Pastor Doug Wilson
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So if your job, I understanding for reelection, the age of one, the obvious questions, what exactly are you going to run on? You're not to run on the city of the economy. You're not to run on the state of the world, which is increasingly chaotic. You not run lengthening life expectancy because actually life expectancy is declining in the united states under his watch.

So what are you going to run on? What are you going to run against anything biters can run against? Is Christians running against Christians already put people in prison for praying was not a stretch, but the Christian are going to say, i'm running against Christianity, the world's largest religion.

You're going to say i'm running against something called Christian nationalism, which was a way of making traditional Christianity seem like a threat to the country, rather than the principle upon which IT was found IT. So that is their plan. Can running get something called Christian nationalism? And in this they have the full CoOperation of hollywood and the media outlets, which are whipped up the population to a frenzy over the threat called Christian nationalism.

Well, most of us, even those of us to pay some attention, aren't sure a Christian nationalism is. Is that a product of what IT sounds like, which is some branding meeting in the basement of the dnc design, to make Christian similarly scary if they believe in god? Maybe we decided we would to ask the person most closely identified with that phrase, Christian nationalism.

He is one of the rare american Christian pastors who is willing to engage on questions of culture and politics. And for that, he is taken a lot of grief. But we are honor to have him.

His name is doug Wilson. He's the pastor at Chris church in moscow, idaho, is the author of several books, including a book called mere Christianity. The case for bringing in Christian and ity back into modern culture and pistol some chances now best.

Thank you very much. Be here. Thank you. Thank you.

So I think that was not oppose. I'm sincerely ly confused by the phrase Christian nationalism, which seems like an attack on Christian and ity to me. What is IT to the site? You understand IT. And are you a Christian nationalist?

So i'm willing to be a Christian alist, because, okay, because I prefer that phrase to the phrase I usually get called.

So what do you see?

Racist, the theo. Fascist, crisp. So the the left really does hate Christian. yes. And uh, with the phrase Christian nationalism, even the part of IT that's coming from the left trying to wrap that around our next, that's something I think I can explain. I can say, yeah, yes, but and then explain inside of two minutes.

I said before and thank you for doing that and I will listen rapidly because I really want to know. But just to clarify the terms, is that a phrase that you or people with your belief came up with IT? Was that a phrase that was level against you?

Well both uh uh can in press uh uh located moscow to o has a streaming service called cannon plus in can press published the case for Christian nationalism by Stephen wolf. So that was our embraced of the term. Okay, Steven wolf, um wroted defense of scholarly defense of the whole thing, the history of the whole thing. So we embraced IT to that extent.

But then on M A cent B C, just a few weeks ago, um there was one of the talking, he heads there, said, anybody who believes that rights come from god and not from congress and not from the supreme court is a Christian nationalist, right? So anybody who you know, making thus jeffson access the nationalist doubt by their creator with certain in land rights. So anybody who believes that on the according to the left is a Christian nationalist.

And there is a developed set of arguments in defense of that phrase that can be, I think, pointed out in short order. You can't there's no that you trying to defend other things they call you is like putting lipstick on a pig. It's just you're not going to no right? But this is something that people can say, oh, I love my nation and I am a Christian. I can't this well.

that's how I feel about IT, right? I don't know what .

is so how would you define IT? So um I think very simple. If there is no god above the society, if there is no god above the state, they got away.

Yes, the state is god, yes okay if there is no god about the state, the state is god, the state becomes god and IT assumes the promotion actives of deity you know cameras at every um at every intersection aping amnesia yes on the presence um in big brothers is watching you control of your mind, control of your mind. They want to control absolutely everything, every keystroke. They want to control everything because they're aspiring to deity.

The reason they're aspiring to deity is because they don't recognize any god above them okay? Now this is where everybody I think i'd be with a, most people would be with me up to that point. All conservative, believe in Christians.

The state is not god. The state is not god. yes. And the early Christians were persecuted not because they worship jesus, but because they would not worship scissor.

The whole issue of Christians being throw of the lions had to do with who they wouldn't worship, not who they would, right? Okay, the romans are more than happy to add jees to the pathy. Yes, exact.

Okay, but the claims of chrystal exclusive. And Christians would not a recognize scissor as lord. Jesus is lord is the fundamental Christian confession. So most Christians are with the right up to that point.

But then the immediate come back question from our antigonus would be, okay if you want to have a god above the state, smart alec, which god okay that lands you right in the middle theological debate, which is the last place in the world, a lot of people want to be for sure. okay. The um is IT ala is that shiver that got of destruction is IT. Uh, the unitarian god is the Christian god. You know what god is IT.

he said the site of the church, right?

And incidently, if I could put here, our current rulers don't believe in god, but they do believe in the devil. And and their belief in the devil is why they want to ascend the sides of the north. They want to be, be as the most time.

That was the initial temptation in the garden. You should be as god, yes. O okay. So are our current rulers are are very ambitious, and they want to aspire to that height.

We don't want to resist them in the name of Christ because we don't want to launch another series of interminable religious wars, right okay um we because we don't want the muslims fighting with the juice fighting with the Christians fighting with you know all of that right? So that's that's the most reasonable question when they say which god the Christian here's the answered to you a question, the Christian nationalist is the one who is willing to answer that question and speaking into the microphone, the true god, the living god, the one who exists, yes, not the one, not the god on our money. You know, now there's a corrective there.

