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What is up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying this podcast, give us a rating, subscribe to the show. You know what to do. All right. My guest today is a world-class sales coach. He's helped companies such as Google, Cisco, HP, China Telecom, L'Oreal, Zinnia, Swarovski, American Express, and the list goes on. He is also an author. His new book is called Winning the B2B Sale in China.
He's helped countless teams and companies improve sales results through a few key principles, and we explore those today. We talk about building trust and how trust plays the key role behind every relationship, whether it's transactional or emotional. We talk about how to get the most from your coworkers and bosses. We talk about sales gurus. We talk about Steve Jobs and Tony Robbins. We discuss the varying levels of trust in different societies. And we talk about how the quality of your communication can determine the quality of
of your life. This all feeds into making the sale. One way or the other, we're all selling something. So this was a real fun chat. So without further ado, please give it up for CJ Ng.
Hi, how are you CJ? Good, and how are you?
I'm okay. Same old, same old with me. Same old, same old, right. So have you just got out of quarantine? I've just got out of quarantine. Is this your first day out of quarantine? This is my, I came on Monday. Oh, okay. So I'm, theoretically, I'm not supposed to be here until next Monday. Ooh, are we breaking some rules here? I don't know. It's a great area. They say, you know, don't go out unnecessarily. Don't go into large gatherings. Don't join a party. Yeah.
Yeah, I know you got whiskey on the table, but I don't think this is a party, right? No, no, no, no. Well, we can turn it into a party if you want. No, no, not today. I think going on a podcast, especially our podcast, is essential. Okay? So I think you get a pass for this one. Yes. Thank you for being here. No problem. My pleasure.
All right. So let's, you know, I feel like what you do is really interesting. I think there's a lot of relatable topics, like we said, that apply to what you kind of the field of research you do and the work you do and the talks you give.
and your new book. Thank you. So I want to make our way to the book, but let's just set kind of like a foundation here for our listeners. And I guess, you know, kind of introduce yourself a little bit. What do you do and what are you known for? Okay, my name is CJ and what I do, well, what I'm known for is I do sales training. I coach salespeople. I sometimes do a bit of consulting services for
companies that want to set up a distributed network or tweak a little bit about how to develop their sales teams competencies. Usually, sales is a very action-oriented kind of job or work, but my area of focus is we take care of the nerdy part in sales.
What do you mean by the nerdy part? Well, we go into companies, we go into sales teams and try to analyze what's working, what's not, what are some of the things that they should pay more attention to. It could be things like, is there something that the salespeople are not doing right? Is there a wrong behavior? Or it could be something that needs to be tweaked in terms of their
compensation benefits, how they lead the teams, how they strategize the territories, and so on. So what I meant by nerdy type is, you know, I think when we talk about selling in China, it's not going to be whiskey, it's going to be Baijiu. And 20 years ago,
20 years ago, if you ask people, if you want to hire a B2B salesperson or an industrial equipment salesperson,
what will be the number one criteria for hiring that kind of person? And 20 years ago in 201, it probably would be, how much can you drink? How much- - Alcohol tolerance. - Yes. Right, so, but if you fast forward to today, it's a totally different picture. And so by the nerdiness of what I'm doing is beyond the baijiu, beyond the waning and dining and the real dealer.
aspects. We help companies, we help sales teams look into what works and what doesn't work. I guess the science of making the sale, the art of making the sale? Probably, yeah. We try to be as scientific as possible with limited resources. And we try to give advice that are based on some facts or at least some objective observations. Well,
Well, what does it really boil down to, right? Because not everyone is a salesperson in terms of their job title, but I guess everyone is selling everything, whether they're selling themselves or selling their image or credibility or whatever it is in life they're selling. What do you think, if we want to bridge it to something that is kind of
relatable to everybody what can you boil it down to is it does it boil down to something as simple as uh people skills is it is that really what it is empowering people to achieve better results through people and communicate better and work better together and understanding how to talk and negotiate with people in a way it is i mean uh before i go into uh the the key thing that everybody
everyone can take away with. I'm just going a little bit about, since you mentioned working with people, working as a team and coordinating with people. Someone said, I forgot who said it, but someone said that good salespeople are able to sell to external customers.
Good salespeople are able to sell to external customers. What do you mean external? Outside of companies. They sell to regular customers. And great salespeople are able to sell to external customers, and they're able to sell to internal colleagues. So there's a lot of times when customers can have some very strange and unique requests.
And that can only be fulfilled by someone in the company, whether it's your R&D colleagues, your technical colleagues, supply chain, finance, your boss, whoever. And you need to kind of, within reason, be an advocate for the customer and convince them
your company or colleagues why they will need to work extra hard or go the extra mile for that customers of yours. So, in that sense, there are two aspects
aspects of selling. And a lot of people are just focused about how do we handle the external customers while working internally with our colleagues is probably being done not just by salespeople, but by most managers who need to, you know,
get a favor or get certain things done across different departments, across different BUs even. Or anybody that needs to work in a team environment, right? Yes, it is. And in a sense that, you know, sometimes the word team and department tends to get intermingled. Or sometimes
maybe your team are part of a department. Maybe your team is all your direct reports, right? So they're going to listen to you anyway. But, um,
In the broader essence, the team here will refer to cross-departmental teams. So you work in a team, but those people are not really your colleagues from the same department. They don't necessarily report to you. You will need to use your influencing skills to try to convince them, persuade them so that they help you with what you want to achieve. Going back to kind of boiling it down to people skills, how do we make this
applicable to kind of our everyday lives. Right. And that's where it is. And when we talk about selling, right, in the West, internationally, we like to talk about consultative selling skills.
In Asia, consultative is one technique or one way of looking at sales, but there's a higher emphasis on relationship selling. And I'm not saying that relationship is not important in the West or anywhere else outside of Asia. It still is. It's just that in Asia, in China, it probably will place a higher value on relationship. And if you look at relationships, any kind, doesn't have to be sales relationship, can be father-son, husband-wife, whatever.
Any form of relationship, the basis of that, it's going to be trust.
The higher the trust, the better the relationship, so to speak. So if you distill it to that core essence, then if anyone is able to build trust with the people they work, the people they communicate, the people they live with, they are going to get ahead so much more. They are going to get a lot more support.
in whatever they're doing, regardless if they're a salesperson or not. Yeah. So how do you... Okay, so this is a huge topic. I mean, how do you build trust? That seems like...
I feel like it seems like something that's overlooked, but so crucial in our relationships and our communications and in our everyday dealings. It is. So do you have a method? Do you have any secrets or secret insights into how you build trust? There are simple things to build trust. Now, first of all, before we go into the trust building, let's look into trust itself. Trust is not an on-off switch. It's not like I trust you or I don't. It's how much I trust you and how much you trust me.
