Sage Steele
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Sage Steele worked at ESPN as an anchor, as a host for almost 17 years. She was good at her job. That's why she stayed so long. But there was one problem. Sage Steele decided to say what she really thinks in a pretty gentle measured way. But still, for example, in 2021, she went on a podcast and hammered ESPN for its vaccine mandate, called it sick and scary, which it was.

On that same podcast, she committed a real sin and she asked an obvious question. Why does Barack Obama call himself black when he's actually biracial? He's as white as he is black. Well, you can't say that, it turns out. ESPN pulled her off the air for 10 days. Why? Interesting question. Then Steele made ESPN even madder when she said that the man in the bathing suit, Leah Thomas, who was winning all the swimming competitions, was not in fact a female swimmer. So behind the scenes-

ESPN said you'd better be quiet about the trans issues. In fact, sent her a letter saying it's totally fine to talk about trans issues as long as you don't misgender someone. In other words, you can disagree as long as you don't disagree with the people you're arguing with. You have to accept the terms of the trans activists you're criticizing or else you're a thought criminal. Watch this. There was a special, an ESPN special that came out showcasing Women's History Month. And the special was surrounding Leah Thomas.

And I just remember thinking to myself, you know, I could not imagine being a woman working there, being asked to report on this issue with a smile on my face. And so I just kind of wanted to ask about the support you felt from women since, of course, taking the stands that you have. None. None. I was asked to stop.

tweeting about it. I was asked to stop doing anything, saying anything about it on social media because I was offending others at the company. None, absolutely none.

But she does have good people around her because she herself is a good person. She's gone from ESPN. She settled a lawsuit with them. And now Sage Steele joins us in the studio. Sage Steele, it is such an honor to have you here. Thank you. This is my honor. Thank you. What a great response. Tell us about the support you've received from women. A nun. Absolutely none. Is that true? Women supporting women.

- Women, you know how it goes. - I do know how it goes, actually. - I know, and I will say throughout my career, I think that's the overall most disappointing thing is that, and especially in the sports world where when I started, like dinosaur years, no internet, you know, I was always the only woman in the locker rooms, et cetera. - I bet. - The most support I received was definitely from my male peers. - Yeah, 'cause they like women. - Well, no, wasn't it like that?

- No, no, I don't mean it in a creepy way. It's just that they're just, no, I don't mean that, actually, I didn't mean it in a sexual way. It's just that men are kind of programmed to have affection for women. I mean, they just are. - But I also think they weren't threatened by me, especially early on in my career. But even at ESPN, I was excited because where I was before in DC, I was the only mother. So I was excited to be around women who were a little bit older and could maybe, you know,

Part of the club and take care of each other as a mother, first and foremost. Forget about, you know, the broadcast because that is competitive. So I think, you know, the big picture is women preach this all the time. And it's like, oh, the men holding us down in the glass ceiling. And every time I speak publicly at an event or whatever, I make sure I bring this up because I'm very passionate about it as the mother of two girls. Yes. And they're, you know, college age kids, too. But, you know, we complain about the guys.

but look in the mirror. What do we do to each other first and foremost? - Well, I've seen it a lot. I've had a lot of female bosses, a lot, and every single one of them has been nice to me. I'm just being honest. Some were good, some were not good.

Most were not that great, but some were fine. Always nice to me. Always nice. They were savage to the women on staff. And I always noticed that. They're mean to the women. What is that? They pit us against each other. They really do. Which, again, is just unfortunate. But to me, okay, fine, own that if you don't like the other women. But then to be hypocritical and go on social media and talk about let's uplift each other.

And listen, I wasn't trying to call people out, but over the last eight months, probably a year, when I started to support Riley Gaines and certainly the whole transgender sports issue, I said, women, we don't realize our power. If we as women in the media...

let's just say women in sports media, because this is a sports issue, came together to say, no, no, no, we've been fighting for so long for women in sports and for salaries to be equal at times. You know, you look at the women's national soccer team versus the men and the ratings they brought in versus the men. There are some things, yeah, like we are fighting for women. And then to be silent

when it comes here. Like ESPNW is part of the ESPN network that W is for women. They spend millions of dollars on a big summit, like a get together of women every single year. And on the stage, it's women and promoting women and promoting diverse thought.

With women and supporting them so then when the biggest issue really of the last I don't know several decades comes up after all the title 9 fights We as sports media women remain silent to me. The hypocrisy was too thick to ignore Yeah, and and sound in a kind of North Korean way like nobody's allowed to disagree even a little bit No, and and then I found out yeah more from my employer like I

Zip it and I and so I made sure that night when I received that email which was wow I'm in the middle of a free speech lawsuit against that company I made sure and sent another email because are you gonna tell me to not support women like this is like the most Orwellian sentence I alluded to it in the intro but here it is while civil discourse on the issue of transgender athletes competing in women's sports is both appropriate and beneficial

That discourse needs to be fact-based and should not rely on personal attacks, insults, derogatory or crude language, or misgendering others. So you can disagree as long as you accept their premise. As long as you follow the narrative. And listen, I...

