Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Crassie Twigg, and on the documentary we zoom in on the backstory of the Syrian militant group that led a coalition of rebels to take control of Aleppo. Once an offshoot of al-Qaeda, HDS rebranded itself in its desire to be seen as a credible governing body.
To listen to this episode of The Global Jigsaw, where we look at the world through the lens of its media, search for the documentary wherever you get your BBC podcasts. ♪
Discover your dream home at the Vineyard Collection 2 in beautiful Livermore, California. Nestled in the heart of wine country, these stunning new homes offer up to 3,490 square feet of luxury single-story living. With spacious floor plans, modern amenities, and a breathtaking location, the Vineyard Collection 2 is the perfect place to call home. Visit ponderosahomes.com for more information. Cal DRE 0125-7567.
Hi there, I'm Katrina Perry from the BBC World Service. This is The Global Story.
America watches on as people are added and taken off Donald Trump's list of cabinet picks. Matt Gaetz, the president-elect's nomination for attorney general, has withdrawn his name from the list. After days of headlines and frantic media analysis, the former Florida congressman said he would no longer stand for consideration as it was a distraction to president-elect Donald Trump's plans.
It's a backdrop to another week of political wrangling, which has seen more cabinet picks and a clearer insight into the policy agenda of the second Trump administration. So as the countdown to Inauguration Day continues, let's map out the path to the presidency.
With me today here in Washington DC, my fellow BBC Chief Presenter Sumi Somaskanda. Hi Sumi. Hey Katrina. So we are back for another week. Tick-tocking down the days and the weeks until President-elect Donald Trump is in the White House. So we've got another week of Path to the Presidency and it's great this week Sumi. We are joined by our colleague Kayla Epstein. Hi Kayla. Hello. It's
It's great to see you, Kayla. I feel like we haven't had as much opportunity to speak to you since the Trump trial, which is where you were covering, obviously, extensively there in New York with your cool New York background there, your skyline. Yes, it's been a really wild year. I mean, you think back at what's happened and it's incredible. We've just packed this all into a few months. I know. And you've got a lovely New York backdrop picture behind you there, Kayla. But Sumi, are you sitting on the floor?
I was hoping no one would notice. Listen, all of our colleagues left and they took chairs and tables with them. And I had to rush to find a spot and I couldn't find an adequate chair and table setup. So everyone, excuse me, I am sitting on the floor, but you know, I'm comfortable. I'm cross-legged here. It's good for my posture. Yeah.
Build in a bit of yoga while we chat. Well, I think the missing chairs and tables are where I am because I'm in another corner of BBC Towers here in Washington, D.C. And I won't show you because I won't put that image on the world, but it's full of junk and bric-a-brac here beside me. You have my tables and chairs. OK. Yes.
I should have known. All joking aside, I mean, it's still so dramatic, isn't it? As President-elect Donald Trump is putting together his team for his administration come January. And I suppose we'll just put a timestamp on when we're taping this. It's Thursday, the 21st of November, just coming up to 1.30 Eastern time because major news has just broken that Donald Trump's pick for Attorney General Matt Gaetz has taken himself out of the running.
Yeah, it's pretty astonishing. And Kayla, I know that you have been following this, all of the twists and turns. And here in our BBC programs, we've been speaking to a number of members of Congress on both sides of the aisle, but in particular Republicans about the House Ethics Committee investigation into Matt Gaetz and whether that investigation should be released to the Senate and what was in this investigation.
And it was fascinating to watch members of the Ethics Committee trying to speak as carefully as possible without divulging the contents of that investigation, which obviously they're not allowed to do, but indicating that they thought it was absolutely critical for the contents of that investigation to get to the Senate so the Senate could then make decisions.
make a decision based on the information that they had. But it seems like at this point, Matt Gaetz, joined by the vice president-elect J.D. Vance on the Hill, was having plenty of meetings with Republican senators. And the indication at this point is that perhaps he just he didn't have enough support and that there was bombshell information, perhaps, in the reporting. And we have to say over and over again, he denies any wrongdoing.
