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And I feel like music has always been this important element in my life because in music you can experience a lot of different emotions, you know, like it can lift you up when you are down. It can, when you are not down, you can also like experience different kinds of emotions in music and you know there's also a lot of imaginations and space in it. Welcome to Cultural Collision. I'm EJ.
and i'm victoria in today's episode we have the pleasure of diving into the multifaceted world of bufai from beijing to boston bufan's journey is a captivating blend of artistic passion and legal prowess
Join us as we explore Bufang's experiences as a corporate lawyer and professional jazz musician, shedding light on the challenges of balancing personal passions with parental expectations and unveiling the vibrant jazz scene in Beijing. Welcome, Bufang. Thanks for having me. Welcome, Bufang. Yeah. I know you are a corporate lawyer, a professional jazz musician. I have the honor to listen to you play jazz.
before. And you're also an amateur cyclist. So what will younger yourself think of the professions and passions that you have cultivated over the years? I think it's a really interesting question. Like, I want to actually say something first, because we plan to do this podcast maybe
like a month or two months ago and i was actually i got a little bit intimidated by like the you know the question list because i felt like a lot of questions like i don't even have to answer myself
and it's really uh some questions are quite critical I have to be really critical with my self with my physicians and I had this fear of whether this you know like am I gonna like like present like a good whatever podcast and it's it's all about the expectations but like later I felt like
I don't really care about that anymore. And the fact is I haven't been talking to you and EJ, who are my really good friends for a long time. And I think it's just a good opportunity and fun to just catch up. And speaking about all those things you mentioned earlier, I think EJ mentioned a really interesting word, parental expectation.
I don't necessarily see my parents planning out those things for me, except I know they want me to stay on track, like in terms of
professional career. I always like to play music, I like to listen to music. I started to play Arhu since when I was like 10 years old. And it's relatively late for Chinese kids to start practicing the instrument because
my parents were kind of like worried whether I'm gonna like stick through it and you know like the book education whatever like teacher teach you at school is more important than like art stuff but yeah I guess I just always liked the music and like cycling I used to cycle
Since when I was little, like kindergarten, like I would cycle around like in the compound with other like friends. When I look back, when I think about why I started to do cycling, like one day I realized, well, I'm actually just repeating my, it's not starting a new like hobby. It's just picking up something. It's always there since childhood. While speaking about like parental experiences,
expectations I think law is definitely not my first option when I like entered the uh like the college examinations in China but I like but I guess it's uh something well uh I picked French
as my number one interest. I think later, I discussed with my parents and we both agreed that law is something that's more practical and language can be something on the side, just like art, just like sport, other stuff.
Yeah, that's it. So you mentioned that studying law was not your first choice when you began college planning. Did you have another career in mind that you wanted to do? Like, even if, let's say you were to pick French, did you have a career in mind that you would want to take if you had ended up studying French? Honestly, I don't. That's also, like, my problem. I don't know about, like, other kids. I think I saw some...
like interviews like on TikTok and we're online like some like some people really they were really certain what they want to do before like even entering high school or like they have a dream profession but for me I didn't really have a dream profession I tried different stuffs after getting to law school as well like music I spent like a year
teaching English before going to the US for a master's degree. And I also tried, I think, chem counseling with Sam. I tried different stuff. And I think at the end, I think at the end, I still felt like law is the most challenging. Not saying that teaching English is not challenging because especially when we're facing with teenagers. But I think I like to work with
smart people and I like to work on challenging stuff and law definitely gives me that. So you studied at Zhengguo Zhengfa University? Yeah, I did my Bachelor of Law in China University of Political Science and Law. So Zhengfa University and then went to Boston University for a year for the LLM program. Yeah, I think EJ definitely
had a special role for my like journey in the US and you know also other friends of uh American friends of EJ that's uh another story yeah so like you study law in China and also in the US so how did that experience of studying abroad like while studying compared in the US and China experience your overall like how you got into the law industry and your
just how he shaped you? I think most people like back in the day when I was in college, they would decide they would pursue a master's degree right after graduation due to like the competitiveness of the legal market. But whether it's in China or in the US, I think it's
going to study abroad is definitely something always in the back of my mind, but I think that's more determined after I met EJ and other like good friends back in Bay Y. They definitely share the good side of American culture and I think back then like we
In general, I think we are all more interested in culture exchange. I feel like post-pandemic, things are a little bit different. But I think back then, early 2010, I think people are all from both sides. I would like to understand what other cultures are like, what other people think, how they grew up.
