Former CIA Officer Amaryllis Kennedy: Iraq, JFK, and Everything Else Our Intel Agencies Lied About
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year visit live lock dog com slash podger terms apply. So this is a tweet from you don't Normally read people's tweet bad. In standing with ukraine, the biden Harry administration convinced them ukraine to abandon a peace deal that would have ceded only half of the territory that rush now occupies, and for that opportunity to lose twice as much of their homeland, they paid with tens of thousands of innocent lives.

We did this to control the eleven trillion of minerals under the dome as we did IT to grind down the russian warm machine on the grip of ukrainian teenagers. We did IT to hand out hundreds of billions of dollars to U. S.

Hedge funds who are, as we speak, carving up rights to ukrainian photo soil and vast minal resources. The truth is the next states has never stood with the people of ukraine. That is simply a jingle and add campaign broadcast to those who've never been there, designed to sell taxpayers on the appeal of prolong ying war for profit. We have caused ukraine her territory. We have caused ukraine and her children, the war hawks and the bankers are no friends to ukraine.

Well.

I was applying, as I read, that, how long in my truck?

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Here's the episode. I mean, it's a horror. It's a horror. And we are, I would just to allocated another hundred billion. I mean, it's and where is the and game?

But how did you get here? How did you get? I mean, I you were from, uh, you know, the same city basically and you are C I. Officer, and you're just from a world in which that is an extremely unpopular, never ur sentiment. How did you get to that?

Well, part of IT is pattern recognition, right? I mean, yes, we have done this before. And you know it's just how many times can you waded through years and years of a war with absolutely no stated and game and and dwindling public support and mounting civilian casualties and disintegrating homeland because all of your money is being spent, you know, fueling weapon ready to blow up over foreign skies and continue to print more money to pay for IT a and the answer the last time around was twenty years.

And I I want to make sure it's not again because, you know, here we are, thirty three trillion dollars worth of dead, and we are now paying more on those interest payments every year. Then we are on defense IT, completely unsustainable. And most importantly, are the human lives.

Yes, thousands of thousands of people who won't, you know, preparation danced their children's wait right and see the sunrise and drink a cup of coffee. And it's just that part of IT is completely lost. And when you when you hear our generals in our political leaders saying, do you understand this is a great thing, we are achieving this strategic game of diminishing russian military reserves.

And we don't even have to put a person on the ground. know. What they are saying is that those ukrainian children, and now, you know, old men and anyone else that they can put up against the front line, are lesser children of god than our own. That we would send over there. And um you know that doesn't fly with me so it's regnant yeah .

and I know you don't want to talk about yourself, but i'm because I do I think I understand your background pretty well. Um I just am fascine by the fact that you are saying this and no one uh very few people in the world from which honey, we both come uh are saying anything like this and so what why how did what how did you reach this conclusion? Of course, this pat n recovery tion, you're saying it's common sense like how could you not reach conclusion? Agree with you but how is that that almost no one else in washington is saying anything like this yeah.

I mean, I wish they would. And I think some of them are saying that, you know, uh in the privacy of their own conversations um but I came to a you know after nine eleven there was kind of a suspension of opposition to war in our country that yes maybe has has never let up. I mean there are some recognition now that that poor choices were made there, but in the moment when, you know, france was objecting, and we decided to call french fries freedom prizes, and, you know, there was A A, A real hunger for war.

and I remember gleefully participating in that. To my shame.

yes, IT was a collective psychosis, maybe a grieving process, or you know and for me, i'd just nine eleven happened as I was going into my last year university. And I I went to oxford overseas and I started in october. So I was home for my mom, lived in dc at the time, and I had a whole plan, was gna go to thailand after graduation and do human rights journalism.

And I sort of had a background there on the type border before, before school. And everything changed, as I did for so many in our generation, I think, on september eleven. Then for me, I I had lost one of my best friends and third grade on the flight that blow up over lock of scotland.

And IT brought a lot of that back. And I think hearing the war drums speeding for me, I hadn't oddly ly enough heard much about the intelligence world. I didn't.

I didn't know many of the things that I know now. I don't think I probably, we've gone into IT if I had. But I liked to the idea of a kind of secret diplomatic service. I like the idea that rather than conduct an incredibly expensive connect war, expensive both in terms of lives and treasures, that you could find out about something before IT happened and prevent the attack from happening in the first place, which admittedly was a quite of naive early twenties understanding of of the intelligence business. But add its best you know that is what IT does or what IT intends to do. I think where they get into tremendous trouble um is i'm tempted to say a mission creep but actually I was kind of built in to the entire O S S C A history but is when rather than going in and actually reporting what is happening in every corner of the world, they are making IT happen. Yes.

it's not really intelligent.

right?

It's a kind of secret military.

right? I mean rather than reporting that a who is about to take place you know, for absolute sure is .

about to this, right?

And that has not worked out in one hundred percent of cases as far as I can tell. And and yet again, we never learn our lesson. Mean, you look at what's happening in the middle. Ast, now, you know what seventy years is on post mock and every, oh, if only we had a demography like the leader in iran, we did, you know. And people, mayor may not agree with with each of these governments, but they are for the people of each country to work through. We had our own revolution in this country IT was a very important um you know stealing of our national values and I think you have to go through that yourself and I worry and iran the work you know hearing the beginnings of that again with this kind of royalist sentiment, monarchs sentiment of, you know well, the human rights abuses there are so agreeable that anything would be justified and if IT does not on any favors.

So I mean, what you're describing is conceptual corruption, like a corruption of of first principles. If the point of your foreign policy is to spread democracy, you can end democracy in the name of them. I mean, you just that's that's insane and no one says .

that yeah unless you're the democratic party in the united states these days who seem to be, you know, I have cut their teeth on ending democracy to save IT overseas and now are practicing the same theory here in the united states where they've told us for the last two years, you know, don't truly is such a threat to democracy that we must stage a palace coup, you know, replace our candidate with someone who hasn't received a single vote, undermine every other candidate of our own party and every other party in the courts, sensor american citizens, undermine the constitution, all in order to save democracy. So I think what we what we read overseas, we saw what we saw overseas, we read at home and more in the midst of that .

does seem like our foreign policy drives our domestic policy or that there isn't actually much of a domestic policy. There is not a great concern about what happens in the united states, in washington. I have noticed I came to this over forty years of washington, but um IT, that maybe was inevitable if you start overthrowing democratically elected governments abroad. Why wouldn't over time you think that's acceptable in your own country.

acceptable maybe even a noble I mean, you know the lies people tell themselves in order to persist with what is ultimately an incredibly profitable business model. But also, you know, if your end is stability and you tell yourself that stability requires control, know that there need to be small, short term sacrifices.

And I think we really are seeing that they are out in our domestic politics were increasingly, i'm seeing the first amen ment is an obstacle. Does the constitution, you know, actually serve us these kinds of questions and articles coming out in the media and democratic leaders. And I think there really is a symptom of what we have been spreading around the world.

And the results are playing to see, you know mean we had more americans slip into poverty over the last two years than any year in the last fifty with uh h our nuclear clock. You know we've take closer to midnight then and any time since creation in one thousand hundred and forty seven, a more more people died around the world in the first two years of biden Harris, for more in violence than in all four years of donor trump. But I think people don't really knife, and not even just because of ukraine.

