Glenn Greenwald: Dangerous New Escalation in Russia, & Our Blackmailed Politicians
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podger terms apply. I think we're watching the most evil thing i've ever seen in my lifetime, which is the lamb duck administration leaving the next administration with the world war, with the nuclear conflict by allowing ukraine in a proxy state of the united states to strike within russia.

I have one editorial comment and I was so let you go, but I think that people in washington misunderstand flat mir putin and they think he's a monarch with absolute power, which is not true. And russian politics is complex and its lively, and putin is very concerned with his party within russia. He cannot appear a week. That's a huge threat to him he feels that um I can confirm and if he can't hide attacks on him by the united states through ukraine, other a moscow big civilian, a casualties, I I think he will have no choice in his view but to launch like A A serious response against ukraine or some or nato countries or possible united states. So this seems like seems like most reckless .

thing that ever happened in my life.

I hardly have .

words for IT. No, no, not not.

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Here's the epsom. So let me just say specifically what has been authorized. This is something that some nato countries, including the united kingdom, have been pressuring the by administration to do for quite a long time, for at least a year.

But going all the way back to the beginning of twenty twenty two, this is an option that they had, which is, we have these, these guided vessels called attackers, which are very powerful for attacking inside russia. You can guide them specifically and very precisely to wear. You want them to go.

Obviously, you have to get intelligence about where you want to strike. And the reason we never permitted the ukrainians to use them is because the ukrainians can't use those missile on their own. In other words, if they want to launch these missile is not just the us.

Giving them the missile and then telling them no problem, go and use them. IT requires the direct involvement of the united states and or a major nator country like france or the U. K. Or germany, because the ukrainians don't have the guiding capability in order to know how to launch these missile.

So this is not just as giving them missiles and then go attacked deep side, right? Imagine if some major country, china, iran, russia, whoever gave missiles to canada, if we were a world, them or mexico or cuba, and said, we're giving you these specifically for you, them, to use them inside the united states. We would consider that a gree with this act of war, not just on the part of the country number, on the of the country, giving them what biden IT here, is so much worse. He didn't just give ukrainians missiles and safe feel RAID to use them inside russia. We are going to participate in the bombing of russia, nato under the united states, because there's no way the ukraine ans can launch these missals on their own, which means we are now our military or intelligence community, are participating in mussel attacks inside the country of russia.

This is something that even the by administration, for all the hawkish ness on russia, ukraine, feeding that war, feeling IT, preventing diplomatic resolutions because they wanted this war, even they were unwilling to do IT, because they understood the dangers of the equator, risks for jill biden, or whoever was acting his name to do this, just two weeks after the country rezone dingy rejected, governed by the democratic party in the administration, and on his way out as an eighty one year old man, knowing that is about six weeks of an office, you just say, ah, I know that these are massive rep, but i'm going to take them. I made me one. I don't really care.

And then to make IT so much more difficult for the following administration to do what they promise to do during the campaign, which the american people voted for and wanted, which is to resolve this war. Instead, we're risking escalation with the world's largest superpower, nuclear power. Over what? Over what we? I mean.

placing context to this is without precedent. And I think it's going I want to ask about that the second, but so one thousand nine hundred fifty six, soviet invade, hungry and murder on the people. Sixty one, they put nuclear weapons in cuba.

Sixty eight, the inv slavi murder bunch people. Once again, these are all you incredibly provocative acts, far more provocative than invading eastern ukraine. And this is the mild, the cold war.

And no american presidents, democrat, republicans in charge during those years. They didn't respond by attacking russia. I mean, there's nothing like this ever happened. No one's ever been this crazy.

Well, this is my big breach with the left, my big permanent split with whatever they thought I was in terms of they hate you. Oh yeah, I know. And that all happened in twenty sixteen, when out of nowhere russia had appeared.

And I members like IT was yesterday the very first add from hurry quant campaign with this like menacing bartong voice, you know, what does what were put in Donald trump have? And on what are they? What is russia? Have a Donald trump and journalistically.

I just couldn't believe that because I was so rettel ent of mccarthy m, which is a civil laboratory. An, as i've found I was taught, was like one of the world. And I agree. Yeah, I mean, you go around just accuse, sing people of being russian agents with no evidence. They're storing their reputation, their lives, kind of like what are trying to do to toll, see over now what they try to do for dotal trump for the last eight years.

So just on the ground I was kind of offended by, I was so skeptical of IT, because when you have intelligence agencies leaking anonymous ly on verify clams to the watching in place in the new york times, and they put on the front paging porters for them that usually assign that a huge this information campaign of disc is underway. That was the exact method used, for example, to sell the war, uh, on a rock to the american people. Was that kind of process that why intel need to be that out? But I hour me most was that the climate was deliberately created in washington, especially once how you ask.

And they blame russia for IT that any communications with russia, anyone who visit russia, anyone who talks to a russian official, is automatically deemed sinker or treason. us. And as you said, during the cold war, which dominated our american life for fifty years, I run a wagon called the show of the union, the evil empire.

They were infinitely more powerful, more threatening, more everything than they than russia is. Now we always communicated with soviet leaders that were phones all over washington that ran to the counterparts they commit. They communicated constantly. After russia gate, there's basically no communication any longer between the russian leaders and the the .

american is on either side. And I should just say, I mean.

not because russia, I wanted that that was something that in washington got created because they blamed russia and claim that rush russia was our existential enemy because of the claim that the interviewer in the twenty sixteen election before that, there was all the obama administration and and the putin government collaborated in all sorts of ways around the world.

of course, and but it's it's the leadership, the republican party too. I had a conversation with this because I like john, and he was about appropriate tens of billions more for ukraine. And I said, we want you check with putin.

You'd to speak the house number three, in line for the presidents I can I said, I see. I can facilitate. I call the police office. I set you up when you talk to put in no, absolutely not.

Will not image you had though that.

I what actually happened? I said, do not like what I do. You have a moral duty to get as much information about this war before you fund its continuation. And the killing of all these people actually do you know more? No.

I think important to say that this war has been a one hundred percent by partin. Although the by administration, as is the letter of the executive branch, is primarily responsible. The primary there's been about, I would say, five or six thousand and time intervention is for republicans, typically more trump supporters, both in the house and senate, who have spoken out from the beginning against funding this war.

But the vast majority of republicans, to the extent they have a criticism or heads ism with the by administration at all of respect to ukraine, IT was that they didn't do enough, they didn't spend enough money on ukraine, they didn't give ukraine enough weapons. They didn't get more involved more heavily, more and earlier than they should. But you know, the the thing that you said about encouraging my Johnson just speak to putin, which, of course, as the third line to the presidents.

Cy, as you said, when they're proposing IT to escalate a major war, of course you should wanted understand the russian perspective. This is what toll sic aba did in twenty seventeen 呢， when SHE was a member of congress and the obama administration had unleased this billion dollar year C A dirty war to change the government of syria, to dislodge bostra assad from the government. And we thought along asis and alka, who also wanted to saw gone, we were told those were existential animists for fifteen years.

We thought alongside them to do IT so many, the weapons we send ended up in the hands of alka and ice and iSoniazid gribbin syria and tosic abbott is, remember the military, but also as a member of congress with constitutional responsibility to authorize or death, authorize a war. Wanted to go to syrian, see what was happening for herself and then he spoke with syrian officials and got an opportunity speak with the syrian president. And based solely on that, she's now accused of being a russian agent, being A A sort of trees is, uh, sympathizer, a bohler assad.

This is the jingoist to climate that has been created way worse, what prevailed in the cold war, when all we we next and went to china, the reg, in negotiated outcomes of arms deal with the soviet. This is now totally prohibited. It's like we live in a marvel cartoon for children where there's good guys and bad guys, where the good guys you do not speak to, the bad guys.

the guys and there are .

good good with point.

I don't want to speak for tosi gaba or new directive national intelligence nominee but um my view was I don't have any feelings about aside or syria but it's a fact that that government protected religious minorities, including an ancient Christian community there and the elevate of which is one in that country for a long time he and is dead. So why are they my enemy exactly? I don't know.

Like what is, why should I be opposed to assad in syria? Why should I be opposed to flight in your putin was not just to be opposed to the soviet who were anti Christian, but now you have a prochnik. An present was to be against him. Tell me, why wasn't something explain to me why, as a fifty five old american taxer.

I should be again. So first all I think the principal is that and this is what don't trump er policy in twenty sixteen was that we shouldn't be involved in wars designed to change the governments of other countries, build, rebuild their government, transform their societies.

In part because it's not our place to do IT and in part because we're terrible of doing IT because they are very complex, real long history that american intelligence officials and political leaders have no understanding of what a good language know, anything, they know nothing. And we prove in that over and over and all these felt attempts. But also when IT comes to, I mean, the policy average entire world view.

And I have spoken to her about this, I interviewed her about this. So I feel comfortable saying this is that she's not in any way anti war. pacifist. SHE believes that we should be very military aggressive against, say, terrorist groups that actually want to attack the united states or have done so, or american assets or american interest from the world. Her argument is, is that we should not be involved in regime change. Words of the kind we did in iraq SHE fought in, of the kind we did in sera, of the kind we did liba, of the kind that we did in ukraine in twenty fourteen when we actually engineer to school on the most sense of part of the kind .

they were trying to pull off in russia right now. The point of this is to knock out putin.

yeah, I two, two, we can. That regime. And to the thing is though, that what you said about putin is so import, which is putins critics. He doesn't have very many liberal critics, meaning people who exactly real critics are hard cord national, exactly. And the criticism to see him .

as a liberal who see him is weaker.

insufficiently militaristic when IT comes to confront the particular on ukraine. And they wanted a destruction of ukraine. There, there. A lot of them are in rage. And as you say, the russian government has taken the position, warned the united states government privately, publicly, that any use of these missiles, involving as they do direct U.

S, R, nato involved in their lunching against russia, will be seen as the entrance of the united states and nato, as bOlivians in this war, as a war against russia, as war, war thray. And he will have to treat as such, even though he's been very constrained, even though he clearly doesn't want to brought a war. There are a lot of people inside moscow who do, will a lot of power who do and he who will demand he treated as such.

Why would why wouldn't they? We are attacking russia. We're shooting missiles inside russia.

So I think um as you've said, I don't think we can say IT enough so much for this has been conducted in bad faith but also so something to that bad faith has been informed by ignorance or uninformed by ignorance, non informed at all and I think that people really think that pun is an absolute dictor can do IT every once and that is not the case to not the case. Supercomputers place a lot of smart people in russia.

