal of the female went missing. They want smell anymore. Maybe it's a male, female coming in and you knows, but geographically hardly know, to migrate right to another miles and show up exactly when the other wealth disappeared. Well.

they've been trying to figure out for whatever what's going on with birds and how birds like sand help crain's, for example. Yes, I mean, canadian geese. Like what's going on? Like how are these birds figuring out these incredible migration part.

right? It's amazing me. Have you ever heard of the book called world on the wing by paul? I think last is we did. How was something? It's about the world immigration.

IT is mind boggling if you like to read nature stuff in science, it's written so anybody can enjoy, you don't have to be a scientist, but is fascinating full effects about the world of bird migration and how they get places. And like a particular important flat in china that was critical habitat for a group of birds suddenly gets develop. And it's like a though winter in ground for half a million of these birds.

There's whatever IT was. And certainly, where do they go? right? right?

I don't know. Migratory birds are very fast. Oh, I know. And like what are they following and then what GPS they have in a little tiny brains? They have a little tiny brains, I know, but yet they're able to use something like there's a theory that is the magnetic .

right or the stars are .

whatever the stars really an ordered that one.

I just heard a lot of stuff, and i've had member, yeah. One winter, one winter night I was at my remote cabin in that was in my city, and IT was stormy. And I was like, november IT was storm me.

And I I went outside, do you see out house? And I heard this calling, and IT was dark and store me, and I IT was calling and calling and got closer and closer. And I put my break flash light straight up.

And there is a flock of snowshoes. I never seen snowy ys up there, never. And they were circling around, and they were lost in the storm.

And there's no lights up there, except for my house side in my flashlight. And they were circling around the metal. I listening that hunting call, I thought, how are they going to survive IT? This is the valley bottom.

Or they're going to try and go up over the mountains in the storm? Are they are going to crash land in the metal for the night? Anyway, I got to think in about him.

I thought, why? How did they get here? They get blown, of course, I just shut my light off.

And I don't know what happened to have never song again. wow. But I think about these birds, a lot of die migrating fly across .

the entire ocean. Flying.

I know, wish I could do that when I was driving. I try sometimes .

there's there was a very .

big bird trust.

That's right, albatross. And they literally sleep while they are soaring across the sky.

But out those big, oh.

I the ve yeah .

for month or years yeah, I mean, it's crazy, right?

What are you doing? What you doing that? There you go. yeah. Albatross can fly nonstop over sixteen thousand kilometers. That so crazy, for example, a grey headed albatross flu, thirteen thousand, six hundred and seventy miles around the world in forty six days, in two thousand and five. Oh my god.

that's crazy.

Lacon albatross can travel sixteen hundred miles on forging trips to feed their chicks. Large albatros es. Can spend up to five years at c arbitration, can go up to six years before returning to the island where they were born to mate, lay eggs. unbelievable.

Yeah, I got to see all the trust. One time when I was done, I think was I was done. I think I was a new zealand. But there amazing. I it's .

crazy here. We're talking about how they they can fly over a vast areas without flapped their wings. They assess the wind, expanding almost none of their own. wow.

So IT would be interesting to me. I would hope the day would come with wolves and other large carniverous where people learn about the science and they get just as excited. Is this instead of the wolves of get out OK? Well, I just put.

is a narrative in this country, right? Yeah, I think the narrative was, first of all, they were killed off a long time ago by poisons and by ranchers and by settings. And because of that, we grew up with this narrative that they had to kill off the walls. So then these damn hippies come and vote and bring.

And I wanted to ask you about that to um what your feeling is on biology that's done by vote, which is how informed of these people that are cashing as vote how emotional is this and how much of these these decisions that people are making what one of them being a that I think was like particularly agreeable was the delisting of grisly bears in PC because I have a good friend who lives up there and he's like, there's a lot of grisly bears up there. You'll still allow black bear hunting, but they're not controlling the grizly bear population because the people in vancouver, or that's the large population, they have the most votes. They decided to get a outlaw, but they call trophy hunting.

And so biology, by vote, by people that probably don't know anything about what's going on, they don't have to, other than have this little emotional. But I think going back to what we're talking about is that we have this narrative that the wolves are bad. The wolves were killed off for a good reason.

We don't want wolves, oh my god, people bring your back wolves. What are they do? And we want to kill those dam wolves. And so there's there's a good present of the population that lacks this nuanced perspective of the complexity of the ecosystem and how press val, how amazing IT is to be able to see walls like if if you're i've never seen them in the wild.

I saw one once in yeah in Alberta but I was so brief was dusk IT was like was actually after the last night. So I was running across the dirt road, wolf, in a camera trap photos of these wolves. So that's most likely what I was.

And they give out wolf taxes. You can get as many wolf tax you want up there, but good luck for anything. One, you know, there a lot smarter than you, or a lot Better living in the woods, and you are. But we have these, these ideas that are ingrained in us that the wolves were killed off for a good reason, and they're only being brought back because of morons.

We use some that up pretty well.

This is not how .

people feel about IT. yes. So couple of things. I as a with conservation ist, I guess it's researcher and manage well.

don't you love them?

I love wolves. I love dogs. I love foxes. I love my tail. I love my life that's Better.

And i'm kind of in middle obviously impassionate about wolves. And I lead in turn to whatever we need to do to ensure that they continue species. I'm not saying they're going to live in iowa, texas.

I'm just saying there's places that they can live more they more likely belong and just onna put IT that way. But I am am not in favor of reintroductions and I was not in favor of the yellow stone in the central idle reintroductions to a usually surprises people because I promote wolf conservation. But I felt that wolves were coming down on their own from canada.

And before those wolves were ever reintroduced, by nineteen ninety five were like eight packs of wolves in the state. Tana, seventy, seventy five walls. And you can go GLE out the U. S.

Fiona life service, the reports they were making IT and I feel like some of these places where reintroductions are happening because of ballot box initiatives like colorado wolves were already starting to get to colorado o and the people who are wolf proponents say we want them introduced because they'll never make the great desert across while mean they will all be killed. They can't make IT. Well, few of have.

And they are even made pups in nineteen and was twenty, twenty or twenty one. And then this wolf was donated about the wolf mission. Yeah, the wolf that was killed, trapped in colorado this year that came from the great lakes.

My god, how did you get there? But I did. So I feel sort of that colorful is on the cusp of nature recovery. If it's going to be one year or ten years or fifty years, it's a time issue. And I think the same was true for yellow stone in century idaho.

They were already getting to those places, wolves that already have been seen, two of them confirmed in and around yellowstone park in one thousand nine ninety one, two before they were reintroduced. And my wolf's going to the l to idaho. It's just a slower wave and people wanted jump start this with reintroducing all.

Well, in my humble opinion, i'm not a psycho logic, but I think the social tolerance of humans for anything is Better when IT isn't forced on them. I don't like having things forced on me. nobody.

yeah. So when you force swoops on somebody, it's was going to meet with human resistance. If they walk their on their own, I believe they will get.

There are science is shown that they do IT just takes longer. The other thing of interest about the reintroductions is that people think the wolf loving hips pushed to have the wolf is we introduced into elliston. And I i'll just say, you know, but it's the same. And just some point IT is that faction.

But the reason had happened was because two conservative and the senators, one from idaho mlle, one from wilma simple, very conservation ranching supporting base, promoted to congress to pass laws to get those wolfes reintroduced, because they could see the writing on the wall that the wolves are coming anyway. And if they walked on there in their own, they could be folly, endure. Wolf, we are introduction.