Even if you take ukraine, I out of IT. And so I think that you know the insecurity that that we see there and then the fact that at home we have more children living in poverty than any origination exam. Romania, our life expectancy sets right above algeria, you know, in the one thousand nine hundred and ninety, if you were born in the united states, you could expect to live as long as in any other peer nation. And now you die six years earlier. He is six years of hanging out your grandchildren and watching the sunrise on your porch has just been robbed through absolute, utter lack of leadership on domestic health priorities and and I it's really time for a shake.

Up, everything you said is so nicely put in true. I wondered because you know a lot of the you know you know a lot of the people Operating our current foreign policy and you worked at one of the agencies prosecuting that form policy. Like did you detect these attitudes when you work there when you worked at see I did you get the sense that people felt IT would be OK to interfere in domestic politics in the us?

Well they were shocking on doing IT in other countries um and used a lot of the same tactics. I never witnessed any tendency to do IT in the U S. At all but IT also you I was working very specifically around I worked to UK is on and then um worked Operational on non proliferation but specifically within the context of non state actors.

So very focus to overseas watch the exact same playbook of going in finding underfunded newspapers and radio stations and T V shows. You know a benefactor r would arrive with funding um and all of a sudden you know that mouth pieces is presenting stories in a light that you know well aligns with U S. Foreign, icy or the the preferences of of whatever leader is in power here. And I think that we are seeing that across the board and media, except for a new media like this. And that's been a godsend.

which are I think that we're seeing federal agencies intelligencies influencing american media previously.

absolutely. I don't think that it's in as I mean, I doubt they are actually investors. Um there there are layers of us, right? I mean, you see at the most basic level it's um you run this story for me and i'll give you the best tip the next time that I have a lake right which is the oldest exchange in the world maybe .

the second .

st and and IT goes on you know every day. But there is no doubt that there are also actual formal sources throughout the media and always happened.

What does that mean? A formal source in the media?

I mean, you know, I asked somebody that would be paid by intelligence organizations to to work on their behalf, play stories on their behalf. And of course, that happens you all across the world. But when IT .

happens in the united states and at the end of democracy.

of course, well, look, I mean, we have set Operating basically a gura ticketing system for any tweet that the White house chooses to that they would like to see delete IT even if it's in just even if it's saat tire, they just put .

IT in the techniques yeah well.

what's interesting about this is that you know it's A A part of the department of human security, but it's supposed to protect our our nation's infrastructure from terror attacks. And at the beginning of the by administration a decision was made that information .

is infrastructure IT .

is now is that which you know an well ending to IT and as a result in order to secure IT no sesa was quietly empowered with the ability sometimes terrifying and sometimes through ng cut outs um to present to all the social media companies and wikipedia and amazon a any content that was flag as concerning and know bolo alerts out beyond the lookout and they held weekly meetings and said, you know here here put put an enormous amount of financial pressure on these companies saying you know that their legal protections from liability would be withdrawn if they didn't CoOperate, naming and shaming them if they took you know longer than a week to respond on something from the podium in the White house and mark ochberg, as you know, spoken publicly and and written um about the degree of pressure that he felt to sensor american people and were now seeing uk's labor party doing the exact same thing here in our own country. Which is you know in some ways more aggregation and and and in other ways you know .

what what .

what so UK the labor party of which is currently power in the U K has a series of ngos that IT funds and directs um that have wage war on free speech uh especially a what they call a twitter under mosque mosque twitter that they have gone into multiple offices a amy bh r commonly Harris and said, you know that they want to participate in and provide support for destroying mosques twitter and you know this is way they would be the .

dreaded foreign actor interfere in our democracy correct? They were always hearing so much .

about IT turns out to be the best, turns out to be the britz, you know and many others, right? But there is no boy's fighting them because labor has just sent, you know I think thirty people over .

the campaign n that as long as you're .

not donating money is if you're out on the you're out on the campaign trail volunteering ing that it's legal. But you know certainly unwise in my opinion because you if president trump wins the selection, which she's looking very likely to do right now, you know it's it's an improper way to conduct foreign relations rate. You don't go to another country in campaign for .

a particular candidate for office and shut down their most basic rights.

I mean, the first amendment is everybody always says it's first for a reason. The constitution, me know, was written a decade later, but largely in response to our secession from great britten to come in to metal with that constitution um in our own country and of course this follow suit um with some of the chAllenges that we're seeing free speech face in the united kingdom where people are being thrown in prison for ten months for two years and so for for uh for social media posts for talking.

You have english, you are educated heavily in english.

I love england and and by the way that does not reflect england or or great britain is A A very small um group of leaders there, outline themselves with a very small group of leaders here in the same way that censorship and undermining the constitution does not reflect the american people and yet our leaders persist in doing that so are you are you .

surprised as you look across and see what's happening there?

I am I mean I I have a law degree um from oxford on you know in english law. And IT was always clear that you know it's not a written constitution, it's much more based in president but that there is a deep and abiding respect going back to the magna ara for, uh, civil liberties and the idea that a flood of immigration, which you know we must take a measure of accountability for because largely our going into iraq was was what began that entire shift in the demographics of europe, would have such an impact.

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You to people are going into iraq is what set off the demographic shift in europe? Yeah I that's of course true beyond debate, but I think it's under appreciated.

Oh yeah, we broke the world for I use as if we broke the world for twenty years but here we are and I think you know the the ramifications were continuing to deal with and they you know that they compound because as a result of of that um you know we have rax said we have many of the pressures that have LED um to the ukraine war and as a result of that we're facing think really unprecedented dangers in this country that are also greatly under appreciated and we will respond to if they happen and I think that escalator cycle is what um that keeps us trapped in in the bad decision making and you know I remember at the time in iraq was but know six months will be out theyll greet us as heroes and the same thing was said in ukraine and we find ourselves in the as quag mires without realizing that yes there's a body account, by the way, that is generally largely lied about and hidden, but then there's this vastly higher body count of those whose lives have been Operated and who have either died early as a result of, you know, migration or dust of despair.

This is the same with lockdowns and those numbers are incredibly hard to ever even pg down and when you look at the millions and millions displaced, I mean Brown university hugs the the global warning terrorism as um having killed or LED to the deaths of eight hundred thousand civilians and that IT goes so far beyond what the U S. Will will speak to. And then those that we're forced to my grade are in the many millions. And when you take homogeneous, you know, europe is of is volgin ized. But each of each element there is accustomed to being very homogenous .

and the indigenous populations.

right? And when you know when I was in when I was a George hunt um at I um my masters at the school for ign service and the um the focus of my thesis was trying to get very quantitative about predicting terrorism because at the time there was a very wishy subject was post nine eleven and IT IT was mostly qualities of the way people were describing in and one of the one of the closest corner ies that I could find to being a predictor was the ratio between hook baris and madras but not just the ratio the rate at which had changed and that is, I think, deeply underappreciated. It's not that they don't necessarily plan to at some point have their demographics look different, right? But when it's forced so quickly.

nobody can absorb th Epace o f c hange. Matter matter, we can't a tabligh IT people are not designed for this pace of change at all.

IT really, really matters, whatever you know. That's IT that matters. Person, uh, hooker barbare, um in the middle astern context.

But when you look at what where experiencing in the U S, where you have kids who've just come back from a pandemic, then being sent home again to do zoom school so that there classrooms can be used to, how is migrants or, uh, you know, hotels all being shot for the same purpose? Well, veterans sleep under bridges on the streets. It's IT the scale of IT and the the the what makes IT impossible for any society to absorb.

