Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
What is up, everybody? Welcome to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying this podcast, you know what to do. Go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. All right, where do I begin?
My guest today is best described as someone who truly goes after the things they want out of life. No excuses, no self-pity, but someone who really lives not as a passenger, but as the driver of his own journey. Before he even turned 30, he had already accomplished a career in politics, going as far as becoming vice mayor of a city in Arizona. Since then, he owns and helps run multiple companies in various industries, and he's
and is also a full-time lawyer, becoming one of the youngest partners at his law firm and constantly finding opportunities to help people. Somehow, he always finds the time to pursue his passions in life, and the list of his accomplishments are constantly growing.
Now, this episode is special in that we're catching him at a moment where he happens to be doing a lot of personal house cleaning on life and what it means to live a good one. This is because of the very recent passing of his greatest mentor, friend, his grandfather. You're going to hear in this conversation that he's still in a state of mourning, but also in one of those rare moments of profound and clear reflection on what's truly important in creating a life well-lived.
His grandfather was an extremely influential person with a deep wisdom on life, and I was personally lucky enough to have crossed paths with this man a few times. And it's really through his lessons and principles that have helped my guest be the person he is today. So in this episode, we talk about a lot of things through the context of the life of my guest and his relationship with his grandfather. But it all really boils down to life,
death, building virtues, carpe diem, being authentic, being present, taking control, and the endless pursuit of living a high quality life. This conversation was originally just going to be a private phone call. It wasn't going to be on the show, but with his blessing, we decided to record it and share this moment on the podcast.
Every time I talk to this guy, I feel somehow I've regained focus in my life. I hope you guys get something out of this too. So without further ado, please give it up for one of my oldest and closest friends, Adam Trank.
So you're in Oklahoma right now, right? Yeah.
There's no mandates here right now. It's a free country in Oklahoma. I caught COVID at a time when I was wearing a mask everywhere I went in public, so none of that works. I don't mean to laugh at you catching COVID. When was that? How long ago was that? Just a year ago now. It was last October. And what were your symptoms like?
I had mild flu-like symptoms, and I was very tired. More tired than I can remember being with any cold or flu that I'd ever had. But the most distinctive part of it was I've completely lost my sense of smell and taste. And my sense of smell has returned, but it is much less sensitive than it used to be, and it is different. Like...
It sounds weird, but like peanut butter and bananas and things that like you would think you would recognize the smell of. Yeah. Smell very different than I remember smelling pre-COVID. So what does peanut butter smell like to you now? Like.
burnt, like something burned. Really? So it's not even enjoyable anymore? Well, as enjoyable. I'm trying to train myself to get it back because I love to eat peanut butter, but it's not what it used to be. I used to eat a jar of peanut butter a week and now they last much longer. Let's start off by, I guess, giving people a little bit of context of, I guess, our relationship first.
And I want to say you're one of my best and oldest friends. I mean, that goes without saying, you know that. We've known each other since third grade, second grade? Second grade. Second grade, right? Yep. And we met, well, if you want to call it a meeting, but yeah, we technically met on a school bus and you were my bully.
I was your bully. You were my first bully I ever had. Unintentional. I was more, I think, just being territorial because we met, as you put it, at second grade, first day of school, getting on the bus of second grade. And I had gotten on that bus at that bus stop every day through kindergarten and first grade and walked and sat in the fourth seat on the right behind the driver.
And on this day, going into second grade, I go to sit in my seat and lo and behold, there's little Justin Yang seated in my spot. And I think I've probably made you move. I believe you did. I believe you did. It was like my first day in school. Welcome to America. Get out of my seat. Yeah, exactly. Welcome to the land of the free. Now get the fuck out of my seat.
But we've stayed the closest of friends since. And I think through middle school, I probably spent more time with you than anybody else just by virtue of the fact how close we lived together. Last time you came out here, you visited me out in Shanghai. And then it was like we kind of realized how different our lives were, had become, I guess. And you're always someone that I've always held very high respect for. I mean, not only just as...
as a friend of mine, but, you know, as like the person you become, like your professional life and the kind of integrity and I feel like life principles you hold. Again, my condolences, you know, for the recent passing of your grandfather, Al. I know that's still pretty raw, but, you know, last time we spoke on the phone was, you know, right after he had passed and you had told me the news. And, you know,
you were writing the eulogy and I read your eulogy and there was so much in there that I, for lack of a better word, that I envied about your relationship with him. And there's so much I want to learn secondhand through you about the kind of life lessons and principles that he either directly or indirectly taught.
passed on and influenced you in. Maybe kind of highlight a little bit about the kind of relationship you had with your grandfather, if that's not too personal. No, it's not too personal. He and I were remarkably close. I mean, you know as well as anybody that my childhood was
was for being financially very comfortable growing up in the suburbs of New Jersey. I imagine it being...
relative to others. And certainly as I observed it, of course, you never know what's going on inside anybody else's homes, but it was traumatic and difficult for me. You know, and I've heard other people say, like Joe Rogan says on his podcast, you know, the most difficult thing somebody's ever experienced is the most difficult thing they've ever experienced. And that's their reality. But at eight years old, my parents divorced and
which candidly, I didn't see coming at that age. And you hear stories of people talking about their parents getting divorced and it's like, Oh, it was like a relief when it happened because the home was contentious and it wasn't a happy place to be. And, you know, just wanted the separation between your parents were always fighting. I have no recollection of that. Well, you were, you were so young too. I was eight, even eight years old, but like, but living in a happy home at that time. And then, um,
Uh, I, that really shook me up. It felt like an earthquake had destroyed my house basically to use a euphemism. And, um, around that time, my relationships with both of my grandfathers became, uh, very important. They, they sort of stepped up and I don't think it was through any fault of my father's. I think it's probably a mutual thing between both my parents and circumstances.
But I wasn't seeing a lot of him. And sadly, my mother's father passed away just two years later. So that was then very difficult as well. Because again, your world just rocked. And when you're eight years old going to 10 years old, especially looking back, it was like one thing happened right after the other. So that two-year gap, I was just starting to feel like a happy kid again. And then he died.