They get a different classification called nani sentier experimental population. Meaning, because humans put them there, you can manipulate them and kill them with their taking lifestyle. Is just more flexible management. So the senators that were to get there anyway to just put them in there, really. So yeah, that's a little bit of the interesting background that people are unaware with the reintroductions that IT was really people where the right and where the left coming towards a common goal for different reasons.

Want to see a crazy video of the wolf .

that was in Bakers field .

yeah in california yeah my friend filming so this wolf, he was driving down the freeway in Baker field, california and they looked off and there is a wolf. I've i've sent you this, right, Jimmy. Yeah do you think you still have IT? I know cody said IT to me I I can find IT um so my friend who was out there film this wolf off the highway and this is like five miles from an indian out burger sorry yeah and it's it's in california I mean we're talking about an hour forty from los Angeles oh my gosh yeah and the he was speculating that perhaps this wolf was brought there by someone dam I might be on my other phone the recently Jimmy, I know I saved IT up I can find IT but this might be a little bit of opinions maybe it's here um so this ah this wolf was very cool look and like this very big black wolf and he's like wandered around these cows and then someone comes and shoot them away and he runs off.

Have a lot I think I read about this wolf. There's a wolf that went down to the central california valley and ended up going down through the veneer country. I think IT was probably that worth that IT was seen oh .

probably I mean, there's not that a lot of people super skeets ticals like how would a wolf wind up there. But if you what you're saying in terms of the amount of land that they can travel on, oh god, sane, hundreds and hundreds of miles.

Historically, back at arms of time, wolves had the largest global distribution of any man in the world, except people. I mean, wolves live from the arctic to the praise, to the temperate forest, to the gaza strip still.

And they lives. There's in netherland .

right now. Wolves have expanded. They will live anywhere that we don't kill him off because they did historically, I mean, they were wolves onto that island. Now we have different wolves there, different goals. But I think IT yeah anyway, stack so um but they live l anywhere because they can eat anything.

But mostly what they need is is for lager hood mammals busy dial terrible most whatever case ionic livestock, they need a place where they can secure that they can well and raise pups um and then they need a freedom of persecution from humans being at traps, poison, shooting, whatever. If you have enough of those three factors, they will be there. They mean even showing up an I O and missouri and the for years and years now. But they they don't make IT because they get killed.

but they're try and yeah, I think I might saved IT under wolf if I look. Video.

I love to that .

video thing that you can do now with a your iphone, we can just search for wolves .

really it's .

stuff is shown me that we're the love shown me old pictures. I have a carl maria that shows you that one now, sorry.

you are one or .

your friend. I M I know I had the video.

So if you get a chance, joe, if you really interested seeing was just take a trip to yellow stone and go. I would adjust not in the summer because it's it's just crazy. I'd go in the winter. You can hire hire a wolf tour guide or you go on your own state hotel. But you got to get up before dark .

was that chemical mount lines crying, oh, wow.

And you go out down and dusk. In the winter time, there is you to seek as at the snow, and it's really fun depending on the season. If you go in the fall, they get bigger pack as a pups or hostile life.

We go in the winter, they get breeding behavior and stuff going on. And there's always something to see. Just I I go there myself, but I know a lot of the old forest.

I just drive the roads till I see people pulled over and I get out watch and they might be a mile away, they might be four hundred yards away. But bring scope and i'd suggest you just higher guide. Yeah, you'll see wolves .

here to hear ool. Yes.

I mean, it's amazing to hear them hauling.

One thing we did come across when I was hunting in bc, we're move hunting about ten years ago. So and we found A A cafe that had been killed and that was really interesting because, like, they had stripped IT down to the bone. And what was wild was all the hair. Who was hair everywhere? I like I, do you think that I can think you'll be here everywhere for some stupid reason?

How long ago they kill? That was anything .

was pretty recent. It's real recent like within the day. Yeah really and I know that my instagram, my friend who was up there.

I just ask barriers, the lines will pluck and to hear .

off with that area had a lot of walls and he was um he was very a custom defining a caves and they killed by we found IT because of birds. Birds were circling right? Like, let's go see .

what's over there yeah magpies and ravens are .

my best friends and looking for kills yes. And know so there's .

been stories are written. There's a guy who does a lot rave and studies name escapes.

And right now there, yeah.

he started some really interesting study to the events. And if you ever watched the videos of cross link puzzles and rains, oh my god, incredible. Right next life, I want to come back as a.

not only they saw puzzles, but they figure out how raise water levels so they get the food in a jar. Think about, they drop rocks into the jar until the water level raise us.

so they get the food is flow. The raven guy's name is burned, hence his erne is an berny with burn Brent and height. Yeah, anyway, it's cool stuff. I mean, this is, I mean, you and I are both obviously very interested in animals, hunter on food. But when i'm out hunting, I feel a little bit like a predator. Not not a lot because I got a gun but I watch the dogs who are basically predators yeah and I watch animals and landscape and I just you see so much when you know hunting and sure and what's the cool stand, al, you've ever seen when you've been out on the landscape, hiking, hunting or anything?

That mountain line that we saw bit in the coolest that was the coolest. But I saw badge. Er or once I I got film with that, I actually got the truck and got next to get close to him and then he start coming towards me. I really, I think what is drawn with me, I was still blond.

will very, it's .

really I I and not very big cool I am .

that I was I like.

was utah sing when in the wild i've seen, I saw one grisly and he did IT looked at me so much different than any bear i've ever looked at. I've hunted blackbear reform. I've been around black bear many, many times.

And this is the first crazy. And IT was so different the way that looked at me. Where was that? This was A B, C.

I know, excuse me, this was an Alberta, and this one was not a big one. He is about six feet tall, but he looked through me. He looked different, like A A blackberry.

Ry, like, how are you? What's this? What are you doing over there? Are you food? Are you gonna kill me.

What are we doing? Their little sketched out, because they're not the top of the food chain. The grazes are.

And so the grazy looked to me like this, like right at me. We had shot guns. We screamed out.

And yeah. And my friend jan SHE slammed a stick against the tree. I get out here, bear and clock the shotgun.

And the bear took off. But IT was the difference in looking in their face. IT just have a totally different look. They look at you like this, like, i'm gonna get you right now. It's just so a grizly has a hard life. It's not like that Brown bear that is all those sam and that sent by the river as grizly are out there like trying to arrive.

Yeah, I grassy in the rocky out and they're quite small compared to the coastal Brown bears. And the same species, yes, but they're very different in the path if to make a live in. I mean, if you have to make your living picking hockey berries, needing gut piles in the fall, it'd be scanning and they have to put away.

well, that me is so fascinating how animals, they change their behavior based on amount of resources are available and and whether or not they're safe, like the yellow elk that are habitable zed, that are just surround people hanging in out with them.

And bams, you have been to bams in the fall.

Hos the vehicle .

in meeting on the post office line.

It's smart for them though. Really no hunters, right? And people just pull over to pull their phones out and film. Yeah, I think that was.

I think i've heard of occasionally wolves ves find out the sneak in the town at night.

Well, when you tell on a story and steels podcast about a very nice neighborhood, avoid these nice homes. And these walls are .

decide to set up shop. Yes, IT was a close gated community between one fish and calisaya. They had their pops in this close gated community because there's no hunting. It's unlimited Green space and undeveloped force because people have mic matches and they have u jacket and it's just quiet time. There's not a safer place. And the people there like them because they had don't have livestock, they're using not honors, and there is great except then they grow up and they have to leave the world, you know, so then they get on the real world and then they get their rose .

is kicked yeah right? That's a problem because you like a wolf grown up in a gated community.

literally, and you've learn that people are OK.