And that doesn't make IT know, that does make IT racist, that doesn't make IT wrong. Um is human nature to need time, the nature of economies and societies to need time to be able to expand and adapt. And I think a hour going into iraq, i've got to to send a little bit, though, in the early days that was actually pretty well managed before before IT sprawled. But two thousand and three, I think, was really the beginning of this era where we were shifting, were talking about the rules based order and breaking every single rule in that rules based the order, and then having utter disregard for the social chaos was resulting in exactly.

exactly and and people's need, which is inherent for order and predictability and continuity and their lives and their communities will talk about communities nobody actually cares about communities will blow them up. Ah in Harry so can I ask you about have so many threads but um just to get back to what drew you into this kind of amazing life that you've lived which was nine eleven I don't understand, sincerely don't know, maybe you do why twenty three years later when you know every regime in place in two thousand one is not different, including sauty government um why we would have so many classified documents from that time what what's the excuse for that? I don't get that at all.

I mean, why always still have classified documents from the sixties?

I completely agree. But because nine, nine, eleven was, you know was the world changing event of our lifetime. I think it's fair to say in retrospect, but I don't understand the justification for that.

And I don't know why nobody domains like want to classify like why shouldn't it's our country? All those people died. We should no right.

And I and I I agree entirely and I agree. I I mean, at the same applies for the sixties. I think ultimately, you know, when most americans go to work for a third of their working week, they're working for the government.

They are working. They're taking that money, having spent the day away from their families, sacrificing whatever they would prefer to be doing. And they don't get keep any of that.

They turned all over to the government. The government works for the people at directly. They are directly paid by the people. And if your boss ask what you've been doing and you know you say sorry, I can tell you what class fied IT doesn't cut IT, you know.

And should you know, are there are there moments where you know the actual identity of a source is preventing nuclear war with the russians is at stake? Sure, but they're actually quite few and far between. And you know, I think there is a bureaucratic inertia here.

Some of IT is, some of IT is C V A. And some of IT is know probably more inferior ous than not. But there is also a lot of bureaucratic. And our shut is one of the reasons i'm excited about the prospect of elan getting in there but to do some surgery on on some of that bureaucracy.

But you know, CIA one of one when you start, you have this one week, you know fill out your tax forms, get the same as you would with any other job like nothing sexy about IT at all. There is just here's the insurance program and IT and the person who is going to work in, you know, the coffee shop is is sitting next to someone knows about to go down to the farm. It's just everybody goes through IT and the email client, the user looks a lot like gmail, I mean is provided by google and IT has all the Normal fields and then an additional field that's for um for classification and it's A A drop down menu and IT when IT first drops down.

Its all checked xe with their own you know some subsets and its hundreds of different classifications, all different numbers and codes and you can hover over them and they say when to use them. Um but but there are a lot and we were told in that first day, you know in that first of course, you know just to make IT easy on yourself, pick H C S four or four chat box IT hit save as favorites. It'll come up every time and then you don't have to worry about IT well that you know human compartment and sensitive information it's usually reserved for you know the actual identity address or identifying details of a source that whose life could be in danger for what they're doing.

And yet here is being used for you. I'll meet you at four thirty at duncan donuts. And everything in between good and bad, nefarious and not. And the problem with that is that is completely example from any declassification threshold ever.

And as a result of this kind of administrative tweak, which is either just to save people time or maybe do you know reduce the number of things that will ever eventually be published. Now you have class after class after class of C I officers that, you know just chronically make sure that every single male they ever right will never see the light of day. And I think that is being done across government.

So literally the default is secure. Cy, from the public.

yeah, the default is, you will never know. You never know how much money was spent, what I was spent on, whether I was legal, you know, whether you spent that tuesday away from your family working to pay taxes and those taxes to kill someone, or went to save someone. Ee's life is no no accountability and there's .

no way to .

know and there's no way to know and there could be right. I I have a lot of respect for um for the role of intelligencer agencies in saving lives and in preventing conflict and attacks.

I think they are actually far more valuable in that than many people realize because they have so solid their name by getting into all kinds of other business that that they shouldn't be doing um but there is a very valuable role for them and in that there are some things that do you know need to remain secret. But twenty years later, forty years later, six years later, you know that then IT becomes about preserving trust in our institutions. 对。

这 真 牛。

You code for if you knew what we did, then you would let us down. Now assume that's .

the motive behind continuing to classify documents from one hundred and sixty three in .

the Kennedy, it's sure not sources and methods, right?

I mean.

if IT is, then we've got, I mean, from time to time they will say this is about protecting allies. Of course, I think we would all wanted know if if there were allies or any other nation states involved in what happened in the sixties or what happened in nine eleven. So protecting anyone above the american people who you work for IT, doesn't really make a lot of sense.

actually say, is to protect them.

Well, not about a specific Operation, but as a reason for long term classmate, one push, that's pretty every just .

that they would admit that, I mean.

to interest of a foreign .

country are more important, interested in american people.

I think there, I think there a kind of argument would be, if I were to steal man IT, eventually the american people will be protected by something that we need from that some kind of, you know, security collaboration or whatever we might need down the road. And therefore, you know, we must keep that relationship strong um and again, if IT is the identity of somebody is working with you whose families is going to be in danger, that is absolutely true and maybe that's still true forty years later. You know it's possible that that is in certain circumstances, but.

About sixty one years later.

I mean, less and less likely.

What do you think that's about .

sines of the sex? yes. Oh, I could talk you about that all day.

I bet you've intersected with .

the on various levels. And yeah and and I feel something of a responsibility to to get to the bottom of that at at least in my lifetime for my children you know mean my my daughter bob cat is bobbi the fourth um so her great grandfather was arf k and and I don't I want to be able with a look at her and and for her to know whether or not her own government was involved in these assassinations and if so, what's been done about IT to make sure that that never ever happens again.

There's never a cool like that in this country again. And I think when you look at the collaboration that was going on in those days between the intelligence community and organized crime and the mob, there were very blurry boundaries. And I worry that today the cartels have kind of taken the mob's role in .

the the court, meaning the late american drug. Carter, do you you think that the U. S. Government is working with the cartels?

I I mean working with this is abroad, right? I mean that the intelligence communities job is to protect the american people and sometimes they interpret that as requiring a collaboration with criminal elements with terrorite ization um astanding bly as part of cover to you know, to complete an Operation that will save american lives or provide information that would be helpful to american leaders. Clearly, in the sixties that ended up being.

Manipulated into a broader collaboration that allowed U S. Government um elements to undertake activities that they could not directly undertake by law. And you know I think we've ve seen that even with liaison partnerships, you know it's clear that five eyes has been used, lee is on intelligence, lies on partners, have been used to survey leaders in our own government when our intelligence agencies could not do IT directly, because there's no prohibition on sharing intelligence.

right? You get a foregone intel service to do the work for you, and then you get the information right.

And similarly, you get an ng or a contractor to sensor the american people, or you get a criminal organization to undertake a criminal act that, you know you you might might not be so savary for your own officers to do and that, you know, I never worked in the america. So it's not um it's not something that I have directly witness, but I certainly have direct you knowledge of that happening of the U. S.