I knew that. But to me, this just was this was simple and it was a no brainer. But they put that in writing. That's real, right? In writing. And then it continued. And you might offend people at our company who are in the LGBTQ community by what? By supporting women? Because there's a difference between attacking the transgender community and supporting women. I have never and would never do that. That's not my heart because I have empathy for for transgender people who want to come

Of course. But the answer is not to take from the women that for over 50 years, Billie Jean King, Title IX. Sure. This is not the answer. And I had no idea that that would be controversial to stand up for women. Isn't one of my...

female relative of mine said to me the other day I thought was kind of brilliant like the whole trans thing really is just another triumph of men over women does anybody ever say that I've I have heard that more recently it's amazing how many DMs I get and emails through website or whatever from people even in the industry who are like I wish I could so thank you and I'm like oh

Well, we all can. Yes. I do understand why they don't. I mean, listen, I'm a prime example of what happens when you speak up and are yourself. You get canceled. I mean, hey, you know all about that. Yeah. Right? But there's a point in everyone's lives where you have decisions to make. For me, this is so much bigger than me. Who am I? I'm in my 50s. I'm not playing sports. I'm trying to do Peloton once a week. There it is.

there's a big difference between me and these young women like Riley Gaines or my niece, who's a good softball player, a good volleyball player. So for me, it's about kids and speaking up for parents who might have that fear, especially to hang on to their job because they might get an email like I did. So if I don't use this to stand up for these parents and young girls, then shame on me. That's kind of the way. And also, how can you respect yourself? How can you sleep soundly? How can you have dignity if you're reading someone else's script you can't?

- So, just give us a synopsis of your life. You said off camera that you'd grown up all around because you're from a military family. How did you get to ESPN? - Oh gosh, quite the-- - I bet. - Army brat. So when people say where are you from, you'd think at this point I'd come up with a better answer.

Yes. And by the time I was 11, I lived in four different countries. Wow. At the time, I spoke a couple languages, but now let's stick with English. Yes. Straight off the reservation there. Yeah. And then I went to Indiana University, Hoosier. Took all five years. And then I think they were like, just take this diploma and leave, please. Like, you are embarrassing us. Just go away. Got the piece of paper. And then, listen, ESPN was always my goal.

Always my dream. Wow. I was 11 when I announced at the dinner table to my parents that I wanted to be a sportscaster. And I was this super shy girl. I think all the moving, you know, just throughout my whole life. Yeah, of course.

Probably made me extra shy. But then it also, I think, subconsciously taught me that if you want to have friends on the kickball court, you know, at recess, certainly then into corporate America, like you have to go make that happen. Yes. So when I said I wanted to be a sportscaster, my dad and mom are like,

Okay. And this is 1984. There were no women doing this when I was 11, 12 years old. Yes. And they're like, okay, you're not to talk if you want to be on TV. So they had to really...

pushed me out of my comfort zone and pushed through that fear of being unlike, disliked if I, unlike is not a word, see English language, disliked if I'm myself and that's why I was just shy. And as a biracial young woman, my mom's white, Irish Italian, my dad's black, you felt different. You were

Not enough for here and not enough for this side either. So there's a lot of confusion. So I look back and I'm grateful for being really uncomfortable and having great parents to push me through those times when I had this dream. But they were like, you're going to have to work extra hard to get there. So did you wind up in a lot of places before USPN? Yes. Yes.

South Bend, Indiana, first one, CBS affiliate in South Bend, and then to Indianapolis. So at like 22, it was a top 25 market. I was completely in over my head and the first woman doing sports in that city. And we have NBA and NFL and all the college. And so three-man sports department, I was definitely number four out of three, like number eight out of three.

But that's where, oh, that's where there were certainly some experiences where it was obvious that they didn't want me there. They weren't quite ready. I knew I wasn't ready. But I also, you know, what do you, turn down an opportunity? No, you take it. And then you are humble, lead with humility, and ask everybody around you, lead with kindness.

Just like growing up as a kid, if you wanted friends when you kept moving across the world, you're kind and you lead with that. Of course. Yeah. So Indy and then to Tampa and then to D.C., D.C., Baltimore, Comcast, Sportsnet for six years. And actually, this is funny. And then I'll shut up. I got my first offer from ESPN in 2004 and turned it down.

I was pregnant with my second child and knew I wanted at least one more. And I had a friend, the late great Stuart Scott, God rest his soul, he died of cancer nine years ago. And he was everything at ESPN. And he was like, listen, I love you. We're the same agent. He's like, you need to be ready to go there. And as a young mother, still trying to have more kids,

you'll get eaten alive, especially back then in the early 2000s. It was a very different place. So I really took a chance and was scared. And even my agent, everybody said, you're nuts. ESPN doesn't need you. You need them. And if you turn this down, you're going to be blackballed. And I raised that family's everything.

And when you move across the world and I have two younger brothers, it was the five of us. Yes. So I knew that if I didn't follow through with that core principle in my family as a mother myself, that I'm a hypocrite. So I turned it down and took a chance that they'd call me back. Aren't you glad you did? I'm so glad. But I think it, again, it.

I didn't look at it as a bigger picture thing. It was just what I felt I had to do at that moment. Young people are... In hindsight, it was a...

yeah i believe in myself thing and a faith in god where if this was meant to be then i would get another chance but either way i have my babies and i will never regret well exactly i've met a lot of people who regret a lot of things you know tattoos jobs sexual encounters i've never met anybody who regrets a child not one yeah and that's what i say so many you know mothers will say gosh we're just not sure

I'm like, are you asking my opinion? If you're not sure, to me, that's your answer. You'll never regret, you know. Having another child. But you might if you don't. I completely agree. So I'm grateful for that time and for taking a chance and then going and to be able to live out that dream that I had when I was a little girl. How many people actually get to do exactly what they set out to do when they were 11 at that network? It's a blessing.