You learn that people are okay, dear, everywhere, right? The deer know that people OK and the deer not used to walls being there.

right? It's really interesting. And that act didn't make IT. I'm not surprised, right? But I was just so interesting to me how adaptable wolves are.

You know, when I first started this business that come from minnesota, the wolves lived only in the northern third corner of the state. Word was bounded water, canute and really wild. Because any place sales, they get killed off.

So I always thought these world through denisse ons of the wilderness, and they would only live where IT was incredibly wild. And they come to show, is that not true? They will live whatever will tolerate them. And that could be IT mean, there were wolves in texas not that long ago, red bread wolves, so they were here. But you know, they're just not tolerated.

How much of a problem is that where they kill pets? The giant mountain line issue, especially in northern california, one place outside the same forces go, they did an analysis of the diet of mount lines that the captured and there was fifty percent pads s of course.

it's a by survey because it's by separate cisco. So it's not.

Yeah, but it's just fascinated they had actively chosen and the hunt pets if I was .

in online living your temperature, i'd be in poodles and jos and counts absolutely easy. Pray the lot of them. Yeah, nobody.

He's going to shoot you in california. legal. It's a term life until you get run over in the freeway. Well.

it's probably win the reasons why you don't hear about that texas because in texas they're like verman yeah you can shoot as many mount as you want. If you see a mount line, you shoot them just like a you just.

that's interesting.

I didn't know that thing.

It's amazing they still hanging in line.

There's the wolf. Oh yeah. How do you find a jammy? I found out that on the Greens episode.

you see the White.

White train.

You see the White train on the chess, yes, that indicates to mates the Younger wolf, because the pups can be born. Yeah, can you wind that back again? There are things.

So this is my friend cody. Film this off the highway or so he had a scope, you know, like, you know, sporting snow, yeah yeah and he put, amazing.

So the White chair on pops, Younger wolves have that. And as they get older, like the rest of us, they get gray and yet to doesn't stand out so much. So probably be a year thing.

maybe a two year old of interesting. So what their speculation is, you know, he works on rare. Their speculation is that someone released that and they think rogue wildlife lovers counter that these rog wildlife lovers are releasing wolves to try to force some sort of a reintroduction into central california.

I know for fact that there was a wild wolf that was track going down to central into Bakers. Still, I don't know this black or grey.

but I know there was one. So it's not, no.

it's not. My friend can't loud does the world fork california's biologist used to being montand I and they're making a comeback. I think there's six packs now .

and they're .

doing really well. California, yeah, and there's lots of conflict because they can't. They can't.

I'm pretty down. Sure they cannot kill. The wolves are killing life stock. So I set up for a conflict kind like in california. They're having some management flexible in california, I mean, in colorado.

But so far, I mean, they just know so a pair evolves that they introduced, found each other and made a pack. And they had the only litter of pups known to be in, in colorado this year. I believe both of those walls came from oregon, and they both had live start killing experience before they chose them to release, which is really unfortunate.

The dilema was okay. They did okay and told people started caving and all there's little cabs on the ground, and all the wolves are coming in and they're starting to kill cabs and then they might kill half er some in anyway. They're killing livestock. So what do you do? You got a male and female in a litter pops and they have started the history of killing livestock.

What do you do with them when the, the, the slight majority of people, colorado o is the balloon box and initiative stuff, want to see all who was protected in a slight minority, like forty nine and half to fifty and half or something, want them removed. And the people in the middle are trying to figure to do so. They wouldn't captured them and put them in a holding facility for a while. Then they're onna, release them later. Well, you still have a problem .

because they still are habitual.

They will probably probably likely to continue killing livestock.

It's hard to find the ranters reimbursing .

there are a in montana, as I presume there is in color, but they reivers. But as i've worked with ranchers and they said, I didn't raise my cows for your dam wolves to kill him. I don't care.

I don't want the money. I just don't want the wolves here. And and sometimes when you're working with, uh, renter community, that's the only common could nominate you have if you're out there because you don't want their car was killed because then moves.

How do you killed the author? Cows killed because they didn't they reason for all these generations, David, genetic good poll. Genetically, they are invested. So you have the same that's the same common goal. You might have different reasons to come to that goal, but that's how you work with people, you know, is there's always a common denominator. I was .

watching a documentary about this guy live with walls, lived with walls in some contained environment, and he would, like, set up a fake kill where he would eat the liver so he could be like the dominant bill, and he would grow at them. IT was really study. Yeah, you're right.

I'm with you. Anyway, this gentlemen who is a wolf expert was then uh, recruit to try to help uh a sheep der with wolves that had moved in to take his flock. And one of the strategies they used is giant speakers.

So they took speakers and they played sounds of wolves to scare off these other walls. And so then he goes back to the pack and tries to be the alpha again and the corner and snarl adam. And he had a whipper and and he had to. It's a very weird documentary because this is some sort of a strange fencin environment they've created with these wolves are living.

Sounds a bit like Timothy tread. Well.

good the same. Very, very, very soon. Yeah, yeah. That I think that that that's from the movie, the hero from the man I think .

was amazing.

amazing movie and an unintentional comedy maybe intentional I think was a little bit international because there's there's a few cuts in there really like that. He had to know that was funny. And I think that was suicide by bear. Yeah and so I think and the girlfriend, yeah, I think that guy and the girlfriend, unfortunately, but I think that guy wanted to die and think he wanted to die that way. He had to know.

But what else says? Captive wall facilities. And I going to, many people have love their captive wolfs, but captive animal behavior and wild d wolf behavior have some parallels, but they're not the same. Yeah and that guy doing this thing with would never happen with while wolves.

right? impossible. No, they would never tory that. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a weird, best artizan of reality.

yeah. And many, many people, I did part of my career helping to try and keep wolves out of livestock. And we put out, we put out sides, and we put out blinking light and and but raw cow hide patches and raw hamburger, and lasted IT with lithium chloride, which is a talks.

And that makes you violent, ill right away. It's not gonna kill you. The idea being these wolves would eat the bates wrapped ed with string and taste dollars, wonderful beef burger and taste the hide and then associate that bad experience of violence.

You're guts out for twenty four hours or whatever to the animal on the hook. Alt, there is a great idea for how your human brain works. They didn't. They just say, every bit we put out there poles of you game, they would think like.

we think right, of course.

right. And one guy ranch was working with, we were put on the bates, whatever I hope they did the sirens, and I did what's called flattery and flattery ies. And they used IT in europe, in places like polling, to hunt walls.

Were you hanging streamers down from fences? And you start out with a really wide fund in the woods. And the hunters used to drive the wolves through the forest with people at, again, with guns, and they would see the flat, dry and IT would be quite a ways apart, like a milor two or something.

And they wouldn't cross the flatter because IT scared them and they get to the end. And it's like shoot and fessing at the end corn field. So people have taken that idea to try and keep wolves out of like cabin pants in specific areas where the live duck are confined.

IT doesn't workout when they are in free range, and IT worked pretty well. So as I working with this past year guy in northern minnesota at a long, skinny pasture, and I had out got highway blinking lights that came on at night in the flag, and he was so kind, let me, this is lot of years ago. He is this Young story, I thinks I stopped into visit him and I said, why I know you had, you had a, you had a loss, got a cap.

Is that have any? The walls been back, and he looked at me. He just, well, no time they haven't been back, he says, I said, do you think the blinking lights are working on your well, I don't know, but I dam had a plane land here last night.

