Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying this podcast, support us any way you can. Hope everyone's been enjoying the great National Day holiday here in China. I want to take this moment to say that this is episode number 94, and when we reach 100, we want to do a special Q&A episode in celebration of this small milestone.
We think it's going to be a great chance for us to interact with all our listeners. So we're asking all of you, send in your questions. They can be questions about literally anything. There's no restrictions. We'll try to answer these questions the best we can, or at least give our opinions. In our 100th episode, it's coming up very soon, so don't wait. You can reach us on our email, WeChat, Instagram, or even leave your questions in the comment sections or even in the review. All right.
Today, we're talking to a friend of the show. She's been on before. She's a young professional having already worked all over the world. We love having her on and getting her perspective on things. Today, we talk about the export of culture, primarily the traditional export of American pop culture, and we speculate on the growing influence of Chinese pop culture going forward in the future. We also debate whether the net positives outweigh the negatives when it comes to the effects of social media.
And we talk about the decay in the integrity of journalism, news media, and its influence in our worldview, emotions, and even relationships. This one was hosted by Eric and myself. So without further ado, please give it up for Anne Shen.
How are you, Anne? How are you today? Oh, great. I think it's a...
I feel like I haven't celebrated Mid-Autumn Festival for quite a few years. I think this has been, in the past three years, this is the first time actually I celebrated Mid-Autumn Festival. So feeling great back in town with my parents and then with Eric. And then also right after the holiday, I'll start my new job. So everything's good so far. Congratulations. Thanks. You listen to...
a little bit of our last episode, Anne. And we made, I think we had quite a bit of commentary from the perspective of someone who grew up in America, but then has lived in China for a while. And while we sort of have firsthand experience growing up in the US and
culture and things like that. A lot of what we've learned in China is really just secondhand because we haven't gone through that personally, but we did speculate around some of the differences. And so I wanted to know,
What parts of the conversation maybe resonated with you? And, you know, do you think we were correct about some of our assumptions? Or were there some areas where you could kind of poke holes in our understanding of how people grow up in China and pop culture here in China? Everyone kind of grows up in a very different way. And I guess you probably already heard that the millennials growing up is already very different from those who were born in the 80s.
So I would just speak from my own experience. I think growing up, definitely pop culture is in my everyday life. I grew up in 90s and then where the Sailor Moons and then Tom and Jerry and then Skittles and then all the like, it was a lot of- Was Tom and Jerry big here? Oh, yeah. In China? Oh, definitely, yeah. Tom and Jerry was big in China? Tom and Jerry was big. The cartoon? Yes. Not the ice cream? No, not the ice cream.
No, I mean... That's Ben & Jerry's. Oh, yeah, that's Ben & Jerry's. You know Ben & Jerry's? Oh, yeah, that's the ice cream. I can't believe I got Tom & Jerry's and Ben & Jerry's confused. And I was like, why there's an ice cream called Tom & Jerry's? How come I never know? Now you know where my mind's at. Well, and like, let's back up for a moment, right? Because we had Ted...
Yeah. Right? Ted Chen. Ted Mo. Mo Chen. Chen Mo. Chen Mo. Okay. And Ted was kind of like on the border, but he was what? Gen Z. Gen Z. He was born in 96. 96. And he was like right on the edge. You were...
Close to, you would not be considered Gen Z, but you're still Jiu Ling Ho. Is it Jiu Ling Ho? Yeah. Right. Okay. All right. Because I think we're learning a lot about different generations because our guests span many, many different generations. Yeah.
The hosts do too. So let's go back to, so you grew up in the 90s. So you were a baby kid in 90s, Tom and Jerry Skittles. Tell us more. I was really obsessed with Tom and Jerry. I think back then on television, I can see what is available on Cartoon Network.
So Cartoon Network was big here? Yeah, it was on my TV. And I remember every day, 5 p.m. I didn't even fucking have Cartoon Network. I had like fucking ABC and NBC. I was all about Cartoon Network. I didn't know what happened. But I guess, or maybe it could be like some of the Chinese TV show they buy. Maybe they buy like a certain cartoons. Buy the rights, the license. Right. And then because when they play it, there's this label that Cartoon Network at the bar.
So that's how I know this is from Cartoon Network. - Was it dubbed in Chinese? - Yes. - Oh, wow. So what channel was this on? - I don't remember exactly which channel, but I know they play Tom and Jerry every day, 5:00 PM, and I would be right in front of the TV. - So when we think about like, okay, Western culture being a more recent phenomenon, but like literally in the 90s, there are already companies that were thinking ahead
and bringing things in to China. And this also goes to what we were talking about was America's biggest export, which was culture. And we see this influencing...
different generations here in China. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I remember even before I watched, actually watched the Mickey Mouse, like I remember they were selling those plush toys and then those were all made in like into Mickey Mouse and stuff like that. Even before I even know what that is, I already see it being like these like plush toys being sold everywhere.
So you saw Mickey Mouse before you even knew what Mickey Mouse was. Yes. Before you even knew what Disney was. Right, exactly. So it was very interesting. And then later on, when I become a bit older, then I know, oh, these are all Disney characters. And then that's how I get to know Disney. Because back then, all I know is those individual cartoon characters. I don't know who created them.
Well, look, these Disney films always have some sort of emotional impact. I mean, right? I mean, I think everyone has their own childhood story of what was like the first Disney film that like made them cry or made them feel something. Because for me, the first time I actually I remember crying at a movie theater was when I saw The Land Before Time.
and that's the Disney film about the dinosaurs, right? And that was the first time I remember sitting in a theater with my mom as a little kid watching this and just sobbing. And I remember, because there was a theater full of kids, right? Parents and their kids.
Every kid was sobbing. So the whole theater was just like crying. All these kids crying in the movie theater. That's one of my earliest memories. And I think everyone has like some people, it's Bambi, right? Oh, yeah. Bambi the deer. Yeah. I mean, that's... We don't have Howie on the show, but Howie. Wink, wink. Wink, wink. What?
Well, Justin was sobbing with a land before time. And, you know, we've got some... You're trying to collect ammo against me right now? We're taking you down. Okay. And you heard that, right? We're taking Justin down. Because he's this sort of like solid manly man. He's not vulnerable. Right? Like I hear I'm getting like wedgies and stuff. And he's the one giving wedgies. Stop.
I've never given a wedgie in my life. We're going to take you down. Don't make me out to be a boy. He's like, yeah, I played football. I was all-state linebacker. First Asian all-state linebacker in high school. We're going to take you down, Justin. You're not 18 anymore. I've never said that on air, by the way. Oops. No, no, I'm saying. It's not like I'm flouting. But is there any Disney movie that made you cry, though, Eric? No.
Really? Like never? I'll tell you who made me cry. No, anyways, let's not go back to the parent issues. Wait, wait, Lion King? Did you watch the Lion King? Oh, that was the one that made me cry like a baby. See, everyone has one. Every generation has one. Yeah, especially when Mufasa died at that cliff. Yeah, that's the same. I cried as if that was my dad. We talk about storytelling a lot, but the Disney animation writers are like,
are some of the best storytellers there are. Yeah. I had plenty of other things to cry about. There's a dark side to Disney too, though. You guys know about that stuff? Like, there's a real dark side to Disney as well. What do you mean, a dark side? Yeah. Like, there's a dark side to that corporation. Real dark side. Okay. You guys never heard about, like, any of those stuff? You can, if you go back and look at a lot of the old Disney animations, you'll see a lot of, in the artwork, you'll see a lot of hidden characters
Let's put it that way. Yeah. Real dark stuff. Oh, really? Yeah.
