Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
If you've been following any of the stories of passing years about the movement of hundreds of thousands, millions of people illegally into the united states, you may have come across the phrase darian gap and is never really explain what is is a physical place between panama and columbia and IT is a gap in the pan american highway, in the words, if you want to get from south amErica to north amErica overland, you have to go with the arian gap, but is very difficult.
And yet, last year, at least five hundred and twenty thousand migrants crossed IT to come here. How did that happen? What is that? What is going on in the derive gap is the key, in some ways, to the story, the immigration story.
Well, almost no one has taken the time to go the daring an gap and find out what's happening there. Leave IT to a world round biologist to do that, not a journalist, a biologist. That would be doctor bread windsor, who is the host on with his wife, heather of the darkness st.
podcast. And he was just there last week because he wanted to see IT for himself. We're honor to having join us now to tell us what he found. Thank you so much.
Very good to be back with you.
So can you that was my feeble attempt to add limit explanation that during gap. But can you can you more precisely tells what IT is?
Sure, you did a pretty good job. The pan american highway is a road that literally from proto bay, alaska to the southern p of south america, IT is unbroken. But for a sixty mile stretch between panama and columbia, IT is not a canyon. As many people imagine, the gap must be. It's an inpenetrable piece of jungle, and the road has never been completed there, not because it's technically impossible to do, but because the combination of the difficulty of putting a road through that jungle and the the danger of doing so has meant that northern south amErica have been separated in this way um for the entire history of that road.
So you often need people say it's a parallel journey to get across that sixty miles of the dining gap. Is is that a fair assessment?
Um it's beyond fair. Let's just say, uh I did my graduate work not far from daring. I did IT in in central panama and the jungle in the jian gap is some place that one um does not go without careful preparation.
IT is a quite dangerous IT involves a number of conditions that make IT parallel. For one thing, the cordier a, which is the mountain rain, which that is effect the continental night divide. The same mental divide that we see in colorado, for example, continues down through central america, and IT passes through darian.
So imagine a very uh, difficult jungle without proper trails through IT in which migrants have to come up that mountain range and they're almost all unprepared. They don't have the kinds of materials you would want with you. So they're soaking wet from rain, they're sleeping on the ground and so they get hyped athena.
Um it's extremely slippery. So people are constantly sliding downhills breaking limbs. They sleep in their shoes and get trench foot. It's a very treacherous journey and the difficulty of IT should not be underwater.
So how did I wonder why there's not a permanent team of york time supporters there trying to tell the rest of us what exactly happening? Half a million people move through there in one year. How did you wind up there?
Well, I I wound up there because Michael yan had been sending me materials, uh, thinking that I would be interested in what was taking place in panama. And of course, I was utter ly fascinated by what I was seeing. Now some of your viewers may not know Michael.
Michael is a former Green berry who has refashion himself. Well, the last time I was on your program, I talked about goliath yeah and if there's a goliath, there's a David. And I would argue that Michael yan is like David's eyes.
He's been traversing the world trying to understand a story that as yet has no name. And that story is partially in the arian of panama a and it's all sorts of other places, including uh, in various U. N.
installations. There is some story that is a difficult to piece together. And he's been he's been physically traveling to all of its various epithets and showing people .
so and that is a story of .
mass migration. Uh, mass migration, I now think, is a piece of IT. Now when I went to panama, I had a hard time explaining to myself why I was going .
because those are the best trips .
around serendipity of IT is is important. But IT was hard for me to justify in my head going to such a place when IT wasn't going to change. You know, the videos he had sent me were quite clear um so what was that I was going to learn by standing there that I couldn't also learn by looking at these things.
Well, i'm very glad I went because I did actually radically change my understanding of what I was looking at for reasons I Better understand. Now um one needs to see the um the physical relationship between the various sites that he showed us um in order to really piece together what the story is. So you went if I can summarize .
what I think you're saying because you're researcher and you wanted to know what's actually happening.
The thing that gets d emphasized when we talk about high quality science is the degree to which IT is informed by well to intuition. So I had a sense that I needed to see IT for reasons that my conscious mind wasn't certain of at the time. And I followed that. And I i'm very glad I did .
follow your instinct. Y, that is, that is the lesson of so many moments in like, so what did you find and what did you conclude?
Well um I concluded the number of things and and the whole thing was so um mentally disruptive that I am still in the process of unpacking what IT was in debating with myself about what that means. But i'll give you um some basics but I do have to ask something of your audience as part of this. That is just me reporting what I saw and what I learned from Michael and others on our trip.
And there's part of IT that's me speculating and i'm trying to do IT as responsibly as possible because a great deal hinges on what the actual explanation for what what we looked at is. So when i'm speculating, i'm going to be careful to tell you that that's what i'm doing. And people should, you know treat hypothesis as hypotheses and and nothing more.
But the first place that this trip really changed my understanding was I went down thinking that I was going to see a migration, and other people have called that an invasion. And there is something troubling to me about the tension between these two things, I mean, which is IT. And I came away with the sense that it's probably literally both.
And the way that manifests is you have a massive movement of people through the darian from columbia. Now I did not know when I went down. I now know that most of those people actually start in equal.
And the reason they started in ecuador, that ecuador r has a policy where they don't require a VISA. So people coming from all over the world can land in peto equator, find their way through columbia, move through the darian. And if they survive IT, which not all of them do, they can then get relatively directly all the way through central amErica into the U.
