Lawyer Bob Amsterdam represents the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. He says the brutality they face at the hands of the Ukrainian government is truly shocking.
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Welcoming the sucker curls in podcast. It's pretty obvious ous at this point that the corporate media are dying quickly. But why? Because they lie.

That's right. They lie and they died as result, but attack across the outcome. We do not lie. We promise to bring you honest interviews and commentary without fear.

Here's our latest episode on saturday, the house of representatives, the legislative body that writes the laws for a bankrupt country, approved ninety five billion dollars in american tax dollars in for nate to israel, ukraine and taiwan. Taiwan, by the way, happens to all the richest countries in the world. That package, that spending package, passed overwhelmingly, three hundred and sixteen to twenty four.

So what's narrow out a piece of IT that would be the sixty one billion dollars that went ukraine. Now so far, congress has given the ukrainian government nearly one hundred and seventy four billion dollars in munich on and so called eight. Then you add another sixty billion, a joe biden of this landscape.

The total is over two hundred thirty billion dollars. And that's just the money that was publicly appropriated that we can account for. There's a lot more than that.

So let's take a look at what's in the package that just passed on saturday, the bankrupt county sent across the world to the ukraine government. There's fourteen billion to purchase weapons. There's fifteen billion for military training and intelligence sharing since the U.

S. Intel agencies are running the ukrainian intel agencies even as they assiniboine. There's eight billion dollars for the ukrainian government, its pensions for its bureacracy billion dollars for its pensions.

And then there's a three hundred million to help ukraine secure its border, none to secure our border, three hundred million to help ukraine secure support. Just the priorities are clear. That's all real.

Before the vote, anti policy went on the household to demand that our colleagues keep the money flowing, to slander. I, if you vote any other way, you're somehow for rape. watch.

I hope that our colleagues will choose democracy and decency, rather than auto query and evil, because i've fear that you choose the putin route. You will have blood on your hands, blood of the children, blood of their mothers, raped in front of their parents, raped in front their children.

Yeah, vote for history. You have blood on your hands. And by the way, that's a person who's gotten to pendleton, sly, rich. You wonder how, while serving in the next states congress, but she's not sending any your own money to ukraine and share sending your money to ukraine.

So alongside this, the house advanced legislation would allow biden to place frozen russian assets, any special slush funds, specifically for ukraine, maybe eight billion dollars worth of material the U. S. Government just stole from russian citizens without a trial.

We don't like you were taking IT. That money currently sits in U. S. Bank account. And it's possible not to be cynical that all of this money is being sent to ukraine because it's much easier for are ruling class to steal once it's offshore.

So the bottom line here is that we are at war with russia and we're doing so on behalf of ukraine. And why are we doing this? There are several emergencies unfolding in the united states.

Economic and indeed military, were being invaded. But you should not worry about this, says congresswomen Jerry, commonly of Virginia, because we're not actually sending money to a foreign country. Ukraine is america. Watch today.

We cannot disappoint those who seek what we have, freedom, the freedom to self determine, the freedom to decide their support and their alliance and their form of government. Some say, while we have to deal with our border at first, the ukrainian recent border is our border.

right, a democracy that cancelled elections. But after the vote passed overwhelmingly, members of congress shows just how closely we are now aligned with ukraine by waving and cheering and displaying the flags of a foreign government inside the congress. Watch this.

Oh, they love ukraine, but do they really love ukraine? Ask any person that room, how many ukrainian people, how many soldiers, how many civilians have ukrainians have died in the war that you are paying for? And not one of them can answer the question.

They don't know how many ukrainians have died. They have no idea because they don't care that so much. They love the ukrainians.

So when he start really about ukraine, and if you're wondering, take a look at a tweet, a statement set out by a man called nate, mick murry. He's a democrat from new york, now running for congress, and he wrote this slover ukraine, die, mega die. You lose in the words, maybe the real enemy is not the russian government.

