Ryan Salame: Facing Prison for Donating to Trump, His Journey With SBF, & Why the Banks Hate Crypto
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So I feel like kind of an idiot um as someone who is watching from a far of this case that I had never really occurred to me that the way I was prosecuted would be determined by politics but of course because the justice system is inherently political now is openly political and worn an election year where trump is running so um I was interested to note in reading about an end in our breakfast that we just had um you were not indeed you about to go away for seven and half years to the person but not for financial crimes fundamental for campaign finance violations. And so in one sentence, let me tell you the overview from my perspective. Correct me, i'm wrong here.

You have same bank man fried, who's in person for a long time, but he's not in charge with any campaign finance violations. He give to democrats will get by noted you gave to republicans and you're going away on campaign ance violations. That's .

correct.

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Here's the episode. So I I initially assumed the justice department was not sort of a political organization. And because I was new to D. C, I didn't get around that much. You go and you try to have faith and try shakes out, realizing that IT is incredibly political.

but you're not going to prison for making up a fake cyp T O currency, defrauding investors.

no. In fact, the justice department are specifically noted and stated that they know I was not aware of the central fraud so they introduce some evidence, some testimony during sams case that showed right up until the last minute Caroline ellison was lying to me and to the rest of sort of people at F, T, X. And alamito about funds being stolen. So um gives you .

that what I mean again, i'm coming at this is non finance person, just as a reader of the news. But I thought the crime at F T X was defrauding a million investors using investor funds for things like real estate right?

Completely agree that that is the crime that occur.

but that's not what you're going to prison for.

correct? They you in uncovering that crime, they manufacturer a lot of other crimes and intent behind them that was just not there and never existed. So the two things that i've played guilty to are Operating unlicensed money transmitting business and campaign finance fraud. The reality is the campaign ance fraud d is everything that they wanted. And then they sort of found some other things to lay at my feet and put .

pressure on to me with. So um just go through them. What can you describe what the first crime is?

yes. So you need a money transmitting license to Operate a money transmitting business in the united states. Uh.

everyone is money transmitting money from one place to.

essentially moving money one place to. I actually, when I arrived mea, I went to our lawyers and questioned whether we needed money transparently licences or not because I had just been at a company um that had money transmit licences so I knew of these licenses and where they are relevant and I got very specific legal instruction from you good lawyers, that we did not need money transmitting licenses in.

Those licences are be used by the federal government .

and yeah that's correct and .

state governments as well okay um so okay, so that's one you running an not getting A A license of government license to move money from one place to .

another correct? Or I know the company that I ran was we didn't touch U. S.

customers. There is a separate us. Division that did touch U. S. Customers and they had money transmit licences.

okay. So what how could you be and that for that?

And I mean, it's a great, great question. Certainly even if we needed if to I was not a lawyer, I sought legal advice um you the lawyers that sort of ran the company, ran regulation, ran the licensing, noted that this is was their responsibility um but IT has been laid .

at my feet so you're accused of not getting A A U. S. Government license to move the money of non U S.

citizens. correct? How can that be a crime? I've yet to have a lawyer explained to me why we needed empty our licenses.

Okay, all right. Um interesting. This is just sort of doing my, I mean, even when I was considering doing this interview, I sing, well, F, T, X, bad.

Fraud, bad. We did the whole document on Y, F, T, X committed fraud. Mother bad. I still think, and I just didn't know that you weren't charge for those crimes. And I don't think that most people reading the news coverage of your please would understand like if you're just following bloomberg news or reuters would understand that you were never charged with the crimes that F, G, X is famous for.

Yeah that's that's correct. And you know that's big part of why i'm here, why we're talking about. But interesting, you know there's a lot of misconception around many aspects of the case .

well but this isn't in the rum of opinion. These are just the facts, publicly ly available facts, what you are for, what you plead to, what you're being sentenced for like those aren't opinions. Those are verifiable facts.

Yeah, that's correct. And none of these charges are in any way defrauding any individual or taking money from them or stealing from them. You know I had ninety eighty sh percent of my network on the the platform. If I thought sam was stealing money, I would not have my money. R F, D, X wouldn't make IT he said.

um okay, so that you you committed a crime that doesn't seem to be a crime logically, but whatever. Um and then the campaign finance violations .

the campaign finance violations are because I borrowed money from alamito, which was sams company that he oed private company. No, investors all just let money, but I borrows money. And then I went did a lot of things with that money.

And one of the big things I did was get involved in political contributions, right um but you know I also bought my god with that money. I I lived off that money. So the part of the real story there is when I decided to get involved in politics and take a lot of money off of the F, T, X.

Platform, I again went to our legal count. I said, look, i'm to sell off a large chunk of the money that I have on the platform. Ah this is various cyp to tokens.

This is that had some equity olia selling. I was I was going to cash out essentially um and the world is advised that that is not the way to do IT. The proper way to do IT would be to borrow the money against these holdings. Um it's attacks advantage strategy um it's not a crime is how most people borrow when they have sort of a large pool of equity um and have a lot of prominent people get money out.

Um I would say right around one hundred percent actually.

Yeah the lawyers advised wyers .

don't hit on the gains correct .

count IT will eventually .

be tax right? You've got a on the stuff you you took possession of these assets when they were worth. Much lesson they worth now, correct? And so you borrow against IT to catch out.

correct? And then I use a bunch of that money to get involved in the political.

So but I just even afford that. I want to confirm that, that is not not only is that not unusual, that is the standard correct for people on in your position. I happen to know that. So yeah ah and accountants .

address that layers advice I mean that is you know what you're told to do.

one that is a hundred percent show yeah what do you agree with the our system, our tax system, that doesn't matter, that is what everybody does, a legitimate people. So um okay so then but the problem that you ran into a rose from the fact they use some of that money to give political campaign contributions, and so what does that consist of?

Um I believe in total I don't need about twenty to thirty million um throughout the cycle to republican candidate. okay. Um so anywhere from your packs to individual donations to specific candidates up to the I think that was two thousand and eight hundred limit. And what .

present of that money went? Republicans, one hundred percent of the .

money I gave one to republicans. I've always been republicans. Yeah, it's just the party that makes the most sense for a plea of reasons race point .

but those consistent in your belief .

is this in my beliefs? It's rare to be I think Young in tech um and a republican so it's a lot of why I you know got involved um but yes.

at the same time sam bankin freed famously was contributing to politicians as well.

correct? He was running yeah, he was giving primarily to democrats. So he was doing some dark to republicans as well.

How much should he give to democrats?

I don't know the exact numbers. I want to say we're close to sixty to seventy million and total.

wow. Yeah so one of the biggest .

in a second third in the .

twenty twenty cycle. Just correct. Um and he is not in indeed for paignton violations. That's correct.

He was not ended on the camion n finance violations. Only two of us scotland trouble for campaign ance. And that was the shot. Sing, who is part of the central fraud.

and myself. Hm, so he gave publicly anyway to democrats. You gave to republicans much less, but you get and died.

He doesn't. That's correct. And how do you think that works?

know? I I don't understand how all of this works anymore so I don't know what what to say to that but it's strange is especially sense um you know he was the central political figure sort of this is yeah.

哼。 What was your crime exactly?

My crime was the accused having a straw donor for sand back and free so I was only doing I was taking his money and spreading IT out um because I was borrowed from alamito. But I was your money though.

well, I was .

borrowed against my money, and IT would have been my money. Why not go on to the lawyers and ask them the appropriate way to take money out? yes.

okay. So I mean, is that is that i'm just confused by the concept little bit. If I you know if my network is mostly barred, which is in the case, that's true for a lot of people. You and I donate to a political campaign. Is that a strong contribution?

IT wasn't this case? IT was considered a straw of that before. No, no. I mean, the the sort of the thing I have to wrap my head around, that there has to be A Y right.

If if does, why for for anything? I don't know why I would make something a crime. They didn't need to be right IT IT doesn't. What does that mean? Like if I had just sold off my cyp to and contributed the way I initially wanted to and plan to, there is no crime but because I sort of went, listened and borrowed the money um the way I was advised to theyve now turn IT into a straw .

donor scheme so IT doesn't seem to make any sense these charges actually yes.

I I would agree with the fact that they don't and I was no, I was very close to go to trial. The governments came comes up with creative ways to get you do not go to trial, and they came up with a very smart way to get me to avoid trial.

which was what .

they told me, that if I plead guilty to these two crimes, they would not pursue my loved ones. And looking at anything that they had done or investigating them.

your loved ones yeah.

that mother of my child.

who is he a criminal?

No, no, absolutely not. But I mean, you know as well as I investigation can destroy your life for regardless of whether your guilty .

so they threatened the mother of your child in order to get you to plead to things that we're not self evidently crimes correct? What is your lawyers say?

My lawyers are pretty prised by IT. They were they said this inducement was incredibly strong um not something that they've ever done when they were prosecutors and not something that they had expected um you know they said its up to me, I mean they present all the information to you. It's a very odd process for anyone who never gone through an investigation, which I assume as most people here you never speak directly to the prosecutors.

It's all through lawyers who then give you sort of a redoute of what's going on um you know when they lay out your options, right? So if I went to trial IT was a juran new york um i'm a republican heterosexual White mill had accumulated a fair bit money. The jury is not going to love me already um so they did lawyers play that yeah they lay that out you know did lawyers will tell you that even if you are completely innocent, IT is hard to win at trial. The government has all of your demographic .

profile demographic .

profile and the government controlling the entire arraid. You know, people are scared and no one's going to get up and testify. In my defense, they're scared that the government going to go after them if they do know is a big my head was same back and freezed trial, i'm not saying is innocent by far, but you know, I watched, didn't thought had I you know, I if i'd been on the defense for him, a lot of that stuff, which is not accurate, the way they were describing IT.

But no one got up to counter any of the government's narrative because then, you know, you get threatened with more time in prison, like you say one wrong thing on the stand in defensive someone, and they will get you for perjury or your layers to tell you this. So I flooded with the idea of being on the defense for same not because I thought he was innocent of of everything you that they accused but um there is no one up there providing accounting narrative to this narrative that the government had spent up and that's not how the justice supposed to work now so I note this to my lawyers and the lawyers you know said you could face in next to ten years for doing that. Like do you really want to sort of risk that it's clear sam going to lose ultimately and nothing that's wrong but um it's not the way the system used to work. You know the government hands get out of jail free cards if you paid the narrative that they want and then you know everyone who would provide any counterpoint is frightened.

Just it's that's not just us. It's an .

odd version of IT. It's not an american version of IT. It's not the point of our whole american system about IT. Um you know trials also gonna be ten of I think there was eight, ten, twelve million dollars. Uh most of my money was gone on locked up on F T X. So um you know I was Operating from substantially less means and I head before um you know I don't know how anyone I don't know how anyone does IT.

And you can't just gotten get a job.

No, can't gotten get a job. I mean, i'm not going to make ten million dollars overnight to defend myself. So you know and the inducement, I think, was the ultimate decision maker and putting the .

mother of your child in prison.

right? I mean, you can get me to play guilty to anything if that's on the table.

So your lawyers were explicit with .

you about that they will explore yeah yeah they I mean they explained the government's careful right I mean i'll say that I think today or tomorrow and a file an appeal um to my guilty play um because the the government has now continue to pursue uh, the mother of my child despite uh saying they wouldn't if I played guilty so I can use that an attempt .

appeal which they got you to plead by threatening the person you love um with entitled and so you plead on the basis of their promise that they would not her correct not .

even not did not investigate they would drop the investigation or any investigation into her if .