I broke up laughing. He broke up laughing and was just like, yeah, this is a tough job. This just have some fun here .

so that's a arias but again.

he didn't like wolves. I don't want him killing cause. And that was a common factor to try. What are the cause .

when there's prose cons for reintroduction of walls? What do you think the cons are of the really like the real deduction called the reduction yellowstone.

uh, I believe a potentially a decreased human tolerance. And the wolves don't have a learning curve. They're taken from one place and then boot they are, pop their verses.

If they kind of migrate, they were down. They run this god let they kind of have to learn on the way to be successful. To get there.

They have to learn to avoid livestock, pens or whatever. They have to learn and stay a little more of secretive. So that's just my belief that when they are make IT on their own, they've been smart enough to get there awards. When you just put them there, you're gona forever have people believing that they don't blog. They're not native.

So the problem is in the perceptions of the people that are encountering the wolves, are they impacted by the wolf's being there?

I believe so yeah. And so for example, now we've got wolves in the they were put into a total of sixty six wolves put into idaho and whelming, and the other ten rounded whelming from montana bit. It's a very small number wolves.

But now walls have taken over washington, oregon, california. They've made a few minutes to color. So they are trying to get me, otoh, you've been shot there and all those wolves came from this introduced population, some for montana, but they'll never be considered red native.

which is crazy because they used to be native.

And the wolf s that were taken for the sources, like I explained earlier, they're taken from an area that wolves from glaser park walk to. They are one population, but there's a relief socially because they were put there. They're not made of their canadian super valves.

And I heard the crazy stories like these wolves, one hundred and seventy five pounds, and they were selected out of all the wolves captured. They took the ones that were the most aggressive so that when they put them on the ground they would survive. Everything is like, oh my god, north.

that sounds ridiculous. But that is kind of crazy to me that if you wanted a wolf reintroduction to be successful, why would you take amals that have a history, predation on cattle and livestock, and use those as the reintroduction walls?

I think that kind of mindset, or that ignorance, whether it's wilful ignorance or ether, it's on purpose, whether there is a fuck you to the ranchers, whatever IT is, that is why people have this negative perception. I think you are looting to, right? And I don't think.

I don't think IT was enough you to the renters. I think what happened was because of the ballot box initiative. The state colorado o was required by law by december thirty first of twenty twenty three to get ten walls or sell on the ground. And I took a lot if they weren't successful.

but they required by lot if someone go to jail, if you're not successful. And capturing the wolves to put there.

I don't know. But what i've seen is they had a pretty limited time. They spend a lot of time trying to prep people in doing committees and working with people to get them prepared.

And they by the time they were able to get everything in place, they were running against the water. Introduce es. Will was very late in the air.

I think that was december. And the only place they could gets source wolves, they gotten from organ. And that point organ game, ten wolves, half of them, roughly half of them happen, half some livestock experiences, if they. So this time right now, they're already gearing up for the next to introduction this winter. Probably they're working with british club by, I believe, and they going to take wolves presently that have not had livestock experience and let them go like they did with the original introductions in the ello.

Dona, I know, and I really believe, because of the political pressure to squeeze into a short timeline, that the people who are really pro wolf IT was forced that they were had to take the walls that they got. That's what I believe. I don't think IT was in a few. I think IT was unintentional. But like these are the walls, these are the of you're .

going to get and they took up that sounds so short sited.

Well, I know, but i'm not there and not i'm not turning a bad mouth. Their effort, they're under a lot of pressure. How the state wants wolves half doesn't they're under a short timeline organ was the only state that offered of the wolf's wilmers said no montana said no everybody said no arguments. You can have ten of us. Here's the ten.

You're onna get yeah I I could see why they did IT that way but boy, that seems like you're just adding to the problems really .

does in hind site that does yeah and yeah.

So what are the positives about the reintroduction of wolves?

So is IT has been .

successful in colorado .

general in general because .

the color to one just this year.

time frames, all this that has to do with the time frame, the mistakes and the rewards. So the positive, most positive prose of introductions is to speed up the time frame. So like if we had let wolves slowly wander down from canada and eventually get the other stone, IT may have taken ten years.

IT may have taken fifty. I mean, IT happened in montana pretty quickly once to hit critical mass, but IT took him a few years to get there. And then they just started, you know, the curve, but people then want the time window.

And we had a presidential administration that was in favourite, we had conservative congresswomen that in favorite, you had the wolf groupies in favor of IT. And its was like, all came together in the time frame, in the window of opportunity opened about four inches and they shoved them through. And colorado Mandates by citizens spell initiatives, which is not a really great way to, I don't think, to do business on any will mean we have built in montana command now for voting.

But the timing was short. And I think if they had more options, they would have taken waves. They would have taken wolves from my omelet or montana for sure, because they're more wild, whatever we do have depredating wolves, but they kind of got down to the wire and everybody denied them, except for organ. So that's that's what happened.

Well, the problem is that, of course, is what we're talking about with epidemiology, that these animals do have a learned behavior pattern that's gonna imparted on their offspring as well. And the surrounding community, they can know favorite that because it's A A very simple way to get food, pretty simple.

And the other hand, they can loan new behavior like the wolves that were taken for the inter docking dialstone. They never seen a bison, most of them, and they've learned now. And yellow stone lot of the animals, the killer bicton. Yeah, it's really, it's my body, me to see I heard surround a bison and eventually were IT down or kill IT or fine when that's injured.

There's an amazing painting that I precious anna told me about. He might have even have a copy of IT of or was IT remi might reme? No, he was remey because remi actually he um reproduce this on his television show. He had a show called apex predator and the show apex predit was all like examining the behavior characteristics s of apex predators and see what they did.

One of things that some of the native american tribes used to do, they would take a wolf skin, and they would wear IT, put IT on their head, and they would crawl on two leg or on four legs, you know, hands and knees up and to bison. yes. yeah. one.

So that I missed that my own slide .

show is amazing, paying so incredible. And so they would wander up towards dicing, as is full grown vicente, afraid of a couple of wolves, and they would use that as a way to get close enough like a decoy and sneak up. And Aaron, these dicing and killum, yep, there's a lot of painting of that.

That's cool. So that must have been a very common thing. Will so remi actually reproduce this on a television show? He actually wore A A wolf skin and crawled .

up to .

his biceps. Yeah, yeah. where? I don't know. I don't know when he was. I'm not sure you can find remimbered apex predator .

bicton .

episodic .

W I know how to do.

He shot one. Yeah.

with a narrow.

Yeah.

with a narrow. Really, really.

wow. Well, do you imagine, especially if you have a compound bow. You know, I was just shooting today, very accurate.

I got a new hot bow. It's amazing. So I don't know how they do, but they keep making these compound boats Better every year. But there's no one's incredible.

And where shouldn't shouting super accurate up to sixty years? Oh, my g so you you know a guy as good as rem as a literally professional hunter and you crawl close enough to bye to get them yeah so he shot a buy and wow. yeah.

But I mean, indian stood that all the time. I didn't say indian.

native americans. Well, yeah they some of them prefer to be called indians.

I know in montana yeah .

tRicky if yeah you got a kind of like ask them, you know what what .

are you so um .

I know that there's wild bison that live in mexico. And um I know that from Steve, Steve now actually hunted them in in mexico. And um yeah and this traditional ranch have this incredible way of taking care of that because they've never had electricity in this area.

It's like this so that this long history of hundreds years of hundred in this way so they do all these different things to dry out the meat, and they make these like thin cuts of meat and hang them from sticks and drive them in the sun and smoke them, and do all kinds of different things to the meat. Really interesting. But this was one of the last when they were all wiped out from, or almost wiped out from north america.

