Ep 456: Timeless meets timely: Anne diagnoses why Ginger loves New England books
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Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogle and this is What Should I Read Next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? This is the show where we take a personalized approach to the reading life, helping you understand why you love what you love, why the book that everyone else raves about just doesn't work for you, and how you can use that information to make choices that make your reading life even better.

Every week we talk all things books and reading, and today I'm so excited to welcome our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community manager, Ginger Horton, back to the podcast to discuss a literary dilemma of her own with me. But first, I want to tell you about our Modern Mrs. Darcy and What Should I Read Next merch we have in our shop right now.

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quince.com slash readnext. Now for today's episode, I'm so excited to welcome Ginger back to the podcast. Now, Ginger and I discussed the origin of this particular episode in more detail in a moment, but here's the short version. She said, Anne, diagnose me. I love books. See you in a minute.

set in New England, but not every book set in New England. I love books set in the fall in New England, but not every book set in the fall. I don't understand why I love what I love, but I know my favorite part of many What Should I Read Next episodes is when you quote unquote diagnose the reader and tell them what's going on in their reading life that they don't yet know, but they're about to find out. Would you do that for me with New England books?

Of course, we had to talk all about it. We had to do it for you. This is such a fun episode. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Let's get to it. Ginger, welcome to the show. I am so glad to be here. This is not my first time, but this was like a really special time.

Well, for years, we talked about how you hadn't been on. Right. Which felt unbelievable to both of us. And now, in comparison, I feel like you're a regular and I love it. And it's...

And it was a lot of pressure that first time because it had built up without me coming on for so long. I felt like there was so much pressure to pick the best books, my favorite books. And I just don't feel that this time because I asked you to have a really specific conversation with me. Wow. The anxiety is meta. I'm sure there's many implications we could draw for readers reading lives. Yep.

All right. Well, who's going to do the honors? If it's okay to totally put you on the spot, as I sometimes do. Readers, if you don't know, Ginger is our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community manager. And I feel like I'm a pantser. And sometimes I'll be like, you know what, Ginger, why don't you tell our readers about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that I give you no warning for. So this is old hat. I don't remember if it was directly to just me or if it was in a team meeting, but you said, hey.

I have this idea for an episode. And would you tell everyone what that was? I would be glad to. Okay, so it was a little bit selfish, I'm not going to lie. So I have this reoccurring theme in my reading life that's been happening for the last couple of years. And I actually pulled two of the books I'm going to talk about today off the shelf and confirmed that yes, a book I had read years ago, a book I'd read this past summer, I've written in the cover margins, which I write in my books, front, back, cover, everywhere. And I've written in the cover margins, which I write in my books, front, back, cover, everywhere.

why do I love New England books so much? And so I had this really specific set of questions for myself. Why am I drawn to these? What is it that I love about these? And I'm going to explain a little bit more about what I mean by New England books, because it's not just the setting.

But I think that it was a box to you and Bailey alone. I think I was just selfishly saying, hey, Anne, my favorite part of what should I read next? I love the books. I love hearing about what the guests love and what they hate and what they're reading lately. But my favorite part is that moment in the middle before you tell them their books that you sort of say, hey, what I'm hearing from you is that you...

really love this, or that you shy away from this, or this thread that I don't think the reader always knows about themselves. And sometimes it just takes some objectivity. Sometimes maybe it takes the pattern noticing. And that I have many skills as a reader and many skills that I've gained as part of being this team and book club and just being a better reader over the years. But this is not one that comes naturally to me. I can't always diagnose why do I like the things I like. And so I think it was a Vox saying, hey, Anne, could you just

kind of diagnosed me on the fly. And then you and Bailey or both of you, I'm not sure who definitely said, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, let's do this thing.

I'm not saying it wasn't also Bailey. Bailey's our chief of staff. She does have the organizationally-minded analytical brain, which I really need as a compliment to mine, which is less so. But I remember definitely being like, oh, that sounds like so much fun. Yes, let's have that conversation. One of you definitely called me out, and I am thrilled about it.

And when you say selfish, I mean, like, we're laughing as you say that. But I do want to highlight that when we feel like something matters and would make a difference in our reading life, like, that's a really fun thread to follow. Like, what I want to hear about from readers, not just as a podcast host, like, if I bump into you on the street, and if I'm standing next to you at the library, and we're reaching for the same book, and we're just having a conversation as strangers who love to read, it's like,

The things that you get excited about, the things that really vex you, the things that you can't figure out, like those are the interesting things to really dig into. And I think something in us knows like, hey, this is like snagging in my brain because somehow it matters. And I think the things we don't understand also circle until like begging us to figure them out. What is it about the diagnosis that feels so...

Listen to all my slashes. Necessary, interesting, useful. Like, is this just good nerdy fun? Or do you feel like...

hey, this would make a real difference in my reading life? Yeah. Well, I asked myself this after you guys said, okay, let's make this an episode. I thought, okay, hold on. Let me take a reflective pause. Is this more fun for me to be kind of optimizing my reading life to not just get better at which books I'm picking? I think we would all answer a resounding yes to that. But to really be honing in so specifically to find out what I like, to find out the patterns, to find out why I like it. And my answer was absolutely.

It is more fun for me and I think for a lot of readers. I want to know why I like what I like, certainly to pick better books, but also so that I can be looking for those things while I'm reading. That is good nerdy fun, but that to me is part of the great conversation. I always talk about how one of the reasons I love reading is because I'm part of a conversation. So

Certainly with fellow readers that are reviewing books, talking about books, I can press them into my best friend's hand or in the case of one of my books, my best friend pressed it into my hand this past summer. But also with the authors, sometimes I will have met these people like a book club author that's on this list. And sometimes I doubt I ever will. But I feel like I know, you know, Alice, my dear friend, Alice, there's a hint for you.

Yes, I think I'm tracking. I think you referenced that we are often too close to our own reading lives to see those patterns that are more evident to someone who's not in our brains with us. Yes.

Ginger, I'm wondering, have there been any revelations you've heard other readers hear on the show or just friends talking to you about books where they've said, hey, this is something I figured out that has made you go, oh.