S. But that's not all that's going on. So we went to several of the, I guess you would call them transit camps. These are places where are people who have come by whatever route to darran, where they are recover if they're injured and they have to accumulate money because even if they settle out on their journey with enough money to buy a bus ticket to get them through central america, by the time you've comes through there, an almost all of them have been robbed and much worse actually people are being robbed, women are being raped um and lots of people are dying.
The migrants talk about stepping over bodies in darian and for somebody with in these kinds of jungles, it's not hard to see how, without a support network, the kinds of stuff that can happen and a jungle can become deadly very quickly. Things can spire a lot of control. So you have all of these migrants from all over the world.
Many of them are south american, but that is by no means the whole story. People are coming from the middle east to be met afghans. We met people from the crimean hatin.
There are people from yemen. Iran is shocking really. This looks superficially like the migration of central americans that you and I remember from when we were kids.
Yes, and there is some of that um but that's not the whole story. Now in um there's a camp we went to called canon memorial. It's on the canon river at the town of memorial and canon memorial.
We were allowed to walk around at will and we could interact with the migrants um at will we were allowed to take pictures. There was no concern about this. We just had to check in with the center of front.
The 3 of front is the panama anian border authority。 Once we are checking, uh, we were on our own and people were interested in talking, including migrants. So we had many conversations with migrants.
And these migrants I I have to tell you, when they come to the southern border of the us, um they get through on the basis that they are political refugees. They aren't when we talk to them in the transit camp, everybody tells the same story. They're fleeing um economic collapse and they are fleeing in the direction of what they perceived to be economic opportunity.
And of course, in american law, these two things are very different. We protect people who are seeking political asylum, but we do not offer automatic economic asylum. And the reason for that is fairly clear, which is that in order to protect people at nominally, we end up robbing americans of their economic well being.
And we just not something that people are entitled to no matter how much compassion you may have. People fleeing IT is not um our responsibility. Especially not without some sort of a plan, an agreement about how many people are going to come through and in what way we're going to take care of them and how that's gonna get paid for.
Um we don't uh we don't do that but in any case, you get the same story from everybody. There are they're fleeing a an economic crisis and they are moving um north that many of them have terrible stories about what happened to them in the daily gap. So that's one thing.
And you see with when you go into this this camp, can I in real you see the hallmark of the international community. You see N G O emblems all over the place proudly. AmErica and flags paid for the water system, the toilets that are there.
The united states government is facilitating this economic migration. And its unmistakable, as is an organization called the I. O M, which is the international organization for migration, is a branch of the U.
N. And if you read their there's charter, you will discover that this organization believes that migration is an inherently good thing that is always good. And so they see that as their jo B2Bring IT abo ut to fac ilitate. And in this case, that's particularly tragic because they are desire to induce people to migrate, is causing people who are all fully unprepared for the day and gap to try to make that journey. And um the the humAnitarian tragedy is is immense.
So the U N of which and I think is I think the largest donor by far, is paying for this with U. S. government. Yep.
apparently they are now panamanians are largely unaware. Some are aware that there's a migration, but in large measure, this migration once IT gets through the area and gap boards, buses. And effectively, what I now understand is that all of the countries in central amErica are effectively waving the migrants through, because those migrants are not going to stop in these countries as long as they keep going to the U.
S. These countries are willing to remain silent about IT. Now, in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one, heather and I actually traveled the other direction through central america, through all of the countries south to uh to cost reka and all of those borders are tightly .
control oh I mean .
yeah um and so IT is very surprising to find those controls are effectively lifted here. That's clearly the result of a massive coordination and um of course, it's resulting in a large migration. But what I was going to tell you about the fact that this migration doesn't appear to me to be just one thing is that we went to another camp called sand vette, and everything in savanna is different.
Then IT was a canon umbria 3， the center. First of all, it's not a town. This is a camp that is built as a transit camp.
It's built of containers and various objects to how as people. And IT is almost entirely chinese. Now there we're chinese for chinese, chinese.
That's a long .
way from china. IT here is. And what's more, in this camp, the rule that you are able to go in and walk around and talk to people is not in evidence.
The center of front, the panamanian border control, actually forbid us to go into the camp. So we had to stay on the outside of IT. We were also forbidden to photograph IT. So what photographs we have were taken covertly um but the most striking thing we .
asked us so is that the government of china.
do you believe this fun is well, let me tell you the other thing I found and then I think the answer to that will become clearer outside of the sAnderson tic camp the chinese migrants are um you can interact with them. There are a couple of shops where they go to buy water, snacks or whatever. And so you can interact with them at those places.
They are the opposite of forthcoming. They have no interest in talking to outsiders. And i've been to dangerous places before.
I've been to places where people fear their government and can't talk to you because feel it's not safe. They didn't feel like that at all. This felt like people who did not want to share information because IT would be a mistake to do so.
And what's more, there was an incident where Michael, who has lived in china, he's been all over the world and he started up or try to start up a conversation with A A guy who claim to be from korea and Michael tripped him up and got him to speak chinese and then there was a various laughter at the fact um that he had tried to pull this caper on Michael. So IT is not a friendly migration. These chinese folks who are overwhelmingly male, military age, there are women present.
I realized only this morning that in thinking back, I saw few, if any, children in the chinese migration. They were everywhere in the other places we visit IT, but they were not present as far as I remember in the in the same person take camp. So what I have piece together and this is a place where i'm going to speculate this is a hypothesize is is not a conclusion.
