CM 277: Emily Austin on a Recipe for Happiness
53:35 Share

For epicurus is like we need a strategy for figuring out our values, figure you out how to manifest them in our daily lives, and then also how to have those values without making ourselves unhappy.

Welcome to curious mize at work. I'm your host, gale Allen. When we're looking for insight on how to make friends, manager our anxiety or just live a happy your life, we rarely look to the past. Instead, we tend to focus on what today's thinkers have to say.

But what of the recipe for happiness lies in the past, specifically the two thousand year old past? What if the ancient writings of greek philosopher epicurus hold some of the answers? That's what mother day philosophers Emily Austin argues in her book living for pleasure.

And but carian guide to life, SHE teaches us what eba curious really thought about pleasure, and why he bated a corner stone of his life. He also points out the advantages of an epic ian mindset over a stoic one. Emmy's book is proof that we still have much to learn for our work and our life from the ancient greek philosophers, especially epicurus.

Before we start one quick ask, if you like the podcast, please take a moment to leave a rating on itunes or whatever you subscribe. Your feedbacks, ines, a strong signal to people looking for their next podcast. And now here's my interview with ma Austin. Emily Austin, welcome to the podcast. IT is great to have you on.

Thanks for happy me. Happy to be here.

I curious is the ancient greek philosopher we associate with pleasure. And for most of us, that association can seem frivolous, maybe even indulgent. Your book helps us see that there is so much more depth than nuance to his take on pleasure. Talk about the kind of pleasure he valued and why IT matters today.

This really interesting that so epoca us is known popularly, if he's known at all uh as uh a kind of footy, actually. So there's a huge internet repository of recipes. It's called epicurious stop come and there are beers and after epitope ous and and other fancy grocery store in paris have epic ious name on them and and so we do sort of associate him with bodily pleasures and excess, which is IT is unfortunate because that's very much not his a his commitment. In fact, at the time, he said he was already been misunderstood as a being a sort of A A rapet denise.

But then there's been also this academic impulse to try the rescue epoca us from this raphel is by making him almost like a headless and name only so that he's only interested in, you know, pairing back your pleasures to the ones that can be satisfied and not pursuing any kinds of indulgences. And and so sort of a kind of a set tis m so IT becomes a strange that he's a hidden ness and so I think really the the true answer is somewhere in the middle which is that he thinks um we can live very happy lives if we focus on achieving the objects of the desires that are most important for our well being and he thinks that having those satisfied and and recognizing them as being satisfied, that is actually the highest pleasures. It's kind of strong view of pleasure and some things because he thinks the highest pleasures is kind of appreciating the absence of need or uh, the absence of pain but other pleasures, the ones that we think of, uh, those he thinks are really worth appreciating if they don't cause you anxiety or pain.

Uh and so there are there's a lot of room and epic ism for kind of minor luxuries and even major and dolphins is occasionally if you have the right towards them. But he does think there are a lot of pleasures that we just shouldn't pursue. Um and so the kinds of pleasure that we often think of as the sorts of pleasures that that just lead to a life in the gutter or the end of all your relationships epicure thinks those are just you just didn't pursue them strategically will make your life miserable and IT will lead to the kind of dissatisfaction that at odds with trinity, the tricity that he thinks we're all aiming for.

Emily talk, you brought this up for ever curious. The best pleasure is the absence of anxiety. What does he mean?

He sometimes Better known among philosophers as developing IT really ahead of his time, natural science. H and so one thing about him is he does take us to be um primarily animals, uh, like other animals. And since other animals are headers to pursue pleasure and avoid pain, so do we.

But we have these rich cognitive capacities that come from being human beings and and one of those is a sense of ourselves in time, so that we have a past in the present and the future, and so we can deliberate about what to expect. And one of those things, for instance, is like we can expect to die, and we have an awareness of that. And so his conception of anxiety is really very rich.

So we will go from everything to sort of the anxious you might have about where your next meal is going to come from, to the anxious you might have about win in how you might die. And so he thinks these uh anxieties, uh, that are both just fundamental to being an animal of a basic animals, or and fundamental to be in a human being with these extra capacity. They all work against this fundamental tranquility he thinks we we want.

And so he kind of developed this whole system to target all of those different anxieties. And some of them are like, strategically, what you should pursue. And some some of them are like arguments that death isn't bad.

So he has this kind of, uh, argumentation tool kit. Some of the things are practical advice, some of the relational advice, some of that is just hard nosed pho sophy about the nature of the soul. And what happens when we die epicurious .

grounded is ethics in the assumption that we want to be happy. So we focused his efforts on how best to achieve that. Yet his language around happiness is very different from ours, and IT involves distinguishing between subjective versus objective accounts of happiness. What is he talking about?