The god on our money used to be the Christian god, because that was put there when there was a robust Christian consensus in this country, right? So we had an informal establishment at the founding of the united states. Were the religious differences that we were willing to acknowledge and work with, where the differences between bartis and prosper urian and applicants IT was not the difference between muslims and hindus and IT wasn't the whole entire landscape because uh all law this is the next um principle. All law is imposed morality by definite, by definition, is not whether, but which IT is not whether you're imposing morality.

It's which morality you're imposing okay? And if someone says, well, this is gone, you're gone to wind up imposing morality, I say, well, yeah, that's what law is, right? You can't have a structured, ordered society without the imposition of morality, laws, judgement, right? But then that leads to the question which morality, every every moral system arises out of the worship of a god, right? So in saudi arabia you're going to get a moral system that is distinctly different, then a moral system that rose out of a country with a Christian history in yeah census right? So the the god you worship, this is a principle you see all through the to the entire bible um and that is you become like what you worship uh people begin to be conformed to the image of what they consider to be the highest good you become like what you worship in someone fifteen IT says they make idles that have eyes and see not ears but they hear not OS but this will not and then IT says those that make them are like unto them you become like what you worship right?

So if you if you worship a god who is ala does not reveal himself, he revealed his will. He's a god of power, coercion, force and that's why muslim societies are the way they are because you become like what you worship. The Christian heritage has a unlike anything else in human history, has a baLance of form and freedom, structure and liberty together okay? That I believe is the unique contribution of Christian theology.

Um we worship, we worship god who is one god. Christians are monotheists who is try on for the son, holy spirit. And so when you're tackling the ancient philosophical problem of the one in the many, what's what? IT is ultimate diversity.

Like hair clientele taught, you can step in the same river twice. Uh, history is just ten tons of confession dumped into a torn to the chaos. That's her cy us.

Then there's humanity. Everything is frozen. Everything's a big unit, right? Monism or chaos. World is king if your hair client and permanent everything's frozen and stuck ah and they rustled with this for centuries and then the Christians came along and the history ideas and you Christians, what is ultimate the one or the many? And the Christian said, yes.

Yes, and Christians have room, have mental space, have theological space for a ultimate unity and ultimate division, the fellowship between the three persons of the trinity. And we become like what we worship. And so consequently, Christians are the ones who can respect order and form and structure.

We we like order and we love liberty. Or where does that come from, right? There's there's a certain kind of person who loves liberty, and they just want to do whatever they want to do.

And no one can tell me what to do about anybody, liberty. And then there's the person who wants structure. They want to live in a tyrant's north korea type then where every move is dictated.

Yes, all right. They want structure, structure, structure. Uh, the Christian faith provides the baLance between form and freedom.

And this is something that has been discussed for decades in the modern settle france is shafer. The late friends of shafer was really good at spelling this out. We, we want form and freedom together.

So when we say Christian nationalists, there are only three ways of basic ways of organizing. Human society is tribal ism. There's nationalism and then there's global ism.

I don't want global ism. I don't want to eat bugs. okay?

I don't want tribal ism because nobody wants to live in a failed state. Soma with warlords. Nobody wants to live in thunder. done. okay? So I don't want tribal ism, and I don't want global ism, and we have a national structure now.

okay? So as a Christian, I would like that national structure to conform to the things that god wants and not the things that man wants. That's Christian nationalism.

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How do I fit into that, right? You would probably you would fit in Better then you're fitting in now okay um one of the things that a nonbeliever uh basically I I trust the Christians this i'm speaking historical. I trust the Christians to take Better care of a secularist liberty than I trust the secularists .

to take your mind nicely.

Ep put. okay. I think I think we're .

you have the last two thousand years to back you up on that, correct?

And that's not to say that they weren't words and sings and blaming es in Christian history. They're really they really were but you take the worst you know they take the worst of the worst in Christian history, something like the spanish inquisition, right? Okay some terrible terrible thing um which i'm not Carrying water for at all.

Terrible thing. But the spending inquisition killed a few thousand people over a few centuries. That was stolen on a slow afternoon.

Yes, okay. The comes have killed one hundred million people in the last century or so, right? Tens of millions of people. And and yet they go on serenely as though their copy book is not blocked and r is right.

How long they've been dining out on the salem's trials or on the the spanish position, or this the fourth crusade, or in a different things like that. Yeah, those those were horrific, evil, bad. thanks.

But the Christian theologian, the Christian pressure, has a book of god's revelation with which to condemn this things. We can say that's inconsistent. That's that's not what god wants, yes, and we should conform to what god wants as Christian nationalism.

So Christian nationalism doesn't mean disobeying god's will in the name of jesus. Christian nationalism means conforming what we're doing to godde's revealed will in the images. Ces IT means obeying him.

not disobeying. So Christian aalst m does not imply force conversion, IT or a reduction in the rates of .

non Christians. Is an i'm not Christians, I believe, I believe an average might my standard joke picked up somewhere as if I were president and what a glorious three days that would be. We get a lot of but if I were in control of this, I believe the average non believer would not know what to do with all the additional liberty he would have yes okay um I I believe can you give me example .

of the liberties non Christians would gain under such a structure?

How many of our chains have we gotten used to? Too many, too many. So the one of the common things that the people who are trying to scare people with Christian nationalism, like we're going to go back to the handmade tail type of thing um are trying to spook us with that sort of thing. And they say we need to keep the government out of our bedrooms, keep the government out of the bedroom.