Amen. And in the end, you learn, I think it's fair to say, whatever TV network you work for, whatever company you work for, they don't really care about you. No. Your children care about you and always will. Even if they hate us. That's a phase. Thanks for watching our conversation with Sage Steele. Politics is so corrupt and so deceptive right now. It's really hard to know who to trust, especially in Washington.

And in the capital city, very few are holding the powerful accountable, almost nobody. But the Heritage Foundation is. Heritage has been around for about 50 years, but it seems newly energized. And as proof of that, the president of Heritage, Kevin Roberts, recently went to Davos, Switzerland with all the powerful people. But he didn't go to Ben Denis to Klaus Schwab. No, he went to tell them to their faces how awful they are.

Here's what he said. I'll be candid here because I think I've been invited here to be candid. Elites tell us that open borders and even illegal immigration are okay.

The average person tells us in the United States that both robbed them of the American way of life. Elites also tell us that public safety isn't a problem in big American cities. Just travel to New York or Washington or Dallas, Texas. The average person will tell you that the lack of public safety damages not just the American way of life, but their life. Well, amen. If you want to know more about Heritage, go to heritage.org slash Tucker. We recommend you do.

So what was ESPN political when you got there? No. Right. That's what I thought. No, no. And it's interesting. We did. See, we. How long do you do that for? Quite a while. I, you know, look back and you realize, gosh, we were kind of inching closer and closer. Yeah. And especially when when Trump won in 2016. Yeah. And it was like, just wow. Yeah.

I remember talking to my bosses and this is so this 2016 2017 and saying what are we doing and why are we allowing this Michael Jordan said it in the 80s and

Republicans buy sneakers too. And because he was criticized, as Tiger Woods has been criticized for not being vocal enough for the black community politically. And to me, they're smart businessmen who say, no, no, no, I want everybody. So I would use that example to my bosses at my sports network. Like, don't we want everybody to watch ESPN? Why divide? I believe if people want politics, they can go to CNN. They can go to Fox News. Of course. They came to us.

as a respite and as an escape. Exactly. And so why, why, why? And then that president was ousted, a little drama. And then the new president came in and I think it was 2017, Jimmy Pataro, and he agreed and it was great. And he kind of threw the line in the sand, like, we're not doing this. We want everybody to watch. And then the pandemic hit and then George Floyd happened and

It's been a mess since. So your read is that the president of ESPN was really trying to just be a sports channel, but he was overwhelmed by it. The current president, yes. Yes. And then listen, who are we owned by? Well, good point. Disney. Yeah. A very political, very left-wing company. Yes.

So I just got to go back to what we said in the intro about your interview about Barack Obama on a podcast. I find that really interesting and very confusing. Can you explain what you said and what you meant? Yes, gladly. It was with Jay Cutler, the former Bears quarterback. And he had a really good research staff who picked out a couple of topics that I had spoken on in the past. And

It was actually a story from 2014. I didn't bring up Barack Obama. Barbara Walters brought up Barack Obama when I was on The View in 2014 when Obama was still president. And they, Barbara in particular, wanted to talk about why I...

chose to identify as biracial like identify well i am i don't know why this is controversial why you choose to acknowledge reality yeah and so but i said absolutely bring it up and so we're live on the view abc you know we're all saying all the same company yeah family and said well why do you choose to say you're biracial and i said and she goes barack obama doesn't

And I said, OK. I said, I think it's interesting for the president to, you know, completely, you

Forget about the fact or ignore the fact that he was raised by his white mother and white grandmother and his black father was nowhere to be found. Now, that wasn't breaking news. He wrote a book about that. Oh, yeah. I'm not criticizing. I'm saying these are the facts. So to me, it was interesting that he chose to completely ignore his white side and identify as black. My personal opinion, which I've never really said publicly, is, OK, this was planned. This was political. Everyone knew what they were doing when they were –

he's coming up through Chicago. They, they had a plan for Obama for many, many, many years. But I did say, you do you, I'm going to do me. And I, I don't know. I,

I'm pretty sure my white mother was there the day I was born. I mean, again, the vicinity anyway, I don't know. I'm there. And so I said, but I, I'm so proud. I'm so proud to have been raised in this beautifully diverse family where my white family loves me as much as my black family. Isn't that what we want? And so to me, that wasn't controversial, but I will never ignore my mother. And so that got me in trouble. So she brought up, Oh,

Obama in 2014. And so fast forward to 2021, this podcast. So can I just ask, did people respond negatively to you saying that? Yes, there definitely was some negativity and Barbara went, oh.

And listen, she's not here to... Right. It's nothing personal, but these are just the facts of what happened and then what led to the 2021. Yeah, there were several people. In 2014, Twitter, I don't think, was what it is now. Right. And certainly how crazy it's gotten. But I did get some... Listen, throughout my life, the most criticism I've received, especially since probably 2016, 2017, when I've given opinions on things, the most criticism I've received is...