A few of them survived in mexico. The so did in mexico. interesting.

I was A K, O, O, K. So, but I was in mexico. So he put the pt.

Down and did the whole deal. Yeah, so ted, into his camel. Yeah.

it's a big guy, but it's definitely dio .

that interesting? No, yeah.

wow.

Crazy that IT worked.

Yeah, americans knew IT well for sure.

A buffalo or a bicton is not going to be scared of a cao. no. Yeah, not at all. So if they see that, like.

and wolves two for that matter, I mean, there were millions of Victor, the player, paris, with tens of thousands of wolves. And right, if you are healthy, are you protect your caf?

You're fine. yes. yeah. Have you ever read coyote america? No, dan floris, who was a yeah and he was one of analysis professors wow yeah, that's I meet up wow. But dan has a very interesting theory about the population of bicton and why there were so many. And he thinks it's tied into the plague into when europeans came across the country and ninety percent of native americans were wiped out because of disease ah and he thinks that's why there were millions of dicon in the field is over population to buy because the predators .

had gone away really yes.

I think the the papers called vicinity plommer y so interesting. Yes, in the book coyote amErica is crazy. So good.

Yeah, there IT is okay. It's vicot gy. And vacant diplomacy, the southern planes from eighteen hundred to eighteen fifty.

So his theory, which I think is a very valid one and IT should be researched, IT should be at least considered that the reason why the early native settlers, excuse me, the early european settlers did not see enormous herds of bison is because the bacon, and warn enormous herds back down, because bicentenary, a long gestation period, they're fairly easy to hunt, because they are very large animals first. yeah. And if you have horse back, you can get very close to them shooting with arrows.

And they were very effective at hunting them. And particular community lived entirely of a bicton, and they were right here. So right here in this area, there are just nothing but bice and eating bice and constantly.

And so they probably did a really good job of keeping the population and check then a long come europeans in their dirty diseases. And you know, this is what the the primary theory that wiped out the mia, wiped out the attack, wiped out the people who lived in um the amazon jungle. It's all european and settlers and their dirty diseases. And so that when that happened, then you have what's similar to no wolves in montana and you have twenty thousand eleven in a place that really as a caring capacity for like what six or what you think was like the correct number when there was .

twenty thousand l .

number of what would be like a healthy population, the food sources could .

I would say right now there's about sixty five hundred I think um elk in the northern herd we're not talking all of astonishes is heard. It's been studied where the olds are. That's for that now it's day alizad. There's lions and people outside the park and and wolves and bears s all these things and that towards that and that's with everything.

And IT doesn't change because the number wolves two went from, you know zero to thirty five, thirty one to one hundred and sixty hundred sixty five in the last ten years has been right about one hundred wolves every year because they contain themselves by killing each other and defending the research. So they're devil. Right now. The world are not .

increasing and is not one of the main reasons how they die. Or many ways they die, killing each other.

killing each other. And trust pass and people go. That's awful. And I said, not really. I mean, if you had somebody coming in your home to steal your goods, when you shoot them, if you have the chance.

or when you spend you those shoot to defend your home.

right yourself, your family, the wolves do the same thing. And sort of like what's going on with the wars and everywhere in the world the do the same. And they don't always kill the the trust passers.

If they can catch them, they beat them up pretty bad. Sometimes they kill them. Sometimes you may have a benefon pack leader that just kind of has the wolves chase IT off, but wolf mortality the greater. I think it's like seventy plus percent seventy five is wolves killing other wolves in elliston park.

This pack members is their action dependent upon the amount of resources that are available? Like would they be more reluctant to kill a wolf if there was plenty of food for everybody? Just get out of here, whether if they were struggling, you'd go. This is a real problem having this world around.

So you'd have to go to the elliston researchers to look at IT. But I would say genetic relations, if it's closely related, they are likely to not kill IT. And if there's abundant food, they'd be more likely to probably not kill IT. I think it's a combination of the two.

One of the things that down florida talks about coyote amErica is the expansion of of coyotes, and that the reason this took place is that coyotes were targeted by great walls. yes. So they had developed this ability to recognize when one of the pack had been killed, they would expand their territory, and the female would have more pops the .

world through the wolf, the yos.

the walls are killing the coyotes. This is why the coyotes, and literally every state in every city in north amErica now, yes, where there wasn't one hundred years ago, is that because they have this history being persecuted by the wolves, because they don't breed with wolves, but they do break with red wolf. So where you get your ky wall or your coy wolf is a coyote and a red wolf on the east coast, right? Mexico, do they do with .

maxi animal up in the northeast? And part of the U. S. Is called a coy wolf h and it's a kyo te mixed with wolf of unknown origin mixed with dogs.

And there's lots of theories out there and i'm not up on the most current theory. The original will pop. There was more like the red wall. Then you get down here and down in Louisiana and texas for a there truly red, there were redwoods and now they're just at the allegation, or refuge in north Carina. But those are being bad out of, almost out of existance.

because hybrid, all not hybridizing of chaos, was this point.

And that this not hardly ever, sometimes well up the the great lakes, if you look at those wolves, that so we start to waves, they look a little bit like coyote in the metal contro. DNA shows some traces of coyote. But it's very uncommon when when a wolf counters, they go out.

they kill IT yeah was interesting you were talking about analyse show that they don't .

kill foxes so they were, I mean to get a fox like ten pounds. Do you get a cout like thirty pounds? So you get a wolf its in ninety two hundred pounds, about three times between each step.

So the ones that are closest. So for coyotes, the foxes are a threat, they kill them. For the wolves, the kyoto a threat and they kill them. But one hundred people off in a time. Part fact that might be a noises you garage, but it's .

not a threat to you at right.

So when wolves come back on the landscape that happened up, where we are, happened in your stone, where it's just been a coyote conomo first since the wolves, we're taken on chaos rule, right? I love kiote too, but you can say, love, I really respect them. But when you have the wolf's coming back and they start displacing and killing and hammering on the riots, well, surprise I was said red fox are coming back.

And like where I work in the north fork, I was early winter. We had people all winter on skis, tracking wolves. We never SUV attract, uh, fox tracks, never and and I never caught one in a wolf trap. And then as time on on, and the wolves took a foot, so to speak, a told in the country, and they start hammer .

in the cover .

big time, and they considered .

them competitors.

sure. I mean.

what they eat them?

I don't you know what, I haven't followed that. I don't to track that, that closely. But I would guess most of the time, not unless incredibly angry, I would guess it's a liberating a competitor situation i've seen.

I mean, you can look at the data else. They have witnessed ons of times of wolf's going up to kyte dens and dig and out on killing all the pops and trying to kill appearances. And I don't think they usually eat them. I I could be wrong and but I don't think it's interesting .

because that's one of the theories about why I was originally one of the theories why coyotes killed dogs and coyotes kill cats is that they are competitors, but then they started eating them. So I think maybe originally that was the case because again, the expansion into urban areas is .

fairly recent yeah and urban urban chaos are not .

railway IT whatever yet behavior changes yeah and .

it's really interesting to me how how amazingly visual toyotas are because I am starting to see wolves being the same, that they're much more generous than I would have thought and that they can adapt the situations pretty easily. Like the world of packaging. It's pups in this subdivision. crazy.

IT is crazy. That would be so cool, though. I imagine if you live there, I know why you have a pootle, right?