Well, I had the privilege number years ago building my own house, and I know exactly how many screws the government required to be in the sheet rock in my bedroom, how big the windows had to be for egress in my bedroom, how stick the sheet rock had to be in my bedroom? Uh, what do you mean keep the government at my bedroom? I can't move the mattress tag from the from the mattress because the government is in my bedroom litter。 right? So so one of the things that would happen is that you would have a great a deal more practical liberty um as opposed to the kind of liberty that the leftists want you to have um the kind of liberties that you can exercise in a six by eight prison cell.

You can read porn in a prison cell, right? You can have dope smuggled into in a prison cell, you can get high in a prison cell. You you can be more.

But may I ask? So I mean, there's no question that the right, as a general, broadly speaking, offers a vision of greater personal library than the left to teletext an I think it's pretty clear. But why? What about Christianity would inspire you to offer more liberty? I supposed to like your dedication to hike but White Christian.

i'm a biblical absolutist um some people would call me a fundamental like that. I take everything in the bible literally which when jesus says on the door you don't look for dorn ob um you want to go lie down on a Green pasture to be a good Christian. So I don't take the bible literally.

I take the bible naturally, the way IT presents itself to be taken, poetry is poetry. Vision is lin, history of history. But i'm a biblical absolutist.

So what the bible says, I just take to the bank, and I have a very dim view of human wisdom. We are a piece of work. The human races is mess up, all right? And so consequently, I only want to allow coercion, which is what this the magistrate does.

I only want to allow coercion if there is black letter biblical justification for IT. Okay it's sort of like a um I don't have a problem um prosecuting rapist because I can show you the bible where that should be done. I don't have a problem prosecuting murderers because I can show you the bible.

This is something I gotten trusted to the the magistrate to do to to keep order by punishing rape in and murder that yes, so on. Um I don't I can't find anything in the bible that allows the government to dictate the temperature of the water that comes out a shower head in my bathroom. Consequently, the government has no business doing that is one of their business.

They have no authority. Zo, right. So we have gotten you they way button once joke that the liberal is someone who reaches into your shower and adjust the temperature for you. They know Better Thomas souls, great book. The vision of the anointed is I think, subtle something like self congratulation as the basis of public policy um and that's the way IT goes you they feel serenely above at all and they want to boss body around. I don't want to boss anybody around unless I have authorization in the book.

From from the lord and and and you look at the ten commandments fit, you could fit the ten commandments on a postcard, and then you could fit the old testers in one volume on the shelf, go to local library and asked to look at the the code for your state, shelf after shelf, right? The federal register of laws, shelf after shelf after shelf, that that kind of tyranny, right? Somebody has a website that called three felonies a day.

The average american is guilty of trust passing. They can always get use for something, of course, right because they're got so many rules that you're always transgressing. Um and then when they decide to pull the switch, they can just come scoop you up and take you off right and make IT happen uh in in a biblical law order you have ten commandments and then you have the commentary on those ten commandments, which would be the rest of the old testers and the new testament.

And if it's not there, right if if if someone says we need to prosecute this guy for hate crimes, right? As and I say I was opposed to the oral ordinary love crimes. What do you talking about? why? Why are you punishing him for an attitude? right? You have, you have no authorization for you.

Can you uh, hit IT? You can get him for taking the guys bicycle or smashing in his windows. You can. You've got authorization biblically to punish the wrong doer. At the roman thirteen, the god gives the sort to the magistrate to reward the regions and pass the, but then the bible defines what is that, wrongdoing and certain things are. A people think that if it's in the bible, we can enforce IT.

Well, that no in the bible is the difference between sins and crimes, right? A A crime is something that the bible identifies as evil, and there's a civil penalty attached. But in the ten commandments, the tenth commandment covers this.

There's, there's no penalty attached. I don't want cover of this police. I don't want last police.

I don't want there's, there's no penalty attached. I have no authorization to arrest someone for looking long longingly through a catalogue too long. That's beyond our capacity. So we we should have nothing to do with that. And and you find that if you were strict with this, you're going to you're going to find um and there's a wonderful title of a book, the emergence of emergence of liberty in the modern world uh and is the history of the protestant reformation and how a lot of our uh practical substantive liberties grew out of certain theological assumptions that that were established and reaffirm some inherit from midday ages and some established a new and some some established at that time.

So people think that Christians are gone to bring in this handmade tail hell hold sort of thing but there was in eighty ninety two there was a supreme court decision and I was exquisitely named holy trinity versus the united states of amErica um and IT was holly trinity was the name of a church. And congress had passed a law forbidding a merchants, contractors to import a bunch of foreign labor, pay for their passage and then release them into the country. So was there was a law against paying for the passage of a foreign labor and that was meant for these big construction projects.

Uh well a church I think in new york named holc trinity um called a british minister to be their new pastor and they paid for his passage over and so course some well as prosecutor charged, you know when after them over this a front to to the laws of the united states and the case went all the way up to the supreme court I was holy trained to university united states of amErica the chief justice was a man in brewer the time this was eight ninety two and eighty ninety two, they handled the case itself in a common sense way, deciding for the church. Look, you, the law wasn't talking about that. They did.

And then brewers said, and while we're on the subject, let's take this opportunity to remind everybody that the united states is a Christian country. okay? And then he went through the history of the united states, the fundamental orders of connected at the founding documents just walk through.

He was historical, literate, and he said definitively in the supreme court decision, the united states is a Christian country. Now the thing I want is to be living in eighty, ninety three. That's that's what I want.