Yes, for sure. So one example that springs to mind, we talked about this in book club. I've talked about this with my own mom and I did not realize that not every reader was the same. But when you hear about people saying, I love to read about unlikable characters or I really cannot read a book where I can't root for one of the characters.

Sometimes I tend to universalize my experience. So I think, oh, it's human nature to love to read about despicable characters. No, no, that's not human nature. That's what Ginger loves. And so to have learned that is such a fun revelation for me. I love when it happens because...

oh yes, me too. I loved that book as well. That was so great. It's really fun. But I have a little strand of a contrarian in me and I also really enjoy when there is a distinctiveness where you say, oh, you love reading about unlikable characters? Yuck. Oh, you know, that is, we try not to say yuck around here, but that is

so not my thing. I find that really fun. In case it's not clear, we really welcome respectful dissenters in book club. And so one of the reasons that I figured out that this was such a specific strand in my reading life was from this summer.

when we read a book that was firmly set in New England. And I had written in the back cover of my book, like I mentioned, why do I love... Here's the exact quote. I just opened the book. Why do I love New England books? Question mark, question mark, star. And didn't say a thing about it. I came to book club, didn't say a thing about it. And someone in the forum said...

well, why do I so dislike books that in New England bore me? You know, kind of something along those lines. And I thought, yes, that I love when that happens. I think that that is a lot of fun and interesting.

I mean, sometimes it's reassuring to know we are having a universal human experience. But sometimes it's really fun to go, oh, like that's unique to me. That is my experience. And it sets me apart. And also, gosh, it might be great for my reading life. I might find some more good books that I really, really love if I can understand that better. Yes, absolutely.

Okay, so your thing that you've realized is not universal is New England books. Is it too soon to ask what is that book you're talking about? They got a question mark, question mark star. I've got to figure this out. I am happy to say that that book was Day's work. So we read this, this book,

fall, actually. We read this in September as our official pick. I was reading it in the summer because I'm often a minute ahead in book club to prepare for the author chats. But we talked with authors Chris Batchelder and Jennifer Habel. They're a married couple. Delightful. They read to us. It was

fantastic. But the reading experience of the book, I just felt immersed. Of course, the subject matter, it's about Melville, I would say is the short answer, but it is about so much more than Melville. It's about his life. It's about his work. It's about his family. It's about quiet days. The day's work is a huge theme in the novel. And novel itself is even, I mean, it says a novel on the front cover, but that was a conversation. That was a question for us. It felt so real. I

Many of our readers did not realize it was fiction. Even some of our questions surrounding the author talk, a lot of our members said, okay, okay, but is it really real? Can you tell us which parts were happening in your own life? Because it's about a marriage and two writers writing together in a relationship. So I just loved everything about it. And it felt firmly set in New England. But what I loved about it wasn't that they were saying, you know, the craggy coast and the sunset, like it wasn't the setting.

as much as it was the feeling, if that makes sense.

Yes. Okay, my full notes from the author talk are upstairs. I was just looking at them last night, coincidentally. I think I was trying to think of what to write next and my eyes lit on my notes from our conversation. I just read them all. But how it's about creative partnerships and creativity and also about many authors who've written in the last 300 years, or I think even going back further, and their creative partnerships. Yes.

Okay, so craggy coasts mean something to you setting-wise, but it's definitely more than a physical location in place. It is. It's very often not less than that. But okay, so let me tell you about another book that I had to remind myself where this was set when I was looking for books that I was going to bring here today to talk about. This is not one on my very favorites list, but this was a strong contender because I love Search by Michelle Honeyvin. And

And that felt in my mind, that was a New England book in my mind. I was lumping that together. That took place in Southern California. Let me tell you how surprised I was to find out that that was in SoCal because it feels like in that setting, there should be sod and leaves on the ground. And there was kind of a draft running through the rooms that this church search committee was meeting at. And there was not, there were no drafts in SoCal, I'm assuming, but there were potlucks and there was community and there was a little bit of

of heaviness as they were embarking on this really serious search to find a pastor for their congregation. So it felt like a New England novel to me. So that's why I can't stress enough. It does not have to be set in Massachusetts for it to count in my mind, though that helps.

But I find that there's this feeling that I'm searching for. I keep thinking we are talking in November, and this is actually the perfect month because November feels like New England to me. I don't know why, but it just does. Probably there's some pilgrims. There's probably some school day stuff going on around in there, but that's the vibe. All right.

Here's what I think we want to do today. I have so much commentary on search that I'm going to try to hold and remember for later in our conversation. But with the understanding that so many readers have things about their reading life, like they have questions that they can articulate to themselves or questions that have yet to be articulated. Like they don't even know what they don't know often about their reading lives. I'm sure there's something I don't even know about my reading life.

And I also have these nagging questions that I've been talking over with you to an extent to figure out. Like we've been talking about memoir and novels and stories and me trying to tease out why one genre often hits different than another, but there's some exceptions. So what's going on here? You know, I have my own stuff I'm working out.

What I'd like to do is talk through your specific theories and explorations about New England books, because I know you have them. I do. You told me that Bailey was teasing you at our last team meeting that I wasn't at, which like how many team meetings have I missed over the last 10 years? Like two? But you said that she was teasing you, that it sounds like you figured it out. But you haven't quite put your finger on it, but you do see the point that you have some common threads. So I'd like to hear about those today. Yes.

And listeners, I want you to hear the kinds of questions that Ginger is asking herself, the stuff that she knows, and the stuff that she feels like is yet unknown, because in the specific is found the universal. And of course, we're going to talk about lots of books along the way, books that have been exactly right for you, Ginger, books that have been close enough to make you go, okay, this is actually pointing me toward...

my answer because it seemed like this was going to fit, but it didn't. And that gives me an important piece of data. And then I'm sure lots of book recommendations are going to come out of my mouth as well.