I played what did SHE do .

wrong we are we are not married currently um and we shared finances and ah they're accusing her of also a campaign finance fraud d violation um because our finances commingle to an inner mixed .

so um see your later told you if you do this you're basically doing IT for the mother of your child um SHE will not be hassle.

We'll leave .

her alone. That's correct. I mean.

they went further than that. They sort of put her her case in the cold storage, which you know they didn't ever um plead the fifth during times as he should have. She's also going through a through a difficile divorce proceeding, which is why you're not married, which is why are not married so you SHE should have plead the fifth during things every thought the investigation was dropped into her because of .

this inducement and .

then what happened uh and then we found out, uh I don't know a few months ago that IT is not um they have continued to pursue investigating or they don't the inducement is being real um and they're going to charge .

the inducement being their promise not to do this correct on the basis of which you pleaded guilty, correct to crimes that are not actually crimes correct right? And then so they said they wouldn't hasler and then once you played the entire or anyway correct .

yeah year when a year later, year and a half later.

what do you think they did that?

I don't know. IT doesn't make any sense to me.

So I mean, just if you do out a little bit, if you lie to a federal agent that's fill yes but if the federal prosecution zed to you, it's fine. That's correct. Um and I .

think they know the public narrative around F T X is so terrible, they control the narrative, right? No one talks the media more than the prosecutors in the government, even though they start to lock people up on the other side. If they talk to the media, the government sort of controls the narrative publicly, right? So they know how bad the fg x story is and how little the public wants. Even think about any aspect of IT anymore. Um so I think that evolves them to to sort to do whatever they want.

How much should you spend on lawyers in this process?

I've spent five or six million and totals .

so far on lawyers. correct? So those lawyers made five or six million dollars from you, and yet they broke out what seems like the worst plea deal like in history, plea deals.

Yeah, I mean, they sort of canada as a Victory. I wasn't charged with the central fraud.

This is a Victory. It's fall in the northeast, and that means growth. And I got up at five A M yesterday.

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Was there any suggestion that you could be charged with the central ford? no. In which case I would just be honest with you. I would have much less sympathy because you're involved in a fraud that draw D A million people like that on.

you know, a lot of the government are a lot of, are not a lot of the government. A lot of people just think everyone and F T access invoke in the fraud right there is this public idea that one hundred percent of the employees, the people of the company, must have known and everyone should go to prison. Yeah.

people feel that way for sure. Yep, but there's no hint of that in your case. There's the opposite.

There's literally Caroline ellison who was sort of the central to this entire thing, saying we like to ride and write up until last moment this came up in S B S. trial. Um there's messages related to IT of me .

messaging or election was the girlfriend of sand .

yeah in the city value researchers put her.

how is he in prison?

She's not yet. She's a CoOperator with the government. She's potentially gonna no jail time, no ail we know yet.

It's up to judge. There's no yeah so there's no question that he was involved in his knowledge of the fraud.

Correct correct. He gave a uh interview sort of to the company but you know right after a collapsed noting that I was her garage and sam, that is sort of orchestrated at this large um theft or use of customer funds in an appropriate way.

Okay, but she's as far as you know, not going to prison. You're going to prison soon, correct for seven and half years, correct? And there no one's even claiming you are part of the fraud. But this check who has admitted being part of the fraud is not facing person.

We don't you might go sometimes. She's certainly not going as a right now, as a right now. correct?

What do you think of that?

You know I I don't know .

some level of zen accept here of you enter this .

twilight zone in the whole process eto, where like reality isn't a thing anymore and you either cope with IT or you go mad so um coping with IT.

Now what about um so same bank free so you just listed to the officers of the of the company but same bank man freed was heavily involved with his parents both attorneys once and ethics professor I believe correct um who seemed remarkably sleezy on the bit judging from the from the mails that came to light greedy, pushing for more money, more real estate, whatever and then his brother gave have any of them plead guilty .

anything now no one else was charged outside of the central four and myself and now Michelle l so none of the bank .

man free family has faced any legal consequences from the rect or any .

of the lawyers that advised a substantial amount of this. I mean, in both of my fact patterns, the lawyers were heavily, heavily involved. You know, they make, I forget, was my lawyer that said IT.

But I said, you can go ask your lawyer if you can shoot someone in the head, have them say yes, and then shoot them, right? That's not A A defensive. You can say that little told me I could do this, so I did IT.

But I don't know what the point of the lawyer is then, right? If I go to the lawyer and say, is this sort of M T L. Legal or is this campaign finance what thing we're doing legal? And they say, yes, you know, what am I just supposed to be a lawyer like this is their purpose. This is the whole reason you know, you go to them where you talk to them where you asked them these questions. So um it's frustrating to be in trouble for things that you genuinely try to do legally and feel like you went through out you're supposed to to do them legally also.

I mean, if you you know if you're getting edited for not having the U. S. Government license to transfer the funds of people who are not U.

S. Citizens outside of the united states, like that's insane. Like who would ever imagine the you will be .

invited for that? correct? Yeah I I couldn't imagine.

I mean, could I know could the FBI arrest a driver and abdi for not having A U. S. Driver licence?

Like I think at this point, the government just does whatever he wants anywhere .

in the world think you're on to something. I think you're getting warmer there. Um wow okay so we just that is very interesting who gets punished in this? And i'll just confessed my agrements once again know I read S B S.

Getting twenty five years in prison. It's a long as hard time. I feel feel bad for anybody facing twenty five years in prison, but it's a kind of his closed right at that point. Justice has been done, but I don't see how his family escaped in. Depend, I don't get that.

Yeah I mean, I don't want more or .

people in busy what you do.

but I mean, I don't know how a lot of people sort of avoided this and I don't know how I ended up in the hot seat. Um you know it's it's the republic and donations for sure at this point um but it's very strange and disarmed so what did .

the lawyers tell because seven and a half years and I want to rub IT in, I I feel so sad for you but that well that's real you know it's not six weeks in the drunk tank no.

that's correct. And IT is more time than even the prosecutors requested um so the prosecutors push for five to seven years. We pushed for eighteen months. The sort of standard playbook is typically they'll split that down the middle um seven and hf years is more than anyone asked forks.

how did you wind up with that?

Know the judge read me a whole statement um he sort of indicated to tell the judge was he was judge cabin he had just finished with trumps um I think the geno Carol case I think I was a week after um you know he spent the first half of the comments to me talking about how we dislike citizens united. So I knew I was in trouble at that point.

What did were you involved in the citizens .

united decision? No, no, it's legal. Once IT started there, though.

I knew we are off to this is a supreme court decision, correct? You did not argue that before the supreme court, correct? You didn't work for citizens united.

correct? What does that have to do with you? That's the beginning of, you know him to gamy. He goes into a lanky discussion about how amErica is losing faith in its political system. What he was trying to say.

who is this guy? He's judge.

has been on the bench a long time. Judge caplin, I know this is what I know about him, know throughout the the plea process that you, my lawyers told me what captain in really cares about his acceptance of responsibility. You want to minimize the amount time that you're going to serve.

The most important thing is to just get up, take responsibility on IT, describe how you responsible, apologize, say you'll do Better going forward. So we didn't sort of that's all I did. I I made this whole you know apology speech in everything and am genuinely sorry for all the customers of F, T X. So there's not nothing there.

Um you know it's a real know what happy to them is horrific and haunts me daily um but you know in front of that sort of the the whole speech we put together with gear toward that but captain sort of grab ed all these things that just weren't true and started listen them off to me right so he said I ran to the behavior regulators to save myself that's not true. The behavior regulators emailed sam and I asking what was going on. Same was busy with the collapse the company so I got on with the regulators and told him what I was learning about in real time um but sort of the judge spended that I ran to the behavior regulators to save myself um I did manage to withdraw some money from F T X.

Um IT was before I knew that I was going to be file bankrupcy um so everyone else is with drawing. I also withdrew a little bit just enough to cover legal fees because I know money in the bank. Um he twist ted, that is me sort of getting out before all the customers. I think he said, you know, your point was to how with the customers .

i'll save myself me I ask you weren't .

with that correct?

That is nothing to do with the charges you plan to.

That's correct.

So that's like saying, you know, you were drunk at dinner party three years ago and I found you a noxious, therefore more jail time for you. Like what does that have to do with the the crime?

Yeah, that the whole thing was odd.

the whole experience, but it's insane. And he said this an open court yeah.

this is his final statement to me as he was about to tell me that I was going to do seven and half years um you know he described me as part of the mastermind behind this campaign finances fraud d scheme that we are all involved in um you know which is crazy ah I don't it's tough to tell me you stand there. You're listened to this. You can't say anything why it's the court you know you're in the court room. You're there to listen and then .

he gives a judge to fame respect for people have judge cap of course I don't have no respect sorry um how so you but your law sounds I did not prepare you for this at all no.

that the lawyers expect, I mean, they do. The maximum ten IT was zero to ten is up to the judge almost in discriminately what they want to do. But the standard procedure here would have been to basically split the time we requested and the time the prosecutors requested and at worse, what the prosecutors requested. Um it's almost unheard of to go above even what the prosecutors .

want tiger's apologize to.

No, they don't. They don't. Apple, I mean, they always they're always caveat in the statements, right? It's always IT could go this way I could go that way. This is an exact science .

um where any of the lawyers at F T, X. Change with anything no really IT almost sounds like a system designed by and for the benefit of lawyers i'm just give a hundred .

percent of system designed for inventive with the lawyers. I mean all of IT is um know the bankrupt c teams about to take a billion dollars in fees um for a company that has enough money to pay back customers. That doesn't mean sam did nothing wrong. But there is money in this whole system to pay back customers one hundred and twenty percent and would have been even more um had a number of sort of more intelligent things been done.

Um but the lawyers got to the truth first and install the money themselves.

They take IT. I mean, they keep describing this massive, massive organization with no accountants, no nothing. I mean, that wasn't true.

There was a whole accounting department. The accounting department was hiring more people in the companies. Only three years old was only three years old and just had media growth from basically the beginning.

So higher and people was a catch up. You know, every week you try to hire someone, you got to interview him, they got to come. You're now week behind in work. There is an attempt by every department that I was aware of an involved into higher good people and build out.

can I but you're describing the aftermath and like how do we make the investors hold the this whole scandal was predicated on the fact that investors were defrauded, lost their money because the money was used, that that's the core allegation of the crime, right? right? So the injured party.

is the investors correct? And are the users of F, T, X who had their files on there.

right? The people whose money was taken by fx for IT, okay, but the lawyers wind up with a billion dollars yeah and .

then all of the individuals lawyers that we've hired .

um but why would why would they get a billion dollars that .

in bankrupcy the lawyers typically make out the bankrupcy lawyers make out phenomenally well. You know they kind of have in discriminate ability to do whatever they want directly like .

that's Normal this sounds like a disease that the .

laws wildly horrific um and IT benefits just the the .

parasites the lawyers correct and they also have the power to intimidate .

a lot of people. I mean a lot of people aren't speaking up about the F T X situation because they are still waiting to settle with the bankrupt estate um and so the bankrupcy lawyers in conjunction with the government keep everyone side island.