You can go online. You can go down a whole rabbit hole with this stuff. But it's true. I've rewind a lot of the Disney films and you can see it. Is it because people overthink some of the teachers? No, no, no. They're blatantly in there. Oh, my God. I mean, some of them are just disgruntled animators who draw hidden fallacies in the artwork. And these are animations for kids, right? Right, right. But some...
Some stretch beyond that where it's really about a pretty dark culture in Disney as well. That was before, though. Is it now? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, that was before. I don't know if it continues now. Maybe that's how I got my quirkiness. Well, it's amazing the seeds that get planted, and they're so unpredictable. You could have someone growing up in Bulgaria...
and have watched certain things and had those seeds planted from a very early age. Like it's, that's, this is the power of like the U S export of, you know, China exports like all the physical products and then the U S exports all of the intangible propaganda. Well, that's, that's yeah. But before the U S was exporting its culture, it was also exporting. It was exporting physical products. And then as it developed,
It changed because it started outsourcing all its manufacturing. And then it started being the leader in culture. And then that's when it started exporting culture. So, you know, one of the topics we talked about in that last episode was like, okay, well, we're taking a snapshot now. But let's say 20, 30, 50 years down the line, we see what is China going to be exporting? Is it also going to be exporting its culture, just like how the U.S. has been doing for decades? Mm-hmm.
And I think that's a very real possibility for sure. I mean, any country that gains a superpower status, especially if it is kind of like the undisputed number one superpower, which has been America for so many years, you know, I think the tides are changing now. But, you know, who knows? And if China kind of takes that spot,
then China is going to, you know, the export of culture is going to start shifting to Chinese export of culture. And that will be very interesting to see if and how that plays out. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's interesting because...
So I wasn't like following closely on like all the popular Chinese TV shows or anything. But there is one that I was watching like since last year. It was pretty much a show from Hunan, and then they gather a bunch of celebrities, female celebrities who are over their 30s.
They form a girl band, right? Exactly. Jessica loves that one. You know, that one was like, the season one was very successful. It was huge. Yeah, it was huge. It was like the... It was like the pop culture thing. Yeah, it's like the Ding Liu at that time, right? And then they tried to copy that formula. And this year, they kicked off the counterpart. So they bring all the male celebrities. Oh, really? And that one was... Not as good. Not only just not as good, and then there were more...
I would say there are definitely more chicken fights. Chicken fights? What are chicken fights? So when guys fight with each other and they get a little bit like... Oh, like women are cat fights and then guys are chicken fights? Really? Is that a real terminology? That was a joke. Oh.
So there's no actual term in Chinese even for men? But there is a saying like if they see two people fighting like very fiercely, they're like, oh, it's like like a cockfight. Cockfights. Yeah. Who wants to see a bunch of guys just
like past their prime trying to form a boy band like no one wants to see that yeah that was the assumption for last year's female like so what did the premise for the female show come from why did that come up because Hunan Waisu has done these type of
entertainment shows for... The dating shows, right? As long as I can remember. They've been a pioneer. The Bachelor shows, whatever. Yeah. And they've been a pioneer. So this formula of getting... What was the criteria? So you had to be a certain age. Tell us the premise of the female show because I saw you watching it, but...
I wasn't really focused on it. Don't lie, Eric. I bet you were so focused on it. No. But he knows everything about it. I was looking at the girl in the room. Yeah, he got dragged into this because of me. But I think for last year for the female, that show, and then I think they have certain criteria. So first off, like for female celebrity, they have to be above 30, including 30. That was the hard criteria. So yeah.
that cannot be blurred. And then I think, of course, because it's a TV show, they want to get enough
eyeballs so they select celebrities that has let's just say has certain 热度 or still having some 热度 so it's interesting to put them together and then the third one would be the actual the so-called the girl the girl's band it wasn't really that by the end of the show they're going to really become a band and perform and stuff like that it wasn't really like that
I think the process of the competition, making it into a show is kind of like Hunan wish, that thing for them, right? They started off with Chaoji Nusheng many, many years ago. That was a success. And then that was always like a...
let's just say a secret ingredient that they built into those TV shows to get a popularity. And then they- Oh, wait, what's the secret ingredient? I think they, so all the competition that you see, there is a playbook for each of those celebrities that are,
in this show. So they have to play in a certain personality. Either they are like making audience feel that they're annoying or they make audience feel that, oh, poor thing, right? Or they have to make the audience to feel something. So everyone has a role to play. Is this open or are you saying this is something that they decided behind the scenes? Behind the scene. And then people, all the celebrities that got invited knows the role they need to play. Really? So they're acting, really? Right.
Really? How do you know this though? Are you sure? Yeah. Because what celebrity is going to want to take the role of like the annoying person? Yeah. Because they have their face, their reputation to protect as well. So the thing that I mentioned like with the role, it's called 人设. So the set up personality. So it might not be your real personality as a celebrity, but there's some similarity or people can visualize you doing that. Yeah.
given all the media exposure that this person had before. So it's very delicate but interesting, let's say, a playbook that has been made. And then when they gather those people, of course, there will be room for some freestyle and stuff, but then they have to stick to that 人设. So it's not scripted, but it's almost scripted in a way of what your character is going to be on the show, right? Right, right.
Yeah. I mean, I guess I can see that. I've spoken to, I know some people that were on the, I forget what it's called, but the Bachelor dating shows. Right. And,
And they told me behind the scenes stories like, you know, nobody is there for love. Like no one is actually really there for love. It's like, you can't be that naive, right? That it's there just like, it's like kind of like a job or it's like just an experience for themselves. - To promote themselves. - Or promote themselves, exactly. Like the girls there, they're not there to like actually find a guy.
and vice versa. - Yeah, yeah. It's the same for this show. The goal is not to form a band, but it's to, for some of those celebrity, regain popularity because they are kind of like over that fine line of the age. And then also with them being a little bit older than they were before, the opportunities that are in front of them get reduced significantly. When they're in their twenties and in their teens, they can play a lot many more roles
in any drama. But then when they're older, they get, they are only assigned for roles like moms. And, right? Yeah, like why, I mean, do you feel that's changing? And I mean, as a Chinese woman, do you feel that's changing in terms of the, like,
over-emphasis on age, particularly when it pertains to females? Yeah, I mean, not just age. I think it's also your physical appearances. I think there's definitely some pressure from the surrounding that as women, you have to look like
hopefully good like when you are outside of your home like you have to look good presentable and then people are quite like a lot of like my female friends are very anxious about the way they look um
Like even when I see my friends, I see them all like beautiful. And then they were like, oh, I gained some weight recently and I have to like kind of like punish myself for not eating certain things. I guess some of those pressure come from the society. Some of them, because they look around on the social media, everyone only show their best side. So that also kind of take a toll. Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, we've spoken about that a lot on the show too. Social media,
I don't know. I have such mixed feelings about social media in terms of the overall net impact it's having. And I cannot say with any confidence that it's a positive net impact. Yeah. I can't say that. Like, you know, like I'm not qualified to really unpack that as, you know, Eric always says, but...
But I can't say, personally, I can't say with any confidence, can any of us say with any certainty and confidence that the net overall impact of social media is actually a positive one? I don't know. Well, like having lived in like both the US and China, how would you characterize people's reactions to social media and the things that attract people's interest? Do you see any differences?