Complicated political situation. So I agree completely, we're pushing him toward that. The view I think I know a from putin is that blinking is driving this and that blinkin has a lot of hostility, is reckless, but has a lot hostility to a russia that has nothing to do with united states at all. Um do you think it's true? You think blinking is driving this?

Yeah I mean, I think I think blinking jack Sullivan, that's kind of the brain trust as IT is obviously joe biden has no involved in in this eh. I think you know has been a an issue which we've shockingly ignored. Everyone saw what our biden was long before that debate.

Yes, everyone knew IT the only people who didn't say so were the media and democratic allies after the debate became untenable, for them to deny that any longer, that this is old man who has lost his cognitive capabilities yet he's still the sitting president. They aren't states. And you have the vice president understandably doing nothing for the last four months other than working on her own empowerment ment through the campaign.

SHE obviously was not involved ever in any decision making, let alone when SHE became the nominee. So the question has been all these consequent decisions we made to playing massive military assets, similar speaking decorations, about when we would go to war in middle east and for whom as good in the war in ukraine, now authorizing the use of these long ranged mentals. He's obviously on coming from job and he barely understands where he is.

It's it's not a character for on his part part, but is just a disability IT clear just because he's obviously not making any these decisions. I do think that if you look at the national security crowd that emerged from the obama presidency, especially the people who are associated with the state department run by Helen and then john kerry, even before rush gate in twenty 10， they had an obsession with russia. In fact, when hello clinton left the administration, the a sector of said and rode her book card choices, the only areas in what you were critical was critical of obama was her view that he wasn't willing to confront russia sufficiently.

Obama had this view, like sort of this real this view from scope. Rop, those are kind of people who like jam Baker, that why would we send the lethargy to ukraine and provoke russia? Ukraine is not a little interest to ask.

IT is to them. He wanted to work with russia and did the facility they are on deal to bomb terrorist target in syria. And there was a faction in the obama administration LED by Hillary clinton blinkin.

Was there all these sort of national security people woven into the that that vicary vico was hired by? He actually made made the ministration. They viewed russia as this grave menace.

The reason putin hated hilary clinton was because when Harry content was secretary state, the united states openly spent millions of dollars funding opposition groups and organizing protests in moscow I mean, we talk about put and interfering in our sacred uh politics and our internal affairs. Harry clinton was openly funding protest and and and and antiproton agitate agata inside russia in the twenty ten election in twenty twelve, twenty eleven rather. And they were obsessed with rusher well before that.

And I do think that russia is disliked by a lot of people on washington because of the perception that they are detrimental to our interest in the middle ast and to especially to israel. Interest in the middle is including their support for a bus. As in syria, the fact that they have a good relationship on IT doesn't really always have a lot to do with the united states, but with the interest of other countries as well. Do you think .

that's the prime mover here? Because IT is true, that is sad, is only there because of russia. I think I think that's .

a fair statement yeah that's fair and has been there out in the middle for decades um and just cycle support allies around the world like sad abia and egypt you know very savage, brutal the katori PS but at least to do our betting, the russians have there as as well they have long term lation, but then as well with cuba going back to the cold war and still do as well as with syria. And yeah the russian is Operate in syria.

They protect the sun in syria, and as a result end up being antagonistic to israel, which ends up being defined as U. S. Interest as well. Is no but .

strict aking. This kind of nothing to do. I mean, I do. I honestly.

unless you see israel as a part of the united states.

A city country .

but don't pay taxes there .

was important. So for my project from an american perspective, without wishing yill in any other country at all, I really don't um I have been struggling for releasing the sixteen election but particularly since the war began in february of twenty twenty two, to identify what exactly with the U. S. Interest and I and I just can't and I really think tried hard but I just I just don't see what's .

in for us talk. There is nobody and certain of this in the united states, just an average ordinary american voter who believes that their life is affected in any way. By the question of who rules the provinces in the dnb's in eastern ukraine, nobody thinks about ukraine, not alone.

The down bus, little alone. Eastern european is an incredibly complex situation there in terms of the people's allegations, which are far closure to out. Then they are to key of the question of what that territory should be, should to be sumi autonomy to be using a buffer against the west.

The the whole framework, as you well know, and that the people have pointed out when russia agreed to the reunification of germany, which was obviously an extraordinary thing for the russians to agree. Dio, given the russian history in the twenty century with respective germany, when they are looked in the world, in walls, fell and they allowed the eaten and in the western parts of germany to reunite and to become part of the the west and become part of the u. The only concession they extracted exchange for that was okay.

With reunification, nato now moving easters closer to our border in a country that has devastated our country twice and two world wars, invaded russia twice, killed tens of millions of russian citizens. The only thing we need as a security guarantee and exchange following that is that nature will never expand one inch eastward beyond what was his germany. And the artist is agreed to that.

And immediately in the nineties, and the t administration, the t administration, and started talking about and implementing nato expansion eawt to russia, exactly what was promised to work, the united states would not do an exchange for them, agreed to reinvent. And why, why? Why did we need to expand our enemy ward toward russia? And now it's not just eastern in general, it's going directly up to the russian border on the part of their border that has been invaded place in ukraine to destroy russian, both of those who are wars.

We also participated in the change of government. We remove the democratically activators of ukraine before his constitutional term is expired in twenty fourteen because we perceived him as being too friendly to moscow, which is with the ukraine. Ans voted for and replaced him the very new and constructed a government.

And they was replaced by a government that was more pro U. S. Imagine if the russians engineered A Q and mexico to take up the government because they were too funding to U.

S. And put in a hard line pro russian, anti american, anti ado president. Imagine how threatening we would regard that as, and that's exactly what we did in ukraine.

The question is, though, this has nothing to do with the national security of the american people. No american is threatened by who govern ukraine. What they're threatened by is what the united states is doing in ukraine, including this most recent act.

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So what I find IT so a terrifying and not no, I don't of overstating that. I mean, we are on the brink of a global war.

But can are you say one thing about that? Don't you think aren't you kind of amazed by how impervious and dismissive media .

political heads are of the prospect of nuclear war? And yeah I will say the one um thing that trump has said repeatedly over the over the past, certainly sense of the presents four years um that he's received no credible or and trigger the normous credible or is that nuclear war is the worst thing he was Christian brief on as the person who controlled the launch codes he knows what IT means and anyone who spends five minutes looking toward a nuclear exchange would actually but you know do is uh is terrified, evident but only trump seems worried about IT.

I don't understand so many times, and I think good back to when trump is president, the early stages of presidency. Every time trump talks about the prospect of nuclear war, he knows that he is limited in what everything he can divulge, but he's so clearly trying to signal, and he often says that these weapons are a different universe than even the ones we drop the next. And he's obviously, you said, understands and been briefed on.

but you see these morons at the landing council or A I or HUD center of the cluster of the dams, people in the world all implicated in the iraq disaster, say, well, you know, maybe tactical nukes are fine. Next .

level.

crazy like that's crazy than any schizophonia next to you want to public subway.

Ah I think it's craze we constantly call like ark junior. They call him crazy. They call crazy whoever.

These people who have been empower, who have been generating american orthodoxy, especially foreign policy, are the most inane people on the planet. It's because actually the united states has been the most powerful country in the world. No one could constrain IT. No one could stand up to IT. And as is true with everything, that level of unconstrained t power corrupts people.

And these people .

have in control of this power for decades that has passed on one to the other through this document that gets increasingly out of touch and detach from reality and the and and magical echo apps.

Exactly.

I mean, at least during the colder. And that saying was a good thing. But the soviet united state of equal power, they were competing with one another.

They were both very constrained in what they they both were patristic of a nuclear we almost came to nuclear pocalypse at least twice, especially in the commercial crisis, through misperception and this communication when the russian commander, a semarang, thought incorrectly that they were using nuclear weapons against the submarine and against, uh, cuba and almost launched the nuclear weapons at the suck, came about five minutes away from doing so I told someone intervened on that substance. So I don't think that this is actually an attack. It's very possible we've come to the brink of IT before.

IT probably is the single greatest threat to the survival of the species. Not probably definitely is the use of nuclear weapons. Every time trumped talks about IT, you can see the fear that he has.

He's trying to convince to others every time. And i'm i'm a talker. I'm amazed this is like a peach men level stuff for joe biden on his way out of the door to involve the U.

S. Directly in the war. For the first time, we've been very involved in other. They teach you city to involve the U. S. In award without congressional authorization, ation, which is exactly what has happened through the use of these missiles. What, as I said, we need to help direct.

And the question is, yeah, why? The answer though is, is that the vast majority of the republican caucus in the house and in the center supports what your biden is doing, things he should have done this a year ago. And there's probably not a lot of anger in the house and ended over this, except the question that it's called lame duck. For a reason, a lame duck is supposed to be a duck that really doesn't do much, can do much as I move much by design, pretty limited, like this transition period.

He's slowing in the water.

Has he been shot? Yes, exactly. His legs are are broken. And so he's name this is not a lamacq decision and it's not like there was any emergency to IT IT wasn't there was no emergency to IT. They just wanted to escalate IT because they had thought trumpeton, and so they did.

IT puts us in this remarkable moment where the only adult is light in a putin. This person we've been told this hitler and drage crazy, dying of nine different kinds of cancer, can be trusted like the only reason or not. I mean, we're all relying on his restraint of that's the fact right now. How where is that?

Well, I me first, all this is that I sometimes propaganda, propaganda you have to respected. It's a very important ent field of human knowledge that has been refined over many decades using every field of disciplines. So social sciences and psychology and psychic dreaming problem, again, is not just some you know.

intuitive thing that people do.

and it's very powerful. And we love to talk about how propagandize the russians are and the chinese are and how there's no descent allowed, you know, George or well, in the profit to animal ARM wrote to actually nineteen before wrote A N S. A, where he was essentially saying that overt totalitarian ism of the hind that was taking place in the soviet union is impressive.

But it's not nearly as effective as subtle repression. The kind where you give the illusion that people are free, but in reality, the full of information is heavily controlled. Because at least when you know the guy is dressed in black with weapons, come and take you and put you in a glue g for criticizing the government. Everybody understands level of impression that often and generates a backache. But when you combine repression with the illusion of freedom, that's what incredibly effective.

