S4 Ep32: Jessica Buttafuoco is Coming for Them: Special Bonus episode interview with Jessica Buttafuoco
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Hey, strangers. Happy holidays. Usually strange is dark on holiday weeks and we rerun an older episode. But just like Thanksgiving this year, I decided to give you a bonus episode interview. A few weeks ago, I had the privilege of sitting down with my friend Jessica Buttafuoco. Yes, that Buttafuoco. Jessica is a victim advocate and total badass warrior. I hope you enjoy the interview.

I'm just going to start by saying many years ago, 12 years ago, I got cast in this very strange musical called Jersey Shoresicle, a frickin' rock opera. And I looked at the cast list and my guest today was on the cast list. I'd never met her before. And on the first day of rehearsals, I saw her coming up the stairs and I said, do you know that you have the same last name as... And she went, yeah, he's my father.

So everybody, please welcome to the podcast, Jessica Buttafuoco. Why, thank you for having me. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to have you on the show today. You're so awesome. We haven't been able to spend a ton of time together, you know, over the past decade because of life. It's been about. But, you know, we get to keep up with each other on the socials and it's been really interesting watching your sort of transformation and

and your journey. You know, I think we're both very different from who we were back then. And so I just want to chat with you about like you and your life and your past and how your past has affected your life and all of those things. Yeah. Well, it's just so interesting because like when we met 12 something years ago, you know,

I was still in a highly just traumatized state. So it's very interesting. Even when you were like introducing me just now and how we met and how my first reaction was like, yes, he's my father. And for those of you listening who don't see the visuals, both Daisy and I gave a very big eye roll.

When I said that statement and she reenacted that statement because it has been just such a point of contention for me for my entire life. Like the phrase, oh, any relation is like one of the top phrases that I get for in perpetuity. And honestly, now that we don't have to show IDs as much anymore, we have a little chip in our debit cards. I got to say, I get the question a lot less, which is nice. That's so great. For those of you listening who might be younger and thankfully might not

No, I think you would think that would be a good thing. Why is your name infamous? Great question. How much time do we have on this podcast? Just go for it. So a lot of times now people recognize my name, but don't understand like why. And so people associate it with scandal because back in 92, my father had a mistress, an underage mistress who...

who became obsessed with my father and wanted to take my mother's place. And so she continued to stalk my mother over the course of like six to eight months, tried multiple times to hire other people to murder her. Wow. And eventually when that didn't work, she just tried herself and came to the front stoop of my childhood home. Okay.

Lured my mom out of the house, had a quick conversation with her, and then pulled a gun out of her pocket and shot her at point-blank range on the right side of her face. From that news story, that got picked up by the local news within a couple days. And then...

Within like a week, it became national news. And it was on every news channel, daytime TV, late night TV, eventually got turned into three Lifetime movies that were made and produced at the same time. Wow. And all aired on the same weekend in a rating. What?

People like Alyssa Milano were in the cast. I remember that. Drew Barrymore was in the cast. I actually run into someone that played my father in one of those movies quite frequently out here in LA. And I'm just like, hey, dad. And it's just like a big time trip of how...

how my name and this story became one of the biggest pop culture phenomenons of the 90s. You know, it was the Menendez brothers and then us and then OJ and then the Clintons. And so it's like this little group of scandal, if you will. Of scandal and also of stories that are in some ways being sort of reexamined now through different lenses, which we can get to. And I know you have opinions about that as well. How old were you at the time?

At the time, I was nine years old. So I was a fresh nine, too. It was like two months after my birthday. Third grade. The shooting occurred in the middle of the day, middle of spring. You were at school. I was at school, got the phone call to get my lunch and to meet my aunt at the front of the school. And I was pissed because it was the day of the James and the Giant Peach auditions, which was going to be my musical debut. Someone was going to obviously find me in the audience. Obviously. And I wanted to live your life. Yeah.

But it didn't happen. Didn't get a Tony at 10. I got a trauma at 10. This story was...

fucking everywhere. It was everywhere. It was turned into comic books. Oh, yeah. It was turned into trading cards. I'm sure it was on SNL. Oh, SNL all day. Danny DeVito played my dad. Yeah, yeah. They were clearly making fun of my mother, a gun violence victim who has half of her face paralyzed from an attempted murder. Yeah. And making skits about her not being able to use her face. Wow. And in Living Color, Jim Carrey played my dad. And so like, even

to this day, when I see these actors that are still working and still a major fabric of our society, I'm constantly brought back to those times. Of course. Constantly re-triggered. And fortunately now, and we'll get there later, I've done enough work on myself. Those events don't make me go drink or do a bunch of bad behaviors because I'm so comfortable buying it. But it's something that was extremely sensationalized. I was 12 and I was in Secret Garden at the time that this happened. And

My connection to it was Nathan Lane, who was playing Nathan Detroit in Guys and Dolls. They were doing like a Broadway Cares, Equity Fights AIDS fundraiser performance. And he made a joke that they were going to be doing an Amy Fisher musical.

And he was going to play Joey Bodefucco and I was going to play Amy Fisher, which again, like now looking back on it, it's like I was 12. But like that is the fabric of the culture, right? That was the time where we were hyper sexualizing young women and the relationship between older men and younger women. It was like a Lolita story. Oh, she was called the Long Island Lolita. Yeah. Like literally they dubbed her that at 17. Yeah.