But what I began to suspect was that the chinese migration is actually being closed by the economic migration coming from south amErica and that that um is consistent with the observation that IT has some different motivation. I learned from Michael that the chinese migrants in the sand, the centipede p largely bypass the darian. They because they have money, they they can go by boat and they can skip most of the peril of the dayan gap.
And uh, in any case, it's a very different phenomenon. And to see IT housed so separately is quite conspicious. I do not know what the rational for the us.
To make give any sense of happening. Chinese, these are chinese nationals.
They seem to .
be how many did you see? Is talking sixty or six hundred or it's very hard to .
say because we were held at one edge of the camp. So I probably saw. One hundred and fifty faces but the camp out is deeper now Michael does some drone recondition and he's also this camp many times. Um he would definitely be the person to ask in terms of a good estimate for how many of these folks there are, but the the degree to which this is not consistent with a well, let me back up a second.
I regard the chinese people as victims of an oppressive government that I fear for my own reasons for so there's nothing about the fact that these folks are chinese that throws me and if they were fleeing that government um i'm not sure what we should do about that but i'm certainly supportive of their desire. I would feel a great deal of sympathy and in fact I felt a great deal of sympathy for all of the other migrants um that I met. But the sense of it's really hard not to use the term hostility that I felt from the chinese was particularly unsettling given that I know where they're headed right there.
headed to the U. S. And just be totally clear at that point, this was not A A work camp for a know chinese emotional .
cure project. No IT IT was not and what I know is taking place at the southern border of the U. S.
Um makes this even more disturbing because although the controls at the southern border are still there, for those of us who are crossing legally, the lack of any control for those who are crossing illegally is stunning. So I may just compare. When I came back from panama, I approached the key asks with my passport ready to scan IT.
I don't have to. A camera took my picture, and although I didn't know that my picture was about to be taken, I hadn't taken my head off. I was wearing my glasses.
The chaos told me I didn't need to put my passport there. And then a customs officer behind me called my name bread. He said, do you have anything to declare? I said, no.
He said, you're good to go. So we have technology that is capable of identifying a person um with that level of ease to the point that they knew exactly who was coming through the border. But we are not apparently taking that information when people cross our southern border. What we're doing at most is asking them their name and their birth date and taking them at their word. But no biometric collection, apparently not.
Which means that, you know, even if this were simply a matter of our system being overwhelmed by migrants, you would at least want to collect that in so that if a troublemaker did come through, which is inevitable that they will, you could begin to figure out who you might be, right, so that you know they had an identity even even if I was just connected to biometric data, that would be useful. But we're not doing IT. So um what I think I saw my hypothesis for what I think I saw is that there is an invasion taking place.
It's it's not a sleeping cell because it's on the move. But I started to think of them as sleep Walkers. And there's also a massive migration. And the migration is causing IT is causing us to have difficulty discussing the invasion, which is distinct phenomenon .
in indifferent, simply from desperate peasants from poor countries coming here for work.
There is no desperation in evidence. And Michael also gave us a video, which I can't establish the origin, but IT is a chinese cartoon, uh, set to happy music of immigrants moving through central america. Changing modes of transportation and IT basically indicate years.
The road you will travel was IT produced by the C. C. P. I can't be certain of that, but that certainly is suggested that this is A A message about how to make this journey for what purpose I don't know, but I do not believe that the people I encountered had left china without the knowledge of their government. I believe their government has some reason to uh to have facilitated.
but the administration must be aware of this.
Our administration, yes, IT is. But here's the problem i've been wrestling with. IT used to be that IT was hard to convince people that our system was deeply corrupt back in the days when those of us who were focused on this issue used to talk about campaign finance reform.
IT was a IT was a problem, you know that you could grapple with. IT was of that scale. Now we have it's like a whole different level of corruption, right? And here's the question that i've never heard a good answer to.
What stops our enemies internationally from buying influence over our system in the same way that corporations do ended. I can think of anything, and i've never been right. I don't think there is any such safeguard.
And if there is such a safeguard, I would like to know how often IT has been triggered. Certainly, our enemies will have noticed that we have a system that pay for play and it's certainly, I mean, it's perfectly in keeping with sun zoo. At the very least, IT would be far cheaper, easier, safer from their perspective to um persuade us to harm ourselves than to go to war with us. So again, I don't know i'm i'm a biologist time you know this is .
not my we you're an observer of things that's what the .
study biology is right IT is and unfortunately this is the most personality of explanation for what i've seen now is that somebody has persuaded us to um endorse a policy that is decidedly not in our interest.
And I will also say that i'd become aware in the process of doing this that the chinese have a rather famous plan for the world called the belt road initiative um in which they have scoped out where the resources are and how there to get from one place to another. What many people who know about the belt road initiative don't know is that they have also you know the belt initiative is largely about africa and age. But apparently there has been a considerable amount of thinking in china about how belt road would work in the new world as well.
And it's in full Operation. I mean, think crow, which is an american protected saying cry next, you know, the american version island, its road system is built by .
china very go. And there's a lot, a lot of investment in panama. And there is certainly talk in china about opening the David gap.
which opening IT .
paving IT, paving IT, right?