So there are people who can trust each other with their lives, right? And we're not going to go into that. We're just talking about trusting each other as colleagues. So if I ask a colleague to help me to do certain things, I trust that colleague enough to get it done or
or at least if he or she is not able to get it done, I'll get a feedback and I'll know what I can do next. But that seems like a pretty low bar of trust, right? Just trusting enough for them to do something. Sure. I mean, right. But yeah, I mean, I guess you alluded to that. There's so many different degrees of trust. Exactly. And then when it, when it goes to sales, you,
whatever I'm selling you, you need to trust me enough to part with your hard earned cash for whatever I'm selling to you. So that may be bringing the trust bar a little bit higher, right? So it really depends. So we are looking at different magnitudes of trust. So it's not, what I'm arriving at is it's not an on-off switch. It's not about whether you trust or you don't trust. Although people tend to lose trust, right?
much quicker than they build trust. Oh, for sure. I can totally see. I mean, you can lose someone's trust in a second and it might take you 10 years to build someone's trust. It is, or never, right? So it takes a long time to build and it takes a very short while to lose. Now, when you're building trust, again, because we were saying it takes a long time to build, there are certain things that if you were to do day by day, it builds your trust credit.
Okay. Is it like a shortcut or just methods? They're just methods. Are there shortcuts to building trust? It really depends on how...
how intense you want to go at it. It could be shortened. I wouldn't say it's a shortcut. So it's a matter of how you want to work on it rather than having a shortcut to it. And this is built on, if you Google, there is actually this thing called a trust equation.
And I'm not going to give advice on the trust equation. I have a simplified version to that. And based on that trust equation, what we can distill is that there are just four lines. Number one, there are two shows, and there are, I think it's two talks or two speak. I'll come to that. So two shows, number one is to show you care.
So the key thing about trust is that
you are going to trust me because you know I'm not going to put you into some danger. I'm not going to screw you up. I'm not going to get you to help me do something and then throw you in the lurch, right? So I'm going to show some care that, no, I'll need a favor from you, but at the same time, I do care that, no, you probably have other things to do. When would be a good time to...
Ask for your resources. So it's about daily caring. And caring can be shown just by saying, have you had lunch? How was the weekend? How was family? And so on. So just show you care for the person in general. That builds trust. And of course, if you are able to show more care, it's likely to shorten the time required to build trust.
significant trust. So show you can, it's the first part. The second part, in a work scenario, whether you're a salesperson or whether just the average Joe working in a company, showing you can means you're a nice guy. But being a nice guy alone is not going to work if people are going to trust assignments, work, or work tasks to you. You need to show you can.
You need to show that you have the ability to get things done. Competency. Well, more than competencies. Competencies, definitely. But also, are you able to stick to work schedules? When you're falling short, are you able to master some other people to help you? Are you able to find the right resources to get things done? So it's about showing you can, whatever that general term can means. So show you can, show you can.
The third thing is to keep your word.
So if you promise something, it's somehow related to show you can, but over here, it's more like, are you able to deliver what you say you would deliver? Right? So if you tell... Are you reliable? Yes. Can I declare it dependable? Yes, dependable. So if you tell your customer you're coming in at 3 and then by 3.30, there's no sign of you, customer calls you, you can't be reached, and...
Yeah, customers are going to have certain doubts in you. The same thing for internal colleagues as well. Your colleagues ask you for a favor or to help in something, you say, no problem, 没问题, and then you end radio silence and the whole world are
or could be searching for you and there's no sign of you. So that is not keeping your word. And of course, we do understand that in today's world where there's a lot of uncertainty, right? Or you could be stuck in a traffic jam or something happened, or it could be the place you're staying has got COVID-19 and you're being quarantined. So you may not always be able to live up to all your promises. And when that happens, well...
inform the other person as soon as you can. Just let them know that I'm stuck somewhere, I have certain issues. If you are able to arrange for alternative plans, if I can't be there, can my colleague be there? Can we do this online or whatever? If there are alternative plans, all the better. But it's to just show that you are doing your level best to keep your word, right? And the fourth one is keep in touch.
You know, people tend to trust others whom they feel more intimate with. I'm not talking about the romantic sense. I'm just talking about, do I know you? Do we have frequent communication together? Yeah.
In our communication, do we understand each other's nuances and so on? And in the corporate world, sometimes some people, the kinds of people that we brand them, the word starts with an A and ends with an E with a few letters in between, right? I can say it, asshole. So those are the people that...
always come to you only when they need your help and they disappear without a trace when they're done with it, without a thing. So the key in getting people to like you, to be willing to support you, is that you are always keeping in touch. You are not there just...
only for times when you need help. Sometimes when you have excess capacity, you may offer help. Or just in general, be just keeping in touch just to find out how people are doing, what's the latest project, what's interesting about them. If you have a staff canteen, meet them up for lunch or bring them up for lunch, that sort of thing. So that actually helps to build rapport
between colleagues and it makes you less of an asshole, right? You don't want to only appear. In Chinese, it's 无事不登三宝殿, right? You're only there because you need a favor. So it makes others, well,
more willing to help you because they can relate to you. They know that you are not that kind of person. So it's just four things. And I'm not saying that it's a panacea for building trust, but some things that we can follow easily, just about show you care, show that you can, and keep your word and keep in touch.
Well, does this... So I have a few questions. Number one, you mentioned that this... You're using it in a context where you're talking about colleagues, right? And I guess colleagues are on the same kind of level. Right. When there's a power dynamic difference between a boss and his employees, does this still apply? It's the same, right? So the thing is...
Let's go and show you care. What does the boss need to be cared for most? And the boss needs to be cared for most is the boss's objectives.
The boss wants to do something or the boss wants to avoid some risks. What is on top of the boss's agenda? What are their priorities? So if you're able to show that, hey boss, I got you covered. I know you want to achieve this and these are some of the things that I've been doing to help you achieve this. That will go a long way with bosses.
Generally, bosses like to have solutions, not problems. They had a lot of problems to deal with already. So if you're able to say, hey, boss, there's something there. No, it's not a full solution. It may be a half-baked solution, but we are doing some groundwork so that we are able to support you when the need arises. So, yeah.
Once upon a time, I think I wrote something on LinkedIn about how to be the best employee that bosses want to have without sucking up to the bosses. Okay. How do you do that? It's just the way it is. I mean, you need to know what the bosses want to achieve. Just perform, I guess. Just perform and not any performance. And not just about performance metrics. It could be...
Your boss may have a feud with someone in the company or someone else, and you don't want to make your boss look bad. If your boss needs to get something done through that person that he really, really hates, can you be the interlocutor? Can you be the middleman to kind of speak on behalf of the boss? So it's about really thinking about...
what the boss needs and what are some of those things high on his or her agenda and how are you going to deliver those kind of things? Yeah, I think bosses really like employees who lessen their own workload. Definitely. Right? Who take the weight off their shoulders. I think that's
I think that's probably one of the main things bosses like. So you show you care, and if you're a capable employee, you show you can. Bosses love you. And if you promise about something, it's done on time or ahead of time, bosses love you even more. And there are so many employees that are so fearful about their bosses, they just run away. They just hide.
whenever the bosses are around. And the thing is that if you're able to increase communication, whatever kinds of communication with your boss, uh,
it makes it a lot easier to work with the boss. And the people that I know when they're working with bosses is that the bosses bring them out for lunches, they know the boss's family, they know what the bosses are doing outside of work, what kinds of aspirations the bosses may even have. And there is a lot of camaraderie between bosses and subordinates in that sense.