And I felt like pursuing a legal degree in the US is definitely beneficial for my career, but it's also a good opportunity for me to really observe the US culture and to understand my friends better in a way, you know, because I was surrounded by these
like American friends, including EJ. And, you know, like also like when I grew up, it's definitely a lot of American pop culture is
are coming to China and I grew up with, you know, like watching friends, like some TV show that American might not even be considered worth watching is quite old, but we all like really enjoyed friends, like, et cetera. But, and it's definitely, it's definitely, uh, yeah, something I want to do to really, uh, see the U S and experience the culture emerged myself in the,
like US culture. Was there anything particularly, because I know Buffon is alluding to the fact that we met while I was a study abroad student at Bay Y and he was living there while he was still a college student. And so, you know, at that time, Buffon's English was not what it is today.
you know, he was still learning. We were language partners. And then over the course of talking and getting closer, becoming good friends, you know, English changed. And then we sort of forgot about the fact that we were even really doing the cultural exchange, but it happened so organically. I'm wondering like,
When you got to the U.S., because I think for you being in the U.S., that was also a big sense of, like, independence for you, living on your own. I mean, I know you had a roommate, but, like, you were essentially living abroad on the first time on your own, doing a lot of things on your own. Were there any, like,
big challenges for you moving to the US or anything about US culture when you met it for the first time? You were like, "Whoa, this is not what I was expecting. This is not what I saw in an episode of 'Friends.' You know, what do I do with this?" - Yeah, like for the record, my English was not too bad as well because I learned from Eminem and Tupac. And so, and in terms of difference between 'Friends,' I think it's definitely more diverse than 'Friends.'
And I think because I only stayed there, I knew I was only going to stay there for one year. And I know the, you know, like U.S. is like one of the major topics about like U.S. something you can avoid is the racial thing and the diversity. So and you definitely give me a
friendly, I don't know, warning or tip. Oh, like the Americans might not be as friendly as me or Jimmy or Sam or all the like, Liu Xuesheng you met in Beijing because they are interested in Chinese culture in the first place. Otherwise, you wouldn't be like seeing us. And
With that in mind, I think I just decided to take the most of it from this one year experience and I didn't really focus on the racial thing or, you know, like the negative aspects of it. I just try to, I think all my like
classmates are friendly, all the people I met are mostly friendly even though like Boston or Massachusetts is known for something but I didn't really experience that within that short time. And others I think like I feel like you, Jamie or other like friends like really prepped me up before I even went to got to the US. I feel like wow it's a
I can interact with locals just like back in Beijing. I was already prepared, well prepared by you there, basically. But there is a really interesting incident because that's something I really thought about because I have cousins who grew up in the U.S.,
and they are Americans or like Canadian. And I went to the US just without having this minority mindset because I was always the majority in China. We are not considered as minorities. So I feel like I was just more confident or like not really having this internal barriers comparing to some
uh like asian american like i wouldn't be really focusing on like some of the nuance i guess like when i was just there for a year but really one time in boston i was in this bar and i was my friends and a few asian american like uh approached me and we just started talking and one guy literally asked me oh like what do you think uh
the status of Asian Americans would change if China becomes more powerful one day and we can be just as equal as the whites or the majority in the US. It's really something that is hard for me to respond to because I never really experienced growing up as a minority.