We tend to think that morality and happiness are often directly at odds, but just sort of different domains, right? So morality has no interest in making you happy and in fact, many people think that that will make you unhappy and so the fact of the ancient greeks thought that the aim of ethics was well being and that um they almost univerSally agreed that virtuous activity and self cultivation was necessary for happiness is just a strange you because we tend to think, oh yes, you could be can be radically vicious you just imagine your worst possible person and that person say, i'm happy and we say, oh, I guess they're happy right and and the I guess the ancient greek physical thought that just like not possible so they developed a lot of arguments to support this IT wasn't just question back.

They said, hey, let me give you in a case for why that horribly unjust person is in fact, miserable. But they definitely didn't think these topics came apart. And they thought ethics was, in fact, the study of well being. It's just, you can be wrong about well being. You can think you have IT and be wrong.

Every curis have a list of happiness markers or standards and wrote about how the lack of them can indicate, quote, manifestations of anxiety. What are some of the things on this list? And how did he see them countering our anxiety?

yes. So some of them, I think, just make total sense to us. One of the things that's really nice of our epic by comparison to the stoics, who are his head head competitors at the time, is that he does think some things are really necessary just to get rid of our bodily troubles are our bodily pain um and so we do need food and and drink and and medicine, and those are now those are things we we just really have to.

And if you don't have them, it's it's just really difficult to be happy. But but then you might have this idea that hope this that makes IT really easy, right? So I can just like buy some stuff, have enough money for food and i'll be set.

But one of the things is interesting about a curous as he thinks there are other things that are necessary for happiness, sort of like if you don't have them as as you kind of put in your in trouble and and one of them is friends and h as you know, as I think it's come up, uh, a number of your guest have discussed the fact that amErica and kind of friendship crisis, or a lonely ess crisis, and so in amErica is also a very wealthy country. And to the idea that all of these people who are doing so well with respect to their material needs can be missing this fundamental thing that makes life good and happy and secure um that's a real problem. So uh he thinks that you can really do with that friends.

And then one of the weird ones for ham, although I agree with him on IT, is that he thinks really need kind of a certain kind of fundamental understanding of the nature of the world and of human beings. So if you have for ham a very superstitious view of the world, you are jack science, then you're going to have A A host of anxiety, some of them like a religious or spiritual nature, but also just kind of a practical inability to pursue your own well being in rate. If you have a completely bizarre view of how medicine works instance, then it's in the long run, it's not gonna out for you.

And so he thinks that another thing you really need is to just grapple with the truths of science, and that people who reject that are refuse to do that are actually gonna. If they're not immediately anxious, we're going to end up in either practical or sort of existence. Al, anxiety.

stoicism, you talked about IT is a physical y we often hear about today. If we want to understand where epca anim stands in relation to IT, there's something called the cradle argument to help us do that. Can you explain what that is?

Yeah, that's great. So it's true. Theism has become sort of a cottage industry. And uh, that's always sort of perplex me. And so I teach joyce m. And my students were really excited by the possibility that I would write this book because epoca ism didn't seem to have a an advocate and yet stocks has many a advocates.

And so um one way to get at this difference, which you're talking about is a quite argument and this is just kind of a weird artifact of both of them. They thought that if you looked at infants in their sort of, they are uncorrupted, fresh from the woods state, you know, you could see what human beings want to reflectively. And so the um the epicurean will look, if you look at a kid, what does IT want IT IT wants to be comforted.

He wants to we want to make IT hope IT not cry and feel secure. And and we know that in those first those first formative months that they need somebody there all the time, like just making sure other needs are met. That their anie as are calmed.

And and so he thinks that that that is a feeling we want. And then from there we can build all these other pleasures. But that fundamental sense of security is, is, is crucial. And then you know that when you when you get rid of those societies and enjoys are possible. And so do you think he thinks, you know, there are other reasons to think that he's hideous.

But that's one of the master's like, you know, look at a kid and the stokes stokes view is is a bit mysterious and really ensure why they offered a creative argument because they say that the infant loves every part of itself and seeks to protect IT. And I just haven't seen that in children. I mean, I usually they don't even know that all the parts are there.

So right later, they're like all that's my hand, I didn't know that was my hand and and then that you know they tried to roll off the bed and stick their hands and things and and so I was just think I I didn't really understand the stoic argument but IT doesn't get that and me the the big difference between the two uh comes in sort of the role of virtue in their account of happiness and then sort of what they take to be good um and that that leads to these questions about um what's valuable and what we need and then more importantly, sort of how we should respond when we lose those things or gain them. So for the stoics um especially the so sixth author was one good right it's only one good thing and it's virtue and only one bad thing in advice. And so that means all these other things you might count as good like you know your kids in their survival or a good job those sorts of things are are not actually good.

They call them in different. And so as long as you have virtue for them, you have what you need for happiness and you don't need anything else. And then nothing else contributes to IT as a really radical view.

And that's what allows them, among other things, to say things like when your child dies, it's not bad because they don't think your child is good, right? So it's kind of to me and our theory to be so popular these days. But IT is very popular.