And you with people with an abundant consumer economy like, you know, here you're edibles here's your netflix come down yeah and .

you .

can basically get them to do anything yeah.

And at the same time, there has been a concerted effort to control what was supposed to be the one innovation that was going to break the centralized control of the information, which is the internet. That's why there's so much attention and energy is White. The number one priority was from power centers to control the internet because it's the one threat to their ability to maintain this public interest to control.

You know that I still can't believe this. That is not talked about as much. But right after russia invaded ukraine and western governments decided they wanted fall on support for ukraine. And this very simple magine erratic that they fed their public after they started the war.

When the body administration start, that's my view of IT. They knew that russia would invade if they publicly push the lands' to join nato. So they did that. Come here to ted and russia. My view was .

they started this war thread king openly about expand to member from the high s you do that. It's not just putin. It's every political faction of in russia that will see is a war, war in valena, an x crime and invite to ukraine, of course, the american government, that you can show documents where where IT says that, but the the E.

U. At the minute that were started in early with the ration army invading, one of the very first steps they took legislatively was to ban the platforming, to criminalize the platforming of a russian media like a russia R. T. And spt neck. They made IT a crime, and youtube immediately pulled IT off because they didn't want their citizens hearing any information from the russian perspective.

I mean, you can hate russia, you can think russia is evil, you can think whatever you want about russia, but why wouldn't you want to hear from the other side? You know, the new time is to publish all the time, like the speeches is a brush, of course. And, uh, you and drop up and and cruel and you can read what the russians would say, they would come to the states, they would speak openly. Now IT is practically criminalized.

Putin speech in february twenty twenty two to to his country, nationally televised there um right before the invasion was absolutely just a remarkable speech which I by the way, never got around even looking up before I got to mosque view put I think you watch that speech right about IT never watched IT and I think I be going agree or disagree you could hate put them in is told, found I don't care how people fill up putin, but the most americans had no idea his thinking in invading ukraine. Like no idea what why wouldn't people want to know .

what I was just the cartoon on where he's an evil Hillary and figure who wants to reconquer conquest a all of europe that they hit or did pun has been an office for twenty five years. He has gone through six different american presidents. Every single one of them, until you are not about the say anymore, always said you meet putin.

He's incredibly suit. He's incredibly smart. You can trust putin if you do a deal with putin. You can count on the fact that he will adhere to other heads of states.

still feel that way. And yeah.

american presidents set IT all the time, starting with bill clinton, and that he's rational that he acts on his self interest, that he's calculating in terms of and careful. And then suddenly, this one amazing me proved again, basically is that overnight everybody was forced to say that putin invaded ukraine. Es, simply because suddenly he became the psychotic, evil hello type figure who just wanted out of the blue.

They all believed that, though, a lot of them. But, I mean, people screamed at me at airports for being proper course. I never been propular. I have strong feelings other way. But they really had been convinced, not just by M S N B C N. CNN, but by the entire alligators rolled the internet, that, like anyone who talked about putin, raised questions about the war, was like, for putin is like that work the propagate work, a propitiate .

k or propaganda war, especially national alist, to propagate, because human beings evolved over thousand of years to be tribal, like we want to feel part of our group. We take pride in our our group. Like, it's why if you're born in america, you say, i'm in america, this is my country.

This is what i'm loyal to. IT comes from these tribal isc instincts, right? That makes sense because we evolve four thousand years where you, if you got expelled from your tribe, you, you would die. You needed a tribe in order, survives. So we are tribal isc animals.

So if you appeal to people's tribalism and say, we're the good guys, we're the innocent victims, our enemy are the bad guys, they are evil all there, you know, that appeals to people's most visceral instinct. And the problem, of course, is the counter veiling punishment, which is the minute you questioned, you know, I had from the beginning, I am my show, you know, people like john, mr. Shine and Stephen world and jeffrey sacks, and they were all saying from the beginning, there's no possibility that ukraine can win this war, as nato has defined IT, which means the exportation russian history. Every one of them, i'm sure I think that happened to you too. I know what happened to me or put on these officials st issued by the ukrainian of being pro russian.

Everywhere you went, you get accused of being a russian and propaganda or some sort of agent for cmon, simply by questioning our own government's propagandist views, or simply trying to understand things from the russian perspective like this, is, you know, after nine eleven, the big question on the minds of all americans, after they automatic zed, by the extraordinary assault on our soil design, obviously imposes much of and and uh killing as possible as obviously they are like, why? Why do they want to do that to us? Why would people hate so much that they would devise a scheme as complex and deadly as hydro on planes, passenger plains with box dollars, and find them into major american buildings full of people? Why would they hate us that much? And they had to, the government had to give an answer that question, because people obviously anted to know the answer.

And that was one David from and china and all the people said, they hear us for freedoms. They just can't see in the fact that women are allowed to wear peines on the beach and that we have a congress. It's like no one ever thought, well, there's like dozens of countries around the world.

Will we get to win burb bii and have congresses like in japan and korea and all throught america, like scandinavia, aren't they attacking those places? And then been not in, wrote letter in two thousand and two to the american people saying, here's why there's so much animosity to the united states. And there was, of course, some appealed a religion in IT.

I made the mistake of reading part of that letter on the arat c and end of the time, not to make a kind of point, but just because super interesting, you know, and nine eleven changed everyones live very much, including mind. Lost a friend that day, like just like every american who was an adult and nine eleven and was said you felt like IT was an event that you participated in or affected you. So I felt at every right to read that. What like this is he's now saying why he did IT of the year for doing that.

Oh, I know. I, I, I just got I not only doesn't not surprise me, a lot of people forget that this happens, but it's actually quite extraordinary. After I in london, one of the most important people in the world is perpetrated the worst attack on american soil since the harbor lot.

If you want to to interview him or play clipsed of interviews, the united states government told, called all the network news agencies, uh, into the White else and said to them, you should not and cannot show, interview, oh, blot, or show any interviews with him and they invented this excuse as to why, which is that he might put some sort of code in his interviews that signal to sleep your cells inside like he might like wiggles er like carbon that did or like raises eyebrows three times are blank code in a certain way. A the newark all. And the most amazing thing was this letter, which you could go where he says exactly why all the different ways the united states has brought violence to the region has interfering.

Policy is the bottom.

We've been bombing that region and interfering in them, opposing dictatorships on those people for decades, specifically to suppress the things they believe in. We don't want popular opinion being prevAiling in democratically in the middle ast, because we don't perceive in our interests. We've been imposing dictators on them, secular dictators.

We've been bombing name. We've been sanctioning them. We've ending them. Of course, we support this real, which in that region people view as this grave assault on the rights of a palestinian.

But we put basis in sadi arabia, which is the most sacred royal to that religion. We impose a black ade and sanction regime, uh, iraq, which model and Operated minuted, killed five hundred thousand children. But one of us said IT was worth IT.

So we've been so active in that region and that's the reason they wanted to attack back. That's the reason they are kind to have so much support. but. They ban do some of in lon from being heard, just like the E U. Band rush and state media from being heard because of course you don't want amErica is being exposed to this.

And then the amazing thing is that letter, which really not didn't get much attention at the time, the only place that exist on on the internet was on the guardian website. And somehow, you know, twenty two years old on tiktok found that letter, and they started talking about IT. And oh my god, I was never told this before.

He didn't attack us because he hate to us for our freedom. He says specifically here why they're attacking us. And in other words, they we're reading a historical document and discussing the things that you would want a free citizens to do.

But the fear that they were allowed to not only read but talk about the document with one another was so intense that in forty eight hours they force tiktok to ban every discussion of that letter, to remove the hashtag, to find IT, to take down any poster accounts that we're talking about IT, and then the guardian and a news outlet remove that letter, which had been there for twenty years, which was a obvious historical and journalist important. They removed IT from their website because they were too frightened that people, we're going to be able to read IT. why? Because IT prevents the propaganda narrative from being unchAllenged.

And that's the same with russia, ukraine. That shows you how much we think we're so free we have. Can we hear so much decent? Because they ever republican, democrat bigger on a cable show about trivial things.

Now I got what we have, three debates. Open debates. They don't, they don't get to have that russia in china. But the minute there is information that actually threatens the government that they fear people understanding they clamp ed down on IT and suppress IT.

that's what they did there. You wonder why we put up with that. You wonder why we put up with the government that continues to keep secret. Files about nine, eleven been twenty three years. What could possibly be the justification for not telling me information that I own and have a right to see, which is what the how was that? And they constantly electing even.

even the J F K files.

especially the J F K. 5。 But but much more immediate was twenty three years were both adults.

We remember red very well. A orrible event actually in our country change radically because of IT. To this day, the page that act exist.

It's not never been the same country. And in some ways you IT was much more successful in its aims. Then I even want to admit to myself because it's so sad to see what to do this country. But here's the point. They're constantly they meaning the media and the intelligencies we worked together as you know um I can't attacking other people for being conspiracy theory and crazy and discretion the memory than on eleven victims and settle by coming up with explanations that are not authorized OK the one you just tell us what actually have, one I just declassify IT what I know, what's the answer is going to jeopardize sources and methods. Is that not true?

And we all know that. And you know this, the importance of protecting those secrets, keeping those documents that might show the truth, not to spend on on the jeff k, that's the most important.

It's it's in fact the whole point of the second impeachment trial you which never made any sense, why would you bring the peach and trial against the president on this way out the office was because they were patric ed, that trump is going to do certain things in that transition like partin Edward is not in enjoy a song which came very close doing, but especially fulfill his promise to declassify things like the gfk files and other national security files that had been kept hidden with no justification from the american public. Even know what happened decades ago. nine.

J, F, K. And they told him, if you do that, all the center or have are going to go to impeach you. You're going to be convicted and enemy given to run ever again. That was the sort of demo s they held over as had precisely to prevent him from bring transparency to the government, allowing the american people to see what they are .

aver right to know. But if your greatest fear is transparency in your criminal, I mean, that's a basic proof. I I can't think of a Better indicator of behavior than the craze desire to keep that behavior secret, right?

Kay, I wanted see me that if you think about what a democracy is supposed to be, I got an ideal free society is whatever you call that. It's supposed to be that everything that public officials do in the naming of public power is supposed to be known to the, the, the public with very few exceptions, right? Like there's war and they're planning true bombs.

They can give up secret, no, a week before. Don't everyone going to? But outside of those very rare exceptions, we are supposed to know everything about what they do, of course, because they are doing in our name. They are employees yeah the accountable to us, but they can't be if we don't know what they're doing.