They do IT dogs. They do IT dogs when every time I got to my little cabin and I am very conscious about not leaving my dogs outside without me there. Yeah, I did have a big melamine killed by model line about thirty five years ago.

It's a big dog. Yes, they like, yeah. And you know, what's .

interesting to me is the propensity that foxes have to befriend humans. Yes, very strange. So.

so this is interesting. I mean, know you are a vacuous reader. Obviously.

if you've never heard of .

the study in russia now, this is I one of the most interesting books you've ever read. But this is true. I'm not saying that the four hundred waves is not true, but I, but this is your science, supported by photos, that in the fifties or so, this russian scientist was starting a study of foxes, and he wanted to select simply for tame ess.

And by selecting the taus male, female from these different fur farms, these are captive fox. To start with, that he would see if if they are morpho gy, or their physical appearance changed. So he went to fur farms, and he was picking just for tameless.

And eventually, after many years, he go to the first farm in this fox ed lung. And and, and I leave IT, and they say all this one over her in the corner, SHE rabbits against the fast. When you go to fear, you take out, but over years, they are photographs of these foxes, and they start changing.

They were silver fox, a lot of instead read, and their, they're black and White. They kind of look like border colleagues. And they started and tipped over, yeah. And they get pictures of the guys in the pens one person spent over. There's a fox standing on their back while they are putting out the football and other I mean.

crazy.

And so that was in a very short time that they change the the behave the picture or .

you're leaving out a little bit of IT. One of things that they did was whenever any the foxes exhibit any kind of aggression, they shot him. So they only. The very docile, submissive foxes to friendly, but then their eyes started getting larger. The now started to getting shorter.

And really, I suggested to do friends because i'm passionate about all, all things wit honey. I was one of the most amazing pieces I read, because if you think about humans, domesticating animals, we took some kind of a primitive form of a horse in a colony shape. And we ve got our breeds now for years.

They had beards in captivity, Brown bears in europe, forever living in king's castles in doing writing, the spicy cle in the circus, in whatever bit in terms in north america, of course, we meter that anywhere in the world. Nobody's domesticated the african wild hunting dog. Nobody y's domesticated european links.

Nobody is successfully taken a wild predator. And bread IT long enough with heavy artificial pressure by our selection, like shooting in the head of the aren't friendly, right? And turn IT in no different animal. What's the exception evolves.

That is really fast. It's really fast because I never been done to tigers or mountain lines. Think about how many people have tried to keep mount lines as pet.

I know, or coyotes. Yeah, coyotes. And after fifteen generations, they still look like coyotes.

and they still behave like you.

They in little thing with the fur fox IT was extraordinary artificial selection pressure to see the, yes, and they did change a bit.

But the fox has a very strange relationship to humans, where that was part of the timidity treat bold movie in in the movie, he had this fox that was his friend, and the fox stores hat one day and ran to the day with his hat. And give me my hat back and is like chasing but it's an adorable relationship this fox has with people with with him in, in fact, climbing on his tent and hanging out with him and he could touch IT. He could pet its head and sure.

he probably can hear somebody before him and probably food conditioned .

to be accepting. But you're talking about he's up in the grazy maze .

in the last maybe just never .

seen a human maybe that's more IT seems, but there seems to be some sort of a strange history of comfort where this animal, that's a ten pound animal, is comfortable, around one hundred fifty pound man, for no real reason, like he's not given IT anything like just him being around and that he would lie down in front of women and sun itself and and play around him. There was a weird relationship that humans about what fox.

mister tredwell, was not really in the bell curve on the big high point in the Normal range, either of a Normal behavior.

right? But i've had friends encounter fox.

They are they're really unique and they're also they really adapt with all the people they live in agricultural areas. I'm going then, I mean, we see him all the time. Now, there are different animals than a guitar well.

says, was such a strange little fellow. Yeah, that wants to be your friend. You very interesting. You don't. Now you don't.

I have fox that visits my yard because I have chickens, and we have to shoot him out every time he comes into the yard. But they make the crazy st. Noise they do like.

I didn't know about the noise to my friend jibu, who a has fox near his house and new jersey. They make this crazy scream and like, what? What does this sound like? And then this little guy that lives in my neighborhood does IT in my yard. I got a video of him in my yard. Yeah, crazy.

I've heard that is. So what is kind of interesting to think about the early relation of people with wolves? I talk about that in a roban among wolves. My book is there was a couple of pale into logic of social gist that speculated and I can't say if they're theories correcter not but um base speculated that when people were still living in gabs and having space, not to said they would watch, so people were living in a family group in a pack, the wolves were living in a family group or pack.

They would watch the walls chasing through a heard of whatever animal they were at that time, depending on where they lived, and eventually getting one tired enough, or may be be was a cripple, had a bad line, and they would surrounded IT and eventually kill IT. And then they speculate that the the humans would learn that you know what we could go to, that killed oracle or whatever they are just killed primitive hce. As they start those wolves away, we get tools.

We can kill the wolves if we have to. So they so then had changed where maybe those wolves had come around when the animal was cornered, but not not dead, and the humans would come in and do the final blows and drive the wolves away and take what meat they wanted and then leave. And the wolves could then committing, get the spools about all the work that they had done, that the humans had taken, and that there, this is their theory, that there is this relationship just because it's a brutal world, not synergy and not altruistic and not cute, just like, hey, people look at those wolves.

Got a at the animal, a crammer coronado over alya kill and take what we need. Wolves are coming, and that that sort of began potentially the process of wolves and people beginning to interact. I hate the hesitation would collaborate, but right?

This is an idea. IT is an interesting idea. Also, the interesting idea sort of coincides of the idea of the introduction of agriculture. So you have introduction of agriculture, so you have resources that are more abundant and you have more animals. And so if these people lived in a resource rich environment where there was plenty of meat, and they didn't after, you could see how maybe they would throw some scraps at a cute little near the fire.

There is many ideas about how the right, the ones who released, afraid, hungry, right?

what? What the fox is over just the course of a few generations. This took a few thousand years.

Grab one of those wolves, or let them hang around and then you know, around they would clean up the awful of all around the camp and whatever. There's many ideas, of course nobody knows, but what is kind of known as the dates from DNA and and carbon dating, the dates at which humans were able to domesticate livestock, and the dates at which humans were able to domesticate dogs from wolves and domesticating dogs preceded livestock. Livestock was, like eleven thousand years ago, roughly in all all species, swine, horses.

cows, whatever, and shape. So was impossible that the initial domestication of walls into dogs took place in in an a very game. Rich, I didn't have five resource .

and no livestock. No, exactly because IT hadn't happened yet, right? So there would be more opportunity potentially for these animals.

Again, i'm not saying IT was to help each other so much, but they took advantage of each other. Strength and weaknesses. The wolf strength was being, well, han rung something down. It's also tired that people didn't do that. And then people say, oh ah that things cripple over this could kill IT and we will get our meat and the .

world can the rest was there also a consideration that during these times this was a hunter gathering time where they really didn't have a preservation of meat. There was no way to store IT. So you had to continue to hunt, gather. So if you had an abundance, yes, you didn't think of all stockpiled this for the next few months. That was never even .

though probably not unless that was in the thunder winter red for the relationship of mean, there's many dates had said about one people domesticated dogs and IT varies a lot. But I think there's some consensus thirty, thirty five thousand years ago was that long, long ago that and you can you can google change.

But ten thousand?

No, because IT happens significantly before we began domesticating livestocks. So what i'm saying is there wasn't a conflict base. Resources were abundant. There wasn't protection of our livestock. There wasn't this in that, and eventually people took when livestock became A A thing that eventually people would take a wolf flight can at a dog that we domesticated. And then I find IT in to train IT, to keep the wolves, the wild cousins, away from the livestock.