And we also should say that there was a criminal investigation into these alleged acts and no charges were brought forward. And this ethics committee is a political investigation committee.
on the Hill. Yeah, I think we were all a little bit shocked in the newsroom when this news came through recently that Matt Gaetz was going to step aside because this is a figure who never stands down about anything. He has taken Trump's approach of just sort of using stubbornness and will to push himself forward, whether
Whether it's trying to get Kevin McCarthy ousted as the former Speaker of the House, whether it's, you know, trying to jump his way to the front of the line to become the potential attorney general. I mean, Matt Gaetz is not somebody who we tend to see quit anything. And so to see him say publicly, I am taking my name out of contention was quite remarkable.
Yeah, and let's not forget that he also, before we got to this point last week, he actually resigned his seat in the House of Representatives. So now where does that leave Matt Gaetz? One of our colleagues had just mentioned the fact that there is now an open senator seat in the state of Florida because Senator Marco Rubio, of course, is the pick to be the Secretary of State. So Matt Gaetz could possibly be someone who Governor Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis thinks is a good fit for that seat. But not only is there a lot of uncertainty for Matt Gaetz,
Because what they said is Matt Gaetz is the guy to go in and clean up the Department of Justice. That's the way they phrased it. I mean, nothing about this situation is precedented. Like, you know, Trump's pick of Matt Gaetz was pretty extraordinary. I mean, legal experts I've been talking to all week, people who know the Department of Justice well used to work for it, said, you know, not only is this someone who has an ethics investigation hanging over his head, but also this is someone who just doesn't have the kind of experience that's
the deep legal background or the big government management experience you would see from the U.S. Attorney General. And so, you know, Gates resigned, as you mentioned, after Trump wanted to nominate him, partially because he thought that would shut down the House ethics investigation. You know, there are rules that people weren't quite sure about whether or not the investigation
Now, we recorded this episode of Path to the Presidency on Thursday, the 21st of November at 1.30 or thereabouts Eastern Time in the afternoon. And we're going to be talking about
And a little bit later on that day, Donald Trump announced that he was going to nominate Pam Bondi as his attorney general. Pam Bondi, of course, the former Florida attorney general and a long-term friend and ally of Donald Trump. So her name goes forward now for Senate confirmation.
It's really interesting to me the first reaction we've had from Donald Trump to this. He posted on Truth Social and he said, you know, he greatly appreciated the efforts of Matt Gaetz. He was doing very well, but at the same time, he didn't want to be a distraction for the administration, for which he has much respect.
Matt has a wonderful future and I look forward to watching all of the great things he will do. Very sort of conciliatory tone from the president-elect there, you know, not blaming anyone else for pushing Matt Gaetz out. So I think we'll see more come out about the reasons behind this and what's going on behind the scenes. But it does bring someone who you know very well, Kayla, Todd Blanche, into the crosshairs now because he, of course, had been nominated for
as the Deputy Attorney General. So had everyone been confirmed and Matt Gaetz then stepped out of the running, Todd Blanch would kind of assume the role of Attorney General. But you know him, Kayla, very well from the Trump trial in New York and everywhere else because he is, of course, one of Donald Trump's main lawyers.
Yes. Todd Blanche getting nominated for that role was slightly less controversial, especially among lawyers that I talked to. He actually was a former federal prosecutor here in New York before he went into a private firm and then went to work for Trump.
And that's a really managerial job. Like he's somebody who's run a department before. And so people weren't surprised to see him be put in as the number two at the Justice Department if Trump's confirmation goes through. But a lot of people were wondering what that dynamic would be like between Trump
Matt Getz at the top and a Todd Blanche sort of, you know, a more, you know, a more traditional figure right underneath him. Regardless, Blanche is going to be doing a lot of day to day work running that agency. So he's still going to have a lot of power, no matter who's above him.
Yeah, it also, of course, will move the spotlight a bit to some of the other picks that we've seen from Donald Trump. You know, Katrina, we were talking a little bit earlier in the newsroom about Donald Trump's pick for defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, who, of course, there have questions been asked about.
him as well. There was a police report that had been released that had looked into an allegation that a woman had made against him. And his team says, look, the police report shows that there was no impropriety there and that this was a consensual relationship. But certainly that has raised questions about whether Pete Hegseth, who
is a military veteran, a decorated military veteran, we should say, is going to be the right person to run this department. We've heard Republicans raising that question as well. But I mean, what do you think, Katrina? You think that's going to be now perhaps more in focus?