I didn't follow too closely on Instagram on celebrities, but... Well, let's... What social medias are you on, then? I am on Xiaohongshu, and I'm on Instagram occasionally, Facebook. I barely use my Facebook. And I think Xiaohongshu is like the main one, and then WeChat, of course. So from WeChat, it's mostly your friends, I would assume, or people that...
you would know, right? So that's a different type compared with Xiaohongshu when most of the content are produced by people that you probably don't know. So it's different. I also think WeChat, I mean, it's definitely social media, but it's moved into its own category, different than TikTok, different than Xiaohongshu, different than Instagram, because WeChat now is a utility. Mm-hmm.
- Yes. - Where it's a communications utility device. - It's a super app. - Yeah, like you can't really live without it. - Right. - And you do all your communications, whether it's professional work, personal communications, you pay your utilities on it, you buy things on it. It's become a utility organ, right? - Right. - Whereas it's the focus, the main thing when you think of WeChat, at least for me, is not entertainment. - Oh, for sure. - Like when I think entertainment, I don't think WeChat. I think, oh, I need to, like utility, I need to communicate, right?
But when you talk about TikTok, Douyin, when you talk about Xiaohongsu, Instagram, whatever else, you think entertainment, like it's there for entertainment. It's not there for any actual communication in terms of how it affects your daily life, right? So I think it's a different category. - Well, those platforms are, they're subtle distinctions and they're overlap as well. But if you look at like Xiaohongsu or TikTok, these are content,
you know, content distribution kind of sites where it gives it, it sort of empowers and gives people the opportunity to create content. And then it builds a platform for people to consume content. And so it's more anonymous in the sense that
You have content creation, content consumption, and it's probably, I would say, less relatively speaking about the community aspect. It's more about that common interest or topic. And then when you look at WeChat, you look at WhatsApp, you look at the communication tools, these are then primarily communication tools that have the social media, that have content creation tools.
features, but it's more for your network of people that you know and for you to communicate within that network. So I think how do these all fall into the broader categories of internet or whatever it is? Probably there's some definitions that we can assign to them, but I think there's some distinctions. Like for you, Anne, because you're an interesting person to talk to because
You're Chinese, obviously you're raised here, but you have exposure and experience dealing with international culture as well.
When we talk about social media and you're on the Western social media apps, you're on the Chinese social media apps, do you see any sort of distinction between them, difference between them in how they're consumed or how you're consuming them? Or do you feel like it's all pretty much the same? I would say the difference that I feel as a user would be
Before I even used Xiaohongshu or Douyin, I really liked YouTube, to be quite honest. I follow a few influencers on their channels and I follow up to their latest episode. I really enjoy watching it. Their show ranges from 30 minutes to like 45 minutes. And even with like very annoying commercials in between, I would like bite the bullets and finish the whole thing. But once I was introduced to TikTok and Xiaohongshu,
I no longer go back on YouTube because I become more and more impatient with content. I want the content to be like a flash, like a flash mob. I want everything, all the goodies right in- - You want that dopamine hit right into the veins. - Right. - You want to inject it right in the veins. - I want it like right in front of me. I don't want to beat around bushes and watch things to build up. - Right into the heart. Not even the veins. - Right into the arteries. - Like Pulp Fiction style, Lance style. Just right into Mia. Boom.
And then I realized YouTube won't get that kind of sensation anymore. It will be from TikTok. YouTube has become too slow for you. Exactly. And I think that was the main thing that really kind of got me surprised because I really used to like YouTube.
Like I was really a heavy user. But then ever since TikTok and Xiaohongshu and now running my own Xiaohongshu on the channel, I realized the content that would really catch more eyeballs in China would be content that are quick, straight to the point, and then catchy.
So like how many minutes of a video? I would say like the ideal video ranges from like one minute to three minutes. Those are like my attention span. Maybe people with better focus have longer time. How long are your videos? My videos are on average about one minute and a half to two minutes max. On some of the rare videos when I talk about random topics, then it ranges to like three to five minutes. What's your channel called?
It's called 安安爱烧饭. It's a cooking channel. Okay, okay. Awesome, awesome. So you teach people how to cook on their recipes and stuff? I can't teach you. You're a better cook than I am. No, no, no. Come on now. You have your own channel. Does Eric ever appear on your channel? Get Eric on your channel, please. You know, I have a few videos that he's like eating the dinner in the background. He's usually like...
There's like a shot, you don't see the face, you see the food, you see a couple of muscles here and there. She just uses me for my biceps. I trade my biceps for great meals. But it's interesting because what I've started enjoying is that we've done enough episodes now
We're getting close to 100. We've done enough episodes now where we've been able to bring on people that some are experts. Like we had Ted. He was an expert on social media, on the internet, on content. This expert on the internet? Yeah, yeah. He's an expert on social media, education, ed tech. Yeah, I don't want to oversell him, but he's knowledgeable or he works in the field of...
how we're using the internet, social media, short videos, et cetera, how people are consuming content, et cetera, et cetera, right? So I don't know what this category, is there a name for this? It's not social media per se because social media, I think, is more like the WeChat, that kind of stuff, than the short video stuff, live streaming, there's different names. - He's an expert on ed tech, education technology.
But he's very passionate about social media, the internet, content creation, all that stuff. And obviously he's a super smart person. So he has a lot to say on that. Yeah. So he has some industry expertise on the tech side. And he's also a Gen Z-er so that he has that perspective. And I think we've just had enough people on the show where...
We're catching people that have knowledge, firsthand knowledge in terms of the specific industries. We're also catching people like Anne who, in addition to that, they're part of the consumer base. Like they're actually the audience. And then being able to kind of bring these things together, looking at it from a business perspective, looking at it from industry perspective, but also looking at it from a human perspective. And when you connect some of these dots, I start finding our conversations interesting. And so-
Ted mentioned that the short video format
Right. So like before we talked to Anne, he mentioned that 14% of people in China spend their time. So when they do spend their time on the so-called internet or digital world, 14% of their time is spent on short video. And that's already overtaken WeChat. That's quite a lot. Which is really, really interesting. And he also talked about that the definition is that less than five minutes is considered short form. Of course, we talked to him about long form because we're long form, but he was, we're
we were talking about that shift to not even medium form, five to 30 minutes, but less than five minutes. So when you ask that question to Anne, like how long are your, you know, what do you like to listen to? How long are your videos? It's really interesting that it anecdotally kind of fits into that parameter. And so that her attention span is now shrunk
To literally like one or two minutes of just like- This is not for my future employer. It's like, you know what it is, Justin? It's like a trailer. It's like we don't watch, it's almost as if we said we don't watch movies anymore. We just watch trailers. And why is that? Why is that? Because you can, in the span of a two hour movie-
you can watch 100 trailers. So what's the trade-off, right? Would you rather watch 100 trailers of different things or would you rather watch two hours of the same shit? Right. I actually find what you said interesting because something that really got me hooked on Xiao Hongshu, besides cooking shows, is the... You know how people kind of just tell you what a movie is about, all the stories? And then it was a pain to watch the whole movie. But it was such a...
good shot of energy if you just watch somebody tell you what the movie is all about in three minutes. It's like Cliff Notes. You remember Cliff Notes? I remember it. I use Cliff Notes a lot. I use Cliff Notes to write all my papers back in school. But I think that the best part about those three minute video telling you a 90 minutes story
movie is that they saved the best part. They even did a better job than the official trailer. The official trailer was like even boring. - Yeah, some of these recaps that they do is like, it was really great. - Yeah, and then the way they retell the story, make the original story looks pale. So you almost be like, why isn't this guy the director? - I can tell you why, I can tell you why. Okay, here's my armchair expert take on all this, right?