Unfortunately, from people who look like me, from the black community. And so the criticism that day in 2014 was, well, she's a sellout and look at her white husband and all of these things. And so that used to break me. That used to really devastate me. Because when you're a biracial kid growing up and you kind of are told you have to choose sides, and I never did. My parents...

gave me that strength despite the shyness to say no no this is this is who i am and why is that bad not knowing that 30 years later this would be such a controversial thing but um you know so i was just recapping that story in 2021 and and reiterated it and then that me describing what happened with barbara walters um turned into in 2021 sage deal hates black people and thinks barack obama should not identify as black and i said no no no like hates black people oh you're

Your dad's black. You can't make it up. You can't make it up. So but that that when I got suspended by ESPN, they did bring that up to me. Like, why? Why are you talking about Obama? And what do you mean? And so, you know, I would love not allowed to talk about Obama. Not if you don't follow the narrative. If I had said, listen, I grew up in a biracial household, but I'm a black woman.

I would probably still have a job. But can I just – I just think it's – maybe I'm overthinking or perhaps underthinking it, but it's – it does seem very strange. Like I thought the whole point of the melting pot idea was that we're all people inside and that the left is certainly not against people of different races getting together and having children. Right.

i mean you know i don't think they're against that right i don't they don't seem to be so why would they get mad if you say i'm the product of of mixed-race marriage i just think it's like the craziest thing i've ever heard you know that one drop rule we've yeah for years which i've yeah i guess i just don't care enough right i agree i agree with that actually like whatever i'm 50 50 i'm yeah i'm a little bit of both you know and

to me with where we are today, where DEI and diversity and inclusion and all of the things, acceptance and tolerance, don't I kind of define that? Yeah, I would think so. You know, and so I've been so confused by it, but, and this is a discussion I hope to have on many levels as I, you know, my career takes different turns now and just to be able to have a conversation. But the hypocrisy in this whole topic is,

I represent diversity in America. I'm so grateful that my parents, 52 years ago, coming off the civil rights era, chose to choose love over violence.

divisiveness. My mother's parents disowned her for marrying a black man. She had to choose between her family and the man that she loved that loved her. This didn't matter. And so I look at my parents, 52 years, and I'm like, you know what? You guys can keep all your hatred. Your parents are still... Oh, yes. They're alive and well, some health issues, and 52 years. They've been married 52 years. Yes.

That's my but and as a biracial couple, despite some very difficult times within the family because of the difference, you know. So I look at them and I'm like, OK, I can kind of handle anything. But it is completely hypocritical in my mind for the black community to to draw this line, you know, and because I don't say black.

and I say biracial, I'm a sellout. I'm a coon. I'm named, I can't say on TV. And I, Tucker, I used to be quiet about it. And you've actually gotten that from people directly? I've received death threats from people who look like me because I don't,

identify the way they want me to. They got on Tiger Woods about this, I remember. Correct. Correct. And I didn't really understand the dynamic there either. Like, why are you against Tiger Woods? I never understood this. I never understood this. To me, I just feel like so blessed to be able to represent that diversity that I think America makes America great, you know. But I do think this because now, fine, I've been canceled 100 times. I don't care anymore. That's the cool thing.

I have to keep speaking out about this and all of these things that have gotten me in trouble because it is bigger than me. And every time I've spoken at a college or university, I just came from a women's skincare conference. Everywhere I go, this topic comes up because I've been in the news for it. But there are a bunch of biracial kids out there who are being told that they're not enough, who are being told to ignore their white mother or white father or Asian mother or father. And I know what that feels like. And I've been...

hung, you know, publicly and canceled for not identifying the way that others want me to. So if I don't speak up because I now don't care about what comes at me, then what about these kids? So I had a woman the other day at this conference come up to me, a white woman in tears who's married to a black man and has two kids who are being told right now they're like eight and 11 who are being told, well, what your mom. Disown your white mother. Yeah.

at a young age and she was in tears. And I just hugged her because I was like, stand tall. Let me talk to your kids. Like, I will do anything to help parents and kids of any age. I'm 51. Like, I'll talk to... Who is being told that they're not enough because they don't identify how the left and the Black community, and not all areas, but in many, says that we have to identify. It's BS. It's actually racist. Yeah. It's wrong. And so I feel...

I feel so obligated and excited to tackle this for others who are told that they're not enough. Yeah, it's absolutely wild to me that, I'll just say the last time, but I just can't help but say it. At the exact moment where we're like, no, embrace your identity, be who you are. You know, these are inborn qualities. It's like attacking people for stating their identity clearly. It's insane to me.

I'll see you next time.

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It's heartbreaking. I was at a conference once and I have to share this because I think you'll find it fascinating. We've heard this quite often, but a wonderful young woman, a motivational speaker, she's white. They're predominantly black people at the conference and I was the moderator. And she got on stage and she said, "I just need to apologize." And I said, "For what?" She goes, "I need to apologize for all white people because we can never understand." And I

It was a moment, Tucker. Settle down, honey. But I was like, okay. Yes, among other things I was thinking. This is 2017, 16, 17. Oh, okay. And I just thought, oh boy, is this, you know, I'm the moderator. I need to stay out of this. No, I need to, I have a unique perspective, I guess, because I'm biracial. And I said, no offense. I think you meant well because I know your heart. But I'm going to tell you, I'm offended that you are telling me

that my white mother should apologize. - Yeah, exactly. - I mean, have you seen me? Have you seen my mother? Have you seen who she married? So when you lump white people together saying you should all apologize for what? What did you do? - I couldn't agree more. - What have you done? You should be apologizing to me. Swear to God. - So how was that received when you said that?