That sounds good to me. Because I have thoughts. And then I do have a working theory as to how I think I would encapsulize why you love these New England books. And we'll see if I still want to hold to it in 20 minutes. And then we'll see if you think it feels true to your experience. Well, you know, what I learned in school is the scientific method is that you cannot...

really know if a theory is true or not, unless you've applied it. So I think that this just means I have to go read some more after this conversation today, which I am definitely here for. Whether it pans out or not, I think the win is that I get to read some books. Go forth and read, of course. And also, you've already done a lot of reading. I have. I have. Okay, so here's my question. Should I tell you the main books that are kind of my New England canon first and then tell you why? Oh, yes. I

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The New England canon to me, and I've given this some thought, is probably essentially three books I love and one book I did not love. So it fits in this formula really beautifully. Maybe now this is just how my brain has been liturgized and this is how I think about books. But the canon is Day's Work by Jennifer Bethel. Did you just use liturgy as a verb? Oh, yes. Yes.

I love it. Okay. Probably. Carry on. So I did. Day's Work by Chris Gottschelder and Jennifer Habel. Fellowship Point by Alice Elliott Dark. And if I'm allowed to slip in her short stories, I must because I, of course, went to seek out her other writings. And yes, In the Gloaming is...

Also firmly in canon. So basically Alice Elliot darks person and count the ways by Joyce Maynard. This is the one that I mentioned a few minutes ago that my best friend actually thrust into my hands this summer. I was unsure about it. And I even boxed her at 75% and, and I said, uh,

please tell me how this is going to end. I'm actually asking you to tell me how this is going to end because if it doesn't end like I need it to, I'm going to abandon it right now. And yet, and it didn't end like I wanted it to, but she did something even more satisfying. So this is my first Joyce Maynard. I hear that she even has a follow-up to Count the Ways, but I have not read it yet. This was my first and it was just right. I suspect she is very right. And then also in canon,

I think Walton by Henry David Thoreau is certainly in the canon. I did not like it much. It is correct. It is the vibes, the feel, the setting, the writing. It just wasn't my cup of tea. Turns out I'm not a big Thoreau fan, just as a person. That is okay. Do you know what it was that didn't hit? I do. And I hate to say this, but...

Okay, no, I don't hate to say this, because I think one of my theories is that most of these books are quite female-centric. I think there was just too much man in Walden for me. I love the female-centric dynamic of the relationships, particularly with Alice Elliot Dark, the female friendships, the community.

mentioning search a minute ago, it was very female driven. And I think that comes with broad brushes here, broad stereotypes here, but a softness. I think it comes with a real prioritization of those communities, those relationships. So one of the things that I think about with the New England novels are this beautiful, lush settings. And again, I don't mean just the coast and describing that, but there is an aspect of nature writing that

And yet it is not rural at all. It is very inhabited. There are tons of people, life, community. It doesn't feel like you're hiking in the woods alone. It feels like you're hiking in the woods with your best friend. Ringing in my ears is what I just said about my exploration that I have forced you to become a part of about memoir versus fiction. Okay. But Walden, I mean...

It's a diary of his time in the woods by himself. You don't have, I mean, it's not like there aren't themes and it's not like stuff doesn't happen, but it's a fundamentally different work. Very true. Okay. Just like put that in the cooker. It's cooking. Okay. It's in the pot. Yes.

Okay, Ginger, you told us a little bit about our book club selection, Day's Work, and what it's about. Would you tell us a little more about Fellowship Point and Count the Ways? Now, some readers know Fellowship Point because it was a summer reading guide selection in, was that 2023? I think it was 2022. Okay. I read it in 2022, according to my Goodreads. Which I described to many readers as the octogenarian book.

multi-decade lifetime friendship love story set in Boston and Maine that you didn't know, that you desperately needed to read. So we have talked about Fellowship Point in these parts, but Ginger, what would you say it's about? Yes, it is definitely about that friendship. That is the crux of it. And things happen, certainly, but the primary tension, the primary catalyst for any movement in the story is the push and pull between

the women friends and then their communities and how those intertwine. There is an author, a children's author. There is a little girl that comes into the story and her father. This is funny because in the front, I definitely also wrote an

an almost perfect book for me, is New England somehow my heart home? And so again, Fellowship Point plays a huge part in the novel, the actual community. They are...

warring is too strong of a word, but there's a tug about what's going to happen with Fellowship Point after the lives of these people that live there now and what that's going to go into in the future. It feels like someone from an older time could have written this. And yet, yeah, I had to go back and look myself that it was only written in 2022. That surprised me. It really does, doesn't it? Okay. Thank you for that. And what about Count the Ways?

Count the Ways was maybe a little bit more action on the page, but it starts kind of alone. This has got the best of both worlds. So there's this character. She is moving into the woods, into a little cabin by herself. You start by falling in love with this person who's had a little bit of an unexpected windfall success before.

you know, I just now noticed we've got another children's book author. I'm not saying that authors have to be in these books, but all three of these have writers on the page. And I'm just now noticing that. Yeah. I didn't clock that on the first go. Yeah. Goodness. See, this is why talking in conversation with other readers and experts like yourself is really helpful. Um,

But yes, so she's had a little bit of a windfall. A bestseller book allows her to buy this sort of cabin in the woods, her dream homestead. And then she falls in love and has children and has neighbors. And those intersections is really when the novel came alive to me. Hard things happen on the page. It's not a soft and easy book.

That's when I boxed my best friend and I said, okay, you're going to need to tell me, does this X, Y, Z happen? Because I was so stressed out at one point. So it was a page turner in that way. It wasn't totally quiet. There were things that were happening. If I hadn't been reading on my Kindle, I might've been tempted to throw the book across the room, but the Kindle's way too precious for that.

So, yeah, it was about the thick relationships, certainly about the setting. I don't think this book would have been the same if she had lived... To me, it wouldn't have been the same if she had lived in a suburb and her neighbor changed her flat tire and her husband... Oh, it's so hard to talk about this without giving away the plot. Her husband embarks in relationships that crossed with her. And so I don't think it would have been the same if people were living in...

house in the suburbs. So the setting was certainly important to that novel. Okay. Those are your canon books. Could we round out the picture of the kind of books that have shown themselves to have what you're looking for?

with some other like quick hits? Yes, absolutely. So I read this summer based on the summer reading guide, The Editor, which is about the editing life of Judith Jones. That was not a memoir, but it was kind of an, someone else was writing her memoir, I guess. Certainly someone else was writing about this really specific part of her life. And I love the setting. A scrappy, pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you reject the help of your wealthy parents, make your own way in the world, forge your own path. Okay. Exactly. Yep, yep, yep.