And you probably remember that because we were in sleepaway camp together and I left camp early. And I think you were upset about that for quite a while. Yeah. Yeah. I felt abandoned. Yes, I know. I'm sorry. Um,
So that happened. And then, you know, I became a disciplinary problem for my mother and for the school that I was in. And yeah, I was a little bit of a derelict. I think I was just acting out on whatever those traumas were. And at around that stage, when I was in sixth grade, my father's father really became the central figure in my life. And give me just a second.
Oh man, take your time, bro. I know it's still raw. Yeah. Um, yeah. So he just became the central character. He, um, was there accessible and, um, that's a tremendous, uh, I guess it's symptomatic of who he was as a person that he stepped into that role at that time, despite,
everything else going on and what was then a man in his mid-60s who had a big career and businesses and a wife and other grandchildren and children and everything else for him to step up that way. And he did. And what's really interesting about that, and I'm going to fast forward 30 years, I didn't realize until his passing just a few weeks ago that
That was not unusual for him to show up for the people in his life and to give of himself in ways that, frankly, you just don't see. You know, to be all in, you know, and to focus and be present in the moment.
all the time when it's necessary, uh, is it's a rare thing. And this is a guy who certainly he did that for me as his grandson, but he did it for everybody that he encountered. He had, uh, he had a way about him and he had, he took a genuine interest in people. He used that or leveraged that interest, which has been a, maybe a unique attribute of his own to enrich his own life. I'll rewind now back to, uh, you know, sixth, seventh grade, uh,
I was having a difficult time. I got thrown out of public school, up into private school, Newark Academy for two years, thrown out of there. Yeah.
And, you know, I was miserable for the two years that I was going to Newark Academy. I didn't have any friends. I didn't feel like I fit in with that group of kids. And he recognized that. So I would get on a bus, ride 40 something minutes to school in this, you know, little bus that would pull up in a circle in front of the school. And, you know, within a couple of weeks, obviously he became aware of how difficult the time I was having. He was there.
He met you at the school when you got off the bus? Yep. Yeah. Almost every fucking day for two years of school. I mean, that's just crazy. Think about it. So anyway, that's just one anecdote of the things that he did to, I guess...
helped me get through what I was going through. And then eighth grade, uh, I got to go back to public school cause I got thrown out of Newark Academy. And, um, I guess whatever happened, the school administrators at the public school decided to let me back in. I went back to Valley view, which was the public school in Wachung. And,
He stayed a central figure, you know, showed up to basketball games when I played in the middle school basketball team, science fair, you know, the things that your parents would come to. He showed up. It was sometime during the eighth grade, near the end of the year. My father actually broke the news to me that my grandmother, his wife, had lung cancer. And I remember thinking, I remember vividly wondering how that was going to affect him.
my grandfather, right? And not that because I wasn't close to my grandmother and wasn't worried about her health or her wellbeing, but it struck me how close we were that that was my first instinct was to worry about, boy, he's going to have a hard time with that. And I think it was maybe one of the first times in my life where I really worried about somebody else. So that has stuck with me.
So let's touch a little bit on his career, his influence to the city of New York, and
kind of just the hall of famer that he was. What's truly remarkable about him was his trajectory in life. This is a kid who he was born to a family of Jewish immigrants that ran a poultry farm in Bradley Beach, New Jersey, and had a chicken market in Newark, New Jersey. I would say around the time his older brother was shipped off to fight World War II, he
you know, did what a lot of kids at those times in those areas of the country probably did. And, and, you know, lived on a little bit on both sides of the law, um, was a little bit of a derelict himself in a different way than I was when I was a kid. And when I was in trouble, I mean, he was on the street,
And, um, he ended up with my grandmother, whose, uh, father was a, uh, the head of a union, the retail clerks union in New Jersey and tied to the Jewish mob, uh, which was tied to the Italian mob. And, you know, ultimately, I guess all the way up to the Kennedys, we now know if you open up a history book, but, uh, he, you know, started out.
uh, life that way. You know, he didn't go to college fresh out of high school. He ended up in the air force. You know, he, he got married to my grandmother, started a family and went into the insurance business working for a guy named Louis Saperstein, who, you know, just to, uh,
demonstrate the ties and how close he was living to, you know, to the edge and how potentially his life could have gone badly. Um, Louie was, he was murdered. Um, so that was his first job was selling insurance for, for Louie Saperstein and murdered by the mob for debts. He, uh,
Clearly made a choice not to end up in that life and went legit with the insurance business and built a book of business and rolled it up and sold it.
And that was sometime in the seventies. Uh, and he sold it to a guy named Mishulam Rickless, who was an Israeli guy who made it onto the Forbes billionaire list at some point in time. Um, I never met that guy, but I've heard a lot of stories. His relationship with Rickless deteriorated before I was born. And my grandfather ultimately went to work for him and managed a Shenandoah downs and Charlestown racetrack in West Virginia. Um, and, uh,
I think he had a lot of fun doing that. He used to commute in a small plane from New Jersey to West Virginia for work every day. That he flew himself? Because he was a pilot, right? Yeah, he was in the Air Force out of high school during the Korean War. Never saw any action, but was on a base down in Mississippi. This is another great story.
He wanted to get out of the service desperately because he had just married my grandmother. And obviously nobody wanted to go fight Korea. And he, you know, he was there and I don't have all the details of the story. I think one of my cousins has an interview with him recorded that one day I should share with you. But the short version is he had his, he had a suit.
that was tailored to look like a military uniform, but it was like a really sharp looking military uniform. Like it wasn't the one that they just pull out of the box and give you when you, you know, enlist. And he ended up trading that for an honorable discharge to whatever major or general, because the guy liked the suit so well. He said, I'll tell you what, you could have it. You just got to sign these release papers.