muffled claps because people are afraid. But afterwards, for almost an hour and a half, there was a line of people, a lot of biracial people, a lot of white mothers, white fathers, black as well, who agree with me and said, thank you. A couple kids were crying. So the less fearful I've gotten, the more I realize that I have to

talk about this because we're actually so blessed to have grown up in that environment. Yes. And whenever you tell the truth about anything, especially the hard ones, it offends people and enrages them and they plot violence against you in some cases. But other people are thrilled and inspired and joyful just to hear something that's true. I think there's a lot more positive. I agree. I really do. But the negative is what comes through on social media. But there's a lot more sanity. So after this happened, after the Obama, the fabled Obama interview,

What did you think your status at ESPN was? If they're going to get mad at you for that, that's a problem. Well, the number one thing at that time, because it kept changing that they said they were upset about, was my comments about the vaccine mandate. That was the number one thing that

Got me in trouble. Did they tell you that it's not your body or choice or do they just kind of move? Because they have been telling us it was our body or choice. I remember that. Did anyone officially announce that to you or is it just assumed that that was no longer a principle? It's literally you have until September 30th, 2021 to get a vaccine or you're no longer employed. Whoa.

And I waited till the very last possible day to make the decision because then it had to be in you for two weeks, I think it was, in order to be fully vaccinated. And so this was a very... And I was close to walking. Yeah. Because I just... And this is two plus years ago. At the time, I just wanted more information. Of course. That's it. Me too. Yeah. And I'm like, can you give it six months? Because there's...

I am no scientist. I'm not a political analyst. I'm not. I'm a sportscaster and I'm a mother and I'm just trying to do the best thing for me and for my kids. And I just did a little homework. And it's like, wait, isn't on average, isn't it six to nine years for the FDA to approve any vaccine? Like, can we just slow down? Can you give me six months? Like, I don't know, an exception. I won't tell anybody. I'm just afraid. Yeah. Yeah.

And I, listen, I am divorced and I'm the sole breadwinner and always have been. And I have three kids. Yeah. Who are currently in college and one on the way. Yes. So.

that choice and I'm not alone. I am so blessed to be able to afford to do more than the average American, right? Right. But at that moment, when I'm sitting in the drugstore parking lot, do I go in and get the shot that I completely disagree with at this moment in 2021? Or, you know, do I get this or do I walk and then not be able to pay for my kids, to pay my mortgage, to support my family, my alimony, like all that?

Am I willing to do that? And what am I going to do? So this is how millions of Americans feel. So this is not a woe is me. This is a let's talk about the hypocrisy, because I believe that someday we're probably going to get back here again and there's going to be difficult decisions to be made again. But I did what I had. They're like, sorry, you have a you have a choice, even though you don't have a choice if you want your job. So I went and did it. And then ironically, I

That day was the day that my podcast appearance was scheduled on on Jay Cutler. So I was coming in hot, Tucker, off of getting the shot. But you already obeyed their orders and done this thing you didn't want to do because you had to keep your job. I complied. You complied. So you'd already done it, but they just didn't want to be criticized for it, even though you had done it. Yes. And I listen, I really tried to be.

careful with my words that day um but I specifically said um because I had I had the band-aid on my arm like I raced from there to the and I was rushing and I had been emotional about it and so I I just set up my my Zoom and went and I didn't even think you know and so um Jay asked me about it right before and I was like ask what you want I don't care and then um and then so when he said it and we're you know rolling I said listen I respect everybody's opinions

For me,

I'm not comfortable getting this, but I had to do it in order to keep my job a job that I love because I loved it to the very last day, Tucker. I said, but I believe that it is sick and scary for any company to tell their employees what to do with their body. Yeah, what medical treatment to get. That's crazy. But I said, but I work for a global company, Disney, and it doesn't surprise me. And so I had to do this to keep my job. I didn't want to, but I complied. And here we are. But I think it's wrong.

And that was the beginning of the end. So what did they say to you once you said that? Oh, the phone call conversations from one boss in particular. He's like, you whacked the company. You can't whack Disney.

You can't say those things. I said, what do you mean? I complied. I don't understand. And he said, you said it's sick and scary. I go, well, it is that you all are telling me what to do with my body. He's like, you can't say that. You cannot criticize your employer. We found out through my attorney, our attorney. We have a similar attorney. Yes.

that in the state of Connecticut, there's different laws. There's a statute that says, because obviously First Amendment, that does not cover employers. Yes. But in the state of Connecticut, there's a statute where you are allowed to criticize your employer if you're complying, and they cannot punish you for that. And so we found...

A loophole there. And even though it's crazy because I complied, I shouldn't even have to find this. They found it. And this was a free speech lawsuit based on me being able to say that I can have an opinion about something you're forcing me to do to my body if I'm complying to your rules. And I did it.

So first it was – but that was before the immediate reaction was you can't whack the company. You spoke poorly about Disney. You can't – you knocked Obama. I was like, I didn't knock Obama. I told –

Because you acknowledged he had a white mom. Because I acknowledged a story from 2014 that no white moms allowed that had been said on the ABC network six years prior. That was okay then, but not now. And so they suspended me, took me off the air, took events from me, made me publicly apologize, and then followed it up with a statement of their own saying we believe in diversity of thought. However... Yeah, you can't disagree with the Vax or misgender someone. Right.