Conversely, they're not suppose know anything about what private citizens do not supposed to track us, even drop on us or keep doc is on us or know where we are, where we're going unless again, very circumstances where criminal there is probable cause to to to spy on us because we've ve convinced to the court, as the constitution requires, that there is problem cause to believe. But except those were something. That's why they're called public officials, al and work called private citizens first post of privacy.

They're not. There's post of transparency. Our society is completely reversed.

If you are private, stays in, the government knows everything about you. They keep all kinds of dad on you. That was the snowden reporting. Obviously, that and reveal was the extent to which we are being surveyed by on government. Conversely, we know almost nothing about what the, you know, when I got the add snowin archive, which was hundreds of thousands of, not more of top secret documents from the nsa, I really see what was surprising as what was in them and what they revealed. But what even more surprising to me was that the documents, so many of these documents, most of these documents, that remark top secret, had no interesting information in them at all, like they just reflective put, like how to get a parking credential, how to ask your supervisor for vacation. These are top secret because everything the government does reflexively .

is kept secret from the public.

So everything is inverse. We the government knows everything about what we do, and we know nothing about what they do.

I'm talk across and for help. Now as you know, the fda requires us to warn you well, to redo the warning, quote, warning. This product contains nickey.

Nickey is an addictive chemical and quite were required to tell you that by the federal government. But we don't shy away from that. It's addictive and there's an upside to IT.

Yes, nickel is an addictive chemical that is true there. A lot of things in life, you forget your car keys, your wallet. One thing you're never gna forget is out, because nickel is an addictive chemical.

You may forget to put your shoes on in the morning. You may forget to kiss your wife on the way out. You may come home and not remember your own dog's name, but one thing you're not going to forget is your alp.

why? Because you're addicted to IT. Because your body will tell you, hey, Better bring your help with you and you will. I do. I never anywhere without my help.

It's by the side of my bed when I go to sleepit there, when I wake up in the morning in the front part of my penis, I head out into the world always with me on the desk as I do. Interviews everywhere I am out is because it's an addictive chemical. That's exactly right.

And one of to that, we're not ashamed of IT. It's addictive in the same way that air, water and sex are addicted. They're so great you want to do them every day.

Thankfully, it's easy to have to out with you at all times. Just go our website, help touch dot com and never be without IT neck. Yes, is addictive. That's why we like IT.

So um a long time the official told me not that long ago, I guess I should known this, that the big pornography sites are control with the intelligence, save access to the date sites and the reason that they do. And I think the dating sites too and the reason that they do, of course, is back now.

And once you realized that once you realized like the most embarrassing features of your personal life are known um by people who want to control you, then you you're controlled and you look at the behavior of some of these people who I know personally and particularly the congress and like why you doing that, you don't agree with that and you're out there doing IT anyway, we always imagine that is just donors. So getting paid to do that is more than donors. I've seen politicians turn down donors before. I see watched that I don't .

believe i'm doing I very safe is not everybody .

is don't exactly can .

just giving an example. I'm not such as the carrot. There's a stick in there.

I'm not saying this happened here. I'm not saying that at all. I ve no that basis for saying. But I had my Johnson on my show about two months before unexpecting. He became the speaker when he just became like the on yeah my Johnson and the reason of my Johnson was because .

you not go on your .

show no is why this is so interested. This is why. So, yeah, just by chance that you never, my chance. The reason was, was because Christopher ray went before a committee on what he SAT in the house, and mike Johnson grilled him about FBI spying, about the involved of the intelligence community, these in our politics, about the attempt to censor the internet coming from the intelligencies.

And he did IT with this great kind of intellect, but also this very effective the, and I could just tell that he passionate, developed, passionate about the issue that I started following more and more what ever was doing. He was almost single mindedly focused spying abuses, curbing spying power, curbing sonship. And so we asked him, I said, you know, can you call show and he came on my show. No, go, go watch the interview.

And i'm hard to shocks. You are shocking .

I had on my show and after the interviews, I I love him. One of the reasons, one of the things we spent the most amount time on was VISA reform in the need for fisa reform. The fact, docker, i'm swear this is, i'm telling you, fizz, reform is coming up in about three months where they had to extend the fight of all that allows the FBI to c to spine american citizens, the na, without really any reforms.

And he was determined IT was like his big issue. That's why he was all my show. That's why you like for like my work was he was like, we cannot allow this vies a lot to be renewed.

IT is a great threat to american democracy. At the very least we need lawyer is very informed about these issues. I worked to a super impressed, that is what we spent most of time on.

but also just we you put these clips on the internet.

the whole shows.

just posts on social media will do.

But i'll do IT again because my job become a speaker about two months later. I don't mean four years later, two later, about two months after that, three months at the most right when the fires of laws coming up and I was like, oh, it's so great he was made speaker. There's no way this five was getting passed.

Not only did mick Johnson say i'm going to allow the fazer renewal to come to the fall with no reforms, not allow any reforms, he himself said, IT is urgent that we renew VISA without any reforms. This is a crucial critical tool, forer intelligence agencies. And I put that crip everywhere when that happened, showing we're just two monthly.

Did you butt them together? Yeah of course I was attacking but the shell mick Johnson and then somebody I finally asked him like, but you've been saying all long for years, for the last two years that you ve amenity opposes and suddenly now you're for IT watching and share mine and he was like, yeah, well, when you're speaker, you get access to a lot of things. And I was taken to the secret room in the CIA, and they showed me these very important things and the sensitive documents about how important these powers are and how devastating would be if we put any reforms on them.

And so I realized that I was wrong when I had believed. And now I believe this law has to be passed with the reforms. Don't have smart people like that.

He was arding congresses elects classified information, getting briefing, secret briefings. Don't have people that investing in position, who with one meeting, I can see someone really dumb being affected by that. I go, these guys with big medals on their chest.

Take you do like a secret, super secret room inside the c like all these locks and codes and things on the wall and your own process. Oh my god, I can't this here. Very smart eye.

I don't believe IT fend is mine. So the question is, why did he? I don't know. I really don't. But I know that the person that was on my show to australia no longer exists.

Wa, I I can answer to that one of the most shocking things I had no long time because I I didn't um I should also echo what everyone else, whoever made him will say, which is nice guy, you not a mean man or anything .

great adopt kids like totally everything he says about decency for for everybody totally. I was even saying today that he was you know with the whole thing about the question of whether this new train lawmaker was going to be use bathroom he was asked about. He was just like emphasizing for respect and decency and civility, even if you know and and I believe he believes that I can believe he isn't connection with the like best parts of Christianity and takes them seriously, ducks himself that way, and always has nothing against my Johnson personally, quite the country. But to watch that happen was as SAT as cynical I am.

I don't even know how to respond because I didn't. I have interviewed my Johnson over the years, but he was like some guy from losing and whatever wasn't paying close attention. And IT was only after he became speaker on the vice a question and on the question of funding ukraine.

there was the other thing, you go what I talking about that too. He was like, no, he did say he wasn't at all like, uh, you know say like a maga's type, you know I like we can't fun that war, that war he wasn't saying that he he like we can't like russia when, but he was still pretty scutt al. But he was really on these questions of fisa and the C I. And the FBI and spying powers and internet censorship powers where he was passionate.

That's why I am on make a name, my arms go up because I A great look. I'm not alleging anything. I don't know anything. I didn't even know that he was that invest on precisely the opposite side, but made all these things possible.

And I had a conversation with him off camera I publish shouldn't be too detailed about IT, but he said something that I thought was like none ally nonsensical, but like insane be crazy. And just to make any IT was internally incoherent. And he's not stupid, as he said, and I and I got upset and I was like, that doesn't make any sense at all and and he just kind of said, no IT does make sense. IT does IT was like, there was no answer.

IT was just like, well, obama too, you have to, especially for people who are the kind of knew the power, right? Like, not. I suppose you are, joe, by, in or which connel people have been in these positions for decades.

Mike Johnson went from a very bad to the third line. Who controls the the house representative? You can only imagine the instance, just unlimited amount of pressure that comes from multiple directions to force him to allow himself with whatever the agenda is of the people who are washington.

Same thing happened to obama. I believe obama when he talked for two years when running for president, but I was a construction professor, how we believe so much in the corb rights of the constitution, like K, B, S. Corpus, the right to last year, imprisonment to have evidence presented against you, but plays like on tony, mo and elsewhere, have we wanted to approve the worst abuses? The pushing, warn tarr.

Then he gets into office and not only doesn't approve them, but he starts extending them. Because, again, these generals come, including the ones he likes. You want to print them, like, gave trays.

You know, the ones who dazles obama and give him secret briefings about all the bad gna be on his hands. If he does any other changes, he present two years promising sudenly on a time. He switches. And there's a lot of other pressure you can imagine as well, like the stick as he said. And anyone you think that this is that our intelligence agencies are above these kinds of things that I gave a day required to believe.

that is they are not about, have done IT. This is their currency. It's just amazing having spent on all this time and washed with all these people I have just who I know.

And by the way, in some cases, like micron and I like you, you can't really reach another conclusion other than there's something very heavy duty going on behind the scenes. I really profound going on, and I just don't know why no one has ever emerging the system to say what IT is. Is there not one? There very few cratered people? And why isn't someone just just call one of these people out .

the things that made trumps so threatening and that continues to make them so? Is that in a lot of ways he was pulling the curtain.

He is that is the fourth walls .

coming down yeah I mean, you know, I remember he he just said openly, yeah like as a billionaire, as a business span, I just gave a candidate, you know fifty thousand dollars and then they were tomato ally, accept my I ld them to do who who says that in the top of politics like, hey, you're roman present and why you to know here's how this system work. You give a lot of money to some place that these lawmakers tell you to donate money too, and then they do whatever you want. They do you're bedding.

When in that two thousand sixteen debate when he started rilling against the evil in the stupidity of iraq war because his principal, uh, opponent of the time was ja bush who was bed by the establishment and the audience started bowing as though the miracle was rising up in the to the bush family, he was like, oh, these seat here, these are all the big group public donors. That's the only people who are doing me because they are supporting the bush. And that I have you ever into a debate, as I know you have that exactly how what is the big four parties? They put their big donors to right behind where they get, where their audience is, only their reaction.

So trump constantly was sort of doing that. Here's how things really work. And then once he started getting targeted by these agencies, by the C.