You got to put yourself in, you know, 1950s New Jersey. You know, he wanted a sharp looking suit. He was in the military, so he made it look like a military suit. So were you, but you weren't allowed to do that, right? But he just, he just said, fuck it. I'm going to do it anyway. I'm sure you weren't allowed to do that, but that never stopped him from doing anything, you know? Yeah. Okay. So anyway, that's how he got out of the service. Then in the insurance business, working for Louis Saperstein, he,
That guy gets killed. You know, life goes on. You know, sometime in the 70s, goes working at these racetracks. And then he had a big falling out with that guy, Rickless. They had made a verbal arrangement for how he would be compensated upon their exit from that industry, as the story goes. And my grandfather, you know, they closed the deal. He goes into his office and he's looking to get paid. And Rickless says, show me where it says I have to give you that money.
And my grandfather says, you made a deal. What do you mean show you? He said, doesn't say that anywhere in writing. And my grandfather told him to go fuck himself. And he had to reinvent himself at that point. And, you know, was reading the paper one day and saw that the West 30th Street teleport in Manhattan was up for bids, you know, for a public contract for somebody to operate that on behalf of the city. And he won the bid.
Uh, he had operated it up until the day that he, you know, fell sick and ultimately died. Uh, but in that time he did things to, you know, transform the transportation landscape in New York city. Uh, he gave a leg up to this company blade, which is now very popular, uh, sort of like the Uber for helicopters, um, as a reference point. And, uh, he was very influential there and he, you know, he, he,
gave of himself to, I think, in the beginning to politicians and people around because he wanted to curry influence. I believe that that would have been the initial motivation. And then I think as he got older, I think he began to take a real interest in politics because he wanted to make a positive difference on his country and in the neighborhoods that he lived in.
And, you know, he's he was ultimately very close with Senator Frank Lautenberg and his successor, Cory Booker. Cory actually wrote a eulogy for my grandfather that was read at the synagogue on his on on the day we buried him. And he maintained friendships and made friendships everywhere he went.
And I think that's his greatest gift to, to, that he left with us sometime about 10 years ago, he was in Africa. He had went on a trip to Africa and he met a man who he took a liking to, who had several missing teeth. And, you know, this guy was, you know, worked at the hotel or the resort or something. I don't know. He was, you know, part of the safari trip. And, uh, my grandfather took
took him aside and made arrangements to send him to get a whole mouthful of dental implants to change his life and to improve his life. Now, you know, this is the kind of who thinks to do things like that to a perfect stranger, but you know, he's paid it. He believed in paying it forward and improving people's conditions. And he was always encouraging me to give back, if not with my time, then with my money to good causes. And, you know, he, he,
He lived that. It wasn't just lip service. He showed by example. Yeah, it's powerful. It's powerful in this day and age where it seems like people don't have time for anything. Everyone's on the move. Everyone's hustling, doing whatever. And it just seems like no one ever even has, even friends, don't seem to really...
Take the time to really engage. And you talk about nobody has time for anything because of all the distractions of the modern day. My grandfather had a saying that I can hear him saying in my head, don't sweat the small shit. And it's all small shit.
So, you know, text message, email, phone call, whatever. Be present in the moment. Don't worry about it. Do what you have to do now. That shit will be there later. It's kind of one of the ways that you can interpret that expression. And he surely lived by that. And he never really got worked up about anything. It seemed like he had a really optimistic view on life and that life is ultimately good. But he wasn't naive about it, right? Like he knew the dark side.
the dark places and the shadows and the shadowy corners around, you know, lifespan. But like he didn't, I feel like he didn't let that ruin his overall view on life. He really did have the philosophy. Life is good. You, when you would call him, ask him how he was doing every day, it was never better. Um, he had a tremendously positive outlook on life and, you know, shit happens. But what does that mean? We shouldn't enjoy what we've got.
I want to kind of switch the angle a little bit here, how you live your life and how you go about dealing with shit in your day and in your personal life and your outlook.
I aspire to be as even keeled as he was, but I'm 38 and I didn't beat him until he was in his 60s. So maybe by the time I get there, I will be. My philosophy is sort of like carpe diem, seize the day. And I certainly, through his example, if not through his words, have taken that approach to everything I've done in my life. If I see something I want to do, I just do it.
When I was 25 years old, I was in law school. I decided to run for the city council.
it was against all odds. I mean, here's a, you know, a kid from New Jersey living, you know, a carpetbagger in the Southwest and some rural town, you know, and I'm going to run for the city council and they wanted to kill me down there literally. And, uh, yeah. And I just went for it, you know? Um, you know, I went down there to upset the apple cart. I went sat in on a couple of city council meetings and saw what they were doing and said like,
this shit isn't that hard. And these people are stupid. I can do this, you know, let's protect my investment. I just bought a house in that town and decided to get involved. But, um, yeah, he was encouraging and, um, I've taken a lot of that with me. I mean, I, I've told stories about how I, how I got into law school and then how I got out of law school by just kind of having, I don't know what the right word is for it without being too crass, but, uh,
chutzpah, I guess. When I got out of college, I applied to ASU and Seton Hall for the two law schools. And...
I got my acceptance letter to Seton Hall Law School, but I didn't want to stay in New Jersey. So I wanted to go back to Arizona where I went to undergrad. So I assumed that if I got into Seton Hall, certainly I must have gotten into ASU, my alma mater, right? So I quit my job and packed up, went back to Arizona and anxiously awaited my acceptance letter only to get a rejection letter. Well...
If I wasn't my grandfather's son, I don't think I would have had the balls to do this, but I called and I wanted to speak to the Dean. Like, how dare you not accept me into your law school? You know? And, uh,
Making a long story short, she wouldn't see me. So I'm later, I'm about a month later, made an appointment under a different name to go see her under the pretense that I was going to give a donation to the law school because April 15th was coming up tax time. And I show up, this is kind of crazy, but hilarious. The same suit I wore to my grandfather's funeral, which was a suit that he bought for me when I turned 21 at, um,
I had Barney's in New York, a Hugo Boss pinstripe suit with sharp lapels. I mean, just a gangster suit, like right off The Sopranos. And I show up to the deeds office at a college in Arizona, at the law college, dressed in this suit because it's the only suit I had, based on a false pretense that I'm there to give a donation to confront her about not letting me into the law school. Her name is Patricia White, ultimately a great lady.
And help me out. But the first thing she said to me is, who are you really? And why are you here? So she saw right through it. So again, walk me through this meeting, walk me through this meeting. So you go into her office.