And so that evacuees also think virtue is necessary for helping us. But they think that virtue is good because IT produces this um tranquil state, this uh um kind of a absence of anxiety and that we can't get IT without virtue. So you can't be vicious and have that date. But it's not the only good thing, right? Lots of other things are good as well.

How can direct versus indirect pursuit of pleasure explain the unpleasant things that we will do to gain longer term pleasure and happiness? And how does this align with that precarious philosophy of pleasure?

I mean, so I don't know why, but some people, I think just because they want to be unsuitable to heat in this, like if if you're pursuing pleasure, then you'll just eat cake all day or you know i'm not sure exactly what they think, but you imagine the worst possible indulge like that all you do. And epic ious, of course, because he thinks are beans in time. Who can think about our past and predict our future?

We know that if we eat cake all day, uh, that will not turn out well um and so we know we know that if we want us achieve this state, that requires getting a lot of stuff like making sure we have food but also have friends and learn some stuff and near some of those things especially can be pleasant, but some of them are are not always pleasant, right? So if we want to be healthy, we have to work out uh and if we want to you know have friends, sometimes we have to stop what we're doing and go assist them. And that might seem like least a minor inconvenience.

And so to get this day IT doesn't mean we won't ever in convenience ourselves or we won't ever have to do things that are painful. But he thinks that you you pursue those things because they produce this uh, state, either produced or preserve this a state of tranquility. And so it's really about present, uh, pursuit of a choice among all the things that you could do in life.

And so that's why I actually, evc says that predation is more important than philosophy, which you knows a philosopher and like is not really true. And then I think yes, IT is actually IT is more important than physical. Y so he he thinks that we know you will pass up pleasures if they cause a lot of pain and will um choose pain if they produce a lot of pleasure.

It's it's a kind of calculus um and so that means that you we will do things that are inconvenient like you listen to our spouse complaint about work for a ah you know whatever IT is that you change diapers or watch uh television shows you don't like because your your friend really likes them um so he he thinks that um will do that and that's actually I guess you use the term direction interaction and you can just think of as sort of like a eating cake all day indirect as that sounds really good, I know well. So this is other thing is that no, I really do always want to push back on this idea that apps was opposed to pleasure. I don't know why, but people want him to be anesthetic.

And so sometimes actually the direct pleasure is the best, right? Because IT has IT has no bad effects. Uh, it's not hard. It's just right there and ready to be taken and and those things are are joyful and and good. So I I don't want you to think that like everything is indirect, something just like super direct, just that's really great, do IT. Um but you're doing that because it's a kind of harmless pleasure, is easy to achieve and it's enriches life and is joyful. So yes, the main thing, the reason you have to have the index CT stuff is to explain why the epicurean will do things that are inconvenient or painful ah, because IT produces A A Better pleasure or sustained, this really valuable state when I feel .

like that long term view is connected to something else you write about, which is epicures believe that we need a strategy for happiness, that it's not simply about choosing the fast, the easily accessible.

Talk a little bit about this because I think there's something about saying a strategy for happiness that reminded me of reflecting becoming an adult, that I was responsible for making choices about how to spend my leisure time in order to be a happy person, right? And I think there comes this point, your life, you start to realize you kind of responsible for your happiness, not all of IT, but a lot of IT. And so what choices are you going to make for the kind of happiness you want to have?

Yeah and I think oddly, ly, we're just you would think that you know everybody would be encouraged to sit down and think hard about this or that we would even sit down and think hard about IT, but we get so busy that we don't. And so the worry, I think, for ever curation for all of us, like our great fears that will reach some age and realized we mess IT all.

Or you know that the values that we we spouse and the things we care about, we have done a very bad job of building into our lives. So so let me see in the book is like I would be really worried about anyone who said, I don't care whether I have friends and so most of us want friends. And so the real question is I why don't we have them? Or if we have them, why don't we spend enough time with them or um and and it's basically because we just don't make our daily decisions well.

And so there are daily decisions. And then of course, the ones that through the big picture decisions, I K I going to have children and or what is my career gonna look like? Or, you know, uh, how do I express my values in, uh, you know, my political engagement? So all of these are big picture questions.

And and for epic, as he thinks that they they require new calculation about what matters and uh also you having the right amount of investment in those things, right? So it's like sometimes we can say, oh, I really want this, but then we build our happiness around IT, right? And and we just make ourselves more anxious.

And so for epicure is like we need a strategy for figuring out our values, figuring out how to manifest them in our daily lives and then also how to have those values without making ourselves unhappy. Um and that's A I see it's a sort of a balancing act that's not terribly easy, right to think I care about this and IT IT IT matters, but my happiness doesn't depend on that. I I still have everything I need. And so for him, there is a lot of a lot of that planning has to do with with those things, right? The things that are not part of your necessary desires, but are the rest of life went to pursue and how to pursue them?

Well, IT seems like, again, we may have thought, if we think at all about up a curous, but if we think about up a curous, our stereotypes, this headers, this pleasure seeker, and there's so much more long term thinking there just about what you're going to prioritize and why. And I just I just so I was so refreshing as I was reading your book to see that like, no, no, this person was not thinking at the surface. This person was thinking very deeply and was using this term pleasure in such a different way from how we think about IT and talk about IT today.