But I had such a fun time going down the rabbit trail of the books that she had also published, which included the L.L. Bean book of new New England cookery. I actually tracked down a copy of that on eBay. So it led me to other books as well. A Piece of the World. We read this years ago in book club by Christina Baker Klein.

That is almost just right. I have to mention Little Women since I threw Walden under the bus, her neighbor, Little Women. And I really loved the latest Orchard House documentary on PBS. I also, as long as we're throwing movies in here, I should mention Alice Elliot Dark's story, short story, In the Gloaming was turned into a movie with Glenn Close. And that is also canon to me when I think about the shots of them sitting

on the family lake in the Adirondack chairs. I mean, that is canon in my mind. Robert Frost's poetry, of course, fits in nicely there.

I suspect that John Irving would totally fit this bill, but I have not read him. So I'm sorry to say he's kind of in my, the covers of his books are in my canon, but the content of his books are not. And then also I've got to throw in Duchess Goldblatt. Becoming Duchess Goldblatt is a funny memoir of sorts that we read. And I can't quite figure out how this fits in, but it totally does in my head. It's got some humor.

But it is a quiet story, a pretty introspective story. There's community there. So I'm firmly confident that the community part is a huge piece in this puzzle. Okay, so I'm noticing that Search and Becoming Duchess Goldblatt, while not set in New England, have the same characteristics that you know and love in your New England books.

Yes. Part of that is that I was really trying to find ones that didn't fit in that world to maybe prove to myself or prove to the other readers that it doesn't have to be set in a certain place in time, but it can be. And also to slightly differentiate. So what I'm not looking for, what I've determined in my own mind that this is not...

Dark Academia, because I'm on record as loving Dark Academia, loving campus novels. But I feel like I know how to find those. And often they are set in New England. They're set on a leaf sodden campus.

up in New England. But that's not what I'm after. A lot of times that quietness comes from a foreboding sense of doom, and that is not what I'm after. So I wanted to point out a few that have that same soft feel, but are not set in the quote unquote, right or wrong place.

That's helpful. You also had a list called adjacent, but not quite right, which I think is where we're really going to be able to refine what it is that truly does work for you for New England books. Would you share some of those with us?

So I love the Love Walked In series by Marissa De Los Santos. She's got three or four that fit into that world. And it does have the community aspect for sure. They're a little too lighthearted for what I'm after. Are they also maybe a little too sweet?

A little too sweet. Exactly that. Okay. Correlation is not causation, but they're also Southern. They're not New England. Yep. Yep. Yep. I grew up in the South, so that is my true home, but I've spent a lot of my time now on the East Coast. I'm married to a Navy man. We end up spending a lot of summers in New England just because that's where he often needs training. We live in Virginia now, which I would say is Southern, but it's got some New England vibes. Yeah.

And so I think that there is a part of me that feels like the South is my childhood and maybe New England is my adulthood. And so I want those to feel a bit more mature. I love Marissa De Los Santos. I'm a completist. She is one of my favorite authors.

But there is a real lightheartedness to that that I feel like, again, I know how to find. The Mitford books are beloved to me. Those take place in North Carolina. Yes, Marisa De Los Santos. I could go on. Southern writers, such a heart home. But that's not what I'm after today. Well, and let's clarify. You can love those with your entire readerly heart.

And also, they can be their own thing. Yes, absolutely. Exactly. Okay. Tell us more about adjacent but not quite right.

Another one that firmly fits in to the setting is Unlikely Animals. You could not get a better setting. So it is just right. The historic vibes, there is a character there that is based on a real life historic man who set up a club. It could not be more perfect, but it was a little too zany. And so while that was a blast, so much fun to read.

I'm not looking for sweetness. I'm not looking for zaniness. Similarly, of course, the one that's going to come to everyone's mind is Ellen Hildebrand. The Hotel Nantucket was the greatest setting I can imagine. But this is a summer version. And I don't want that bright sunshine sort of intruding on. Instead of swirling leaves on a crisp blue day, I want that gray overhangy leaf sodden day.

So that one wasn't quite right. I already mentioned some of the dark academia, Jason titles like the secret history. Again, I love that a separate piece. I love that book. But,

but I'll just go through some titles and try not to give any more commentary. No, no, no. I want commentary. I specifically want to hear about the Dearly Beloved and Crossing to Safety. Yep. Those were really, really close. Dearly Beloved and Crossing to Safety. In fact, Crossing to Safety has some of the academics, but keeps it soft. Again, community is very central to the story. I think because most of the action takes place

to the people. So I think that one of the

the vibes that I'm after is more interior conflict. Crossing the safety, most of the conflict does come out in the personal relationships. And so as I'm almost trying to diagnose myself here, I'm noticing when the comfort comes from the outside and the conflict comes from the inside, that is a difference to me versus when the conflict comes from the outside. That's the same with Dearly Beloved. They are dealing with really hard

things. Those parents, and once again, we've got pastors in this story, they are dealing with hard things in their family, hard things in their congregation. And I'm noticing that that might be a theme rather than exterior conflicts. I'm looking for more interior conflicts. Haven Point was really close. It might have just been a little bit too far

pop for me. And by that, I mean, like pop culture was a little bit more of a page turner that could delve into the realm of contemporary fiction or women's contemporary fiction, which again, has its place just like Ellen Hildebrand, Flying Solo by Linda Holmes, so much fun. But the Late Bloomers Club, Flying Solo, those are so

so much fun and yet a little too much fun. I might want a tear to come to my eye in these, although I'm not a big actual crier. Let's go back to your theories. So you've been working on theories that really coalesce. These are the characteristics of these books I love. And I think your list started with Highbrow. So tell us about what you've been thinking.