Because they're giving you all the highlight moments. So it's like watching a full basketball game versus just watching a short clip of all the highlights of that game. Now, do you want to sit through two hours of just like plays going back and forth? Or do you want to just watch all the dunks and all the shots, all the three-pointers, like whatever it is. You watch the highlight clips. The highlight clips are much more entertaining all the time, of course. But there's a deeper thing going on at play here.
And it's a podcast that I had listened to a while ago. And the guest on this podcast was the guy who wrote the book basically outing the U.S. pharmaceutical industry and also big food, the big food industry in America. And he's a famous writer. His name escapes me right now, but he has some bestselling books. You know, you can look him up. Anyway, yeah.
One of his takeaways was whether it's with actual drugs and pharmaceuticals, whether it's with food intake in America, he relates it all to the drugs, drug addiction, which is a book he also wrote about as well. It was about the cold narcotics industry. And basically all the research shows that
that the shorter the time between some sort of taking the drug, whether it's intravenously or orally or whatever, however you're taking it, to when you feel its effects, the shorter that time is, the higher addiction level it has. Yeah.
So if you look at all the most addictive, extremely addictive drugs and substances, it's all the ones that are immediately you feel the effects. Right? Whether you're snorting it, whether you're injecting it, those are the ones where you immediately feel. The ones where it takes longer to hit, those are the ones that are actually less addictive. So there's a scale.
in correlation between time of, just time of, I don't know how you explain it, time of feeling the effects of the drug versus its addiction level. And I think so often, even in the TED episode, but so often have we compared the intake and consumption of content in media
like a drug, like an addiction. Because we use the same terminology. We talk about dopamine. - It is. - Dopamine hits. And even in your case, Ann, you just said that like now even YouTube is too long for you. You can't wait through the 30 second commercial anymore. You have to have it right away. - Right. - And the shorter you get those dopamine hits,
the more you engage with it, right? The more you like it, the more quote unquote, you're addicted to it. And now even in terms of the type of content, it's not even the platform. So that's about the platform. Now it's even in terms of the type of content, you wouldn't even want to sit through
full-length movie necessarily but you'd rather get the three-minute recap of that movie which you find much more entertaining and engaging for you because you're getting all those hits in sequence within three minutes versus diluting them and spreading them out through an hour and a half two hours of a film yeah right so it's very analogous in that sense where
This is why I harp on the idea of what are the actual net effects of media nowadays. Is it really becoming, is it really a positive or a negative? Who knows? But we can draw all these parallels to real addiction cases and real addiction research. And it follows a lot of the same patterns, which is so interesting. Yeah. And then if I think about those short videos, it fits so well into...
especially with the fragmented time that I have. Like I probably don't have a solid two hours, you know, just sit there in front of the screen. But, you know, on the way when I'm like messaging people and then sometimes, oh, I happen to find some, like my followed influencer updating something and it's only two minutes and then I'm riding a metro, maybe that two minutes I can watch something. And then it's just fits very perfectly and like unlike the longer form. So there's the convenience factor in there as well. Right, right.
As life gets more fragmented, and that's what's happening, right? I think maybe it was Laurie Santos from Yale or someone else on a podcast was talking about how time becomes like confetti.
And it's just getting more and more fragmented because the way the world's working, the speed of how we're all doing things, and then your time literally gets fragmented so much so that you can only fit smaller, smaller pieces in. And in a way, good or bad, short videos, short form videos are actually solving a need. And the need is that this long piece of contiguous time that human beings used to have because the world was working in a different way
because we didn't have technology bombarding us all the time, because we were on the farm and we can do things that were much more general long form, because time has become confetti, then we need to fit things into those smaller time slots. And these short videos are filling that need. Now, is that a good thing long-term? Maybe not. But all of these things that are coming up are actually solving for something. Yeah.
Yeah, but think about this. Like if I need to learn how to make a new dish, instead of watching the 30-minute YouTube and you have to wait for an hour before the dish arrives at your dinner table, now it takes me three minutes to watch the video and then you get your dish within probably 30 minutes. Well, it's like compression. Yeah. It's more productive, I think, some of those content depends on what that is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's like, there's...
excess or fat and everything. And it's kind of like cutting all the fat out. What you want to make sure though, is that you don't get to the point where you're cutting the meat out and that's the fine line. And so I think like sometimes these short form videos, definitely they help you cut the fat, they get back to the essential and you can get to the point. However, there's a dark side to that. And there is...
A lot to be said for savoring an experience, really going through the journey. And there's things that you can't learn in three minutes. And most things you can't learn in three minutes, but there are some things that you can. And perhaps it's important to distinguish that. Like you're not going to learn how to be a concert pianist in three minute chunks. But if you've already got a fairly strong foundation in cooking, I can acquire new dishes in my repertoire,
in those three minute chunks. So I think it's very situational. I think to build up the core base of skills, you need to go through the hard work, but then three minute little burst mode type of segments can allow you to acquire things in conjunction. But I think the problem is that people are now treating that three minute snack as nutrition and it's not nutrition. Yeah. And it's also like, what are the kind of
effects it's having on us that we're unaware about, right? Like, personally, I love short videos too when it's educational stuff. Like if I'm learning to cook a dish, I don't want to sit through a 20 minute video of teaching me how to cook a dish. Tell me in three minutes, just hit the main points. I got it. I know, right? That's all you need to tell me. So I get that. But what are like the unknown effects it's having on us in terms of
our attention spans, our ability to critically think and intake and hold information, right? Like what is it doing to, and all these probably other symptoms that I don't even, I'm not even aware of,
What is it actually doing to us over the long term? And where is that really headed? I don't know. None of us know. But that's the scary part. We can all agree on the productive utility of content and media nowadays because we all benefit from it. We're all users of it. Yeah, I do feel the same about what you mentioned about critical thinking. What does it do to...
this part of the human attributes, right? Because there are, other than those educational content that teaches you how to do something quick, there are a lot of content that are quite opinionated and the person who makes, who produce that content might not have
let's just say might not have enough experience to actually represent that topic. And then they still speaks up. And then because, um, the reach they have, they might, um, actually form certain mainstream opinion about something. And then even though it's not really true, they kind of, you know, they can skew the public in a way that is not. We see that happening everywhere now, everywhere now. So I definitely feel that that's, that's something I personally feel quite like,
like concern as well because I see quite a few videos that talk about current topics but then they're skewing the facts but then more just speaking not from the mind but just from their hearts how they feel versus what it actually is yeah and when you say speak from the heart usually we see that in very positive light but we have to understand that the human heart is filled with prejudice and bias but too much hearts yeah
But like, it's not even social media content. It's not even these independent content creators that are doing this or what you're saying now. It's actual mainstream media, right? And if you look at in the States, there's a huge distress for mainstream media. I mean, CNN has, and even the New York Times have come out with just literally completely fabricated stories. And they've been called out on this many times. The latest one,
You know, this is gossip, but the latest one was when they talked about, you know, Joe Rogan, right? Joe Rogan got COVID.
And they can't and CNN had launched this whole news piece about him getting COVID and what he was taking. And Joe Rogan came on the air the next day and was like, wait a minute, like, what you're saying is completely false. It's like, it's so inaccurate, right? And there have been time and time cases of this the Rolling Rolling. No, not Rolling Stones. Was it Rolling Stones magazine?