Maybe it's you. But IT wasn't the democrats. You made this possible. IT was the republican speaker, the house mike Johnson of lousianner, and he forced the spending bill through. He allowed IT to come to a vote because he says he is a Christian, and his Christian faith requires, that requires funding war. After the vote, my Johnson was a more specific about why he did IT watch three .

of our primary adversary, russia and iran and china, are working together, and they're being aggressors around the globe, and they're global threat to our prosperity and our security. Their advances threatens their free world, and IT demands american leadership. If we turn our backs right now, the consequences could be devastating.

So this afternoon the house acted, we sent over to the senate, and IT will be transmitted to orly, our supplemental national security legislation. I said IT very simply, i'll say IT, once again, it's an old military age, but we would rather send bullets to the conflict overseas than our own boys are truths. And I think this is an an important moment, an important opportunity to make that decision. We allowed the house to do that and expect the senate, we'll make the same decision.

Every word lie course you body cent troops, the american soldiers in ukraine right now, and more on the way today. We are a hot war with russia and they're gonna tell you that in stages, not all the ones. So where is the as all of this is going on? Well, I shouldn't surprise he's none in the front lines.

He's on american television laughing in your face. Here is an nbc rf, the vote. Listen carefully to this. Slansky says american taxpayer should be grateful to send hundreds of billions of dollars from their bankrupt country that is currently being invaded to his country, where the money is being stolen. That is the Price .

of protecting democracy. How long should americans be expected to fund the war in ukraine?

Americans are not funding the world in ukraine. The first feed and democracy all over europe and ukraine is writing, and ukraine sending its best sounds and daughters to the front line, and introduces the Price for all euro, for all nato, introduces the Price for everyone, including the U. S.

yeah. Uh, so we're funding freedom and democracy when we send hundreds of billions of dollars. Ukraine, of course, if we were defining democracy, we would ask american people what they think.

And if a majority of them oppose this, we wouldn't do IT. Because that's the fundamental democratic principle you serve, the people you rule because it's their country and their in charge. But of course, that's not all what's happening.

And IT does raise the question once again, if we're defending democracy in ukraine, is ukraine a democracy, a country that cancelled its presidential actions? Well, let's see, in ukraine right now, two night Christians are being persecuted by the state we are paying for. For the crime belongs to the wrong religion.

Pressure getting thrown in jail. Churches are being seized by the government. Your textiles, sixty billion more, thanks to my Johnson, are funding all of this.

So is very hard to get information about what is actually happening in ukraine because the big media outlets lie about a deciduously and have for more than two years. But one of the most reliable and honest voices on this question is a man of bob amsterdam and a little background of bob amram. He is a lawyer.

He represents the ukrainian orthodox church. He is not a ukrainean orthodox Christian. He is in fact jewish.

Think he's probably pretty liberal. He is not to russian. He is in fact banned from going to russia.

A couple of his friends were murdered in russia. He is not acting on behalf of the russian government, or even for faith reasons. Ukrainean orthodox church. He is one of the rare american attorneys who believes still, even in twenty twenty four, that human rights are worth protecting. Telling the truth is important.

And he has returned in the last month from ukraine in, and we thought to be worth asking him, what's IT actually like there we are honor to have, once again, bob answer. Bob, thanks so much for coming on. So give us, i'll stand back and you to give us the overviews of what is happening in ukraine right now.

Well, thank you, tuck. And to be transparent, I supported the bill because IT is the questioners of our church are on the front line and they need all the help they can get. Uh the ukrainian armed to church is a church that is is guided and bound by god's words.

IT is a church that is a thousand years old and its priests are dedicated to Christ teachings and in fact, uh separated themselves completely from the russian orthodox church. A in twenty twenty two after the full scale invasion. And I want to make IT very clear, there are studies in ukraine that demonstrate that our church is exactly as nationalistic and patriotic as the new state church that was founded five years ago.

However, uh, elements within the government have declared war on the U O. C, and they have prosecuted merciless, sly prize cleric partitioned um and and I knew that I was a tremendous risk to uh go to ukraine after having spoken out so strongly against the attack. But I had to go because I had to make sure that, given the amount of money the ukrainian ans are spending, defaming anyone who can predict their visions of reality, I had to make sure that I saw, you know, what was happening on the ground.