Right. I mean, she is no angel and her life from this incident and into adulthood has still proven to be trash. I mean, she hasn't taken her scenario and done anything positive with it. But still, that doesn't necessarily in my view, she was highly traumatized and abused all that stuff. And cut to, you know, I eventually become a therapist that works with homicidal teenagers. And so I understand how a teenager can get to that point of being completely obsessed with.

murderous homicidal and all that and it's just a shame to see this girl at that time being just completely right through the coals and it's like again she is not my favorite person right she literally gun to my mother's face and tried to kill her and she completely you know changed the trajectory of my life as well but now like you even mentioned earlier when we're looking back on these cases 30 years later with a different set of eyes it's like damn y'all are fucked up and now that old enough

old enough and grown and educated. I'm coming for you. I love it. I love it. I remember one of the conversations we had was that Oprah had had her on the show and you were livid. You were furious. Yeah, right. I was in college by that time. And Amy Fisher had written a book and Oprah had her on her show. At this time, Oprah was like queen, y'all. And Oprah was

was like, she had great guests and it was just such a heartwarming, lovely show. And so when she brings this trash Amy Fisher on, I'm like, girl, what are you doing? Yeah. And so I just like sent an email to the production, like Oprah.com or something and was like, I'm appalled you would have a guest like this. Like, what are you doing? You should have a guest like my mom on the show. Like, hello, let's hear some survivor stories. Why do we keep giving attention to perpetrators like this? Yeah. And then they wrote me back and they were like, do you want to be on the show and rebut what Amy has to say? And I'm like, no,

no, we're not giving any more airtime to that. However, then I kind of was telling them just the consequences of my mom's life and, you know, her facial paralysis. Half of her face was still frozen at 37 years old and the other half of her face by that time was 50. And so she looked...

messed up and that was affecting her self-esteem. She didn't want to take pictures. And just like my mom's such a great person that this act against her has infiltrated every part of her being. It's just hard to witness that. And so I kind of pitched to them like, would y'all be interested in giving her some sort of life lift? Like she's got injuries. She has things, problems now that have occurred. And Oprah was like, yeah. And so we went on and they hooked her up with a

just literally gave her a life lift. And really, it was so helpful and so lovely. That's good. That's a small reparation. Small, very small. But at what cost, right? It cost me going on there as well. They did bring on some sort of psychiatrist at the time that I was not into. Yeah. That was telling me that I'm being abused by my father and being mentally gaslit and all that stuff. And at that time, I was still Team Joey, unfortunately. And so it was just very...

As much as a great experience for my mom, I wouldn't say it was a very great experience for me. You know, it was cool. I met her and she was nice and lovely. Sure. But, you know, at the end of the day, the mental and emotional toll that that kind of stuff actually takes is a lot greater, I think, than the benefits that you receive up front, like a free hotel and a free flight. Right. I'll take the not traumatized for the rest of my life over the night at the hotel. Thank you. Right. Thank

you because y'all ain't paying for my therapy and I remember you telling me that like you know at nine obviously you just had no sort of idea what was happening and there were news crews on your lawn and you were like doing cartwheels I remember you telling me that I sure was yeah because don't

get it twisted. I was trying to live your life, girl. I was trying to be Annie on Broadway. Here they are. Here's my chance, you know? And so I take my boombox out and just put some Whitney Houston on and do some like fierce choreography and then like not understand like, what do you mean you're not here for me? I love the image of like somebody with like early 90s, you know, those bangs, those huge bangs and like shoulder pads talking into a mic being like,

Like, here we are at the location of it. And you're in the background just fucking dancing, twerking, doing cartwheels. It's so funny. They hated it. It'd make me stop. They'd be like, girl, we're trying to do a live segment here. We can't be doing this. And then I'd yell at them. I'd be like, this is my house. Yeah. Do your job somewhere else.

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So it wasn't just me and my family and my house, like my entire neighborhood. And it was a violation of everything. I mean, when you're watching the news and your house is on it and you're inside flicking the lights just for fun. Yeah. You know, like, what is that? And then when my aunt calls, it was like, hey, I saw you flicking the lights on TV. Is everything OK? You're like sending out an SOS. You were. You just didn't know you were. These were early, early days of just hyper exploitation, like, all

I remember in those days, people were selling home videos to places like the Inquirer and A Current Affair and these very like salacious type of media companies. And so I grew up with the complete inability to trust anybody to form genuine relationships with people.