Yeah and I mean, I guess so one thing that's kind of interesting about epicurus, right, because it's true that he thinks you know plan for the future um but he doesn't want you to have anxiety about the future, right? So because that would be um well that would be undermining your tinkle state um and so he has this balancing act between thinking, you know like doni kick all day because tomorrow that won't feel good uh and also thinking you know don't don't delay your happiness until tomorrow.

Don't I get too invested in the success of a project in the future because you might not be around for IT? And so he both wants you to actually feel like you have enough now, that you've lived a life that's good and you have what you need now and that you can appreciate IT. And also, you know should you have the future that you are, you know arranged your life, uh, in a way that will keep you feeling. 4 filled and uh have you have a sense of joy and meaning in your life？ So it's true that he cares about the future, but he also I just want to make clear that he doesn't want you to have anxiety about the future and that that's um that's one of the things that some people have a objected to a sort of like how is that possible?

Well, let's do a deeper dive on some of the things that can cause the kinds of anxiety ea curious rights about forever curious our desires hold the key to our lack of tranquility. And he explains that they fall into three categories. Can you tell us what those categories are and maybe how to recognize them?

Epicurus was not a great Price stylist. A, and he used very a dense terminology sometimes. So he divided desires into three categories that are really difficult to say and write over and over again. But his original categories were the natural and necessary, the natural and unnecessary, and the unnatural and unnecessary. So now that you heard that, because i'm a good scholar, I want to tell you that those were his words um in the book I decided they need different labels and so there are the necessary desires, the extravagant desires and that's because that's how kind of actors talks about them and then what I call the rosie desires and so the necessary, desired, you are the ones that we talked about earlier, right? The things that you have to have in order to be happy.

And he thinks those are things that you need essentially sometimes just to stay alive or for the body to be free from troubles or as as he kind of almost like circularly says that in order to be happy and those are things like in food and water and shelter, but also friends and um this fundamental understanding of science and sort of a stable oishi political community or front group. And then there's just like really interesting category of extravagances, right? And and IT seems like evocative, thinks those are kind of fancy volumes of the necessary ones, right? Be a nicer meal or um maybe even just like a Better career, right, or a Better understanding of science or i'm just through nicer pleasures.

And here he thinks they are kind of adult ancel. You should enjoy them when they come along, but you shouldn't think they're necessary right without a big mistake because then you'll you'll feel pain if you don't get them at anxiety a about me, whether you'll get them and in pain at their laws. And so these are kind of harmless pleasures um the good that they're around, but you shouldn't think there your happiness depends on them.

And then there are these corrosive pleasures and and here actually the objects are the things the desires are for corrosive desires for things that um sometimes it's not so much that you want IT, but that you want a IT without limit, right? So you more and more of that. And so there is, you know this idea.

Sometimes people say like you can never have too much money or you can never live too long or you can never you know have too many friends or and so the idea is that these these desires, since always more and more to be had, can never be satisfied. Um and then depending on kind of what they are, especially when they're money, um you can you have to compete against people to get them. And if you become a maxon lizer, then you need to usually commit justice to get and justice to get more than that you from other people.

So they're very competitive and then they they take a lot of effort to get. And and because of that, that you neglect these necessary things to think about the person who who really, really wants to get ahead in business and make a lot of money and they neglect their family, right, or they nego their friends. And so they kind of like chase these corrosive, the objects of these corrosive desires and neglect the necessary ones.

And so the easy way to think about IT is these necessary ones are the ones without which you could pretty much say for epic ious, like it's just really hard to live a good life. The exact against is are actually kind of the things we save. And I like daily joys and and like epic seeks that, you know, our life is rich with these things, but we don't strictly need them.

So when they go away, like say, you know, with a pandemic, its and the restaurants close or um then we should just think that's fine, very nice. Well, we had them, but they weren't necessary. We have everything we need to then. We have everything we need now an inclusive desires are the ones that like competitive or shallow or under my relationships, but also just can't be satisfying because they just go on without limit.

In this interview, Emily Austin talks about the complex relationship between pleasure and happiness. If you'd like to learn more about having us and how to tap into IT daily, check out episode two sixty five with toy charlet, author of the book look again. He explains why things that once made us happy no longer do, and how we can rekindle that happiness.

Habituation is absolutely something that you see in every human, yes, as individual differences seek, and that we have been treated to different of things. But this is a very, very fundamental aspect of our physiology.

Now let's get back to my interview with Emily Austin. There are things that ever curious rise about that we can do the way our desires against feelings of tranquility. And you write about the importance of reflection, considering how the world works, thinking about the future based on past experience, having a community of friends, a commitment to certain virtues. Would you be willing to take one of these? And maybe it's one that you feel is really a important to you and just kind of walk us through IT and how to think about IT as we weigh a particular desire.

