Summer Bookshelf • Episode #162
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Hello, and welcome to the Book Club Review. I'm Kate, and this is the podcast about book clubs and the books that get people talking.

If you're new to the show, you might not know that my co-host Laura and I became friends when she lived here in London. But a few years ago, she moved back to her hometown of Vancouver with her family. And since then, we've recorded remotely. Recently, though, I had the great treat of seeing her in person as she spent a whirlwind week in London. Of course, we had lots of books to catch up on. And our friend and regular guest Phil Chafee dialed in to join us from New York.

In this episode, we're going to be swapping notes on Summer It book, The Ministry of Time by Callie-Ann Bradley, the autofiction of Deborah Levy, Francis Buffett's new novel Cahokia Jazz and age-turning art world memoir All That Glitters by Orlando Whitfield, among others. But before we get to all of that, keep listening as we've got a little something else for you first. Hey

Hey, Laura, there's something special about this episode. Oh, really? What's that? It's sponsored. Oh, exciting. Well, we've never had a sponsored episode before. That's because it has to be a product I actually like and I want to endorse, and also something that I think our listeners would find interesting. That's intriguing. Tell me more then. I was approached by this lamp company called Serious Readers, who kind of had me at the name, because if there's one thing we're serious about here at the Book Club Review, it's reading.

And I ended up doing a little interview with Alex, the founder, about the lights. It was supposed to be a quick 15 minute chat. We ended up talking for almost an hour. I could have talked to him more because this whole light business is so interesting. And it's basically to do with the fact that our eyes don't get the light that they need. And almost like the difference that you feel when your eyes are getting the light that they need. Here's a bit of that conversation, which I hope our listeners who are also readers will find as interesting as I did.

I started by asking Alex how the company got its name. Serious Readers was named after my mum because she was a serious reader who had macular degeneration, which meant that she lost a lot of her sight. Because all sight is light, something which I'd learned by mistake when I was at university, I made her a light and called it Serious Readers. In my second year at university, back in the 80s,

I found in my first year, I did really well. And in my second year, I really struggled. And I isolated it to the fact that in my hall of residence in year one, I had a great light on my work table. And in year two, in my flat, I was struggling with a table lamp. And it was almost like, well, it was a light bulb moment, actually, to suddenly realize how much difference light made. And I went from there. And what is it about your lamps then that is different from other lamps that you could buy? What did you feel you couldn't find that you wanted to make this product

The thing about light is that we cannot tell the makeup of that light, the spectrum, the spectral makeup, the amount of each of the different wavelengths in the light.

And the reason for that is, ROIs have evolved over hundreds of millions of years under natural light. And there was no reason, therefore, to evolve to notice spectral changes because there weren't any other than during the day when the spectrum changes naturally. And that never changed. It was always the same. So we've not evolved to spot changes in the spectrum. And it didn't really matter until

150 years ago when we introduced artificial light. And the early artificial lights, they weren't a great copy of natural light, but they were full spectrum. They had all of the different wavelengths. But when we moved to LEDs and fluorescents,

That fundamentally changed the spectrum of the light and the spectrum makes a massive difference. The research we're now finding is that too much blue might stop you sleeping. If you've not got enough red, then it affects the mitochondria in the brain. There's research going into certain reds impacting diabetes control, blood sugar. We're doing clinical research at the moment into

how deep light can reach into helping ameliorate the conditions of tinnitus, Parkinson's. So light's like the ultimate human drug and we're only now discovering just how potent it is. So that's our difference. We mirror the natural spectrum as closely as we can, whereas normal cheap technologies aren't able to do that. I was very interested in what you said about helping with focus and concentration there. I think many readers...

busy readers struggle with fitting in time to read and we're constantly prey to so many distractions. And what I found field testing your lamps, which I've been quite impressed by, is especially when I'm reading at night, I have really noticed the sense in which I've been able to focus on the page, which I can only put down to the light because that's the only thing that's changed. Have you heard anecdotally, is this what people generally seem to experience?

Yeah, very much so. And that's part of the mission. We're not lighting the void in the room. We are lighting the space on which one is concentrated. You get drawn into that pool of light because your eyes and your visual system have developed and evolved

to love that environment, which is very different to a cold blue LED lamp with lots of blue in the spectrum, no reds. With the spectral power distribution is not what your body has evolved to feel comfortable and stress-free in. It does draw you in. It helps you concentrate for longer. We've had a lot of anecdotal feedback about it. It allows you to think better. You're absorbed into that light space.

Light makes such a big difference. You know, I get that people don't get that because we live with it all the time. And the naked eye can't see the difference. But the difference is real and it's very potent and life-changing. A number of people that say it's transformed my life is really uplifting for us. That's really why we do it. That's what light can do for you. It's powerful stuff.