I mean, yeah, it's been in a lot of focus really, hasn't it, alongside Matt Gaetz this whole time. And it's curious when you look at this in the context of history, because I remember past confirmation hearings, because people fell at the first hurdle because they were employing someone in their home who was maybe undocumented or didn't have the correct paperwork, or they had said certain things in past social media posts and so on. And
They seem to be in a different bag to what kind of some of the allegations that we're seeing against some of the individuals here. But, you know, that goes along to what we hear from Donald Trump all the time, that he's personally subjected to a witch hunt. And he says that of everyone in his entourage as well. So, you know, it is a very contentious time. We can't forget that Donald Trump had tremendous electoral success, of course, and he's president elect and Republicans will have confidence.
control of the House and Senate, but there are still a lot of very upset people on the other side of the aisle and that, you know, they're looking with a very fine tooth comb over all of these individuals who will be nominated. And there are still some positions outstanding as well that we haven't yet heard again at the time of speaking about who will be Treasury Secretary at this point in time.
One of the individuals in the running for that has been appointed Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, because, of course, he's also co-chair of the Trump transition team, right? So it is sometimes a bit unusual that the chairperson or the co-chair, the
themselves ends up with the job. But Howard Lutnick, obviously a very accomplished financier and very, very loyal member of Donald Trump's team is now in the Commerce Department. And that is the department that we know, again, subject to confirmation, is very dear to Donald Trump's heart.
Howard Lutnick, if confirmed, will be the person who, with the president-elect, will be bringing in tariffs. That falls into that department. Tariffs, of course, we know Donald Trump has described as one of the most beautiful words in the English language. And I was in Ireland there for a couple of days this week, and I can tell you there and in other parts of Europe, people are very, very nervous about what Donald Trump's trade plans
philosophy is going to mean for them, what the imposition of tariffs is going to mean for them. You know, we've heard Donald Trump say on the campaign trail and J.D. Vance and all of the team for that matter, that he wants to put tariffs of about 20% on all goods coming into the US and 60% on those coming from China, which will make things extremely expensive in this country. But of course, the idea being then that American manufacturers will bypass those foreign imports and
make and build and create those things here anyway. But it is making people on the other side of the equation very, very nervous. And of course, it leaves open the question of retaliation, doesn't it, that other countries might then put tariffs on American goods? One of the points that we've heard from Republican economic advisers is, look, this is also meant to be a negotiating tactic.
And, you know, you can't imagine that if you see something like 60 percent tariffs and you see certain goods in the U.S. become extremely expensive with the way that the economy dominated the election. You can't imagine that if that becomes an incredibly unpopular policy, that it would be one that the Trump team would pursue.
You know, he is looking, Donald Trump is looking for early deliverables. He's a transactional kind of guy. He likes to deliver on promises, be seen as a winner, all of that. That's what he did in his first term in office. That's what he intends to do now. So and there is certain parts of imposing tariffs that he can do with existing legislation or with
a straight up-down vote on the Hill, which he could get through quite easily. It doesn't need to be attached to budgetary legislation, which is much more difficult, as we've seen in past years, to get through the Hill. So I wouldn't be surprised if he does slap some tariffs on certain things, not universal, but in those first early days. And, you know, there will be a trickle-down effect before that directly impacts
prices and you know he'll be really turning the screw on American manufacturers then to take some of their overseas operations and bring them back into the US but it's definitely a very nervy time for international trade.
So we've looked at the latest cabinet picks from the president-elect and once again they're turning heads. Next, what about Donald Trump's outstanding legal cases? And where do the Democrats begin to rebuild their support and who will lead them?
I'm Crassi Twig, and on the documentary we zoom in on the backstory of the Syrian militant group that led a coalition of rebels to take control of Aleppo. Once an offshoot of al-Qaeda, HDS rebranded itself in its desire to be seen as a credible governing body. To listen to this episode of The Global Jigsaw, where we look at the world through the lens of its media, search for the documentary wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
If you're a maintenance supervisor for a commercial property, you've had to deal with everything from leaky faucets to flickering light bulbs. But nothing's worse than that ancient boiler that's lived in the building since the day it was built 50 years ago. It's enough to make anyone lose their cool. That's where Grainger comes in. With industrial-grade products and dependable fast delivery, Grainger can help with any challenge, from worn-out components to everyday necessities. Call Grainger.