Wow.

and the comic relief and just kind of achieve and succeed. I made sure to do that at all costs, even when it costs me my own mental and emotional health. Yeah. Things like I needed that A, but I was traumatized. And so it's hard to study for a test when people are driving by my house and honking horns and throwing eggs. And so I'd have to cheat. And then I, that made me feel bad because now I'm like my dad and I don't want to be. And it's just like this,

this constant like I am not the apple on that tree I'm a whole different tree but that was like the inner fabric of my being wow and it was fine for a while I did okay in childhood I did okay and in high school because people told me what to achieve and then I out achieved it right and so

I knew that my name entered the room before I did for my entire life. Jessica, that's so funny because I feel the same, but from the sort of opposite end of that spectrum. Sure. And that alone, even though they're on opposite ends of the spectrum, I

think it's a lot of pressure to put on a child, an adolescent, or someone that's just trying to figure out who the fuck they are. And when people have that public expectation of you that has pretty much been curated by other people than yourself, it's challenging and it causes a lot of what they call cognitive dissonance. The inside of your head is not aligning with what's happening either in your heart or the

world and all this kind of stuff. And it just can really cause a lot of problems. And for me, once I got old enough, 13, 14, 15, and I started experimenting with drugs and alcohol and all that kind of stuff, like made me feel better. Let's go. But I also knew being an alcoholic was not good and I didn't want that as a head

So I did a lot of that in silence, kind of just started becoming, I'm going to say like a double life, but like perfect on paper and to like anybody outside. But on the inside, it was not that case. And that was really challenging for me. Wow. You know, it's interesting as somebody who is a part of the true crime entertainment complex and I make my money off of it. And I certainly spend a lot of time in therapy with my guilt over it, right? Of like making money off of people's tragedy. Yeah.

Well, I can tell you, I've listened to a few of your episodes and you are definitely not nice to the perpetrators. Thank you. You like clown them, which is good. You're like, this fucking clown them.

I do also sometimes try to understand like what they must have been going through. Like, I'm sure if I were to do an episode about your story, which it never even occurred to me to do, I'm sure I would include, you know, she was a child essentially and she had her own shit. And that doesn't fucking excuse picking up a gun and shooting somebody in the face.

Right, right, right. And also, you know, part of this too, my dad is not an innocent person either. And reconciling that was one of my biggest life challenges, to be honest. Because once I turned the age that he was when he decided to have sex with a 17-year-old and unfold in the way it did, these are children. Yeah. I work with high schoolers in that capacity. And I would never, ever. That's fucking gross. You know what I mean? Like, are you kidding me? Yeah.

And it's just really a shame to see that when I came into like a 17 year old life who was hypersexual, traumatized, abused herself. And I was able to help her and give her the ability to communicate her needs and set boundaries in relationships and like gain self-esteem because I worked with her for a year as a therapist. You worked with Amy? No, but someone very much like Amy right now. This was like a couple of years ago. I was working as a therapist in a high school and all of my clients were 16 and 17 year old girls. Yeah. Talk.

about a mindfuck there. I had to do a lot of my own work and my own therapist on that too because I'm constantly being triggered. Oh, yeah. But my point is I entered this girl's life and I helped her. My father entered a girl's life and completely made it even worse and blew it up. I had to learn how to see my father for who he really was

accept him for the shit that he was and then create boundaries and cut him out of my life because he turned out to be the common denominator of all my problems. Yeah, he came to see our show. I remember that. That was wild. Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about your relationship with him and how it evolved? Absolutely. Because here's my deal with my life story.

This all happened 30 years ago and has been a social experiment for kind of 30 years. And what I got out of this is because eventually all of this was very traumatic for me. I stuffed my feelings. I never got professional mental health and I just kind of like succeeded and smiled and acted my way through it. Everything's fine. Did a lot of drugs, did a lot of drinking, suffered a lot. Eventually I wound up suicidal and weeks away from killing myself, weeks away from ending my life. How

How old were you at this point? 35 years old. Oh, okay. Wow. This was after I met you, after we were singing and dancing to have a good time on stage. Like life hit me at 35. Yeah. And it was in 2018. And I was just sad, sad.

like depress out. Like I have never experienced depression before. And if I heard other people like, oh, I'm depressed. I'm like, yeah, whatever. Smiley right through it. My life's shitty too. Go take a walk. Right. I didn't understand it until it hit me. And then I really had a mental, emotional, spiritual and physical breakdown. I had continuous racing thoughts, negativity, hopeless. Didn't think I had a place in this world. My life was just like so traumatic, but I didn't understand that. Like I was just my life, you know, like I didn't

no, like trauma wasn't even a word when I stepped into therapy and they're like, oh yeah, that's trauma. I was like, nah, girl, like going to war is trauma. Like I haven't, you know, been on a battlefield, but like I did, I was, it just wasn't in camouflage. You know, like the way the body reacts to those kinds of things is the same. The way the brain reacts to those things is the same. So it was as if I was in a war setting, right?

But it was just not. It was my everyday life. And so the relationship with my dad was complicated because I was completely gaslit by him my whole life. Like, you got to understand, I have had so many conversations with that man. Did you have anything to do with this? No, I would never do that. I swear in your mother's life, I'd never do that. Did you have anything to do with any of this? Did you have a relationship with her? Did you know her? Did you plan this? No, I swear on my life. I swear on my mother's grave, I would never. And so like, a lot of times,

lifetime of me asking him these questions like this is my dad yeah why would I think he's lying to me especially when he's saying things like I swear on my mother's grave I swear on my children's life you know and those kinds of things so it's like what am I gonna do oh okay I'm gonna believe you because you're also putting a roof over my head and you're also kind of putting me through college until the SWAT team came and froze your assets and kind of like doing you know these things and you're still loving me you're still showing up to my play and being a supportive dad so