So they lent me a couple of the lamps to try out and I am basically a huge fan. What's so special about them? I've got the floor lamp and the table lamp. There's lots of things I like about them but the main thing that I noticed when I started using them was how much more easily I felt I was able to focus on what I was doing and particularly the floor lamp I've got upstairs by my bed was

there, where I do actually, as listeners probably know, like my main reading zone is in bed at night before I go to sleep. And I really was noticing how much more easily I was reading and how much more comfortable it felt just this little sense of being able to focus on the page that much more easily, which I was rather enchanted by. I have a very diffuse kind of glowing light next to my bed, to the point where I'll sometimes have to contort myself to get closer to that lamp.

So what does this one do? Direct straight down on the page? Yeah, so the beam is quite focused, although you can adjust it so you can make it more diffuse or if you want it even more kind of like precise. You're going to do some surgery. Well, I'm...

I'm thinking more like needlework. Our minds went different places. But definitely you could see that potentially you can imagine, you know, in my world, like if you were getting a splinter out of a child's finger or something, I could see that it might be quite useful for that. But just for general reading, you can just get it set so that you've got this nice light on the page.

And the other thing I noticed, which is a slight side benefit, is when reading in bed at night, when my partner is slumbering away next to me, it was quite good actually because the light is just on the page and it's not bothering him.

which I don't feel like that's in serious readers, you know, like marketing brochure. Domestic harmony is important. I'm always reading when my husband's already fallen asleep. Yeah, I think it's good. And even during the day when I'm switching from working on the laptop, which is this blue light you get from a screen,

So then I think you're adjusting to normal light. And Alex was saying that when you have the lamp on, what it helps to do is it helps to equalize that light range for your eyes. And so, again, I can't remember the sort of science behind it, but it just felt like there's something happening that means that your eyes aren't having to work so hard.

when I tried them, I really noticed the difference and I felt like it was more enjoyable to read because my eyes weren't having to work so hard. And I suppose at the back of my mind, I also have this slight sense of wanting to look after my eyes, you know, make them last as long as I possibly can. And it feels to me like these lights might help with that. So listeners, if you are interested to try out a serious reader's lamp, we've actually partnered up with them to bring you a special offer. Again, unprecedented on the Book Club Review podcast. Yeah.

So you can visit their website, SeriousReaders.com forward slash BCR and use the code BCR at checkout for £100 off any HD light. And if you're in the UK, you'll get free delivery too. Overseas listeners, you can still get the offer, but just to let you know, there would be a delivery fee. Find that link for more details in the show notes or on our episode page at thebookclubreview.co.uk.

You have 30 days to decide if it's right for you. And if you're anything like me, you won't want to send them back. So you're not sending them back? I'm not sure I will. OK, let's cut from that to an English garden, a couple of glasses of rosé and some bookish chat. OK.

Here we are in the same space. Listeners, I am reaching out and I am touching Laura Potter on the arm. She is here next to me in my garden. We're next to each other and Phil is joining us from New York. Welcome, Phil. Hello.

I am watching them touch on the arm. Clink the wine glasses. It is a balmy English evening in London. Phil is dialing in from his office in Midtown. Slightly different experience for him. But we had to recruit him to this Bookshelf episode for a very important, controversial reason. There's something that needs to be discussed. So on our little WhatsApp chat that flies around between us,

The Ministry of Time came up. For any listeners unaware, this is being pushed by publishers, I think, very much as the book of the season. It's got a huge word-of-mouth buzz. Correct?

Chrissy told us about it in the 2024 books preview show that I did with her back in early spring. She was like, this is what I'm really excited about. It's about, what is it about? Actually, you tell it. You guys have read it. I haven't read it yet. Laura and Phil have read it, but there is some difference of opinion about it, which I'm keen to dig into. I am going to just read the blurb to be comprehensive and give people a portrait of it.

In the near future, a disaffected civil servant is offered a lucrative job in a mysterious new government ministry, gathering expats from across history to test the limits of time travel. Her role is to work as a bridge, living with, assisting, and monitoring the expat known as 1847, Commander Graham Gore.

As far as history is concerned, Commander Gore died on Sir John Franklin's doomed expedition to the Arctic, so he's a little disoriented to find himself alive and surrounded by outlandish concepts such as a washing machine, Spotify, and the collapse of the British Empire.

With an appetite for discovery and a seven-a-day cigarette habit, he soon adjusts, and during a long, sultry summer, he and his bridge move from awkwardness to genuine friendship to something more. But as the true shape of the project that brought them together begins to emerge, Gore and the bridge are forced to confront their past choices and imagine futures. I already feel like this blurb has told readers too much.

because I read this book just for context paint a scene Phil's already looking skeptical listeners I knew enough I knew enough I do the perfect amount that when I picked it up in a bookshop I was like oh I've seen this show up on some people's Instagram feeds it's Saturday morning I'm heading into my weekend I'm gonna buy this book I'm gonna read this book I'm

Really enticingly, it had a quote endorsing it from Max Porter. And then from Emily Henry, the exceptionally popular romance novelist who I have read. She's a good writer. Her books are a bit silly, but she's a strong writer. And that pairing, I was like, this is interesting. Also, time travel, clever narrator, people saying it was funny. And listeners, I loved it. I devoured it with no real critical lens whatsoever.