And by the way, as you just said, no lawyers were indeed so like all the happiness are on the same teams that feels .

like yeah it's a it's a pro. It's a systemic issue um that you know I don't know how IT gets addressed .

so how involved again my knowledge this is just purely from stupid wire stories on IT. But how involved was same bank man for his family in this very involved .

um his mother was only involved in the political side.

How was SHE involved in the .

political size? SHE ran her own political organization I think IT was called mind the gap um and then his father was involved in the company um was part of hiring lawyers, was part of advising on tax treatment. Um know yeah his father is heavily involved .

so the mother was using F T, X money to help democratic politicians. correct? But that's not a campaign ance violation.

I don't know what you want me to say. It's just is so it's just quit.

just parenthetically. It's just one of those stories and i've seen so many and thirty years where you have these perceptions because you don't really know anything beyond what you know. You saw a headline or in the first four graphs and in your time story.

And then when you press little bit into the details, it's something totally different from what you thought I was or what you were told that was. And it's like a complete game that benefits the same people always. You know, the lawyers, the democratic donors, the democratic litigations and the people. And you know, a tragedy like this, tragedy for the investors is hy jacked by these institutions for political reasons. I mean, that's what I see after talking you this morning.

Yeah it's yeah no it's it's terrible to be a part of I mean, you're you're losing everything at once and then you know this whole narrative is being spon up around you that you have no real control over um and then IT just becomes your .

reality or you go crazy i'd probably go .

crazy and i'm bordering on you know my expose i'm right of the egypt so um and tell me and then I want .

to ask about your life and how you wound up in all of this but gay bank and free who see a sam Younger brother .

yeah um and he was actually the one who introduced me to getting really involved of the in politics um he was running a pandemic prevention initiative that was actually IT was a decent idea um you know covet was ridiculous. The shutdowns were insane how I was handled was wild, but and not great.

But what we saw was like a single you thing created anywhere in the world will just spread everywhere and we are clearly not prepared for anything of the matter. So a real biosecurity thread the government is not prepared for. Yeah um and you know cove IT was I think i'm started anyone that lost one before a global pandemic of IT was as light as it's gona get. But that doesn't mean there's not the potential for an actual bio web for shure. Um and so his initiative was to sort of put in place preparations that now get test, get testing of future vaccines now um create sort of ways in the united states, not externally, to prevent these source of things going forward.

That seems like a fine idea is .

a brilliant a there was hundreds of mainly dollars unspent coffee dollars that we're just sitting out there. This was a great use for them. Know they aren't been allocated. It's not new spending.

Um IT was a brilliant idea um and IT really to me he was very is real altruism you know there's a lot of people to do a lot of fake altruism like this was a great idea so this is actually we drove a lot of my a republican giving. He sort of got me excited about um helping with this from the republican side so and then that was all twisted. I mean, that was all turned into, I was only giving to push cyp pto policy, united states 啊， which is just not the .

case at all. Was he political?

yes. Yeah, yeah. Hit a whole thing. There is, there is a massive team of strategists, of campaign finance experts, of everything lawyers.

part of partisan um no one's not really.

There are so SHE with the democratic ty, I think because he was because of his mother, but they're just strategists.

Was the mother partisan?

think? Yes, yes.

Yeah pretty liberal.

yes. You know, I mean the west o stanford.

You yeah and just I never met same bank and free but I look at that kind of like you've got liberal parents. Yes, no, down. yeah.

Um okay, amazing. How did how did you get in for? What's your background? How did you get involved in this?

Uh, the whole company mean, yeah yes so I started as early Young as a tax account uh, at a college really yeah yeah yeah I I got incredibly excited about bitcoin early um I if you were a .

tax account .

as a tax account that is .

to Young ah wow that seems like a very nonza I job .

polar opposite really yeah um no I went to U S. M. Worst and then fell into accounting.

There are because I was good at IT and no fell into the job but you why because I had sort of I work harden yeah push myself forward um yeah so I I bet I found and discovered by coin and I felt love with that I thought was one of the cool things that ever discovered um I thought, you know, in a world where trusting people doesn't always work out as i've learned, trusting math does work. yeah. And the whole systems built, done a math working.

So I thought I was amazing, its global transfer network that works as long as math works, that can be sort of perverted in its base core. A brilliant, I thought I was incredible. So I started publicly talked me about IT on linton this is the time and linked in was becoming a big deal um and a cypher company in boston that needed an account found me and asked me if I go work for them company circle so they run USD c now which is a stable coin. There are one of the sort of older stable coin companies um and they were one of the original companies have an APP that you could buy bitcoin like a sort of vmu. Yes, that was I think fifteen or sixteen.

So you go to work for them as an account.

I go to work to them as someone who's bridging the trading desk and the accounts. So the accounts have no idea what the traders are doing because they don't really understand crypto or sort, uh, looking at the network very well or the exchange data. And you know the traders don't want to do with the accountants because they're making a lot of money trading. No one cares. Of course .

everyone makes fun of account.

right? So I bridge the gap between those two. Um I help them sort to reproduce a full record of transactions that had happened starting in january IT was an absolutely sane on a work um but the trading desk was please because then they could pass on IT. Um and they brought me on the trading this .

full time in boston .

in boston yep. And then they moved me to a hung kong because it's uh, crypto markets twenty four seven so they moved me to hong kong to uh sort of run that not run the desk work on the desk overnight um and that's why I eventually .

met same huh how do you meet same bank and food?

Sam was at a conference um and he was I was just eliminate research at the time and he was eliminator research was headlining the conference with an exchange called baLance, which is the biggest cyp to exchange and now IT really heard of alamein. But for binds to be willing the headline and conference with these people, they had to be a big deal right? Because binds is not gonna some small, irrelevant firm headline of conference with them. Um and so I saw sam speaking on stage. I got a meeting with them um and just you know I knew he was going .

to be successful. What do you think this?

I is brilliant. Um he you know his artistic sort of very autistic um but all he wanted do is work.

What is autistic?

He um social situations are harder for him than the average person um he doesn't sort of I think he doesn't have an emotional spectrum that most people have yes um he you know eye contacts, difficult things like that. So the human elements of the world don't make A A lot of sense. The internet, digital, um you know money making math world is all that makes sense .

to him and said is a hard worker.

twenty four, seven, slept on being bag you know we used have to tell him to go shower because he would started to smell. We would buy a new shoes when you'd wear out. You know the the interesting thing.

how did he respond? Me told me he had to take a shower .

because he's stunk, is that he's fine. He knew he couldn't do these other things. And sort of, you know, people took over and there is almost like a really like a brother ly feeling for you feel little bad for him when you meet you initially just because, you know, you know can be easy living like that, you know, your brilliant one world, but you don't .

forget to take a shower.

just take care.

Interesting, he all he wanted .

do is work twenty four, seven, sixty five. It's it's like he needed IT .

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Did you get once again I ve never met him but um watching video of him, he seems like he's on something. He seems impaired by ARM acuity.

And I had a very strong entire patch. Um I believe I was called an M C M patch um that he had that he would put on his shoulder um and then there was at all around the office, a definite around the .

office is my it's like .

a kind of an atall slightly different ata all um i've think IT was used by like war pilots to stay awake if something like that um yeah there there is a ton of that stuff. It's very common in the tech world. A lot of you know most of I would say most of the generation sub thirty has A A bunch of friends that need that role to Operate the way.

Yeah, there was a time when he was handed out like Candy by doctors. I mean, I they're still attempting to put most kids on at of all I think that show any sort of inability to sit and focus twenty four, seven. So atos, if you have started working in companies in the tech world at ology, doesn't seem strange. I am nothing is a good thing.

I just mean chemically all from yeah .

but they gave IT a kid. I mean, they were given IT when I was Younger. They to put me my parents, thankfully we're like now he just say a little boy no yeah he just got energy because .

he is a boy and IT but IT has all kinds of effects on the brain that in a summer positive you know more mental unity, focus, sharpness, all that stuff energy um but some of them are are very bad over time yeah did you notice the effects I I .

maybe taking at once or twice?

Nobody in the office if you're working in the world or people in on speed all the time, people get jump in, paranoid, have trouble maintaining focus .

paradoxically. Yeah I I don't know if I know I mean, same was always since the moment I met him so maybe he had sort of had a long term use of IT um but no I I don't think I noticed that I mean there there's so much work. There isn't a lot of like communicating around the office.

IT was just sort of twenty four seven jamin keyboards answering things online. I mean, we always at every minute and time for a year I had eighty hours of the work that could be done wow. I mean IT was you know it's a twenty four seven market. You got someone like sam as working twenty four seven.

Um you can hire fast enough um the people you do higher get burned out immediate later you know decide they don't like IT if you take time at your day to hire, there's now a piles of work that's pile up that you haven't done um yeah I mean, there was a couple months early on being there that I don't think I saw daylight every know i'd leave in the dark and come back in the dark seven days a week. Um IT was fun though. You're building like a phenomenal, amazing company in this cutting edge industry.

The markets taking off. So people are reno getting wealthy. IT was fine.

I didn't. I didn't even think of IT. I D look at the calendar. Oh my god, know there sixty days have gone by.

So what about him when you saw on stage made you want to meet him?

He was speaking on a little. So a lot of people, when they present, I mean, don't know this because you seem very honest on stage. But a lot of people, when they talk about the stage.

don't tell the truth. They certainly for sure I parent .

this narrative that isn't real if you're actually in the industry, see good these critical companies and people get up and say these ridiculous, you know, aren't true. Uh, sam got up there and told the truth, said, you know, this companies good. This company's product doesn't actually work. Yi yi eta, he would just say that up on stage. And I thought.

this is great when I grew with that, that is great. yeah. So you go made him he hired ship.

He um he was reluctant to hire me because I was, I think at the time, more useful forum at circle. So I was still at circle. We are doing some O T C trading with his O T C desk. Um but I eventually oc over the counter trading yeah it's just large blocks that don't hit the exchange and you just lock in a Price. You message someone say I wanna buy a hundred big coin, sell hundred big coin, they give you a Price you agree or don't agree and then I moved to settlement. Um that's what I was doing a circle and then I eventually got sam to hire me to run that although um i'd also purchased a lot of his F T T token, which I think helped so he had launched a token for the exchange who's gonna d called F T X send IT out to see if people wanted to invest in IT and I was I purchased a large quantity of IT so much um I like six million tokens .

may be at the time at what valuation five would you get the money I made?

Yeah, I just held crypto o for a while and i'd made good money as circle as well. So so .

you you get hired by sam. Yes, to do what and where do you go?

So I mean, hong kong. He recently moved to hong kong. I get tired to run the over the O T C desk for him um and that's so I did for how .

long my job constantly .

changed there. Um so I think I play ran the O T C desk and I had know at a start up you pick up as many job as you can. It's a sort of anything that's lacking you you try to help out with so um I ran through to c desk but I was also helping get customers on F T X, customer support for F T X when people at issues um you know I was involved on the banking side, uh, because I had the relationships, you know a lot of these nerve I characters don't speak to people well and I did speak to people well. So I took over a lot of the relationship .

based with a designated talker in the office.

