Cultural appropriation of food: What is it?
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Hi, it's Elliot. The Enchanted Village is back. See the Laser Light Show, play the reindeer games, skate on the enchanted ice, and ride the tube. Take photos with Santa and my favorite, the Jordan's Blueberry Muffins. The Village is free and tickets to all the attractions are available online with some of the proceeds donated to charity. The Enchanted Village only happens once a year at Jordan's Furniture in Avon. Come experience a magical time of year with your family.

In this episode, we're talking about one of my favorite things to eat, Vietnamese phở, or as it's commonly pronounced abroad, pho. In case you don't know, it's an incredibly warming and aromatic soup with noodles and a broth that's typically simmered for at least 12 hours and sometimes for days. Now, why are we talking about all this? Well, recently, a story about pho blew up on TikTok here in the UK.

It was after a Vietnamese TikToker pointed out that a British-owned restaurant chain called Pho had trademarked the name of the dish, and that limited the rights of other restaurant owners to use the word "pho" in their names because they could have faced legal action. Critics said it was a vivid example of cultural appropriation of food. So in this episode, we're going to hear from Yen Bui, who started the campaign, to find out why this issue matters to so many.

I'm William Lee Adams, and this is What in the World from the BBC World Service. You might be less familiar with the term cultural appropriation. If so, here's Kim Pham. She's made online content to help people understand and avoid cultural appropriation.

cultural appropriation. I mean, cultural appropriation in food, I think, is a deeply complex and nuanced subject. But the way that I think about it is that you kind of know it when you see it, right? I think it's when specific dishes or cuisines, largely from communities of color, are flattened, diluted, ripped off, or exploited for profit, usually by folks not from those respective communities.

So some things that I look out for when I think about is this culturally appropriative? Does it involve chefs of those backgrounds or nationalities? Does it acknowledge, involve, and compensate relevant communities for their expertise in these flavors? Does it not try to claim singular expertise in a dish or cuisine? Does it properly credit the cuisines, regions, dishes, people from which inspiration is taken? And does it name products and dishes with respect and care?

Let's get back to faux. As I mentioned, a restaurant here in the UK has given up the trademark to the word faux. Faux Restaurant trademarked the word in 2007. That meant that other businesses felt it risky to use the word, and some claimed this had a negative impact on them. One example is a restaurant called MoFo, which in 2013 received a legal letter over its name from Faux Restaurant.

Following a public outcry, however, Pho Restaurant apologized and said it would not pursue legal action against Mo Pho. Yen Bui is a Vietnamese content creator who now lives in London. She's also the woman behind that TikTok campaign. Hi, Yen. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Oh, really good. Thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited to have you.

Thanks for having me. So, Yen, we've heard a little bit about your campaign. Could you tell us who you were fighting for? So essentially, you know, and I tried to explain this to my parents. I'm, you know, a daughter of Vietnamese first generation immigrants to Germany. And I'm

just seeing how incredibly hard my parents both worked and also running a Vietnamese restaurant in Germany selling the pho noodle dish I just couldn't imagine how they would have felt if they would receive a letter from a company that owns the pho trademark and so essentially I did it

not only for my parents, but for those Vietnamese-owned businesses that were a victim of the third trademark years ago, and also just in general, people that are of any kind victim of cultural appropriation.

And the campaign got a lot of attention very quickly. What was it like for you to see this unfolding? For me, it was incredibly overwhelming because I didn't expect for it to grow like that. So when I saw that it was growing so rapidly and I saw that...

the majority of the sentiment, don't quote me on it, but like 99.9% of the sentiment in the comments was positive and supportive. And when it started to unfold and other people joined this campaign and started using their voices to challenge for Holdings Limited, it was, you know, it felt good and it felt empowering and it felt like we could really make a change. On the flip side, did anyone push back at you that other 1% said,

what would be the argument against doing the campaign? So I think the most of the negative sentiment that I got was obviously like, why are you mentioning that it's white owned, it shouldn't matter. And to be fair, it doesn't matter that they are white people who started Vietnamese restaurant, because I do think that a lot of people had their first touchpoint with Vietnamese food through this restaurant chain, because they're the biggest chain. But the

it's just in bad taste that they are not Vietnamese people. In addition to that, another negative sentiment was that, well, it's the business landscape. And maybe if Vietnamese-owned businesses were smart enough to trademark it before them, then you wouldn't complain about this. So basically, one of the sentiments was, well, they were just better at business, doing business.