So I do notice that these are firmly literary fiction. I know that that is my sweet spot. That is my bread and butter. When I get away from that in my own reading life, I feel the loss. And so I have no qualms or problems saying, yeah, I'm a little snobbish in my reading life. There is a strand that I'm worried about in the bookish world with the very, very positive

positive development of no snobbishness, no shame in what we're reading. And yay, I applaud that. Everybody read everything they want to and be happy about it.

I also worry that there's a tiny bit of anti-intellectualism, that we cannot say that one book is finer, better written, a good book, maybe even a great book. I don't think we'll know in our lifetime what's going to become a classic, but certainly some of the books that I read today hopefully will stand the test of time. Now, that does not mean that on an airport ride, I want to read something that does not fall into the category of potential great books, students studying this 200 years from now.

the bread and butter of my reading life. I really want to be something that I could study in a classroom if I somehow, you know, lived or have a time machine and I traveled 200 years. So that might mean a little bit of studious vibes where there's themes and motifs, symbolism, that kind of thing. There might be a historic strand in that you cannot detect that this is firmly in its place in time. Maybe a cell phone shows up on the page, but it's certainly not central that there's like a technology aspect. Yeah.

yeah, I don't mind being a little bit snobbish in my reading life. And I don't mind saying that

Well, you know what this makes me think of is all the conversations we have about choosing our Modern Mrs. Darcy book club selection. Something that we're constantly coming back to is discussability. Like how far can the conversation go besides, I liked it, or I don't know, I just kind of didn't. Like what can we talk about? And that means there have to be like themes and layers and intrigue and robustly drawn characters. And I think when you say...

It has to be something you could study in a classroom. I mean, what I'm hearing is all those things we've talked about, about discussability. Yes. I, in my real life, am trying to... I have a sweet tooth. I am trying to eat and enjoy all the food that I eat, but maybe I'm trying to inject a little bit more fiber in my diet. That may not sound so appetizing, but most of my diet should be composed of plants and proteins, and maybe I can leave the

Swiss cake rolls on the shelf a little longer. All right. So that analogy is under development, but gotcha. Okay. What else? What are the other characteristics that you have been toying with?

I've mentioned that these are generally quiet. I am not needing to turn the page. In fact, if I can sit and linger with the page and the pen in my hand, and I can't quite turn the page yet because I need to think about that beautiful passage. That goes into what I mentioned is that, of course, there's beautiful, lush settings, but often there is beautiful, lush writing. Some people hear beautiful writing and they're like,

and they are totally turned off. And I get that. If I hear beautiful writing, give it to me. Let me pick that up. I mentioned that they're often female-centric. Here is the closest working theory that I have come down to when I said that Fellowship Point could have been written at a different time. It's sort of like those old classic George Eliot novels, Edith Wharton novels. So there might be some

some British tradition there, but with a firm American accent. British with an American accent. That's the closest working theory that I can come to. Then there's the seasonality that you've also wondered about. For sure. Yes. It's going to help if this book is set in the colder months, probably. Not to say, I believe that Fellowship Point actually takes place over the course of enough time that there is spring on the page.

I'm not opposed to a Nantucket novel where there's sand in your toes and a beach chair, but I'm usually looking for something that would feel very comfortable cozied up on the couch with me in, say, November to March time.

Yeah. And you know what I keep thinking of when you mentioned Ellen Hildebrand, which you have several times and for good reason because of the setting of those books. But I think of that Emily St. John Mandel throwaway quote in The Glass Hotel where she says, money is its own country. Oh, yeah, that's right. Which kind of reminds me of...

One of the things I love about The Dark Academia is one of the hallmarks, and we learned this from our Dark Academia class in book club. This was fascinating to me where we had experts. And one of the themes of those novels that I do love is when old money collides with

new money or no money is what they say. Those tensions are often really appealing to me to read about on the page. And it does not have to be about the funds in the bank. It can be about, yeah, sort of the haves and have nots, the insider versus the outsider. There's a reason that they say that a lot of children's books are written about orphans because you need someone who's kind of on the outside to come inside and be...

our proxy, our guide. And so I often feel at home in books that are exploring the tensions between those settings. Okay. So Ginger, let's coalesce. And I'll share my unified theory of Ginger's reading life as it pertains to New England novels. But I feel like I should share my bona fides or lack thereof. So I was born and raised in Louisville, Kentucky, which we say as Louisville.

Which is a little bit of a no man's land. Like I grew up a UofL basketball fan. We can play east, south, northwest, like they'll put us anywhere. We are covered by Southern Unliving, but our tea is most definitely not sweet. I can see Indiana from my window. I've only been to Connecticut. Like I've never been to Vermont or Maine or Massachusetts yet, but I want to go.

And also I've read widely and I feel like I have a very clear idea of what you are talking about. I also have a long history with British literature.

I feel like you're eminently qualified to talk to me about this because anyone who's been a lot of places on the page, I think has been a lot of places. I have to say a few more words about my current home and likely to be my home for a long, long time. I live in Northern Virginia right now. And one of the reasons that I love Virginia so much, I'm also a Kentucky girl, though Anne and I did not know each other when I grew up in Kentucky as well, is that I feel like Virginia has all the things. Virginia has all the things.

Virginia is a little bit Southern. It's a little bit East coast. It's a little bit New England. It's a little bit big city because of our proximity to DC and some other large cities. And so I often say that Virginia has become my heart home. In fact, I like to remind people that Kentucky used to be a part of Virginia. So basically I've been from the same state my whole life.

That's very creative. Right? It's a stretch, but I'll take it. I never claim to be geographically... You're the boss of your reading life, Ginger. That's right. But all that to say, when you were mentioning that I love Southern novels, that I love novels that maybe have some of that pop, maybe novels that have some of that bright sunshine as well. I think that's indicative of my love for my current home, Virginia. But

I do think that almost any kind of reading life is very at home in this very diverse state. And the state of mind that I'm in is not not connected to me being here now. Yes. And something worth highlighting is that

When it comes to New England novels, we are both voyeurs. Like as much as we may or may not know them. And I imagine that that's a large part of the appeal for many readers who find that they love reading about a place that's not their own. I love reading a novel set in Louisville or in Kentucky because I read it differently. Like Lee Cole's Groundskeeping has this whole interlude that

And I'm like, okay.