Yeah yeah, I was sort of polar opposite of all these people. Um yes, I took over a lot of those transporters. I worked was about a year in that position um and then I was totally burnt out. I'd made a lot of money with F T going up um and so that was the first time I went and tried to um or sent in a resignation letter and what happened .

um sam sent .

me back this sort of incredible letter about how he didn't want me to go. I could do whatever I wanted. Basically you if working too much drops in the um I told him, no, I was still leaving.

But then I went in a meeting with Caroline actually and he started crying that I was leaving and I know that was very sad. You know he was working twenty four seven and I think he knew if I left, he was going to take over all my work. I've never seen her cry before. And so he started cry, if finding out if you can stay and do this, I can pull IT together and stay and do that. So I didn't leave in two thousand nine I tried to .

cut back my the work you had some time to replay .

this in in your head of the 12呀呀 哦 um when I tried to pair back the work I was doing but it's taught you know， if you care about something it's hard to to the less um you know you know things are being dropped. You don't want them to be dropped so you you know try to do them um yeah what was .

curling elson like? She's an interesting part.

You know what are they all like? So first of the effective altruism, and we have been touched on yet, yeah, this is this very like silicon valley, west coast elite parent concept that you, this group of people have, that they are smart enough to solve basically all the worlds problems. And the best thing you can do with your life is work as hard as possible to give all the money away.

Which on paper doesn't sound terrible but there's a lot of things on paper that don't sound terrible that are in the real world like socials in princess yeah um so that's the E A S. And that was the center core of the company. That was some Caroline caring, a shot or effective ultras.

And that's what drove everything in the company. That was the center nucleus. Cold, cold religion. Yeah, very much so.

所以 work as hard as you can to make money in order to give IT away。

Yes, to this big, brainy ideas that H A I or pandemic was, I guess, one of them.

not to the house.

Keep correct, correct. I don't even know .

if they value individual life that much.

To be honest with you. The weird, the effective outrush thing is weird. I hate IT IT. Um why on't .

you a good person? Yeah yeah, yeah.

But there's no one smart enough to solve all the word problems in the moment you think you are. You are the problem.

not the solution. That is. And probably nothing sure has been ordered today.

Read is IT absolutely right. The moment you think you are, you are the problem. Um so how did IT manifest itself this effective altruism? Well.

you always knew I was the sort of guiding light of the company. And you, if you warn an effective ultras, you were never on the inside really right? Like there was they were sort of in charge of everything um and you know you sort of or visit around everyone else or being around them um I guess is how to describe IT .

and would they talk about IT?

They would um a little bit you were there like two A M or something. You know they would be having a conversation about IT yeah they love talking about like weird, weird things like that like A I taken over the world or all those sort of thing.

Was a four A I taking over the world?

They were, uh well so there are different factions of V A. I learned um some are concerned about IT, some are welcoming IT um and wanted to happen sooner um yeah I do yeah .

but the core idea is where the light, where the elite, where the people smart enough to fix the world's problems correct um how are they know what problems they going to fix and how are they going to fix them?

Great question so A I came up and with a big one a lot um you know Caroline had this nudge. You never know it's true if they saying these things or they're just saying them. To hear themselves say them.

But he had this thing where he was convinced A I was going to take over the world and IT was best to appease the A I lords now. So in the future, they won't kill you when they kill off all the rest of the humans. So this is thing you'd say.

like who are the A I lords? I don't know .

you're talking about someone that avoided this as much as possible but occasionally I mean, really ah yeah so this is a theology .

obviously. Yeah it's A I can call .

this the only way to describe IT, really.

So you have to appease the AI lords so they don't kill you, rather killing everybody else.

This is one of the ninety things that they would come up with you did.

Did S, B F agree with that?

Do you think I don't he was definitely yeah he was this extreme effective about tourists. I don't know how he felt specifically about some of the the weirder A I think .

um was he in a personal relationship with Caroline elson?

Yes, I was very IT was kept very quiet for a long time um but then you know I knew her roommate at the time and he told me um that they are in a relationship. but. It's like not a relationship like what you are thinking of. I I mean, these are people that are only cared about working you know no one to go on on dates or wasn't .

like long sunday morning's in bed.

Yeah, I know that stuff. IT was SHE had infatuation with powerful men. SHE blocked Better a lot.

Um SHE always wanted to be around powerful men. And so I think he saw them as a powerful man. Um IT was a powful .

man yeah yeah.

And so he wanted to be around that. He liked SHE one thing we bond IT over, I love the musical. Hamilton, I don't really like musical, but I think that they just did a phenomenal. I don't have you seen IT, no, it's hamilton is great. They did a phenomenal job with IT. And SHE always used to quote that he just want to be in the room where IT happens, which was like this, aron bergen e, you know, you saying, and I want to be in the room where that happens. And so that he always identified with that he just want to be in the room where the .

important decisions are being made.

Parasha SHE is parallel and very open about IT really yeah, like i'm a power worshiper SHE blocked about IT all the time. He would write this sort of blogs online. They were public. They are part of A S, B S. Trial in case.

And so I mean the you know daily mail among you know other the lower forms, the media ecosystem you made a big deal out of. The sex lives of everyone at fx is like living in gently .

groups that no, I mean, I didn't live with them, but I know there no way .

that there were having crazy group sex.

I I think the oh were probably having more fun than what was going .

on in that good. You're making me feel Better because I I don't want to be catty about IT, but you did see some of the players and and .

thinking they should not be made. No yeah yeah I mean and I think part of part of being a sort of west coast you know in lightening is like Polly emery okay idea. They try to rap themselves up into that because that's the cool, sort of elite, intelligent thing to feel. Yes, none of that was going on there.

A lot of them had anonymous relationships they did all day and about eight people I think in the in that paint house um but now you know the media grabs all sorts of fun headlines because that's what IT does then runs of them I mean that's what media is now right just grabbing totally yeah at lines um you know a lot of the story and I I want to Candy out this with a tony people got hurt, lost their life, says over a million people. These are Normal people who don't have a lot of money, who are trusting IT all in F, T. So I wanted Carry out with everything i'm saying here.

Know what F, T, X did. What happened to people is hrihor. And I have to live with that every day. But a lot of the story is just completely been fabricated or or made up.

Did you ever go to the panels where they all lived?

Yes, the same. I was first in the bahamas, so we didn't get to the second time I tried to quit, which was twenty one. I find me that, look, i'm finished.

I'm working too hard again. I have some money. I'm going to go enjoy my life. I'm twenty seven.

I think at the time um you know I was in hongkong at the time, I know so I was like i'm done and you know I keep blaming the lawyers but again, I go to lawyers and I tell him i'm done uh and they say, what can you do us a favor um you know we know you still care about the company, which is true, but the bahamas had recently launched the direct, which was sort of a revolutionary digital asset regulatory framework. Um IT was a Better jurisdiction than a lot of the sort of other jurisdictions that do that. It's not considered an a plus, but it's not sort of a terrible jurisdiction.

Um you know they have a real regulatory body. It's not as sophisticated as a european country or the U S. Or japan, but it's not nothing.

But the CEO needs to live in the country to be regulated there. And at the time, there was absolutely no way sam was moving the company to the bahamas. So k is an island nation.

IT has strong sort of you know they don't want you importing labor, they want you hire. And locally, there's not a lot of housing. It's it's a island, small island.

Small island is you know there's not twenty four, seven food options. There's not there is none of the infrastructure place to run an actual large international organza out of out of the behaves. IT was impossible.

IT was always going to be impossible. But that was not the plan. The plan was I was going to go there, run a small sort of shop I hired know some local people, people, uh, did some philanthropic, went through the regulatory process um in the bahamas.

What's that like? I was fight. So we were working with the regulators to sort of educate them as well. They were eager to really understand and learn about the technology, and they were slowly adapting a building out the framework. But IT was IT felt real.

IT wasn't just sort of this rubber stamp like they wanted to know what was going on, how I was being Operated, what the different components of cypher, how IT was changing. Um you know it's seeing I think to the world is like this fake sort of place in regulating environment, but didn't feel that way um at all like you know we are educating they were putting in place standards. They're trying to make them workable but also monitor um but i'm only there i'm there about two months and i'm basically i'm causey retired.

I'm working like two hours a day know we're doing the fan therapy staff and getting IT all settled there, but everyone else is in hong kong running the company during you know, business hours there. I'm free. I haven't fun.

I was a great place to live. I was in a beautiful community. Um yeah, IT was great. And then two months later, sam visits and and i'm sure .

I should have ask, and what's your job title at this point?

I'm c of F T X digital Marks which is the behavior subsidiary. Um titles didn't have a lot of meaning at f tx nome to they are kind of toaster i'm like Candy to be onest IT was either you work harder, you don't your title doesn't matter um you as I write a laundry list of regrets um accepting a title that had no actual an important title that had no actual real meaning at the time is is one of them sure um but same visits and decide to move the entire company there um basically overnight.

He wants to import hundreds of people from all over the world um into the bahamas to build out a headquarters there. Um I tell it's not possible people on't first of people aren't to be happy, right? These are people leaving cities, viBrant cities there.

Most them are Young, some did have families, but now they want a social setting where they can go out to a nightly b or go out and meet people at whatever they do behm. This is quiet. It's you're not going to get that. So you're going to a get the cold island fever um so I told him is impossible move the company there nothing was ever impossible and sands mind no we just like let's get IT done um and so all this i'm back to working twenty four seven only now i'm working in like the real world we're buying condos to house people in were you know bringing in people to cook twenty four seven so there was food available or modifying the structure of buildings to house more employees. Yeah, I just IT became my .

hama N F T X pen on real state in the mas a half .

a billion to maybe seven hundred and fifty million million. How could you spend seven .

hundred fifty million dollars in the bahamas on real state?

I mean there so there's two types of real state. Basically, there's very little ddd class in the bahamas. You have sort of this ultra wealthy section of the island which is mostly people from foreign countries avoiding taxes and then you have sort of the impoverishment which is um downtown, which is downtown right um we couldn't put employees in downtown NASA um and so the available housing was extremely limited.

Um we also were worried about security um food and all these very sort of things. So winded up pivoting towards one of these sort of large, very um wealthy areas called albany um they knew we were buyers of a lots of they would up the Price very quickly. I actually begged one point, I begged all me to stop selling sam real estate but they just obviously ignored me because they were making no and in send him money but a house in all body might be worth four hundred or fifty million dollars.

forty or fifty million. Yeah.

yeah. Condos were, I think, fifteen to thirty million on average.

Oh, this was totally fake money at this point.

Like that F T account me, you're spending. yeah. I mean.

if you're spending fifteen million dollars on a condo in the bahamas, I mean, that's just absurd untethered from .

a trip and more of a red flag. I mean, I can try to justify IT. There's not great justifications. We made just so much money at alamein and I was there.

I mean, we made unfathomable outs of profit at alameda um that relative to what we'd made at the time that I was aware of that didn't see that crazy and hints. Now it's absolute ridiculous excuse me. Yeah but you know when you witness a company make two to three billion dollars in profit a year. I just didn't see, you know, sorry, I shouted, been happening and I didn't want the company in the bahamas in the first place. So there that but I didn't seem crazy that, that money was available to .

be spent on the basis of like what was if if you part of demo question, what was the money for? Like what what are you providing that you were making two billion and profit in a year?

Yeah you are buying and selling crypto L I mean, you know you can look at some of the large hedge phones value is kind of and provide uh you know .

what value does kenric fd will he moves the republican party toward endless war? I think that .