And so kind of feel kind of feel sad, like that's something like on his mind. But it's definitely if I'm there like long term, I will definitely take a closer look on these issues. But I think back then I just decided to have a good time and just not really take
I don't know, agencies, opinions on like things are not like strongly related to me. I remember I had a conversation with my friend in the US. She is a Chinese American. I think all of them have this identity crisis. Like by the age of maybe 20s, they realized some of them was born in China, some of them were in the US, right? And they were like,
in the u.s society most people think they are they're just asian they're like chinese they're asian they don't think they're the u.s you're a citizen even though they are right like that that's kind of like things like bufan mentioned we are never going to experience even though like
we live in, like, travel to a different country or, like, experience is never something we can imagine. Can you tell us a bit more, like, your role as a corporate lawyer? Because, like, you know, lawyers are often, like, stereotyped. Like, what do you think some...
What would you think, what are the some misconceptions about the field of law that you feel are important for people to understand? That's a good question. I feel like whether you're a corporate lawyer or you're a family law, you practice family law or criminal law, essentially you're just using the law as a tool to like solve problems for your client. And
Law is relatively more complex. So there's the challenge. And as a corporate lawyer or as a lawyer in general, you must you oftentimes facing difficult, complex, new issues. And like sometimes you're like a lot of times you try to search for president, but a lot of times it's new because each case is different from others.
the other so you need to have the ability to understand law and to apply law into the individual like scenarios that's i think takes i don't know like takes really takes experience and i don't know like wisdom yeah because a lot of times other than legal analysis you also need to have a uh
picture of how to help your clients solve the issue better and that's sometimes not necessarily strictly legal analysis you have to be a little bit creative on getting like a whole solution to your client I think that's also very challenging and I'm still learning
till now after eight years of practicing law. So it's not just a follow by the rules, right? Followed by the book, what the book tells you, right? The book is very important, but it's also very important to how to interpret the law itself and how to apply the law to different scenarios. Switching gears a little bit. So you spent a year in Boston and had a lot of new experiences.
Was Boston where you first fell in love with jazz music? Actually not because when I, I think I picked schools from Southern California and New York and Boston then I decided to go to Boston because I really like classical music and art in general and Boston is very famous for
It's Boston Symphony Orchestra. It's like the top five, I think, in the world. And they also have New England Conservatories and Berklee. It's a really prestigious music school. There are a lot of performances happening every day. So that's one of the...
key factors, I decided to go to BU. And also like Jimmy recommended that Boston University has really amazing gym.
Like I did visit a few times and it's amazing, but it's definitely not the key aspects. So also my aunt is, my aunt lives in Boston. I felt like it's cool to stay closer to her as well because we never really had the chance to bond when I grew up because they immigrated to the US, I think around the, yeah, I think around 1989, 1990. Yeah.
So it would be cool to stay close to my family as well. Yeah. What was it that got you into jazz music? Okay. So that's a really interesting question because I picked up, I started to play saxophone in 2018.
of course you're well aware of that because you're my roommate. Sorry for that. And at first I really didn't like even after I got my saxophone I was not really into jazz. I didn't even know jazz that well but I think it's a few months after I made my purchase I was traveling in Hong Kong for work and
After long hours, I think on a Friday, I decided to visit a jazz bar near my office to have some drinks, apparently. I remember this trumpeter called Mike something, but he called himself Mike Gillespie, like after Dizzy Gillespie, a famous trumpeter. I was just like, I was really touched by...
the music and it's just the music he plays really make me starting to listen to more jazz because I think it's the improvisational aspects of it but it's still kind of like remote for me because the way I learn instrument is always reading the music sheets and practice or
fingerings first and you know practice from slow to fast but there's no improvisation aspects of it so it's actually kind of that's like a culture shock for me or that's like the main difference between jazz music and other music I know
And what really helped me to decide to keep learning jazz is actually this person I met in Hong Kong. His name is Sylvester Spann and he's still like, he's the guy on my WeChat profile. He's one of my jazz heroes. I think it's still like one late night I got up from the office
walking back to my hotel and he was sitting next to the street and playing the saxophone. He was playing jazz.
And I walked over and I saw there were like two wine bottles next to him. I put like a hundred dollar Hong Kong dollar into the bucket. I was like, can I drink with you and play a little bit saxophone with you? He said yes. And he and I played, he showed me how to play the tunes. And I asked him, you know, like if I play Arhu, it's a Chinese instrument.