Talk about.

wow.

crazy. Yeah.

humans are so creative with what they can do, and dogs are so plastic. I mean, you take a wolf and you put out a process on IT, and eventually you come up with a goldin new driver in a griffe in a poor because they have a lot of domestic, they have a lot of plastics, genetically more phlogistic behaviorally that I don't think a lot of the other species ever would show up when you try to domesticate.

This is my theory. IT seems to uniquely adaptive. Yeah, totally.

Have you? Are you ware of the balloons that raise dogs? No, yeah, there's bad boons that take puppies and they use the puppies as guards so they keep the puppies near them and they keep these dogs near them. They don't kill them and the dogs like allow them to uh, sleep so they could be alerted to any intruders. The .

dog's .

bark saving, you find IT balloons with these dogs like dry the dogs like, what do I do and the like here. They don't kill IT dam ruthless.

I've been africa and I don't like the .

scary animal because this seems like a dog, monkey like it's got a face. Like a dog is a weird animal, right? Because unlike any other primate, they have a completely different jaw structure, their teeth, yeah, they look like a dog. It's like an extended now, very strange animal.

Yes.

I find colorful and beautiful and scraping and of these things .

things I agree.

I so here. So these are dogs that are being raised. They raised his father. Docs drag in the dog, dog like they're not very kind. So I was trying to read on what was going on.

So some people think that that might not be they might not be being raised, that is some sort of play. But there are, I think this is taken from a trash pit. But did you see that other .

larger dog that was over there controlling .

IT to control IT?

So I is about processing data.

Processing data just like our dogs, they hold on about the tail is kind of crazy. And a drag around, if you back IT up, there was a larger dog background, the barking. So I think the theory that I remember reading was that they had figured out that if they keep these dogs around, the dogs are good. Watch dogs.

Well, i'm going have to google that and look up to see this. My first thing, i'm a researchers like, I want to know the source.

I want to know what I came from the a viral video baboons and stable garbage to play to speculation baLance kinda always keep the pets. However, some say the violins were likely just playing with the puppies. The relationship is not analogous to pet owner relationship. Maybe um they're been a lot there's lot of weird studies on garbage dumps and baLance. If you ever red supportive work.

no, I am robber.

A key a did this study on a particularly vicious primate.

what was a bulky, wrote twenty years ago, something prime? Now i've read a long ago book I haven't .

read currently, I don't remember, but the study that was fascinating was they found that there was one contaminated pile of garbage. And of course, the most vicious Alice were the ones to eat first. So they died and they got sick. That's the one of primates member.

It's two thousand, two, seven, twenty years ago.

He's amazing I have .

on the park that was a fascinating .

book to look at the sting guy ex moses gandhi. A discussion like to talk .

about with the lines and the sites do you know about lines involves and toxic place most.

So in your stone.

it's it's basically a doggy cat world down there, for the most part as a pax I wolves in the lions. But they have found that because the dogs are coexisting with the lions and sometimes in just the scatter, they are god there anyway. They eat some part of that.

They get exposed, they have found with now the wolves have toxoplasmosis. And what what happens is there is something like eleven times is a huge mine. I wish I can, maybe Jamie google more likely to be extraordinary leaders of a pack than a dog than a, it's not a toxics mosses and these, these wolves that have the parasite take extraordinary risks and are more likely to die and lead the pack to death. So in the long run, IT sort of a cats revenge on the wall.

Well, one of things support forty six more times likely to become public leaders. Incredible isn't that wild. There are eleven times more likely leave their birth packs and do so Younger.

And when they do that, they're not very well set up to survive.

So pasty found out when he's doing his resident that the there's a disproportion amount of motorcycle victims that a test positive for taxi. So they test them and they find that this is one of the reasons why these guys are taking .

these crazy risk, risk takers. X, and it's it's really ATS know. Another book you would like to read is called a spill over. Have you read that by David on?

No, I have IT.

So he wrote, and I think two thousand and seventeen is an older book, maybe two thousand and twelve. And he wrote, it's a spillover from wild animals, this Q U A M A ion wild animals, to human populations. And IT starts with a horse disease in australia that becomes some extremely viral, terrible disease in humans.

And he actually traces back the origins of H. I V. And all this happened before IT, and IT just was so set up, because cover IT is the same kind, kind deal. But it's a fascinating book because you got to have a mind. I think you'd really enjoy IT.

Well, cover is not really because cove IT was a part of like a lab experiment.

Some people don't know and .

they're ninety nine percent sure. Now this point that IT was OK that was all gained of functional research that was done, there's the obscurity of the data was done purposely to try to absolve guilt from the people that funded the project because the project was funded and cancelled during the obama administration.

And then when trump came along, there was a lot of chaya's, apparently, and they reignited IT, and they did IT through another equal health of lines. There was a very sneaky about IT when grilled day, you know, foul. You lied about whether or not I was being of function research they were doing in the first place. There's a lot of very sk, there's emails back. And for that's .

beside the point because .

because spill .

over in documents many, many species. And actually it's fascinating. Mad cause .

disease. IT is the same thing. And cows to eat, cows do. And then the ponts, the fact that they can exist under thousands of thousands of degrees. You can't kill IT.

So do F, C, W.

D here yet in text. I'm sure they do. I'm do.

It's not ebit. Us, I think there happened. See if you has been cases. W, D, and I want to get to this before I forget.

So the point of the super sty thing was that what's a post key? observe? When the super aggressive baboons, eight, all of the, uh, garbage that the garbage was contaminated, they died.

So all the aggressive ones died and they turned into the utopian society. So, yes, and so they're all, they started grooming each other more. The males were in aggressive anymore.

The females didn't suffer the wrath of the males, and they were like hippy baboons. And IT lasted for a long time. And I think they are eventually reverted back to the same sort of typical aggressive alf male behavior is being the the primary leaders of the groups. But for a long time they exist in this very strange ow a typical environment where kind babylons or like taking care each other.

Well, it'll be really interesting with with the resources of the ello stone researchers to do amazing stuff to see what the long range outcome is from this realization that you know they're forty six more times, likely more times, to be a leader of the pat. And what do these risk taking behaviors and tail? I am really excited to fall course.

many of them unfortunate to hit by cars because of this. And wasn't the first ever released mount line or a wall for other that got killed, killed by a car?

The first one I understand, the first one in yellows stone released of the first mortality of a wolf was get hit by A U. P, R. Or I just feel kind of bad for the driver. I .

shouldn't laugh. I mean, there's a dead of what you couldn't hit our brakes.

I know, I know.

Yeah, it's horrible anyway, but it's it's so fascinating that this talk applies most is that I could can implode the population, who knows? They might make terrible decisions. How well is I .

is usually .

prevalent in france. At one point time, there was fifty percent of the population I talk. So really, yeah, in large populations of people in a both that amErica south amErica places where there's lot of ferial cats yeah there's a huge instance of IT.