And that's a different kind of enjoyment than reading about a place that you have a different relationship with, one that has a lot less personal knowledge and a lot more curiosity. Yes, yes. I love to travel on the page. I'm such a homebody that sometimes that's my favorite way to travel. And as I mentioned, being a Navy wife, at this point when people do ask us, where are y'all from?

That is a complicated answer. I think you mean conversation starter. Right, right, right. It always feels like a bit of a lie when someone says, where are y'all moving from? And I say, oh, we just moved from Hawaii. And that feels like the least from a place I've ever been. And yet, nor does Charleston, South Carolina, or even Memphis, Tennessee, where I spent a good bit of my teenage years.

I think some of that is that there are very few books, in my experience, or very few fiction books about Lexington, Kentucky, which is up the road from Louisville, where Anne's at. There are lots of nonfiction books about horse country and racing, those sorts of things, but there's not a lot of fiction there. And while I love a good Southern Gothic, I love reading about the South as place, they do that really, really well.

I don't get quite as much from my actual home. So that could be part of it, but I've got to live vicariously. And that's what we're here for.

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When Modern Mrs. Darcy was launched back in 2011, I bet you weren't expecting this. I wasn't expecting this at first either. I didn't have like a niche, but I knew I wanted to write about the intersection of the timeless, those things that are true about humanity, and the timely. What do those things mean for us right here, right now? And I think this intersection of timeless and timely is really key in your Love of New England book.

Now, they're specific to a time and place, but this idea that these books are grounded. Like, your characters are wrestling with issues that matter deeply in their own lives and to people because they are fundamentally human issues.

And they're doing so in a place that is steeped in history, that is steeped in culture, where the people living there aren't just living their lives, but they are living a way of life. And when I say the people living there, I mean in the pages of your novels. And I think when they are not living a way of life, when they are not firmly set against the history and backdrop, either implied or very, very explicit of the place where they are,

it doesn't make your list. It gets close, but not quite. Like, like writers and lovers. Yeah. Her family history is very important, but Boston, Massachusetts, and New England, not so much. Like some of the key scenes happen in Spain. So not so much for you. The Late Bloomers Club,

You've got that small town community feel it matters, but it matters right now. There's less of what came before and how does it impact the way we live today.

Crossing the safety, there's way too much Wisconsin. Way too much. Wisconsin and the West are coming into conflict with Vermont. And the people really struggling, like the conflict there comes from the way of life and the New England values. It is like an external force upon the book. It's not the crux of the matter. New England culture becomes an antagonist in that story.

Also, I think it's so interesting that you love books with like money and class and status that look a certain way, like the Ellen Hildebrand novels. And also, didn't you really love Pineapple Street? I did. Yeah, that's a good point. Not a New England novel. No. But in part, not a New England novel because in these stories, like the wealth isn't flashy.

Like education whispers. The people are very much into staying out of other people's lives and business. And yet, you know everything that's going on, which is like really juicy material for fiction. But in these pages, like there is status for sure. And you hinted at how you see that at play in your love of dark academic works.

But it comes from different things than it would in, say, New York City. And I think it's less transparent. And I think that makes it more interesting on the page. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.

For Timeless and Timely, I also keep thinking of a conversation I participated in in a COVID era Jane Austen Society of North America festival event that's hosted at Locust Grove, the Regency House, almost on the river in Louisville, Kentucky. But I did a panel with Deborah Yaffe, who wrote a great book about Jane Austen fandom and its history.

And also Sonia Kamal, who wrote a book called Unmarriageable. And one of the things we talked about was what makes a Jane Austen reimagining good today? What makes it work? Like, what are the essential elements you have to have? And...

What can that look like? And one of the things that Deborah Yaffe pointed out, really looking at Sonia Kamal's work, was that today, many, many, many of the retellings are set in cultures where the social rules, the social structure is stricter than it is, say, in Louisville, Kentucky or the D.C. suburbs in Northern Virginia.

Well, that reminds me of one of my favorite Austin retellings, Pride by E.B. Saboy. And I thought that was one that did it so well. I'm on record as usually reading, but often hating retelling. I'm just a firm...

exception to the rule because I think she did that so well, exactly that. It's not the outer trappings. It's those inward unwritten rules that you have to be inside the character's head somehow to understand just what it means for, like in Austin's case, for him to have touched her hand in a certain way during a dance. And E.B. Zaboy was able to somehow put the tension of a genderfying neighborhood

on the page. We got in the characters' heads through their actions and through their relationships. And I've been on record as saying that is hands down my favorite retelling. Not a New England book. Not a New England book at all. But in that book, the backdrop is the stability and viability of the neighborhood is being threatened by external forces. That's right. Interesting. Okay. So as you and I have talked about

your New England theories and what it might mean for you. I keep bringing up Ann Leary's The Good House. And I think something that here, the readers don't know. Have you read this? Have you not? I have not read this. You keep telling me about it and I suspect I will love it. Ginger. Okay. Here's what you need to know about The Good House.

The character's name is Hildy Good. Oh, yeah. Her name has deep meaning to her fellow small town, Massachusetts. She lives on Boston's North Shore. The houses are all 100 years old. And her family has lived there for generations. Not just like three, like going back a long, long time. Yeah.

The thing I really want you to know is that her ex refers to the nearest grocery store as the stop and shop of the seven gables, which I think really exemplifies what you want in your books. Like Hawthorne, it's got history. And also people got to buy groceries at the stop and shop. And I feel like that's what you're looking for in a nutshell. Also, you're just like tossing off like Hawthorne references as like Burns references.

That's funny. And for you, that's for you. Exactly. There's lots of small town intrigues and there's lots of characters subverting both the never articulated, but definitely well-known and understood by all societal expectations of

But also there are some ethical dilemmas that are not gray. They are very black and white. And so for those things to be violated in the town is the source of serious gossip. Also, Hildy has a drinking problem.

And it is her problem. And something that I think Anne Leary does so well is exploring Hildy's conversations with herself and in her interior life, in her history, and also her rationalization about enjoying her glass of wine or two or three or five. I mean, you watch her fall apart and her life fall apart.