So it was so complicated for me. That's one of the worst parts of like familial abuse is like, but I love you. Absolutely. And it happens in domestic, you know, relationships all the time and interpartner violence and also sibling violence and like all this kind of stuff. Even if it's not family, you just love somebody, you have a relationship, like, you know, abusive relationships are a thing. It happens all the time. It's just so

complicated and it wasn't until well 2019 and what happened was I was in the middle of doing an ABC 2020 special called Growing Up But A Few Go so it was kind of geared on the case but also like what happened to the child in this situation and so a part of that my parents got involved I interviewed my mom they interviewed my dad and it was an opportunity for my dad to kind of

like, I don't know, do better, be better, whatever, you know? He was at the time in therapy, and I use air quotes for that because turns out sociopaths do not benefit from therapy. It's just a ruse. So he was learning how to say the right things, all that stuff. But my dad's always know how to say the right things. He just doesn't know how to do the right things. And so once I had my mental breakdown, I

And I entered intensive therapy, like IOP, which is an intensive outpatient therapy where I was like getting professional mental health for drugs, alcohol and mental health four hours a day for four days a week for like four months. I was in recovery at that time. I gave up drinking and started doing like the AA thing. And then I just really started to learn how to share my story. So up until then, you'd ask

me oh is that your dad yeah it's my dad don't worry about it we'll move on right and make jokes about it and make the joke move on we're not getting in depth it's a shit story i'm embarrassed by it i hate it it's a sex scandal my parents are known for this bullshit not for curing cancer or like getting a nobel peace prize it was horrible and so i always just tried to like either shut it away or push it down but that really didn't do much for me because she all came out when i had that breakdown

I had to start processing my life. I couldn't just ignore it anymore. And through that, A, I learned how to tell my story, not just my parents' story. I learned how to actually say what I went through and what I experienced and all that. And then I also became aware of just how damaging my father and his life choices truly were. Hmm.

And it's interesting because the first time he even admitted to like a little bit of culpability to it was when I was participating in The Voice, the TV show. Oh, I didn't know you did that. I did. We didn't get picked, so they never aired it. But regardless, I'm being interviewed and my dad's on one side and my mom's on other and they hate each other at this point. Like they're doing this for me. Yeah. Like producers were like, no, we want your parents there. And so I was like, all right. And so.

At one point, my dad said, yeah, I guess I had a little something to do with it, you know, whatever. And that was the first time he even admitted it. And like, I was sitting next to my mom and we just grabbed each other's hands. We're on fucking camera. And so we can't make an expression or anything like, whoa. But that was in what, 2016, 17. So like from then,

there, I'm looking at it with a different set of glasses now. You know, I'm older. I'm older than he was when he made these choices and just holy shit, man. You know, like really what you did was really fucked up and fucked up a lot of people's lives. Not just your immediate family, but your brothers, sisters, things, community, all that stuff. So

once I got into recovery and once I really started figuring out really what happened in my life and what got me to the point of being suicidal, my father turned out to be the common denominator of most of my problems. And the tipping point for me was after that 2020 special, it aired and the night it's airing, I'm getting a barrage of texts from him and other family members too.

that we're not happy about it. They're embarrassed. They don't like it. They don't like the attention that's brought on. Oh, I can't live my life because it brings attention to you. Right. And so I,

I get a message from my dad that's like, you're going to die. I can't believe all the stress you've put me through. I never want to speak to you again, period, ever, period. And girl, when I tell you, my jaw dropped to the floor. Mine just did. My eyes went boing, boing, boing. I said all the stress I put you through. Oh, my God. You never want to speak to me, period.

And I just blocked, blocked, blocked. Good for you. And then from that day forward, I have just continually created boundaries, maintained those boundaries and refused to let him be a part of my life anymore because it's just too painful because the shoe always drops with him. It's always something else. And it's not even related necessarily to the shooting. It's just bad business practices or a fucked up relationship here or a new ex-wife he got over here who turns out to be psycho too. Like it was just...

constant drama with him and constant hypervigilance, constant PTSD, constant anxiety. And I was just like, listen, I can't be having that in my life anymore because that kind of stuff makes me want to kill myself. And so I just had to really shut that boundary down. And he continues to try to get back into my life. And like at this point, he'll send me an email that's like, are you interested in seeing me? And I'll just send him back a meme of like Randy Jackson from American Idol. It's going to be a no from me, dog.

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But I have sent also very poignant emails of like, let me explain to you why I choose to no longer have a relationship with you. And we'll provide a list of like 45 different things throughout my life that are like beyond, beyond, you know? And so I'm just like, nah, nah, bro. And since then, I've been thriving. Since then, I'm in the healing era. She's almost out of the healing era. Since then, I'm thriving.

Back to school, I got a master's degree in clinical psychology. I started working as a therapist. Since then, I am now in a PhD program studying media psychology, focusing on the impact of the true crime genre and how that affects victims of crimes and their families. And it's a trip because I'm reading...

books. I have them right here about my parents and what happened and like all this stuff. And so I'm doing this now as a way to create psychological safety in the genre of true crime from best practices to how to interview the pre-production stage during filming post-production stage, how to set the scene, script consultations, like just mental health media services. I put

on-set liaison for the talent for the crime victim who's being interviewed for the first time, who is scared out of their mind and already anxious and have already dealt with being a victim of a crime, you know, and like things like that. And it's just an interesting kind of full circle moment for me taking my pain and turning it into purpose. It's awful, obviously.

that you had to go through this. And it's so beautiful that you're finding a way to make something of it. And I'm sure this is not the way that you saw your life going. But in some ways, it's interesting that you were able to mix your entertainment career goals, right, with this pain and trauma that happened and sort of like take this thing that was horrible and rotten and kind of turn it into something not only beautiful, but like useful.