Government collaborating or having some relationship that's not purely tagish with the mexican and or other drug cartels.

sure. And I and and I think you know, again, the steel man would be this is for the benefit of the american .

people for good, for sure.

And there is there an argument for having penetration tions in the top of the cartels in the same way that you do at the top of you know the iranian, russian or any other adversarial government? sure. These I mean many of them are as powerful and threatening as as as a nation state. Um the problem though .

is money and there is so much money spinning off of these enterprises is the card tells that mean you could just see corruption happening very easily and I I know one person who was involved in now who who I trust I can't prove IT but who work for C I A is a contractor moving over as so many due from military um and you know he's told me a great length about the money uh that C I was getting from from drug cartel's in ln america, south amErica in this case I can prove that but I I was shocked to hear that you don't seem shocked to hear that.

Do I look at a run contract? You I mean, look at our amErica like these are it's not this is not a new pattern and for an intelligence and when you look at black budgets, you know, I mean, congress was stunned that there were Operations happening in nigeria. Obviously, they control the first string. So who's funding that right? And so that pattern has gone back a long way where where the narcotics train has has found that off book activities are that you know that the obviously what happened with the contrast and um has has happened before essence, given how many americans .

are dying or whose lives are being destroyed, families react, entire parts of the country just devastated by drugs. Um it's a little much I mean, that's like kind of at this point like native collaboration level moral, I would say .

no IT is it's pouring over the border and along whether that you know humans and children, and I think we really are seeing the devastation that that raps as you say. I mean that just the sheer scale in the sum of the revenue involved makes IT A A real chAllenge. So are again pretty .

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So what about congressional oversight? I mean, I you wonder about the committee chairman in the house, couple of republicans you I know, who seemed to me as an outsider, sort of outsider, completely controlled by the intelligencies. Is that your perception?

I may look at chuck humors comment, yeah, they have six ways to sunday to get back a year. You remember when .

he saw that general matter?

And you know, SHE didn't like to surprise if they get a known um is known quantity visibly goes back to whoever that was very well known within until people say, oh yeah, you know that guy is that who were file on him mining this that policymaker something is known that means that so .

that's real oh yeah yeah.

And I look at the speaker.

the house, whose views on everything kind of changed instantly on on the foreign icy questions. And I think, what are the treat? I mean, there's never been a more obedient speaker to the to the will and wims of the intel community and my Johnson and what what is that?

Well.

I know the answer.

but you look at, you know the legislation that has come up through the house on multiple things, you know on election integrity, on um E M P prepared ness, both are to completely different things. Both of them actually the shield in both cases, but several other iterations that passed the house with real bipartisan support and then just got completely gummed up in the senate.

And these are things that seem so unassailable and and supported across the board by you know uh regular american voters in the base across both parties. Um that you have to you have to ask what what who are files are involved and if not a hover file then you know a second house forever. Um but I think .

between so corrupt, it's hard even .

to believe that he is, but it's harder to believe that we're not going to do anything to rooted out you know and I I think you have to name a problem and really recognize IT before you can fix IT in IT is something that I admire about what um you know matt tab shelburne's with the twitter files was for elan to go in and say you before I even touched anything on day one please document for posterity um all of the abuses that have been happening here so that a um we can fix them and be the american people know this was happening and can prevent that from happening again and know if that hadn't happened we wouldn't know what this had been up to which also oversees election integrity, by the way, and how important that IT oversees .

election integrity.

Those are it's too it's to outside of bridges and ports and regular infrastructure. Those are it's two big focuses or censorship of social media and election integrity.

Of course.

you can have from actually .

integrity with censorship because censorship is itself and interference in the democratic cross, certainly.

I mean, when you look at the honey and laptop story and you know it's been so successfully kind of sideline that it's hard to even bring up on us, we will kind of roll their eyes, not the one hundred and laptop I can but what I find really astounding about that is that, you know, I was tony blinking as a campaign official for, uh for now, president biden, who rang up the C I, A and said, you know, we have a debate next week and we need to be able to robot this.

And can you write this letter? And in IT, I mean, it's just such clear politicization of our security services, which is foundational ally against everything that I was told when I am, when I started there, I was told that if you had a partisan in in the felt of your cubicle wall, you can be fired. And here we have, you know, that's for the rank and file, but the seventh floor are, you know, writing false intelligence estimates to get a presidential candidate out of hot water for his son's documentation of business deals that Frankly look pretty corrupt and that the voter should get to make up their own mind about, and maybe years, somebody who would look at the correspondent in that laptop and not be bothered by IT, but you should get to make that decision before you cast your vote.

And having a government agency where, you know, the the CIA can come in and say, this is russian disinformation when IT flat out was not, was completely authentic. And then sisa can actually get to work for the coming four years while that person is president. Memory holding that because every single post about IT is then flagged as misinformation um is a truly of a violation of election integrity, if ever there was one. I mean, all of the study is around that a the polling around and say that I would have changed a sufficient enough for Steven impact on the election and if having your security services step in to lie about a foreign adversary involvement in the election in order to conceal from voters, correspondents of your own corrupt dealings with other foreign adversary, and have you changed the outcome of the election is not in reference, it's hard to know what .

is so nicely put. Were you shocked by that when you saw IT?

I was shocked by IT when when I realized that that IT was intentionally manufactured in that way. I mean, I think when I first heard IT, you know, he seemed unlikely to me, but I hadn't really fully caught on at that point. How manufactured the entire, you know, laptop story was like IT IT seemed like two or di us an intrusion into domestic political life.

I felt they wouldn't. They wouldn't have gone that far, that publicly to just out not lie about IT. And, you know, and they did. And not only did they, but then the person who who orchestrated IT is now our sector of state going and preaching democracy all around the world.

It's pretty dark IT must be wildering for you who once part of the machine, I mean to.

yeah I mean, I can walk around that building in my, you know, with my eyes closed and say, you know, that door goes to the office and a great and nowhere in any of those offices was the like, overthrow governments and metal with domestic politics office, right? So, you know, I I was never exposed to IT, and I could be because in the early days, I definitely throw up the flag on a few things and said, hey, this, you know, they're using a lot of horrific in the early days after nine eleven, where kind of in english, that would be like, mr.

Doctor, you know. But after nine eleven, everybody was sending an arab c language threat reporting, or they were getting arabic language threat reporting from their sources, and they were not eric speakers. And so there are these huge files for people like hodja umi, just like someone who's complete at the huge and comes from yemen, which just, you know, many, many people to put in military. And and so picking one person up and, you know, rendering them to another country because they fit the description when it's not a name and it's not an identifier was, you know, a human rights nightmare.

Did that happen?

Different name. But I remember raising my hand on that because I was taking like arabic one to one at um in my last year of grad goal at Georgetown and I had a wonderful egyptian professor and he had just done a class on on the riffs at the beginning to kind of like warm people up and teach them pronunciation and I was literally that far and was so so brando and if that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have recognized that.

But and IT ended up you actually being right. I think I was a wrong person. And by the time that was recognized that you know force fat M M through his nose and you know just a whole human rights. So yeah so ho so horribly as did not be the force .

fed through. Well.

I am sharing what was in public. Just just to be clear, i'm sharing what was in the public account. So I, you know, I don't want to get go beyond that, but IT was the first time that I said, you know, this is, who do I talk to about shoulda, you know, this should be happening.