A, the FBI, starting with the russia, but the steel da, which jim comi did like to the media, and then all those investigations, that's why he started saying these intelligence agencies are corrupted to their core. They're filled with people who have their own policy agenda. Was supposed to have an elected leader, democratically elected leader, who super ses these branches and these agencies and executive branch.

And their duty is to Carry out his policies. But they don't. They severity his policies. They sabotage them because they didn't agree with them. They were like their own branch of government, completely powerful.

And he is the first one, I guess, inspired ice and hour, who tried to one of this on his way out after spending eight years. And obviously the interesting created the military. And just way smaller.

When do I, I and how tried to warn of how much a threat IT was. A democracy is very well. Dress IT was before we had on before a the real build up of the court war.

Obviously, nine, eleven, there are spring now there they're almost impossible. The even analysts are quantify. And trump is the only one who is trying to say these institutions are radical, corrupted. At the root, they're ted.

And that's why he's trying to choose people you know, he picks them like comfortable, institutionalize and state patra ors like marker rubio least to fund x john rack lib people like that is to give washington in a sense of, okay there, some people here, we're good with but then the people that he picked or share his view that these institutions require radical trying to destroy well, there's there's healthy, there's my gates, there's R K unior and a little bit to some extent peat hagg sah. I mean he's not really ideologically uh underlined but the problem is is that he doesn't come from the pentagon diocles. That's what they care about most.

Such a trillion dollar agency, you know how many wheels that greece in rayon and boeing and general dynamics, that's what they care about most, is making sure that money goes where it's supposed to go. That's why they're concerned about him. But the people who aren't the ones that comes could apply easily are the ones who they are most out to destroy.

Because that's what these power, prominent power factions are as they are their own government. And they real the most power. And they have sure, consider my Johnson no threat at all. So let's take them .

and do what we have to do what you wonder .

like just I don't know.

I mean, look, these guys are under pressure that, you know we probably can't imagine, you know, if somebody knew the thing you are most embarrass about that would destroy your life and make your kids not like you are, whatever. I'm not speaking Johnson specifically, but I I know a couple of people who I know we're compromised in the U. S.

government. And I sort of feel sad for them. IT has had joy to be in that position, but IT IT does. All IT would take is one brave man to give a press conference. You know there was actually a guy, um cookie Robert, his father hal box, who stood up in congress.

He was this majority leader in about one thousand nine hundred and seventy was on the warm commission, and he didn't buy the, we did not buy the conclusions at all. And he told other people that he was really inDiana. And he stood up and made some noises about on on the floor, the house, about how the C I was, you know, doing things they were not supposed to do domestic politics and had unchecked power at, said.

And he was immediately denounced as mentally ill. And then he disappeared in a plane crash with baggage in one thousand and seventy two as the, I was never seen a good. So I mean, i'm not saying that he was he was murdered for that though. Yes, I would not at all be surprised he was. But why is he the last time to say anything .

like that more because he did not that I mean, this is thing is know, uh, I remember that one, they're snowing, reporting when there was all this controversy about government spying a people. And the big reaction that I got that had been cultivated for a long time, not about the government of the facebook. Mark Rogers, famous said, privacy is our cake value.

whatever. Don't worry about private anymore. People are saying, I don't know anything died, i'm not a terrorist.

I'm not a pad of file. I don't care what my government spying on me. And I would always say, everybody has things to hide. There are things that you don't tell anybody.

There are things you only tell your psychiatry, only your spouse, only your best friend, things that you don't want to know, other people to know that you're patch fied if everybody knew about you. We, we are private. We need, we're social animals. We need connection to to society, other people, but also create privacy. Without privacy, we go insane.

And there's no freedom of our privacy.

none. Because that's where dissent and creativity and exploration and rejection of social that words in in in the private realm without that, if you're just being surveilLance and watch all the time that breach conformity. And so everybody needs privacy, everybody values that, everybody has something to hide and the ability to survey people to know everything about. I think what what actually happens is we're so invocation from birth to have this very ideal alisal image of our country and our government. And in some ways it's value like I think I reveal the constitution, you know, I went to school to study IT and that I went to practice IT like I believe in its values that I think it's a genius document comes from the enlightenment, like just a very like actually be face optically base idea.

How was constructed like very carefully? And are things very good about the united states? But if you think that the most powerful country on the planet, the richest and most powerful country arguably ever do exist, doesn't have at its core terms of the people who run IT, people who are going to do anything to preserve their power, to augment their power, and IT just takes a kind of a day that's almost impossible.

People risk death every single day in this country to Robert stores for three hundred dollars. So you can tell me that control of the trAiling dar federal agency, of a multi trAiling dark government, with best .

the power to to decide who gets bombed.

where most powerful institution, human history doesn't .

have sensor things going on.

people do to control that. No, the sticks are very high and I think the closer you are to a the more often you forget that you're like I was a secretary of whatever. Who cares? Well there's you know people care, understand leaders. People do anything for power and money well that's so distressing, did you um in your reporting and I always forget that you know you were behind the student thing and thank you for that what a wonderful guy is um but did you ever get any hint of what the pressure is is applied to politicians to comply.

obey yeah well first while do you think like good time about people who why don't people stand up like that was in is a perfect example of somebody who believe the mythology of the government believed, you know, he went to enlist in order to fight iraq. He broke both his legs. He couldn't join militaries who want to work for the C.

A. And the N. S. A, because he really believed in the. And then what he saw was so horrifying, was so corrupting, was so deceitful, that he risked his life in his liberty, which, to the day he was deprived of to inform everybody about what was going on by stealing under the nose documents that he could give to reporters so that reporters could tell the boy was happening that is kind of an example of that level of courage of somebody saying, here's what's going on um what someone gave us was a tiny picture of what the nsa does.

So obviously, if there have been in there like specific black bells sort of uh documents about how they were spying a particular politicians at something we would have no reported on very aggressively and and very early on. So I can't say I saw that, but what I did see is all sorts of incidents of people, the N. S. A, abusing the authority to spy on people who they had no right to be spying on, including sometimes so just things as trivial is like x girlfriends or funny members um but also when in other countries they wanted to impede, harm somebody, they spite on those people all the time and use that information in part to gain power of them so of course, who how can you expect human beings to resist that of all power when it's all Operating in the dark?

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So I mean, you you can't have anything like representative government with that system in place.

The the whole idea of having national security acaai sm intelligence community that Operates and complete secrecy y and that just does what he does permanently without end and constantly expands authorities and powers because there is no political gain .

to its budget.

your asses its budget, which nobody was. One of the things we actually able to see was the black book of the intelligence budget. And we were put in on the things that, you know, we thought were were news worthy about that there's zero transparency to any of this. There's no oversight.

You technical have like oversight in congress, in the senate, the senate intellects committees and sleep committees that were created after a church commission found all these know with the church commission found just by itself, you know, C A, A developments of medications to try and like, you know, make people lose control of their brains, or inject people with diseases like really sinister, dark, oft the C I was doing that nobody knew about, not even the president. They just did IT on their own. IT was a discovery of a secret government inside the governments.

The idea was what we need, at least some oversight this overnight. They tell nothing to these committees. The people who get put on those committees are people who are the ones who most support these intelligence communities that was run in the senate for years by diane.

Instead, her husband was a military contractor. SHE was embedded in these agency. SHE defended everything that they did the one time SHE question them, which was when SHE wanted to investigate the use of torture in the C.

I A. John brennan, C. I, A, spied on dian feinstein and on our entire staff.

He got caught doing IT. He lied and said he didn't. He finally admitted that he was done.

He apologized. There were no repercussions. I got to go google john running spying.

And i'll never forget IT and when that story first broke IT was years ago was at least .

ten years was he was C I .

directed er obama and remember thinking I don't think the C I would ever dare spy on the select committee on the senate oversight committee of the C I of the until community. I mean, can imagine they would have the balls to do something like that. That's insane. But I had no way.

I didn't know somebody who was one of their most their blindest loyalists the one time he stepped a little bit out of wine because he wanted to invest in exactly what happened in the torture at that point. Like.

why don't you why have people put up with that? I guess Frank church did die of incredibly fast acting cancer. So maybe that's why, I mean, people must be afraid, as you'd think out of fourteen and thirty five, five hundred and thirty five, the senator be somebody like this is not democracy. This is totally immoral. Like i'm going to stand up and take them on like.

let's say that, you know, people had things on you that would, as you put IT destroy your reputation, make your kids think very important, live you will embarrass you for the rest of life, will destroy whatever you value in life IT takes a very rare person to say effort i'm going to a risk that happening um and you know I think we have the self preserve tactic. That's why those kind of things like blackmail, extortion are so effective as because they can force people to no, I think I I .

think you you you're right.

Look at how much these like sexual misconduct allegations are used when jill na son really got dangerous, suddenly I D have nowhere appear to women claiming that he, uh, corn raped because allegation was that consensual sex, or but he didn't use a condom when they had not given their consent to no condom. And that became rape under studious law that took force them to the ecuadoran embassy and let to everything that happens subsequently.

Now with that gates um the minute mckee pete acg have to like out of nowhere appears this alleged rape that nobody had heard about, that nobody knew about, is always thing that always misses me. This is actually the best example, in case anybody thinks, oh, our government didn't do that when Daniel elsewhere licked the penguin papers to see your time in the watching the post. And I remember when I first heard about this, I was kind of confounded about why this happened.

I will see they were saying the Normal things you say about people I got ago, the soviet. I said he hates america. He put troops and harms way because he showed the public that the government was lying for years about the vn, or more like inside. They were saying we can never win out externally. Ly, they were saying we were on the verge of winning.

But what they also did, and is the only reason Daniel burger, that up phrase right, is they broke into a psycho analyst office because they wanted to steal all the documents about his most intimate uh, admissions to his psychology, about his psychosexual life and fantasies because that was the weapon of choice that they wanted to use to destroy y him. That's a fact. The next administration broke into the psycho anal s office of Daniel elsberg when they couldn't find the documents they planned to break in at the guy's house and that was, they finally put a stop to that, but they did break into a psycho animal office and only because of the government misconducted.

The judge dismissed the charges against Daniels berg, who oh wise was had a depression for the rest of his life. Why would that be your response to a whip lower, revealing to the press, then reveal to the public that the government was systematically lying about the van and more. It's because if you can have that information over somebody and then use IT against them, you destroy.