It came out with pieces that were just completely fabricated. And these led to like kind of major news. And then once one news outlet comes out with something, all the other news outlets, yeah, butterfly effect, they all repeat what that news outlet says. Even if that news outlet wasn't fact-checked.
This is Justin's pet peeve, by the way. It is. You know, because I happened to be interning at Fox News a long time ago when we called back then the citizen journalist started to search, which means the individual like non-journalist professional recording videos and then just randomly upload it online. And then, you know, kind of like in a bad way sometimes.
do create fake news. And then I was reflecting on how this could happen to mainstream media network like CNN, right? Like it's just like unimaginable. They should be like really holding up to their standard when they're like, you know,
They have been trusted for so long. Exactly. And now that trust is gone for the most part. And then I think about how, what I did when I was an intern, the way I was taught is that, you know, you want to write a news article as an intern. What you do is you go on social media, find some like hot topics when there's the most comments and then dig into it and see if there's any issues
let's just say main coverage, like major coverage that's been done. And then you kind of take the same story from different media resources and then you kind of like, you're like the scissors. You cut the best piece and then you kind of like kind of see if you can reformulate certain things. You kind of paste them together to form something that's actually very inaccurate, but together it makes for a very juicy story, I guess. Yeah, but that, of course, there will be the control point in the news station where maybe the editor, producer will look at it. But like...
with all the journalists trying to do the same thing, how likely are they going to fact check if they have time? Because if you don't send out the story with a certain deadline when it's cold, nobody wants it. You already missed the deadline and someone else has come up, come out within, they're going to get all the, well, it's, that's very interesting. And I want to hear more about your actual personal experience in training for Fox. I mean, Fox is, is obviously very guilty of what we're talking about too. They've been, I mean, it's, it's ridiculous what's on their network, but,
Really, I think it's about the incentives, right? Like media, I mean, when we talk about media right now, we're focusing on Western media, US media. The incentives, because it's been, the industry has been privatized. Journalism has been privatized. And now relating back to social media,
How do you win in that space? You win by having your videos go viral. You win by having the most views and likes and earning the revenue on these different social media platforms. No one's picking up a newspaper these days anymore. They get their news through social media, through their phones. So when that is the game now, when the rules of the game and structure of the game has changed and morphed to this, how do you win in this space?
You win by creating clickbait. You win by chasing the views and the clicks. And all the media outlets are doing this now. So it's journalism, the integrity of journalism has been so compromised by this, where like you say, it's more important to get a story out first than to fact check the story. Mm-hmm.
And that is why, you know, I think journalism is very dead. I certainly thought of, think of an anecdote from one of my, like,
long time ago internship so I remember there was one time I was I was called to go to like to be on site to film something because according to what I was feed in the news like in a text is that there is a bear caught in one of the Pennsylvania neighborhood and then this bear is like probably still wandering around and then you have to go and then probably interview some of the neighbors and see how people feel because it's like rare in
And I remember I went and by the time I got to where all the journalists are gathering, the bear has been already put to sleep. And then we are kind of like doing it the backward way. We are like, oh, what happened to the bear? You know, why is it now like immobilized by some tranquility?
tranquil or something. And then they say, oh, we actually use some donuts to lure the bear out, and then we inject it with a tranquilizer. And then when I talk to more people, they're like, oh, you know, they bought some Dunkin' Donuts, vanilla cream filled donuts. That's that bear's favorite. And then the bear has some, and then people just like, you know, try to immobilize it when that happens. And then you talk to more people, the story gets juicier and
juicier. And then it's... And these are journalists you're talking to? Yeah, like because when I got there, there are like some other journalists from different channels already there, definitely longer than I have been. And then I just talked to them. I was like, what happened? Everyone was telling me something that has one more layer of juicy piece to my story. So I ended up not really talking to the neighbors. I just talked to those journalists and then I make my notes and then I form like a short write piece.
Well, where do you think those journalists were getting those details? Do you think they were just making them up or do you think they were just getting them through us talking to the locals or witnesses? I think some of them did come from the real witness, but I mean, vanilla cream filled donuts will get the bear. Do you believe that? I really doubted it, but I found it's funny, right? Might not necessarily be true, but what,
But that detail will get a click when you see that headline. What's the hurt? Like, exactly. Like, for people who consume Dunkin' Donuts might be interested. For people like me who's, like, love eating vanilla. Maybe Dunkin' Donuts sponsored that whole piece. Yeah, like, it almost, like, sounds like this. But it's, like...
all those like interesting ingredients that may be not even true, but it doesn't hurt, right? It's not going to skewer the fact that the bear is like out alive and running around in the neighborhood. It's already been immobilized. But that's the slippery slope. Oh, this isn't hurting anybody. I can make this up. It's not hurting anybody. Yeah, but that's the trick. Yeah, that's the trick where things start to go really south. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, look, if you think...
Obviously, we know a lot of the mainstream media is making up a lot of things, even domestically, about their own country. But even think about when it comes to more complicated things like international politics. Then, if you don't think mainstream media is making up a lot of bullshit in that field, in that area, then you are very mistaken. Well, there's a lot of noise out there and...
You know, I think like we're sort of trying to highlight and help build awareness of the pitfalls of what happens when you try to consume mainstream media and rely on it as a source of facts. So we're kind of highlighting that. At the same time, the way I look at it is that these are all commercial enterprises. Like you said, they're privatized, right? Yeah.
And they all have their consumer base that they need to cater to. Like, it's no different. They have to produce a product that their customers want. And so, you know, we've talked about this before, but for me, then it's just taking the extra step and saying, okay, what am I looking to get out of this? So let's say that I want entertainment. Okay, I can go to CNN, Fox News and have a laugh.
as long as I know what my purpose is. And let's say that, okay, I need to know the information because I'm running a business or my business is connected with politics and I need to understand government sentiment and things like that. And then in that case, news may be one source of truth for me, but then maybe I'd go to a company like Ben Cavender's company and then get that information from them. And so I do think that we have a responsibility to
to make the right decisions, to number one, understand what is my intention? What am I looking for? Am I looking for entertainment? Am I actually looking for news? Do I want the truth? Do I want different perspectives? Do I want to get sentiment on what other people are looking at? Sometimes the entertainment value allows me to understand, even though it in itself might not be true, that I can understand what people are thinking.
Then I would look at the different sources and understand, okay, who do they cater to? Who do they get paid by? Where do they make their money? What's their business model? And I make the decision. So it actually...
It doesn't bother me. I don't feel like it's something that I spend a lot of time struggling with. I don't feel like I'm in a world where people are trying to brainwash me all the time, although I should probably be more careful and validate. But I don't feel like I'm in a world where I'm struggling, where my time is being occupied, where I'm being hijacked and my mind's being hacked and all that stuff. I don't really feel that way. I feel like I'm still in control because there's not a wire that's
or a cable plugged into the back of my brain. So I feel like becoming outraged by these things is also what they're trying to actually do to us. Like to get us like so that we get pissed off at CNN, we get pissed off at New York Times for sharing this, sharing that. I think if you step back a little bit and you kind of look at it for what it is and what it should be, it is what it is.
And it allows you to take a different view on it. I agree with your point. I feel like if we're talking from a personal level of how it's affecting us, I completely agree.
Like, I don't, like, I get worked up about it when I talk about it on air. But on my day-to-day life, it doesn't affect me. Because you're kind of like outside the matrix in a way where, okay, you see the bullshit. You see the game they're playing. So you kind of brush it off, right? You don't get too wrapped up in it. But what bothers me is when I'm not taking my, from my own individualistic point of view, but I'm looking out into the world.