She said, who are you really? And why are you here? And I remember like, like right off the bat, right off the bat. I mean, I didn't even get to say anything. Like I stepped into her office and she just, so she might've must've looked you up or look the name up that you, that you gave. And it's like, I don't know. Just, I don't even remember the name I gave it. It's just, she called bullshit immediately. Okay. And I said, well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't throw me out. Let me just, let me have a minute. I'm here. Let me have a minute. You know? Okay. What is it?
I said, I tried to get a meeting with you because I got rejected from the law school. And I said, but I got accepted to Seton Hall, which is ranked, you know, they rank law school. This was just ranked as a better school than ASU. I went to ASU, my LSAT score and my GPA are right there on the average of the published averages for what you let into your law school. Help me understand why I didn't get in here. Like I want to, I want to be here.
And, uh, I'm not going to repeat exactly what she said, cause I don't want to get anybody in trouble. We're living in far too sensitive times with political correctness, but, uh, she encouraged me to, to bring up my GPA to which I responded. I graduated college almost a year ago. How in the hell am I going to bring up my GPA? You know what I mean? I don't have that opportunity. She said, well, I look and,
I got to rewind a second. She did go pull my file from admissions because this was 2005, 2006. It wasn't all digital. They had like a paper file for me. So she went downstairs. She came back up. She got my file. She looked at it. She said, I see you like real estate. I said, yeah, you've been working in real estate for this past year. I said, yeah. She said, um,
If you want to bring up your GPA, I can probably help you get admitted to the Masters of Real Estate Development program. And if you get good grades there, you can reapply to the law school and you'll probably get it. So she helped me get into that program. And I got a master's degree before I went to law school because of her. And I haven't been in touch with her for many years, but she kept track of me as I went through law school. And she was...
super lady and ultimately had a pretty good sense of humor about me, you know, sneaking my way into her office. And there's a couple more stories like that of how I got through the master's program and then how I got out, managed to graduate law school. And I think that that
I won't bore you with those stories now unless you want to hear them. No, they're really fascinating stories to me. Because you never told me this. These, like, as close as we are, these are moments in your life, you know, that we were not together for. But do they surprise you? They don't surprise me one bit, but it's fucking interesting to listen to. So, like, so...
You put it away. Chutzpah? Is that how you say it? Yeah. It's a Yiddish word for balls. I don't think the literal translation is balls, but the meaning of it is like, you know, you got guts. Like, you take a chance. Yeah. Like, not afraid to offend somebody. You're going to go for it. You're going to control your own fate in life. And, God, I mean, and that just goes into line with everything that I know about you as a person.
And I think that is one of the, I mean, I've never been able to really articulate it, but I think that's one of the things I've almost envied about you is,
Was that you really marched to the beat of your own drum? Well, I think it's a little bit of nature and a little bit of nurture, but I don't have any doubt that both the nature and the nurture come directly from my grandfather, that that's who I am and how I operate. His influence, without it, I'd still be some chubby little kid sitting on the bench waiting to get put into a basketball game. Yeah, some pissed off chubby little kid. Yeah. Yeah.
it's because it's really two different Adams, you know, like the, the Adam I knew growing up was just miserable, pissed off kid. I mean, we had our fun moments when we were together, but I feel like, like outwardly you were to anybody else. I feel like they would just see you as a very miserable kid. Yeah. It was sad. I mean, like I said, at the beginning of our discussion, um,
I'm not, not woe is me, but those were formative experiences, losing my grandfather right after my parents' divorce, my mother's father, then getting in trouble because I was obviously upset, then that resulting in being taken away from my friends, put in private school, and then having one decent year until my father's mother got sick and died. And then my mother's mother passed away within the same month as my father's mother.
Um, those things were all very disruptive and it wasn't really until, you know, towards the end of high school that I was able to like sit back and detach from those experiences and let those, you know, let those experiences not define who I was. Um, and my grandfather certainly helped me with that. And, uh, my dad, uh, helped me get a, a,
I guess, an apprenticeship with a horse trainer in Idaho in high school because horses were always something that interested me. And I think working on that ranch in the summers gave me a tremendous amount of confidence and a work ethic that my grandfather, I know, desperately wanted me to have a work ethic. I remember him talking to me about it when I was in high school, but he was unable to impress upon me why it was important. Some things you can't
tell somebody you have to show them and so when i went to to montana in those summers um i don't know i figured it out and so um how do you think you figured it out uh a guy named zane davis made me pick rocks and pull weeds all day long for oversleeping my alarm and i realized that those are terrible consequences for your actions what was what was what time was your alarm set to
like five 30 in the morning. And I'm 15 years old, you know, like you definitely sleep through that. It was like bootcamp or something. Yeah. And on the third day, Zane tells a story better than I would, but on the third day I was sitting on the couch at the bottom of the stairs, ready and waiting, but as he came down the stairs to go start catching horses, it's like not pulling weeds today, but it just didn't sleep waiting for that alarm to go off. Um,
But I learned a lot working for him. I learned a lot being around horses. I learned patience, which, you know, I don't think is something that children have naturally. I mean, certainly some kids are more patient than others, but I was not a patient child. I learned that...
you know working on the ranch and dealing with you know horses that are you know untrained or green that you have to take things slow yeah i've learned from it and i look back on that i wish i had i wish i was happier in my youth but i also don't think that i would be uh have the same like zest for life that i have now if i had been right because i think a lot of people like maybe they they use all their chips at that stage of their life having fun and being you know
footloose and fancy free. And, you know, I'm playing as an adult now. Correct me if I'm wrong, Zane is also one of your mentors in life? Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, I feel like I lack mentorship. And that's something, that's a topic I'm really fascinated about because everywhere you go, you hear the importance of having mentors in your life to learn from. You know, almost every successful person I've spoken to talks about the, you
the utility and power of having good mentors in your life. And I want to see, hear from you, like, have you ever reflected on that yourself? Like objectively?