And after ten days in ukraine, I can tell you that there is not a hint of democracy. Uh, the country is run by an organization called the spu, the secret police, heavily infiltrated, even today by russia, the a parliamentary of members. I met with eight.

Uh, they are under incredible pressure from the secret potion. In fact, they were all interviews and interrogated after I left. A number of them had previously been subjected to interrogations. Uh the press I met H I met H A number of them who had been uh uh beaten and interrogated in the past and in fact one of them after my meeting with him had his home rated the next day and he was dealt with so harshly he suffered a heart attack uh the you know I was followed everywhere.

Uh, ukraine not only has shut the media, but they have become a fond of disinformation they just received well, in fact, they just spent three and a half million dollars in washington to tell americans that everything they're doing to the ukrainian orthodox church isn't happening. And that, in fact, it's the russian to a persecuting Christians and not them, to which I say any persecution of Christians is wrongful. But I IT IT is to ukraine, that is the professors, democracy and freedom.

And IT is ukraine that has absolutely no sembLance of rule of law that is terrorizing its own business community, separately targeting wealthy people for expropriation, especially if they have any religious connection to our church. And IT is ukraine that is, act actively, setting the spu secret police on individuals like myself who speak out on behalf of this religion. And and let me tell you, since the passage of the bill in the house, ukraine has gone into full war mode against my church.

They are launching a massive P R campaign internally and again in washington attacking the church, attacking me, attacking everyone connected with the church uh because they can't stand the truth to come out so what is shameful about our your american conduct is um what Robert destroy the former under secretary for human rights said, which is that some of this targeting of the church came from washington. That IT was partially planned because washington saw our chart to have a spiritual connection to russia and somehow being a threat and and I want to stress that that our churches, ukrainian, many of the men on the front line are members of our church who sit there and watch day by day as secret police wearing death masks come and steal their religious home. Imagine how they feel with knowing that their parents and their families are losing their places of worship.

And if a new bill is past below eighty three, seventy one, they won't even be able to gather to pray, because the churches will be taken from them. But IT may even be a crime for them to meet and pray. This unlimited attack on this historic church is uncontainable, and I am absolutely heart broken that american Christians have not taken up this fight.

It's disGraceful. And i've expressed that directly to the speaker, the house, who says he's a Christian. How can you pay for the prosecution of Christians with us tax dollars?

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Are you ware of any? And I just wanted state for the third time, neither of us speaking right. I was orthodox.

I don't know much about IT. So IT sound like i'm defending my own church. You're not. But why can't Christian leaders, Christian legislators in the united states speak up and say, that's just wrong or not going to send money to a foreign country to build a tyrAnnies they have and pursue? E Christians accuse that hard.

interesting. I actually defended this church forty years ago in one of my first cases where we fought the K G B. That was trying to take over a church in canada.

So i've studied orthodoxy over the years and and there is absolutely no reason why any Christian of any denomination would hesitate at all. And in fact, it's important for you to know that the majority of orthodox denominations recognize our church, and they do not recognize the state church. The state church is heavily patriotic, heavily nationalists. Our church is focused solely on god. IT is focused solely on the spiritual world.

So you said that this legislation passes saturday and today's monday, the real crackdown on the church begins. IT sounds like there's a connection between those those two facts.

Or listen, we've been working for weeks to file a document, which i'm going to went once on your show. We're finding a document with the united states commission on international religious freedom. This is going to be available publicly to everyone.

It's a lengthy document that urges the united states government to find ukraine, a country of particular concern because of their attacks on religious freedom. The holy senate of the church of england has condemned the ukraine. Not only that the united nations continuously condemns ukraine for their attacks on Christians, so why IT takes the church of england to stand up, but american churches and dangerous have not. That again is a question that defies logic.

So you said you were four, the the bill, the past on saturday and glad you said that. Of course, you might disagree on that, which I think gives you more credibility in this conversation. But let me ask you about the connection between the secret police force that you say effectively runs ukraine.