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not a bamboo in .
vine bridge or no this is a massive concrete and steel highway bridge um being built over the two canoe river into the arian what's on the other side is inpenetrable jungle and a few villages. This bridge does not make any sense .
to any idea who's paying for that.
Um that is much less clear. There are no signs. Most people in panama are completely unaware that any such project exists um there are no proud signs as there are in the transit camps. Um I will say we spoke to the form of the project and in the project is actually pretty impressive and know it's a construction site. Nobody standing around, they are building a bridge and there doing so um impressively to the workers seem to be local panelists and they do um the former was panamanian and we asked him what the purpose of the bridge was and he didn't know but he speculated that IT was to bring yoka from daring from the villages on the other side into panna a that's that's a low .
margin agricultural product for those were watching IT doesn't justify a still reince.
There's nothing about this any sense I mean, yoka it's it's like a potato yeah um IT grows all over pan and eat all over the world's tropics um there would be no reason to grow in darian. In fact, there very good reasons not to encourage more of IT to be grown in deion, given the Priceless habitat that will be cleared to grow yoga there for no good reason. There's lots of Better places to do IT.
So what I was left with is the sense that um there is a bridge going in and IT has a purpose that has not been shared with the panamanians. That purpose really has to be as far as I can tell, it's gotto be one of two things either this is about bringing lumber out of darian national park, which is Priceless wood part still standing because IT is such a difficult jungle to access. So it's possible that somebody has targeted that would and not told the panamanians and they're building a bridge for that purpose.
But the other potential purpose is that they're intending to finish the pan american highway through the, which is something that would certainly need to be discussed to be reasonable now in the aftermath of our trip um and vender steel put up a video sharing uh just a view of this construction side in her perspective on IT and this caused A A small scandal in panama because the panamanians weren't to wear and suddenly this was on the internet and they were talking about what is this bridge at the southern end of uh of of the pan american highway in panorama and the panamanians claimed that he was just to reach the villages on the other side. So i'm left with the very odd sense that they're cover story is that this is a bon doggone, right? If this was a boom dogger and they were just putting money into a project that meant nothing, then that would explain the bridge to nowhere.
But this didn't look like a blue dog, or this looked like somebody wanted the bridge. And given the build road initiative and the sense that the chinese have about what the future should look like and in which direction resources should move and for what purpose, it's hard for me not to connect the dots between these things. right? You have a massive migration of people, labor.
You have a likely invasion of military age. Large chinese males um who are not forthcoming about why they have embarked on their journey and appeared to be encouraged by something in china to do this. So you know, I don't know.
is there given what you're describing and what you saw with your own eyes, doubt you have seen senator Victory vili noise comments in the senate where he said, hey, we should let people who came here illegally join U. S. military. what? What does that make you think?
Well, this makes me think back to the covered crisis and some thoughts that I was developing them, about the insanity of throwing highly trained people, in many cases, out of the U. S. Military, for refusing to take the so called vaccines.
And my sense at the time was that that likely had the purpose of getting rid of the kings of people who refuse immoral orders, right? And that I created a much more compliant force. Now, what happens if migrants are given citizenship in exchange for military service in the U. S. military? That seems to create a major hazard because the perversion sentiments for a migrant and the lack of allegiance to fundamental american values means that that would be just the kind of force that could be used to impose tyrant's on other americans, because because they would have you no history with us, that would cause them to think twice.
We've seen this before with roman legions. 嗯， that's exactly my conclusion. Does that sound a crazy conclusion?
I think we have to stop punishing ourselves for considering things that once seemed crazy. But the pattern of recent.
i'm sorry, I wanna give you that. I think we have to stop puni shing ourselves for considering things that one seems crazy. You getting .
that tattoo? Yeah well, I mean this is where we are and IT is it's causing me to do something that i'm reluctant to do. My my training is as a scientist and scientists um have to have A A substantial degree of cautious and set scepticism to do the work.
But in order even to reach the possibilities that would do fully explain what we're seeing, we have to be ready to consider um consider the larger picture. Now I was talking to Chris Martin and while we were in panama, we were our last day trying to just unpack what we had seen, what had meant to us. Chris, also scientist and people can check this out on the dark warse locals community.
Um we've posted the entire conversation in which e and I reach some. I think we spooked ourselves. I'm trying to reason through what this this might be. And he reminded me of the a massive number of surplus males that china now has a result in in the exact same .
thing as resumes, one child policy.
One child policy. Now here's the part that I suddenly realized. As soon as he reminded me of that, I wrote an essay years ago about the one child policy and the paradox of a heavy bias in favour of males. And the reason that this is a paradox is that there is a principal. And evolution, well understood, is the result of the work of guy named ronal Fisher and what Fisher realized was that although males and females can be very different in how many offspring they produce, and because a male could produce thousands of offspring in a lifetime and a female for talking about humans could think the maximum is something impressive like sixty.
But um nonetheless because males can produce a lot more IT seems that IT might be evolutionary advantages to be one but it's not because for every over performing mail there's an underperforming well or at least one and the result is that sexy issues, no matter how different males and females are in their maximum reproductive capacity, they tend to default to one to one. If you have a society that has too many females, you should produce a male and if you have a society with too many males, you should produce a female which tends to baLance these things out. That logic should have applied to china.
The fact is there were lots of access males. And if you put yourself in the mindset of a chinese person having a child, if there are too many males, you should want to produce a female. A male is very unlikely to find a mate.