And I had snapped it to you guys that day. So I said, oh, I just got this. I'm so excited to dig into it. But what did you love about it? Was it a really great story or great characters? What was it that was so great? What was it? I think early on, the narrator, who is our protagonist, says, don't think too much about the time travel. Like, don't think about the logistics. You know, it is what it is. So then it really is much more for the first three quarters about this collision of world perspectives. And the

as well as the narrator is of a British Cambodian background. And that's a through thread in terms of her identity, but also some concerns about encountering and cohabiting with this time traveler who is kind of a bastion of the empire. And he doesn't recognize her as anything other than English initially. And they're capitalizing

captured in this. You could just imagine the slightly dingy English apartment somewhere in London. It's all very, very hands-off. And so I've already slightly given it away because the blurb did when they say that there's a romance. But honestly, Phil's going to look at me like I'm an idiot. I wasn't sure that there was going to be a romance. Someone uses the word heartsick in one of the reviews I was checking out. And she is. She's just kind of like pining for this

Very charismatic, lovely explorer who's been transported from the Arctic. And you do get these flashbacks to the life he was living before he came, which they'd been trapped in the ice in the Northern Arctic for two, three years. And they're all getting scurvy and their teeth are falling out. And I didn't really know that much about that doomed expedition. And

And then he's plucked out of it. And he actually has a huge amount of guilt and PTSD about leaving behind all of the men that he was there to serve. And of course, he travels forward in time and discovers that they all died in the Arctic. None of them survived. I'm immediately quite worried about the actual logistics of the whole time travel thing. I'm not sure I would be able to let that go in a casual way. Because, you know, if he wasn't there, the timeline. Well, so it is a fair point because what they say is that they've only plucked six, six?

six, five expats out of history. Four or five, something like that, yeah. From different points in history and the premise is that they've plucked them out when they were all very close to death. Oh, yeah.

So that, therefore extracting them from time shouldn't change current events. That's clever. Because they were about to die. So someone's pulled out of a plague house. I actually don't really remember what the others were doing. There's some wars. Oh yeah, from the trenches. World War I guy before he charges into battle and then they pull him in. He's otherwise just going to be a

corpse yeah and there's this thread too the reason they've only taken five or six is one to test out the implications for bringing people forward in time on history or the present rather but also then to test out what happens to them like can they psychologically no not just so like biologic by by physically physically physically can they come forward in time and not a huge amount happens for quite some time but it is i was hooked so phil you loved it too yeah

I will start about the things I liked. Can we first start with, because I have a thesis, a premise, an idea, but can we just start with how much did you know about it before you read it? Not a lot. I basically knew that Chrissy loved it. I knew that it is sort of the it book. Wasn't there some crazy auction? And also the rights were sold for a TV adaptation before it was ever released. Yeah, that's got Netflix miniseries all over it. Exactly. And I knew there was tons of hype.

and obviously something about time and some thrillery thing. And I will say what I did like is she's got a pretty clever idea. There's some very interesting ideas in there. There's some very interesting plot devices. There's some very interesting stuff that happens at the end.

But of all this very interesting plot, there's 5% right at the beginning to set it all up. And then there's 10% at the end. And the other 85% of the book is the most tedious thing. It's just like... They're falling in love, Phil. I'm trying to picture like...

Basically, I mean, it's all part of this Frankenstein genre, on-trend genre of romance mashed with something else. So we talked about Fourth Wing a while back, mashed with fantasy, and this is mashed with time travel thriller. But the mashing was very incomplete because it's these long stretches of these cutesy roommates talking about Spotify habits and nothing going on, very little plot being parceled out. And the characters were...

I don't know. It didn't feel that different from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Here's some wacky people from the past. And wow, they're amazed by computers and all these other things. And it was so boring. But I did love that last 10%. It was very fun. Whereas I thought the last 10% is slightly unraveled and it became a bit ridiculous because I think it wasn't really meant to be about time travel. There was a lot in there around...

even the idea of progress, right? And like what is right and what is wrong and our belief that somehow we are progress and our values are infinitely superior to the values of the past and that we are in all ways morally superior and how could these people have been any different and our predilection

predilection for judging the past as well. That's all in there. That's why I got so cross. I didn't get cross really, but I was like, fourth wing. Like it is, you cannot even. That's a low bar. Yes, the romance is there. And I can be a sucker for, you know, a good will they, won't they? Oh my goodness. Will they, won't they is the main thing that gets me in any kind of way. So for me, I really didn't know if they would because he's such a

cold kind of he's not cold but he's entirely closed off from her and yeah so I guess they kind of have to say in the blurb that it's a romance in order to get the hook in order to get the people in but I really read it genuinely being like oh she's just gonna be real sad for some time because he is he's just not that into her he's not

The fourth wing comparison, just quickly, I do think it's slightly unfair because there's a lot more ideas in here. It's not just about time, but also about complicity, about progress, about interesting critiques of empire. That's all here. And she has interesting things to say about all of that. And I don't think fourth wing, I'm not remembering if there's any interesting ideas on that. But fourth wing, even if it's...

the Hogwarts type class structure, there's actual things happening. Whereas this is just long stretches of absolutely nothing happening. I am very mystified why there's so much hype here. Oh, actually, I feel like you've explained why there's so much hype is because of the romanticist genre. And now this is romance with time travel, but she can write and also weave in some serious ideas. So the publishers are like, well, hey,

It's on trend and it's commercially on point. But also she's quite a good writer. I agree with Phil's point that she has some real clunky, distracting metaphors. Once you said it, I was like, yeah, I did notice some of those. I mean, this feels to me a very seasonal book. You know, in summer, we sort of want something escapist. We want something that if we're not actually away on holiday, lying on a beach lounge, it's something that makes us feel like we can just relax and sit back and enjoy the ride.