I just bad his H I as far as i'm concerned.

kenric fin provides negative value to the world um but the .

trading the trading community should .

be edited at some point for saying that but .

I think IT the trading community makes a lot of money and you know what is what is the purpose of buying and selling all day long? I don't know.

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When I was a kid, liberals who have always disliked my whole life, I just say that, but they used to say, like, we live in a world where, you know, teachers and carpenters don't make any money and out of shot up. But now i'm sort of like a little bit more sympathetic to the idea that I don't know your society should reward people who do useful things.

Yeah, no, i'm not. I'm not knocking that I with you, but we were .

the money was coming in. Uh, it's interesting though. So they I mean, did you think I was weird that you're making that much money profit in more in .

crypto though it's commit become the norm to be in crypto. Do see people become phenomenally wealthy. Um so is IT Normal the real world? No but encrypt. There are sixteen year olds that made one hundred million dollars of a lucky investment. Um there's so much money slashing around in the crypto e ecosystem all the time that no, I did, I didn't so i'm such a primitive .

person that I don't trust anything digital. So if I made you know one hundred billion dollars in crypto to whatever that is, I would immediately cash out and buy like stuff. Yeah, what do you do with the money that you made?

Basically, everyone kept IT. So I had been given some advice. That was very good advice, and I didn't followed towards the end. But you keep the money fake online and then you don't start to get wrapped up in this world of being wealthy um and so a lot of people just keep you know there are people that are like living in a big bag with fifty million dollars in cypher um and it's sort of fake as long as you leave IT in script so so i'd left most of IT in critter for a long time um you know nineteen, twenty, twenty one IT was wasn't til I moved to the bahamas really that I started to want to cash out, you know get more involved in real .

world things so what did you buy in the real world?

Yeah um I bought a some restaurants so doing covered. I got some restaurants back in the home, my hometown area. I knew some people, england, the birchers um you know they were gna close.

I'd friends that worked with them or family that worked at them um and wanted to support the local ecosystem. There are cruel. I bought some count well yet now everyone anyway, I bought some condos in the downtown as well because a lot of people turning them to airbed bees. So people to have a place to live, and is a very small downtowns, like two blocks of the city town, western mass. But B, N.

B is really rect united states. yeah. And especially .

small towns and .

a small towns, yes.

but I kept them all apartments. We fixed him up a lot of the old buildings. Um I had a body that was super into space sex.

And so we bought some of the properties that were really close to um the place in texas that elon graded and we're turning them into, you know we just talk to we're turning them in the airbnb s for watching uh, the space x stuff, which was going pretty cool wow. Um it's in rental properties. New hampshire.

I did buy about a nice car because there is a there is a race that you can do. It's like a five day. It's called the gumbel and the body mind was doing IT.

But I had have a nice car for gub still exist as a cool. We describe IT for people don't know .

what IT is luxury car race, america, across amErica or across eugh europe and all really did middle ast last time, I think. And yeah, you start in one area and for five days you drive to the next area and have some event everyone else is doing IT. So we started in canada and then drove down, uh, and the idea was to get down to florida. But machine, I stopped half through.

But kind of vehicle.

did you do a porch I actually bought here? You want? I want to make myself sound real stupid right now. I accidentally bought an electric ports first. So the porch tie, and they don't say electric on IT, you know most EV cars or electric cars as they say electric. I stupidity bought an electric car which you couldn't use for gamma l no.

not for a road rally.

I know doesn't not a great look for me, but and so ended up with the nine seven for the road rally. Was you on IT was fun? Yeah, it's fun.

I'm not. Yeah, it's fun. I don't know. I'm not into luxury purchases as much. Apparently.

you're not if you're buying condos in the berkshire and rental properties in the hampshire that you don't you didn't spend on hookers and cocaine.

Now I mean, we party, I had some fun. I mean, that was another big problem for me. I think like on the backdrop of the hyper E A erds that never left the office like i'd go clubb um know I would have a party when we drink and have fun so um I did send some spent money on having fun for sure um not hookers in the caine .

but you're in account who are started IT did Young and you are on the zenie edge of the office.

Well, I was at F, T.

X. Like you were one of the more social people .

there a day. I mean, I I would be the most social person.

So the account is the crazy guy in your office. You ve got a pretty subdued office.

Yeah, IT was just people that had this weird E. A. They were working twenty four, seven. And then that I was IT.

Yeah, did you hang out with them .

at all a little bit? I like to hang out different types of people, and so I I would hang out with them. Caroline used to do these things. Um got I know if I should admit this.

He would do these things called larks live action role plays where SHE would write these scenes that were occurring and then he would make a character list of different and SHE design a different person like a role. And your job was to sort of just flow around and figure out like what your objective was in the game. Um IT was weird, but I was kind of fun.

I was really amazing that Caroline could write these. But fully closed, yes. Fully closed. yeah. I was by the only one drink, ginger, like two of us were, have a drink.

wow. SHE would write, live action, role place. Like.

yes, nothing I ever would .

have done in my life. Did you ever you like .

the native nurse? Or what was one of them? I don't remember what they were. I know like I was nuts IT was wear but I would do that that was like once or twice, you know um so I would do these events at his apartment where he would like cook the shea's vegan and food have ever tasted my life so I would do that once or twice um but it's just not my scene you know they're playing board games.

Just sounds like the weird office culture ever IT .

was bizarre. I mean, it's little tech world though I think the tech world is a little strange in that way um but this having this ea component as well made IT even weirder um yeah how did they .

treat you said, when you're describing effective altruism, they didn't care about human life for people how how did you reach that conclusion?

Everything's E V, are expected value. And I want to blow my brains at every time I hear that now. But every decision is evy. So what is the expected value of this situation? And I think I mean, I think capelin touched on this a little bit during the sentencing with sam.

Um you know, if you could flip a coin and there's a fifty one percent chance that I don't know everyone lives happily forever or a forty nine percent chance that everyone dies EV flip the coin right? Like, wow, that kind that's a very extreme. I am like taking a very extreme example but it's constantly looking at chocolate.

the likelihood benefit .

correct correct and making decisions based on that. Um and sam did IT for everything. You know Michael lois touched this a little in the book.

Um yeah sam did IT for everything. It's not for running yeah for running a company with proper structure. It's not terrible like it's a good way to make some decisions and for sure you can't run everything like that though.

Yeah no, it's important. Calculate likelihood right I think. But I mean the acid test for decency is how do you treat the people you you know, who like panda on you, who you control, you know, how do you treat your housekeeper yeah and how do they do by that measure and they .

just wouldn't interact with the housekeeper.

would be the only .

really of yeah the yeah I didn't really interact with like many people interaction wasn't that thing did they?

It's into because they are all politically liberal. Obviously, in the bahamas is a poor majority black country where they do not want to help the majority of our people in the bahamas.

No, I did a lot of flying to the bahamas, and I was there. So I think everything is twist ted with this terrible right now. But we are doing a lot.

We did a toy drive during the holidays to some of the islands that were hurt during doran. I fall in love with the bahaa. I found in love with the culture there.

the people, incredible.

positive 的， you optimistic. I I love everything about certain being in the bonus. So I did some philanthropic ked there, but the company really didn't do a lot there. So there's tx foundation that was doing more in uh like the U S. Um that actually joe sams father ran, joe bank man um and then sam had the sort of big brain E A stuff that he was focusing on as well, which is your ai AI climate .

was at a big climate wasn't .

because climate was getting enough attention. So part of the E A thing is also very important things that weren't getting enough attention. Climate got a lot of attention. So this was their explanation for why.

So AI what else like what .

were the other problem? The pandemic sort of was really ah those the two that I remember yeah .

did you ever get the sense that they were helping anyone？

A good question. There was an issue. So the shan sam had an issue with so new your idea is make as much money as possible to give IT all away. When do you start giving IT all away? And after all of your desires .

have been stated?

So the shot thought, look, we've made enough money. We've made a lot. Let's start doing some of this.

Actually asked of, I think in sam's mind, he had even begun making money. I know this sounds crazy. He does.

So he's a billionaire, but he's not rich enough to actually give IT away.

correct? I think he always we know we never celebrated milestones of the company like when something was achieved. Same treated like IT hadn't even begun.

There is no sense of achievement ever know. I would host some celebrations when amazing things happened, and sam would reluctantly get involved for a few minutes. But in same dream world, you never, there is no celebrating. Nothing was ever done enough would always more could be done um so you know kind of childhood this guy I have you .

know his mother wrote a letter .

where he talked a little about how he doesn't feel happiness SHE doesn't think he's ever felt or is capable of feeling happiness. I I don't know my god, Lewis talked a little bit about his child that that I never talked to him about his childhood.

Anything like that you ever deal with his mother a little bit?

Um we are she's more similar to say and I think like i'm not the type of person who enjoys being around and I want to sit down and have a for our intellectual conversation right try to prove that i'm smarter than you that's it's not my idea of a good time so um you know we didn't interact but I think SHE didn't .

love social settings are like at least someone .

like me um so not much SHE sounds awful yeah I don't know that well you know it's she's like an ethics professor and her son goes and does something like this like media GTA got a have a few question Marks there .

yeah I think you do um the lot us was playing out against the backdrop of the twenty twenty election. So what did what do they think of trump? Do they .

think of biden? Um his mother was very involved in getting by elected. I believe we'd had i'd heard stories about IT um the yeah I think her I think mind the gap did a lot and don't I might be wrong and that I think mind the gap did a lot in georgia that ultimately flip IT blue for biden um so yeah yeah I think that's true um i'm not one hundred percent sure mrs.

Bank men free the ethics professors using money and because she's not independently .

right right no not not what sam was right.

Um did any of them as money go to that effort do you think? Yes yeah I think .

sam wired ten, ten, twenty million maybe more .

interesting to get by elected but he's not he's not facing any campaign and charges.

No, he didn't get .

hit with the campaign finance the story may you get into the details. What do they think of trump?

They did not like trump um they had this wild idea to try to pay him off to not run um and I just said, I don't want to be a part. I think it's quoting the news. They had this idea to try to pay him five billion dollars to not run .

um who say him .

in his brother gave and there there is like more of these sort of E A political strategist.

people that would be a election and interference and bribery.

As for as I know .

yeah I was you are they facing charges for that? No um because I think in like a first world country driving people um in the political system, including not to run, would be a felling like a major family that would be converting to see I think would be the terminal use. Yeah that makes sense.

Yeah so but no charges there. Yeah interesting. Will you wear of that at the time?

Um I had a brief ly IT had come up and I just said I don't want to be a part of this like I please. I also wanted him to way I I involved did they .

know that you disagreed politically?

Yeah yeah I mean, that was part of, you know I don't want to make this out like I had no association with them at all like gave got me excited about the pandemic work right and so I got involved on the pandemic work. Um yeah that's not illegal but um so I was aware of some of the stuff that was going on but not most of the behind the scene stuff and I wasn't in the E A. I was never in the E A world even sort of publicly mocked the E A. So you .

really didn't like.

yeah I didn't there a few us that really didn't um the only thing I liked about ea was that would bring workers in that worked twenty four seven because they had a higher purpose like there was a higher purpose to why they were working and so they wouldn't get burned out as easily um so that was the only thing I like when E A started working. They worked twenty four, seven, three.

six if just the personality type seems so kind of classic early bolshoi c to me yeah you know that mean, you're you you're bringing about utopia in the world. So actual people don't matter. You're involved in something much larger than yourself.