A female is certain to find one. And what's more, SHE has her pick of the litter. Yes, so that logic should have caused the sex ratio to return to fifty, fifty. And yet IT did not, which caused me all those years ago when I wrote this peace, to wonder if there wasn't another evolutionary force in play, if evolution did not have a mechanism for producing armies, that, when a country was in a position to expand, that producing excess males does pay off at the lining age level that access males who have no reproductive prospects at home become an effective weapon against neighboring populations so I can't believe that that did not occur to me as I was um preparing for this trip but um IT has occurred to me now I guess I didn't OCR to me because when I wrote that all those years ago I was expecting to see evidence that this was turning into military force and I didn't see IT so I stop thinking about IT um but now I wonder if that isn't exactly right and if what happened is that um a male biased population in china was produced as a weapon. And if that weapon is now being deployed, it's remarkable.
So that would so so far we have the U. S. Government abetting this, a branch of the U.
N. Chinese government. Did you see any other founders or parent founders of this?
Well, i'm not expert in this area at all. We did go to a place, so I I guess I didn't say this. Twenty five years ago, I worked in panama. I lived on bar color out of island, which is an island administered by the Masoni, an institution in the panama al IT was a hill top that got isolated when the can filled. And this moonie took IT over, because IT was a marvelous opportunity to have an isolated piece of forest that they could watch over time and learn how tropical biology works. So I had the privilege of living in the canal for eighteen months, and I got very familiar .
with the canal in the panama canal .
for eight months. Absolutely that we used to swim in the waters um for whatever reason, the crocodile that inhabit those waters, if we would encounter them while swimming, they would turn and go the other way, which was lovely apparently that's no longer true when you can't swim there. But yeah.
I live there. What is what you studying?
Tent making bats? I know that sounds i'm only .
asking because I really for you are benefits. I want to remember just how dramatically your life is changed. Yeah well.
I I still have tent making bets. It's true. It's a little it's a little mirror that exists in this forest but anyway, maybe we will talk about that another time um but I was well familiar with the canal zone because we used to the canzone.
In fact, the military was before the hand over to the panamanians. So we you know, the military made IT possible for the Mason ian to work there. And we were constantly interacting.
We were going on their basis. We go on their basis to watch a movie um so we were using the military infrastructure, which is now all been handed over the panama. And what impressed me was when we went back specifically to for clayton, something that is now called the city of knowledge.
The city of knowledge is housed in, uh, where its central building is the former army south building from the U. S. Southern command.
So this is both an important fact for the military. The U. S. Thern command is a segment of the military dedicated to uh, protecting american interest in the corbyn and all of that amErica south of mexico and IT has this impressive structure in fort colton.
Immediately a above the um the last florist locks um so IT was both physically there to protect the canal and IT was metaphorically this imposing presence looking out over to project power self absolutely. And after the hand over, all of the military bases that we're in the canal zone were handed over and this one has been taken over by the U. N.
And the international community and all the nos have offices there and IT reminded me of how many things in our society have been. Had their purpose inverted, right? Universities used to exist to make Young people, uh, smarter and more analytically capable.
University is is now make people stupider and convince them of things that just simply aren't true. Newspapers used to help us understand what the facts were about events that we're taking place to involve. Now newspapers have secure the facts from us um that the last report, the news after we embarrass them into doing IT. So this structure that once a was a testament to the achievement of the panama and the importance of protecting the panic now um is now involved in what looks like obvious subterfuge against american interests, right an organization that is dedicated to facilitating migration without asking americans without there being any plan at all for how uh the well being of these people is going to be financed that their office I O M is sitting if this building U S army south the last florist locks um is um it's like a it's like a person and at that person's left nee is the I O M looking out at the bridge of the americas which when I was there was the only way across the panama now, right, it's almost the exact version of what these structures were built for. And how many times do you have to see the inversion of something to begin to get the sense that that something has taken over our system and it's it's become sick.
Well, it's it's i'm sure there's a biological uh, term to describe the process of what may be cancer, the body eating itself. I mean, IT seems like the structures set in place to protect the country are now at war with the country.
I do have the sense that um the country, the structures and it's not even just country is the west and you know I view myself as very much a patriot of the country, but i'm also a patriot of the west, which I see the country is having IT may be a slightly overstated to say that invented the concept but but in any case, yes, the west appears to be sick with an infection. And again, I don't want to drag you into too much biology but everybody knows what a parasite is. There's also something called a parasitoid and paroit is a parasite that kills its host in the process of doing its job and i'm concerned that we may have A A parisot ID that is actually um at least indifferent to the destruction of the united states and the west and is acting accordingly.
So I know it's become your lifework or part of your life work to figure out what exactly that that energy is. Are you any closer?
Um I suppose I I am I maybe I am part way and that part involves I I now look at a map with much more skepticism that I understand what that means that we have become so accustomed to looking at something like a nation like china and thinking of IT as an entity that behaves in some way and something about the um the ease with which various power structures interact suggest that we I don't understand why my government is behaving in a way that seems um to be sabotaging the interests of average americans but IT is underived ly um IT seems to be acting on behalf of our enemies.
I don't know whether that could conceivably be because um there's actually hostility, I doubt IT, but my guess is what there is is just a uh a rampant outbreak of immorality where people are willing to do whatever is expedient and that has made the game rather easy for um powers that be elsewhere. And I don't know I don't know where the analysis becomes absurd. I have watched policy on the west coast make the quality of life drop spectacularly so that people are fleeting, including wealthy people.