in terms of, wow, like how, how much influence the mentors around you have? Well, I think that without having spent those summers in Montana and then some of the summers were in Idaho, as they moved around a little bit, um, I would be in prison, you know, I was on a bad path and I think that's what, you know, sort of set me straight. Um,
Just not being around some of the negative influences in New Jersey through the summer when you're not in school, the old idle minds are devil's playground thing. So I was both physically and mentally removed from that environment and put in a very positive place to learn life skills. But without a doubt, I have reflected on it in my
I'm tremendously grateful for my grandfather's influence, for Zane's influence, and for the friendship through the years that they have both provided for me. But in terms of finding a mentor, if you're open to it and you see something in somebody that you're naturally...
attracted to, for lack of a better way to describe it, not physically or sexually attracted, but you're drawn to somebody because what they're doing is interesting. If you take a genuine interest in what they're doing and you're honest about even wanting to get something from the relationship, I think people appreciate that. I think in today's day and age, a lot of people are full of shit and they try
try to manipulate a situation to gain an edge over somebody. I don't do that. I don't see any benefit to that. I'm very forthright. You know, if somebody's a future competitor, but you want to learn something from me, tell them, look, I really envy what you do. I'd love to learn from it. You know, we could be friendly competitors, you know, that flatters people.
You know, if you eventually the deception breaks down and then they just end up angry and they're no longer your friend, you know, you've, you've, you've destroyed the trust. Um, and I think I spoke about loyalty, obviously trust as a, as a, as a main component of loyalty, you can't be loyal to somebody that you don't trust and no one's going to be loyal to you if they don't trust you. Um, so you just, I, I,
you know, sometimes I think I probably share too much about what I'm thinking and how I feel with people. You know, I kind of wear my heart on my sleeve a little bit, but I think that
ultimately that's helped me get to where I'm going. And I also, you know, you carry the weight of your emotions through life and whatever you're going through, but talking about it helps. And I think that also allows you to be present in the moment. Like I'm not, you know, you have an issue at home or you have, you know, without getting into details and throwing anybody under the bus, you call one of your friends and you just get it off your chest. People appreciate that honesty. Number one, they,
If they're your friend, they want to hear from you. And two, everybody's struggling. Everybody has shit that they're dealing with. It's cathartic to get it off of your chest, but it's just as cathartic for a friend, somebody who has the time is interested in listening to hear it because it helps them know that whatever they're going through, they're not going through it alone. Even if they're not comfortable sharing it with you.
That builds relationships and builds trust also. What you're saying completely resonates with me, right? Like kind of wear your heart on your sleeve, be forthright and just open and honest with what you're trying to get if you are trying to get something out of a relationship.
Have that respect for at least being honest enough to say it up front. And just like, you know, everyone have their cards on a table and then, okay, we know where to go from here and we can work. And then there's a mutual trust and respect that's built with that over time and a foundation. But maybe I've made the mistake in my life of conflating that with just being very blunt about
and very frank with people. And us growing up in Jersey, that's how we all were. Like, you know, with each other and our friends, like, we ripped on each other all the time. There was no mincing words. And we said how we felt, like, period. And it wasn't until I had moved out to California, you know, being a Jersey boy. And then, and I've said this on the podcast several times, when I moved out to California, I brought that same attitude. Um,
two kids in California. And what I found out really quickly was- Is they think you're an asshole. They thought I was an asshole. Exactly. They thought I was an asshole. And that completely blew my mind because in our friend dynamic back in Jersey, I was not the asshole guy. They thought I was just super alpha, super aggressive, and just being a jerk. And in my mind,
I was just trying to be really friendly, right? But the more friendly and the more close I felt with someone, the more blunt and honest I felt I should be with that person. And it was perceived completely in a different way than I had intended. And that kind of tempered my, because I spent so much time out in California, that kind of really tempered
my ability, I feel, or my willingness, not my ability, but my willingness to be always so blunt and forthright with everybody right up front, right out the gates. And I had to be like, okay, well, I had to maybe tread a little carefully here and be a little careful with my choice of words and all these things to second think what I am saying.
Does that experience resonate with you at all? Has that ever affected you at all? Absolutely. But before I answer your question, it's my turn. I want to ask you a question. How is it in China?
Like you got New Jersey, you got California. I know I, I, I relate to both of those scenarios and I know exactly what you're talking about culturally. When I was in China, I really just spent the time with you and I don't speak Chinese. So it's hard for me to say, but what's the culture in China? Like, what's it, what's going on in Shanghai? Like, how do you relate to people? Do you have to sort of like mellow your tone and beat around the bush or do you just like straight out and say it? Like, what do they want to hear out there? Okay. Great question. Um, I feel like
It's separate. So there's the business communications in China and the business culture of building relationships business-wise. And then there's like personal.
and familial relationships. And I think in China, for familial relationships, people are super blunt with each other. I don't think, obviously I'm generalizing, but for the most part, I feel like parents and your closest friends are going to be super brutally honest with you, tell you exactly how it is. They're not going to sweeten, they're not going to sugarcoat anything generally.
But I feel in business relationships in Chinese culture, you have to kind of talk in a circle. And you kind of do have to be around the bush. Romance them a little bit. Romance them. Well, not romance them, but you can't be so direct. Like A to B, this is exactly what I want. I've made this mistake before, obviously. I've done business here and I've worked here.
And I've made the mistake before of sitting in some meetings with some factory bosses and, you know, we're talking about price and production and,
And me coming with my American mindset, I'm like, okay, I don't want to waste anybody's time. I'm sure they don't want to be here a second longer than they want to be. So I'm just going to get right to it, get right to the chase. This is the price I needed at. This is my bottom line. This is what we need. Boom, one, two, three, bing, bam, done, right? And I realized that that approach wasn't getting me anywhere, right?
Because people don't want to be just like, boom, right? They want to be, they want to try to at least feel that you're trying to create a relationship with them first.