So IT gives a purpose and a framework to your life. Yeah, IT inspired E I in the early bosh x work like animals. I mean, they did to their great credit. I mean, they were really hard workers .

yeah and when it's written on paper doesn't sound as bad .

as IT turns out no right? Well, that's exactly rate. As you noted, socialism doesn't say no everyone.

Everyone is equal. What's wrong with the quality? nothing.

I mean, even seems whole thing like on paper at all sounded find in the end millions of people lost all their rn right?

Yes, Better than ukraine famine. But still it's it's a right to the same tree. So did sam ever decided that he'd made enough money to start giving in a way? No, I don't think so.

I mean, there was I think in his my well, sorry, let me Carry out that in his mind some of the political worker was doing was giving IT a way to these bigger um initiatives. Um so I think that that was sort of a little bit but no, not to the tune of what you'd expect from someone who that's their ideology.

So IT sounds like the bank man fried help get by the elected twenty for sure I mean same as one of .

the largest democratic donors I .

am this is just this whole conversation is just me trying to make you feel even worse about what happened. I'm sorry, sorry. I feel no.

I'm just shot by IT. Actually, I shouldn't be but they were definitive players in in a contested election that I don't think for the record. Once again, sorry, youtube was legitimate. I don't think that this is another example of how was your legitimate. But whether you believe the results or not, they were huge players in getting to biden elected and you're the one who's facing prison for campaign .

ance violation. React yes.

I mean that just absolutely nuts. Did um when they mentioned paying off trump five billion dollars not to run do do you know if anyone approach trump the campaign about that?

I don't know that's that you never knew they were just spitting out wacky ideas. I mean, I think they also had this idea to buy like an island and try to make IT like just their laws and their rules. No, it's just like they always have these crazy things. You never knew which how real something was and what .

was just the rules? Beyon bank free time, I do know.

Yeah yeah, yes pretty weird.

Right yeah yeah what? He was vegan.

He was vegan.

Yeah um why animal .

cruelty? He didn't like the idea of an animal suffering or yes yeah. I mean that's something that I think is definitely he stayed vegan now, right? He's swim away and nothing in prison.

So you, a lot of people said this whole E A thing was fake. At least the veganism, I would say, is real. Cause now would be the time to .

drop the stick if IT from scription IT sounds like the opposite of fake IT sounds like a sincerely episode religious belief that sound like a cold and sounds, yeah, did you think I was real?

That I think was real. There is, I think, a public perception in the world that was all just a show that he put on to try to raise more money. But I I don't believe that I think he genuinely .

one of the mysteries for me is a total outsider watching us, you know, from a far is how investors could meet sam bank man fried, who was like a child rocking back in fourth, jumpy stinky, wherein cargo shorts, and think I need to give that kind money.

Yeah, I mean, I can knock that. I was enroll by him when I met him. I mean, there's something about, there's about his work ethic, the way he describes things he consort of, to bring you in to to the way he sees her feels about things.

Um he had a track record for a long time of being very about things. Um you know there's this there's this kind of world where there's like I idealized sort of central figures at companies. yes. And they are either wildly successful or not, right? You not his some begging freedom m and homes is is elon moscow men or Steve jobs, right? So there's this sort of central tech single person that you follow and have a lot of faith in concept that pays off handling or dozen and IT seems to really only go one where the other. So um I think everyone's trying to find that next elon mask and sam had a ish vibe that I could be him that such a smart analysis .

I don't not my world, but I just feel that you're absolutely right that a lot of these places are effectively called personality and um IT does seem like a very collaborative business tech actually. Yeah yeah right. But in case after case with the zr burger member, the old people you listed one person is all the credit.

IT does feel that way. Yeah yeah. And IT either goes well or, you know, IT either goes too well or too, too poorly.

So when things started to fall apart, um what was your reaction? What was Carolin ellsworth reaction? What was reaction?

yes. So I had I had resigned from the company in june. Um what you of twenty two so before I collapsed, but a couple other people had just resigned and I didn't we didn't want the publicity of another. Why did you resign? I'd tried to leave two years ago.

I mean you i'd moved to the bombs to get away from everyone that everyone showed up um so I left the bahamas for dc to get away from everyone to get uh so and then the whole purpose of me being C E O is because the CEO wasn't actually live there but now sam was living there so he could be the, you know he was the actual yes person in charge. He could be the C E. O on paper if he was going to live there so um yeah I mean, I was done again .

so you resign did you when you resign, did you have any incline? The company was in trouble?

no. IT seemed, I mean, it's look at looked that sounds crazy. Now IT seemed impossible. I mean, sam was quoted in forms worth forty billion dollars. Um I had watched the alamito make billions and billions of dollars. F T X is a very good business that was making about a billion a year in revenue. Sam launched multiple cyp to projects that had taken off. Um you know, I got my first ever death read when we wouldn't sell someone more p launched token that sam had just launched right he was selling sort of early release of a token called maps crazy token idea um and was .

the idea IT was maps .

like your map, google map service or whatever offline on the blockchain .

what okay. Yes.

there's no more to say about that. Everything you're thinking about that is one hundred percent.

Why I don't even say what is .

that because IT doesn't make sam launches. That is like selling IT off to people and we told someone they can buy anymore. And some guy threatened to like kill my whole family if we wouldn't them.

I mean, this is how people were clamoring to be involved in anything S B. Have touched. So um ah the idea that there would be significant financial troubles like this just seemed impossible. I mean, in high sight now I understand because .

we just so hot there was so .

hot there were so I mean everything you know, I seem like to pull the bug out and sold to someone for one hundred million dollars. I mean.

it's how interesting human psychology never changes.

doesn't it's read over? Yes.

but really is everything's the tool upgrades everything and it's just but it's funny because silicon valley had this you know massive valuation bubble in two thousand web van and e toys. You know all these kind of fluter, Chris, companies want under and people really suffered as a result and then IT happens again yeah fifteen years later yeah I mean.

cypher crypt has done a lot of these up and down so it's it's not quite too up and that IT was up and and down, of course same as a figure head type person is going to happen again and again and again.

interesting. So where were you when you realized the company was an actual trial?

Um I was at a bucket ears game, uh watching time brady play in um in fda and what how .

do you find out? So the baLance sheet had .

leaked the sort of infinite baLance sheet about a week before, I want to say had leaked and IT was alone as baLance sheet. Um and what IT showed was that alameda had basically been borrowing from a tonal enders with questionable assets. So they had a bunch of assets on their books that were tokens that sam himself had created and then went out to lenders and they went to him. Now when that broke, my first thought was our lenders are screwed.

Well, that's so funny. You read my mind .

that's I don't know how much fault like everything was very transparent with lenders. There was no desire to known as hiding anything from the lenders they wanted to end um they had to keep showing new originations so they could show that they were growing. You know everyone talks and ripped like were building this huge c system, but everyone wants their share the pie to be the largest right you know it's um baLance used to love to say like let's all pick each other up and then baLance would crush little company so I can get bigger AIDS business. It's i'm not knocking IT, it's but the lenders wanted to be the .

what kind of lenders .

when you say lenders genus cius, they're all shockingly um genesis celsius block fy blockchain dog com. I miss seeing couple they are all cyp tilers um and they're all yeah they're all holding people's assets for them and then lending them out and providing a return. Um you know this sort of collapse of over lending is also repeated itself over and over again.

So the cyp to industry was just a large micro cosme with that. But this baLance sheet leaks that shows basically genesis, but a couple other lenders been lending. I mean, I am talking in eight, ten, fifteen billion dollars to aleta against what I know, inarguably questionable things to be lending against. So my first thought for .

maps on the blog, jay, yeah.

yeah, you know, I made a joke. IT was like a hamster. Almeta was like luck. We got a hamster. Which can we borrow fifteen billion um but they were doing IT with other firms through so three areas as another trading firm.

I mean they weren't even preparing financial that turns out they were were just borrowing billions from these lenders anyway. So this I could go on forever with this bt, the baLance sheet leaks and my immediate reaction is not that F T X is in any trouble. My media reaction is our lenders are in a lot of trouble for this. Um but then the sort of rumor starts to come out that um F T X is have customer funds like it's the the baLance sheet to some people somehow revealed that that F T X didn't have the customer funds. And I think a lot of that was driven by bints, the sort of competitor which was sams argument um but so I met the buck nears game. I send this message that's been quoted now with like in sam trial I send a Caroline hey, can F T X me all drolls um SHE doesn't tell me yes or no SHE testifies that he goes back and ask them whether they like be behind est with me or not um so it's over you know IT is very blind .

in my mind how so for a baseline, how old is he at this point?

Thirty, twenty nine, thirty, everyone's no one's older than that, accept the lawyers were involved, are all adults and had a for .

this just pure profit like they're off doing their lower crime somewhere else. But they just pocked with the money and they were never indeed or hassle by the FBI.

Anything I don't know the experience theyve all had um but they are not trouble.

Sorry, just I can't keep payment ing that enough.

It's it's an interesting aspect tivat. There's a lot of documentaries coming out about F T X, and that seems to be a central point that a lot .

of them are focusing in onto the layers. Skated.

yeah, almost impossibly so, given sort of public information. You know, I thought I was weird. I know you're going to me.

but are going to prisoner .

whatever I thought the the government and other people laid out the exact my defense, right? So like dan freeburg, the general council for alamito put out his own statement saying that he was in charge of all regulatory affairs at alameda like that was in his words that he stated that um you know that where's .

where is freedoms? G in prison .

now no is not he's not charged. Um you know the government noted I was worth hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars so but i'm just choosing to make this a crime like I thought my defensive been laid out by other people in like an odd way um that no one seemed to care about but you know .

and get IT so you read the box game, you text calling can we we you can do you have the money there .

are these rumors true basically? Um I don't remember you know IT starts to become apparent. They are, remember, I think a day later, uh, his name's jane tacket. He worked F, T, X. And he sends me like, do, this is a complete un joke.

There's zero money in the, uh, cold wallet, which is a crypto term for basically where all customers money should be, you know and I wrote him back something like ha ha that's not possible. It's got to be somewhere um and he was like no do there's no all the customers money is is not where it's supposed to be um and so then you know IT becomes more real in that moment. I fully you know maybe I am just in denial. I wasn't appreciating the money could be gone like where to go, right? Like sams not off buying.

You know he bought hazard for the company, don't get me wrong, but he's not out there blowing hundreds, millions dollars on his own personal life, right? Everything is somewhere in the stem that is same system where is IT um and then IT becomes clear um I don't remember when IT is all public so if I I don't want to grow up and say this day and IT was actually the day before but um sam drops the ventures book into a chat um which is all of the money that he has spent in F T X ventures um F T X eventual was A V C R M that he launched about a year before and he publicly said he was putting a billion dollars into IT um and we all you know is work forty billion four I I knew IT this money in my mind was somewhere so it's fine um but then he drops his ventures book into this chat that I mean which is now infamous informal chat called small group chat and he says, hey, can anyone sell this ventures book or start selling off some of IT to meet the liquidity needs? I opened the ventures book and I scroll and scroll and scroll got to the bottom and there was like six, eight billion dollars of F, T, X.

Ventures investments. And they click to me. That's where the customer as money was. He has sort of taken what I think happened. And I think a lot of people don't think this is the truth.