And I do see a lot of people getting convinced of certain things and having very harsh emotional responses to certain pieces of information and news. And you can tell that, you know, most people aren't like you, Eric. Most people aren't as well-rounded as you in terms of
taking in multiple sources of information and being open-minded and being able to live in different places and having that kind of mindset. Most people, they have their network of choice and every night after dinner or during dinner, they're sitting down, they turn on their network of choice and that's where they get all their information from. Unfortunately, that is most people. So when that is the case and people,
that is happening, it's very, it's terrifying in a way where you're like, well, okay, well, shit. Like, there's nothing you can say to these people. There's nothing you can do. And you go, okay, well, I can just, I'll just be responsible for myself. Sure. But you have to live in this world still. And this world is filled by other people with their own opinions and their own values and their own worldview. Yeah.
And that's when it becomes a personal thing to me because it's like in the future, I'm gonna have to live in this world. My kids are gonna have to live in this world, right? And how messy is it gonna be? And that's what scares me. That's why it's a pet peeve. That's why this is almost a subject I'm so passionate about. - Yeah, I recently, I mean, although that was not,
not really like a news like news news what you see on newspaper but like kind of going back to the very successful show that Hunan Wei should produce right that was the original thing we got a whole tangent yeah
Yeah, I suddenly, that just hit me. So that show that they recently made was like with the male celebrity that you said, oh, who's going to watch that kind of show, right? I did want to watch it because there was like a really good singer, Lin Zhixuan, he's like in the show. I'm like Jiu Lingho, right? So I kind of like I listened to some of his songs when I grew up. And then recently there is this very sensational incident where...
um so ling zhi xuan it turned out he's very talented in singing there's nothing you can he's like singing skill is impeccable but when it's come to um dealing with people he has um some let's just say flaws right and then certain things that he said on the show will be taken in a totally wrong way and you know how some of those um who now wish it is they would like pick some um
and then try to turn it around, make something that is actually something you can just brush it off into a major sense. - They take it out of context, right? - Exactly. And like you said before, like some people aren't immune to this type of manipulated content and then they get swayed.
And then, plus the butterfly effect, things start to go really nasty. So as it turned out from the recent episodes, there were two incidents that got a lot of eyeballs online on social media. It's that when the singer is dealing, when he's teamed up with two dancers, and then the singer made a comment that when they perform on stage as a band,
like a group together, this singer do not want the two dancers to sing because first off, they aren't professional. And then plus with his skills, I would say only when you are really, really good at singing and being a professional, like you can't sing with a professional singer like he is because he's really, really good. So when he made that suggestion, it really pissed off the fans of those two dancers because they're like, why...
why aren't we allow a chance for them to try something they sign up for? Right?
And then this thing started to go butterfly effect. And then like people start to make really terrible comments. And then it turned out to be like almost like a violence on social media against this poor singer who just like said something because of his, let's just say, artistic experience. That's what his experience has taught him. And he didn't really do anything wrong, but it was perceived as something terrible. And it becomes very personal at him.
And then, and of course there are people who get sway and people who like me was like, but wait a minute, isn't this such a big deal? Really? Like, don't you see what's happening here, guys? Yeah. Like I, I was like, first off, I mean, I'm, I'm really not a fan of this singer. Like I'm not like fan, fan following him around, but I think it's, it's, it hit me and it was like really weird for me to not say anything when I see that content because, um,
I think it's like almost got to a point that I think people are really swayed and then they are totally blind to what was happening on the other side. Like, I mean, first off, like in any situation,
cities that you are in in China, do people just give you a chance because you want to venture into something new? No, this isn't particular about this guy. This is like what happened every day. Although ideally, we hope that the world will be very inclusive and let you try things that you love. But this isn't just particular about this singer, right? And second off, like,
this singer is out of the place in the show. This isn't the type of show that he's going to be a good fit in because he's more artistic. He should be performing for a different audience that really appreciate his talent, right? Instead of for more entertainment-heavy content like zongyi for this kind of show. So he's like totally out of the place and people just like slash him relentlessly. And I feel really bad for not saying anything.
But then at the same time, I have my dilemma because I was like, oh, I run a cooking show. I can't just like put a video about kind of like defending this guy. Well, then you'll get attacked. Exactly. Like I would get attacked. And at the same time, my content, because I need to produce my content for people who are interested in cooking, not kind of like commentating on the entertainment news, right? So I can't just do it on my channel. So...
I have to find like other ways, right? So what- Start another channel. I think you're really good at this stuff. And I think you're really articulate. You have a great mind. You have some really intelligent thoughts. I think, you know, if you're interested in that kind of like more gossipy or more intellectual commentary kind of stuff,
like start another channel and do that too. I mean, I think you'd be great at it. I just think it's like a lot of work. So I was like, let's just like- This is how like SerpentZA and all those guys started. She doesn't know SerpentZA. You know what's funny is I'm looking, I know that like,
You know, we've been talking about expanding our horizons a little bit so that we're not so American Western centric and kind of like, you know, just living in China, but still like holding on to all of our Western sensibilities, right? And being open minded and absorbing more stuff. And when Tenet came out, we talked about this, like what shows in China do we actually know about? And so I think this is good that we're expanding our horizons a little bit.
And I'm looking at this show, right? This male show, Call Me By Fire is the name. I see, I see. Call Me By Fire. For those who wonder what's the Chinese. Okay. The English name is Call Me By Fire. It's totally different translation. What is it called in Chinese again? So it's like for brothers who slash the thorns and then get through all the obstacles. So that's what it means in Chinese. Yeah.
And the women's one is called, in the English version, Sisters Who Make Waves. So it's kind of the same thing. It's like people who are kind of like influencing and kind of pushing through certain things. But I'm looking at the contestant list, right? And it's fascinating. Because I don't think that this Terry Lynn guy is the only one that might be out of place.
I happen to know a couple of these guys just randomly from my musical interest. Li Yundi is someone that I follow. He's actually one of the very top Chinese classical pianists. Him and Lang Lang are two of the top. So you have some fucking classical pianist dude, some stiff in this...
in this, you know, Call Me By Fire, right? And then you got like fucking MC Hot Dog. MC Hot Dog, he's a badass, okay? Now get this one, Justin, you're gonna laugh. MC Jin's up in this mofo too, dog. Yeah. Wait, wait, hold on. I have to watch this show now. I know. It's crazy, right? All of a sudden, this turned from the worst show to maybe possibly the best show of all time.
- No, no, because there is something to be said as much as we like laugh and criticize that because everyone is out of place. But I think they're doing it purposely because they're trying to create this motley crew of contestants
Because that is the intrigue, right? People are like, how are all these people who are so different going to come together? And that's the piece that people are going to tune in for. Yeah, and let me connect this to what Anne was saying, right? Because I'm personally not so invested in the show, which then gives me a little bit of detachment. Think about this. Because what I'm thinking in my head is more...
like why is this formula successful? Because we've seen Hunan Ways and these channels evolve and create incredible innovation. They're not just copying the Western shows anymore. They're like coming up with new formats. And so for me, it's like, number one, what formats would be successful? Number two is what insights can we generate from people in China by their choice of show and that type of stuff, right?