Not only that, there's a disproportionate amount of people that have toxic plus mosses or in countries that have toxoplasmosis that have successful soccer teams. And they don't know if it's just because a lot of poor people, that's the best way out, become really good at soccer. Soccer really common because everybody plays IT you they don't know. But I might be that IT makes you more aggressive IT makes you more of your more interesting taking risks and little reckless. And if you're a socket play, I can probably help you and to be like, I just go for and get crazy, be more aggressive .

and less tentative, right? right? It's crazy. The whole face between humans and wildlife is becoming a more and more popular field. If I was Young and can do my current over, I wouldn't I wouldn't go into that because it's really crazy the cdd so that when wolves um encountered first encounter parvo virus is temper from came from people's gs going into parks and camping and dogs pooping in the disease came into being in the in the eighties but we started documenting IT in galatia in the first year that was catching involves and we took blood samples that the the they're off the chart in their immune sponge anybody's to that particular disease and we had most of our pups all die that year boom like that and people don't think about yeah I got my little dogs and up like any pops and you don't pick IT up and they get IT but the same thing happened in yellow stone and they have certain um years where they have horrible pop survivals called recruitment. They don't make IT into the fall.

But the other thing of interest so uh they've been learning by studying coat colors of wolves in your liston, the genetically the ones who Carried the gene for the black coat color, they have a different disease resistance to those diseases than the grave. And IT certain, maybe jami could looked that up. At certain times when the disease problems is higher, the wolf was select a mate of a certain color because they're genetics prove to be an asset to the survival of those pops. Do crazy.

Do the ones with the darker coats? Do they are? Do they originate from denser forests?

So this, they also been looking at that. So when I and many of the wolves were black, and now it's probably fifty, fifty years less in the minnesotan, the original western wolves were great. And now there's ve got black color genes, and there are changes with a popular density.

But what I learned from my best knowledge, it's a it's A K locus gene. And they think that when people domesticated dogs from wolves and we took the wolf of in captivity, we muted their mutations that we helped survive. That gene for black color code was from dogs, and then dogs got bread a little bit into the wolves.

Occasionally, in that coat is from a dog. And doesn't mean that the animals author that are black are hybrids. I'm just saying that goes back the essence of years.

So the earliest descriptions of wolves, did they describe them? Like, what is the earliest known like written human history of wars? Did they describe them in a particular color?

Oh boy, you know what? I ve been gone. That man, if you look at rym, lous and rumours, those are great walls in form, right? I don't know. You know, i'm not i'm not appealing to logic.

The thought I was just getting to like if you're thinking about a place like the pacific northwest, for example, we have dense in forest IT would probably be A A benefit to .

be darker. You can hide idea .

like having articles. Yes.

the k locus for the black color gene and IT depends if the homeless egor had roeg, as in one is here ago.

when the earliest written references to black wolves occurs in the baboon epic. O oh, it's in gilgameshers so that a six thousand years ago, uh, the titular character rejects the sexual advances of the goddess, each star reminding her that he had transformed a previous lover, a shepard, into a wolf, thus turning him into the very animal that his flocks must be protected against. Wow, heavy. I want to know what the road that story is. Yeah um so that's so fascinating.

yeah. This will be .

a disease outbreak. Select for made choice and cocoa. N well, so all dogs come from wolves. So you have wolves get domesticated in the dogs and some dogs to reintroduce their genes into interpreting with wolves. And somehow another is black coat color comes into wild IT is literally.

and I I suspect from people living in northin attitudes innuits in the nate americans throughout russia and across the north, you know, they they kept dogs doing, and they break them into wolves and make Better slide dogs. But an early reference told me that the native, the dog native to north amErica was brought over here. There wasn't. The native americans didn't have dogs here thousands and thousands of years .

ago that to him in raining one of things that I .

learned .

from um barba eupeptic ah that's so crazy that's that's one of things um that um dam floors were talking about was that horses came from here but then they were all they'll yes and they don't know exactly why but probably during that mass extinction event where sixty five percent of all the microphone a dot ah and then the european and reintroduced horses and so the native americans initially didn't nave horses, and some were really good at IT. And those the ones that thrive like the community.

the spaniards brought horses in those in fifty hundred years, and that's how they got the horses.

But before the horses came from here, originally, even the horn africa, even zebras originated, genetically originated in the north american continent. I didn't was like, what the hell? I didn't know that. No, it's crazy.

Zebra too. Yeah, zebra.

how nice.

That is not.

But we also have an animal, the pronghorn animal. Yes, that is a Price stack animal.

It's only here.

IT should not be here. And the only reason why is here, and the reason why it's so fast, something about the gets really deep code s and codes have something to do with them .

having kine une more immune repeal infections. So anyway, yeah and then the other things.

which they probably from dogs.

yes.

problem or yes.

well, I don't know how long temper goes back thing with a the prom guard. I mean, I just came from honey. Well, I mean, honey birds. We were seeing prong and everywhere and all yeah, I love them, but they are really great. And you know.

you know why they are in the north?

Cheer, cheer exactly. yeah. The cheers whittled. The limbs of the animal is IT. Was that? Yeah.

that's why there so fast, there so much faster than any .

preda in north america. And that was not there and they're still .

here and the cheese are gone. But there are one of the very few of those weird animals like the north american lion. Like all is different. Like there is a north american line is way bike than the african line.

I've read that. I mean, I mean, I would love the pale loge. There's so many things I would like to do again and do over.

There's a lot of interesting things in this world, and we're still just learning.

We still have to listen that people expert to do lot of reading and think for ourselves.

well, thanks. You know a lot more about walls. And so I really appreciate being here.

The book is a woman among the wolves, my journey through forty years of war recovery. yes. Can I read you .

just a thirty second introductory paragraph, then you'll give you in your readers of flavor of what it's about so it's this admits a memory. It's all real. It's not to forward introduction and we go, okay, see if I can see IT .

ah I got close .

OK sorry.

should no worries, no worries paying on um can I ask you before you do that, are you onna read the order of work?

No, no, there's a story there too.

We can talk .

about that OK this just be thirty seconds OK my pick up banged in raval along the pot hold inside road in north, in the northwest corner of glaser national park, boxes of wolf traps in jars of beats slid across the truck bed. I was in a hurry. My mind focused on the wolf cotta traps.

Some were ahead in the large pool pine forest. Out of the corner of my eye. I noticed motion in my review mere. I looked up to catch the glassy reflection of vivid allow eyes framed by a wolf's black face looking over my shoulder from the back seat. How did I get here like the openings .

for my book?

It's not a tiger.

Yeah what's still .

so you ask me about.

ah what do you ask me about? Oh, the audio book.

So the audio book. So when I signed my contract, this is my David was a woman among wolves have not written a book. I published scores of tiles, but not a book.

I signed the contract. I love working with gray stone, their fantastic publisher, just a standard contract. I signed away the rights for movie audio. It's at it's Better, but I get a share of the royalties and stuff.

So when somebody bought a bit on a bottle of media rights for audio books months before is produced and and I would didn't hear about IT for a while. And by the time i'd heard about IT, they're just started producing IT. And I said, what i'd like to read for IT, I sign off an audio tape of my voice and looks like they would need to do a bunch of polishing. And IT was almost september, and they would, I would be recording for a week. IT takes like.

and I see .

a pretty fair speaker, but just, anyway.

I would take .

some training, and then I would, more important, IT would take up so much time. IT takes like, eighty hours to produce an eight hour audio book.

I know, but the thing is, like the authentic version of this book is gonna in your voice.

maybe when the rates expire.

but maybe they would just listen to this podcast and just try IT. I would love that up that expensive to get you a booth for a couple of weeks.

They hire a professional actress. The other thing was, this happened just before bird hunting season open. A sorry.

I get that. I get that. I really do. I analyses the .

same thing like you made a big mistake. I like I have options.

but either way, i'm sure it's awesome and I really appreciate you. It's been .

a blast. you. Thank you so much for her music. Just treat me royally. This been onderstand .

you very much. Thank you right back.