Yeah. Some anecdotes from my own personal experience. I just feel like in the kind of boss-employee dynamic, employers, well, for me personally, really hate when people only bring up problems.
Only point out the problems. I mean, obviously to be aware of problems in the company or in the business is very important. Otherwise you can't address it. But when that's all you do and without being a part of the solution or at least attempting to try to help with the solution,
it becomes very annoying almost. It's counterproductive at that point where you're only bringing up problems, but you're not being a part of the solution. And I feel that happens a lot. And part of it may be stemming from something you mentioned where sometimes employees are just afraid to speak up, right? They don't want to put their own ideas out there in fear of having to be responsible for those ideas later if they don't work out. Yeah.
And to that, it's just about giving a suggestion to the boss. Because ultimately, whether the boss says yes or no, it's the boss's responsibility, right? And you are just making a suggestion. Of course, there are bosses that are very much overly confident and say that, no, I don't need stupid suggestions. I'll just do it on my own.
If you get that as a feedback, okay, you know, then you don't have to give further suggestions anymore. But generally, bosses appreciate suggestions, especially if it's going to help in one way or the other. Generally, bosses appreciate it if you can commit some resources, whether it's your time, your expertise, or helping the boss get things done. You'll be much appreciated as well. Yeah, I think this applies to a lot of things. It's more, I mean, it's...
Being results-driven is great. It's useful, for sure. But in the real world, not everyone is going to have successful results all the time. Yeah, sure. And when that's the case, what's just as important, at least in my opinion, is understanding this person's...
kind of the way they think, the way they operate their logic and the way they compute and approach problem solving situations. And they don't have to give me like the greatest answer or the greatest solution or even having a solution that works. But as long as you can see, or I am showing that I am thinking in those terms, that goes a long way versus someone who doesn't think in those terms. You know, something that, you know,
you know, my old employer used to say to me was, you know,
When I tell you to do something, it's like telling you to do something from A to B. But if I say A to B, what I really mean is for you to also think of C, D, E, and F later, right? And not just stop at B. Sure, sure. And that was an eye-opening comment to me in terms of what, you know, they want you to see the big picture here and see it in terms of a boss's perspective in terms of the entire business. For sure, for sure. Now, sometimes it's simpler than that.
Let's say this guy A has got an assignment from the boss and he needs to work with B in order to get things done. And the problem with B is that B is also busy with whatever things he needs to do with his boss. And as a result, he's not really helping wholeheartedly with A. And what should A do? Now,
A lot of time, some people will say that, oh, if B is not helping me, if I'm A and B is not helping me, what I'll do is I'll go to my boss and my boss will go to his boss and then things will happen, right? It's called escalation. Now, the problem with that is that you are going to piss off B, right?
You are going to piss off B's boss and you are also going to piss off your own boss. Because what you are saying to a boss is, boss, this is your shit. This is your problem. Now, talk to B's boss so that I can get shit done. Right? So,
It's not really helpful in that sense. And like what you just say, bosses generally like to have solutions, not problems. If I'm the boss, I just gave you an assignment and then...
in a short time, you just came to me and asked me to talk to this other guy's boss, right? So who's the boss here? Am I the boss or are you the boss, right? So those are the things that bosses really dislike. What they would like to see, even if you don't have a full solution, what bosses like to see is what have you been speaking with to be with? What are some of the things that you have tried to negotiate with B, right?
What are some of the workarounds that can be done? And what are those things that when you try to work around, maybe you need some additional approval?
Maybe you need some additional ideas. And that's when the A goes to the boss and the boss can actually add value or make decisions or give approvals. That's what bosses like to see. That's where the value is. That's where the reason for their existence come in place, to make decisions so that things move forward. Yeah. Yeah, and that's why I think you can't just be looking always at results because...
the success of certain results, there's so many variables that might dictate that in terms of they got lucky or they happen to have a good relationship with that one person in this one instance. Whatever it is, it's more important to invest in the long term in the way people operate, right? And you can invest in that long term because you know they will apply that same logic or that same method or that same way of operating to all things. And if that's a way that you
agree with that you see value in, it's more important to invest in that versus short-term results. Sure, definitely, yeah. But also one thing, you know, I think this conversation so far, you know, we've been talking about, you know, co-workers in a kind of a co-working setting where you kind of have time to build and work on the four or five things that you were talking about to kind of build trust with people. Sure.
But I feel like for most people, when they think of making a sale, right? They think of like the elevator pitch. You have 30 seconds to get to sell this person something, right? This reminds me of, you remember, you see that movie Wolf of Wall Street? Yeah. And they were giving, I think that guy, Jordan. Jordan, yeah. Jordan Belfort. He was giving a talk and he was like, I used to do this test where, you know, like sell this pen. Sell me this pen. Yeah, sell me this pen right now. Yeah. So-
The idea is you have a very limited amount of time to close the deal. And so how do you address that? Because we've been talking about kind of coworkers. You have a long time to build trust with coworkers. You have a very limited time, like you said in the beginning, to deal with external customers. Mm-hmm.
Right, and that is where B2B and B2C come in play. B2B means business-to-business. They're selling to an organization, and B2C is selling to consumers. It's selling to individuals. So if you're selling in the B2C space, like if you're selling a Frappuccino, if you're selling a pen, so to speak, the customer will decide, I like that pen, I'll buy it, or I don't like the pen, I just don't buy it. And there's no...
It's purely transactional. There is no, there's hardly after sales. There's nothing to build a relationship upon. It's just take it or leave it. And there may be some price haggling. And basically that's that. So when you're selling B2B, chances are there are going to be more than one person who is going to be responsible for making the buying decision.
And because there's going to be multiple people, it's likely to go through multiple rounds. The whole sales process can drag on for months or even more than a year. So you have that long period of time to build that trust and build that relationship before you end up with a sale. So that's the difference. Also, yeah.
you know, if you're talking about pen, now, let's say Montblanc pens, right? Once upon a time, Shanghai is famous for Montblanc pens, although not the real ones. Once upon a time, right? And so, if you sell a Montblanc pen in a Montblanc shop, then...
then there's no questions about prices. It's just either you take the price or you go and that's it, right? If you have other thoughts about prices, you would not even be stepping into the shop in the first place. You go to some, what do you call, dingy little street corner and that guy tries to offer you a Montblanc pen with inverted comma, then it's really...