In terms of the judicial set up, I don't want to capture this. The the bad guys are welling an apparatus that they're setting up and then turn IT to Christian ends. I don't I don't want to bud into their lives the way they want to bud into .

everybody's life. Well, that's for sure. What you're describing as a country that has has become less Christian has become more thora arian, and that's obvious in but for same what you just said, you will be and have already been by Russell almost recently in Christianity today, described as a theocrats. And what you just describe will be called theocracy, right? How is what you just describe different from theocracy?

Okay, what people when people say a Russell more said aspiring theocrite, he didn't think i'd made IT yet. He he said that I wanted to a deep in the dark recesses of my heart. I wanted to be a theocrats.

The here's the difference between this is what they're thinking of when they think of theocracy. They're thinking of a classic cracked right thell by priests, rule by clerks, rule by priests OK. And they're thinking of something like iran, right, with bunch of reformed weird beards issuing dict weird beard, you know, yes, you do anything. They're thinking of a cab, all of, uh, clerics and holmen and shamans and whatever issuing decrease on the basis of a religion that the populist doesn't accept and and we just jam IT down their throats well we don't jim things down people's roat, that's what they do. That's what they're doing now okay what they um when when rose first established there were most of the states had laws were strating important they jammed their ungodliness tate down their body, thought in the burger field decision um what they did is they jambed IT down in his throat they said, this is what we must progress. Wait for no man, we're we're going to do IT do IT now sure california .

passed a referendum restricting marriage to a man and a woman and I was overturned. So much for democracy, right?

So um we are not wanting to, um on the basis of some clerical decision, have the clerics rule and decide like in iran only a Christian. We don't want the Christian iao lis doing that sort of thing. That's what most people think.

What most people call a theocracy is actually in a cissie cracking. Okay Christian, the historic Christian doctrine is when people say, well past to Wilson, you need to firm the dot and the separation church and state. This is sort of thing that makes me want to dance in place, because Christians invented the docker in of separation church and state.

That's our doctrine that that is something that came from us where the ones who developed. And separation church and state is crucial because there are two governing institutions. The church govern men in a certain sphere, and the state governments men in a certain sphere. Because there are both forms of government. You can keep them separate.

You can keep the applies and oranges shepard in two balls on the counter, because they are both fruit, right? But when, when, when people say separation, church and state, and they mean separation of god and state, separation of morality and state, separation of ultimate truth claims and state, I would say, stop, wait at just a minute. Are you really telling me that you want to live in a state that is ugly, disconnected from morality? Is that what you want is where the you protest and your protest is immoral in? And they say, well, we we believe in the separation, morality and state.

but as united to the outset, that's that's an unsensible proposition that that has never existed and can exit.

I know, because all moralities arise out of a moral consensus, of course, okay, which is overwhelmingly religious. So consequently you can separate church and state, but you can't separate ultimate truth claims and state. They cannot be done.

Every people needs to know who they are. They need to know what they are. They need to know where they came from, need to know how we're supposed to behave on the way.

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I don't think any honest, rational person would disagree with what you just said, that all laws are judgments about how people should live the moral judgments, and that there is going to be a system for deciding what's right, wrong, because there always is, and it's going to be if it's march is macro tian, I once I guess the question now is how do you affect or bring back such a system in a country that has no working majority? anything?

yeah. So when you have a Kathy of laws, IT reflects the coffee coa of opinions among the people and and this is where unbridled immigration comes into the picture. You you can't just import floods and floods of people with different assumptions about everything into one spot and say play nice children um societies have to function on the basis of a shared moral consensus okay, if there isn't a shared moral consensus and you're what you're gonna is anarchy.

disruption and come the second I have read a many of special bishops and Russell more not to be the poor Russell more who's living in aging already but um say make the claim that IT is anti Christian if you don't let anyone who wants to move to your society move here.

right? That's like saying to a godless, sweet Christian couple who has three Foster children and they're taking good four kids of their own. They've tait in three Foster children and they're taking good care of them. And then you show up one day with a short bus with twenty eight new Foster children and you say we're depositing them here and we wait, wait the couple says we didn't sign up for that many.

What kind of a non Christian attitude is that refusing to take these twenty eight new Foster children? Well, the the the dad who was taking care of good care of three forest children, IT should be able to say, look, i'm taking care three and I think i'm doing a good job taking care three. But if you drop off twenty eight more, i'm not gonna be taking good care of anybody.

It's going to swap the system right? You you can't say we need to kick the doors open wide in the name of hospitality without the capacity to process them. You have to assist late them, right? And it's got to be orderly.

So if people say, do I object to immigration? Of course not. I object to anarchy. I object to chaos. Uh, so I object to the lawlessness that's Operating on the southern border, orderly immigration, all about, all about that. Uh, and that .

would be one I had to asked them. But but you are in the process before I erupted you of answering the question, how do you go back to a system based on Christian assumptions in a country? Is not the Christian .

what you do and this is this is you invite to preach under your show, you're onna get get some preaching hope so all right. So there's no way, there's no way to do IT outside of god raising up preachers who preach a hot gospel and church planting a there's no way to do this politically. You're got to make the .

country Christian again.

That's right basically that we're in such a mess that there is no political solution. We're beyond hope. There is no political solution.

The next election, however happy that might make us for ten minutes, is not going to fix everything. That's right. okay? Our disease is radical and its spiritual.