And I look at wealthy people fleeing california, for example. And I think something about this story doesn't add up. It's rather a lot like building up a population with too many males.
There's something else that explains this because at the end of the day, wealthy elites are going to end up with the best real state. So the fact that they are fleeing either means that which you, leeds, are going to end up with that real status about to switch. Maybe this was a real state scam. Male will always .
be occupied by rich people.
IT will. But rich, rich people, and I wonder, you know, having seen something that very much looks like and undeclared invasion moving through central america. Knowing that the chinese communist party thinks in terms of long term planning over the movement of people and resources, that our system, uh, we have effectively open the gates of the city to anybody who's willing to pay to corrupt our political structures.
There is a story you could tell in which the C, C, P has a different understanding of what the future of our country is that most americans do. And well, I just put IT this way. Maybe i'm imagining what I saw, but if i'm not, then all of those chinese migrants who don't want to talk about what they're doing moving into the U.
S, they're going to do something. I don't know what is going to be. but. I don't know when we became so naive about the fact that we have. There are parties abroad who do not wish as well and would not mind at all, seeing us um removed from our position of power and who knows maybe know some of us are displaced from the company we live on. I can't say I mean.
china is is learn the other side of the world. It's also not hate mean, there's economic opportunity in china and but there's also economic opportunity for unemployed chinese in the Philippines or vietnam, malaysia.
It's not obviously.
they would come to the darran gap together.
Well, the arian gap is a very strange place to have gone. For one thing, as Chris Martin and points out the absurdity, if we are going to invite people in, let's say, let's say, we had decided that we we didn't have enough people to do labor and that IT was actually good for the us. To bring in large numbers of people from elsewhere.
Having people go through the, the, the theater of marching through darian is absurd and dangerous. And IT is creating a humAnitarian crisis, addition to the environmental crisis, which is in recreating a humAnitarian crisis that absolutely needless either these people should be welcomed because it's good for us to bring them in exactly, or they shouldn't be there at all. And the only purpose I can think, especially given that the chinese, many of the chinese, I don't want to say all there are chinese people in the other camps.
We saw that as well, also not forthcoming about anything. But um the the only purpose I can think of for coming to amErica via panorama is that IT allows them to blend with all of the people who are coming from south america. IT makes IT hard to discuss, but I can think of another reason to do with that way, at the very least, wildly inefficient.
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Did you run into into any journalists from big newspapers or T, V channels when you were down there?
Absolutely not. Um which is also shocking. I mean, this is emblematic of the era we are living in, where the issues which obviously have are well being tied up in them are hiding in plain sight.
It's not hard to see this story. All you need to know is where to go. You go look at IT. And the fact that that's not happening, that are major news organizations are disinterested in the story, again, suggest a system that he has been corrupted across the board.
You would imagine that even if the new york times didn't want to report the story, that some reporter with ambition would chase IT down anyway. But so universal is the complicity here that nobody reports IT. And if they do report IT, they report IT wrong, they report IT so that IT leads you to have a confused sense or a sense that this is more minor than IT is.
But we're talking literally about millions of people. And millions of people is not a minor issue in a country with three hundred million, right? This is a major demographic shift one way .
or the other yeah in a permanent one did you what did you we hear about the cartels when you are done? And we hear a lot about them in this country, but in pretty non specific terms.
Um we heard that they were present, and I don't think that's a new phenomenon. We also heard so there's a lot of um what we would call coyotes at our southern border or cut snake hats. There's a lot of this going on in darian.
People are paying to have somebody sheppard them through and that often go well. Um so they are present. The cartels appear to be um making a great deal of money from this.
They're probably not happy to have you discussed. I don't know what that implies. But also, I would point out, the farther north, this migration obviously has a relationship with the car tels.
The cartels are largely about american demand for illicit substances. And a massive uncontrolled wave of migrants is an obvious mechanism. Thereby fant and other things are entering the U.
S. In an on monitor way. I mean an in fact, to the extent that they come in with migrants, you know we are apparently facilitating their transport into the interior. We're spreading them around. And um so what I can say is the cartels are not directly via visible to um a visitor, but their influence is felt and discussed.
You're describing a lot of different crimes happening simultaneously.
yp.
What's the solution? Well, I mean.
in strictly IT goes back to the idea of giving ourselves permission to entertain all kinds of possibilities, even things that are crazy and we have to ultimately reject but we have to um we have to not talk ourselves out of noticing what is take that's .
a scientific principal is IT.
Well, you know it's funny. Scientists don't scientists are losing their way as well. And I think how scientists actually done is um is being forgotten. And you know I I think I think we are actually literally in a cypher dark age now every dark has a small number of people, I call them keepers of the flame who do remember how to do science and keep that knowledge alive in one way or another. But it's time um it's time to dust IT off and bring IT out into the mainstream.
And you know the tool kit for figuring out what a story like this means is not different from the tool kit you used to figure out what's going on a tropical forest. It's hypothesis testing and what you don't want. You know people have heard from me now.
They're heard some things. They may be shocked by them. You don't know. This is one person's view of what they saw. What you really want is many people to have seen IT.
And then you want them to pull their understanding to point out what doesn't make sense about one story, one explanation or another. That's the process. And the few of us who are on the case, the words we're going to deal and we should just expect that.
