Author Megan Basham explains why some Christian leaders back policies that are anything but Christian.
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Welcoming the sucker curls in podcast. It's pretty obvious ous at this point that the corporate media are dying quickly. But why? Because they lie.

That's right. They lie and they died as a result, but attack across the outcome. We do not lie.

We promised to bring you honest interviews and commentary without fear. Here's our latest episode. AmErica faces a lot of enemies right now, foreign and domestic.

But from the perspective of the people who run the country, there's really just one enemy. And that's faithful Christians. Now nobody ever says that out loud.

Of course, nobody ever says anything very meaningful out loud in the united states anymore. But if you're interested in who they really hate, will look at what's happening. So Christian churches across the country have been burning, and no one in the government is doing anything about IT.

Look at how Christian churches were treated. During covet step, clubs stayed open. We dispensary stayed open. Liquor stores stayed open. But Christian churches were closed because public health. We talk the other day to a guy who's facing eleven years in prison, federal felony charges from the by administration for praying and an abortion clinic, and daring to sing him.

So if you are a faithful Christian, not a fake question, even french Christian, but an actual Christian of the kindness country is always had, of the kindness country is created to harbor actual, uh, you are seen as an enemy by the people who run in. And of course, nobody hates Christians more than long time. Hollywood actor and producer rob reiner, amazingly, and he's just produce a documentary about how faithful Christians are the enemy, if you can believe IT, here's the trailer from that documentary.

We should be blazing forth as a counter cultural example, and instead we are leading the charge of mAlice division. This internationalism uses Christianity as a means to an end that in being some form of authoritarian m, being a Christian is about the values of inclusion. Christian nationalism is certainly not based on the values of gospel.

God wants amErica to be saved. They're told over and over and over again that you're in danger. You need to fight if you don't want to lose your country.

We are in a civil between good and evil.

This is not a movement about Christian values. This is about Christian power that kiss me up at night is that we lose democracy? S yes, rob, right? Or lecturing us on what jesus really wanted.

Now, part of the purpose of this is political, of course. Part of the purpose of the main purpose is spiritual, something about actual Christianity. That's the greatest threat of all to the people in charge. And again, you see IT all around M S N B C the other day hosted a political reporter hidy prize bola attacking Christians who somehow got the idea maybe for our finding documents, that their rights come from god and aren't granted out of the generosity of a common heroes heart. Here's hitty prize bota.

And the one thing that unites us all, and because there's many different groups orbiting trump, but the thing that weren't, unites them as Christian nationalists, not Christians, by the way, because Christian nationalists is very different, is that they believe that our rights as americans, as all human beings, don't come from any earthly authority. They don't come from congress. They don't come from supreme court.

They come from god. They think their rights come from god. They're not granted by the U. S. congress. And political and a highly prized a who by the way, is no idea what he saying is another useful idiot.

Um but what's going on behind the scenes, all the effort that when into getting heighty prized la to Carry this message, probably unknowingly, is worth taking a really close look at. In fact, it's really the only conversation that matters at this point in the history of the west. And mega mash um has been covering this and writing about IT from a position of deep knowledge, and we think some wisdom.

She's reporter for the daily wires. She's written a book about this. He joins us. Now maybe thanks so much for coming on. So this is a much broader conversation, but let's just start with a rob reiner lecturing the rest of us about what Christian really is what is this documentary and what's the purpose of IT yeah it's a little hard .

to get around the irony of that and thanks for having me tuk or um you know to start with I might disagree with A A little bit something you said in your there and that is that they're not saying this out loud because they're very much saying that out loud these days. They are calling evAngelical, particularly evAngelical who engage in the political process, a threat to democracy.

And I think that's the important thing to know because the context of this and for people who don't know what event elles are, why we should care if you're not a particularly religious person, here's why you care. So there are thirty two percent of the american electorate um the atlantic quite rightly call them in twenty twenty one america's most powerful voting block. So they're right about that.

They are essentially the only obstacle that we still have to the left wing agenda. If you remove them, you remove all the bricks is essentially what evAngelical are and what they do when IT comes to the political process. So there's been a very deliberate effort in this film is part of IT. But IT is just a drop in the bucket, to be quite Frank.