I remember when when to happen, join the and no one wanted anything to do with. Join the and no one to anted to mention this name is just like, do this person's guilty of of accused of rape? I just don't want anything to do with that. So if you could have shown that any elsberg at this fantasy had done this or had done that in the intimacy and privacy of his own life. IT is everybody who wanted to avoid dually.

It's totally true. Did you ever find yourself on the wrong intimate of that since you were very high profile?

I mean, I think the important thing is that if you want to confront the government, if you want to spell secretary, if you want to bring unwanted transparency, which happens to be the job of journalist, I know people forget that, but that is the job of journey you to journ to try to deal.

You have to, as best you can guard against that, like you have to protect yourself, make sure that your own houses in order as much as possible, because that will be a huge vulnerability. But as I said before, everything has everyone has things to hide. No one who doesn't.

One hundred percent. And and is also true that you know, you get really attacked in a in a scary way. You don't want talk about that. I mean, I feel, I feel that I have been that has happened, you know, not sex stuff, but I ve definitely a lot of pressure and you don't you don't want to you know.

it's not just sex of all sort of things. Are the agencies .

trying to hurt you?

Yeah, I mean.

don't this is here's the thing like.

you know, I think a lot of people remember, but my husband, who is another seat, but at the time he went to germany because there was a part of the archive that was corrupted. And we knew there was a lot I remember. And IT was with lord pointers, and SHE, using her genius, had figured out how to access that no one else could.

But SHE didn't trust anybody, including the guarding, to give IT you to bring to me. The only person SHE trusted was David. I couldn't travel outside.

Violence was a concern that would be arrested by the U. S. So I had to stay in brazil so only David could go and get those documents. And the way we talked about IT was in a very secure, secret way. We're using the highest soil of encysted at the time, that snow in system.

And when David went to germany, he came back home through he throw, but that he threw the british, arrested him and detained him and threatened to prosecute. And an entire and the only reason they let him out was because the brazilian government IT became a huge story in brazil. The brazilian government was that give us back our citizen immediately.

And so they let him go. And then David sued the british government over human rights abuses because they were the tAiling him for journalism. And the british government said in their papers when they defended their actions, we knew exactly what he was doing in germany.

We knew exactly what he was Carrying, and that the reason why we detained him, because we wanted to prevent these secret documents from getting out into the public, because that harms british. Now, scary. Obviously, we ve got the archive anyway and we reported on those documents. They admitted they knew and we're listening to our conversations about why he was going there. They knew when he was going there, they everything was being tracked and so knew you ever figure .

out how I knew they were using.

I mean, part of the reporting that we did was that the N. N. S. A had cracked even the most ophrys c levels of encysted. So things that people thought we're safe, there's nothing one hundred percent full proof. And at the time, we were among the most watched people in the world, because we had in our hands the most sensitive secrets from the world's most powerful government, that we were going around the world publishing to inform people of journalists, ally. And so of course, we knew where we are being spied on by probably a lot of people is just the british were forced to admit when you get that confirmation as opposed to like a belief for suspicion, the level of invasiveness you feel is hard to express because they're not just listening to the parts of your conversations where you're talking about the stone dock.

I like, oh, I know oh, I know first hand, yeah no.

I no I mean, you have private conversation. Sleep as well when .

you are turned yeah but for 点 and massive problems with ukrainian until service h IT IT。 But it's something about me. I don't hold any instance power.

It's just interesting if you see what happens in your own life just by talking about i'm done anything ever to sit on studios, talk people, uh but you know you see the pressure they applied to you like what would you like to be know? The chair until committee, the speaker, the house for the president, the nine states I can even imagine and IT shows what a remarkable person trump is. He is just he's whirly resistance to that stuff and that is that's why they have me .

remember all the stuff that came out twenty sixteen and they thought he might win like the access holly's tape that nowhere and you know the the charme Daniel stuff you think through everything out there. And trump is is a very rare person who's just kind of shameless, less like he doesn't feel a sense of shame and he doesn't back down no matter what he goes.

He gets more aggressive against people he tried to force to is just his instinct to two years. I watched him for many decades when I was a layer in new york, when he was a no big, real stable, constantly being suit and lawsuit. Everybody knew how he was.

And that's what is so threatened about him. It's not his ideology is the fact that that cares one. It's the fact that he's immune to the type of control that for decades theyve been able to impose on people who wield any power, let alone the power of the presidency.

Just typed to the um the current state of U S. Russia relations are the war that were about to look how do you how do you think this ends?

I mean, if you're still in moscow. Obviously, if there's a road of weapons you aimed at moscow and Petersburg or major cities, that's one thing. If there is a limited number of missiles aimed in court square, ukraine forces, that's another a and obviously they know what we talked about.

What is that in about seven weeks there is going to be a new american president with you maybe dealt extensively and despite claims that he's some sort of me know lucky of putin, he basically did the two things that were most interruption interest. He he sent farms to ukraine after obama refuse to. Trump did.

I didn't agree with that, but that's what he did. And what he did even more so that was more threatened, damaging to russia is he spent years trying to bad the europeans. Why would buying from russia? You're getting dependent on russia and where the ones you pay for your protection, you should be buying IT from us, that the north selling natural gas.

Europe was the anchor, the key to russian vital interests, and trump threaten those vital interests continuously. So the idea, like anyone who's even a little bit rationally thinking, would understand that this clam, that he is being black, milled by putin, while at the same time he simultaneous ously doing the two most threatened things to rush vite, all national interest. You would immediately recognize what a fictitious claim that was.

So he's being black member that he was intel agencies. And in fact, our government is the fashious state .

that they claim rushes exactly so so and that's just dressing. So I think they they just coming in and and they feel like he wants to go to different interaction with the war. And so even though there is going to be pressure on putin, as there would be on the united states and any other country to respond in kind to nate on the united states now bombing russia, basically, I think as long as it's limited, as long as IT stays limited to curse, as long as it's not, you know, in large numbers, knowing that trump is coming into office, I think they understand that that's an opportunity to train and this war without its equation. I hope again, as he said, we're depending on putins restraint and rationality.

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So um among the many people don't jump a spoken to since winning we can half ago is a join ica and I just cover mika brain ski up they have a very low rated show on M S B C which I do think has outsize influence. The numbers are really are small people watching and watch that's exactly IT. That's exactly right.

And so I think the show does have influence like I disagree with every single word ever udea on that show, but I don't think it's totally and significant. It's read. So uh they went to my logo to me with trump um like what do you make? And then now they are saying what we went because we are afraid that we're going to be persecuted if we didn't kiss the ring or something .

like it's what the excuses even more pathetic, which is word journalist, you have to go and talk to the power. But I I think those who in particular are singular pathetic. And I realize saying single pathetic and the context of employees of the corporate media seems like a designation that no one is are alone.

But I think in their case, they really marry that distinction because I think like most of the people who work in corporate media, like the racial mad, like the world, so donors and the Donald and those kind of people, I think they believe all the insane on hindi guy. I think they really believe that I think is a russian agent, that putting is black melly hand the trumps es to like put them in camps like I, it's insane. But I credit for at least actually saying what they really believe is as proposal is unlovable, as that is, joe karbon has no beliefs other than his own advancement and self importance OK.

Let's remember, in the one hundred and ninety he was elected. None is a republican age man, but is a radical conservative engg firebrands going to go like a radially reform to change the the country and and washington. No more of that anywhere.

Angle scarboro this radical transformation of institutional power. And then, as Megan Kelly said, no showed more to boost yle trump in two thousand fifteen and two thousand six tee in in the in the republic and primary than jowin mia. They were down at parole.

G all the time. They love trump. They were best friends with trump. They laugh with him. They let them call another show all the time.

Part, because I was very beneficial to that show, was only thing that really eat. Trump saved all their jobs, but they also love just being proximate to power like that. That's the thing that they create most. And then once what really happened was scarberry thought that he was going to be chosen as trump ze president, he really wanted to. And when trump projected him in favorite mike pants, and then also M S N B C turned into this tile anti trump network, where the only people who watched for trump Peters at, both at a personal in front, but also at the survival, they had to turn into a full on trumpeting show, you couldn't have the morning show of three hours be someone positive or neutral about trump on the whole rest .

of the twelve. Everyone watch scarboro, who is really well, he thought is .

going to be via yeah that's why they remember how close I know. I remember that I didn't know ah ah ah he that's should .

come to the end days more often.

And I learned a lot. I think my distance is what enable to learn things. So yeah, that was a big part of IT.

And but also IT was survival at M S. M. B. C and so they turned into these, you joker ba, mister radical conservative, let's change relation work became mister institutionalize.

You know, the people out on a shower like Richard house and like norm all these like the foreign tions think people who who are obsessed ating trump as well, to became grounds europe trump, as Taylor they were saying as recently as two months ago or months ago, like trump is comfortable at eight of hilary, he is a not, I figure nick, a present, give one on the viewing, cried and said, trump wants to murder women. Women are going to die because of one of trump. He's a fascist.

He's a racist. They said IT every day over over. And then trump lin. And their whole influence was because they were joe bide. And's favorite show, joe biden would wake up like six. I M like many geert rics do because he went to bit like seven or clock P M.

And you would watch morning joe and then he would here, you know, joe biden, the great president, to have the art job scarper, said that he personally can assure the country, having spent some more time around you, are by, and that he sharper than ever. He runs intellectual circles around all the republicans who are claiming that he's cognitive ly impaired. Like a month before the debate, he was saying that.

So of course, they job and watched that show every day. That's what gave joe scarborough SE of important as I go home close to the White house was the White house all time. Now bindon's gone bit is going to ask any more, trump is back in power. And one of the things that has happened amazingly since the since come as well is that the M S N B C R, which was already tiny, has basically completely disappeared, like the number of people watching those shows when they live in prime time with that big gigantic corporate power behind them promoting IT.

It's it's less than a lot of like youtube shows including yeah including like I don't mean like the humility audience of how many people watch youtube or youtube deo at the end the day I just mean live watching again bunging o show has I think you rumble has like five or six or seven times more. M S N B C, prime time, this is on rumble, you know, which a lot of people don't even know about, don't even watch. Um that audience is gone in part because they feel the illusion that the people they trusted who told them trump was going to person the old trump families is going to person trump could never win.

He was going to be in jail for the election. All the women were going to rise up and involved for coma of anger told trump none of that happened and they're i've been washing the show every day for nothing. I was, I was.