I've we've got a radical leprosy and uh the united states needs to repent uh of its sin to use an old fashion term. We need to repent of our sins, our arrogance and turn back to god. That's, that's what is necessary.

And we need preachers who are willing to tell them to do that, claim that this is what you must do. And they must not do IT in terms of law, or like that, shout, shout, shout. The law condemns, but the gospel liberates.

So the law brings in judgment. The law, the law makes us aware, the rich ung ruler is made aware of his lack, is made aware of his symptoms by the law. And then you turn to Christ.

And what Christ offers is full free forgiveness. But forgiveness with him now charge. So forgiveness is is not what bonn hover would call cheap Grace.

IT is a radical death by an interaction, right? So what the eater season is all about death, barrel and direction. And the bible tells us that when we looked at Christ, we are crucified with in face.

We're crucified with him, we're buried with him, and we rise again from the dead with him. And we ascended to the heavily places with them that are, we are made participants of the virtue of, by virtue of his death, barry, on reaction. So amErica needs jesus.

AmErica doesn't need a to turn over a new leaf. AmErica needs a new life. And and new life is only given on god terms as a sheer gracy of god. It's got, that's how it's got to be.

And so we what we need is preachers, Christian creatures, who will stop being ashamed of the name of jesus and preached the gospel and preached the gospel as though it's supposed to spread out um into the streets after the service. So too many churches are jesus boxes where where you you go and you have your meeting with the with jesus in your box. And then you go out and live pretty much like everybody else.

You try to keep your nose a little bit cleaner than the guy, but you you still fit right in out there. But the claims of Prices are total. And the things that the things that we try to emphasize in our our ministry is all of Christ for all of life.

I am fond of saying, theology needs to come out your fingertips. Whatever is you take in theologically needs to be enacted and done. And if theology comes at your fingertips and if preachers are preaching the gospel and there's a great religious reformation and revival, then and I am seeing some stirrings of this, I am too okay um so i'm not beyond hope, but this i'm beyond political club.

There is no political solution, no political hope. But that doesn't mean that there is no hope. So in the I can point the two great uh the reformation the great protection reformation would be one and then the even ello awakening in the eighteen th century in england was another one.

Yes, according to um I think prudent observers, england was headed for their own version of the french revolution um things we're awful in the the spiritual condition of the country was in tatters and in ruins. We sometimes think of the Victorians, sixth century english. The um is the button up tight, but the previous century they were anything but button up tight.

They were lude, the civil and moral oppressive, and the they were, they were headed for a revolution. The working man there was trodden, oppressed. And I was really, really bad.

And the westley and George witt field revival preachers, I think we're the god's instrument for saving england from their french revolution. That's the kind of thing we need. We need.

You think we're headed towards something i'm saying french revolution, but do you think we're headed towards some sort of cat? Yes.

I believe. Yes, I believe that apart from repentance, deeper repents. I believe that we're headed for real, real chaos. I think that the future is not going to be evenly catastrophic all over, right? But I believe it's gonna bum, bumpy and chaotic in places and violent and bloody in places. I, I and I believe that the only thing that's gonna ad that off is preachers who still being ashamed of their religion but they're only like .

three of them in the whole country like how can that happen here?

There are maybe maybe five. Um why are there are so few? Well, there there are so few there's two things elia and a moment of respondents cy said, i'm the only one left and and they're trying to kill me and god says, well, now i've reserve seven thousand who have not about the need to bail.

So I believe that there are thousands of faithful preachers. One of the things that happens is that the media, which is in the tank for the devil, doesn't cover that sort of thing. There could be a lots of faithful ministries.

I believe there are thousands of them. But they don't get coverage and they don't get highlighted. They don't get reported.

You remember the tandem square um protest course tank man, tank man right? But you remember all the reporting on how many thousands of baptisms happening in the square no thousands of baptism, Christian baptist, Christian baptisms in the square at the and square and and our media turned IT into a great high five moment for jeff re. SONY a democracy. And that element was there. Okay, but there was a hard Christian element right at the center of that.

I ve never heard that of my life.

Okay, thousands of optics in the square and gentleman square. Now the thing that um and is that sort of thing that you could have something similar happened here and is M S M B C gona report on the cbs gna report on IT? No, that they are they are combat. They are referees in the baseball game who are dribble and shooting with the other team.

I have so many questions, couple of quick ones in in, through out. The old testers, maybe even the new nations are punished for their since not just individuals but corporate right the nation um does that still happen? Do you believe in second, you've made reference a couple of times to america's, america, not just america's, but america, a nation. It's need to repent of IT since what .

seems okay. So yes, god still judges nations, nations. God still judges.

Got, got to the sovereign, all the earth. He still does right. Weakness still offends him.

of course. But but may be a lot of protestant or maybe just me think of that is taking place just on an individual level.

I think that I there's a there's a good book called the civil war is theological crisis by mark noll, who said the idea that got judges corporately yes is a an idea that for americans died with the american civil war because both sides were Christian, professed faith in the Christian god. Both sides were praying for Victory, and both sides concluded after the war. Well, that did a lot of good. What was the what was the meaning of that? Alright, yes.

So we became after in the aftermath of the war between the states, we became sort of eagles stic on whether god ever take sides or intervenes on behalf of um uh rightness or unrighteous ness in a particular ation but I believe he does so I believe that if our nation were destroyed for our arrogance and concede by fireballs from heaven, you if if god we're to do that, IT would be not unjust IT would be adjust judgment. We we have been arrogant in the extreme. And I would say the central arrogance, there's there's fruits of this argan downstream, the sixty million children who are aboord red, the various things that we do.