If they choose such a diverse group of people, all of these people have been famous at some point. So number one is they have a fan base, but their fan bases may not overlap. Like Li Yun Di's fan base is not going to fucking overlap with MC Hot Dog. It's going to be one person, me. Okay? Me. You are their target. No, I mean, but everyone's going to have their own fan base. Okay? Number one. So that's part of the formula. Number two is,
Everyone who's a fan is going to think their guy is an underdog and thinks that Terry Lynn is the underdog. And so it's going to create these feelings of like, I want to, I want this guy to win. And it's kind of like sports in a way we've been talking about sports. Right. And we've been talking about underdogs and heroes and all that stuff. So it's getting people to then be rabid supporters of these people. And because it's such an eclectic group, they're going to like fuck with each other too. Yeah.
And many of these guys are sort of past their prime. So they're going to fight even harder. And then the male ego thing, right? And the women have their cat fights and men have their chicken fights, whatever you want to call it. So it's interesting how all of her emotion, the fact that she wants to go on her hard earned, you know, cooking show and stand up for Terry Lynn. It's like, man, they've hacked your brain. That's the purpose. That's actually what they're trying to do.
That's true, right? Every reality show, and we've seen this formula play out time and time again, starting from like the real world back on MTV, right? Is that when it comes to reality shows, drama gets more viewers and creates better ratings, right?
They want the gossip. They want the fighting. They want the drama. Then they want to bring you into the fight. Yes. That's what they're trying to bring you into the fight. You start taking sides. Okay, anyways. Let me clarify. I'm not trying to fight because I want this guy to win. Okay? I think it's unfair that
it was unfair in a way that all the argument is swayed to one side heavily and then this artist who is really talented got disrespected. That got me to speak up. It's not because I want him to win. I don't care. You're not even really a fan of his but on principle you felt it was wrong. Let me bring in an analogy. I don't know if most of our listeners could relate but we'd love to
like share this example so in in in the us okay the rap culture can be very very violent and one of the main genres of rap music is gangster rap and in gangster rap
part of the appeal and content of their songs is that they create rivalries between different rappers. And it becomes very nasty. It's almost like life and death, Israeli, Palestine, to the point where many of these rappers have actually been shot dead. And then that becomes a reference in the next song. And it's all about disrespect. It's all about some word, some phrase, some comment you made.
It happens in rap, even in sports sometimes. And then people take things out of context. Now we have social media and every word that you're saying is recorded. But really in gangster rap, like 20, 30 years ago, this theme came out where people are
you know, their egos, their pride is being injured and it creates massive amounts of conflict. And it's not just like this person versus this person. It's like two tribes versus each other. I got to think that that's also what they're trying to do here. And I understand what you're saying. And in terms of like, it's not just about like, you want your guy to win. You also don't want your guy to lose unfairly. And I think that's even a more powerful emotion than your guy winning. And yeah,
- I think for me, I think the real takeaway, because you brought up a brilliant point, it happens on all levels. And it's really to what you were saying, Ann, before, it's manipulation. They're manipulating content to get you to buy in and to stake the ground, draw your line in the sand, get emotionally invested. - Pick a side. - Pick a side.
and get emotionally invested in it because that will keep you watching. That will keep you engaged, which benefits them, right? And you say, we see this on all levels. You said we see this in music, rap music. Definitely. Back in the day, it was like the East-West turf war. Tupac and Biggie, they're both dead. Tupac and Biggie are both dead. They were both shot. They're both dead. And...
And honestly, they wouldn't be as big as they are without that rivalry. So they helped each other in that sense. It's like Magic versus Larry. So Magic versus Larry. So we see that not only in rap music or music, we see that in sports. We see that in reality shows, right? Like drama and conflict creates more interest. We see that in politics, right?
This whole idea of ramping up this side versus that side, drama and conflict creates more interest. And that's why politics is such a, like when I was growing up, it used to be like a boring thing that kids weren't interested in. Nowadays, everyone is interested in it because it's become so glam, like glorified. And,
And it's adopted that same model of creating conflict and manipulating you to buy in, to take a side and become emotionally invested in. So we see that happening on all these levels. And it's really interesting because it's the same kind of formula and playbook, no matter if it's a reality show, sports or politics, right? And it's happening everywhere. And that is really kind of playing in
to like the kind of the human nature, I guess. Yeah, and it's fine as long as you don't buy in too much, right? But like in the rap world- But that's a big if, right? Like if you don't buy in too much, like how do you not buy in too much and how do you know if you're buying in too much? I have, you know, some of your comments earlier about this not being a good thing for the world and sort of your concern that society is moving into a,
greater conflict because of this. I have a counterpoint to your argument, which I think is very well stated. But I don't want to jump into that now. I want to go back to Anne here around, we kind of hijacked her show a little bit. But share your thoughts. Do you agree with us? Do you disagree? What do you think? Are you being manipulated? I don't think. I don't really think so. Go, Terri.
No, I'm not saying, like I said before. I'm just jealous. I'm not saying that go Terry, right? Like I said, I was not really his fan. Although I grew up listening to his song, like a few of them, because my parents like him.
But I really, like, I wouldn't really root for him in this, like, reality show or anything. But at the same time, I think what really got me emotionally invested in Your Word is because when I see people really take something out of the context and go to one side of the cliff, and then I feel, I feel really, like, it's not that I feel bad just for Terry Lin. I feel bad for those who
are under attack for something that is taken out of context. And that is unfair. So Terry Lin is just one incident. Maybe you would say, oh, this is, you're getting brainwashed by certain content. But at the same time, isn't this something that because of this platform, because people now gain visibility, and because...
now people actually form communities for those special topics, then there's a way for people to hopefully sway the point of view from others off one cliff to the other, you know, just balance it, right? - What you said, Ann-- - Sorry, I'm far away from call me by fire now. - No, no, no, no. What you just said really resonates with me. And you put into words,
exactly my feeling that i have not been able to clearly i think articulate and i think um even people around me might and listeners of the show might misunderstand sometimes is that you know like eric you call it like my pet peeve right when we get into these kind of like pseudo media slash political topics and and it is you're you're right you're absolutely right about that
But you hit the nail on the head, Anne. And it's not that I'm wanting one side to win over the other. You know, we talk a lot about China and the U.S. And we focus on these two nations because obviously these are the two nations where we're from. And these are the two nations where we've lived. So we know most about these two nations. And it just so happens that there's a lot to talk about. Mm-hmm.
But I harp on these issues not because I am drawing a line in the sand where I want one side to win over the other. I really don't. I love both these places. But it's like you, when I see something that I feel is really truly unfair, taken out of context for the sole purpose of manipulation.
It's hard for me to be quiet about it. And so before this podcast, I would talk to people around me about this. Now I have this podcast. Now that there are actually people listening, like you said, there's this platform to, in some small way, I do want to talk about these issues because these are, this is something that I'm passionate about because it is something that I see as important.
dreadfully unfair and taken out of context and it's shaping people's behaviors and mindsets in ways that become grossly diluted twisted misinformed and what i feel is misdirected right and so i i get you on that piece like when you when you shared how your feelings of
whether we're talking about the show with Terry Lynn or even more important aspects, I feel the same way. And it's that same reason. It's not about me taking sides. It's about me pointing out. Like we're missing the point here, guys. Yeah. And it's hard to stay silent about that. I get you. But I do think there's the danger. Like if we go back to a lighter aspect of the reality show is that
Those shows are precisely designed to create these emotions. I mean, that's the manipulation piece. And so the fact that we feel this kind of rage on a show, not reality, the fact that a TV show could allow us to even connect those two dots emotionally and compare these things, that really worries me. And so in that sense...