There's no level of trust in that. Of course. You know it's going to be a fake. It's a matter of, will that fake break down within a day or a week or a month? So, I mean, yeah, it all boils down to trust, I guess. Yes. But going back to what you were saying about the B2C sale, when you're selling to an individual,
Yeah, like, I mean, I see it as heavily transactional too, but is that all it is? I mean, because a lot of the, I guess, a lot of the movies we see and, you know, all this stuff would make you believe that there is an art to it, that some people have the ability to make the sale right there on the spot, deliver the pitch. And I'm thinking, is that more about selling the product or service or selling me as a person to this person? Okay.
I would say, you know, in these days, if you Google around, if you look at YouTube, there is this terminology called a fake guru. Yeah.
And what if it grew less? I'll tell you that, join this course for free. I'm going to give you 37 secrets of how to make lots of money without anything down. Yeah, there's a bunch of those. There's a bunch of those. And then the moment you go to the course, you're hooked because it goes to the bigger thing. Now you've got to pay money, right? Otherwise, I'm not going to let you in on real secret. So on those...
On those levels, what those people are doing is to sell an aspiration. They're not selling themselves. They try to give you the facade that they are really successful and they can make your deepest desire come true. And that's where we're at. And in a way, yes, you can make a fervent pitch and people may buy, right? And if you look at it in a more positive way,
Steve Jobs, iPhone, right? If you look at iPhone version one, that's in 2007.
And what Steve Jobs did was over an hour outlining how the current phones suck, why you deserve much better, and how he's going to deliver something that's totally out of the world, that no one else in the next five years are going to deliver something that even come close. So that's how he appeals it. Are we buying to Steve Jobs to a certain extent?
I'm sure. But he's trying to address a certain hidden need that you don't even know you have.
Because before the first iPhones come out, no one has got this idea that there is this touchscreen smartphone that makes your life so easy. - Well, isn't he also famous for saying, I might be misquoting him, but I think he was also famous for not wanting to do like customer surveys in terms of what they want with the iPhone, because they're like, they've never even seen this. They have no concept of this. How do they know they even want this?
or don't want this until I show them. Steve Jobs shared a lot of things with Henry Ford. So Henry Ford say something like, it's going to democratize automobiles for the masses with the Ford Model T, something that's cheap, standard, and easily available. And Steve Jobs tried to use the same term, democratizing computers,
for the rest of us. So that's what it did with the Apple II, with Macintosh. But what does that really mean? That means just make it accessible to everybody? Well, it makes it, yeah, in a way accessible, usable, that people like it and want to use it, right? And the other thing about what Henry Ford say about customer survey is, you know, if at that point of time, at the turn of the century, if...
Henry Ford were to do a customer survey about what customers want, customers will just answer they want to have faster horses. Because in those days, it's horse-drawn carriages, right? So no one has got this idea of an automobile or a car. So if you do a customer survey then, it's just about horses and carriages. No customers or no consumers are going to say, I want a car.
And it's the same situation that Steve Jobs faced when he was trying to introduce kind of a totally breakthrough product. Yeah.
But the thing, obviously, that he had going for him was not only his famous charisma and his speaking abilities and his salesmanship, but, I mean, he had the iPhone on stage with him and he was demonstrating. Like, the product was there. It wasn't just trusting him to deliver on this product. The product was already developed and there in his hands and he was demonstrating. So that's, like, it's unrefutable at that point.
At that point, the iPhone, he only had a workable version of the iPhone that morning. So it was really that close to having a flop in terms of... But imagine if he didn't... Imagine if...
they didn't make the deadline with that iPhone. So he had to go up on stage, give his talk without the demonstration. Do you think it would have the same results? - No, no, no. It's gonna fail. It's gonna blow. So in a way, in that demo, right, Steve Jobs showed he cared because you are using phones that suck, right? So I care about you. I'm gonna make you something that's gonna improve your life. So I care for you.
I'm showing I can because I'm not just BSing with what could be. I got the product in my hand. It's here, it's a working model. I'm gonna keep my word. I'm gonna tell you when you can get it in stores.
Whether it's today, whether it's end of the week, or whenever. So I'm going to keep my word to that. And with all his snippets about what's going on with Apple, that's keeping in touch. So in a way, he kind of ticked all four things with a very consumable product. Okay, what are your thoughts on someone, because we brought up these...
I don't want to use the fake for everyone because I don't know where you stand on this. So I don't want to step on any toes. But what do you think of people like Tony Robbins? Someone really mainstream like that, who's, I guess, this quote unquote life coach, sales coach, leadership coach, whatever you want to call it. Right, right. A guru. Yeah.
I mean, what do you make of him? Well, I've actually been to Tony Robbins' Unleash Your Power Within many, many years ago in Singapore. And I actually did the firewalking thing in Singapore as well. I've had other guests who've attended that too. So I'm curious. So I wouldn't use the word guru on him. I would say that he's a good motivational speaker.
He's got good tips on how you can give yourself resonance and strong, compelling reasons why you want to work harder and achieve something that is more or less of a stretch goal. So that, yeah, I'll give him credit on that. Some of the things he said are based on certain studies in psychology. And without going into...
what do you call, heaps of tons of equipment
academic materials to just make it in a very simplistic form that, no, you just need to know how to use it. You don't need to really understand the science behind it. So, so in, in, in terms of that, uh, it's, yeah, he does his job and it's great. Uh, but at the same time, I, I wouldn't, uh, want to say that he's a guru, that he, he really can solve every single problem that you face or, or a specific business problem that, uh, or issue that you face. Uh,
He is good in instilling you a sense of self-motivation and that's that. Well, how helpful was he for you personally? Well, I would say that at that point of time, I was kind of thinking of whether to leave a certain job or not, and I was kind of in two minds. And in a way, he made me, what I call, face up with what could be my inner fear.
And think about what's the worst that can be and make me make that decision. Well, so what is the, they call it the fire walk. What do you do? Like what is your walk over coals? Yeah, it's hot coals. But the thing is that actually your souls, our souls, not S-O-E-L, but the other links are feet. Bottom of our feet, yeah.
The soles of our feet are made of very thick skin. Yeah. So if you walk fast enough, you won't feel a thing. Okay. Right? So it's more like a metaphor. So as I said, you got this hot burning stuff and it's really hot burning stuff. So it's truly just hot cold. It's truly hot cold. Okay. Right? But the thing is that if you have hesitance, if you kind of walk
walk on there and then you do not dare to take the next step, you are going to get burned. Right? So they've got ushers to help you to make sure that you really hurry yourself across because they don't want to go into any kind of liabilities that people get their feet burned. Right? So if it's, in a way, it's a good metaphor to say that if there's something that's blocking you from where you want to go, uh,
Maybe just take a deep breath and just go right through. Maybe the best solution rather than you go halfway and then you hesitate and then you get stuck and then you get burned. It's kind of a metaphor just being more decisive to do things. And one of our colleagues, our friends, what he did is to do it a different way, a more accessible way. Because
Because if you do a workshop, it's not every single workshop that is feasible to have hot coal and get people to walk across, right? So what I did was to have what are called karate boards or kung fu boards, breaking boards. Oh, breaking boards. Yeah, so you get those boards that people actually use in martial arts training and get as participants, whether you have a martial arts background or not, everybody will break the board.
