cover of episode AntiTalk vol.07丨从《俄狄浦斯王》开喷:当代故事创作

AntiTalk vol.07丨从《俄狄浦斯王》开喷:当代故事创作

2024/7/17
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Anti: 讨论了《俄狄浦斯王》的结构和元素在后世作品中的演绎,认为其被过度演绎导致庸俗化,并探讨了后世优秀作品中俄狄浦斯式结构的体现,例如《美国往事》。 分析了《美国往事》中真相揭露和自我认知的主题,认为其在处理真相揭露方面更具力量,并与俄狄浦斯故事进行比较,指出其差异和共通之处。 同时,也探讨了当代文艺创作中常用的为角色设计真相和前史的方法,以及这种方法的优缺点。 三千: 从《俄狄浦斯王》的结构出发,分析了阿尔萨斯(魔兽争霸)的故事,认为其是俄狄浦斯结构的反面,展现了当代作品中常见的“发现自己内心黑暗”的主题。 并探讨了当代商业创作中“点子文学”或“醋先行”的创作方式,以及这种方式的利弊。 同时,也讨论了当代人对英雄的定义和期待的改变,以及俄狄浦斯故事在当代语境下难以成立的原因。 奥兹: 分析了《银翼杀手2049》的反转俄狄浦斯结构,认为其展现了当代人发现自己是“菜鸟”的自我认知。 并探讨了英雄气质在面对命运时如何接受命运,以及在不同作品中英雄形象和英雄气概的演变。 同时,也深入探讨了故事的演变与人类社会变化的关系,认为故事的关注点变得更加细小和碎片化,但其根本模式未变。 Z: 从俄狄浦斯故事中真挚的情感出发,探讨了“认识自己”的多种途径,以及人们将故事中的角色视为真实存在的个体的倾向。 并分析了《俄狄浦斯王》的创作背景,特别是与伯罗奔尼撒战争和雅典瘟疫的关系,以及索福克勒斯参与雅典政治的经历。 同时,也比较了索福克勒斯与埃斯库罗斯的作品,探讨其对雅典政治的反映,并分析了伯里克利执政时期雅典政治的复杂性及其对后世的影响。 最后,探讨了《俄狄浦斯王》中对雅典政治的隐喻,以及索福克勒斯可能想表达的观点,包括俄狄浦斯家族神话的主题:和谐被打破,以及其与雅典政治的潜在联系。 并分析了俄狄浦斯故事结构在后世传播中的变形,以及人们对故事真伪的质疑,以及作品中“神谕”的意义,以及其作为“盘外招”的可能性。

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Key Insights

Why does the podcast discuss the structure of 'Oedipus Rex' in relation to modern storytelling?

The podcast explores how the structure and elements of 'Oedipus Rex' have been repeatedly reinterpreted and often trivialized in modern storytelling. The 'B story' of self-discovery, central to 'Oedipus Rex,' has become less compelling for contemporary audiences, who now prefer conclusive and satisfying endings in narratives.

How does 'Once Upon a Time in America' reflect the themes of 'Oedipus Rex'?

In 'Once Upon a Time in America,' the character Noodles believes he caused the death of his friends, including Max, after he reports them to the police. Decades later, he discovers that Max orchestrated the entire event, leading to a revelation that shatters Noodles' self-perception and past beliefs, mirroring the self-discovery and tragic realization in 'Oedipus Rex.'

What is the significance of the 'Stanley Parable' in the context of modern storytelling?

The 'Stanley Parable' is discussed as a contemporary example of reversing the 'Oedipus' structure. Unlike Oedipus, who realizes his own flaws, the character in 'Stanley Parable' discovers his inner darkness, a common trope in modern narratives where characters confront their darker selves rather than their shortcomings.

How does the podcast compare the heroism in ancient Greek stories to modern interpretations?

The podcast highlights that ancient Greek heroes, like Oedipus, were defined by their human traits and actions rather than moral perfection. In contrast, modern heroes are often portrayed as flawless individuals. The complexity of ancient heroes, who embodied both good and bad traits, has been simplified in contemporary storytelling to characters with clear-cut moral dichotomies.

What role does the plague play in 'Oedipus Rex' and its historical context?

The plague in 'Oedipus Rex' serves as a critical plot device, symbolizing the chaos and divine punishment in Thebes. Historically, Sophocles introduced the plague element, which was not present in earlier versions of the Oedipus story. This addition reflects the societal impact of the plague during the Peloponnesian War, adding a layer of contemporary relevance to the play.

Chapters
This chapter explores the parallels between the film Once Upon a Time in America and the Oedipus myth. The discussion centers on how the revelation of truth impacts the protagonist's self-perception and the narrative structure.
  • Comparison of Once Upon a Time in America and Oedipus Rex
  • Analysis of the narrative structure and revelation of truth
  • Discussion of the protagonist's self-perception and the impact of the truth

Shownotes Transcript

喜闻乐见的胡逼环节:

有关俄狄浦斯的一切想聊的,从流行文化品鉴到当代创作批判。Anti、三千、奥兹和Z彻底放飞自我的聊天。

《美国往事》借用了俄狄浦斯的结构吗?

魔兽争霸中阿尔萨斯也经历了“认识自己”的过程吗?

银翼杀手反转了这种“英雄神话”吗?

希腊人眼中的英雄和当代人眼中的英雄有何不同?

“点子文学”和“为这盘醋包饺子”:现代人对“故事”的审美变了吗?

英雄是“发现自己是个傻逼”,普通人是“发现自己是个菜逼”。

索福克勒斯除了戏剧作家的身份之外,还同时是雅典的“十将军”,他是在什么样的处境下写出了这些戏剧?讲述俄狄浦斯的故事的他,有什么在故事之外想说的东西吗?