Right. Because it needs to happen. Because there's people that are being traumatized all the time with reality TV and true crime now. Like, it's just, we're turning and burning these people. And so there's no resources for these people to get help. You know, a lot of people are turning to drugs, alcohol, suicide, things like that. So this is somewhere where I feel like I'm needed. And like, maybe all of this happened. I feel very much called to do this. I feel very much this is my purpose. Like, in that healing era, I really...

grew my faith bone and I've really become connected to the universe and like what am I doing here what's the point what's the purpose you know I think coming from being suicidal and purposeless that was a big thing for me it's like I needed to find my purpose and I really think that this is it and I do believe our purpose has changed throughout life this isn't the only purpose I got but this is the one I should be doing now and I feel very much aligned with that and like loving it like conducting research girl I'm like in statistics girl I'm doing math like

My sister's on a similar path. She hasn't gotten her master's or her PhD, but she's very much in the realm of victim support. She's connected very much with like the Amish and Bruderhof communities and helping the women who are trying to escape those communities and showing up at their trials. And sometimes she's the only one on their side of the court, you know, because they get effectively shut out of society if they come forward. Right. And she's also very much about like,

listen, if we're going to make a movie out of this or a documentary or whatever, like you have to have support there for this person because you are re-traumatizing them by having them pick at the scab. Right. And that's something too I want to advocate for and provide services for. As a licensed therapist, I want to be that person to provide the aftercare for these people. Not only because I've lived it, but I also have the license to do it. And it's not happening. It's kind of happening in the UK at

I think there are some more psychological safety measures happening overseas, but like not in America. What do you do? So that's kind of why I want to create legislation to kind of make that a thing. Like if you're going to make a story about someone and especially if you're interviewing those people,

Yeah. And like exposing them to that re-traumatization, then you need to provide some aftercare for them. You need to give them like six sessions with a therapist. Yes. Or something because that's not happening. They'll give you a psych evaluation before you participate to make sure you can handle it and you're not a liability and going to sue their ass afterwards. But they're not doing anything for you afterwards. And I know that to be true because it's happened to me hundreds of times. Yeah. Yeah.

I have been left in a room after I gave an interview and like, oh, I guess I'll walk myself out. Oh my God. ABC studio. Thank you. Okay. You know, things like that. And so there's a lot of factors at play where there's just some minor tweaks just to make the experience a little bit better. Make your content. I love true crime. I sit there and watch this shit all the time. Yeah.

But it's traumatizing the people at the center of the story. And that's not fair because they've already been traumatized. That's where we're telling their story. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's just minor tweaks that can be made. It's just unfortunately, some of these tweaks cost money and the industry doesn't want to spend it.

Right. Making money hand over fist and not wanting to fork over any of it. I'd love to know about your mom and her journey and where she is now. Absolutely. Well, my mother is an angel. I am blessed to still have her on this planet and then also have an amazing relationship with her. She will always say, she goes, oh, I'm playing with the house money. Yeah.

She very well much knows how lucky she is to be alive. I mean, she took a bullet to the right side of her face within a 10 foot range of someone pointing a gun at her head. And then not only survived like that and like the actual injuries that occurred from being shot in the face, paralysis, her esophagus doesn't work. She has one carotid artery now. So now she has like heart problems and circulation issues and like all that kind of stuff. And it's

been interesting to see her deal with that side of things in regards to like the physical part of being a gun violence victim. And that's been 30 years right now. So I've also been privy to that, you know, a part of this journey, I don't think people realize too, is like every time she has to get a surgery or a follow-up procedure or something like that, I'm the one that helps her. So I'm the one changing the bandages. I'm the one dealing with the blood tubes and like the medical stuff. And it's like, honey, I like to sing and dance. I'm a no-brainer.

the medical profession but like you know that's a big component of this as well and so not only the physical stuff has she had to deal with for the past 30 years I mean she was 37 years old when she was shot and then this was her life for the remainder of her life she's 70 now so just imagine that I mean I'm 41 that's a few years ago for me I can't even imagine that starting now for me

Like, I've already been dealing with it. Maybe that's why I'm tired. It's just a lot. And so that part was, I mean, tragic enough, right? And then to add on to her story, you have this emotionally abusive, narcissistic, antisocial personality husband who continues to make poor choices for in perpetuity up until this day that has resulted in major heartache, police intervention. I mean, I think I referenced earlier, I was in a SWAT team raid when I was in college because my dad was doing auto insurance fraud. So like-

It was always something to deal with. And for my mom, she didn't do anything to deserve any of this. She fell in love with the wrong guy and just tried to keep her marriage for the sake of her children. And it completely blew up in literally her face. You know, dealing then with the fame part of it.

part of it and like the exploitation part of it like she was just a normal person right and now all of a sudden she is this entity this pop culture true crime phenomenon icon and she even the other day it was interesting she said you know in a way I'm I'm like immortal because even when I die yeah people will still be able to read about me and look me up and my legacy is still there and

Now in her later years, that's really what's important to her is her legacy and her own character arc amongst this story. Because my dad and Amy are still trash. They've been trash from the beginning, right? But what my mother has done with this tragedy is really turned it into triumph by advocating for women...