And I think from that moment on my senses that I was kind of put in the pile of, like, this is a person who will make, she's not gonna just go along right. Like, so he will make trouble. I think I I got filtered out of the golf en koos and foreign country recruit program.

Think god, but I never witness study of that there. IT was actually really, once I left that, in some ways, I felt my education on the intelligence world began. And I knew a lot of a really great people there, intellectually curious, smart, good hearted, many field logans.

Many poets like IT, really like interesting, unique group of people who argue a lot about where we should be in what we should be doing, and IT the morality of things. I didn't find IT to be an evil place at all, but I also aware that I never came across any of the kinds of Operations that you know now are being uncovered. And so I think I was working, you know, the t keeping nuclear precursors out of the hands of terrorist suspects is like A, A, A, A fairly easy moral choice, right?

And so I, I, I never was exposed any of that and I was deeply distressing after leaving to to watch um all of the subsequent entry classifications of what was being done. I A grave and elsewhere um and you know cats S I in thailand and I hadn't hadn't been aware of any of that. And then to see a weaponized domestically was the because, of course, that's the end of that story. When you really think about IT, you know there's no in the end, the way that we treat other people as we treat ourselves, the way that we treat people outside ends up in our home you know that's just the natural way of things and I think it's no surprise when we ve subjecting the world into kind of of us forces them thinking and control being are kind of bentonville in control being are love language globally as a nation um that you know our our leaders end up doing the same thing at home and feeling like it's noble.

So again, nicely put, you um made reference moment ago two changes a under in the first years of by administration, first months to our mp preparedness. Can you explain what an p is and what changed?

Yeah I mean this is increasingly relevant now in its it's a great credit to president trust that he prepared us for IT and then unfortunately the present by and that he revoked at so me sort of explained a little about what IT is.

Do you remember? Over the last couple of weeks there have been there have been solar storms and we've gotten to see the northern lights much you know further south, which is beautiful um and maybe people were warned there might be slight disruption to electronics, but for the most part it's been it's been beautiful and unevenly um those solar storms can be far more powerful than that naturally so before even getting into human weapon zing of that um there have been lots of examples but the caring to none is probably the best known right fifty and was so I me I said you know telegraph Operators on fire set forest fires you damage the um the transatlantic ic cable miles beneath ocean and not as as that were IT happened uh again now given the interconnected electrical grid that that exist on that you we've be looking at at darkness around most of the globe possibly four years up to seven years what they they're said and these are that these electronic magnetic objections happen from the sun every hundred. Two hundred fifty years of that of that magnetite of course I was you know in two hundred and fifty.

So we're coming up due for one their current assets about twelve percent chance per decade. So a non zero chance fairly likely that in our lifetime or our kids lifetime, we will experience in another one of these caring ten of us. In fact, there was one, two thousand and twelve. They came extremely close to us. So would have been absolutely atostor, phil, but I didn't .

have there would mean no electricity for years.

right? And that, you know that sounds inconvenient. And you know maybe people can see how that would be know IT would cause some loss of life. But I think there's part of us when we hear that, that thinks like I could use a break from twitter, you know like might be kind of nice. The thing is that what what people don't realize is that the world is no longer what I was in the sixteen century.

That a that almost everything at this point um involves with the coskata systems, which are these small computers that use sensors to move valves or whether it's how many, how much natural gas can move through a pipeline, when to turn on the coolers and nuclear power plan to make sure that there's not a meltdown, when to allow a water to go over the hover down to prevent flooding. Um you know air traffic control, traffic lights and so on um all Operated by scared systems now and those are are also acceptable to to this exact same um kind of of attack uh or in the early day, you know what we were just about was in in the case of a solar flare. But humans being what they are, they've learned to web ize us right and we know this because we have done IT uh starfish prime was the first test and sixty two where the us.

Realized that this could be used as a weapon um and did the test above the pacific and and knocked out and capabilities and why um and further beyond and so there is that recognition. We now know that the the soviet figured that out even earlier. They told us during the kind of day on to the nineties um that they had already done seven years at that point of our cousin and wiped the entire power grade of cause.

Actually you created a lot of suffering in the process but they saw IT as having huge potential as a weapon um because of that and began developing out, you know where they call the super mp, which is um very specifically um tuned not for yield but for electro magnetic pulse and these these are detonated thirty kilometres are so above the country so you're not actually destroying anybody with the with the explosion IT is with the um using the M P S to kill the grid is now by many of our adversary mentioned in our military manuals, there's no contact wars. So this is you win world war three without ever having to have contact with the adversary. And when you look at the delivery mechanisms that are available here and the way that were seeing emp discussed in china and iran and russia, north korea, there are a wide variety of them. I mean north korea in two thousand and thirteen when the exact optimal orbit with um its case and three satellite over new york and washington dc, that would be the optimal delivery for this kind of a weapon. And on the very same day in April, two thousand and thirteen military special forces, essentially that have never been identified, to break into A A substation, P G, N sub station near santos in california.

And north korean.

well thought to be north korean, never. I actually identified or apprehended exactly the same day on the west coast that they did the satellite run on the east coast.

what they do, the P, G, substation s, electric the way. Yes, they were .

access to be extremely professional by the the seal trainers who came in later to look at the site they knew about um an underground comes tunnel that they went in and cut communications and you sniper fire to damage but not take off line seventeen transformers in the .

nine states.

the states.

the north korean team of atures or sva ur sent by .

certainly professional special forces of some variety, thought to be north korean just outside san, who's a in coyote, california.

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I was no, I was an adult in two thousand and thirteen. Obama was president. I was reading the news. I don't .

remember. No IT was a very, very downplayed as vandalism. And you know two months later, july, we had a few months later um in july, they found um to esa to nuclear capable missile and the the bay of a of a tanker in the gulf of mexico and this was all really as the as the north korean tensions were mounting.

You know which president term gets far too little credit, in my opinion for that um resolution or daytime and now you know under biden Harris, we have we have north korean troops being pulled by putin into the warm ukraine so that escalation is is back and play again um but those are three distinct ways to attack our electrical grid that were all mounted within you know a handful of months and as a result, two thousand and fourteen norad announced that they were fully moving and investing hundreds of millions of dollars into further rad heartening I mountain. So they've taken them very seriously for their own force protection, which is good. But now for the rest of us.

and can you just give us the Cliff notes and what what that means? Harding shine and mount. okay.

So it's actually various. If you put your phone in the microwave, right? IT is IT is safe from this kind of a lecture magnic radiation.

And so the question is, when you look at something as complexes as our entire national grid, what are the notes that are most a vulnerable to this kind of attack? And um really there are two categories that highest consequence, one or the skate systems that would allow for the resulting forest fires and nuclear meltdowns and floods and plane crashes and a hospital failures and traffic crashes and so forth if they fail and they are as easy to protect IT as you know, putting them in a metal shed instead of a wooden shed, or taking the wooden shades that exist and covering them with a metal mash to to the point that you know, you could put that out for people in each community with specs, and i'm sure that they would get together on a sunday. And do IT you know that regulation and our country doesn't allow us to do that.

Um that so the skate systems uh protecting those and then uh h the extra high voltage transformers are a huge issue and sticking point for our grade. They only make about two hundred of them a year, and they're incredibly expensive, hundreds of tons, you know, to move. And the coils are done mostly by hand.