Now in the U. S. Intel services, we know that they have assassinated people, a number of people in, including america, they tried to assess in americans. I can say that conclusively um could they be doing those kinds of things that the knowledge of the U.

S. government? No one. And as I said, there is an argument then I don't want to spend time on today.

There is an argument that the U. S. Government is in a way behind an attack on Christians. Um IT goes down to some decisions that were made in twenty fourteen about the danger of the church. And let me be clear, a putin does instrumentalists the russian orthodox church.

In our case that instrumentalized does not occur, our leaders have been very specific and clear about IT. They are ukrainian patriot. I was shocked by how many of them didn't even speak russian.

But but most important to understand is we are a church. We are not political players. Bishop, owner free is a man of god.

Our leaders are men of god, and they only want to tend to their flag. And important to note, our church is a church that set up seventy parish es outside of ukraine to tend to refugees. And the man who set up those parish is under investigation and interrogation and harassment today.

That father is under harassment because he dared speak out at a meeting of the council of european and churches and tell, tell that council what the truth was. And he was immediately detained. He was immediately harassed by the secret police. And no western newspaper has covered the power of the secret police. And IT is, to your credit, that you've ve allowed us on to speak to facts that no one seems to understand in the west.

in very few people who are not hard partisans have gone to ukraine actually um I and I dangerous to go to ukraine more for me would be much more dangerous to go to moscow, I would say um and so I I wonder what IT feels like when you're there. I mean, we keep hearing at this beacon of freedom in the region, in the world. That's why we're sending a hundreds of billion of dollars. Does IT feel like a free country when you're there?

no. I mean, and you're talking to somebody who's travelled in russia defending opponents putin, and which I I still do. I still opponents, even though i'm banned, but exactly the opposite. I was followed, uh, everywhere, a talk about this information A T, V crews set upon me after I had a meeting with the government and then put on T, V. That I represented uh, the russian patric opposed to the ukrainian patric and also, by the way, gave out my hotel location.

So no IT felt like, you know this was a full on intimidation and you know I regularly represent opposition groups and banned in seven countries for representing opposition groups and fighting for human rights. And and I will tell you that IT is rare to feel the level of oppression and fear. And i've never seen parliamentary arians as cowed and as frightened as I saw in the radar of ukraine. So all of this talk of democracy is farce and and how we continue to listen to this, and how we don't try to build up ukrainean institutions, and why are business people are talking about investing in ukraine without getting guarantees about rule of law? All of this defies imagination.

Are you american as soon? Yes, I am. How does that I mean, how does that make you feel that the U.

S. State department, the administration, the congress to, but he was government basically takes over ukraine, were paying for the pensions. So I mean, that's a that's a high level of of control. And this is what we get. We get an authoritarian state that assassinates people and where legislators are afraid.

Listen um you know to be very Frank about IT um i'm also a student of history and you know I keep going back to what we did in the fifties, which was you know basically decided we were going to support autocrats and he may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a beach.

Yes, I think I think the issue for us is I would have thought by now we'd have learned that what we need to invest, our institutions and, you know, our government has forgotten the concept of rule of law. We've sanctioned everybody and their brother who looks or smells russian, even if their opponents of lad mir putin, we, we have lost the sense of rule of law. And by the way, the ukrainian sanction people so they can steal their asset and so they can make sure, uh, political opponents stay silent or they'll lose their their means of support.

IT is, in fact, somebody is on trial, a guy named shilo. He is on trial in ukraine for vast corruption, and no one's talking about his relationship to the presidential administration. So this ongoing prediction, corporate rating, rating of churches, which the ukrainians have pioneer, this, this illegal rating of churches, is something i've never seen.

And if you go to our website, save the U. O. C, you will see hundreds and hundreds of churches and prisoners crying and screaming and press being beaten, and these are our allies.

These are the people were funding, which we aren't even mad enough to have the leverage to say, you know, could you stop beating up Christians for a little while and could you perhaps protect minorities? I mean, I won't I can't even begin to tell you the number of journalists who have told me it's OK with them that these churches are being stolen because, you know, your guys are russian sympathisers. My god.