I'm Katrina Perry, and this is The Global Story, where we bring you one big international story in detail. And every Saturday until the inauguration of Donald Trump on the 20th of January, we'll be bringing you an update on his path to the presidency. If you don't want to miss an episode, do follow or subscribe to The Global Story wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
Today, I'm chatting with my colleagues Sumi Somaskanda and Kayla Epstein. Kayla, I'm curious to get your reaction to the hush money case proceedings that we saw this week with the announcement that the prosecutors essentially are saying that they would be delaying possibly, at least that was one of the avenues that they're pursuing, that they would delay, put this case on hold now until possibly four years from now when Donald Trump completes his term. What
What did you make of what prosecutors said in this case? I mean, help us understand this, because it felt like they were, in a way, themselves trying to understand what leeway they have with Donald Trump about to enter office again. Yes, this is definitely a very suspenseful time when it comes to the Trump-Pashmoney trial, because basically, to rewind a little bit, what Trump's lawyers have asked for is for Justice Juan Merchan, who oversaw the case, to throw out the conviction that occurred earlier this year, because they argue that it would interfere with
with Donald Trump's ability to do his job as president. And they also are arguing that because of the US Supreme Court ruling about presidential immunity, which came out after Trump was convicted, that Trump's conviction should not stand. And so prosecutors are trying to find a way to preserve their conviction while also acknowledging the really
extraordinary circumstances and unprecedented circumstances that we find ourselves in. What the prosecution did was they filed a brief earlier this week and they said, you know, we plan to oppose any effort to throw out this conviction. But a few paragraphs down, they slipped in, you know, the judge to consider other
Other options, which could include delaying this until after he leaves office. And what lawyers and former prosecutors I spoke to believe is that that's what they were actually kind of asking for, because they see that as the likeliest scenario. They see it as an opportunity to sort of keep their conviction, but avoid the really thorny constitutional problems that might arise.
get a judge to think maybe I should throw out this conviction. Now, Justice Marchand can do whatever he wants. He could say no to both parties and say we're doing this on Tuesday, but he's gone rather quiet. And so we don't really know what he's thinking. There's no way to know what he's thinking. There's no way to know what he's going to do. But we are waiting for the judge to rule on whether or not the conviction should get thrown out and whether there should be a sentencing at all next week.
So after we recorded this conversation, the New York judge, Judge Merchant, as Kayla was hinting at there, did decide to pause all proceedings until he hears those briefs from both parties, which are due on the 9th of December. So this matter has not gone away yet, but this is another delay to the sentencing, as we've been discussing.
And Kayla, is there anyone ever, anywhere, who thinks that the President-elect may be given a custodial jail sentence?
I don't think anyone believes that could happen at this point for practical reasons, but also as well as the nature of who Trump is. You know, he's in his late 70s. He's never been convicted of a crime before, you know, even before he was elected. Legal experts, former judges I talked to said they really wouldn't expect for somebody who was convicted on their first offense to these kinds of charges would probably see jail. And now it's become, I mean, no one knows how that could work if it were to happen. You know, he's
surrounded by Secret Service getting the maximum level of security. He's about to be sworn into the Oval Office. You can't have a president in jail while also holding office. It's just impractical. So it seems like that's off the table.
Can we talk a bit about the other legal cases? Because I felt like we spent a year talking about the four major cases against Donald Trump and where they all stand. And the federal cases now with Donald Trump reentering office, well, he can obviously pardon himself, but he's not been convicted in the first place. So the federal cases now, where, I mean, where does, Jack Smith has wound down his case, essentially. Jack Smith in the alleged election interference case
he is now going to be leaving the Department of Justice. So there is no case. Yeah, I mean, they're not officially dead, but they're effectively dead, I think, because all Trump has to do is he has to take office, appoint his attorney general who decides not to pursue these anymore. You know, the attorney general who comes in
could fire Jack Smith if he hasn't left by the time Trump takes office, although it seems from reporting he's going to do that. And so, you know, there's just no way that a Justice Department under Trump, Trump who says that he wants the people he appoints to be loyal to him, who values loyalty above all else, who I can't imagine would appoint an attorney general who would not close the book on these cases.