That's like, that's a really crazy, I mean, that was only a couple years ago, but it feels like a different time. I don't, maybe things have gotten better? - Oh, I don't know. Well, I mean, I think as far as the vaccine conversation, again, all I wanted was time

for more research to be done. I think now we all know two years later, my gut, a lot of people's gut instinct about it was right. Especially when, wait, wait, wait, I thought we get this and we're not going to COVID, right? Well, we get it and we're not going to spread it, right? Like all of the things that have been well documented, which we choose to ignore now. It just goes away that we were forced to do it. So I think that that just quietly goes away.

At the end of the day, and I really mean this because what happened to me happened. It was a brutal decision to have to decide to publicly stand up and file a lawsuit. Like that was another level because this is the company that I loved.

the job that I dreamt up since I was 11 years old and did it and did it at the highest level and loved every moment, literally. But to decide to do that, because obviously it's going to be really loud and really public. Yeah. And to sue Disney and ESPN, you don't do that. You know, especially I went back to this shy 11 year old kid. Yes. Oh, my gosh. They're all going to hate me. And and, you know, but then you have to decide for yourself.

Can you look yourself in the mirror? Can you go to sleep at night? And when I'm preaching to my children and other young women and men out there and broadcasters to be true to yourself and to stand tall and to not just take it when you disagree with something, do it nicely, do it civilly. So this is not even about me anymore. Like I've been canceled. I'm fine. I'm still standing. I'm alive, you know, but.

My goal with the lawsuit, my goal today and every day, honestly, it sounds dramatic, but till the day I die is to use this platform that I've been given and earned, but been given. And I believe that's a faith thing as well to say to these companies, no, you cannot pick and choose who is allowed to speak.

My network, ESPN, allowed at the same time as mine going on, my peers, co-hosts, to go on SportsCenter, to go on NBA shows and talk about Roe versus Wade and talk about George Floyd and talk about these things on a sports show.

That's not why you do you, I guess, right? Like run the company how you want, but to allow, encourage that. But then when I'm on my own talking about my experience as a biracial woman or my experience with a vaccine mandate, even though I complied and you punish me and take things away, that's not okay. And if we truly believe in diversity, right?

Like, I'm done. It's diversity of thought. We must begin there. And it was completely hypocritical. And I hope and pray that by little old me trying to stand up against big, bad Disney, I mean, it really is David versus Goliath, that maybe more companies, more bosses, more leaders will begin to realize, listen, it's all or nothing. Just keep the rules consistent for everybody. You can't say they can speak and talk about abortion on an NBA show and not

Let the others. They literally promoted abortion on an NBA program. Well, Roe versus Wade came down and then we have anchors crying on TV. For real? Yes. And we have people giving moments of silence for don't say gay on women's college basketball program. They took a moment of silence on live TV to talk about the don't say gay. And I don't know if you read the bill. Those words aren't in there. I can't. To pray to what?

Well, I don't know that they were controlling prayer. I don't think they're praying to anything. Probably not. Moment of silence. So the hypocrisy was too thick for me to remain silent. And I pray that leaders begin to realize you can't pick and choose who can speak. It's diversity of thought or don't let anybody.

Hey guys, Josh Hammer here, the host of America on Trial with Josh Hammer, a podcast for the First Podcast Network. Look, there are a lot of shows out there that are explaining the political news cycle, what's happening on the Hill, the this, the that.

There are no other shows that are cutting straight to the point when it comes to the unprecedented lawfare debilitating and affecting the 2024 presidential election. We do all of that every single day right here on America on Trial with Josh Hammer. Subscribe and download your episodes wherever you get your podcasts. It's America on Trial with Josh Hammer. It feels like, I mean, throughout our lives, looking back, it's obvious that some of the worst things are some of the best things.

obviously a horrible experience for you at ESPN, but on some level, aren't you glad you're gone? Glad and glad I'm gone are kind of two different things. I mean, at the end of the day, yes.

I'm still heartbroken that it happened the way it did. Yes. It didn't have to. Yes. And I, again, I loved what I did and it took me years to get there and it was super hard to stay there. Yeah. Not the most welcoming, nurturing place where you're being uplifted and encouraged and just even given constructive criticism to continue to get better. Right. But I did it, damn it. Yeah. And...

I'm glad because I can finally speak without being in fear. Yeah. Knowing again that like,

It's a lot bigger than me. I thought through the years, I was just following my dream. And then along the way, I had young women reaching out and saying, oh my gosh, back in the day, my bosses said, you have to straighten your hair and you can't look, that's not what anchors on TV look like, especially national TV. And so I have young girls saying, you're the first woman I saw that just owned your hair and didn't straighten and have the anchor bob and all that. So I just was talking about sports, like naive, but I didn't realize that I was

being an example for other young women out there and black women and just the diversity part. And so then when I realized that, what an honor, you know? So I'm sad that I don't have that platform to continue to do that, but I did it for almost 17 years. And now I'm excited at the potential of doing it