And this sounds like one of those books. And I think then, you know, your critical lens is slightly softer, should we say? I should say it was also, yes, but she also does, like there's a real thread around climate change and impending doom of society that I was kind of like, do you really need to bring that in here? Like, does this have a place in this otherwise sensational? It does. It did have a place. But yeah, it's not all feel good, Kate. I think it sounds like a fun book club read. Oh, I love it.

I don't know if it could be a book club read. I mean, it's fun because my take was spurred by Laura's loving it and by the publishing industry loving it. I feel like without that background, I probably would have been, meh, not for me. There's some fun stuff here. I have high hopes for the adaptation. But I sort of took off a bit on my criticisms just because we're getting spoon-fed this. And I don't know if it's quite worth that. So, first...

Phil's also getting his own back because last summer Phil Phil recommended Burnham Wood by Eleanor Catton to me which I hadn't really been planning on reading but I was heading off on holiday and he was like oh I loved Burnham Wood it was such a great page turner like so much happened and I read it on that recommendation while I was on holiday and finished it and was like

Phil, this book is ridiculous. The premise is ridiculous. The characters are all annoying. Which leads me to my thesis, which is that sometimes, and I think it is primarily with commercial fiction, right? I do feel like, certainly with Phil and me, it's very rare for us not to have alignment on like really good literature. We're both like, yeah, like this is it. You know it when you see it. There's no debate here. Commercial fiction, though, I think has a lot to do with time and place and expectations. Right.

So it's really, what are you in the mood for? What do you know about the book beforehand? And are you ready? Like, are you in the right state of mind to take it on? And so for Burnham Wood, I probably wouldn't have read it without your recommendation. And then it wasn't really the book for me. So I was super critical of it.

And similarly, you're like, screw you, publishers. And it's like book club. What is I don't know. It's got a stamp already. No, it's a Good Morning America book club book. That's it. It is already everywhere. I feel like it hasn't really yet seeped out onto everyone's bookshelf, but it's just a matter of time. It's a matter of the ministry of time. It's a matter of the ministry of time.

Kate, will you be reading it? Well, of course, I want to read it desperately. And I've got the audiobook downloaded from Spotify. But I haven't been able to because I've been very busy reading the podcast Patreon book club book for this month, which is the new Francis Buffard book, Cahokia Jazz. That is really excited to read. I love Francis Buffard. I love his writing. I loved Golden Hill. I loved Light Perpetual, totally different book, but I still loved it. The

This feels more Golden Hill-ish, as he once said to me in an email when he emailed me that one time. Be careful what you say. Yeah, yeah. But it's true. It's back to that very immersive world building. It's set in a city that I believe does exist in real life, the city of Cahokia, but in real life...

This was a indigenous American major settlement that fell aside, fell into disuse. And what he's offering here is, what is it, speculative fiction? It's saying, what if, in fact, the Europeans had come and they had brought a less deadly version of smallpox with them that hadn't wiped out?

the indigenous population who had then continued to thrive and be a very strong presence in this country and what you then end up with is a very very different America that's made up of these three ethnic groups of people that even now I'm like two-thirds of the way through it

I'm just like, oh, Francis, could you not have thrown us a bone? They're called the Takuma, a person native to the continent, a Taklusa, a person of African ancestry, or a Takata, a person of European extraction. So fine. Those are quite similar. Fine, but they're so similar. Very similar.

I mean, I think in a way it's slightly unfair of me as a reader to want to be spoon-fed this because I believe, having read a bit around this book, that actually what he wants you to be is confused.

He wants to plunge you in. He wants you as a reader to have to struggle a bit to find your feet. There's a very good New York Times review by Ivy Pakoda. She put it very well. She said, before embarking on this novel, the question to ask yourself is how much work am I prepared to put in to enjoy Cahokia Jazz by Francis Buffard? Am I willing to get my head around this situation of these three different ethnicities all living together, this alternate America where there are different powerful

factions and strongholds all competing against one another. Then you've got the police procedural that's the main spine, I suppose, of the structure where there has been a murder, quite a grisly murder that has been committed in some kind of ritualistic way that would point the finger towards the indigenous population. And you've got two detectives who are on the case. They are trying to figure out...

who was responsible for this murder to find the killer and in doing so I suppose the main character Barrow finds he's tapping into all these different webs of power and intrigue and as a reader you're following along with him and it is...

simultaneously brilliant and incredibly maddening because you want to really sink into it in the way that I remember sinking into Golden Hill and being totally immersed in the story and this character who was so charismatic and interesting and caring about what happened to him. And there's a sort of mystery at the heart of that book. And you're so intrigued as to what is the secret? And it keeps you turning the pages.