Or men or anybody, non-binary, whatever, it doesn't matter. People can be involved with sociopaths and it can ruin your life. So she wrote a book about that and has really been an advocate for that. She also started the Facial Paralysis Institute with Dr. Aziz today. So, so many people now are getting help that have Bell's palsy, tumors that experience facial differences and all that because she started that.

you know, which is beautiful and amazing. She did public speaking for a long time. She goes on shows to advocate what it's like to be a victim of gun violence, what it's like to be a victim of emotional abuse, to be gaslit your whole life, like all that kind of stuff. Addiction. I mean, she's dealt with addiction too because of all the pain meds they put her on back in the day. Oh God, yeah, yeah. Had to go to rehab and do all that. So she's really lived quite a life, even in her, you know, adult years. So now...

She's chilling, right? She's almost 70. She loves to go to the gym. She takes care of herself. She makes juices in the morning with like spinach and like cayenne pepper and like all that stuff. And she just really is enjoying her peaceful life. And it's great because her and I actually live together. We've been living together for the past like five or six years. Oh,

She had a bit of a health scare and it just made me feel better to kind of be able to help her. I don't have kids. I don't have a family. I don't have a significant other. So it was important for me to be able to help her as well. And in that time, I mean, honestly, when it first happened, I was like, oh God, here I am like 36 or seven years old, pretty much the same age.

And here I am moving back in with my mother, you know, like all that stuff. But it actually turned out to be one of the biggest blessings of my life so far. You know, when she was shot, I was nine years old and she became this entity. And as much as she came to my basketball games and drove me to dance class and stuff like that,

It was hard for her to be present in my life and teach me life lessons on how to balance a checkbook or how to wear deodorant. And the other day we were talking about, you know, the experience of buying my first training bra and how he wanted to be there, but couldn't because of the mob scene of anytime we went in public, people would go up to her and make a big fuss. And I was already embarrassed about getting a training bra, you know? And so she sent my godmother to do that with me. She felt robbed of that experience. She saw that as a milestone of her and her daughter. And so it's even like,

little things like that that her and I really missed out on. It's amazing to think about the aftermath of the event, right, of the true crime thing that we're talking about. And for us, for true crime content creators, it's like we write about it, we read it, and then we've moved on. It's important to remember that, like, these are real people in the stories who can't just move on. And even if we want to move on, like, for me, I wanted to move on. I never want to look at this shit again.

And I just wanted to stuff this in a nice little box and pretend that this was not my history and this is not my story. And like, I'm someone different. And over the years doing that just ruined my own mental health. And I had to learn how to kind of synthesize the two. I had to learn how to embrace that part of me and make it my own. You know, it's an everyday thing.

for me. And like you said, it doesn't go away. And so that's the struggle is learning how to deal with it. Cause it's always going to be there kind of a thing. It's a lesson in acceptance basically, you know, cause avoiding it just made it worse. And so finding a way to accept it and making it my own and hers too. I mean, you know, my mom had no say in what happened to her ever, you know? And so she's just had to kind of like, hold on, you're the right person.

Make what she can with it. But it's really wonderful to see what she has done with it and like her character arc and the legacy that she's going to leave behind is a good one. Yeah. Which is important. And that kind of is what has inspired me to do what I'm doing now. So seeing how heavily exploited she was has always pissed me off, you know, from the get go.

From the jump. I too have had my own experiences of exploitation, whether that's people telling the story without our consent or like I've done interviews before and then they'll take my interview and chop it up into pieces that I didn't say that. I didn't say that. If you want me to say that, tell me, I'll give you the line. Yeah.

Don't create your own dialogue because I didn't give it to you in my initial interview. Just like things like that. There was one time I was doing a production, a big one, and I had gotten hair and makeup done looking fabulous. I mean, your girl was ready for the pageant. I was confident. I was like, we're going to slay this. I was supposed to be talking like directly to the camera, like a YouTuber. And this was in 2018 when ABC News wasn't doing that. Basically working for them for free. Yeah. But that's a whole other story. But I remember

to get out of hair and makeup and like the main male producer goes ooh can we make her less pretty we want to make her relatable they sent me back into the hair and makeup room took off my lashes dumped down my hair like oh my god I feel for letting them even do that what does it even mean get the fuck out of here yeah but it was just I wasn't there yet now I'd be like get the fuck out of here you're tripping roll camera yeah and so seeing all

And then seeing now the mental health part of it and how much I suffered, seeing my mom suffer for depression, suicidal ideation, anxiety, PTSD, like...