Firstly, they're not. Secondly, you know what, even if, god forbid, there were a few were you use the courts and investigations and the presumption of innocence. You don't close down a thousand year old church and sentence millions of ukrainians to losing their houses of worship during a time of war and .

look in a free country, you don't punish people. You're not allowed to punish people for their attitudes. You punch them for their actions.

So they're working against the ukrainean state. I think the ukrainian state has a right to protect itself from that. But if they have bad attitudes in a free country, there's nothing you can do about IT because you can't criminalize .

a person's conscience. Let's talk about attitude, you know, god, god, save them. Of the sixty clergy who had been killed in this war, half were U.

O, C. The only priest on trial in moscow today is A U. O, C.

Priest who was assisting the ukrainian ans. None of this gets mention. None of this gets discussed.

why? And let's be very clear, we're dealing with to many hall politics. We're not dealing with fear of russians.

Elenchi government has lost part of its its electoral base in the east, and now has to, has to basically appeal more to the west and the more nationalist elements. So this is sort of a grudge match. And they're gonna down this church.

They're gona view IT as a Victory to take down this church and defeat Christ children because they think they'll pick up vote that how cynical this is. IT has nothing to do with a russian thread, because if there was a real russian threat, they produce evidence. They are unable to produce evidence. So they produce sanctions which they administer with absolutely no cause and no evidence. I want to ask .

you about about where the money is going. So saturday night I happen to have dinner with some eureka. Ian ukrainean, born in ukrainean speakers, very nice people.

And they have raised money for the last two years to send to troops in ukraine, and and they go back to fourth from between the U. S. In ukraine.

And they told me that there are no bandages in front line field hospitals in ukraine. And the the basic necessities, mittens holsters for side arms of which they have supplied, are not there. And so IT raises the question, if you're getting hundreds of billions of dollars to support your troops, why don't the troops have bandages in their fields to hospitals?

You know, chucker, I will tell you, I haven't studied this deeply other than a number of my clients, i've had their asset stolen for absolutely no legitimate reason other than the government to have people there that likes and cover up their asset. But I will tell you that ukrainian corruption before the war was that some of the highest levels known to mankind. So nothing about the distribution of funds after the war would surprise me.

In fact, there's an eu audit that actually talks about the grow test level of corruption and war profiteering. So again, one of the things I would say about any a to ukraine, ini, st, I hope IT is monitored. I hope there are audits.

I hope somebody is watching where the money is going so that IT goes to the troops. I know that they spent three and half million dollars to try to justify their closure of these churches and deflect attention from that. They use three and a half million box recently, which should have got to the troops, should have got to defending their homeland. They use that to carpet bomb washington and people like me who are defending the church.

So that was your tax dollars, are being used to defame you through slides, Y, P, R. Agencies in lobby us in washington.

That's what you're saying. Oh, absolutely. And I mean, it's happening daily, but you they're defaming me. That's OK. But the fAiling the church, the fAiling men of god who are facing arrest, some journalists for the ukrainian church, are facing life sentences for reporting the truth about the activities of the government in seizing churches and jAiling priests.

These Young men, they are in a cell, a cell right now where there are twenty beds for twenty eight men. They do. They have to revolve their sleeping. These their crime is they've reported on church seizures.

It's you're saying a shocking a last question. Where the hell is the state department which is supposed to be monitoring human rights?

Let me tell you, as I said, we're we're filing this. We're filing this in the next few days. We hope the state department will wake up.

I've certainly met with them. I've certainly seen that they are, you know entirely drinking the the cool ID. We've developed a bit of a culture personality about the leadership in ukraine, i've noticed. And IT is time for our reporters to wake up and start reporting on the shallow case, the levels of corruption that are going on and obviously the attack .

on this church abb them. You're a brave man and appreciate your telling us all of this. Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for listening the tucker cross in podcast, if you like IT be sure to hit, subscribe and leave a review and remember we only release some of our interviews podcast. The only place you can get all of IT, including past episodes, is tucker curls and dot com, and we hope you will.