So in a way, it's a metaphor. It's a matter of, you know, are you able to master enough will and have that burst of power and go for the breakthrough? Okay. Okay. So we talked about building trust. I guess really quickly, are there ways, I mean, I guess with all the experience that you've had in this field, are there ways that you can spot people who you can't trust?
In a way, yeah. In a way, yeah. I mean, of course, there are people who really worked hard on being evasive or being undetectable that they really want to go out there and screw you.
But for the usual things, things like if someone is not trying to be honest, they may want to hide some information. When they ask for details or scanner details, they'll try to wriggle their way out of that situation.
You ask for referrals, ask for who else has used it, and they really come short with the right answers, or you check with references, and those are fake references. So those are some telltale signs. And in this day and age, if something happens that sounds too good to be true,
it's likely to be too good to be true. Right. Um, there are also people who try to, uh, create a facade where, uh, I'm, I'm talking behind this, um, uh,
well-known organization. When in fact, when they collect money from you, they kind of use a sleight of hand and use a different money collection agency, so to speak. So they're not really upfront with the US and are they really working for this big organization or are they doing some sideline thing elsewhere? Yeah. I mean, I think this is such a reoccurring issue here in China. Mm-hmm.
especially is this idea of trust. Can I trust this person? Can I trust this company? Can I trust this WeChat account? Whatever it might be. It's always reoccurring. And I don't know, growing up in the West, obviously trust is a big issue anywhere in the world. But it just never seemed to me, maybe just because I was younger then, but it never seemed to me to be so much at the forefront of
of everyone's decision-making. Maybe people are just more naive there, they're more trusting. I don't know. But it just feels like here for everyone's decision, the main thing that comes up before they make a decision on anything is really trust. It reoccurs, it reoccurs, oh.
all the time. And it seems to be a huge, overwhelming topic. It's not just China. In fact, countries or cultures that has a less emphasis on trust are the minority.
It's just the earlier industrialized nations. So it could be Northern Europe, North America, because it's people from Northern Europe that migrated to North America in the first place. So the early industrialized countries tend to have a bigger placement of trust in the law,
in social fabric, social systems, that there is a lesser need to trust a person because they know they'll be covered by the law. - Because they were industrialized earlier? So they had more time?
I don't know whether it's the industrialization process or is it because of the Magna Carta, you know, the time where the lords of England actually force the king to give away some of his powers. And then it's not about what the king says, but what the law says. That's the law of land. So I don't know. It could be either ways. But what we see is the...
the early industrialized nations tend to focus on a trust for the law, and everywhere else, it's more like there's a greater focus on the trust on people than the law. So in Chinese culture, so if you and I were to have any kind of dispute, right, usually we try to settle it ourselves. We may...
get some respectable mutual friend, you know, in old days, the village elder or someone who's higher in social standing to kind of mediate that issue. And that's that. We try whatever it takes to avoid going to the authorities.
Because the moment if either of us go to the authorities, that's the end of our relationship whatsoever. Yeah. And there's no turning back at that point. There's no turning back. So in Chinese, it's called si po lian. You tear their face. That's the end. So it's something that people want to avoid. And there is a much higher emphasis on mutual trust, trusting the law.
And if you turn it around and look at the industrialized nations, people can be suing each other and they can still be doing business together. So it's a different emphasis and it really depends on what works in a different culture. Yeah, that's true, right? The cultural aspect is huge on this one.
And yeah, I agree. I mean, I would think back, let's say if we turn the clock back in America, North America, you know, back when it was industrializing or even if you go before in like the Wild West days, I'm sure that it was very chaotic and there was no trust in the actual structure of the laws. It was more you had to depend on people and relationships as well. Yeah.
- Yeah, we just had a, this reminds me, we recently had a guest, Jeff Fuchs on the podcast and he's a Himalayan explorer, right? And he was like the first Westerner to travel by foot the length of the , the ancient T-horse road.
And he was talking about, you know, it's at that time the commerce was and safety even was all built around relationships you knew with people to know which routes to go, to know who to work with, who not to work with. And something that he said at the end of the podcast that really resonates and that reminds me of kind of a lot what you're talking about as well is he was saying that
Most expeditions, because he takes these mountain expeditions, he leads them. He says most expeditions fail not because of people's ability to do the expeditions, but it's the personalities, the communication, and the relationships between the people who are going on the expeditions.
And that reminds me a lot of what you're talking about in kind of a setting where you have to work and communicate and trust other people. Oh, absolutely. I mean, if the same concept can be put straight away in the modern workplace, right?
Most projects fail not because you didn't plan enough, not because the people working on a project are not professional enough. It's because of communication. It's the people factor that cause projects to delay, specs are not reached, the scopes are not reached, and people try to add scope without adding other things and just end up in the real mess.
And that's something in my own life that I feel really rings true. I feel like executing on things is pretty simple when you look at the actual execution. It's pretty black and white, right? I mean, they can be complicated, but there are steps that are open and transparent, and you just have to do these things and you get to the destination. And it's always somewhere in between these steps, it's always some human element that comes into play that...
that that throws a wrench in the whole process it is yeah it's always the case i feel okay so i want to get to because i want to make sure we have enough time to get to your new book winning the b2b sale in china yep right witness the evolution of the selling landscape in china um what what made you want to write this book well uh
There are so many misconceptions about selling in China. And the misconceptions don't just come from international companies. They don't just come from some laowais sitting in the corporate office about 10,000 miles away. Not just that. Even Chinese salespeople operating in China has got gross misconceptions about what is relationship, what is kuan shi, how do you leverage a relationship and make the sale.
Yeah, there's a lot of myths, right? There's a lot of myths. There's a lot of stereotypes and myths that people just automatically buy into that one might not be true or that were true but not true today, right?
- Yes. - In terms of the changing landscape. - Yeah, and I'll just give one. Someone said, "Oh, the definition of a Guanyin setter is you go for this entertainment, you have lots of drinks, and then eventually you give a good price and you get a deal." - Yeah, KTV. - Yeah, KTV, entertainment, you get a good price and get a deal. Now, I'm not being the moral police here. I'm not going to have any moral judgment on KTV and stuff.
The thing is that if you really have a strong relationship, price should not be the key factor. If you feel that you call your customers brothers, your customers call you brothers, and at the end of the day, they are still squeezing you for price, all you get is you're being abused for the relationship.
Is that always the case, though? I mean, at the end of the day, it's business, right? You've got to watch out for costs. You've got to turn a profit. Sure, sure. So isn't it, at the end of the day, I mean, this could be a very Western perspective. I can go into this later about my own personal experiences with that. But, I mean, being price-driven, I think, is also very crucial, no? Well, there is a difference between price and cost.