Like a lot of that came from the constant triggering in mainstream media. Right. You know, things like watching Adam's Family Values and then all of a sudden Amy Fisher pops up on the screen or enjoying How I Met Your Mother and then they make a Buttafuoco joke or watching Friends and then they talk about you can't name your kid Joey because of Joey Buttafuoco or just like it's always popping up and I'm never prepared for that. That causes a lot of issues. Yeah. Shame, embarrassment, anxiety. I mean, all of it. Right. And so like, I know.

at this point in life, I am not the only person to be experiencing this. So like in the early 90s, it felt very much like I was the only person really experiencing that. I felt like it was me and like OJ Simpson's kids, but I didn't have access to them and we couldn't use each other for support back then.

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being constantly triggered, being constantly exploited. Like there's so many people now that are dealing with that in regards to reality television and true crime. I'm putting those kind of together under one umbrella because you're dealing with real people and their real identity, but you're making this fictionalized version of them for public consumption. And like that is where problems happen in regards to

who am I on this planet? What is my identity? What is my social role? Can I go out and get a job at Trader Joe's with this identity now? Things like that. What happens when the media puts us in victim roles or villain roles or girl next door roles or the underdog? And like, these are permanent situations

social roles that we are being placed into especially now with the internet right because you google that name and that's there forever no matter how much work they have either done before or after to be different from that definition of themselves yeah so for me what I'm doing now is I after a good old mental breakdown at 35 years old and and then taking the time to heal and understand what's

Yeah. Yeah.

like, whoa, dude, there's something here. Right. And I know I'm not the only person to deal with that. And now that we live in the world where there's so many reality shows and so many true crime productions, there are hundreds of people like me who are suffering. And

and killing themselves. Since 2019, I read an article, there was 38 suicides just on reality television contestants alone. And since then, there's been at least four or five, one including a man from the Real Housewives of Potomac from 2024, like a few weeks ago in November. So it's like, this is a thing. People are suffering. When I see something like that,

I get pissed enough to do something about it. And so that's why I decided to go back to school again. And now I'm in a PhD program and I am focusing on media psychology. My like area of expertise is the genre of true crime. What is it? How does it affect people, places, things? How does it affect your mental health? How does it affect your ability to work, your professional life, your social life, your reputation? I'm just investigating all of that. What does it do?

genre of media due to victims of crime in their family and honestly I'm learning so much and it just is empowering me to make a change and so like whether that's through legislation whether that's through scientific research like the PhD program I'm in honey is like science and like research and statistics and like your girl let's not forget she sings and dances right it's

I'm learning a whole new language. Yeah. I'm capable. My mentors, my advisors, my teachers are like really smart people with like doctor, you know, in their name. But they're not looking at me like I'm an idiot and they're not telling me, oh, honey, you're in the wrong place. Like everyone I talk to is like, holy shit, girl, what are you doing? Oh, my God. Wait, what? Like when I tell people, yeah, I mean, I'm getting a PhD right now and I'm focusing on how the true crime genre affects, you know, victims of crime in their families. People's mouths drop because

because they know my personal history too. I'm coming for you. You know, I've seen my parents get hurt, myself get hurt, other people that I know in the true crime genre and reality TV getting hurt and I'm just like, all right, no, I'm done. I feel very much Elle Woods legally blonde. I'm just like, what? But like, it is what we're figuring.

out you know and like i'm gonna have my experience published in journals scientific journals i'm going to create the scientific evidence and the data that like practices and true crime what you're doing is hurting people and killing people at the end of the day by making them want to die by suicide themselves

Right. I just feel like that's my purpose. That's my calling, you know, and a part of that is also educating others. So creating presentations on ethical guidelines in the genre of true crime and reality television, giving presentations, trainings, workshops to media professionals, content creators, editors, producers, all that kind of stuff, and just kind of

Yeah.

the lived experience and now I have the knowledge. So like, come for me. What kinds of things would you like to see change on true crime and reality sets to make things better for the victims and the families and the survivors? Great question. There's a few parts to that. So the first one

is just like brushing up on ethics. Whether on set or off, ethical guidelines exist. There are plenty of ethical guidelines out there for journalists, for content creators. Like that's not the problem. It's following through with those ethics. That's the problem. Many content creators, media companies, they're in this to make money. They're in it to make money.

I was like, no, it's pretty much money. And so making money means sex sells, drugs, rock and roll, sensationalism. And so a lot of times those ethics...

although they may come up in the room, they go, yeah, but, and they sweep them aside. This is kind of where I want legislation to come in. I feel like we need a governing board to make sure people are like going with ethical choices. So like that's the grandiose I would love to see is some sort of like ethical board guideline for reality TV and true crime. So until we get to that, I think even just something is having an onset advocate can go a long way.

Like a mental health professional like me who also has experience in TV production. And to make sure everyone's just, you know...

Not being assholes. It's not necessarily to hinder the creative process or make your production shit. It's just to make sure everyone's safe psychologically. And that includes people like you who are creating the content because y'all also are affected psychologically about stuff. You even said earlier, you're like, sometimes I feel guilty because I'm doing this. Oh God, yeah. If you're doing things right, no one would feel guilty. Right. And so it's like, how do we get that going? In my own experience, when I've given interviews on set and things like that,

It's hard to vocalize and advocate for yourself when you're in it. And this is even me who's like vocal as fuck and be like, nah, you can't do that. It's hard. And so having someone there to be that middle person can really go a long way and just be helpful. I know I've had to fight to bring my own friends and family members onto sets with me for that. Now they weren't getting paid. These people deserve to get paid. But just to have someone protect me and say, hey, was that kind of fun?

fucked up that was kind of fucked up oh absolutely well I think like on set that can go a long way is having an on set advocate and then just some sort of like ethical make sure everybody's doing a right supervisor yeah because at the end of the day

Sorry, they might be the bad guy, but guess what? People are going to be protected. Sure. And that's all I care about. I don't care about the ratings. I care about this person's actual life that you are getting ratings from, that you're ruining. And so I also think another protection that could be put in place is offering some sort of aftercare, especially if you're taking these people and you're flying them out and they're taking time out of their life to do things like this and sit in front of a camera and go to these places and be re-traumatized. Yeah.