It feels like there's a mystery at the heart of this book, but you don't really care that much. And it's very hard to follow the threads of this character Barrow trying to figure it all out. And the characters themselves, it's strange because they're simultaneously quite rich, but also you're held at a distance from it all because there's so much going on.

And so I think as a book club read, it's slightly falling into that category of I'm glad I'm doing it for book club because that's keeping me honest and making me stick with it. And also it's a slight point of pride to me. I can't quite decide.

If it's the novel itself that's making it hard for me to follow, as in Spufford's writing, or if it's my own fractured attention span that is now so sadly wasted that I can't follow a complicated plot. And my anxiety about this is making me feel like, right, you know, I'm digging deep. I'm going to get through this.

Yeah, I mean, I have faith. I have enormous faith in this writer. I think he's going to draw together all the strands. And my expectation is it's going to be richly satisfying and kind of worth the pain.

But I don't know. I haven't finished it yet. I'm about two thirds of the way through. And yeah, I mean, it's experience. It's a really interesting experience reading it. And it's not one that I've had for a while. What's interesting is you saying all those things as someone who loves fantasy and

And world building, right? You could see someone who isn't into fantasy having an even harder time, right? Yes, although it's almost like it's real world but not. I wouldn't put the word fantasy on it because that feels like too much of a stretch. It's very grounded in a recognizable reality. The fantasy is almost just like this alternate what if the development of America falling on completely different lines.

what kind of ethnic mix would you have ended up with? And if the ever-present narrative of America that we know is a very strong kind of cultural thing that defines almost everything, you know, what if that was different? Interesting, you know, that he's obviously a Brit and that intrigues me, him wanting to take this on in a way.

And I find myself also slightly wondering, it taps into that thing about who has the right to tell certain stories, which I think is a very live, active, ongoing debate that is a tricky one because no one wants to inhibit...

writers and their creativity and the power of stories and storytelling. And I mean, you know, if we start to do that, we're destroying the very thing we all love so much. But at the same time, I find myself thinking, interesting. I bet his publishers were a bit nervous is all I'm saying. Was this one on your radar, Phil? Yeah, it's very much on my radar. Yeah, me too. I've been thinking about reading it next. I just keep on pushing it off. I actually did not even know the premise. I knew it was an America...

I knew the title was, but I did not know this sort of alternate universe premise. And that makes me more excited to try it. It's good to know that I need to be concentrating as I read it. The only other thing to know that I think is helpful is that the main character is also a jazz musician. And I think the idea of jazz and the idea that that is somehow improvised and formless and yet at the same time incredibly structured and has this history embedded within it.

What I suspect is very clever about it is that I feel like it's tapping into that. And what we're experiencing is almost a literary form of that, that is very cleverly built in to...

a genre novel that we know very well, which is the crime procedural. So all of that is dazzling, I think. And that's where I want to end up. I want to be dazzled by it. I still want to read it. I'm just sitting here quietly flicking through the pages. Yeah, it might be my next book. I'm very sold. Yes, slightly perversely, right? Like the fact that Kate's a little bit hesitant, but we know Francis Spufford. I'm like, okay, well, yeah, I'll see. I'll see how I feel about it.

Phil, what have you been reading other than The Ministry of Time? I am actually in the middle of this book, which I started yesterday, called The Dragon Waiting.

which is a very old school fantasy book from 1983. Are either of you familiar with this? I feel like the 80s and early 90s are the golden years of fantasy. Really is. The author is this guy, John M. Ford, who just reading about him online, people talk about him as like the Velvet Underground of fantasy authors, meaning the Velvet Underground was this 60s, 70s band fantasy

with Lou Reed, Nico, blah, blah, blah. And the famous quip about them was that nobody went to their shows, but everyone who went to their shows started their own band. They're incredibly influential. And this guy, John M. Ford, his fans are like Robert Jordan and Neil Gaiman. The book itself is also an alternate universe history book, historical fiction, set in high Renaissance, 15th century America.

But in this world where a millennium before, Emperor Julian, who was Constantine's nephew, in real life, Julian renounced Christianity, but then he died before he could do anything about it. But in this world, Julian instituted this rule that the state would not favor one religion over another, and it's stuck by that. So basically, Christianity does not spread like it used to. And then...

Byzantium is still a going concern. I'm not sure what happened with Islam, but there's also various Roman cults around. But it's also this world where all of the big famous historical figures are there. So you have the Medicis and the Sforzas or like Dante, who's dead at this point, but they talk about Dante's Inferno is about going to the land of Pluto. And so it's not a Christian Inferno, it's a Roman Inferno.