The go around the world preaching at people how to get their life together, writing them, killing them when we don't know how to live our lives, all of that, that's the fruit of the central. The central sin is secularism. The the secularism is that we can, we can live decent, ordinary lives without crist.

We don't need god in order. We don't need god in order to live plastic the way we did in the isenhour years with black and White sit coms where father those best. And you, we can do that.

And i'd say, yes, okay, how is that going on? We the grand secular experiment is now at a point where they don't know what a girl is. That's because security m is not a biologist, right? They can't tell you what a girl is.

They can't tell you what a human being is. And if they can't tell you what a human being is, how can they tell you what human rights are? Well, they they can't and they and more more than that, they don't want to because because they want to move us around as though we are just, uh, pieces on the board.

They you to gratify their wives and their theories. So sexism is the idea that we can establish agnostic m or atheism as the official faith of the country, and goon ourselves decently without reference to god. That is radically false.

We can do IT we ever been achieved anywhere, and for the year were no.

And and here's the another mistake that and you eluted to this, the crossover between individuals and countries. So you, we all know az, you know, there's an atheist friend and atheist s neighbor who was a sweet guy and you wouldn't mind him taking in your mall when you go on vacation and and you don't think his atheism is going to make him run over and burn down your house as soon you're around the corner, right?

Because he's he's a nice guy um there are nice guy atheists here and there through throughout a believing countries, but there has never been an atheist country that wasn't a hello. Okay, that's because man is collectively consistent. Individually we have the capacity to be inconsistent.

yes. Okay, individually someone might have been brought up, gone to sunday, been taught not to steal and not in, but then he loses his faith in college. But he keeps all the appearance of is up bring.

He still wants to be a good citizen. He drives on the right side of the road. He, he, you know, he does, he does all those things because individuals have the ability to be inconsistent. But when godless types are running the show and they are making all the decisions and they don't answer to god at all, the countries that they rule are always, hell holds always.

So secularism is the sin, and that gives rise. You ve used toward arrogance two or three times. Would you describe with that? Do you think that again is yeah.

the gas is things that like we can come in and take your children away. You didn't use the right pronto.

I am saving people more precise. Why does secular is secular ism do you believe lead to arrogance?

doesn't. Because if i'm in charge body, and I believe I answer to no one, there is no judgment there. You know, just imagine there is no heaven.

Yeah, no help below us, above us, only sky. Just imagine that and above book and world, only sky. Above a schwartz, only sky. The universe doesn't care.

The universe doesn't care if i'm in charge, if I have political power, if I know and I know the power grows out of the barrel of a gun and there there's no one above me that i'm ever gone to answer to. If that's my framework, I have absolutely no reason not to do whatever I please. There's no accountability.

And that's what secures m, leads to IT, leads of necessity. This is why in the old order, in the 呃， in the Christian order, used to be laws against taking testimony in court from people who wouldn't take an oath and name of god. You, you couldn't. You couldn't testify in court if you didn't believe in a final judgment.

Because there would be no constraints on your line.

Yes, no reason to that line. If you're a made in supervisor for a commercial property, you've had to deal with everything from leaky faucets to flickering light bobs. But nothing's worse than that ancient boiler that lived in the building since the day I was built fifty years ago.

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So what you know it's possible that you've got very far out threatening views, but um that you haven't expressed yet. But and i'll ask you if you do.

you know everyone in the middle, the road extremist to my right in less well.

you are kind of in middle the road, at least in what you've said so far from a Christian perspective you know you want converted, won by force. You want people they have more freedom to make their own decisions about what they believe and how they want to live um you're against arrogance and hurting people. I mean, these are not crazy views. So why are you so hated by so obviously by the left, but also by a lot of Christian leaders don't like you and are always attacking you. What is that?

Well, some of the left hates what i'm talking about. I think because i'm about to touch the thing with a needle. I'm about to, i'm going for the source spot.

The source spot is the set. This radical disease of secularism. They want to continue to govern their fairs without any kind of accountability. yes. Or they want they want to be left alone as they are running the show and they will give the treatment to anybody who crosses them, right? You've gotten the treatment before I get the treatment.

They know how to rough somebody up, okay? And their Christians, who distance themselves from me, because they see that, but right? But if there.

if they are self described Christians, again, anyone uses name once again. But the guy who edits Christian and I today fixed on you, uh, David french, is in your times, calmness. You cause himself a question. And they really go how other way to attack you, what? why?

Basically your cholos doesn't sense. So different .

from my kind of conventional Christian theology is I understand that, right?

Here's this is the, I think the distinction. I mean, IT .

okay, that there's that okay.

when we want to acknowledge god, I mean that we really should, right? So there's a difference feature in that and wanting a place at the table yeah so h David, David a David french and Russell Moore and people like that. What they want to do is they want they want to go to Operate in the secular republic, and they want a place at the table, okay? They want to place at the table.

They want to be treated with respect and return. They say, we will treat all you opposing use with the respect. And what we asked is you treat us with respect and we would like a place at the table, please.

Now I I don't I don't have any illusions about this when we're all rounded up and taken off in cattle cars to the camps. David's french and also more are gonna in the next car over, right? Actually, I think .

they'll be guarding you.

Well, I think the left hates its tools.

yes. Well, that is true. okay.