Okay. Okay, and how do I mean by that is this. Now, assuming that you're buying a car, right? And forget about the licensing fees, the 牌照费 and all that. So just a car, and you have a license plate. And let's say you buy a car for 200,000 RMB. Okay? That's the price you pay for the car. Now, the cost of having the car could be
your fuel, right? How much gas this car is going to swallow or if it's an electric car, how much power this car is going to use per whatever distance you're traveling. It could be maintenance, right? Does the car break down every other day and you need to spend lots of money on maintenance? Are you going to beautify your car a little bit by having a different color for the paint, some fenders, some sound systems, so to speak?
And the list goes on. So the price of a car is just the price of a car, right? And there are other things to consider that goes into what is known as the total cost of procurement or the total cost of ownership of whatever product that you're buying, right? And sometimes I ask people that, you know, if it's a car, a new brand, you don't know about the brand, but the price is very...
- Attractive, competitive. - Attractive. - Okay. - And just to soothe your fears, they are going to give you five years warranty on parts and services. Right? - How can you say no? - Well, sometimes you gotta look in deeper because yes, they can give you warranties and all that, but what if your car breaks down every three days?
And then they need two days to kind of fix the problem. But I mean, you're painting, I agree with your example, but you're painting a very clear example of a situation I feel everyone would agree with. Like, of course, you know, that's, but I feel like,
In the real world, usually it's not that obvious, right? And it might not be even that different in terms of going with two different services or two different suppliers or whoever, right?
And the prices are different, but you might make the judgment that at the end of the day, their quality of service probably isn't that different than their price would reflect. And I think that's a common instance. And so how do you balance that? How do you balance, I guess...
the relationship element versus the pricing element. I'll just give a quote of a study that was done globally, including China, but mainly in the Western world. And the study was done over, I don't know, more than 10 years. They interviewed around 80,000 customers, B2B, industrial solutions and stuff like that. So 80,000 customers. And one of the questions was, what made you buy from your supplier?
And it's a multiple choice question. So it could be quality, it could be price, it could be brand, it could be anything. And one of the choices is the salesperson. And 39% of the respondents responded salesperson, right? And that's almost 40%. It's not the biggest, it is the biggest question
And it's not overwhelmingly big. It's not more than 50%, but it's the biggest criteria or factor that people come to mind when they choose to buy from a B2B supposedly rational kind of buying process. And ultimately, it's a salesperson. Now, if we were to kind of look back at the study or try to analyze it, in a way, if you're comparing with products of the same level,
So we're not comparing, say, Ferrari with a Volkswagen. Yeah. Right? So it's Ferrari and Lamborghini, that sort of thing. So it's on the same level. If you look at price, is there a difference? There will be. Is that a lot? Probably not. Are there differences in quality, in functionality, in even after-sales service? Probably there are differences, but it's not going to be a lot.
The key differentiator is the salesperson, and the salesperson who can actually give the buyer some peace of mind. If I run into some problems, I give you a call, you...
master all your internal resources and help me with it. And maybe you can do something to avoid me from having that problem in the first place. And there's this implicit trust that, no, out of these different salespeople, I think I'm going to go with you because for some reason I find that I have more peace of mind working with you. That also includes into what should I buy?
Now, I buy industrial equipment, but what should the specs be? What should the add-ons be? What should the configuration be? And if you are able to give the advice that is in my interest and not just to try to sell more things that I don't need, it's recommending things so that I can achieve a higher level of productivity,
And I'm going to trust you more and I'm going to be more inclined to be buying from you. Even though your price can be a little bit higher than the other guys, I'm still going with you. I want to change gears a little bit here. There was a post that I saw, I think it was on your LinkedIn, that you made. And it was titled, How to Make the Sale When There's No Obvious Need. Yep.
- I think that's very interesting because I think that is probably a dilemma for most people who are selling something, right? - Sure, yeah. - There's probably the mass majority of people they confront probably don't need what they're selling or it's not obvious.
So how do they come through? How do they close that deal? Right. And before I go into how they close the deal, I just want to go and give some context on why that was mentioned. Because a lot of Western selling skills providers are saying that you need to find the pain, right? You need to define the need and understand the pain of need. If the problem doesn't go away, what are some disastrous consequences that the buyer or the customer is going to face?
And in reality, especially in China or in Asia, number one, customers generally are quite happy with their current suppliers. They are not the best suppliers,
but they're not complaining either, right? They're not as bad suppliers, but the customers are not complaining either. Two, whatever you're selling is likely something that has been fulfilled by some other supplier, some other competitors, right? So your customers are happy with what they're having. You may have a better solution,
Better customers don't really have a strong desire to say, screw it, I'm not going to buy from this supplier, I'm going to buy from you. Especially in B2B, where the B2B world is the concept of predictability and stability. If I've been doing business with you,
And if I've been doing business with a supplier that I don't really like, they usually has got this and that issues. But because those issues are so predictable,
I know what I need to do to fix them. Now, if I were to change to some other supplier, that other supplier may resolve those issues that my current supplier have, but... It might be new problems. Yeah, exactly. And it's unknown problems. It's like going... What's that phrase? Uh...
Go with the evil you know versus the evil you don't. Don't, yeah, exactly. So it's like I'm going with the evil that I don't know or devil that I don't know, and it could be worse. So that's the situation. So one way to talk to customers is that, no, I understand you have a good supply relationship, and what will be some areas that you'd like to see improved? So we're not going to position ourselves as the saviour.
We may be positioning ourselves as a partner to see that could there be some ways that whatever you're using, there could be some certain aspects that can be improved upon. And sometimes, of course, customers say, yeah, sure, if I can get it cheaper. So it's the price again. Fine. And what else besides price? Are there some other areas that can help you achieve a better result or
reduce wastages or reduce risk, right? So we try to drive the conversation towards there. And it may need more than a couple of conversations before the client and the customers actually open up and share with you exactly what needs to be done. But basically, the positioning is, no, how can I help you get an improved version of whatever you're doing?
Yeah. Well, I guess because, you know, most people who are selling some sort of product or service, right, they don't have the luxury of having that new breakthrough product like the iPhone where they can really just rely on the product selling itself and be like, look, this is the future. Sure. Hop on board. Sure. Most people, like you said, are selling something that is most likely already in the market and probably a lot of competitors and quite common already.
And so, but I feel like it's so obvious in terms of trying to push the narrative to what else can I fulfill for you? But at the end of the day, people, I mean, this could be a massive generalization. I don't know maybe what the temperature is now in the market, but it just seems consumers or buyers in general are just still very stuck on being price driven. They want the best price.
I would say that price definitely is a key factor, but it's never the only factor. But does it weigh? Do you feel it weighs more than the other factors? No. It is a key factor. It will not weigh more. As in, if you put everything equal, it will not have a weight more than 50%.