Anyway, none of this is really something in the book yet, but basically, as far as I can tell, it started with very long chapters introducing three entirely different characters. So it starts in Wales, and there's like a wizard, so there's also some fantasy elements here. And then it jumps to France, and then...

Italy, in Italy there's Sforza, the Duke of Milan is a vampire. So there's all of these insane fantasy tropes, but the writing is amazing and they're all being gone together. And I gather just from reading about it, I have not gotten here, that it ultimately converges on the War of the Roses and Shakespeare land with Henry IV and Richard III and everything with this pan-European cast of alternate universe, slightly magical people.

So far, I am loving it. It sounds a little bit like an alternative Dorothy Dunnett world. And Dorothy Dunnett is a historical novelist that Phil introduced me to. And who is also one of my favorites. She is someone who has these very long cycles, one of which is in the 15th century, just like this. I reread them every couple of years. I am a huge fan. I think I've endorsed one here before. Are there dragons? Yes.

No. It's actually, there's not a dragon waiting. I think reading about it, the dragon waiting may be a reference to Wales. But there's actually no dragon. Wales is going to rise. Is there sex? Because I now can't really read fantasy unless I know. I'm going to get, what, two more books at least? Succession of sexy scenes. Oh, oh, sex, you said. I thought you said set. Yeah.

No! They never put sex in back in the day. I know, not in the 80s. No. Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely adult. I have not gotten to proper sex yet. But some of the protagonists are women, so it's not entirely boys-owned fiction of some of our fantasy from our childhood. But I cannot vouch yet for sex. I don't feel like romance is on the way either. And anyone who didn't catch our episode where we talked about Fourth Wing will know that Laura and I were incredibly impatient with all the sex. We just wanted to read about the dragon. Yeah.

very annoying. Well, that sounds great. I would definitely seek that out because I love a fantasy palette cleanser. I am slightly pleased to say that I haven't read as much fantasy over the past two months. I feel like it was all fantasy January, February, March in a slightly embarrassing way. And I have been reading more broadly since about April. And

And that includes reading Deborah Levy's Real Estate, which is the third in her Living Memoir series. Oh, it's signed. She's got my copy in her hands. So Kate didn't think she had a copy. I didn't think I had a copy. And I was like, I've seen it on your shelf. I'm going to go get it. She said, no, I don't have a copy. And not only does she have a copy, she has an exclusive signed edition with post-its in it, proving that she read it and enjoyed it. I thought about it. No, I loved it. I just don't remember. No, I remember loving it. She was reading it, but she thought she read it on Kindle. Yeah. I listened to...

to the second living memoir, The Cost of Living, when my daughter was between six and eight months old. And it was those May-June COVID months, which were beautiful in London. And all I did was kind of walk around with my small child. And when she would fall asleep, I would have an hour or so of blissful listening to Deborah Levy. I've also read her novels, Hot Milk and

Oh, it's not in here. What's your latest one that you also have? August Blue. August Blue. And I am a huge fan. But if anything, real estate, this third in the series, made me even more of a fan. And I think about it. I think I actually just marked it up. I didn't put post-its in. I think one of the reasons I love it so much is that, one, you feel like she's the coolest friend you've never had. But two...

She's a living, breathing embodiment of this older woman having an incredibly rich creative life and thinking deeply about deep things. Writing, but also identity and sex and gender. And she's constantly pulling in quotes from French philosophers and she reads very widely. But

Then she'll have a little aside where she's talking about shoes. Because even this huge heavyweight of an intellectual cares quite a lot about the lovely shoes that she's bought. And then she'll muse on what it means for gender and sex and identity. And the whole premise of real estate is that having left her marriage, which was more the subject of the second memoir, she is thinking, she's dreaming of a room of her own, basically, a house of her own. Because she lives in North London in what she calls the crumbling flat area.

I don't know where it is exactly. Highgate, maybe? Yeah, I think so. Like a crumbling tower block. So even though she's become a wildly successful writer, you know, that still doesn't lead to huge financial wealth by any means, although she is now financially independent. And so she has this dream of real estate and this preoccupation that weaves all the way through in terms of how is she going to have this place of her own where people can come. But then musings on it even is like, does she even want it? Or is it more just the desire to have this special place for herself? Yeah.

I love her and want to be her when I grow up. And I think that's what's actually so wonderful about her books is because she's now in her early 60s, maybe even mid 60s, although I think early when she wrote this, and she's living the most amazing, fantastic life on her own terms. That just makes you very, I think, really like hopeful about what's to come and contrasts very nicely with all the narratives of what it means to be an older woman. I saw her once at the

Sally Rooney, Beautiful World, Where Are You? Southbank Centre. All the publicity around that book, it was the hot ticket thing to see in London. And I had idly scooped up a ticket quite early on. I was arriving with my friend and we were a little bit early. We went in and we realised we were kind of a bit too early. And so we turned around and went out again. And as we exited the building, Deborah Levy swept in, just like a queen. And I had the strongest impulse to just bow at her feet. LAUGHTER