Like no matter like I can actually improvise on it. I can play random stuff on ARK1 and it's still gonna sound like Chinese music. And I feel like for jazz, it's similar to like African-American. You know, it's your music. It's created by you. It's predominantly played by African-American musicians.
how can I like stand like jazz? It's, I felt, I said, it's your music. And his reaction, his response was really touched me because he said, the music is just there. Everybody can play it. It's nobody's music. I just really liked the idea of, you know, jazz is like a platform. Everybody can have their own voice. It's, there's no like a,
there's no, there isn't a, everybody can play jazz and there's, there's not like a defined sound of jazz. You can, everybody can make your own sound. And that's actually the goal for all the jazz players to find your own sound, to be unique, uh, while playing jazz. And that's definitely something that's very fascinating to me and,
I actually tried to reach out to Sylvester Spann on Facebook and I think back then he like back in 2018 he's already like 80 years old or something and I like he didn't respond me on Facebook because I think he doesn't really use like electronic devices that often and I like just reach out to like a few like friends on his Facebook and I think
they kind of got suspicious, like why this Asian guy was asking for Sylvester's band while his profile picture was him playing the saxophone next to him. Nobody really responded, but I really wish, I think he lives somewhere in Georgia, Atlanta. I wish I could go visit to the South someday.
to maybe see him if he's still around or talk to his friends, family. I think he's still around because I still like from time to time I search on Facebook I can see like some like recent video or like pictures from him.
yeah that's like how i started jazz yeah so you also mentioned you play r who as well so what other music talents do you have if i got really drunk then i go to ktv and sing some random chinese song that's pretty much it yeah i don't know whether that's talent wait can i say something as a side note
Do you know the song, Jin Sheng Yuan, right? That song is really popular on American TikTok right now. Oh, really? Why? It's a POV thing. It'll say POV. It's so stupid. It'll say something like,
Someone will be driving a car. It'll be like a man driving a car. And you know, the joke is that like men will never ask for directions. Like even if they don't know where they're going, they'll never ask for directions. So the guy driving a car and it says, ask for directions or sing in Chinese.
And instead of singing in Chinese, he sings in Jin Zhong Yuan. It's so fun. I don't know how this became a meme, but it's like all over TikTok now. All these different scenarios. It's like, do your homework or sing in Chinese. And you'll just see little kids trying to sing along to the song. Anyway, speaking of karaoke, that was a song I used to...
make an appearance at karaoke often. We should definitely record you when you were singing that song. You mentioned something really interesting when you were talking about Sylvester and that idea of jazz is a platform for everyone and that everyone's ultimate goal is to
figure out their way to find their own sound and be unique. And so you've been playing now for around six years. Do you feel like you've been able to find your own sound in jazz or your own sort of rhythm and groove in it? Or do you still feel like... Or is that something that you constantly are finding and constantly evolves over time? I think I'm still trying to find my sound. And I think as a... I think I'm still like an amateur player. And I think...
I think like for amateurs or professionals we are all always we all have our own like musical heroes we listen to their albums uh recordings again and again we and we
like our taste kind of like shifts from time to time. So like for a certain period, I really like the sound of John Coltrane and then I imitate his tone. And for some times, maybe I really like Joshua Redman and then I try to copy his sound.
And that's how all these jazz giants create their own sound as well. They learn from others, they imitate others, and then they have all these different sounds and concepts within them. And then they finally have this unique, consistent thing called style, their own sound.
I think it's something I pursue, but it's also a very difficult thing to have your own sound, I guess. For you to have your own sound, it's really meaning that you have something unique, you have something, you sound different from all other people.