Um have an entire cottage industry that is saying if these people, these evAngelical, continue to engage in the a public process to try to influence their neighbors through their vote, uh, through free association, through using their free speech by you get out the vote efforts, anything like that, that's dangerous and scary and that's very much what you saw with this film. So I mean, IT is over the top. I am not going to do with the justice of pretending like IT presents anything like a coherent intellectual argument. IT doesn't uh what IT is essentially does he say here are bad scary Christians and they include in that bucket, by the way, everyone from Billy gram to mike pants to um the unite the right rally which was LED by Richard Spencer and atheist so it's essentially saying all these guys, Jerry fall, well, john mcCarter, they're all of them they are the same as unite right which in itself is bunkers to even try to .

create a parallel there um so they claim and I ve haven't en, but there's Richard sponsor is a liberal who hates Christianity and there's saying that Richard Spencer is a Christian nationalist.

correct? Yes so I know as they sort of trace the arc of Christian nationalism in american history, uh what they show is that IT commendations and the united right rally and the january six riot, uh, neither of which has there ever been any evidence were associated with any religious motives. So really what you could call this is a propaganda smear. That's what IT is. It's just one that's being helped along by people who are claim to be speaking for the real Christians, the true Christians, which in the film are the Christians who are prob oration uh pro L G B T Q agenda, who you know, demand a political action on behalf of abortion in their rain drench churches.

I me, i'm hardly a theological, have no interest in becoming one, but I think we can say clusium ly, if you're pro abortion, you're not a Christian. I mean, I think it's kind of that simple as that not and I don't know how you could be for child sacrifice and for Christianity.

right? Yeah, that absolutely is for me. And you know that's part of what? So in city they say that row is the the overturning of role is the combination of Christian nationalist of political Victory.

So if you're going to do that, you have now just said that evan ellis participating in the a political process over the course of got thirty, fifteen years, they put in so much apple that that was nothing more than a political ploy. Y and it's not true. Christians is not true religion. In fact, they say that the only reason Christians and even als in particular, picked up that issue was because they failed at blocking in private schools back in the one thousand nine hundred and sixty so um that's how unserious this film is. But what is serious about IT is that is part of a much larger narrative that we're seeing you everybody knows rob renner, so everybody y's talking about this particular film but let's get real I mean, there's been an entire cottage industry of books from staff writers of the atlantic through uh from Russell more who is in this film himself uh claiming to speak for um this super minded non politically ideal latus Christians which you know that in itself given how political someone like Russell Moore who is the editor Christian tiy today himself is is hugely ironic and I I think that there is also a little bit of um don't look behind the curtain at what the man back there is doing because Russell Moore is absolutely a political actor in a much more deliberate and well fund IT way than you know any of the people that this movie is criticizing.

Well let's let's just talk with that I mean to he was a battle leader, of course, for years he didn't like trump in for my prospect telefilm don't have play trump to be a Christian, of course uh or any political leader um but russia m self a political leader and he does IT seems for my outsiders respective very much like he is paid to subvert american traditional Christianity on behalf of the democratic party he seems like he's betraying his fellow Christians um for money but I maybe i'm just being unfair. You tell me who Russell more as if you would, who, who's backing him and why you think so if you're .

not familiar with Russell. And he was formerly until the last few years at the head of the ethics and religious liberty commission, and that is the political lobbying ARM of the southern baptist s convention. That is the largest protection domination in the U.

S. IT represents uh, some forty seven thousand churches, maybe fifteen million, seven dollars in the country. So if your purpose is to suppress or sway their vote, you're not going to get more bang for your buck than trying to uh infiltrate the southern baptist convention. And I think that's very much what we have seen with Russell more when he was in leadership.

You know, part of the thing that he did was getting the E, R L, C involved with a group called the evAngelical immigration table, which is essentially just the faith front of the national immigration forum, which is a left wing N G O that advocates for um open border policies, amnesty policies. They are George sorrow funded. They don't like people to talk about that, but they absolutely are.

And so these are the kind of things that Russell Moore was involved in involved in when he was with the erl c um you know he did a lot of publicity with obama trying to convince um all kinds of you know conservative legislators at the time that even elles backed. A amnesty policies and that that's what they wanted and he's still doing that kind of thing today. But eventually, IT was sort of like the jig was up with southern baptist. You had the rank and file who did not feel represented by him really dissatisfied with the kind of political lobbying that he was doing so yeah he said he was psychologically terrorized now he has never defined .

what he meant .

by the he said he was psychologically terrorized finding southern baptists who were not fans of his um and again and this was repeated in atlantic writer timoa t book. But nobody ever defines what he meant by that. Everybody just certain takes him at his word. So I don't know what he meant by that, but what we do know is the ranking file did not really like his political views. So he left and he went and became the editor and chief at Christians today.

And what they're doing in this cycle right now, for example, is they have launched A A A curriculum that is a political bible study to help Christians refrain their political identity um and it's funded by people like the rock fellers, the a rock feller philanthropy advisors, if you're not familiar with them, they funda out of left doing things are like abortion and quote, quote, gender, a firming care for minors and youth. So puberty blockers, a method, mies for Young girls, hormones, all of that. So things that children of their sexual function.