So I think one thing that i've really worked on a law is we all really value our friends, but we're very bad at prioritizing them. Um and I know exactly sure why we are, but it's just really easy to um get pulled away from uh Fostering your relationships towards things that are um shallow by comparison or even just like time wasting right. And so one way that i've thought about this, it's almost like I always say yes policy.

So if if I get invited out my friends, because it's in a busy schedule, it's really hard to get IT like just to fine times and so people say, hey, do you want to come over for dinner? I just say yes and often I think initially like but I won't get this thing done for work or uh I really like I I just i'm kindly tired um and so whatever else IT is, I just think is that really so important or you know is that pulling me away from something I really value? And so one way I do that I just served like always priorato ze my friends um and and sometimes that's that's actually not very easy because I am tired.

But then I go and I feel great about IT and have maintained these relationships. And I think that actually there are a lot of ways in which we have to make very important life decisions sometimes, and we have to wait what we value, uh, sort of what promotes our our stability and and what does that. So I always find IT really interesting, at least in academia, how many people are William to just something like leave their friend community for more prestigious job, and then how often actually they end regretting that um because even though their job is Better, their community was uh Better where they started.

So I I was actually I bumped into A A colleague and airport and he he was coming back from a conference in kind of small state school in new york, and it's where he and his wife had had their first job. And I said, what did you miss IT? And he said, like, I was just in tears, I was almost in tears leaving, right? I just missed IT so much.

And so it's interesting, right, that we can sort of like pull ourselves toward to these ambitious goals, that applications, things are actually relatively inconsequential and the pull us away from this really valuable community resources that Foster and maintain our tranquility. And then um also just think you know about the ways that these inclusive desires really do bully away from valuable things, whether that ambition or you know needing you know ever more you know money or um ever more popularity. There's actually a really interesting story too, about this this guy I was talking to and he was kind of a of he come from A A limited financial limited background and then became kind of an executive.

And he started getting invited to all of these things, that is, his friends couldn't go to because they couldn't afford them, right? So his his limited free time was to go to these exotic locations that his friends couldn't afford to visit, right? And so again, it's sort of like this, like OK. Well, that is really nice, but it's putting you away from something that's far more important.

And it's when you say that, I feel it's tRicky because sometimes you don't know until you experience IT.

Yeah and I mean, I think every curious doesn't I mean, I hope he doesn't think that we are just all just natural at this or great at IT. And I think he has a lot more space in his thea for just like the fact that IT we're doing the best we can. But I do think what kind of you said, right, you're like there was a point where you needed to take over control of your future, right, and really think hard about things.

And I think evoker is hopefully he thinks we he's hoping that will do that earlier than you know, so that we don't regret a lot. But the only way actually sometimes to learn what valuable is to have lost IT or messed IT up. And it's really good if we can, you know, read a book you like, oh, great, that's true.

I will do IT. But sometimes we just think, oh, I didn't do that or I I failed in that respect. And so we learn from IT.

I think all of us have messed up friendships or relationships made poor career decisions or so. I mean, it's it's not, we're never gonna perfect, but you do get Better. I think.

What is epicurious conception of friendship? What would I curious say makes for a good friend or a good friendship?

It's interesting, right? Because some people give him grief because he is a heaven ness. So, right? So it's sort of like at you, pretty much everything ephesians do because he thinks, well, we can't do otherwise is to pursue our own well being.

And and you know that means that when we pursue friendships were doing IT from a sort of self interested motive, right? In some people don't like that, right? So if you.

You were to, and I don't recommend doing this if you were to a, you know, ask your romantic partner, why do you love me and they said, well, you know, that makes me IT pleases me then you might think, oh, well, once the person like stops being pleased, then they're sever the relationship and and wait. So it's all about them. I shouldn't be about me.

And so the epic arians kind of they they want to show what the pleasures of friendship are within, you know, the constraints of their own system. And so one one main thing is that because apparent ans want this fundamental sense of like satisfaction and stability, friendships have to be very stable. So they have to be built on a secure foundation of trust.

And so it's for epoxide. Trust is the most important thing you could have, like the funny is most glamorous friend possible. But if you can't trust them, you shouldn't be friends with them.

And trust beans, you know that they won't cheat you, but also just that they were on a band on you in a time of need, that are, they will keep your secrets ah there you know if you if you have to have a right at the hospital at all, they're not gna invent an excuse, right? So it's a kind of mutual recognition of vulnerability and that you'll be there for each other. And if that's not there, the epic our thinks that's a really bad friendship.

And I think lots of us have been in friendships like that. And and worse, sometimes we've pursued those friendships actively while neglecting the stable ones because I don't know their less glamorous or something. And that kind of bring me to the second criteria, which is that you have to have a shared conception of what matters.

And you for epic ia, because the repeat, ian, we're going to say that what matters is it's what's necessary, right? And and if someone you know things that can be the your friend because you you you're not cool enough, you don't have enough money or you don't have enough status, or then that's A A really bad friendship. If if you're building your friendship on something like that, then IT just becomes very unshakable.