I truly agree with you in terms of the impact and the negative impact that social media technology can have when it becomes the primary form of truth for people and when there's no other alternatives. And the point I wanted to make earlier is that I don't think this is anything new.
fundamentally new in human civilization. If you read Steven Pinker, you read people who have looked at the science and the facts. I mean, we have less wars, less conflict. People are way more civil. We have longer life expectancy than at any time in history, in general.
I do think that what social media and technology has done is given another weapon for people to manipulate and to advance their own agendas. And whether it was religion in the past, military, politics, we've always had a voice external to our own conscience, an external voice in our head that's really, really loud and manipulating us. And so this is not something new. And in fact, I don't even know if social media...
has more influence than religion did 200 years ago. And the fact that people have been fighting tribes and I mean like people within like a 10 mile radius used to kill each other. Doesn't happen as much anymore. So I very much agree with you, but I don't want to like kind of press the panic button because I think that
People trying to manipulate others to fight and to create conflict for their own purposes is universal. It's wired into us. And people are always going to tap into it. That channel has basically always existed in our minds. And just people are finding new ways to tap into it. And I do think the danger of social media and technology is that it can go viral. So before the toxicity was contained...
within a small geography because you had to have the physical ability to influence these people. And now it's much more widespread because I could just send a message and everyone can kind of see it like Kingsman, right? You can just tap into people's brains. But on the other hand, people back then had no other sources of information. So I just believe with my local...
my local politician, my local pastor said to me, and that was also very dangerous because they had no other source. Then you're in the bubble. They're totally in the bubble. What's worse, right? Who knows? So I think that's the only sort of nuance I wanted to add was that to not ourselves get so emotional on these topics where when we're trying to kind of advocate
more logical, rational approach, and also to look at it in perspective of these problems have always existed. So it's more about building awareness and what you can do to inoculate yourself or immunize yourself from it rather than get caught up in that emotion of like, this is not fair because that's precisely what they're trying to do to us. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you put a really good, fine point on that.
And you're right, like, it's nothing new. What we're talking about is part of human nature dating back to human civilization. It's nothing new, but... It's still a problem, though, unfortunately. Yeah, it's still a problem, but the...
the vehicle in which you can do this has changed, right? So like, yes. Is social media exposing anything new about human nature and human society? I don't think so. But it's giving you a much stronger tool to do it with. So it's like, for example, like you're talking about like wars and conflict has been a part of human society since forever. But imagine, you know, when the technology was only bows and arrows, right?
So you can only kill people who are kind of in front of you. Now you have long range missiles and machine guns and satellites. Now how has the stakes have risen? So it's like with social media, now we have this amped up tool now to act on these kind of ancient human urges that we've always had.
And it just, it creates a deadlier weapon. That's the point I'm trying to make. And it's a great point. The weapons are deadlier, but the weapons are also...
in some ways have more checks and balances and have more awareness. Because before, if you killed someone with a bow and arrow in Inner Mongolia, no one would give a shit. And so like, I think we just need to bring balance to the conversation because there is always this tendency to be like, oh, it's the worst time in history or it's the best time in history. And to always, again, take that. None of us have said that. None of us are making that argument.
I think we, that's our tendency though. That's our tendency to obsess over these things and we need to give more balance to, like we're not saying it, but we're thinking it because we've already- I never thought this was the worst time in history. Not the worst time. Because I'm not comparing it to other times. What I'm saying is that these types of things have happened over history, but we're only, if we only look at it now, right? And we kind of sound the alarm,
we don't give ourselves the benefit of kind of understanding the context of that this is not a new thing, a phenomenon due to social media. This is that people are trying to manipulate other people and having that perspective actually helps us not get so emotionally attached to it and zoom out and be like, okay, this is something that's a function of and feature of human beings. Social media is just the latest tool. I do think there's value in being able to speak to it in that way. Um,
and balance the conversation, you know, in that broader context without just saying like a CNN, Fox News, right? They're just the latest enemy. They're not the only enemy, right? And so, you know, I wasn't saying that you said that it was...
you know the worst of times or the or the best of times or anything like that but i do feel like this goes back to like you know that's what we're trying to that's what media is trying to help us like trying to you know manipulate us to do is look at the snapshot and conflate that to the rest of history like right that's media is always telling us this is the worst of this is the best of all time yeah that's what they're always trying to tell us i don't want to fall in that trap yeah
They're over like glorifying or emphasizing or making the stakes so high. You think like, oh my God, this is like the craziest thing it's ever been, right? When we talk about COVID, like there have been worse pandemics in human history than COVID. But if you turn on the news and they make it seem like, especially the Western news, they make it seem like this is like the fucking doomsday of doom. They like to catastrophize things, you know? And so I just think that it's important for us to,
constantly monitor our own thinking so that not only do we not buy into their content, but we don't buy into the way they think. And that's the thing that's the scary part. Like the content itself is ridiculous. We can easily ignore that and filter that. But when we start then
unconsciously developing emotions and think about the stories that they have they could completely fabricate this terry lynn thing or whatever it is get you all riled up in reality terry lynn was actually behind the whole thing i mean i'm not saying that right like that that's completely speculation like not even speculation i'm just making an argument
without any knowledge. But what... But we know it's happened before. I mean, Jesse Smollett with, you know, like, it's happened. Yeah. I mean, that one is where maybe the facts have ultimately bared it out. So I think it's just always important to kind of think, okay, what if we had... Do you have all the facts? No? Okay. I'm not going to weigh in too much on this one. Yeah.
You make up a good point. It's like the content itself we can easily dismiss. But it's like when the algorithm is, when we're adopting the algorithm in terms of applying it to how our own minds work, then that's the real engine of danger. The ultimate hack. Cheers. Do we need to pour more? Let's pour more. All right. Well, let's wrap it up. I think...
I really enjoyed that conversation, guys. I know you did. Thank you, Anne, for coming back. Always a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for having me. You should really just replace Howie. Should we just make that official? Oh, my God, Howie, what have I done? Okay. Well, let's wrap it up. Some closing comments. We're going to do a Q&A episode where we're going to be taking questions from all our listeners.
and responding to these questions on our 100th show. So please, don't wait. If you want to, please write in and send in your questions. It can be anything. It can be topics that you want to get our opinions about. You can ask personal questions about us if you want, like whatever you want.
Send in your questions. You can reach us through all the social media stuff that we're on, talking about social media, that we're on in the description. That's our WeChat. That's our Instagram. That's directly through our email. Even in the comments section, if you're on Shimalaya or something like that. So please, start sending in your questions so we can start collecting them and we can have them ready for our 100th episode. And in particular, like,
Well, we appreciate you taking the time to listen to the show because we're not the three-minute soundbite. And so if there are parts that you're passionate about, if there's certain things that we've talked about that you have a point of view and you want to expand and ask a question around that, I think those are the things we really want to encourage that dialogue. I think we're okay, Chinese, English, whatever language, whatever.
we'll be able to process that question, right? Yeah, you can send them in any language. Well, just keep them to English or Chinese, please. And the reason why we're making this announcement at the very end of the show is because, you know, it's really for our true listeners. We just forgot. Actually, you can put it at the front.
Yeah, I mean, we probably should put it at the front, but I like to put it at the end. I don't know. Anyway, all right, guys. That's it for now. Cheers. Cheers. All right. Be good. Be well. I'm Justin. And I'm making weight. And I'm Anne. All right, guys. Peace. The rising sun will see my bright eyes.
I wish you my time. I wish you my time.