And they want to know that I can build this business relationship with you, or at least that you're trying to build it with me and what your vibe is. And then we'll get to the nitty gritty instead of just diving head first. If it's genuine, that's very healthy, right? But if that's a facade of its own, then it's a lot of bullshit. But if it really, and maybe it stems from something that used to be genuine in today's fast-paced world, it feels fake.
fake. I don't know. I'm just surmising, but that sounds like a very healthy way to do business, to get to know the dynamics of the people in the room before you start, you know, getting down to brass tacks. I think there's an opportunity in that, that cultural dynamic for you to build strong relationships and find the mentors that you sounds like you're looking for. If you were to approach those interactions with,
sort of with like a completely open mind and being totally honest and authentic in them. To be brutally honest, I've done a terrible job of doing that so far with my time in China. You impatient fuck. But it's also, it's also, you know me, I'm like more reclusive, right? I'm more like introverted. So it's like,
It's draining on me to try to build relationships. Even when I want to build relationships, it's draining. And I think that's why when I look at you, my eyes widen up and I'm like, oh man, I feel like you're doing it so well and
You have this gift and this art and skill to building relationships and building friends and having mentors. But I'd be lying to you if I didn't, you know, say that there's many, many occasions in my life, particularly early in my career when I would go to a lot of networking events and hand out business cards and trying to, you know, just get my practice rolling at the law firm. And also when I was in city council and went to neighborhood events to, you know,
glad hand people and whatnot. Um, where I literally like, I don't know if you've obviously we saw Pulp Fiction in the theaters together when we were 12. So, uh, the scene at the beginning of the movie, when they're about to go in to get the briefcase and they, you know, they like take a breather and they're like, all right, let's get into character. And then they go into the, you know, they get to go to the room and shoot them up. Um, like I have to be like, okay, take a deep breath. All right, let's get into character. Like,
go in there and, you know, not necessarily put on a show, but like mentally prime myself for what can be a draining experience, particularly you're not in the mood, you know, you just worked all day and, you know, you got to be, in my case, horses to feed at home. And I was at the time I was newly married and, you know, I had a wife I wanted to go see and what, you know, so, but you got to do it. And, um, you have to like put yourself into that mindset of like, all right, let's, this is what we're here for. So let's, let's make the most of it kind of thing.
Um, yeah, it's not always easy, but you develop that skill and it gets easier. And like, you know, I have, I have a buddy in Arizona who's very politically active still, uh, who I met when I was going through my campaigns and whatnot. We're very close friends. Great guy. Um, but he invites me to all these events and I'm at the phase in my life where it's just like, uh, he's all probably hear this podcast. Sorry, bro. You know who you are. I'm not going to say my name, you know, but he invites me to all these events and like, I cringe.
at the thought of like, I'm letting him down that this is a buddy of mine. He wants me there. Sometimes I go, sometimes I don't go. Sometimes I'm genuinely busy. Sometimes I just happen to be busy. Yeah. Exactly. Um, but when I do go, you know, sometimes you just put on a brave face. You're there. You show up for your friends. You show up for your people. Um, you want to support them and you've got to get into character to go into those rooms and shake hands. And you know what, if you take the right approach, you'll make,
good friends in those situations. I mean, I can't tell you how many of my law clients that I met at the start of my career, you know, that I'm friendly with now and who've referred me business and who I've helped them be successful in the things that they do. And like, those are meaningful relationships that I have cultivated, um,
In the same vein as my grandfather moved through his life. And I think if you're aware of it, that's a good first step to doing it. If everything you're doing is rote and you're just sort of passing through life as a passenger, then you're not actively taking an interest in those people.
And sometimes you don't want to, but do it because there's a payoff there. And you can, you know, you read the room obviously, but sometimes you might meet somebody for the very first time at a political fundraiser or, you know, some event and say, you know, you know,
I don't know if you can relate to this, but I really don't want to be here. You know what I mean? And you say things like that, it breaks the ice. You're honest, right? If that's how you feel. And you immediately will develop a rapport with that person. Maybe you'll both happen to have a small bond over just that fact that you're both in that position. Well, I would have to imagine like, you know, this is not unique. This feeling is not unique to us. And
More times than not, they probably do relate to what you're feeling and probably feel the same way about being there at this event. And they're like, oh, instant connection, right? Yeah.
And that's what I was saying about like wearing your heart on your sleeve kind of thing. Like, just be honest with people, tell them how you feel now. So to get back to your question to me, going back to your question about, um, you know, being frank and being blunt versus being honest, you know, when you grow up in where we grew up in, you know, the New York city suburbs of New Jersey, we, uh, the culture there in the nineties is famously encapsulated by the Sopranos, but
people are assholes and you grow up in that culture and you think that that's normal and you don't really learn any social grace at all. Now, my grandfather, I do believe was an exception to that rule. But again, I don't know what he was like when he was in his thirties and forties, right? Or twenties. I can only imagine he became a gentleman and he carried himself through life with grace and dignity and was, was, uh, um,
very diplomatic in his interactions with people. Now he could be tough in business and he could, you know, certainly wouldn't hesitate to tell somebody to go fuck themselves if he had to. But, uh, he, you know, didn't swear in front of women and he was, he didn't, was never out to hurt somebody's feelings. Whereas like, as you describe it, when we were growing up, I mean, uh,
And that was sort of like a testament to how the strength of your bond with your friends was how badly you could hurt them verbally. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like how far you can push it without breaking your friendship. Right. And sometimes, by the way, physically, I think we were physically abusive to each other a little bit too. Yeah. Yeah.
But I have to filter, right? Like the way I interact with people on the East Coast, particularly my friends and family, is definitely different than how I carry myself in my personal and professional interactions in most of the rest of the country. Like I'm talking to you from Oklahoma. I'm a transplant here. I've been spending time here now for almost two years, not quite two years. Very different culture. The cadence of their speech and the way that they interact with each other is different. Now, I find that among men, there is that...
sort of manly thing from New Jersey of ball breaking that exists here in Oklahoma, more so even than in Arizona. And I think Arizona more so even than probably in LA based on how you describe it.
I think the South and the West, the farther you West, you get the softer and more sensitive people get about having their feelings hurt. This is just an observation. Don't tell you, you know, hopefully no one's offended by that, but nowadays people offended by everything. But I do think that you, you, you know,
Like I was saying, you show up at some sort of function and you find somebody that you're having a decent conversation with or you want to have a conversation with and you can tell the vibe is right. Yeah, be honest. I really don't want to be here right now. Or there's so many things I'd rather be doing, but it's good to see so-and-so. And try and deliver your truth, your authenticity, but do it...