Amazingly, me and their customer made, and they were invented here in the U. S. Tesla invented them here. But we don't make them anymore. And most of the ones for export are made in germany or south korea and there they are designed custom for each spot. So it's very hard to have extras for each one on hand.

And um they need to be in fair day cages which is you know sounds fancy but is basically just war mesh cage yeah why are mesh cage? And you the benefit of this despite you know in addition to protecting against this kind of attack, is that there a lot of other grid vulnerabilities that are may maybe lower damage when they happen but hire a likelihood an imp attacker or um a solar flair are low probability, high catastrophe events um but whether related damage is is the opposite or sometimes catastrophe in its impact, as we've seen recently rated north like a um and elsewhere and a lot of the same guards around, especially around protecting from cascine skate failures where you know the the um charge can be um the surgeons can be prevented is really important to uh the M P safety, but also would help prevent in those kinds of storm environments. And then you look at sabotage and vandalism, which is another really big issue that they have to protect against an affair cage, depending on its construction, can also you know prevent people from seeing where IT is that there that they're are letting off smaller ms fire that they're targeting um which we see.

I mean, you know when I drove in here, when you first arrive in your town, on the left there is a little substation and I has a chain like fence around IT, you know, no cameras, and that's the same all over the country. And everyone just sees those. You know how they see the little coils and don't really think much of IT, but i've i've .

been here fifty years and never noticed that was there.

It's right. I mean, and that's true or I just you know we're so accustom to to filtering these things, but the entire basis of our life in our community and our country and our national security and our our health care, our financial system all realize on them. And it's not just you know detonating a nuclear weapon above the united states.

Obviously, there's a deterrent effect. Uh, there would be a response because shine mountain and other parts are completely red harden. So even if the entire country were out, you know, the united states would be able to respond.

And has has a self service season so on. But you can achieve pretty much the same impact with commercially available E M P suitcases that you can buy for industrial reasons with no, you know no special license or anything like that. You know, if you pick the right nine substations to put that suitcase next to, you have achieved with the exact same thing. And as you can see, you know, with the the sanchez attack, those people were never actually seen on camera, they were never made, you can see them as figures, but they were never identified.

So there's vandalism, their natural weather events um including the solar flares, storms that you are mention in the M P. Uh so the threats to the grid and two are the lives of three and five hundred million americans are completely real and in some sense imminent like we know this is gonna en at some point. So what the federal response hardening the grid changed when biden that elected yeah and .

this is what is really hard to accept that is very similarly actually what happened with the border wall, which is here you have two policies, the em p executive order that president trump was the first president to ever uh direct all parts of government to work together to be sure that the american people were protected from intentionally M P attack after decades of knowing. But our primary adversaries, ies, were all considering IT training for IT had weapons programs designed to do this, by the way. I mean, before we get to bite and you know the primary delivery mechanism in all of those tests was a high altitude balloon.

You know, when we then have china, a primary adversary who we know have talked in their training, uh, sessions and their training manuals about using high altitude balloons to deliver this kind of a mp device, and I ve ve done test words the same exact as the high alto to baLance that were recovered and then you have russia, what i'm sure you remember last year washington worked itself into quite um I justified I M in my opinion stayed about you know the quote quote, space nuke right putting a nuclear weapon into orbit um on a satellite and at the time the media made IT out like this was maybe a danger and even if I was a danger is only a dangerous to other satellite right and would IT would get in the way of your cars GPS and you know maybe I would be problematic for the military so we should pay attention to IT but they definitely downplayed its impact on anyone on the ground right? And yet we know from past russian trials and the um the S A three satellite that that the north american sent over, that this kind of delivery is the exact same uh set up as an antisatellite weapon. You put a nuclear a weapon on a satellite de headed up from the south where we have virtually no detection set up and you don't even get the twenty two minutes that you would get with a solar flair.

IT just comes completely out of the blue and there's no preparation whatsoever. And in general, in the you know in the military theory of these of these adversity, it's a multipronged attack, right? That's the initial you take out you know send everybody in decay or so you take out their ability to community with one another and then it's followed by whatever comes next.

Um and for us to know if to have seen that in you know war games in at least two of our largest adversaries, both on and rush included in their training simulations it's in three of their manuals china, russia and iran. Russia we know is putting a nuclear weapon in in orbit. China sending the space balloons of are in the highschool balloons.

I've already come across our own territory, north korea, three three way attack simulation that all three were successful. Clearly, this is on the minds of adversity and is in imminent dangerous, is certainly the the vulnerability, you know, the area in which we are most vulnerable form maximum casualties and impact. And yet.

President trumps was the first president to to say, across different parts of government who sometimes have a hard time talking to one another. I want you to work together to make sure the american people are protected from this. And by the way, it's not even not expensive in the big scheme of you know government spending. They to do IT really well that the concession ate was two billion dollars, which you know we've had sent another hundred billion to um ukraine so then biden takes office and Frankly, my mind just inconceivably revokes that. And in the same way that he says with the wall, you know both of those, to my mind, are initiatives that are already underway that are designed to protect the american people's security and homeland and he reversed for you know, with no with no replacement plan in place.

But you the border, while you could. And I think that's a more complex topic than we appreciate. Like what is the point of what they just did, I don't know, but at least there was a perceived political constituency in favor of mass immigration.

Gay, they thought that would make IT a one party state. That's whether for IT got IT. What could possibly be the motive for not defending yourself in a sensible way from the mp attack? Like I don't get that at all.

Support from the electrical industry?

Oh, really yeah. There is a huge .

amount of push back, so IT gets a little bit in the weeds and boring. But there these two things, the earth in the fork, yeah yes. And they are supposed regular one another, basically one IT of focus post regulator. And unsurprisingly, in that kind of a cozy relationship that doesn't work and they do have some self imposed mp standards, but they are for a reasonably light solar storm and would not come anywhere close to being able to would stand any kind of nuclear follow. Um and we really push back on the costs that would be involved and the difficulty IT could be passed on to consumers at twenty cents per consumer per year, which I think most consumers, when they relate, understand that this this would you know keep their power on not just in those extreme circumstances, but also helping storms and other and .

keep millions from starving, right?

Billions potentially. I mean, these are global. I mean, in in, in our country, not but h, but these certainly will be global issues and there will be global competition for the very slow ability transformers that would fix them, right? And so it's really important to recognize that everybody else will be going through the same thing at the same time.

It's not like you can find a way to walk outside of that area so that you can get order or something and bring you back in, right in terms of rebuilding your grid. So potentially catastrophic, non zero chance of that happening twelve percent per decades. And I should say that the E M P.

Committee that congress put in place and unfortunately was disbanded under president obama. But prior prior to that um included really the intelligence community is best analysts based on all of the testing that they've seen hostile countries to. Their estimate was eight to nine out of every ten americans could lose their life by the end of the first year, which is a staggering and almost impossible to believe estimate. Until he realised that you within obviously at the outset, you have half a million people in the air at any given time on a thousand flights, right? So that's lost right away and then .

everyone plane does.

right? So that's hf a million people at any moment, any given moment. And then you have um you know this is traffic when everything that that happens in in that immediate chaos um but very quickly after that, the scatter systems begin to fail and you have fire, you have flood within seventy two hours you have meltdown at all nuclear facilities and then refrigeration has gone out at supermarkets and at the regional of food warehouses.