in a good way okay so um for example like john coltrane sound like he was very active during like uh 1950 to like late 60s and his sound was still considered advanced and unique till this day because of the tone quality of his sound because of his concept his spirit spirituality and
that's something that requires a lot for a player to have. And also like yeah jazz I definitely like another thing like jazz I learned from jazz is actually this concept of spirituality because I think before this concept is not very popular in China like spiritual
wise but definitely like if you listen to John Coltrane's music or Farrar Sanders some other like jazz giants you can actually hear their like inner voices and
It's not like classical music. It's something different, another layer on top of this. I want to ask you, so how your pursuit of jazz impact your life, both professionally and also personally? We're curious to hear how about the ripple effects of your journey through the world of the jazz. This, I think similar to cycling I mentioned earlier,
Back in the day, back in 2018, when I decided to purchase to start learning saxophone, I was actually wanting to start a new hobby. But later I realized it's not a new hobby. I just like to play music. It's just I'm still kind of repeating the things I do like since childhood, you know, like
a school it's on the it's the main dish and you know like music and maybe some sport uh art on the side and i think now i'm still under the same pattern i i'm still choosing law as my main dish or my my career and i'm trying to like balance and do music and other like uh hobbies on the side and i think
it's music's definitely something makes my life more balanced because if it's only law, only like think that would be a little bit suffocating for me. Like I know there are other like lawyers, they really just like law. And I think for me, I think in the long run, I think I like to have music
In my life, it's not necessarily a way to make money or my profession, but it's just something I enjoy doing. And I'm hoping that I can get
like better throughout the years. Like my, my end goal is to, you know, maybe when I retire one day, like my fifties, then I will be already playing saxophone for like more than 20 years. Then, you know, even though I progress slowly, but I think at that time I will be like good enough to, you know, go to jam sessions, you know, play at,
at different jam sessions in the world you know like in New York maybe in Paris yes that's something I dreamed of I heard I remember I heard you play once and I also saw like some WeChat like moments on the videos you play I think it's very good so I wonder like EJ because like at the beginning when you were trying to study saxophone you were like roommates
So I'm curious, like EJ, so you've seen Buffon's progress, right? So how do you feel like from beginning when he was like just started and now he's like a musician? I think it's amazing. It's been so beautiful to watch because people used to ask me like, how do you put up with it? Like I could never live with someone who's learning to play an instrument for the first time. And to be honest, Buffon wasn't like...
Buffon picked up, I think, the saxophone relatively quickly, right? Like, in terms of just, like, general musicality, I think he has a lot of that. But I think for me, what I remember is that jazz and the saxophone came into Buffon's life, I feel like, at a time where he really needed it. I think it was at a time where, like, law was at some point being too suffocating. I think it was, like, overconsuming his life. And I think that...
Jazz came at a time, or the saxophone, I should say, came at a time where he really needed to reconnect with a passion and something that was purely for fun and for joy. And so, yes, it was really loud and it was really noisy. And it was at all different times of the day because he was a lawyer. And sometimes he had to work until 11, 12, 1 in the morning. And so the only time he could practice was really late at night.
And so it didn't bother me as much because as a friend, I saw him finally be happy. It was a while that I hadn't seen him be as happy as he was when he was playing with music. And so like, yeah, I had to suffer a little bit, but I'd rather suffer a little bit knowing that he was doing something that was making him happy at the time. And so now to see that like,
Not only does it make him happy, like he can travel and like he gets to play with other really cool musicians and it's become more than just something he does for fun. It's become this whole community. To me, it's amazing. I mean, it's exactly what you would hope someone would do with a hobby or with a passion, that it could bloom and blossom into something as fulfilling as it has for him. So as a friend, I'm really proud and I'm really happy. It always makes me happy when I see you post something.
your saxophone stuff it's amazing yeah not my boss not my clients not my colleagues but thanks for being supportive no just kidding yeah yeah it's um yeah it's really it's really really beautiful to see it's really cool yeah I think um also another layer to music in general I think I don't know like how EJ feel about it because I feel like we share some similarities when we like
growing up. And I feel like music has always been this important element in my life because in music you can experience a lot of different emotions, you know, like it can lift you up when you are down. It can, when you are not down, you can also like experience different kinds of emotions in music and you know there's also a lot of imaginations and space in it. So
I think for me, like for some other people, maybe, you know, like novels, maybe like, I don't know, friends, TV shows. But for me, it's always been music. I can listen to music and have my own space where I don't even have to listen to music. Sometimes I can just play in my mind and I can drive the music. And a lot of times I feel like since I grew up, always been listening to music, I think
This is also how I save my memories in certain ways. Like I can listen to a certain, maybe a classical piece, and the music can literally take me back to the time when I first listened to that music.