Um so he he's involved in the group is taking money from them and also from the cute foundation, which is the largest uh and second largest finder, excuse me, of planned parenthood. D so they have created this bible study to go into churches, to go into, uh, Christian colleges, universities. And the council for Christian colleges and universities has been pushing in on to all of there one hundred and eighty five campuses. And essentially what this does is say that issues are complex. And at the beginning of this, you brought up abortion.

Tucker, one of the things that this curriculum m stresses is that if anybody tells you, they think they know the answer on how you should vote for when IT comes to abortion and protecting innocent lives, you should run from that person because you couldn't buy into package deal ethics um and IT is it's in civic but IT is somewhat a vert in this curriculum at one point David french, who is also involved in this curricular, is talking about how complex the issue of abortion is that we don't always know how we should vote regarding IT. Um they show on the screen a woman holding up a pro life sign at a march. So you know the visual messaging there is very clear.

So when you look at this, you go here, you have guys like Russell, mark, David french, who are taking money from hard left secular foundations to push their political curriculum into churches, onto Christian campuses. This is plica political lobbying. And yet, at the same time, during this movie, rob reiner's warning, oh gosh, look at all the doctors, trump voters, all of the dollar ous event, elles who are trying to oppose row, who are happy about the dbs decision, who made political choices to bring that day about. So, you know, there's a huge irony there, or we might call IT hypocrisy and ferrous ism.

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Well, I I do think that there's a different standard for leaders. I mean, they they have the privilege of leadership in all of its many benefits, but they also have deeper obligations to the people they lead. And I wonder of those of the people you've mention, David french and Russell more, you been a lot of killing of Christians around the world.

Is killing of Christians in gaza right now, killing Christians in armenia? A the Christians of a rock were genocide under George w. Bush um and then there are Christians in the united is going to prison for practicing their religion. Have they said anything about any of that?

no. And you know that part of what this is is that they they push forward a message of here is what faithful Christian witness in the public square looks like, but it's only on specific issues, right? It's only on things like welcoming the stranger when IT comes to illegal immigration. So you know, that's a big messaging polish that Russell more, David french have been involved in.

Um IT includes things like, uh, not ideal lizer trump, but when IT comes to these complex issues that we should be talking about from a biblical world view, they don't dive into that at all because that is not part of the messaging that let's say the mainstream media, let's say the secular progressive foundation tions who are funding their ventures. These are not the political ideas that they're interested in. It's not the political debate that they're interested in.

And you know therefore, they don't talk about that and you're not going to hear them talk about that. And look, I think these are issues on which Christians of good faith can have different views, and it's something that we can wrestle with and discuss. But what you notice is they don't wrestle with IT and discuss IT.

They say there is one legitimate Christian outlook to take. And if you express or even ask in any way about IT in, in, in any curious, or you present something else that may go, hey, what about this? I I just read about these ukrainian I an churches that are being shut down.

I have a concern about that. The immediate thing is to tag you as somebody who is a Christian national, as who's a conspiracy there is. And you know, one thing that made me laugh in this film, up when they were trying january six to Christian nationalism.

As they said, one of the dangers we may see coming out of this is that Christians may begin to second guess what happened on january six, and that would be a threat to our democracy. So things that should be the foundations of our democracy, open debate about these issues about, like what's happening in ukraine, or, you know, what's happening in gaza, or any of these subjects where we should have free and open debate. Instead they're saying it's a threat to democracy to have free and open debate as Christians about these issues.

You you must obey and not question people who hate Christianity and want to kill Christians otherwise you're not a Christian. That's that's what, say, one of things that bothers me most about all of this and shocks me a little bit is if you live in a poorish society like hours, which is great um one of the rules is you can't attack other people's religions and and you may disagree with them I disagree with lot of different religions. But if you want to all live together, you can't just attack the theological precepts of other people's religions that else people really start to hate each other and it's impossible to live together and yet these attacks on Christian nationalism are exactly that does anyone see that is unwise? Like, let's not do this.

I mean, you certainly you're seeing rank and file people saying this is unwise and you are starting to see something of okay. And we can debate whether not this is wise, but you're seeing some people going we are getting tagged with this Christian nationalism label anyway.

So maybe what we should do is just accept IT and you will give you a definition that is different from the definition that they're going to give IT since they are going to push this agenda anyway. Um here's the situation is that we see where this spins out. We see what ens in societies where we've made IT OK for the government to start investigating churches, starting to question people's doctoring and theology.