And also because it's happening in a small community. It's happening to Hildy, but it's happening to everyone. Everyone knows. Everyone feels like. I mean, you mind your own business, but it is their business. Her life is their business. Hildy is dealing with her own very interior personal problem. And also the focus is on so much more than Hildy because her story is much bigger than herself. There's a lot of layers you could pick apart in the classroom here.

That sounds right up my alley. I don't know why I haven't read this, especially because the last episode I was on was entitled Ginger, Don't Save the Good Stuff. I don't think my name was in the title, but it was called Don't Save the Good Stuff, and that has become a bit of a motto for me. So I need to not keep this one in my back pocket anymore. It even lives on my Kindle, and I know it's there. I know it's been on Kindle deals before. I've bought it. It lives in my actual home. No excuses. Well, every time we talk about it, I think, why haven't we read this in book club yet?

Seriously, there you go. That might solve one problem that's for tomorrow's team meeting. I'm just kidding. There are also books that I think are adjacent, but not exactly. And, you know, this is for you to suss out, but like Jason Reculix, The Last One at the Wedding, has a lot of these elements involved.

minus the, could you study this in the classroom? Highly entertaining. This is your entertaining New England read, not your canon New England read. Okay. I don't even know that one. I don't think. It's new. We talked about it in the fall book preview. Okay. Then it's on my radar, but it didn't make it onto my TBR list. So that's exciting.

The protagonist's daughter gets married. She marries a Boston tech billionaire son. She invites her estranged father to be part of the celebration. And so he starts to get to know the family and see what his estranged daughter has been up to, is up to these days. And the more he finds out, the weirder it gets. It's got a lot of wealth and class stuff in it.

But also money is its own country. So it's set in New England. And also the locals are kind of at war with the billionaire's family when it comes to the enclave where they live outside the city. I like the sound. It reminds me of the central tension in Fellowship Point. Yes.

Yeah. I see that. I see that. J. Courtney Sullivan is one that I know you and I have talked about recently, including the summer reading guide pick, The Cliffs. I don't think this is 100% canon for you, but I think it's 98% canon. I think the engagements is very much along the lines of what you're looking for. History going back 100 years centered around one diamond ring.

And four different individuals, well, couples who come into contact with the ring. I wonder about Florence Adler Swims Forever, also not canon. And I wonder about Elizabeth Stroud.

I have read a good bit of Elizabeth Stroup, who... I don't feel like this is it, but do you know why? I don't know why, because every... So Donna on our team loves her, and I keep thinking, it's me. I was in a weird mood. Maybe I... I don't know why. I keep picking her up, thinking it just wasn't that one. Maybe that was the one that doesn't fit me. And I have read...

enough of Elizabeth Stroud to say she is not for me. And the only thing I can think of, and I don't know if this metaphor is going to break down as it's coming out of my mouth, but the leaves feel dry and crackly in Elizabeth Stroud, and I need those sodden leaves. I don't know what it is, but her writing always seems, and I know people love her, and I can tell she is fantastic. This kind of goes back to the W.H. Alden. It is me, not her. She is a fantastic writer. But it always leaves me feeling

a little dry. It doesn't feel rich to me. It feels affected. And so that beautiful, lush writing always ends up kind of scratching me somehow. And I'm not sure why. I have never been able to figure that out, but I've stopped reading her because I thought, okay, you've read enough. I will say, Oh, William on audio is the one that made me go, wait, I get it now. Okay. So maybe I need to try a different format. Yes.

because I've only read her on the page. Let's give it a go, Nadia. Kimberly Farr read that one. She's read a fair amount, but not all of her work. She was amazing. That could have been just the right book at the right time for me. I still don't feel like it's squarely new. Well, a lot of that one takes place in Manhattan, but that's the one that made me go, how soon does her next book come out? I need it in my hands immediately. I love that though. In my mind, she is so

somewhere in the Willa Cather O'Pioneers. Is Elizabeth Stroud writing in New England?

She's a Mainer. A ton of her books are set in Maine, especially her most recent ones. Okay. And then if you go back to Bob Burgess and like the Burgess boys, Amy and Isabel, those are Maine stories. Okay. Maybe I need to try something with the right setting on audio because I have had that experience before where a different format can really, even as much as reading on my Kindle versus a physical book.

It can change things for me. I'm willing to give her another try. And I had wondered, you mentioned J. Courtney Sullivan, the one that I keep meaning to read as main because obvious reasons. But you mentioned specifically the cliffs and the engagements. So I'm making a note of those as well.

To be clear, all those books on my adjacent but not quite right books are books I've loved. So this is not to say I only like books that are 100% accurate. All those books that I mentioned are ones that are probably five stars for me, at least four, probably five for most of those. But also, when you're trying to identify this one thing, they're not helping you. That's right. Okay.

Have you been in Northwoods? I have not. That's such a striking cover. I feel like this is quintessential New England and also not quite what you're looking for. So Northwoods is a novel told in interlocking short stories. And the connector is that all the stories go back to the inhabitants of one specific house in western Massachusetts.

from the Puritan era and then over the course of many centuries. And this was so powerful.

interesting. The writing was so... Is a nerdy nerd? It's so fascinating. The way that the stories loop and overlap is ingenious. There are strong epistolary components throughout. I know you really enjoy that. Some of the threads have a strong emotional pull, but something I've really articulated in my reading life the past few years is that I love novels that have deep emotional resonance.

And I don't think that's here, like not the story as a whole. And I'm wondering how much of a component that is for you. You know, and I mentioned earlier, I don't shed a lot of tears. I'm not a big emotive reader. I'm not a big crier in my regular life, but I used to be able to say I can count on one hand how many books have made me cry. I added a book in recent years. So it's six books. This is how few in my entire life.

And so I don't think it's that important to me because it doesn't have a deep effect on me. But I really do love reading interconnected, especially intergenerational stories. The one that sprung to my mind that I really enjoyed in the last few years is The Overstory by Richard Powers. And I know that was not people's cup of tea because it was a huge part on the page. But I really loved that. So that feels like a really...