The founders of the Pho restaurant chain have said they opened it to pay tribute to Vietnam's national dish. Do you think there is room for non-Vietnamese people to prepare, serve, and celebrate Vietnamese food?

So I do think there is a lot of space for it and it shouldn't just be limited to Vietnamese people owning Vietnamese restaurants. But if you do it, then you have to pay respect to the culture that you're profiting off. It's important to say Pho restaurant has released a public statement saying that they felt their brand had been misunderstood. The founders say they started Pho to pay tribute to the national dish of Vietnam after they fell in love with it during their travels.

They say they haven't prevented other businesses from using the word pho, and they point out that more than 50 restaurants in the UK currently also have a trademark using the word. They say they believe that pho doesn't belong to anyone but the people of Vietnam. So trademarks can be pretty powerful. Let's hear more about how they're used in food with the BBC's Charlotte Edwards. ♪

A trademark is something that helps give legal protection to a product or an idea so other people can't just copy it. Lots of things can be trademarked including names, words, phrases, symbol designs and pictures. A trademark can be used as a legal weapon if someone tries to copy you or make money by trying to associate with a famous brand or name.

Using something which has a trademark can lead to a fine, prison or both depending on what you're using it for. There are some fair use arguments such as using a product for comparative advertising or if you can argue it was fair use and necessary to refer to a trademarked item and you weren't trying to imply things like sponsorship or endorsement.

But fair use doesn't apply in all countries, so you need to be very careful. Trademarks are very common in the food industry. For example, Coca-Cola and Pepsi are trademarked names for popular fizzy drinks, and Big Mac is something we associate with McDonald's burgers.

However, Big Mac is an example of how complicated food trademarks can be because earlier this year McDonald's actually lost the EU trademark for use of the term Big Mac in relation to chicken sandwiches. And that was because of a complaint from Irish rival Supermax.

So Yen, back to you now. I was scrolling through your Instagram and I saw that you were invited to the Vietnamese embassy in London. Could you tell us about that meeting and what was said? Yeah, so I mean, I think the first question that the Secretary of Commerce asked me is,

Why did you do that? Like, what was the motivation behind this? We also spoke about the fact that if it's for today, it can be bánh mì tomorrow. And if it's not bánh mì, then it will be bún chào or it will be áo dài, which is the traditional Vietnamese dress. And so we were...

trying to speak about what regulations are currently in place to ensure that you can protect cultural heritage, not just Vietnamese, but in general. What is the process at the intellectual property office in the UK, but also outside of the UK? Yen, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Cultural appropriation is a tricky issue, especially as the world becomes more and more integrated and culture feels more fluid. But as we heard from Kim earlier, there is a way to take influences from another culture while still being respectful of it. That's all for today. Thanks for listening to another episode of What in the World from the BBC World Service. I'm William Lee Adams, and we'll see you next time. Bye!

Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by.

And in 2017, Miranda, a university tutor from London, joins a yoga school that promises profound transformation. It felt a really safe and welcoming space. After the yoga classes, I felt amazing. But soon, that calm, welcoming atmosphere leads to something far darker, a journey that leads to allegations of grooming, trafficking and exploitation across international borders.

I don't have my passport, I don't have my phone, I don't have my bank cards, I have nothing. The passport being taken, the being in a house and not feeling like they can leave.

You just get sucked in so gradually.

And it's done so skillfully that you don't realize. And it's like this, the secret that's there. I wanted to believe that, you know, that whatever they were doing, even if it seemed gross to me,

was for some spiritual reason that i couldn't understand revealing the hidden secrets of a global yoga network i feel that i have no other choice the only thing i can do is to speak about this and to put my reputation and everything else on the line i want truth and justice

And for other people to not be hurt, for things to be different in the future. To bring it into the light and almost alchemise some of that evil stuff that went on and take back the power. World of Secrets, Season 6, The Bad Guru. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

When you're part of a military family, you understand sacrifice and support. So at American Public University, we honor your dedication by extending our military tuition savings to your extended family. Parents, spouses, legal partners, siblings, and dependents all qualify for APU's preferred military rate of just $250 per credit hour for undergraduate and master's level programs. American Public University, value for the whole family. Learn more at apu.apus.edu slash military.