But in my mind, sam had taken all the money from alameda that he's borrowed from genesis and he when when trip to tank or started going down and they were not making as much trading, he ported into a ventures s book. And then eventually the lenders recalled all those loans and sand and have the loans because he poured IT all into the venture book, which is way you can turn into the cash. And so he went until customers far.

any of those investments hit.

yeah, a bunch of them did great, actually really good. He was a fan. I mean, that's why customers being paid back so much anthropic alone. I think he made um like five hundred percent on um no they were great, a lot of a great that's .

interesting. I didn't know any of this. So um not a defensive same thing.

No, it's not to do. I would be clear it's not that you can do that.

But um do you think you know net net is his senior business that was that was like a smart move ah that wasn't .

with with the lenders money. yes. Here's what I think should happen though he took all that lenders s money and put IT in adventures and then when he couldn't repay the lenders, he should have gotten on the phone and called them, said, sure, what do you want to do here?

Like I got this vendor's book. It's not a bad book, do you? I mean, I could file bankrupcy if you want. I can give you guys the ventures. Like how do you want to say?

Yeah, because we know once you take that much from an institution famous. Ly, yeah, you know you ve got some power.

Yeah, correct. Your almost. He became too big to fail if they didn't use IT.

Interesting why I don't know. I think about .

that a lot know, and that if what i'm telling you've turns out to be the correct story, I think I was so uninvolved in the world, really, because I plead guilty to something associated with this. The world really wants me to have been heavily involved in this, because sam brought me to a group chat, but I hadn't been aware of what the company was doing.

If you have been involved you in the day as soon.

yes, I know government would first.

Yes, right. And so I think we don't need to guess about that. I mean, you went through the process, you're headed to prison and you haven't been charged with or plead to any crime related to the fraud. E, F, G, X, that's correct. Yes, I know it's create.

They had me involved. They threatened bank fraud, which is um but they I was C C on an email between general council and the bank and sam that a was a bank application um that they argued did not completely articulate what that bank account was supposed to be doing um so they they dangled bank flad as a potential but there there's .

no email from you saying, hey, let's take customer money and spend on things no no .

and I think the bank fraud accusation is one of the most crazy actually but that's you know I didn't plead guilty to that.

interesting. So at this point, when you're um texting back and forth with people who are still at the company and you hear that there are no no you give no there's no money. Do you do you think i'm in trouble?

No, I I really didn't think. I mean, I knew I was about to have a half you know year to ahead. Um yeah but no, I didn't think I was going to be in trouble.

I had most my money on the platform. Like if I knew this was a fraud, I would have my money on the platform. I at all times thought I got the right people involved um I got lawyers involved. I thought I was necessary you know I thought the decisions that I had made to the entire time I was there were the reasonable correct decisions um so you know I knew there there can be a lot of action interaction with the government um but now I did not expect that any legal trouble .

so when did you find out your own trouble um .

let's see so we are preferring which forever doesn't know you the lawyer you tell the lawyer stuff and they go to the government and talk about IT and then the government comes back with questions and then you answer their questions. And so there's this interaction between lawyers and the prosecutors um about everything you have and know and want to share. And so I was doing a couple of those and I thought everything was going well. I think this was about january, maybe february um so it's yeah this is four on fish. After the collapse um you know I had sent off my cell phone for like two hundred thousand dollars to be completely downloaded image and sent to the government .

for everything .

they needed what IT cost two grand recommend the firm you use them. Um but the FBI showed up at my house one day. H I was early morning. Um you know I answer the door in my bathrobe. There's police everywhere as try thirty armed agents that at the entire house surrounded with the salt right pointed at me there was some guy with a battering RAM obvious see a guy with a mega phone yelled at me um and without any warning no in fact the .

lawyers were you know I asked the lawyers .

as someone to as the police ever going to show up the house and they said that almost certainly not you. We're CoOperating with them. We're giving them everything they want.

Um you're answering questions. We don't expect that to happen. Um but they they did they were there. They seized my cell phone um and Michelle cell phone.

They came with a battering RAM and automatic rifles to take your cell ones.

Yeah, a lot of cruiser. I mean, he was really nuts. Then they held us in the car is all the school buses went by, which was uh infuriating.

So the FBI shows up at your house rather than just calling your water and saying, hey, we know you've image your cell phones already at the expensive two thousand thousand dollars would like physical possession in your cell ones. They show up with multiple cruisers, automatic weapons, a battering RAM. You're at home with your child.

I think, and your pets, pregnant, pregnant, great.

perfect and um they show up and then throw you a cruiser yeah they held us in the cruise.

Er for what they were very upset. We'd brought our cell ones out with us. Um I think they had this grand image of like trashing my house, I think is what a lot of these guys wanted to do.

Um they certainly to enter the house. I could hear them discussing they were up. They couldn't enter the house.

We'd had our phones with us when we went outside so they had no justification to enter uh, the house anymore so they held us the cruiser for a while. I could hear some back and forth Bobby upset they couldn't go in the house. Ah you know all the school buses are coming by, which was unfortunately.

And then once the school buses were that they let us go back inside the house, um you know it's still I mean being with that your cell phone and all of the sudden is hard. You know those people trying to get touch, you get touched with the lawyers and things like that. So um you know you to run down to the store by a new cell phone, but IT was the government sending a message? You know we don't we don't believe, you know we have a different narrative and you know you're facing the government right now. So get line.

But again, the only purpose of sending guys with automatic rifles in a battery is to intimidate you. correct? You're an american citizen and that .

embarrass you. I mean, the neighbors see it's loud. It's yeah.

but treat you like garbage. You've not be convicted anything.

Not only that, but I thought to that moment, we are being very CoOperative. I mean, I had, you know, there's this sort of narrative out there that I refused to CoOperate. The deo ja wasn't giving them what they wanted. That's not true. I immediately CoOperated.

You know, I replied to the behavior government when they emailed me and I was offering the D O J what I had um I just I don't think what I had drives with their story of how things were in the narrative that they were able to create and so they weren't you know they allowed to they're very careful with IT. So you know I don't want to accuse them of being not accute but like they're not outward with this but they throw the proferred. You can kind of tell what you're able to say that would help you save yourself a little bit more. Um they tell you directly but described this campaign ance in a different way or you know how how does this reconcile? They sort of tell you they are narrative um through the questioning and it's your decision if you play for all or not and I just decided I wasn't gonna e to the government to save .

myself um like I feel .

some other people have in this situation. So um I don't think well look, I know in shah did not think he was committing campaign finance front. I know that for a fact um you know the idea that people worth hundreds of millions to billions of dollar ars can be straw downs just doesn't make IT doesn't cross your mind um you know i'd had um when we're shell rain for congress I had foreign that would text me and say, hey you know all send you fifty box you could put in your campaign and I reply now that's illegal or that we can take for the money I appreciate the offer um or even you know U S. People will be OK you know I just then know that you can put IT IT no you can do that.

That's you're speaking the mother of your child who rained for congress correcting new york yes um didn't win and is now in trouble for taking money from you or something unclear exactly right .

for us having commingle finances and her work for f tx. Not being real yeah.

Yeah.

so sorry, sorry.

I just have to point out there again, I shouldn't be saying any of this if you had even been accused of participating in the core fraud here, but you haven't been even accused of that by the government. So but but you did give to republican candidates.

yes. And I was associated with F, T, X.

Yeah, yeah. Well, a lot of people were who haven't been ended. I mean, right in our system, if you know this. But the people commit, the crimes get ended. People haven't community crime to that's the promise .

of the system. I'm not sure I I am not sure I believe I and .

that's why this is a fast ending interview. But I I used to believe that. Did you believe that?

Yeah, I held up great until very recently believing that, you know, I even tried. I'm, i'm not, i'm not a victim. I will never be a victim.

I don't consider myself a victim. I chose to listen to the lawyers. I made the decisions that I got. So I don't want, I don't want this narrative to be that I feel like i'm a victim of something and I I go out my way to make sure I don't have that feeling um so I constantly tried to spin in my head to make IT more the narrative events that I know isn't true, but I am constantly tly trying to get there to make this all make sense. So you know I had a lot of IT. I don't dislike the legal system or have that strong of issues with IT until I sort of saw what I saw um and saw how a place out. I mean that well, I I I think .

you're taking the right tack emotionally. I think it's very destructive to think of yourself as a victim. I think the democratic party destroys millions of lives by ging americans in certain groups to think themselves as victims. I agree with two hundred percent, but as a factual, marry you are a victim because the crimes which you play guilty or not, crimes for my read of I I don't understand how those are crimes.

S IT doesn't any sense at all if you're borrowing against your own assets and then you take that, which every rich person in the world whose invested in low basis equities, for example, does, then every person. That money that you get from that loan or anyone is yours. It's yours.

And if you don't eat some of that to political candidate, you're not a straw donor for the person. I'll give you the money. I mean, that's like up that's crazy.

Yeah, I agree. I think so you are .

a victim and that's that's that's like not a crime is to construe that as a crime is like itself a mischaracterize ce in my opinion.

Yeah, I think I think IT says a lot of why there is an inducement, right? There's no need to make an induced ment to get someone to plea if you have a good case or or during guilty, right? You only bring up an inducement because you know, you know this person is not believing or getting to the same place you want them to get to.

right? So I threatened your family.

It's more common than you d think diversity blues case, you know. And a lot of the reality is people don't have sympathy for wealthy people, right, which is fair. I'm not arguing there's plenty people that have sympathy. And so when there's a misjustice to someone with money, a lot of the world just like.

well, I am a wealthy person, I guess, for relatively speaking. And I intensely dislike rich people, even though i've been on my own wife really.

But yeah, i'd dislike them a lot because I think the'd been terrible leaders of our country um and I else just I just don't like them personally so I get that I absolutely understand that biased bigotry but but the system itself should should guard itself from bias and bigotry just because you don't like okay, you don't like black people is that me never accuse black person. You got a person? No of course not.

That's horrible, immoral. yeah. Ah right. And so it's such it's true for any group. You assess the crime on its own terms.

Is this actually crime to the person actually commit the crime? And what's the appropriate punishment for committing that crime? Like there is the only questions that matter IT doesn't matter what .

group you from yeah that you'd expect legal system to work. But it's clear as day that's not how IT IT works if .

they told you that because you're weight and straight that you can get a fair trial, like don't we have a civil rights division to just department? I mean, that's the problem. IT would be like, well, you know you're black, you can't get a fair shot.

Well, okay, we have a federal government to fix that, right? Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah.

okay. Sorry, I am getting you. You're obviously much from baLance, ed, psychologically.

but i'm crazy.

So how are you feeling having gone through all of this? This has been a remarkable conversation. Thank you the way. But are you feeling about the prospect of spending seven and five years .

in federal person? Um the good question I think i'm more upset at the impact is having on everyone else. Um I you mean that is going to i've always been fairly self less, I think, in sort of how I Operate.

Um i'm not excited for IT, but uh, you know the impact on michell, the impact on the kids, the impact on my family, the impact on you know the F T X, fraught on all the customers. I mean, those things are much worse, I think. Um i've talked to a number of people would have been through the prison system and so i've gotten advice on how to do IT.

What have they said?