It will not be because it's cheap, I'm going to screw other factors. I'm going to buy just because it's cheap. Because if you look at, forget about the B2B part for the moment and just go to B2C part. Why are we selling that many iPhones? They're not the cheapest products.
Why is it that someone just got an iPhone 12 last year and they just need to have that 13 this year? And just about everything that you look at and price is a factor, but it's not the deciding factor. People want to know what they're paying for. They're not going to pay more than what they can get.
So if I value this thing at a certain price, I'm not going to pay more than that. But if you're telling me this thing is going to be good in certain aspects, whether it's functionality, whether it's brand, whether it's image, it's going to be great in a certain way.
I'm willing to pay for it. If I feel convinced about it, I'm going to pay for it. Earlier on, you were saying that, no, companies don't have the iPhones. Actually, companies do have the iPhones because some, especially German companies, European companies, they really have equipment, motors, machines that are really way top. And they really are a price top dollar company.
and they capture something like 10 to 15% of the market, right? And if you look at iPhones, that's the same thing. Most of the smartphones in the market are not iPhones. Right? So they do have the iPhones. The only challenge they have is they don't have the iPhone SE.
They don't have cheaper versions or lower scope, lower spec versions of themselves that they can sell to a lower-rank market. That's the issues that they're facing. And they're not willing to do that because just because you lower your price does not mean that people are going to lower their expectations.
Right. And I'm going to use a B2C example to illustrate that. I have a friend, it's mentioned in the book anyway, the story, when COVID was more or less under control last year, there were a lot of promotional events
promotions for hotels elsewhere and she was going to somewhere in Shandong anyway and thought that oh there's this nice hotel in Qingdao overlooking the sea it's five stars super great and it's now having like 50% off
And it's like crazy prices that normally she wouldn't even thought about going to that hotel. But since you've got this uber luxury hotel, sell at half the price. She thought it's a good idea to go with her husband for a second honeymoon. And to cut a long story short, she said after the trip, she said she's not going to step into that hotel ever again.
What was mentioned, normally the simple things that we expect from a uber luxury hotel, buffet breakfast, right? No buffet. You've got set lunchbox. That's a deal breaker for me. That's a deal breaker for me. And it's not mentioned in the TNC. It's just that you've got this discount, right? And the reason, the rationale for that is that because there are not enough customers. So it doesn't make sense for the hotel to have buffets.
The swimming pools and gyms are out of bounds because of fear of contagion, right? Because of the lack of customers, they cut the service staff by, I know, a huge factor. So people could not get service that they deserve and a whole host of things. Now, if it's not this uber luxury brand that is selling at this price, if it's just...
a typical hotel that usually sells at this price, I think my friend would not have an iota of complaint. - No, we would accept it. - Really? - Yeah, we wouldn't even be, we wouldn't bat an eye at it. - Yes, exactly. But it's because, oh yeah, this is a great hotel. - 'Cause your standards and expectations are elevated super high. - Exactly, yes. - I had a similar experience recently. I won't name the hotel, but I went to a, it was a very nice hotel. And when we got there,
we found out that their restaurants are only open two to three days out of the week and close the rest of the day. So depending on what day you're there, the restaurants are open or closed. So they didn't have their full amenities open to you. And it was like they were on a part-time schedule. And they said it was because there wasn't enough guests. Yes.
And, you know, from the guest point of view, from the customer's point of view, it's like, I don't care if there's enough guests. I came here for these services. You know, you can't just cut the services in half just because there aren't other guests coming. You know, you have to still service the guests that are there. Yeah. But I mean, from a cost perspective, I guess I can understand if I'm a business owner. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think maybe for many people, when we talk about trust,
What might come to mind is, well, not the obvious things, right? Or not the more, I guess, in my opinion, maybe more simplistic things where, oh, can you trust this brand? I mean, most people know, have an idea or have a good idea of what brands, what services they can trust, what they can't, what products they can, what they can't.
And they go by brand reputation and all this. But when you're dealing with people, and people that you don't have the luxury of spending a lot of time with necessarily, maybe just acquaintances, maybe people you come to passing and you just know, but you don't really know that well. And we know that, like we said earlier, the human factor is the biggest variable in everything. Mm-hmm.
is how do you trust people? Because there are a lot of people who might do all the four things that you said, but do it with the intent purely to gain someone's trust. Meanwhile, they might not be trustworthy. It could be.
- That's where the professional conman comes in place. They want to win your trust and then betray you later. - Yes. I mean, but I think that's what most people might jump to because I think most people, whether they're right or wrong,
have some sort of confidence in themselves to feel like, you know what? I have a pretty good gauge. I have a pretty good radar. I don't think many people are gonna be like, well, I'm just totally oblivious. I'll trust anyone. No, people like you and me will probably go around thinking of ourselves like, you know, I have a pretty good sense of who to trust, who not to trust.
Whether that's true or not. But it's those special cases, right? Or when the stakes are really high, you know, who can I really trust? Is this someone that's just out to get my money? Is this someone out to steal my information? Mm-hmm.
whatever the case may be, how can I really trust that? And I think that is kind of, at least for me, is where my mind jumps to in terms of this idea of trust. Yeah. Is those, I guess, more rare instances. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, can you speak on that at all? Well, um,
From the part of selling, as far as selling is concerned, especially as B2B selling, it's unlikely that either side is trying to pull a con job of the other. Because the thing about B2B is always a sustainable way
workable business. I'm not going to sell you once and screw you over and I'm going to run away. Well, B2B is also easier because you can look up the company you're dealing with, right? Like, I mean, have they been around? Are they reputable? Have other people worked with them? Yeah. I mean, if they're just a business kind of out of nowhere that you can't know, you don't know anything about, then you will definitely...
think twice about working with them. Sure, sure. And in any case, B2B is a business model that people will try to work for longer term, both sides. So, and when you're looking out for the future, you probably do not want to screech out just to make some small savings out of it. Right? So that's, that's,
easier, it's a simpler ecosystem to work in. Now, on a personal level, one thing to do, and even within corporate governance, no matter how much you trust a certain person, you may want to make it, you don't want to give temptations
willingly. So, so it's like, I trust you and because I trust you, I'm going to, I'm going to put cash on the table. I'm going to put valuables unlocked on a table. I'm going to, I'm going to give all my details, my credit card details, my bank info to you without any accountability. Right. In a way, yeah. Like protect yourself at the same time. Yeah. I mean, you don't do stupid things to what we say, tempt others to conning you. Hmm.
So it could be a trustful relationship in the first place, but you are kind of throwing money and valuables everywhere that people are thinking that, hey, this guy seems like a good bait. An easy mark. An easy mark, right? So you don't want to go in that direction also. Yeah, but I think, yeah, well, that's very true. You don't want to be totally...
naive in that sense. But I guess when you're dealing with individuals and I don't know, I guess it's such a murky area, right? Like when, let's say they ask for something or they ask for a favor or they ask for certain information from you. It's like, ooh, like I feel like I can trust this person, but I don't know. There is this thing called a move in small steps, right? And that works in martial arts and that works in negotiations, that works in sales, right?