You should hook them up afterwards with some, whether it's a spa day or a fucking gift card to Starbucks or therapy sessions for three months to decompress whatever you went through. That can go a long way because a lot of times, and I'm stopping from my own personal experience, I have a chewed up and spit out. Thank you.

Bye. And then nothing. And I feel very taken advantage of, used. And then that makes me feel like shit. And then that makes me want to go drink and do drugs and all the bad things. Right. And so it's like, if we just had some sort of like fucking fruit basket, I don't know. Just so bad.

way it really can't even donating to victims rights funds in these people's memory even if five bucks ten bucks it doesn't matter you're keeping these people's memory alive in a good way i mean that resonates with me because the way my show works you know i don't usually interview people this is like a special bonus i don't usually interview the victims and survivors for the episode

I rely on everything that's already been published, right? And I try to get a sort of a wide array of information as I can. And especially if something is an older case, like what happened with your family, like, you know, there's going to be newer takes.

that say Amy was a child and she whatever. And I will cover that. Right. I will say, like, here's this one perspective and still try to be as respectful as I can to the actual survivors in the story. And since my turnaround time is so quick, I was going to say, like, what is something that somebody like I can do short of like reaching out to all of the survivors of the story and saying, because I'll get mired down.

Right. Right. And especially since I don't share my scripts ahead of time for ethical, you know, for journalistic purposes. But knowing that like donating to a survivor's fund or a victim's advocacy group or something like that is comforting. Yeah.

Yeah, I think it can go a long way, you know, and especially if the people are still around and it's not hard to get a hold of them. Yeah. I would love it if someone dropped a hundred bucks in my Venmo for fun. Yeah. Okay. I'll take it. Yeah. I'll take it. Some people might be offended by that and that's okay too. I know I wouldn't. I'm never going to say no to free money. Well, actually I would. I'm not that much like my father, but, um,

A long way. And I think even just making a donation to a victim's fund in the name of the victims that you're speaking about, it's a small amount that keeps their legacy alive. And, you know, other people see that. Yeah. It helps clear your conscience. And, you know, that's what you can do. Interesting. I suppose I could also say it at the end of the episode, like if you're interested in supporting. Yeah. Yeah.

And even providing some resources for your audience can go a long way too. Like for other content creators that may be listening to your episodes, just like maybe directing them to the officeforthevictimsofcrime.org. And then they have like resources on how to deal with the media, on how to yourself as a content creator, ethical guidelines. There's so many. There's National Crime Victims Rights Resource Guides. Apparently, if you're a victim of crime, there's a resource guide for you on how to handle media online.

on organizations you can go to to receive funding. Like in Los Angeles, we have a victim's fund, I believe, that a lot of people don't realize. Like people that are a victim of a crime, you can get therapy services paid for by the state. Statistically speaking, victims of crime experience levels of poverty...

at a higher rate than others, levels of substance abuse, eating disorders, mental health issues. And those things cost money. Saturday Night Live has never paid for my therapy bill. I did, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so even just like connecting people to resources can be a really powerful thing. There's International Women's Media Foundation. There's the Reporters Without Borders. I'm like reading off a list right here. There's the International News Safety Institute. DART Center for Journalism is a great resource on how to talk to people that experience trauma.

how to talk to children, like all that kind of stuff. And I think a

think a governing board can go back to, well, maybe not old podcasts because it's like grandfathered in or whatever. But if this board listens to your podcast, guess who's getting fined? Right. Yeah. So figure your shit out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like if you're going to hit people, listen, we are in a capitalistic society. If we're going to get people to change, we got to do it from their pocketbook. And so if the fear of getting fined for choosing to go against ethical guidelines is what keeps you in line, then OK. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'll see you at Capitol Hill. Yeah, money talks, money talks for sure. Okay, this was so amazing, Jess. Thank you so, so much for doing this. I feel so honored to know you and I'm so fortunate that our paths...

crossed in such a bizarre way. And I'm glad you're in my life. And I'm glad that you have taken this thing that could have really, that did derail you for quite some time and really turned it into your superpower. It's incredible. Thanks, babe. I really appreciate that. Awesome. Thank you so, so much. Go have a wonderful rest of your day. I'm in finals week, girl. I get all A's this semester. I'm writing papers and I'm in the thick of it. All right. Get those statistics in. It's so hard.

Who wants to tutor me for free? Anybody out there? I bet you somebody will too. Anybody out there, help me. All right. I love you so much. I love you too. Thank you so much. All right, babe. Bye. Bye. Next time on Strange and Unexplained.

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