maybe when I was like six or seven or eight and what that day look like what was the weather how did I feel back in the time I think that's also like why I still like keep
listening to music because I know I'm also like maybe I'm not writing a diary but you know maybe today I listen to like John Coltrane's Giant Steps and I can remember later oh what did I do today while I was listening to that music you know so I think music is also it's very important for me because it's an essential part of my inner space and it's how I store my like
emotions, memories and feelings, etc. You've touched on a lot of different things and we've hinted at the fact that jazz is more than just the music itself. It has a rich culture and history. I'm wondering if you can share an aspect of jazz culture or history that really stands out to you or resonates with you. I think if you talk about jazz,
I think if you talk about jazz history, it's definitely strongly linked to African American culture and history. I think the most fascinating aspects of jazz still improvisation, but you have to keep in mind how these complex musics were developed because at first it was, it's rooted from blues.
And it's back in the time of slavery and segregation. And later on, jazz was developed in New Orleans, you know, at salons and like other like
low-end clubs like certain entertaining audience but later jazz became this very complex not purely just for entertaining purpose type of art it's it's the wisdom of uh African Americans I think yeah like they refuse to make this
genre of music just for entertaining. I don't know, like, uh, John's coming to like a saloon or people who wants to dance with it, but they want to take this to another level. That's how Charlie Parker, DZ Gillespie created this genre called bebop. It's, it's the fast high tempo jazz music you can often hear in Starbucks.
That's like, at first, if you're not a jazz listener, you might think, wow, it's just some random notes. Are they really playing something serious or like improvisation? Are they just like playing BS? But if you play slowly and break it down, you can actually hear or see if you write it down. The musicians were actually...
high, lining up the core progressions and creating tensions in a very fast paces. You know, jazz is, it's like the main difference between jazz and classical music for me is jazz is more
abstract. It's like Picasso. It's not like classical paintings. It's very, maybe very nuanced in a way, but jazz is more like a red, blue, white, like different color just jumping quickly. And it's less repetitive than classical music and develops really fast. I think that's something that
very fascinating about jazz and how much wisdom like the artists back in the days have to even create this kind of music and I think yes that's something that's really fascinating to me and jazz culture I think like from a lot of musicians music you can
hear the struggle of African-American, like for example, like again, John Coltrane, it's like the hero for all the jazz musicians. He actually composed this music called Alabama after the incidents of, you know, like the church bombing in Alabama back in the day. And different from Malcolm X or other like more aggressive
black movement leaders, he chose, it's almost like a eulogy, using his own ways spiritually to try to heal the wound of the people who suffered this tragedy. Later, John Coltrane, he composed this
legendary piece called A Love Supreme. It's also, he created this piece also in the background of the heist of the racial tension in the US, I think back in the 60s. And still he's using his own unique way. He's trying to spread love instead of hate. He's trying to offer peace instead of
retribution, like revenge, right? He's trying to solve, like absorb all this painfulness, absorb all this tragedy inside of him, like him and release, like coming out from his music, it's only love and peace and I don't know, like kindness. It's really something that's also very fascinating to me, I think. Yeah, so...
I think that's a little bit off topic, but I think in general like the fascinating aspects of jazz culture is also it's definitely how African-American created this kind of music.
Back in the day and how you know like the music also reflects certain historical like events and backgrounds and you know like think you can listen to John Coltrane's music and compare it to Martin Luther King's I have a dream you know some sort of that like you can make that kind of comparison and you can then you realize well like.
Jazz music is not just as simple as a pop sound. It has a lot of weight in it. Okay, as we wrap up today's episode, we extend our heartfelt thanks to Bufan for sharing his inspiring journey with us. From navigating the complexities of the law to immersing themselves in the rich tapestry of jazz music, Bufan's story serves as a testament to the power of pursuing one's passion fearlessly.
Join us next time for another enriching conversation on Culture Coalition, where we continue to explore the beautiful collisions of cultures that make our world so vibrant. Until then, stay curious and keep embracing the diverse tapestry of life. Bye. Bye. Bye.