But yeah, no, these books are great. Phil, have you read her novels or memoirs? I read the second one, I think, right at the same time that you were. It was over lockdowns. Weirdly, it was the same time that I was reading Cusk's Outline Trilogy. And there's a lot of overlap, particularly maybe the second one of those about divorce, one in real estate. And there's a...

not entirely dissimilar tone. So I get them very confused. I would say Debra Levy seems a lot more fun. I like Rachel. Rachel Koska is great. But Debra Levy is like you, I think for her 60th birthday, because she's in Paris. Um,

And she's got this grant to go live in a flat in Paris. And there's other people there who have these grants, one of whom is a Nigerian DJ who's doing a set at the coolest club on the day of her birthday. And so she parties till 6am at this club and her daughters in their early 20s are like, sorry, what? Where? You did what? What are you talking about? That's what I mean. I'm like, Debra Levy, we had a good time. Rachel Cusip.

I'm sure it would be great too, but it'd probably be a little bit more civilized. We've talked a bit, haven't we, about who would you want to have at your dinner party if you had to choose. I couldn't admire Rachel Kast more. I just would be absolutely terrified to meet her in real life.

If only for what she was going to write about. Just that unsparing gaze would be, yeah. Well, I, in my way of liking to mix it up between fiction reads, I dived into a memoir recently that I absolutely loved. It's called All That Glitters by Orlando Whitfield. And

And I had been primed to read it again by Chrissy, actually, at the beginning of the year, who told me it was coming out. And when she pitched it to me, she's like, yeah, it's memoir. It's by this guy who was in the art world. And he found out that his business partner was basically committing massive fraud, and he hadn't known about it. And so this is the story of what went on. It's the real behind the scenes. And I was like, I'm so sold. This sounds so great. Fine.

Finally, it came out and I bought a copy and took it home and started reading. And I basically burned through this book in two days. It is so good. So you get the story of Whitfield and it goes back to when he was a student at Goldsmiths, which is a pretty cool cutting edge place to study art here in London. Also writing and many other things. It's a place of some renown. So he was there and he befriended this American called Inigo Philbrick.

And these two young men had something in common in that they were both from a sort of certain artistic pedigree in a way. Whitfield's father was very senior at the auction house Christie's. So he had this very established position in the art world. And Inigo Philbrick's father was a very successful gallerist in America, where he was from, somewhere on the East Coast, I think. So you've got these two young men and they are both in London. They're studying art and they're kind of wanting to carve out their own

place in the art world and they're trying to figure out how to do it. And Inigo is certainly a very dynamic, charismatic individual. They form this slightly unlikely friendship because one of the things that Whitfield returns to throughout the book is this slight bewilderment that this glamorous person would want to be friends with him. But nonetheless, there clearly was this commonality between them and this friendship did continue. And so Whitfield is slightly in Philbrick's thrall. He watches his friend regroup

really get to grips with the economics of the art market. He's got this real understanding of how deals are made and that dealing art, if you understand what you're buying and selling, and crucially those personal connections with the clients, and the fact that it's all done on trust and a handshake and this very subjective quality, which is value. You know, how do you value a work? This is a world in which work is worth money.

what people are prepared to pay for it. And that when something is sold at a certain price, building artists' reputations, getting those auction prices in, and then it snowballs from there. But it's all, in a way, almost a slightly artificial construct. It's all a bit like money in general, right? It's just something we all believe in, isn't it? But, you know, that's all it is. It's just this sort of shared idea that these things have value. So the book is really interesting about all of that, giving you an understanding about how that world works. You start to see...

From Whitfield's perspective, Inigo Philbrick really making his mark in this world. And he's taken on by this very established gallerist, Jay Jopling, who runs a gallery called White Cube. Very successful, very established. And he takes Philbrick on and very quickly realizes that here is a young man who can make him a lot of money. And so he sets him up.

in a separate gallery, separate to White Cube. And the idea is that Philbrick will be dealing on the secondary market. So these are works that are never shown in galleries. It's all done and kind of like word of mouth and things moving from bonded warehouse to bonded warehouse and sometimes never even being shown to the public because it's all about this network of contacts and information and very, very, very wealthy people wanting these sort of liquid assets, I think is what it is.

Illiquid? Yeah, so things that have these objects that have this value but that are somehow almost transitory. They're not fixed. They can be bought and sold and disposed of and crucially not subject to the same tax that putting your money in a bank might be. So yeah, Whitfield's sort of an uneasy sidekick to all of this. He doesn't really fit. He's not good at it in the same way that Philbrick is.

And after a few years, he hasn't really found a place or a role with Phil Brick. And so he starts to drift away. And in the background is his own psychological meltdown. He has a bit of a crisis and he ends up drinking too much and he ends up going to rehab. And then there's a very moving passage about where he found solace, which is in the work of this art restorer.

who's someone who's very painstakingly working very carefully to help restore these works of art to their beautiful, pristine state. And there's something a bit miraculous about that, that Orlando Whitfield really takes solace in. And so what you're getting as well is this kind of side thread about, on the one hand, art as commercial product and the value and this monetary value. And it's speculation and wheeler dealing and all of this.