And that actually is a dangerous road to go down and that's not something that they grab with at all in this film. It's certainly not something that you know the public theologian of Christian today, which is the flagship magazine of even Angelica ism and should be grading with this you this issue, that's not something that they discuss at all. And you know you you don't want to scare monger, but at the same time you go, I can see very clearly the direction IT goes in when we have R D O J investigating catholic churches as hotbeds of domestic terrorists.

That is not a good place for us to head down. And so this entire narrative is setting something like that up. And if we're going to do that, you do get to the place where you go.

These are legitimate religions, and these are not legitimate religions. And that actually is something that foundationless. Uh, our founding father said, no, that's not what this country is about. You have freedom to practice your religion in the state is not going to tell you whether you have a legitimate interpretation of your biblical writings or not.

Well, that's exactly right. And if already there, I mean, they're sending by D, O, J, sending a man to prison for eleven years for praying in an abortion clinic. So know if that doesn't bother you as a defender of democracy and freedom of religion.

I mean, you're obviously on the side of total arianism, and they are. So last question is IT working. I mean, the whole idea is is to take sincere faithful Christians and make them abandoned since ere favor Christianity and turn to the left.

That's that's the point of this. Is that working? Yeah I think he has .

been a very effective gambit. So you know, when you look at IT as this two proud approach you have won, where people who genuinely sincere Christians might hear, oh gosh, i'm not loving my neighbor if I am very clear about my views in the public square and that the way of jesus is to be somewhat ashamed and quiet of what our little, little convictions are.

And we ouldn't exercise our constitutional rights in the same way that all of our neighbors do. I I think that absolutely is having an effect, particularly with, you might say, Younger even deals and they might feel a little embarrass like maybe you know it's it's not such a good thing to be so bold and so outspoken about what we think about the cause of life. And then on the other hand, I do think you absolutely have people who are a little bit nervous of where this is heading.

As far as you know how our government is talking about Christians now um how you see some very powerful actor saying I don't want to be viewed as a threat to democracy so um i'm just not going to participate in this voter mobilization effort. Um i'm not going to do things like question january six because I don't want to be lumped in with the people who are viewed as a threat to democracy. And that becomes a problem because there's A A tasted threat there that if you question anything outside of the know official narrative, you're now a .

threats to democracy. Yeah no, it's totally right. I mean, I I said that was made sure of one more, which is if we accept you ve made a very powerful case and I I believe IT that the leadership of a lot of these Christian institutions is totally, totally corrupt and actually working against uh, their flocks members but who I mean who are the leaders that you that you listen to? You know maybe and i'm not even asking this in political terms, who they vote for is you know not as relevant as whether they're clear thinking and honest about the religion. So who who is resisting these attempts at the verge on, do you think?

Well, look, and that's a really good part of this conversation, is that you're seeing, I would say, a new generation of Young pastors, Young dialogs, Young thinkers, look, guys who are um a lot more uh educated and intelligent about the theological debate around these issues than I am but I read them and I love them and know guys like doug Wilson are doing, pastor doug Wilson doing really fascinating work.

Um you're seeing old guard guys like pastor john mcArthur of um california who fought the code closure Mandates and guys like that who never waive red and they never got sucked into all of this and in all of my research for this book, these are the guys that I went I never saw any money being fun al to them and so it's sure funny how they never picked up any of this messaging. Um so I am seeing that I also seeing Young guys within the southern rap is convention. I mean, look there there is a people want know this, this is very granular.

But there is a soul for that massive battle, for the soul of that massive southern of convention right now that is happening. And that's actually very good news to me, because what that means is that IT is not beyond saving and IT matters, because its seminal aries educate and the majority of pastors of all denominations in this country. So it's really important what happens with the southern betis convention and what happens with its semin aries.

And you are seeing a group of um I would say aggressive, unashamed Christian Young guys who are now chAllenging the old guard leaderships. And we do not want to see our convention going that direction. So that's the good news is that they they are a resistance, I would say, but there needs to be more of that and there needs to be more people who are, I guess, I would say, willing to take on the mental of leadership that you cannot just sit in the pews and be upset about what you see happening in some of these ministries. And we need some guys who are onna, step up and take the rains.

Thank you. Thank you so much for john is absolutely fascinating. And forget what's IT teleme if your book .

once more yes so it's uh shepards for sale. How ever leaders traded the truth for electives agenda and unit is barely touched on a little bit of the information about the sorrow funding, the rock fella funding, the clinton funding and all of IT going to um create these faith front groups that create asteroid terf campaigns to try to convince Christians that um the the biblical thing to do is support the party of abortion and the L G B T Q A so I try to wrap your header on that but that's what these .

groups are doing yeah well, there's A A lot of sick. You can overstate that. So something about appreciate your coming on.

Thank you. Thanks for me.

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