None of IT happened. None of IT was true. And that audience is gone.

Half fat of disillusion in anger, but half out of dislike. Kind of checking out through impedance and help. And I think that they're desperate.

The only way they think they can get people to come back on is to have trump come back on their show and their trump is going to make them crown on the four multiple times. They were like, joe maker were like, trump is incredibly, uh, cheerful and happy. Of course he was. He loves seeing you humiliate yourself because you, he knows you need them. Now.

england.

I don't think that.

you know, weekly interview with trumpet is not going to happen anyway. But even if I did, was gonna ve said no.

because who would watch IT? Because no conservatives are going to trust that show or M, S, B C, and no liberals want to see M, S, M B C hose. You don't help. Angry liberals are about just even the fact that jono went to to maroo. So who who's the audience .

for their caught like this train? You know I have to say of all the reasons i'm so grateful that come or lost um seeing democrats turn on this training and seeing her stranded between the parties and no man's lands honestly I can there is a piece by generals in the nation to don't read the nation much anymore but you occasionally the nation is like kind of true to itself not but so not I don't agree with that.

But john never went this piece about common hair, say where he he goes through like all the places that he went with this. Anyway, we come a Harrison like I did IT not work. SHE turned to offer republicans.

Like the idea was we've got this train campaigning with us. A lot of republic do like, don't trumper vote for us. It's like, just the opposite happened.

Know, so predictable and so obvious. Also like what make homos campaign like for the six seconds that IT seemed like IT had some like air to IT.

Was this like viBrant y of Young people, you know, like celebrating the emergence? You then take this e and like send bill clint to michigan to, like lecture everybody in the muslim hate to you, because even buying IT as well about how the israelis are totally right, it's all the falt of the and then you take lives, tip chinese daughter with you through the rustbelt, where like all those policies, the lives all s and you think this do you think about, I mean, this is a think, think about how out of touching coster and in a bubble, you have to be to think that you're going to win an election depending on people who are in the working class. You feel alienated from society.

You feel like dc doesn't work for you by taking the daughter of like the face of the american establishment, dc chaining around with you as if she's you're running mate and people are craving change and you have sitting there with less chain like that through your own. People only know because SHE SHE was the vice president's s daughter. Her her dad was dic.

chi. And not just the Cheney, but somebody who supports a whole range of policies that americans vampy reject now. And I think that's more than anything but people, like people in media have funny had to come to gripes with this.

First of all, it's good that this is actually in the sea. Even the people campaign in the least of morning. But we will be that I decided it's good that these chinese specifically is not any other positions. But I think the best thing is that you have all these people inside these closer bubbles in washington who really thought that they were the conscience of the nation, the voice of the nation, and none only where they are potting the decision to take on a china.

But they have been spending eight years claiming the Donald trump s is a White premises who wants to put minorities in camps and not only the Donald trump s in the election, but there was millions of nonWhite voters who, for the first time at the democratic party and went to vote for trump. So imagine you wasted eight years of your life screaming and screeching like a petch Ellen bird who has been like shot. Not of truth are races in the fashion he hates.

He only like sweet people. And then you watch millions of lta o people and black people and eight people and muslims refused to vote for comment. Hairs you have, you see, like, I have no influence at all. I'm completely out of time.

but it's so good to know that about happen to me. By the way, there all. Veramente opposed to abortion, which I think is like horrifying and but lots you'd agreeth me.

And so I see this rov e wade comes down and you see these about initiatives. So you know, we're going to allow the portion til birth. And oh, i'm so glad to suck for a vote and then try out the vote.

Just don't go with me at all. And even in red states, it's true. It's true like that was hard for me to except because I am I never talked to about IT, but I was just so i'm so sincere on the subject. I'm not for abortion, period and so but you have to be real like, okay, sometimes people growth, you sometimes they don't but there's something about the democratic base, which really is just basically just like unhappy college .

educated White ladies that's really .

who IT is related to some happy ones. They are not voting for commonly hair, but the ones who are sort of disappointed their husbands and in their lives or whatever. I get IT, i'm not being in the district, but they should know that they are in the subset of a subset and that not everyone agrees them. I think that's the beginning of that.

I think in the same, I go out of my way to read everything everybody know. I trying to people my lives who have very different views, a of in brazil, for example, who people here in between, I want that I got wanted, hear you, want to be chAllenge ed all the time, not be assisted. I'm telling you, I know all of these people.

I used to be M S M C all the time. I've been friends thought of the people who spise me with burning passion, but uh, in part because nobody hates things more than no one. The person always most hated as the one perceived as the hit house.

But I was never really on their side in the way they thought actually anyway. But anyway, doesn't matter. The I I know all of these people, and what has happened on M S, M C, is that or or places like in your times, a bad page.

Similar people who support trump don't exist in that world. There's not one up pad paid writer at the york times of the dozens who is a trm supporter, even though how the country is more than how the country is. I lost two thousand like the person closest to like sort of understanding the trump of women.

But he certainly doesn't like some trump at all. And other that don't IT doesn't exist the world. There's nobody ever on the m MBC on their shows who brings that perspective of why they support donal trump. So if you only talking to people who are like minded and a lot of them have now left twitter trying to go to another platform where only there they they really don't want hear and and you're living a certain kind of life, you know, they are well pay. They like are costed in these like apple ent places in other states, like in the east coast, like public land in manhattan, washington, original. How do you not realize that the life you're a leading is so fundamentally different from the people on whose behalf you claim to be speaking? And I do think a lot of them, even though they onna resist and battle IT, have to swallow this election as a complete repeating of not just themselves, but their entire purpose, life .

entire again. I just want to say how non judgmental I feel about this. That has happened to me.

I've been fired. I have found my views repudiated by the publicity large. Those are very important moments to me. Personally, they made me a Better person, so I am hoping that they internalize the pain and learn from IT. Do you think they will?

yeah. I mean, what always amaze me is like, you know, I really did grow like working about environment, but like my whole life, that was the only one. Yeah, no. I mean, there are people who grew up like you. I was like, poor, but I was not even near dona.

my I I mean, this, I don't know anybody in journalism. I know people's mom work doors. I don't know anyone in journalism.

Is mom work to do? I I guess my point is that like of course, that shape made for a long time, but I realized ed now that that's not my life any longer, like hasn't been for you know ten years. Fifteen years.

Like my life has been very super er from the so I have a great amount of humility about my ability to speak for people who have a different kind of life because you of course, the way you live shapes your perspective, shapes your understanding, shapes your priorities. And IT amazes me that these people don't have that humility at all. And so I I think they're resisting IT like they are.

You know, that was what obama did. Remember when he was I that I know there's all men who don't want to vote for a company who are going to over trump. S because you all hate women in your methodius and then they're basically .

saying the reason a lot of t an .

gant dush bag to say something like that and you know and there is a perfect example, like he spends all with the, and then he thinks is going to go and speak to like black oran classmate, you d disagree .

with me you're a bigger that's like that's such a crazy place .

to start conversation so you know that I think this kind of kind the thing the main argument is that like they're all stupid like their victims of this information, they are misled. The have all these alternative media they're listening to that don't have the controls that have with us with the they're getting fall, basically the stupid, their easily missed y're global. So either they they raced or a massaging ist or stupid.

That's your explanation. That's the thing they're cleaning to. You know like oh, they don't realize how good they had to understand how grade the economy is. How much come Harrison joby did for them.

They just don't they were told that IT was done true that can't figure that out for on their own, like the conversion really out of, I just IT uses out of every poor of their being. And then they wonder why people despise them in their culture. And their subculture is who who wants that.

IT is nauseating. But despite so what i'm saying is that there not they don't have the attitude you had, which is like, oh, it's actually good to be humbled to like realize that things that you thought about the world need to be reevaluated. There's no self criticism, no reflection.

In fact, every democrat looks like, oh yeah, I know why we lost. It's been not what I was saying all on none of them we're saying that. But you know, they like democrat, did this and commonly did that.

You know, they all are trying to pretend that the people had just us into them. The democrat would have won. No along there will I go come running the most brilliant amp. Ign ever. But what i'm saying is that the result is so overwhelming, so kind of pointed in devastating to their world view. As I said, I think the thing that has really shaken them the most, even though they are fighting IT, they are embracing IT, they're fighting IT, but they can, is that so many on White voters, oh, are the and trump made huge gains in almost every non White sector of society. I mean, trump was saying that new jersey in new york, or swing states and people are laugh at him and he only got new jersey by five points and did not the best any republican an has done in in in new york city in many, many years because of how many black Martino and worse asians and muslims voted for trump, nonWhite voters. And so when that happens, like you don't even get to blame White people, but you, you, you have to accept that the people who you think you own, who have minus loyalty to you, disobey and didn't listen to you, that's what makes them feel really shaken.

slave. And if you read the accounts of people who live through slave or walls, not just in the american south, but like you are inhaled or, you know, anywhere, there are always, wherever you have slaver, you've got slave or walls. At some point, they're always so shocked like they they they can't .

believe .

that like the nami came after them with a knife .

like I we thought you loved us. It's so critical to the world. Beauty, belief? No, it's I mean, those people central to their world view is that their penny lent leaders of these people.

It's like that seen in the animal house, old, he loves us. He does drunk. Red boy, yes, no. People always imagine the people they control, their employees, their serves, love them.

And what they need to understand, I think, is, is just true in life, is that the people supported to resent you. They may like you, but they also important alone. That's what i'm saying, right? And it's one of the reasons you see hostility among women toward managed in general, not defining characteristic. But there's a little bit of there's a little bit of that if you want sexual position, you're like a little man about IT. I'm just i'm sorry I think that sorry to channel doctor or royd.

but there's some truth in them and it's your time before. But i've said so many times like just uh if you belong to one of these so called marginalized groups yeah that liberals think they own, you have an entitlement control you will never see more naked and unadorned bigotry, contemptuous bigotry, that you will see toward individuals with the that group who disobey, say, like I remember when I really started putting from the left, i'd never had real the home of hoping in my entire life before. I only started seeing IT like once .

I had once you questioned the before you remember the L B G.

exactly what do you know things and oh and like the way they have always talked about, i'm sorry no, it's, it's, it's amazing.