So the first answers is just wake up. Something is a foot that none of us have seen before, even to the extent that there are echoes of historical processes here. Much of this is is quite now, I mean, for one thing, a mass migration through a dense jungle where people have been informed about how to transit IT.
You buy cell phone where money can be wired by western union to buy yourself a bus ticket after you've been robbed by bandits. Ds, in the forest, right? This, this, this is some weird combination of very low tech and very high tech.
What person of the migrants have smart phones?
Well, I don't know, but I my guess is a lot much larger percentage have them at the beginning of their track, then have them at the end, in part that's because of rampant theft. Yeah, I talked to A A woman. Her name is jane.
She's venezia, and he was a college student in venezuela as fleeing the collapse of her society. SHE was robbed. Everything SHE had in darian.
I'm almost certain SHE was raped. I didn't ask her, but I told her that I thought her journey had been more parallel than SHE shared. And SHE confirmed that. And I think we both knew what I was talking about um but in any case, SHE lost her phone um to bandits.
But the other thing that happens is the exhaustion that people who are unprepared for the aim gap experience in struggling up these just mud doesn't even describe at the clay and these oils as such that you just imagine incredibly slippery faces and they are being drenched in rain on a daily basis. People are so exhausted that they rid themselves of the possessions that they thought they would somehow bring through. Um you know they they lose their shoes, they drop all of their possessions and they walk out with nothing. Um so in any case, I would say probably most of them have phones when they when they embark. And I have no idea what the percentage actually what is he doing .
to the environment, to the landscape?
It's a catastrophe. I mean, it's certainly going to be limited at this point to the I think there are three major routes through the darian gap at the moment. They are absolutely littered with.
Trash and bodies and it's apparently quite hallie. In fact, jane told me that on her track, SHE spoke pretty good english. SHE said that SHE didn't see a single animal, i'm sure SHE mant mamo.
But the idea of walking across arian and not seeing a single memo suggests that this is just absolutely devastating. Now it's nothing compared to what will happen if a road gets put through. Roads have a very well understood impact on a forest like this.
Once you have roads, you're going to have hunters and they are going to empty the forest. You going to have empty forest syndrome. After that, you're going to have loggers.
There are going to be pulling out all of these Priceless tropical hardwoods. You're going to get miners who are going to illegally go there and mine and leave big tAiling piles and toxins. It's it's a devastating impact at the moment.
My guess would be that the forest is rescued, but the process has to stop. If IT continues to go down this road, uh, IT will be unsafe. Has the government .
of pama said anything about minutes? Their territory.
mostly they don't say anything. And what we were told was that this was kind of the deal that if they assured people through they facilitated their movement that those people would keep going. And this is A A temporary cost for pana. Um I think if the people of panama thought that the migration was going to stop and they were going to have to absorb all of these migrants, there would be riots in the streets that's my guess.
Panama s for other reasons and rather uh parallel situation um because after the hands over the panamanians upgraded the canal um and they did so according to plans that americans had drawn up they put in a third lane for boat traffic but the food so every time a boat transit the canal, a huge amount of water is lost in the process of lifting and and lowering boats when the americans strip the plans for a third lane, which the americans did not complete, the panamanians now have IT involved the damming of a second river to provide more water so that never happened. Panama is now in the drought and the drought combined with the massive extra losses of water is resulting in the panama a canal um having greatly reduced traffic, which is a huge hit, the panama an economy because each of the ships to transit the canal uh hands over a huge pile of cash to be allowed to do IT um and this is a major piece of the panama economy. We're at the beginning of the dry season. I don't know what's gna happen by the end of the dry season, but IT may go from a greatly reduced number of transit per day to, I don't know, good, good and none maybe which would be A A big hit to the world economy. Actually.
this is why the nicos are considering completing that. Can all right.
nico gans, that has been long under discussion for.
oh.
one hundred and fifty year. Yeah right. So I don't know if the icr ogonis are going to the moment the panamanians are using uh, the train that parallels the canal and basically lots of ships are offloading their car go onto a train and it's going overland to a ship on the other side. Um so in any case, panama has a stability problem of its own and that combined with the hazard posed by this migration and you know if amErica closes the the door on this migration, where do these people go?
So last question, if you were to um I know that you will continue your journey inquiry in in this topic, but who .
where else .
would you go to get answers to what exactly happening?
Well, if if I was if I was initiating an effort to figure out that question, I would bring the people who have navigated the story thus far together with uh whatever experts still exists on the various related topics. I mean, Frankly, I would talk to Michael yan about all of the things that are connected to the story, all the things you seen all over the world.
He has a very good sense for who the players are and what he knows has to be brought together with an understanding of how these dynamics might play out. But I have to say, i'm not sure. I don't know how much time we have.
Again, I don't know if what I saw implies another shoe is going to jump. How many of these chinese sleep Walkers have to end up in the U. S.
Before some other phase kicks off? What was the involvement of covet? Is that just happens to? Or is there is something about the covered crisis that is in some way connected to what we are? now? What do you mean? This is a place we have to be extremely careful.
I am just looking at the various puzzle pieces and trying to imagine what they could mean. We know that SARS coffee, too, was the product of dual use research with, yes, bioweapons, despite protein in the so called vaccines, was taken from SARS cov too. So IT is also the product of bioweapons research.