Moving small steps is like, you know, you're a customer, I'm this startup, I'm unknown in the market, I don't have a track record, but whatever I present, it sounds great, but then again, I don't have a track record. So what do you do? Instead of buying that multi-million dollar thing that I'm pitching to you, is there something that you can buy and test it out that does not, no, if it goes south, if it goes south,
Your risk capital is minimal, right? And you just want to try out this upstart and see, you know, am I really as good as I made up to be? And can I really deliver as I promised? So in a way, that's just how you move in small steps. And sometimes from sellers as well, and to say that, no, we gauge the customer. Are they willing to take the leap to really change everything to our stuff?
or are there a lot of concerns and doubts and maybe I'll just give some lower hanging fruit that makes it easier for us to do business with. And don't underestimate the lower hanging fruit because most of the time, if you go for public bidding,
the winners, I don't know, I forgot the exact number, something like close to 70 or 80%, like 80% of the time, the winning bidder will go to an existing supplier.
Of course, if you have been supplying larger stuff, then your chances of winning will be much higher. And this is global. It's not just China. It's everywhere. And the key thing is nothing to do with corruption or compliance or any of those issues. It's just that if I'm going to have things that are on public bidding, it's likely to be big, and I don't want it to fail.
and I'm going to give it to someone I trust. And who do I trust? I mean, my existing vendors are the ones that I can trust. And if it's a big vendor, that means I trust them a lot. So if they are able to do it, I'm going to give it to them. If they're not able to do it, I'm going to look into the smaller vendors and see who else I can give
give this a bigger thing to them yeah yeah i think the idea of the lower lower hang fruit is very valuable in the sense that that could be your foot in the door right yes that's that's where you're not making the stakes so high where people really have to think you know they would have an easier time accepting that and trying that out first on a trial basis yes well i guess to to to wrap it up like
You have this book, Winning the B2B Sale in China. You do a lot of talks, you coach. What would be kind of, I guess, the main thing to learn or to get across to any listeners? - Well, I would say it depends. This book was written for the perspective of foreign companies in China. Come here with your eyes open, with your ears open and listen to your customers, listen to the market.
If whatever you're doing works in this market, use it. If it's not working, are you then willing to make adjustments, adapt and find out a way that it's going to work well in this market? I think being able to adapt is also a very overlooked skill. We're so used to being in our bubbles.
I mean, just for me personally, I think I've had to adapt to so many things and it hasn't always been easy for me and it hasn't always been clear and obvious until sometimes it's almost too late and then you're trying to make up ground afterwards. One of the things that I found was, especially from the perspective of an expat manager in China,
is because of language barriers and all that, sometimes the expat managers tend to mix around only with better English speakers amongst their colleagues, who may or may not have the best intentions. Some are great. Some others are just trying to be friendly with the manager so that they can get whatever you need. And as an expat manager, it's just more of a conscious effort
to go out there and reach out to people that you don't understand what they're saying, they don't really understand what they're saying, but find a way to communicate. I have also seen many cases where capable Chinese employees are passed over for promotions, primarily because they could not present fluently or in a nice way in English.
Yeah, it's the idea of familiarity and comfort zones. Yes. And it's not just the idea of breaking out of comfort zones in terms of, oh, I don't like to run, but I'll start running. I mean, it's even harder than that in terms of a lot of language barriers and cultural barriers. And for me, as kind of like the ABC type, I come here and I do have to make more of an effort, like a conscious effort to
to socialize with people who aren't other ABCs like me, right? Or Westerners who can speak my language and get my references and get the jokes that we share. - Exactly. - Because you feel so comfortable in that. And to leave that bubble is so jarring sometimes, like so uncomfortable and awkward that I limit myself by doing that greatly. And like you said, I feel like I can totally see that for a lot of expat managers
I think a lot of the people who can speak my English better and relate to them better and communicate with them better are probably much more prioritized in getting jobs or getting promoted and things like that. Meanwhile, they might not be as competent. Yes, exactly. Because we talk about psychology so much on this show and human interaction. And really, that's really what it boils down to.
especially in the business world, especially in our personal interactions, and it's all connected. Yes, it is. It is. Because ultimately, I think what you mentioned way earlier in our talk today is, you know, sales is a form of communication, right? And whether you're working or studying, as long as you're dealing with a live human being, you're communicating.
Right. So, and the quality, if we want to really quote Anthony Robbins, something that he got it spot on is that the quality of the communication determines the quality of your life. Quality of the communication determines the quality of your life.
Wow. Yeah, that's deep. Yeah, that's deep. For all that fast food kind of motivational talks that he did, this is one quarter that I found that's really, really deep. That's really soul-searching in that sense. Because
On the surface, the communication is like, no, if I'm hungry, I just need to order food. If I need to go somewhere, I tell my DD driver and so on. So that's just one level of communication. But communication can go very much deep down. And if you have very profound and deep communication with the people that matters to you a lot—
it's very much likely that it's going to determine the quality of your life. That is so true. If you have high quality communication with those around you, then it makes everything so much easier. Yes. And it won't always work out all the time, but it will make everything so much better for you. And we can just look at, you know, even in our personal relationships, this is something...
I'm sometimes, I don't want to sound like I'm on my high horse here, but I sometimes get surprised or shocked by some of the difficulties other couples have to go through. Right. When to me, I feel like, hey, simple and clear communication could have resolved that really easily. Sure. It didn't have to come to this. Yeah, sure. If you had just communicated. Yeah. And things as simple as that, I'm always surprised about...
to see so many people not communicating or not communicating well or choosing not to communicate well sometimes. It's really a choice. - Oh yeah, I mean, communication takes effort, takes energy. And now if it's a verbal communication, we talk and we listen. Guess what? It's more tiring to listen than to talk. It's a lot more time. We did a lot of exercises now in our workshops
10 out of 10. I mean, people who are playing the roles of listening, but if you really are attentive in the listening world,
That is really energy draining. It takes a lot of energy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's something on this podcast. I know. Like, I love listening, but you have to be really focused. Yes. Yes. Exactly. But it wasn't a problem focusing talking to you at all, CJ. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I think, again, what you do is very fascinating. There's a lot of deeper layers to this. And yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you. My pleasure. Yeah.
Yeah. If you want to pick it up, where can people find you? Oh, they can find me on LinkedIn. The book is on Amazon. It's print on demand and it's on Kindle. It's on Kindle and Amazon. It's available now? It's available now. Okay. Winning the B2B sale in China. Yes. It seems like it would be a quick read, which is great. It's a quick read. Yeah. Okay. Great. All right, everybody. All right. That's all we have. Thank you again, CJ. Thank you. My pleasure.
I'm Justin. That was CJ. This is The Honest Drink. All right, everybody. Be good. Be well. Peace. The right to the side will see my pride. We're loving what she wants. I'm the man I'm about.