So the foods supply ends. There's no you there's no access to e tms or money or financial structure of any any type, no access to your prescription medications, you know no access to law enforcement and no clean water and no food. So unless you know you you have your burkey that you can put lake water and and you know a year is worth and food a and a way to protect yourself and you know you which the vast majority americans don't have um you are an incredibly vulnerable position that there is absolutely no reason to risk putting our own.

And if you that just for people who are outside the cities, but if you're in the middle of tightly packed matter area, you're just done and the end is the I mean, I can't even imagine people's be having, you know, covered chaos and bag dad and hurricane Katrina. You know anyone has ever seen the, you know, disappearance of authority knows that like within hours, people start going crazy and hurting each other.

And do you have your kids in your apartment and how do you get them out and how do you get them to safety and where do you take them? And you know, the prospect of even rolling any kind of dice to put our our own people in that situation.

Well then globally, taking the money that we could spend doing that, and instead send IT to to ARM ukraine, when sending ballistic missiles into russia using american satellite, you puts us in a direct hot war with russia for the first time ever. You know that that actually puts us a higher risk of this kind of attack then never in our history, and at a moment we are. Instead of spending our money to protect ourselves from that attack, we're actually spending our money to provoke that attack.

We did a live tour last month. One of the funnest things we've ever done, coastal cos different cities speaking well next week are grand. Finally, halloween, october thirty first, twenty four in lanzone, are special. Night days before the president election, Donald trump, all proceeds donated to hurricane relief, were cradd to do IT hope to see you there.

So I don't know that one in a million americans has ever heard any really anything you just said, or certainly not heard IT fleshed out in the way that you just did. And yet when you hear IT IT makes sense is clearly true. So that raises the question about our information. You know the integration for information sources and why aren't uh, we hearing this from the press, from the media? I don't understand that.

Well, you know, I think there's a party line right now in the media, if you haven't noticed. And this, I think, does not support the security states thesis about about how safe the current administration has made us in the world. right? And you know when you look at um when you look at the economy versus stability that you know four years ago and now IT is just absolutely clear that we should be talking about the fact that the world has been set on fire over the last four years and yet it's really not front and center in our news at all with you know with the exception of of of the middle east, which you know gets I think pretty sly entered coverage.

So think .

you know, having come through two years of the arf k campaign, I will tell you that is I think it's truly amazing to me how to what degree a media blackout really can be coordinated and and be successful.

What you tell us, what your experience I mean.

IT was clear to me pretty early on that you know you if you are someone who had heard from bobbi, then you were someone who was at least considering voting for him. And and many of those people know were very clear that he was should be the next personal, the united states. So you you're either somebody would hurt from Bobby or you were somebody who had heard about Bobby right from your cable news source or from your newspaper.

And so and you begin to realize when you're on the inside of you know with the receiving end of all of that, is that every place you know anything that you know about this election, you know about IT because you have read, heard or seen IT on a platform that has a commercial interest in the outcome of the election, right? When you look at google, hundreds of millions dollars in in um pharmacy al ad revenue, billions of dollars in pharmaceutical revenue. That Bobby said in his very first speech when he announced for president that he would bring us in line with the restless world by banning phmc utica advertising on TV.

You know what business do you know that is gona give fair coverage to somebody that could cost them billions of dollars a year in their business model, you know not in their producer interest. And it's the same. You know we see IT with certainly all the cable news channels who are also reliant on pharmacology, vertigo and then um you know the reliance amid boy's determination to cut access military funding when so many of these media companies have board and tangled legs are common ownership with uh defense contractors or are themselves to me look at amazon web services and the washington post and you know g and nbc. And so for them, there's a long, long history of that.

And how much is boeing spend on political every year?

And but so that .

is kind of that I didn't understand this actually tell Bobby explained to me, having spent my entire re life in the media, in television, not realizing that the point of the pharmaceutical ads was not to sell the drugs to consumers, you can prescribe the drugs to themselves. Of course, IT never made sense to me and I didn't get the obvious poaches its protection .

money yeah that's exactly I never got.

I mean.

sometimes you even see the bowing out or know the north of s and it's impossible as a consumer, you there's it's you actually can't there's no way to buy their product. No, like completely naked bribery.

But I.

Never thought it's to .

keep its reporters .

from critics and .

intensity .

and they know IT and you know a free market is a free market, fine. But when when voters are so steped in a media environment and especially with algorithmic things where they're seeing their google news feed and every single time they see baby's name, he is like a psychopathic crazy dog. You joke, right? And that was their approach was either to absolutely not cover in whatsoever mean he would give these extraordinary speech at the peace speech that he did a new hampshire in at the outside of the campaign um and the um amErica strong speech about building a unity government based on lingen's team of rivals were two of the most incredible speeches of of the campaign and neither of them they were all attended by thirty forty reporters with cameras obviously waiting for him to say some terrible things so they could play that one clip and then none of them ran any of IT because know because they were such strong speeches and so we we were up against that throughout and .

you know how the amErica may obviously been around you work to BBC been around american media for your whole life. But did you appreciate how this works before you yeah started running this campaign?

Not nearly to the degree that you know the the degree of politicization was surprising to me. And I think I had not really come to understand that the kind of deep commercial drivers behind editorial lines and um you know I guess had a little bit of idealism still from the old like ARM like you. There must be some journalists to out there kind of thing and you've been very few and far.

But to I mean, really, i'm hard pressed even come up with an example. Glad to be sitting across from you, but I will say thank god for elan musk. Yes, I mean, I really believe that every american should include him and and his family and their players every day because, you know, he is holding our constitution together right now.

And, you know, even the internet archive is offline now is there's nothing left. There's no other way to know and sure. Are there things on there they turn out not to be true? absolutely.

Are there things on there that you're going to disagree with? They're find defensive? absolutely. And you know, such as the nature of free speech and its auditors and bold and beautiful and sometimes infuriating. But that's what we've built our entire country on. And when IT, I mean, I remember recently explaining this to my daughter and and he was and she's five.

And if he was asking why why I always travelling on working in the moment and and I was explaining about the importance of free speech and how I wanted her to have that when he was older, and he said, so are there countries where, if you criticize the leader, you know, they will put you in jail and I said, yes, there are. There are a lot of those countries. They they used to be all the countries, basically.

And when you, when you go back and you look at the at the audacity of what that idea was at the beginning and the fact that IT wasn't happening anywhere else and then hundreds you know of of other countries now have followed suit and that we're just gonna give that up for the short sited gain of one political party in one election cycle, or one blob for, you know, five to ten election cycles. Well, you know, their less for power continues and that as a result, because no government has ever going to see ed power given to an an emergency so even once that runs its course IT still means that my kids kids will not have the freedom of speech that you know that they that is their birth right um given to them by our country's founders and I just can't I can't abide that. I can let that happen and to see elan, who wasn't even born in this country, step up and defy the commercial interest rests. You know, I don't know his finances, but IT seems seem me that he has taken a serious financial hit.

Oh, serious.

I to protect.

He's not a money worshiper, right? Unlike so many billionaires, just to be blunt, their money worshipers.

That's where where the billionaire, right? He's not. no. And I I think he is genuinely by the desire to see human freedom in your and I don't know why more of us are not because there's nothing more important and it's ours to lose, you know. and.

It's bewildering to me when I hear people say, well, you know, our government can be trusted with those like they can make the judgment of what I should be able to say what I just the the idea that but what about the next leader? You know, every goal is that is a federal fifty one, the one that where medicine talks about, you know, if if men were Angels, we would not need government. Government were Angels that won't need to be regulated.