Is there a sense that whoever Donald Trump's attorney general will be, that they may pursue cases against other individuals in relation to the 2020 election? Because as we know, there are many within the Trump world who still think that that election was not legitimate and was stolen and so on. Of course, there's absolutely no evidence for any of that. But
Is there any sense that this may not be the end of the legal wranglings of that election? What everyone took from the Matt Gaetz nomination was that Trump was heading in a direction of he wanted political retribution. He wanted more control over the Justice Department, which presidents are traditionally encouraged to stay away from in the post Watergate scandal era. The Trump really wanted to put his thumb on the scale a little bit more.
And if that nerdy process continues, and we love talking about nerdy processes on this show, and that date does get pushed beyond the 20th of January, does that then mean that it's fallen off a cliff or will it automatically be paused or what happens at that point once Donald Trump is president officially once again?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's very hard to see Justice Michon holding a sentencing hearing after Trump is sworn into office in late January. I think, again, to go back to what we were talking about before, this is why prosecutors kind of slipped in there. You could also just postpone this all until he's left office in four years, because then it wouldn't be the same kind of problem. He can't run for president again.
He's constitutionally barred from doing so. He will be a private citizen once again. Would it be extraordinary for someone to be sentenced four years after they were convicted? Yes. But, you know, with this case and all of Trump's cases, there's really no precedent for any of this is what I've learned after covering them for four years. It's just we we actually don't know how this is going to play out. Yeah, it's going to be really exciting and interesting the next months and years ahead. I'm
In the little time that we have left, I know we haven't talked about the Democrats at all. And obviously, the focus is on Trump and his transition team. I am really interested to see just the little battles that are happening, for example, over who should be the next chair of the DNC, because that will tell us a lot about the direction that the party is heading and also what's
which line of critique over what was responsible for the election loss actually is the one that's rising to the top. You know, if you go for a younger Democrat or somebody like Ben Wickler, who's the head of the Wisconsin Democratic Party, who is seen as obviously Donald Trump won Wisconsin, but Tammy Baldwin, the Democrat senator, held on to her seat there. And they did have some important gains in some precincts. So, you know, he's a name who has been floated from a key swing state. There are
A bunch of names that have been floated, like Chuck Rocha, who is a Latino specialist and is well known in the Democratic Party as well. It's fascinating to me to see which of the narratives that we've all been discussing is actually going to override the others. I think, yeah, you're right, Sumi, that's going to be really interesting in terms of how they all run their campaigns and who the party is.
ultimately chooses to move forward. I mean, after Donald Trump won in 2016, there was so many calls from within the Democratic Party for soul searching, going back to grassroots, you know, examining how they would move forward.
And they ended up running with Joe Biden in 2020. And as we know, what happened this year, sticking with Joe Biden until just a couple of months ago. And we saw how that played out. So, you know, they're talking all the same talk again about the soul searching and the need to go back to the grassroots. But I mean, you kind of think at this point they have to really. Yeah, I mean, losses are always a moment of introspection for the political party that doesn't win. The question for me is also, OK,
OK, say they produce a postmortem, say they do a big report about why they lost. Are they actually going to follow any of their own recommendations in four years? Are they going to be applicable? Like, I remember when Mitt Romney lost to Obama in 2012, the Republican Party did some soul searching and they said, we need to do more outreach to Latinos. We need to do more outreach to immigrants. And then.
the person that the party nominated four years later was Donald Trump, who made some quite controversial statements about people from Mexico. And so just because in this moment, a party soul searches and says, this is what we did wrong. This is what we need to do next. I'm not sure we can use that to predict what's going to happen in four years, who the nominee will be, what mold they'll be cast in. I think we're just about wrapping up now. I think that's all the time we've got. And also my legs have fallen asleep. So I think you better get a stretch.
Come over here. I'll get you a chair and a table. It was great to talk to you both, Cameron. This was great. What a wild week. And more to come, I suspect. Yes. All right. Thank you. Bye, guys. Bye.
So that's a wrap on another unprecedented week in US politics. As always, if you want to get in touch, please do. You can email us at theglobalstory at bbc.com, wherever you're listening in the world. Thanks for having us in your headphones. Bye-bye.
I'm Crassi Twig, and on the documentary we zoom in on the backstory of the Syrian militant group that led a coalition of rebels to take control of Aleppo. Once an offshoot of Al-Qaeda, HDS rebranded itself in its desire to be seen as a credible governing body. To listen to this episode of The Global Jigsaw, where we look at the world through the lens of its media, search for the documentary wherever you get your BBC podcasts.