And so it's just Better to to enter the friendship, knowing that the most important thing is the security um but then also a happy here thinks friends are not just sort of like there to take you to the hospital, but there there sort of like the best way to enjoy pleasures, right? So if if you think about almost all of you, if I ask you, think about your best pleasures and remember them richly and vividly, they almost all will have someone else in them. They're shared. And if they worry, you wish you could have, right?

You're like, I saw this and I wish I could have shared IT with the other person and so epicure thinks that um you know friends are there to help you in times of need but they are also like the best way to enjoy these kind of simple pleasures and rich pleasures and then um you know there there there uh those those pleasures and those memories of those events are also there when you're in going through a hard time and so for epic is really about your friends are abandoned some sense and and the way that you know that they won is that they they kind of share your values 啊。 But IT is some people find that a kind of ostia conception in the friendship, right? That is sort of like making sure that the person is reliable. But then when you started thinking about IT, like why why would you be in a friendship with someone who would who would leave you in a time of need? So I tried to think, yeah, that's the first criteria.

Contrast that with stoicism. Views on friendship. I was really surprised to learn their views on friendship.

yes. So and they talk a lot about friendship, and friends are wonderful and all sorts of things, but they have kind of a philological impediment, the big problem, which is that they they think virtue is the only good. And so nothing else is is good in that way.

That includes your child, but also your friend, right? So like if you if you lose a friend, you haven't lost anything of value in their mind. But also is that the so exchange is supposed to be in vulnerably happy, the sort of like nothing, nothing can happen to the stock age to make them grieve.

And then also they don't need anything. So so one thing is interesting about, you know, the epic, ian, is that friendship is born, in some sense, out of vulnerability, right? We can do IT all on our own.

We can even, like, be emotionally self sufficient. And so we we need friends, but the stoics think we don't have any need, the least the stage has no kat, which means to say he doesn't have a friend or doesn't need a friend. And then also, yeah a lot of them seem to have thought that the reason you have a friend is to display your own virtue， right? So they're an opportunity for you to be virtuous.

H, but you don't need them. And actually a you for the stuff actually should be sort of embarrassed to need them, right? So that if they if they were a need to assist you then that means you haven't achieved this police stoic state so yeah they just mostly they have a problem with friendship because they think we don't need anything other than virtue including friends um and application thinks, well yes yeah we need friends.

I was thinking what you said, which is like if you go through an experience, what usually one that you enjoyed, you've gone through IT with someone. And if you had a great experience and you didn't have someone there like you said, you often wish you did. And i'm thinking about how the stocks would take a photo of themselves somewhere enjoying something with their virtues. It's just like, wow.

yeah, this is weird, right? I mean, so I thought this a little bit a because there is a sense in which you do anna, share things with. I don't know why I was just thinking you about the the point about taking sales and these amazing places and and that that took me off in another direction that wasn't really friendship related.

But IT is true that, right, we have this impulse when we are like, oh, here's this amazing double rainbow. Let me send that to everyone I know right um and IT seems like that is IT hands the pleasure. But sometimes I think people go too far in the like that the only thing that makes IT pleasant so that if you didn't share IT, IT wouldn't be pleasant. And so I think I do you want to point out that it's it's not that you should just share IT with the world and that makes IT more well.

Yeah, let's talk about that because there's a phrase that I really loved, which is approximately visors that we quote live unnoticed. What does that mean? Yeah, that's a good question.

What does that mean? So there there's no record of epic urus himself saying this, but I did kind of come down as as you know sort of a feature of the school and there are tax where he says, you know sort of like you should flee politics and and then the ebi carians lived in this place called the garden outside of athens. We're kind of small community where they lived together and practice philosophe. And there was private households.

IT wasn't some sort of bizarre happy keep coming in where they shared everything but but they did live together on the outskirts ts of society um but still we know near athens so they weren't you know again they weren't social dropouts but they did think that participating in sort of political intrigue and things like that was just uh an unnecessary source of anxiety so um one way that I robot live a notice in the book that i'm sure epicure did not have in mind was the relationship that we have to social media and the desire to um have lots of people a look at and appreciate our lives in the way that that can a cause lots of anxiety right I don't know. I actually got a telling the book about know why and how I got all social media so I I do um I have the the past experience that my students often have you putting something out there and being like why isn't someone liking that? Why are only five people liking that? And so there is this kind of desire to um even maximized likes in a kind of corrosive way.

So there's the sort, the way that we can make ourselves anxious by wanting to be noticed by other people um and how we can pass to them in wanting to be noticed. And so there's a sense in which living on also mean sort of like not desire that people notice and celebrate you like being able to be happy without that are being invested in that um and with the idea that if you get really invested in IT IT will make you miserable. But then it's also come down to us uh the live unnoticed as a sort of political dictums or of inao idx of politics.