But we are making, you know, the chAllenges, making a government of of man over men. And and yet they took on that chAllenge and achieved IT so beautifully. And I remember, mr. Sir, and see, tell me my last two years of high school in D. C. When I came back to the united states telling telling us about smokey ver, sino y and I and just being incredibly moved by the courage that IT takes as a society to defend such a Warrent speech, yes, because you know that you know it's it's not a sliding is just you either habit you know I mean someone rush here says the minute somebody says I believe in free speech except you know stop them right there because they don't .

need to finish the sense but I get I just refer back to my first question um which is since i'm so familiar with you know all the schools you went to, the credentials you have, you know the world that you're from, I mean, you've gotta be in the one tenth of one percent of people. You know you've taken this position, you took such an unpopular position.

And I know you know you married in the family and all that, but still you became public genitories campaign manager and now Bobby is doors trump. And I just don't think you could hoist a bigger middle finger in the face of the world they're from. I mean, I just know that because I I know that world.

So like, did you even hesitate before doing that? What was your thinking? And i'm sure none of your classmates did anything like that. What did you do that?

You know, I think that if you gave them the choice, I mean, if they came down from mars and you put the exact occur, you know, what is happening right now in front of them without the names of the parties, where are the names of the participants said, you know, you have one four years stand where no new words are started where you know, bread costs half of water costs now gas a third. No exeter um rises in standard of living across the country, lower suicide rates, lower depression, lower homelessness, lower incarceration, lower immigration that is illegal and and results in in a children being lost around the country. And then you compare IT with four years of another government that is endorsed ed, by the way, by dic cHennai now and uh a host of neukum that involves two new wars, you know, printing each trillion dollars of additional debt, that is attacks on the poor and on future generations.

Uh, in order to pay for more war, more children going into poverty, more, you know that we have a real unemployment rate of twenty five percent in this country a quarter when you take into account people who want a full time job and don't have one, or people who have a full time job but don't make twenty five thousand hours here, which is not a living wage, if you have take that into account, we have twenty four point nine percent true on imlay's. Um so when I think that you asked about people in my world, I think if you put any of that to them and then on top of that said, and this this leader that has plunged people into poverty and unemployment and you know had to two additional words start on this watch is censoring speech on social media, web sizing the courts to take people of his own party and every single other party off of the ballot I mean, literally dean Philips, mary Williamson, rover Kennedy junior. Obviously president trump, no labels jill stein everybody.

There's nobody that, as far as I know, that didn't face some kind of a lawsuit to try to chAllenge their actual ballot access, the ability for an american to turn up and exercise their own sacred individual sovereignty of thought and choose whether or not to over them every single one of them was attacked in court to get their name off of the ballot like we believe in democracy. You can vote for anyone as long as it's me and I I believe that anyone who who I knew growing up um and hopefully any american that I didn't know growing up, when when they see IT with the in group out group coding stripped away with all, I mean would all choose the same outcome here. I think the chAllenges that um we are evolutionary design to to you know retain the approval of our group when you walking across the you know the early savana, your group shuns you, you know you're out of luck, right? It's a lot harder to survive.

And I there's. There's a study that darpa did around news, you know reading news where they um they expected the frontal lobe to light up because you are assessing the logic of what you are reading and actually lights up second after this area over the year, which is if you hold up a shirt and think about whether your friends would make fun of you if you wore IT. So you know you are using your analytical mind, but only after you've already decided whether you're using IT to pocket or you know to reinforce. And I think that honestly, my friends who don't support president term, I think that's why I think.

you know, I guess but everything he said is true and for the third time, nicely point. But I also have a little more discount. Give me a group of past because that's that's our leadership class raised and the sum extent to be brutally on this bread to rule.

And every society has that class and it's fine with me. I think it's inevitable part of the human ordering, but that class should be able to think critically and rationally that their job and they're not. And I just don't understand how this happened. A total breakdown in the ort of mental faculties of the people who run everything like, what the hell?

yeah. I mean, part of that, I think, is this tention a addictive hib note, quality of of media and social media that has really intentionally been designed that way. You know, calling means talks about how the tobacco company is bought, you know, the food companies, and send over their chemists and made them, you know, intentionally addictive.

And that is horrifying and true. I feel that the same has really been done to our information ecosystem. And part of IT is for me know for for corporate profit and part of IT is for political control. And as as that media environment has also become more global and these partnerships with you know other parties in other countries assist in censorship, it's I think it's difficult to um to think critically without a single input telling you that you're living in the truman show, right you know and I mean the agency, the use of these things called red teams, right where they were in the eighties.

They started putting people in analysts in kind of a bunk er for three three months or six months that looked for all the world like you were living in soviet, in the soviet, ian and all of the books you had available were all the things that you would be reading if you were military or leadership class there, and you're listening to live radio brokers in russian and just living the life of a soviet leader in the bunk. Er and every day you're writing what you would do, you know, today I would a pushed on the berlin wall a eeta and and that is actually one of the things that came out of IT was when was the time a suggestion of the timing for when regan should should push on on on bringing down the wall. But IT allowed people to really channel their adversary to such a deg that they reviewed with a lot of suspicion when they came out.

I was like, well, now you've gone native now like you you maybe you're the enemy now. And now after nine eleven they started ramming these things back up um around islamic extremism and reading get to 哦 哦哦哦 all academic writings of um you know some of the the more violent， shy hot leaders and so on and the that suspicion remained as the Better you performed in there in terms of really being able to get into somebody y's mind, the more suspicious people were of you and you left and you were generally put on some kind of like teaching a simmer somewhere. You cannot really do any harm.

And I I I tell that story because it's very interesting to me that it's like a casa knowledgeable that you are what you read, you are what you're emergent, right? And you can have been you this one thousand nine hundred eighties called war are so much so that you're working you know as an analyst in russia house at CIA presumably er like pretty died in the wall, you know blue team and then you do this three months. You do this six months and IT is so convincing this emerge in the thoughts and radio and books and you know beliefs of your adversary that you might just be lost forever when you come out right, like you might have just had a full conversion experience. I think that is what's happened. I mean, I think that media approach is now the experiment that's running all around us all the time.

Yes, agree with that. So such terrifying effect, I wish we had more time.

always more time, all in god's time. But this was it's so nice to stop and actually talk about some some of the real chAllenges that you know, I think sometimes in the final weeks of the campaign, everything becomes about you know, the daily polls or and whatever the the media opportunity of the day was in the end, this is what's at stake.

I mean, we're talking about decisions over the the very constitutional ideals that this country was built on, the physical safety of our communities, of our families. I mean, you are putting it's really one of the the only times that as a parent you are putting the lives of your children in the hands of someone who Frankly, is a stranger to you. And you know you you when you look at these emp scenarios and then you look at these censorships scenario OS, you know the the well being of constitution, of our children and of human freedom is at stake here. And and if I weren't, I wouldn't be fighting for IT so hard. But thank you for taking the time to really dig in to those issues rather than you know the latest photo up of the day.

You're welcome back getting time. Thank you and s knee.

Thanks, tucker. Thanks for lic k croson show.

If you enjoy IT, you can go to cook, cross that, come to see everything that we have made the complete library. 他是 croson dk。