I mean, look, I get to talk to Tucker Carlson where other people who have no idea who I am will see me and forget about this stuff. I'm just saying about being true to who we are and standing up for what we believe in. And not lying. No, I totally agree. I did have to lie. I had to lie a lot about things that I didn't agree with that we were doing on the air. Like, tell me. Well, to not be able to ask specific questions about, you know, when we had athletes come

all of a sudden collapse. LeBron's son. Yeah. It's a fair question to ask if he had had the vaccine. Yes. He's a young man. Healthiest possible. Exactly. That's one example. But to not be able to go there and ask those questions. They wouldn't let you. Oh, no. And it wasn't just me. It was other pieces that were done on Outside the Lines about it. But

To me, I don't care if you're LeBron's son or if you're my neighbor. Like, you're a young man in particular because there's some science behind that. We don't like the science word now, but there's some science behind that, right? And so if an 18-year-old kid is suddenly collapsing. Especially a boy. That's right. If I'm his mother, I'm asking, okay, did he collapse because it was raining today versus sunny? Like, any potential reason for this sudden collapse. Of course, all the variables. You're going to ask as a journalist. Right.

I'm not saying it was the Vax because I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I get it. But we must ask this question. But those questions are absolutely not allowed. And they were never asked on the network when I was there.

But you got to wonder about the motive. I mean, why would ESPN want to run cover for Pfizer? Like, why do they care? But they do care so much. I don't know. Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, CDC, Fauci. Like, it goes deep, right? It goes very deep. It's just... Disney, though. I mean, I think we have to remember who runs ESPN.

And I think that Disney, when you look at the decisions Disney has made for many years, despite it really affecting their bottom line, right? They've continued. Recently, Bob Iger came out, I think, in that SEC filing, admitting, acknowledging that they went too woke in many areas. And look at what's happened with the...

what used to be incredible content that Disney used to put out, you know? And look what's happened, and look at the numbers and the losses. Well, look at ESPN and the numbers there. I mean, that's part of my question. Do you think you got out in retrospect at the right time? Oh, yeah. I mean, do you think ESPN will be a force in sports news in 10 years? You know, I think, well, it all goes back to the rights deals. Yeah. And because I know, I hear all the time on social media that the only reason that they watch ESPN is because

They've got the games.

But hey, it's not just ESPN. The leagues have done it. Look at what the NBA has done and kind of shoving it down your throats. And then on the courts, it says Black Lives Matter still in some places. And it's like, wait, are we not paying attention to what we now know factually about Black Lives Matter? So I'm just never surprised anymore. My point is, just because I'm not surprised doesn't

Doesn't mean I give up. We give up those of us who aren't afraid anymore. If we give up, I feel like we're complicit. Did any that's for certain you're exactly right there. I think. Did any other anchors express empathy come, you know, offline privately?

There were a few. There were definitely a few. And anchors or reporters or analysts, for sure. There was a lot of people who feel the way I feel about many things. A lot of men who work there, who are on air, who wrote and said, you know, I don't

I don't know that it's courage, but they said, I wish I had the courage that you have. Oh, that's so embarrassing. Come on. Come on. Get some dignity, right? I mean, I, I agree. Grow a pair. Yeah. Um,

And at the same time, I do try to put myself in their shoes. No, I get it. As white men. Yeah, no, I get it. When you don't have endless money and you have a family to support, white men are not allowed to have a voice in that part of the industry. And so I understand the fear. But I also see black men and people who are allowed to say much whatever they want quite often on social media, at ESPN, who have daughters, right?

Who are athletes. Who are silent. And I know damn well that they're not letting a guy, a biological male, play against their daughter on the volleyball court. Of course not. But they're silent. Why? Well, I think it just goes back to...

The woke. But I mean, if like Michael Wilbon, you know, or whatever, someone who's... Who I love. Yeah, yeah. But we think completely differently on everything. Then Wilbon's views may be totally sincere. But like if someone who's established and made some dough, really you can say whatever you want. Why don't they? I think it's this kind of what I dealt with as a young woman and middle-aged woman for years. It's that fear of being...

disliked and attacked. So these big, strong, tough football players, you know, and NBA players who have millions of dollars in the bank who are now analysts, especially in the African-American community. Like I know for the most part with this topic of transgender and sports issue,

- Uh-uh, we're on the same page. - They're not into it at all. - Hell no. But they're silent. And to me, that's the worst thing is when they know and they can't afford to speak up. Again, it's never against the transgender community. It's in support of women. And if we focus on that, so I actually have lost a ton of respect for a lot of those people because they just go like this. But then when there's other issues that do go along with the narrative,

Then it's let's go and let's pound the table and pound the fist. And that's the hit box. If three or four of those guys just decided, you know, we're not going to lie anymore and just said what they thought, you can't fire them all. You can't. That's why I said, at least as women, like, let's come together and do this because they need us. And we're right.

Well, just as a factual matter, you're right. It's not some sort of like, why did the First World War start? It's can a man become a woman by wishing it so? No. Hashtag science. Yeah. Because I'm not that smart, but I know. Not either. Yeah. Even I can perceive that. So how long has it been since you left ESPN? August 14th, 2023. August 14th. Oh, wow. Oh, just the other day. I know.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's weird because it becomes kind of part of your identity. Right. Well, of course, I should ask you for advice because it's a even if you know it's the right thing, it's still there's still almost traumatic because especially if you loved it. Yeah. But I will say this.