It's the way they talk about, you know, any black person who who has been A A A conservative, same with like women who are you know, gym said about the people, the Young women who are refusing to work for Hillary and voting for bernie when asked like why they were doing that, he is like because Young girls go where the boys are, you know, like the most demeaning and sorting thing you can say about women that they don't think on their own. They just like mindlessly do whatever the boys are. Now you're seeing like, oh yeah, like like tenos like a very massaging tic comparative.

So are black men. They hate women. No, they're easily misled. There are low information voters. You know, the amount of contempt that liberalises have for these non White voters who didn't do as. Told is almost scary, scary because it's a psychological condition that.

of course, why they hate Whites, that they're been because they are losing the weight vote. And the second they started lose the weight vote and Whites became the problem in the country. So where is this interview hate coming from? What's coming from the democratic party institutionally, because they are being .

rejected by weight foah. They were ready. They thought they were going to get weight women to embrace, like weight women. We're going to rise up and join them against trump at a majority of White women voted for trump.

incredible. So they're gonna get. I mean, I will say to his his antics in the united states, you're about to be the hate him because.

oh, I don't like that. And muslims too, who didn't want for because the first, because they were treating and I can't tell how many times i've seen, I can't weight to you people are reported. I can't wait to see you blown up in gaza.

There is a sentiment like you're going to get what you deserve and i'm going to laugh about IT and i'm going to cheer IT same with with fatos I can't wait. You're deported. You're going to get what you deserve on your abas is deported I six up joy read i'm not time out obscure people on the internet.

She's gone on the almost every night and talk that way. Attack nabs. The best part about this is .

the language barrier. And very so few liberals like even rather to listen to what people actually think or say they is that not interested? You know, it's like they treat every of three year old. But when they find out the social views of your average central american, which I find the areas and kind of great, but whatever, leaving my views at aside, the average social views of the central america, just on the social issues are so far considered about.

but they have no idea, which is I write because democratic s about what if you say you've got call is always from a the placement theory that over going to import all these people in united states, make some citizen and they gna be supporters of the democratic.

We're going to rain forever, like a thousand years, because these are all our voters and they get here and they find out that actually but but I have to say like there's a great article in york magazine which is words that past my left very very rarely where this writer um who actually got a very critical profile of being like five years ago. So who his name is Simon, I I I just talked him today about this article because the great article I wish mirrors I don't know his name but that can member's last name. Um it's high fined so it's a little complicated bit.

Anyway, I really recommend this article. He just went what he did was he purpose sly went to black like, you know uh asian neighbor ods, where there was a lot of trump votes and he just walked around on the street talk to as many people as he could who voted for trump about why. And what I think people don't understand is that the latino and black N.

G, O presidents to get put on T. V, we are supposed there for, yeah, have less in common. Oh, with the people on whose behalf they're speaking.

Then, like the White host of these shows, I I got attitudes that are pretty popular. Those are right exactly. But still, like, you know, a lot of them are just like, far from being like, you know, deceived by this information.

They are like, there was the democratic party that supported after the I like we're having trouble paying for our health care of food, for our kids and they are sending billions of dollars to ukraine, into israel, to all these other countries. They're just talking about the struggles that they have in their lives in the way in which the government doesn't care. There are some social issues of too, but once you get to united state to become a citizen, you integrate pretty quickly.

And the thing you you don't sit around things about trans people or whatever, gay marriage or these are ancillary issues. Even they agree with the party they that may contribute to the alienation the fact, you know they had. That's why that cma ad was effective not because people are sitting around thinking about where their trans people should get government funded uh, sector assignment is in person but because I was like a proxy for explaining that these people have nothing in common with your lives.

They don't care about you. They don't care about your values. Have they felt economically satisfied? I don't think that would resent because that would be able care about. But most of them are just worried about the same thing everybody else is worried about. And they finally got to the point where they we've been.

So they're even more worried exactly.

There are the people who get most affected, especially immigration too. I mean, the people who lose their jobs. And immigration often are White people back back working class, like tina working class.

And if you were resentful about everything that's being done for you, there is a lot of, oh, they're giving free housing and free meals to illegal immigrants. While I can't feed my family, I really recommend the article. It's not done with cricket ure. It's not like him. Picking a few comments is a very long article and IT just let these people speak for themselves in a very revealing way.

What's just so funny as you live in brazil, which is another continent, you've been there a .

while twenty years.

but I benefit. I called you the week before. The arch one should have done right, pretty.

But on if I said, what do you think black and actio people, men, married people in new york city around the country? What do you think they think politically? I bet you would have been pretty. I would.

You live here? I know, but I lived here, like, for the first thirty eight years of my life, is the only country of which i've ever been a citizen. I've here all the time, but I do think that. And how do you know that they don't? That's the point.

I think that distance gives you A, A, A perspective like the fact that I my friends are not media and political people on new york and washington, that i'm not cooked into their to their world view, that i'm not subsumed with that, that I am not depending upon IT anyway, gives me. I think you brought a perspective like, if you live in northern Virginia and you like spend all your time in washington, in Green rooms or new york, you're gonna so distorted in the things, think about the world. But also, I think you have to go out to your weight to to, okay, I don't want to be told what people think by other people who are representing to their anna, hear from them directly.

I want to look at the polling data. I want to understand what they're thinking and you could just see that you could hear that you could feel that you could observe IT tics in data but they just I remember people in c and and saying, you know, I think I was, uh, van Jones no is but Carry sellers who was like I can I don't care what the polls say. I can guarantee you there won't be more than five percent of black men voting for Donald trump I don't care what the polls say. There won't be anywhere near fifteen percent .

of you know he but Carry sellers of the yeah just like I don't care the poll say i'm not like a few you know i'm not a huge expert on black amErica and I don't have a million black friends, but I am actually like actual friends. I don't know a liberal black guy. I know some who wrote for democrats, whatever, but I don't know. I literally don't accept, like the guys you seen, Green born to prince, and like fake creatures or something, but like actual black, I don't know any what.

And but this is, if you think about the democratic party, the thing you fear most is that these groups that have been voting for you for generations and have been pass, had loyalties passed down from their parents and my parents, who don't even think about not voting for you at the election once that breaks. I'm not saying that those people who voted for temple never vote democrat again, but now they know there's an option. They're free people. They they and nothing is more alarming or or or patch file to democratic party elites than seeing that.

I think it's really good. It's good for the country um the democratic party and its you know current iteration is just is almost purely destructive um and shouldn't be you you need a two party system or both parties are represent .

have it's integrated. Like I remember like the smartest republicans, like j vands ah josh holy like the ones who really understand that you can have the same republican parties you did one thousand and eighty have always been describing the future of their hobby, an party as a multi racial working class coalition. And to watch people identifying primarily based on their citizenship and their class, that's .

central. Else you have rWanda, I mean because you know your class um can change but your race doesn't change. And so if you and gender conflict on the basis of immutable characteristics is not solvable and so you don't want to ever do that, you make people hate each other based on how much they make, okay, where they live even. But that gives .

them the idea of change. I K, we can change the government. Actually, the characters do I .

know that a ian lood few eight hundred years do has been the predominant liberal.

lin said, is to encourage people to see themselves as part of insulated factions who hate other factions based on those characteristics. And there's almost nothing more offensive to me about what american liberalism writ large has done then trying impose that framework on people, to divide people based on things that, in fact.

don't divide them. Well, yeah, especially the experience of just like living in this country, you know, it's so different from what they describe. But I have always spent on the right.

I've never had anybody, anybody whose black or his spanker none would ever attacked me one time in public as a racist. I've only had a phone. White women attacked me that way.

I don't see people hating each other on the basis of race. I don't. I'm true ther's races.

And I know that there is because people are flawed. But I is not a defining fact in this country that I have ever known. I don't know what they how they're talking about. And they are trying to scared .

they shoot out of people to get their votes. That's IT one obviously millions of non people agree with for the White, the black one I know, and the White candidate who they were told was IT off hitler and wanted to put all my White people in camp say, I we're looking around there. That's not my experience.

So I got a one last question like that. We begin the conversation with. The war that we're now when I win a war with russia um and that really is something that the by definition ration is doing to punish the incoming triumph administration, I think, and to prevented from acting now with the autonomy any administration should have but they're also gona leave all behind all kinds of I mean, not to spend the next seven weeks doing nothing and more of the things are going to try to do is increased censorship. I think over the next seven weeks or I just being paranoid.

I think you're right. They're obviously not going to do nothing. They're going to try and fortified thing as much as possible from kind of change american people of the party democracy center.

Ship, in my view, began like system x. Censorship on the internet began as a reaction to twenty sixteen, both to the trump. That's when you saw the emergence of these highly wall funded disinformation experts, the concoction of this fake expertise called disinformation experts.

What how do people get to be that where where you go to school to be a disinformation expert? I got floating arbitral of truth. But they needed to radically intensify censorship because they blamed free speech and the free for of information.

And, uh, they blame that for for brazed first, but especially for transfer tory. And they wanted to crack down on that. There's always now an ongoing effort to trying to crack down on that. Um I think though what they are going to trying to do is look at the areas that they believe trump is trying most radical change beginning with foreign ign polity thing that they value that's by far you center piece of how amErica runs in their view and they are in to spend as much of their time so burning him and sabotage him in advance even though he just won the election by a pretty a solid margin.

And there are some things that i'll be reversible, but if you escalate the war in ukraine, and trump now is coming into a war that the russians for eive accurately to be, not just a proxy war with the west behind ukraine, but where needed is actually bombing russia, IT becomes infinitely more difficult to keep under control and to resolve. The problem is, is that the risk of this are so great that IT IT actually sickens me more than almost anything i've ever seen, that they're going to do this on the way out. Just prevent this worth mending and trifling with the risk of a nuclear exchange with the lives .

of every person on earth. Yeah um I just got a close by saying, uh, there's been in journalist in my whole life. I know spent a lot, lot of time more journals break him at the risk they take never known in journalist who's been threatened with prison more times. And you have probably once every six months.

I just check to make .

sure you suing. You're gna wind up in prison for chAllenging the powerful and revealing what they're actually doing. So I just want to say congratulations on reining.

Thank you. appreciate. Always been such an easy. There have been times when i've got pretty close, including recently, but uh, I feel if you're not hated by and feel and perceived as a threat by people in power, you're not doing your job. That's for sure what I really believe.

Well then by that measure, the most successful generalist gender. Thank you. Thanks for listen and tuck across and show. If you enjoy ID IT, you can go to talk or cross in that calm to see everything that we have made .

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