And when I was writing the booth, that was a really hard thing to deal with because they think many people think, you know, we have this obligation to be politically engaged. And if epicure is saying don't do that and it's just practically selfish or self indulgent. And so I did kind of struggle trying to figure out what he thought about how a, you know, an individual now should be politically active because the book self right is about how to be an ephemera now. So so you know, IT was IT was strange try to figure out what he means by not being you know politically active um and I tried to walk a fine line there, but I did worry that people would be like that. So soft dolgin what .

is interesting right? It's it's for me it's always about defining what is politically active mean, and what am I actually doing to affect the kind of change that I believe in. And IT goes back to my values. And you talk about a three part test, the epoxide rights, about the necessity test, the status test, the change test. And I thought that was helpful to think about in relation to this as well.

yes. So I mean, I guess you know there's not a whole lot of evacuation an tex. There's more than that.

We have almost nothing from the greek stoics. And so to some exit, I I in these cases, I had to kind of build IT out from the system. So one thing is that he does think some things are necessary for happiness and well being.

And so those would be political priorities. So making sure that people have food and shelter, clothing and, uh a decent opportunity for education and even like leasure time to make friends, right? So he would think those are all political priorities.

I think what he's not going to think are important, sort like maxim ing names, right? So like how can. How can this mean country get as Richard as possible or something along those lines and then also things that divide people unnecessarily.

So we often get um cat seem to help getting in math and these disputes that when we step back, we're like, is this really consequential? Like does this get people fed or make sure people feel safe at night or is IT just some sort of like thing, just like sort of represent something else, you know um and so I think there are a lot of things that he would just think, well, that's the sort of thing that divides people in his toxic and will make you and everybody else unhappy. So just don't go there.

A and then I think he does think, again, you're going to pursue these things, but you have to be able to do IT in a way that doesn't upset your tranquility. And part of that is just to think, i'm hoping and I succeed IT would be great if I do, but i'm not gonna get angry if I don't. And so that's the kind of, you know, making sure that when you are pursuing things that are a priority that you can do IT in a way that doesn't derail everything else.

And then I think I think the evacuation and can be put to involved um but I have thoughts about you know a little bit more about uh, how politics has gotten just too much and too people's daily lives like I remember when I was a kid, I went with my mother. He was voting at the elementary school I went to and he came out of the voting booth, like old school voting booth with the big leavers and staff and and I don't know what if I asked her or somebody else, but I just remember her saying, Emily, you never ask anyone who they voted for and I just thought, really and so for years and years I thought, well, well, that's what you do. You know, it's just like up to private matter matter of conscience and and then like somehow I think that entirely gone on.

And so sometimes I wonder are to what is that, uh, overly focusing on political stuff leads to this kind of social division that we're all experiencing right now. And so I spent the last three summers in y omean as a campground host for the national forest service and people who are coming to the park ground. They don't share a lot in common with me, with my political views.

But the nice thing is just something about being in a remote place and um in A A social environment where your campaign and you're there for leisure, that makes IT you seem almost like inappropriate to talk about politics. And so I realized it's just really nice and maybe maybe that is sometimes like an indulgence, right? There are times when people are desperately in need of stuff and and they can only be achieved their political action.

I think the advocate ans would be all about that, but just sort of like inconsequential disagreement, or kind of like picking sides or teams. I think that just eventually boot traps into like just really strong civic division. And I thought, you know, maybe maybe would be nice if we talked about this a lot less.

I would imagine that there are other things that you would learn about each other when wilmers that make talking about politics is not necessary to the conversation. You connect in other ways around other things.

right? And I think that that's actually what is kind of a loss, right? So there are two, two kind of problems, right? So what is that? actually? I think win n people are face to face with one another and they they already know one another or y've talked about other things.

Then it's easier for them to sort of like occupy the other person's headspace even if they don't agree, right? So they are like, okay, yeah, now at least I understand why you have that view even if I don't agree with that, but that's often built on being together and recognizing that you share lots of other stuff. And I think the more we get divided, the less likely you are to have this conversation.

So right? So if you spend like no an hour talking about like how do not get eaten by a bear or set the woods on fire or how beautiful the river is or how long you've lived in wong mae or um then you know if if IT does come up, then it's basically like, well, there are a really good person who just disagrees with me, right? But I think if if we front load politics, then it's like you don't actually get to know the other the other parts of people. And so that I think I mean, that's obviously it's not something epoca, but IT is a way that i've been thinking about why he would really discourage focusing on politics at least and um also getting invested in things that you can't fix or that you shouldn't really even be desire to begin where're taking to be important.

Ea, there are two questions I ask every guest as we wrap up the podcast. What are you most curious about today?

That's a really good question. So I guess i've i've been working on epeius for years, but I was originally a play to scholar, and i've been working on this passage in plato, the in intersects with some empirical literature. I've been fascinated by yso. Sacco was sort of famous for going around and showing people they didn't know what they think they know, know this, but they don't. And then he says, like, I am special because I recognized that I don't know what I think no or I don't I don't claim to know, uh, things that I don't know.