I haven't missed it. Right. Just weird. I thought that I would. I haven't watched any of it. I watched some games, but I don't watch it because I don't think I realized...

just the grind of 28 years in the industry in general you know um but also i did 28 years in the industry i know that number yeah it's a lot it's a lot a lot and it's it's every ounce of it ups and downs it was such an honor and i you know who knows what's next as far as like you know the next chapter um long term hopefully you know round two but i um i don't know i really feel like i was i was

I was there for a reason, you know, probably a reason that I'm not even fully clear on. That's right. Right now. And that's a faith thing, a trust thing. But I also, it was exhausting the last two years because I sued the company while I was still on their air. Yeah. Usually that doesn't happen. It's after you leave a company. Yeah, they try and prevent that from happening. I mean, again, not what I wanted, Tucker, but to continue to go on the air every day

I got really good at compartmentalizing, you know, and walking in that building knowing that there are a lot of people who hated me because I was speaking. And so, but I had a job to do. And I had a two-hour live show every day to co-host with a great co-host. Matt Berry is the best and the best producers. And I was hands-on in every single interview, you know, for two hours live, like highlights. And so it was awesome to be able to realize I found a way to compartmentalize, put it back here for two hours.

and be all in and let go of that fear of my peers who there were a lot who hated me for what I was saying and doing. But that took a toll. That took a toll those last two years. And so when it ended, it was a relief because to kind of balance that while going on the air, knowing that my bosses hated me. It's awful. Yeah.

I have to say, having spent a long time in that business and then you leave and you realize that not everything is television.

Kind of like there's a whole world out there. And it is, TV is a bit of a biosphere. It's very self-referential. Everyone in TV watches TV. They talk to other people who work in TV. They think about TV all the time. And I don't think that's the experience of most people on the planet at this point. You know what I mean? You don't realize how isolated you are when you work in that business and you get out and like, actually, nobody really cares. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you said that. Yeah. It's almost, it's almost, um,

It's almost like you're brainwashed. Yeah, it's a bit of a cult for sure. A little cult and especially in the sports world and especially that ESPN world because it's the worldwide leader in sports. And this is the pinnacle. And you think it all revolves around you or your network or what you're doing. And that's exactly what I said to my parents recently. There's a whole world out there who doesn't give a crap about some sports anchor. And it's beautiful. And amazing.

I'm so excited to continue to learn about that and to just be, it's been awesome to be more present. My youngest is a senior in high school. Like this is it before all three are in college. And, you know, as a mom and I had all three really close together less than four years and I, there were a lot of sacrifices to try to do it all and be the best anchor and make sure my bosses knew how committed I was, which comes across in your work. I kept getting promoted in new contracts. So they agreed, you know,

But like that mom guilt that is always there. And I know dads have it too. But to try to be, I was the room mom for all three at the same time. You couldn't just do just two or else you don't care about that third kid, right? Of course. So that balance and what a blessing to be able to be so present for my kids. Most importantly, yes, that's number one, actually. 1A was when I reflect back on the actual decision to stand up.

the night before the lawsuit dropped i went i spoke to each kid separately and i have two girls and my son's in the middle he's 19 now and i um just said listen i want you to know to all three of them i want you guys to know this is coming and it's going to suck because other things that were public they were attacked people find your kids on social medias you know yes teachers would say things to my kids like just gross i said i need you to know you don't ever have to defend me ever

If someone asks you and you're so inclined, I would just say, we all have a right to our opinion. My mom has hers. And just leave it at that. But don't ever feel the need to defend me. And I said, I just want you to know I'm sorry for anything that might come your way. Please let me know. But know that I'm trying to do this just for others as well. And my son, who is the quiet one of the three, you know, like go girls. Always got sisters. Yes. He looked at me.

oh, this is the only time I get choked up. He looked at me and he said, mom, it's about time you stood up for yourself. Well, good for him. At the time he was 17. So they see more than we think. Oh, I agree. And I thought I was a really good actress and hiding the, you know, the disappointment and kind of the pain when employers, people that you trust and love and are friends with and have had to your home crush you intentionally. And, um,

For my kid to say that, my son, I realized, wow, I wonder if he's been disappointed that I just took it to pay the bills and to be safe because it's easier to be quiet. So I knew no matter what happened, even if I lost the lawsuit, even no matter what, my kids knew that their mom stood up for what she thought was right. And I can die knowing that no matter what happens in my future, your kids know.

For me, it's my parents and my kids and my God that they're the ones that matter about what they think of me. Nobody else does. So it was kind of peaceful to go into that lawsuit. So when it dropped the next day and it was like, I knew my kids were OK. Well, you're blessed then because that's a realization most people have only on their deathbed.

And you're very generous to tell your kids they don't need to defend you. I told my kids, find the heaviest object you can lift and defend me at all costs. I know you did. That's your moral duty. Or I'm not paying for your college. Just kidding. I never talked to them. I love it. Well, yeah, I think you're an amazing person and I am completely convinced whatever you do next will be worth watching and we will be. And I'm grateful that you came. Thank you. It means the world that- Oh, I mean it. It means the world that you care so much about this country. Yeah.

it's everything as an army kid like what you do and it's been a choice you didn't have to do this you didn't have to continue to stand up and speak truth um you are the role model for me and so many others so thank you well it's been easy and fun but sage steel thank you very much