Well, they short of assure you it's not as scary as as you're feeling like it's going to be right. It's it's you're not in with um people who committed sexual salt or ganging bangers or things like that. Um you know figure out ways the board dom is what i'm told is sort of of hardest thing to grap with.

You have to find ways to have purpose. I think a lot of people that end up in in White color crime situations, right, their whole life, they felt they did things have purpose, right? People are successful one of purpose yeah um and so you're also some strip of your ability to have any real purpose and figuring out how to combat that um is is one of the key things that people recommend.

So how do you do that?

I mean i've got a massive books list i've sort of been putting together um in working with people are going to send me those um hopefully I can teach her provides an educational material i've already helped create so there's this guy in Michael santos he was in for almost thirty years for a small drug possession crime during um during the war on drugs um and he is started a program to help with education and so we together created a course that i'll be sent almost million prisoners by the end of the year, i'm hoping around digital assets, crypto currency in this evolving economy.

So that was very cool to be a part of and is hopefully going to have some positive impact. Um you there's this procs with the critical industry has a low barrier entry, right um and it's I think it's one of the cool thing is people all over the world in every economic class is that to be involved um and it's a very unjudgmental tal community in the sense that you can just self get involved and so um you know hoping people less fortunate to me, you come at a prison um this could be something that's hopeful for them, know because you get a prison job prospects are terrible. You know all these things are horrific the moment you get out. Um and so you know if this if a couple of people could find a meaningful job in this industry, that would be incredible you know, is terrible. The situations been for me, there's the people who have a way worse who go through the system.

So um are you cluster a phobic now?

I actually like small spaces. I do, I do. It's one of my I live in this very large house right now, and IT drives me that I walk into a room.

At least ten things need to be fixed in IT that I ve never gotten to. I I don't mind small spaces so I lived in about four hundred square feet and hong kong um and loved loved the apartment so um i'm not worried about the space. I I don't know what I wondered about to be honest with you. Like for myself personally um I navigate situations well um i'm pretty friendly with all types of people so uh you know it's much it's much worse on everyone who has to deal with my aftermaths out here yeah how was your .

family dealing with that not well.

I mean hard to you know splash across my local newspaper is like this horrific human being that still ever ones money and heard all these people you know all the stuff that I thought was doing good is now perceived is me trying to hide that I was an evil person by doing good um so that sucks um you know yeah it's terrible for them no terrible for a lot of people.

I'm sorry you has IT changed your view of cyp to now i'm a stronger .

supporter now cyp to and I think guy was before. So the basis of cyp to F T X is in some ways the antithesis of what cypher is right? Crypto is a decentralized platform that the network that doesn't need these centralize institutions that sort of doesn't have to deal with the horrific banking industry, which is a horrific industry.

Um and so F T X in bite these all service bridges right now between what i'll call the old world and the new blockchain based world. And you know F T X proved the exact thing that a lot of people in the cyp to industry are arguing, which is like these centralized powers, you don't know what's going on inside of them. They get too big, they get too careless st they obvious cape human lives and the sort of you know it's big central arena.

Um so the basis egypto is fighting against what F T X what's really ah they're necessary bridges right now, but uh I think eventually they won't be. So now I love the crib to industry. I'm not saying there's no issues with IT.

It's not my point at all, but I have a stronger faith and cypher now then I I did him, but it's really it's an incredible network. I mean, i'm not like praying to IT every night like some people are, but it's amazing. I mean, you've ever sent cross border remittance through a fed wired system through a bank. It's a horrific process. And the authority that the banks have over what is your asset is not good, but not .

shocking. You know, try to withdraw, you know, twenty five thousand dollars in cash from a bank.

yeah. I mean, money. thirty?

Oh yeah. No, no. I well, I couldn't agree more with that. I wonder, though, given your experience to trying to see what you've arn from that like, you know, you make the people with power mad, you annoy them.

You give you know twenty million dollars republican candidates in a tightly contested cycle and they like, they like you. And I think after the mother of your child, you know small child, trying to send both parents to prison really and campaign ance violations like it's pretty if you would do that, there's nothing wouldn't do, right? So crypto, the idea of crp to absolutely disempowered the banks, single most important institution, most powerful. And in america, yeah more more powerful informa even like how can they allow crypto honestly yeah I mean.

I don't think the government gets to decide what's not not allowed. So you more you know there have to be rules. I'm not anti all regulation.

right? Everything as a practical matter now that you they sent a guy with a battering RAM to your house and suburban D C um like they don't have limits. Like if you get in their way, they'll crush you.

They killed the murder. Jeffery estein, actually, that actually happened. Sorry, I did.

So how can they allow bitcoin? I mean, you have to proceed. You have to fight, right?

Cannot fight.

But at some point, the things you gonna come out right now.

they've come out, the things you've come out, I mean, the republicans are fighting against those things. Um you know, really thank you to ted cruise for initiating that um war. But you know interesting and I am going to sound crazy. And when crypto first started being noticed in dc, I was worried that um not worried but I like I thought a lisa with war was gna like IT shi ran this whole fake anti banking campaign, this whole thing and I thought, republic and this is a competition to the dollar and might be more apprehensive to something competing with the dollar yeah and so I was I got, oh, you know, we're going have to do some education work on the republic side and I mean, a little comes out pro big bank of footie.

I mean, it's same with burning Sanders. It's really why they are against the billionaire or against powers. Same with that. Who's that sort of mildly attractive but super annoying chick the former barn tender from new? yeah. I but I can never remember her real name but anyway um yeah we're against fighting the power, fight the banks but there are tools of the banks of course every .

one of them yeah I mean cryo is a great proof that I mean this thing is, I mean, this is the quinton central individual rights. You know, a network can be racist, can be sexist, can be anything like it's it's just math working. This should be the dream for people who advocate that that is like three .

galati ans should embrace love .

IT should love IT. I mean, you can't be denied access to using crypto o because you're in the slums or something like that, are you? A lot of people go to get bank accounts, don't have a lot of money, and they get hit with all these fees and all this cirrpc t doesn't do that.

I can do that. It's a math network that works because math works. Um yeah should be the dream for these people.

I think they show their cards completely. And now a lot of people pretend it's not true. The democrats will come around.

It's crazy. I watch this where after on this a breakfast with the gary against our thing, I watch some very smart, really good people. Yp, who I know big holders of, say, bitcoin, say why I think gary gangsters know he's not going to be IT. I like gangs. Festive is just total tool of the people in charge like that's IT like whatever they want he'll do he's never gonna be outside but they like we're convinced that he was yeah badly I mean.

in a dream world it's of not a partisan issue but the cypher industry didn't make IT partition. The government made a part is right.

Why agree? Yeah why. I think it's really simple. And i've have the advantage of knowing a lot less than you do about the details. So for me, the big picture is clear and IT is that this technology is a threat to entrench power. Therefore, they'll do whatever .

IT takes to the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or try to control this, right?

I think they've gotten sort of the U. S. Government now.

So finance survived where IT was one of the biggest ript. a. But now they're under U. S. Government surveilLance. So I think finance is essentially just an extension, a cyp to extension of of the U.

S. Government at this. So can I ask, is someone who believes in freedom, whose freedoms about to be taken from him? The one of the, to me, the most intriguing promise, most thrilling promise of crypto currency was the ability to transact you know any kind of economic trade, financial transaction in with privacy. Nobody's business actually.

Yeah, it's IT. Turns out it's not that private. So in a lot of not private a lot of ways, it's more so who the account holder is, is private until it's somehow made public, but the transactions our public .

forever by definition. I that's the point of the idea that, you know I know no one has to i'm allowed to buy things or sell things. We got out, everyone knowing about IT that seems like a human right to me.

yes. Um can will that ever be made good? Deming black chains that Operate that way.

There are sort of hidden like X M R and there are blockchain specifically to obvious gate um ownership and ability to review the transaction. And twenty.

and this is an emerging technology, so in twenty years will IT be easy for the average person I eat me to buy something or sell something. Using this technology is a currency medium change in primary. No, my senses.

no IT won't be the like. The core use of IT won't be. But it's not private.

It's not private. Now cash is your most private. sure. It's where they hate up the cat.

He is going away.

Yeah unfortunately i'm not. Yeah sorry. The black chain doesn't solve cancer and every problem. I just to be clear and just a very good network for a sub specific sets of purposes. Yeah, I know .

I okay. I I won't throw out my I don't think .

you'd up a crypto lover at any point in time, but well.

I want to be that's a thing i've spoken at two crypto to conferences. I like a lot of cypher to people, so the more gamers for sure, but a lot of the murders, really high minded, idealistic people hire q people who want to make the world Better. So I love them.

I love them. I love Michael sailor. I like, you know, a lot of those people. I'm so sympathetic to IT, but I just wanted to give me some privacy.

Yes, no privacy not going to get. I mean, you can be private in the sense that no one knows your address belongs to you, but I don't think it's gonna. It's not going to solve the privacy and a large scale.

Could you fund a because there is no meaningful opposition to the current regime in the united states to and there's no organ a lot of trump voters, but they're not a organized and they never will be organised because the people in charge prevent them from being organised. They tried on january six to one of in jail. So will crypt to solve for that. We ever able to fund a protest movement that can be defunded by the people. The protest movement chAllenges.

Uh well, I mean, so the you can stop the transaction from occurring um and so that know a bank can stop a transaction to close your account or things of that sense, you can close someone's big in account and there's tons of different cropt of currencies. So we're generalizing here a lot. You can close someone's bit going to go, but so you there that can yes, you could use IT to fund the protest that couldn't be stopped. Now once you have the big coin, if you want to turn IT into cash, that could be prevented um or if they flag your wallet as being as like extremely high risk wallet or associated with something inferior, a lot of other people won't interact with IT or want to see from IT. Um this doesn't completely solve government control um but IT takes things out of centralized institutions and puts them in your own pocket, which is enticing for a lot of people.

I think you're going to a border economy. I I just think it's really important that the people in charge not have a monopoly on the money because when they do, they will defund any effort to chAllenge their authority.

Yeah, it's entire america. I mean, the hope completely and time doing here that's right. But and a lot of people don't share that you well.

I just wanted wish you truly got speed and thank you for explaining all of this. And anyone who is made IT to the end of the interview, I think what are completely different as I do a view of what happened, certainly to you last question, have you talk to some back since all this time.

I have not know, I really spoken to anyone. So the laws do a great job. You get silent immediately. You can interact to each other um because then you get threatened with collusion or more crimes. It's sort of part of the legal it's very smart part of legal system. You know you become upon in this game of lawyers um and the pounds can interact the pounds lawyers can interact if the pounds lawyers are willing to interact. But for the most you're silent and separated so i've been spoken to anyone who's meaningful um in .

the entire situation no first .

men for the accused no I mean it's yeah they don't like you talking you know the same got locked up early for leaking a diary to the press .

uh the .

prosecutors control the whole. They have to control the whole narrative. It's a it's a game of publicity uh, for everyone but you know the individuals in a horrific spot in the governments in the greatest imaginable .

spot so disgusting it's hard to express IT right? Thank you very much.

Yeah thank you for help me. Yes.

thanks for this in the tucker ross and show. If you enjoy ID IT, you can go to talk or cross in the calm to see everything that we have made the complete library after cross dock. James zo keeps line in the sand, premiering only on tc and on october tenth, because I have to watch a tucker carson dock com James zoo keepers, new documentation, one of the sand I talk her girls in that cop.