You can be diplomatic about it without being offensive. And that's definitely a cultivated skill. Having grown up in New Jersey, I've had to temper that. It was a hard lesson for me to learn. And yeah, my first year in California, I gave a terrible impression to people there. Yeah, it's really funny. But really, it's about...
building a rich social life, the art of building friendships, like real true friendships is in many ways becoming more of a lost art. I feel like communication skills are maybe becoming lacking and interactions, physical interactions are becoming lacking, especially with the pandemic. And I just want to hear from you, like what does Adams take on the art of building friendship skills?
and your perspective on that. So you told me that that was sort of what you want to be the central theme of the podcast when we decided last week to do this tonight. And it's really interesting to me because obviously...
I'm surrounded by it in my life. I have, you know, as I don't know if you've seen me reach over and turn my phone off, but I've had four or five buddies of mine or colleagues from work who I consider friends call me since we've started an hour and a half ago. Um,
I've had zero, by the way. I've had zero. It's a different time of day there, though, to be fair, right? I mean, what time is it there anyway? It's 10, 10, 1030 a.m. Yeah, and no whiskey. No whiskey. Tea. I don't have anything to drink either. I'm a little disappointed because I thought about going to buy a bottle and getting a bag of ice. I'm here in my office. I don't have a refrigerator. And I completely forgot. I got busy with the day. Yeah, you fucked up. You fucked up. I blew it.
In terms of like friends. So definitely my grandfather led by example in this fast of his life. Everywhere we went, he knew somebody. He had a friend. He took me to somebody's house or we met somebody for dinner. He knew the maitre d' or he knew the bartender. He knew the doorman. He knew the...
car valet. He never looked down on anybody, never talked to anybody. It doesn't matter what walk of life you're from, what race you are, you know, if you have any physical ailments or disabilities or whatever, he treated everybody exactly the same. And he judged people, uh,
based on his interactions with them and his interaction with them alone. I think if he ever heard something bad about somebody, he took it with a grain of salt. If he didn't see it with his own eyes and experience it, he treated you, you were up here and it was up to you to bring yourself down. I think...
that I've learned from that example. And I engage people in conversation wherever I go. If somebody doesn't want to talk to you, I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass. I won't talk to them. But if somebody's open to having a dialogue about anything, wherever I am, I talk to them. I'm interested in who people are and where they come from and how they ended up in front of me in this very moment. If you look at it that way, that can be very interesting. I also think...
It helps to like yourself and to have some peace in your own head and have some interests or hobbies or things that make you interesting. That period of my life when I was a miserable kid, which we've touched on a couple times in this conversation...
I don't have shit, right? I mean, I thought horses were cool, but I didn't pursue it at all. I was not happy. I wasn't happy with who I was and I wasn't happy with my circumstances around me. And I didn't, other than you, who I met before my parents divorced and Steve DeRosa, who I met before my parents divorced, I don't have any friends from that phase of my life until I got to high school, right? So if you look at that pattern that appears to be
ring true. Right. Yeah. Now you'd say, oh, well, you're a kid and the friendships fall apart, but bullshit because I have you, I have Steve and I have Molly Hartman who are friends of mine from before my parents divorced when I was younger. And then I went through this phase where I was very unhappy and I didn't cultivate any relationships, even though I went to a whole different school with a whole other crop of kids that I, who knows, I could have been friends with them, but I thought they were assholes, but maybe I was the asshole. Right.
More than likely. You probably were. I mean, more than... Yeah, you definitely were the asshole. Oh, God. Remember the phone calls? We were terrible. We were pretty bad. But...
That's for another show. That's for another day right there. One of the people that I consider to be a very close friend, even though I don't see him very often lives in Brooklyn. And if he hears this, he'll know who he's talking, who, who I'm talking about. Won't name him by name. Um, but we spend a couple of days a year together somewhere like this past year, he came to Oklahoma and then he actually drove with me to Arizona. Um, we have the best conversations. We have the best time. We laugh a lot. We, uh,
other than that he also happened to have grown up in New Jersey, but I didn't know him before college. We don't really have anything in common in our lives, but we have a mutual respect for each other and we're very interested in who each other is and how we got there. And it's fun to connect with him and our perspectives on the world, how they overlap despite those differences. I think the more you talk to people, the more you find that. But I also think that it starts inside. I think you have to
If I'm reflecting on it, if you're not happy with who you are, you're not going to make any friends anywhere because nobody's going to want to talk to somebody. Nobody's going to like you if you don't like yourself. And they talk about that in relationships, like romantic relationships. If you don't love yourself, you won't find love. That's got to be true. You're never going to have the confidence to make friends and think people are going to like you if you don't like yourself first. And if you don't like yourself, people will probably see it some way or another. It's hard to hide.
something as, as deep as that? Well, I think it's impossible to be authentic in a social interaction with a, with somebody new. Okay. I think it's impossible, human nature, impossible to be authentic with somebody new, if you don't like yourself, because you would be exposing a vulnerability instantly. Right. And human nature is not to do that with strangers. So if you, if,
I just don't think that that happens. I mean, I think that'd be an interesting psychology or sociology study to do. I don't know. But I do think that my grandfather was certainly a big influence there. I said in his eulogy that he had the courage of his own convictions. And I think that he impressed that upon me to believe in
who I am and not be afraid to put yourself out there. And that's kind of how you build friendships. Part of it, of course, is stepping outside your comfort zone, I guess. Be in a conversation and you might make a friend that way. If they don't want to talk to you, then fine. But you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. And not every conversation that I start is with the intent of making this person a lifelong friend. Quite the contrary. Sometimes it's just because I'm...
attention deficit disorder and like i need to occupy my mind by doing something so i engage with another person in the room um you know it's occasionally those develop into friendships but if you have an interaction like that a day over the course of my 38 years you're going to develop a lot of friends that's something that really stood out to me and it was something i always took note of and be like hmm you know that's something i should learn from that's something i should
try to do, even though it's a little bit against my nature in terms of my personality type. But like last time we were together, you were out just
talking to strangers, just starting up conversations cold. You just walked up to a table full of strangers and all of a sudden, before I knew it, they were sitting with us and we were dining together, laughing, having a great time together. And I just felt like, wow, that's really powerful. I just look at it and I see that as an art. I see that as a skill. Certainly talking to people is a skill. But
I don't think that it was like I set out to do that. I think it's the consequence of other things that I endeavored to do that skill became necessary. Like, you know, developing a book of business for a law practice, running for city council. Those were things that I did in my late twenties that is definitely where like I cut my teeth, so to speak at,
personal interactions with strangers because you have to engage people in those settings. And I did a lot of it. I think it's fair to say that I was deliberately putting myself in those situations for personal gain at the time.