But on the other hand, there's this very lovely thread about what does art really mean? What is it about works of art that is precious and special? And actually, somehow, is that separate from any monetary value that we might place on them? And I think that's one of the things that makes this book quite special, is it isn't just this sensationalist story about this very exciting event.

fraud that was going on under everyone's noses and you see the arc of that and then you see the fall at the end but it's also about someone really trying to figure out the meaning of art and somehow what place culture has in our lives that is really interesting because he doesn't have all the answers you're alongside him trying to figure it out

And also, you've got this amazing psychological dynamic between these two that's just really beautifully drawn. I found that completely mesmerising. I absolutely loved it. It was a London that's very recognisable to me. I work in Piccadilly. The streets around where my office is, these are the streets that all these galleries are. These are the people that are all in this book. You know, I see these people every day and I'm very much like, oh my goodness, you know, how the other half live. Because it is very like that. I mean, it's just ridiculous. It's like another world. It's very cushioned.

lovely world. I think this is the thing I think about the world of the wealthy is it's a very nice place to be. No one's horrible to anyone because you wouldn't need to be. You know, it's all done in a very kind of this veneer of geniality and charm because...

No one has any worries. They've just got all this money. They don't need to have these kind of like everyday arguments that the rest of us have. I don't know. It's just interesting to me. And I think you get a real taste of that in this book as well. You get to go behind the velvet curtain and you get to see these spaces. What were their names? Orlando? Orlando Whitfield and Inigo Philbrick. Which are maybe the best names. I mean, even just quite par for the course in the art world. Interesting.

It's so good. I absolutely loved it. It was such a great read. It was just a great read. And we were talking a bit about nonfiction and sometimes people, I think, are a bit wary of nonfiction. And what you really hope, perhaps, if you are feeling that way, is that you want a nonfiction read that reads like a novel. This is such a great story. It will have you turning the pages because you'll want to know how things pan out at the end. After Kate raved about this, I went out and also devoured it in 36 hours. Second...

and everything Kate said, it is such a good read. Indigo Philbrick is such like larger than life dynamic character who just pops off the page just as much as the name promises.

And Orlando Whitefield, I don't think Kate mentioned, is just a great writer. The prose is really good. It's really evocative. That's an example where the similes just, they don't feel cliché, but they also are just like, oh, yeah, that is the way. Oh, yeah, I know what you're talking about. And it's just constantly that. And the way he links in, you really dive into a couple things.

There's one deal in particular, but there's a couple elongated transactions that are very complex and he sort of unpicks them and you understand how this art world works. But then having that next to this like

deep psychological complexity and these ruminations on art. It was just an astonishing book. I absolutely loved it. Well, I mean, that's why I was asking you if you had a copy. The final thing to say is I think it would make a really good book club book. I think one of the interesting things to discuss is where you come down morally. You know, is this...

in some ways, an attempt to exonerate Philbrick. Because one of the arguments that Whitfield makes is that basically, look at the art world. It's unregulated. It's the Wild West.

Phil Brick obviously took it too far, but the, what's the word, almost like the permissive environment was there to allow him to do this. And in some ways, he's a young man, he's made mistakes. Should he be given a second chance? I think that's sort of one thing. Or on the other hand, do you feel outraged? Like, yeah, this is terrible. Just appalling, privileged people, right?

doing terrible things and deservedly being punished. And of course, the slightly electrifying question, which is Philbrick, I believe, has now served his time and is now out. What is their relationship like now? You can't help but wonder. Very intriguing book. Very intriguing and very good. I highly recommend it.

What a great bookshelf. I feel like I want to read all of these from the pulpy fantasy to all that clitters to cahokia jazz. So listeners, hopefully you do too. Yeah, let us know if you read any of them. And so great to get together with you guys. Yeah, thanks for joining us still. Always a pleasure. Good seeing you guys in that garden.

That's nearly it for this episode. Books mentioned were The Ministry of Time by Callie-Anne Bradley, Cahokia Jazz by Frances Spufford, The Dragon Waiting by John M. Ford, Real Estate by Deborah Levy, and All That Glitters by Orlando Whitfield.

If you're interested in the Serious Readers lamps we mentioned at the top of the show, don't forget you can visit SeriousReaders.com forward slash BCR and use the code BCR for £100 off any HD light. The link is in the show notes or you'll find the details of the episode page on our website, thebookclubreview.co.uk, where you'll also find our archive of over 150 episodes. Try one from the backlist. There are lots of gems.

This episode of The Book Club Review was edited and produced here in London by me, Kate Sotover. If you enjoyed it and want to support me in making more, you can get involved over at patreon.com forward slash the book club review. For a small amount each month, you can sign up to get extra episodes and a weekly bookish email from me. Plus, at the higher tier, you can join a brilliant group of people and talk books with them and me every month at our book club held over Zoom.

This month we're reading Wifedom by Anna Funder, in which she explores the untold story of George Orwell's wife, Eileen O'Shaughnessy, and considers her own role as a writer, wife and mother. I'm so excited to be reading it and I can't wait to discuss it. Come and join us.

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