And I I I believe that let let's say David french and Russell are to take the most charitable take on IT. There would be tools of .

their definition tools .

yeah and and the tools, the left breaks them and throws them away when they're done with them. And right now, but what is the use of the tool? The tool is to say, hey, we will give you.

We will give you respect. You're the kind of Christian who could write, get an article accepted by the atlantic. You're the kind of Christian who could write for the new york times.

You're the kind of Christian who who does that, as opposed to these extreme guys out here. But the extreme guys are saying things like love god and love our neighbor and build a Christian community and worship got faithful. And that what's radical about this? Well, we actually believe all of IT.

We we believe that Christ really is lord of everything. And we should live in pray and love as though we believe, actually believe that and that that takes us spect to the earlier point to confesses jesus is lord is to confess that scissor isn't right. That's the issue. Going back to early, Christians would not worship scissor, and i'm not going to worship the state, right, if there is no god a over the state, the state becomes god and they proclaimed themselves god. I'm going to be like nevan as like Daniel three friends .

who refused about rack i've .

got a grandson named shake so yeah wow yeah so um we want to pass that like A C on um refusing me to about down and shared rec mic and evening go said to the king, our god is able to deliver us but whether he does or not, we fear him and not you and that's the thing. That's the chAllenge that the secular state cannot abide a another great. So Thomas so quote or periphery said, it's amazing how much panic can be thrown among the people by the behavior one honest man, right one honest man can throw people into a state of conservation and panic um because you're willing to say, look, this is the way that is we need to love god he's in as that .

boy that is the true thing um so let me give you the the the sincere test to the ultimate test. And i'm asking us on the basis the fallowing assumption that people, particularly preachers other have lives that reflect what they, what they preach. You can judge the tree with fruits. So how many children do you have?

Three children?

How many grandchildren do you have?

Eighteen grandchildren and two great grandchildren, just lately arrived. So.

twenty three descendants, poster wife, right? How many of those twenty three Christians.

all of them, all of them, all of them.

how often do you see them.

on average, weekly, if not more, that we they all live moscow. Some of my grandkids are studying auto.

They all live near you. They all live.

live in moscow. They're centers out of moscow. And the ones who are studying a way or likely to wind up back in moscow, we have a sabis dinner every saturday night to kick off the lords day to prepare for worship in the more family does our family does the extend family.

So all um all of us gathered for a saba dinner and then extended families, some certie relatives and any company that is in town. So on a weekly basis, there's like fifty or fifty years at dinner at dinner. And so we have this sabc dinner and we begin with prayer. I asked some cake ism questions of the grandkids, are we saying and then we have meal together so um how .

did you do? How did you pop that off?

Well, um we didn't. The lord has been very, very kind to us. But the in first to and three and entities, one paul says, and the man doesn't manage his family.

yes. Well, how can I manage the household of god? How can he work in household of god if his own families is not in order?

So that is the more I mean, you just cited the versus it's obviously part of Christian the biology right teaching. But IT IT also reports with common sense is obvious. Why do? But that is not the rule in Christian churches. Preachers, kid is an appetite for a reason.

right? P case for a reason and m case. Missionary kids, the same.

So why isn't that I don't have enforced is the word, but even acknowledge as a really important principle. If i'm going to follow you, I have to see is the leader of my congregation or my spiritual guide. Then I have to see that the people in your career, family have respect for you and love for you and your listings to you. Like that seems so obvious to me.

Do children love god like you do? Yeah right. And one of the .

reasons I I stand.

well, I think it's always been a chAllenging one. And but I suspect that one of the reasons why congregations give ministers a pass on on this is IT helps them to feel Better about how their kids are doing.

Your kids are .

spread up to you. Our journey is not not the top of the line but and this is Better than the preachers kid or he's in the same leagues, the preachers kid. So some um there's a difference between Christian forgiveness and cutting slack, right right? So we have confused the one with the other and began cutting slack where we ought to be forgiving. So we have uh where prosper eran, where um our churches prespiration we're 那 not less battery an or prepare atran the kind of prespiration an .

who believe the bible and tube branches .

direct yes so there are um yes and we're in another domination H C R C。 And we are that means the greek word for elder is predator OS. That's where prespiration comes from. And we have a body of elders that govern our local church, and we have the standard of family in order for the elders of the church.

And and one of the things we ask that an elder who's coming on to serve is if one of your kids, if there's a wbo develops, will you bring that up to us so that we don't have to chase you? We have given leaves of absence to an elder. Want you take a leave of absence from elderly duties for six months, so you can pay attention to your kids, so you can, so you can shepherd your family first.

Yes, so shaped your family first and by god's Grace, that's a standard that we have been pursuing for years now. Does that work? Yes, we have a body of elders whose kids walk i've gotten, whose kids love gotten and if um and if you know a child rebel um and walked away that elders would resign from the elder board because we hold that the teaching of yeah if your own kids .

don't believe you.

why should I now at the same time, I don't want to water this down. Want to say we believe that we're evaluate in character, not counting rocks, right? So let's say, let's say you had an elder who had four kids of his own and they're all walking with god and and then his brother, who was an atheist, got killed in the car rack .

and they adopted .

a twelve year old. good. I you okay but as a general pattern in a general rule uh the qua I wrote a book on this called the neglected qualification um really yeah I didn't even know .

that when I ask you.

So yes, I think that this matters and I believe that it's Christianity. And when I said theology flows out your fingertips, it's supposed to flow out first those people who know you best, people in your household, the people in your family.