Right. I mean, I'm 27, 28 years old. I'm at a law school. I'm either running for counsel or on the council at that time in my life, trying to get votes, trying to get people to like you, trying to get people interested in your policies, trying to recruit new clients. I mean, I was deliberately networking for that purpose.
Ultimately, you burn out on that because I don't really go to networking events at all anymore unless it's something I really want to go to or if it's a fundraiser like this buddy of mine in Arizona drags me to sometimes because I'm just over it. But I have that skill, I guess, that I developed in that environment.
Now translates to, you know, I do take a genuine interest in people. When I go somewhere, if something piques my curiosity, I'm not shy and I'll talk to them. And, you know, if they reciprocate, great. And if they don't, don't, I'm never...
I don't really get embarrassed. I mean, that thought process never even enters my mind. Like, I don't worry about like, oh, this person's going to think I'm an idiot. Like, if they don't think my joke is funny, then I'm just going to go on with my night, you know? And oftentimes my jokes are not funny. Yeah.
What's to be afraid of? Is the guy going to punch me in the face? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'm not going up there insulting his mother. I'm asking him what he ordered off the menu. But it is this fear of, am I just going to make a fool out of myself? Like, oh, what if I walk up to someone and they just want zero to do with me and I just end up feeling rejected and made a fool of in a way?
Yeah. I mean, that happens way more often than not for sure. Right. Like you just try to have a conversation with somebody you've never met before, like particularly right. Like at an airport or on an airplane, um, that's almost become cliched, like to talk to somebody that you're sitting next to on an airplane. Um, yeah.
I did. I'm like, okay, you don't want to talk to me. All right. Well, in my head, it's like, oh, fuck you too. Then, you know, like, I don't really worry about it at all. Do you strike up? Are you always the first to strike up conversation with the person sitting next to you on an airplane? Funny? No, not always the first, but I almost never talk to someone who starts a conversation with me. I don't know why that is, but like, it's like, man,
I don't like your approach. Because you feel like you need to be in control. You need to have started the conversation first. And if they started first, you're like, nah, fuck that. Maybe there's some subconscious superiority bullshit going on there. I don't know. I don't know why. That's just kind of how it's played out.
Like up and go the headphones, you know, but I haven't been on an airplane in so long. It's hard to even remember. I haven't been on an airplane since March of 2020. And I've been all over the country. I've been driving. Was that just because you hate airplanes? Because you do hate airplanes, right? Yeah, I think so. It's just you can't you just can't sit still for. I can't sit still. So this gets to a phobia. I don't think I'm afraid of death.
And this may make me come off as sounding crazy, but maybe there's someone in the audience who will relate to this. I don't want my death to be so impersonal that I die together with like 200 people I never met. Really? Is that it? Yeah. Is that why you hate airplanes? I'm not afraid of dying in a car accident alone. Like, oh, that was my time. You don't want to share your death with other people. Yeah, I want it to be much more personal than that. I don't know. That's really like...
It's so stupid. But that's like a thought that goes through my head. It's like, we're all going to die like cows in a cattle car at this airplane. I feel like that should be like a personal moment. I don't know. It's a dumb thing, but it's a thought that I've had for sure since I was in my teens. Speaking of death, has the recent passing of Al kind of given you a new perspective on life and death and that whole...
It's front and center. So, um, I think I like it to put it in, in, in your words as a perspective, it's just like, it's under a microscope right now. Um, what is like your own mortality or, or what? My own mortality and what happens after death. Uh,
given way too much thought to that the last couple weeks you're gonna choke me up again you fuck um yeah uh you know i know you and i've talked a lot about this in the past i think but like you know what is consciousness and you know does like does consciousness beget the physical world or is consciousness the consequence of the physical world
And I have spent a lot of time thinking about like, you know, in the wake of my grandfather's death, like, what does it all mean? Where do you go? You know, certainly natural things to think about after you lose somebody as close as I was to him. I don't have any brilliant conclusions to share with you. I'm just perplexed. You know, like the whole cliche that life is short and, you know, it really is like,
Does that feed into any way that you kind of want to alter the way you live your life going forward? Because of his influence in no small part, I'm tremendously blessed to have lived on my own terms as you described it and to take the chances that I think will help me.
give me some satisfaction or gratification out of life to do good for other people, to get to know other people, to learn, to grow, to take chances, both in my personal life and in business, to have strong relationships. I don't think necessarily I'm going to be changing that. I think...
what I'm going to do is appreciate it more. And you can never be too kind. Developing that appreciation for that tenant in life too late, I think. Maybe not. I mean, I'm only 38 years old, but I think kindness is more... I took it for granted for a long time. And I regret...
Not necessarily being an asshole, but like there's no shame in softening your edges. Even if you're not deliberately being an asshole, you can actually go out of your way to be kind. And so I regret opportunities to do that, that I didn't take.
And I'm going to try to do better with that. And I'm sure it will be a challenge and I'm sure I'll miss some of those opportunities. But yeah. I really enjoy talking to you, man. This was good. We should do this more often, like podcast or not. I've been trying to convince you for a couple of fucking years. You're like, oh, we'll get around to it. Took my grandfather dying for you to invite me on. You know? The rest of the sun will see my back.
I love it when she runs high, high, high, high. I love it when she runs high, high, high, high.