I haven't read it yet, but yeah, that sounds like it's right in the circle of what I'm looking for, at least. I think if you know that John Irving is in that wheelhouse, I wonder what's keeping you from picking it up. Please do and report back.

The Cider House Rules is the one that jumps out at me. I mean, I'm not a John Irving completist, but that's the one that jumps out at me. Ginger, that might be solely because of the peak New England fall cover photo. Like, that's really possible. His covers have been living in my canon for a long time, even if I've not read a word of him. So I think his marketers are definitely doing their job.

Yeah. And then to kind of like push the bounds of what belongs in your New England canon, I wonder about Richard Russo, especially something like Empire Falls, which is a story about a blue-collar town whose best days are behind it. Small town intrigue. Everybody knows everybody's business. This would be an amazing one to talk over with a good book club. This is a crispy leaves book.

Maybe we can just define it like that. Okay. So it's not canon. Okay. But also defining the bounds. You could definitely go there. Please read The Good House.

I definitely will. So we can talk about it. Absolutely. No, I mean, not only do these all sound good, I think you're right. I think there is some real value. There certainly was for me as I was thinking about this conversation, that adjacent but not quite right list was almost as valuable to me. In fact, I think most of the theories came out of me going, yeah, but not that. Yeah, but not that. Yeah, but not that. So I think you're right about finding out what's inside and what's outside. It's valuable.

And I wonder if the reason that these don't hit so hard for you is because from an outsider, it appears to me that New England culture is more nuanced and more subtle than, say, Southern culture. Yes. Which overlaps nicely with what you already enjoy in books, generally speaking. Yep.

When you said the particular becomes the universal, I think that's a big crux of it, that it's so easy from any time you're sitting on an outside of any group. This is a good life lesson, not just a book lesson, but it's easy to paint all books with one brush. So, you know, New England is so not a monolith. I know that. But being an outsider, I see similarities. I just recently read John Steinbeck's

travels with Charlie in search of America. And John Steinbeck is so good about describing one tiny interaction with one person in a part of America that I had never been to. And he wasn't talking about every person from that state in general, but he somehow got to the heart of that without hitting people with too broad of a brush, without saying everyone is like this, but he gave you a quick way into the heart of that state or that region.

And so exactly that, what I'm looking for is a book about maybe one tiny point of several people with a land conservation ship in Quaker, Massachusetts, and yet it has universal truths. And it is not that everyone is fighting over a tiny piece of land with ramifications for the past and the future, but it is that that is a common human struggle.

Yeah. And you know what I keep thinking of during our whole conversation is the William Faulkner quote about Southern literature. The past is never dead. It's not even past. I think that's a headline for your love of New England novels. Is the title of this episode called Two Southern Girls Talking About New England Novels? Definitely, maybe. Okay, what have we learned? What do you think? Please note.

What's the status of your working New England theory? I love it. Okay, that timeless and timely, I think certainly put a bead on this conversation. But when you said that, something in me sort of sat up and thought, oh, yes, that's what I'm always after in my reading life. And so if the restaurant of books in Ginger's reading life is this big, this particular...

This particular New England menu, you know, you've got appetizers and entrees or whatever you've got. This New England menu just fits into the theme that I always want to serve up in my reading life is timeless and timely. And that really made me sit up and go, yeah, that is what I'm looking for, particularly with these types of books, but in my reading life in general.

And I love that. That's going to be kind of a guiding principle for me for this next season of my reading life, I think. So thank you so much. That feels so much more accurate than anything I've been able to come up with up until that point. Thank you so much for allowing us to pull at the threads of your reading life. That was lots of fun. And listeners, I hope whatever your readerly conundrum is, that this gave you some good food for thought. That's right. Well, it was lots of fun. But also, I have to say...

clear thanks to you for helping me diagnose this specifically. But the fact that I noticed something in my reading life and wanted to put a finger on it shows me that I've become a better reader because of this community, because of the What Should I Read Next episodes and the community over there, because of the book club, certainly, and all our robust conversations in the forums, but with authors. I am a better reader than I was

Not that I can read words better, but I am a more exacting reader, a more enthusiastic reader, and I have a lot more choices at my disposal because of this Modern Mrs. Darcy community. So that is thanks to you, Anne, but also thanks to this wonderful community that I get so much from. My reading life is better because of all of you. Oh, I am beholden to you and our team and our community as well, because I think it's being able to ask the questions, not like sending them out into the void, but being

being able to talk and share in community. And there's nothing like hearing other readers' experiences to give you clarity about your own. Wow, this just became like the mutual appreciation society. I know, that's right. But I mean, it already was. Okay, so this is what it's like around here. Thank you, listeners, for listening in. And the sound of our voice, we're really happy to have you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much, so much. So I have a block in my afternoon and today because I knew we were having this conversation and I do need to go to the hardware store, which happens to be nearby my independent

bookstore. But I have a whole block of my afternoon now to go to. Shout out to Old Town Books in Alexandria. You're going to be getting some of my book dollars later today. Well, I can't wait to hear what you pick up. Ginger, thank you for joining me regularly on the podcast. It has been a pleasure. There may be an implied promise that I'm seeking there. Hopefully it won't be so long again. But in the meantime, yes, I'm on record as being an enthusiast and a completist. So I'm

What should I read next episodes? I'm batting a thousand. And thank you for having me on the other side of this that I so enjoy listening to most weeks. Readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Ginger today. Ginger is our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community manager. And as we referenced book club and our book clubbers and what we're reading and deciding to read, all the scoop is at members.modernmrsdarcy.com.

Ginger is also on Instagram. She runs our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club account at MMDBOOKCLUB. And Ginger, your own account handle is GTHorton. That's right. And we will have those links as well as the full list of titles we talked about today, including Ginger's canon selections and the adjacent but not quite selections available at WhatShouldIREADNEXTpodcast.com. We would love to send you our scoop.

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Thank you to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wilkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Productions. Thank you for the whole What Should I Read Next team helping brainstorm this particular episode. Readers, that is it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rocha said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading, everyone.