Now again, I will say that again because i'm concerned that people will take IT as a conclusion rather than a hypotheses. This is only hypothesis. And when I said hypothesis IT doesn't mean that I believe it's true IT means that I believe it's plausible.
the. The vaccines that people got, you may remember, I think we talked about at the last time I was here. People who get more than three of these shots have an interesting effect that are none of us shortcoming, which he is, the triggering of something called I G T four.
I G means a mung lobon, so send an implanted body. Igg is a class of immunology. An and I G G four is a very interesting sub class I T force purpose. Its biological purpose is to turn down an a in response.
So um if your body is reacting to something IT shouldn't react to the nature has granted as a mechanism for turning down that reaction so you don't die from from an algy effectively. This is what allergies do is they try to trigger that attenuation signal in order to get the body to stop reacting to something that IT shouldn't be reacting to. The fact that these shots seem to triggered the production of I G G four is fascinating.
I could just be a an unexpected consequence that nobody saw coming. But if you think about what IT is that the folks who try to produce biological weapons want they want a weapon. That separates populations.
In other words, a weapon is not good. If it's not contagious, then you have to drop IT on enough people to matter. That's difficult. If IT is contagious, then your own population risk of getting IT. So the problem is there is not a good design mechanism to deal with that.
But if the mra vaccines produced an attack using signal in people who got more than three of these shots than conceivably, that attenuation signal could cause that population of people to be induced not to react to a pathogen. He just added to the Spike protein to IT. Presumably IT would trigger that signal.
So here's why i'm mentioning all of this cane biology. The chinese did not vaccinate their population with mr. A technology or anything based on Spike protein. So those two populations are now different in this regard.
Which again might mean nothing but what we learned so painfully in the battle uh against the mainstream narrative over these so called vaccines is that um. The reason that I say so called vaccines, and I try to say at every time, is because what these things turned out to be is gene therapy. But that doesn't even quite cover the problem with them.
They are gene therapy in the sense that they introduce a genetic message into yourself ells, and they get yours cells to translate IT. But there's also a part of our bodies that absorbs messages in a whole different way. It's our immune system.
Our immune system literally evolves on the scale of hours to days when you get an illness. That's how we spend our illnesses that evolves rapidly. And so the message that was injected into so many people was like a firm where update IT was a firm more update that caused the immune systems of those people to take up a new wave viewing the world.
And that new way of viewing the world seems to have produced this attenuation signal in response to the antigen, the Spike protein antibody. So am I seeing a marsh? Let's hope so.
So just turn flesh out or put in non specialist terms what you may be suggesting. It's plausible that this was all an effort to make one population effectively immune from some newby a weapon, and another population is set to IT.
Uh, that is what i'm saying. And again, all IT is is possible, right? I have no evidence that this did happen except for the odd fact of this.
I T for why didn't the chinese use R I vaccines?
I don't know. Um IT is, let's put up this way. Nobody should have. Of course, there is a technology that was just simply not fit for human consumption, but one does not know.
And further, we got a lot of nonsense out of china that caused people, including me, to be more frightened of SARS coffee too. Then was warrant IT. No, me too.
Remember the videos of people collapsing dead in the street, right? That was nonsense. So I don't know who's who on this playing field, and I don't know what they want. But to the extent that there seemed to be an absolute obsession with injecting absolutely everybody with these so called vaccines, that was because is that did not seem like a just greed and a desire to sell my ship.
I agree completely .
IT was bizarre and the fact that we specifically um insisted on vaccinating the entire military and threw people out who wouldn't take IT we've accent ated all of our front line workers. I mean, I mean, and at the time I remember I said to have the on our show, I said, IT, even if these are wonderful shots, IT seems insane, given that we don't know what their long term impacts are, that we would vaccinate all of anybody with them.
How about us? Why people we need.
the people we need most, right? exactly. That's that's hopefully just a merage. But IT is a very frightening one, and I certainly hope that that's not what's going on.
But if IT is there is no time to waste in us figuring out what we have been induced to do and what the proper are. And so to the extended people think that this is an abstraction. IT is not. If there is any possibility at all that that is the nature of what we went through, then IT is essential that we figure out how to neutralize the vulnerability.
So I have kept to you too longer, but just this is my last question. Do you think it's odd, given the Price this country paid for something that china did, that in the official story line from the White house, for example, the chinese are never the villain, is always the americans. So with some second of our population, people didn't take the bacon, or the president just gave a speech saying that other day.
why? Why has no one in authority in amErica said a bad board about china since we discovered that they unleashed, covered on the world? That's pretty weird.
Isn't IT IT is weird. I have to say i'm stuck on this one because the more one knows about what we did play, the more that this is not a simple story of, you know, one country having screwed up and you unleashed hell on the world. This was a collaborative. Now the question is, whose team are those collaborators? On a great question.
I mean, I I must say the whole thing I found shocking. But one of the most shocking things that I have a single person mention is since when does the other states collaborate with china on bioweapons research? You'd think they were ever series, right, just like not just a unit party but a una world or something.
yes. Well, again, I think this is the place where um we have to we have to allow ourselves to think these thoughts and then somebody should talk us off the legging. We should find out it's not nearly as bad as we fear. But but we have to we have to consider these things and reject them rather .
than not think them. I don't know. I know some uh open minded people and I know some rigorously national people. I know very few who combine those qualities as well as you do. And I just have such a pleasure to hear you talk .
so but thank you. Thank you so much ducker.