And so there's a passage in the file lib where he says that basically everyone over rested mates themselves ves, and sometimes it's just like they think they're richer than they are, taller than they are but the most pervasive one he says they think they are more virtuous than they are um and then he says, you know, when these people are exposed as you know deluded and people laugh at them, uh they they they get very upset and and some of the people who are not very powerful, they lash out and actually injure other people and other people are just harmless and ridiculous, right? And and there's this ethics about IT in plato so the question is sort of is is IT OK to laugh when people's delusions are exposed, right? So if if they think they are Better than they are, and then you say, oh no, no, here you're not.

What is IT that makes us laugh at that? And then more importantly, so he seems to have this idea that you you can laugh at people who are are really he he's asking whether you can laugh at people who are very vicious and deluded, right? So imagine you have someone who is very included and like very vicious um and their vice is exposed is that funny and and IT seems strange because you're just like what why would vice be? Funny doesn't makes sense to laugh when people you know like of inch killer enemies you know steal things and but IT does seem like we laugh at that a lot and we laugh at people who are deluded um and that's basically what all political satire is so so I guess i've been curious about uh this intersection between thinking we're morally Better than we are uh, the fact that we actually are deleted on that front according to empirical research and then why IT is that we mock other people for having that delusion when it's actually just really pervasive. So why is IT that we laugh at fools if we ourselves are also prone to the same error?

Emily, the last question, is there anything I haven't asked that you'd like to speak to? There's so much in this book, I can't get to nearly the amount that I would love. And i'm curiously, there anything you want to lead this with? Or is there anything that we haven't talked about one thing that you'd want to have a song away with?

yeah. So I guess one of the things that epic ious is kind of most famous for among philosopher is that he thought that death is not bad ah and so if he thinks, you know, if anxiety is one of her sex the greatest impediment to our tranquility, more deaths, prey aniele and so he does he offers a set of arguments and strategies for dealing with the fear of death and and I think, you know, if we had just plenty of time then we could talk about, you know america's attitudes to the death and the manifestations of, you know how the fear of death limits their ability to live good lives and and I think eis has a lot of advice about that.

And so in the book I talk a lot about death and sort of the the desires some people's desire to live forever but also like there um you know they're inability to think about or talk about death or prepare for death and and then the role of friendship and death and preparing for death. And so I think there's there's a whole dimension of epicurus. Of course, there's the pleasure stuff, but there's also just like the how to deal with life's deep existent al realities uh and so uh I guess that would be just when I give a plug for for the excitement of thinking about death.

i've going to put a plugged in the pig backs s on that which is, you know, i'm a big fan of libraries and the same for syncope public library has focused there who actually have been running a series of workshops now for a couple years on talking about death and dying. And you know, I don't think we think about a library is a place where people talk about that stuff.

But people there have really felt like we need a space to talk about IT, to Normalize IT and to tap into what people think about IT and feel about IT because it's coming for all of us in one way, shape or form. So I just want to put a plug into that now, probably put IT in the show notes. I thought that was a particularly fascinating part of your book as well.

His thoughts on deck and dying yeah I think it's I mean, I guess I got into philosophy um one of the classes I took in college was this class called the history of death in amErica and um I I just fascinated me and I was about culture but also graveyards and and so when I went in a graduate school I had all this death stuff happened in my mind and that ended up my guess leading to me writing my dissertation on player and death.

But I still have just a huge sociological, historical interest and I kind of indulged that in my teaching but not in my writing but I am really kind of obsessed with like discussed like why we don't discuss that and what what would happen if we did um more often and that was cool that they are doing that because I think at the very least that will um I will give somebody some data about how people. Feel all after doing that. And i'm hoping .

that one of these topics that you've brought up that you're curious about you may and depriving another book on that .

would be great for all of us. Yeah, I would love to I think that the political might be next project. But but I don't I don't know. Yeah, I guess right now i'm in the trenches of doing a lot of teaching. But I I look forward to the time when I can dedicate a huge chunk of time to new project because I love right for a non academic audience.

IT was so amazing. Well, thank you so much. IT has been wonderful to speak with. You is such a terrific book.

And I got me thinking about things that, in some case, I hadn't thought about for a long time or maybe had never thought about. So thanks for for taking us a little bit on a much deeper dive on epic ious. A new understanding of pleasure.

yeah. And thanks for having me. This is a great, really fun conversation.

Curious sze at work is made possible through a partnership with the innovation circle and executive coaching firm for innovative leaders. A special thank you to producer, an editor, rob mac. Ability for leaving the amazing behind the scenes team that makes IT all happen each episode, we give a shout out to something that's feeding our curiosity.

This week is willing in finnigan nonfiction book burberry, an days, a surfing life. Talk about pleasure is a book about fitting in passion for surfing. In this release, less pursuit of the perfect wave. This pursuit yells experiences and stories that expand his perspective. It's a while.