I just can't tell you how much I agree with that more than anything. Um thank you for saying IT. Um so I just want to end with your vision of where we're going. And I think you have probably disarmed your critics by saying, as you did very clearly, i'm not calling for a political solution to this. The country itself has to change and be worthy of of living the way that you hope that um what are the bit and then you said, well, but I see signs of that happening. What are they right?

So i've been talking about these things in very devine degrees for thirty to forty years and I can see the difference between how this message resonates now versus how IT resonated with Christians thirty years ago. Okay, so there are a lot of hungry Christians who were awakened, not won, but awake. And yes, by the covered fiasco and their pastors, flaked, there is such a disGraceful way.

And the the state said your services are not essential. Pot shops are and abortion clinics are and pornography shops are. But church is not.

As an leaders who are afraid to die themselves.

IT was was that if you .

are a Christian leader, you're afraid to die. Maybe you're not. Tell him the truth about what you believe, right? Doesn't a whole religion about this.

right? IT was a god says, he says in hebrews, that god shakes dance, that god sends an earthquake, shakes things so that that which cannot be shaken may remain so there's a pressure test or up. There was a crisis, yes, that happened a couple years ago and two to three years ago now.

And in that crisis, IT revealed the instability and the frailty of a lot of even Christian leadership. And IT awakened in a bunch of Christians a hunger for the kind of leadership that was now apparent they didn't have, right? And so we've seen our influence grow and explode.

There's been a refugee column of sorts, a massive influx of people moving to moscow iao for the last couple of years. And we've it's hard to keep up with. There was a long stretch where every week at church i'd meet somebody knew and they say, what we're here now um the people are hungry, hungry, hungry for someone to speak the word of god.

This is, this is what god would have us to. So the people are hungry for IT in a way that i've never seen before. And I I hear from friends around the country similar similar sorts of stories.

And there were a number of um men who didn't fold, john a. Carter in california being the most notable of. And those pastors who didn't capital late, who didn't band, have seen explosive growth.

And and growth is not its own justification, right? Cancer grows, morning glory grow. But in this setting, people who love jesus being attracted to people who are willing to proclaim the image. Sus, whatever the state says about IT is, I think.

nothing but a good sign. So that sounds like you feel hopeful or I don't no.

i'm very hopeful.

So me, what do you think that this is my last like what is going on in the world? And I know that everybody famously feels like they're in the middle of some historical reset and the fall of room at the end of times or whatever, but IT doesn't feel like a Normal moment. No.

it's not a Normal moment. Um the one of the reasons this is a sort of a practical, pragmatic, almost carnal observation but i'm hopeful because in the long run, stupidity never works. Yeah are IT you can you can claim all you want, but you can't make the world be a different.

You have to live in the world god actually made you don't. You don't get to live in the world of your own imagining. You have to live in the world that god may not.

The world that you want to make and consequently you have to obey its rules. Yes, all this natural law yeah I saw great t shirt wants gravity. It's not just a good idea. It's the law.

I so so with all this um i'm hopeful because I believe the promises of songs, the promises of by a the promises of given to Abraham through you all the nations, the earth will be blessed I believe that god's plans for this world are for good, not evil I believe the god sentient to be the savior of the world not to not to attempt to save the world jesus didn't come to give saving the world the old college try the the most famous first in the bible. John three, sixteen is followed by god, did not three, seventeen for god did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. So jesus is not only the offered answer that will be rejected.

Jesus is the answer that will be accepted. So consequently we this is another bitrate rebid ral H R S. Catholic or view. The final thing is what's called postmen annual um which is we have a very optimistic view of the future.

We believe the gospel is going to continue to grow and expand, the church is going to be Victorious, the great commission is going to be fulfilled and we win. We win and then the lord comes back. So and that that doesn't mean, uh, we win the game has got four quarters and were ten minutes into the first quarter, right? And that the first quarter can go badly.

Well, well, we're learning, learning how to play the game, learning what to do and not to. But you know, if you you can't take the microcosm and expand out from that, you might have a soldier pinned down by enemy fire on NorMandy beach. And he he knows his missions to get to the top of the next ridge, and he can't even get out from behind the sandon.

He could be midday discouraged because of his position. Well, the same moment, generalizing the hours, looking at the map with, yes, right. So I was zoom out, zoom out. Take the long view.

What's what's human history? Like how long do we have left? I don't believe the world is going to end in the next generation. I believe that the Christian church is going to propt hot.

He says, the earth will be full of the glory, the knowledge of the glory of the lord as the waters cover the sea. So we have we have great hope that the gospel in its potency is going to be proclaimed and is going to take root and flourish. So, uh, we might lose our lives.

You can lose your life in a winning battle. You, uh, uh, a soldier on the winning side. Can I lose in his little segment? But that's alright because Christ is lord.

Are you afraid of anything?

I'm afraid of me.

That is the best place to start we say to my wipe the one person I really .

don't trust as me so that basically one of the one of my prayers is don't screw up, don't grow up right now because basically that's um um there's a great story where chesterton was asked, along with a bunch of other men to submit an sa on what's wrong with the world you know they were running a series in the newspaper what's wrong with the world and chester didn't rote a two word essay. IT was I am. That that is wisdom.

How do, how does one get an invite to your fifty men sebert dinner?

One chest with me after the show. You would. You'd be most welcome anytime.

I D, I will thank you so much for spending all this time.

Happy to do that.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.