Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. Check out the description below for more details. And if you've been enjoying this show, go ahead, leave a rating, comment, and subscribe.
Now today, we're going to change gears a little bit and talk about wine, specifically the rise of winemaking in China. Our guest is an expert in French and Italian wines. He's been working in the wine industry for decades. He's a judge for international wine competitions, and he is also a wine writer, writing for many gourmet food and beverage publications.
His interest in Chinese wines started many years ago, and since then he's been exploring all the wine regions in China, visiting the vineyards, and meeting all the incredible winemakers here. Today, we talk about where China ranks among the top winemakers in the world. We talk about extreme winemaking and the sheer difficulty of producing good grapes here. We learn about many intense fights and debates within the winemaking industry. We talk about the old stigma and bad reputations of Chinese wines in the past.
We talk about wine snobs. And really, as normal people who don't know much about wine, we gain a much higher level of appreciation for it. And most importantly, we learn how to better enjoy it. I think it goes without saying, we are drinking some great Chinese wine in this episode. So next time you're out with some friends, why not try some good ones too? This episode was hosted by Howie, Eric, and myself. So without further ado, please give it up for Lionel Legall. ♪
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All right, everyone's levels are good. Yep. All right. I'm turning on... Oh, I forgot to turn the last one. 143 hours. Okay, I'm turning it on. I'm showing it. When it hits like 80 minutes, I'm like... Ding dong. My rule of thumb is just to ignore you, Eric. That's too pivot. Pivot time.
You can step outside while they fight it out. Well, Justin, I keep my emotions under control, luckily. And I let others finish what they're saying. All right, whatever. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers to the finishers. Cheers. Justin, I have a recommendation. There's a great episode called Tight and Loose. Loose and Tight. That's pretty good. Wow. Okay. First of all,
Let's welcome you to the show, Lionel. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Super, super excited to be here today. Thank you. Thank you for bringing this bottle of wine. Yeah, I think it's a good way to start when it comes to talk about vino, right? I mean...
So wait, it's called Mountain, the name of this wine is called Mountain Wave. Yeah, yep, yep. Well, it's a nicely designed bottle. It's a Malbec, right? 2019. 一山一水. 一山一水. Okay, so we're drinking Ningxia is a region in China that is...
famous for its vineyards. Yeah, yeah. So China, actually China has around 10 different sub-regions, wine regions, okay? So it's, yeah, it's a bit more than what we could anticipate. With China is ranking among the, it depends on every year, but fifth to sixth wine producing country in the world.
So, it's like a ranking? Yes. Like a world ranking in terms of? Of volume. Of volume, okay. Is it like France, Italy, America, et cetera? Correct, exactly. Oh, France is number one still? So, every year they have a big challenge between France and Italy. So, it's very tense. What about the US? Where does the US rank in that? US might be
Close by to China again. Okay. In many levels. Olympic Games. So they're battling on all areas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, China 20 years ago was not in the top 30. Like not even in the list. Yeah. That's amazing. In just 20 years? Yes. So this is what I've been...
witnessing and acknowledging, you know? So this is also what I was like quite interested for me to move forward because I've been, as I said, I arrived firstly here in 2001.
So back then, when we speak about Chinese wine is the banquet wine at the middle of the table, dynasty. - Dynasty, yes. Was it called dynasty, the wine? - Yeah, it's still there, it's still there. - Okay, where is dynasty made? Is it also Ningxiao or is it? - I would say those major three, they have different vineyard all around China. - It's made in Pudong.
But yeah, that's the, in the, you know, traditionally, in my experience, like the,
like the wine drinking tradition in China was at these like big wedding banquets or something. They would pour the glass all the way up to the rim and then you would gambay. - And they do gambay with that. And it's not pleasant. - No, it looks pretty fun. - You've never done it? - I've done it all the time. - Exactly. - I prefer to do it that way. - Does it look fun?
- It is fun for you. - It's a lot of fun to me. Chugging a whole glass of wine every time. - So I kind of arrived at the moment there was a bit shifting. The first, I would say the revolution towards quality for Chinese wine started in '97, right?
I arrived here in 2001, so they were kind of starting all those new projects, mostly family-owned. So just to finish on those three major labels at that time, Dynasty, Great Wall, and Chongyu. Great Wall, yeah. Yeah, you still see all three of those. And they are here. They are still here. And you buy them in the convenience stores? Yeah, they are all available, and they reshape their range. Some of them are not bad, okay? So let's not always put everything bad. Okay. Those big...
makers 18 million bottles, okay, just to give you some kind of volume. And since they're newcomers, they had to also reinvent themselves a little bit, right? Because among them, I would say Chongyu is a pioneer. That's what they call themselves because it's 1892, right?
That's the starting point of the setting up the winery. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That long ago? Yes, yes. So I like to... I'm the type of person that likes to pretend I understand what people are talking about when they talk to me about wine. I love drinking wine. But I think a big...
kind of story in China throughout these past years is really kind of the rise of the Chinese wine culture here, the wine making quality, I guess, and volume, as you alluded to, all these vineyards winning awards, or some of them winning awards. - Yeah, big, big. Some wineries are crazy, they have full awards. - Like legit awards. So what's the honest status of the winery
winemaking in China today in terms of its quality compared to all the old world and new world wines that are more established in other countries?
Tremendous improvement the last five years. That's a clear fact. In just five years? Yes. I mean, they were bad, they were okay, and now they are set, they are clear. They know where they want to go. Because, I mean, so this is one thing about the result, but another thing is also how hard it is to bring a proper...
to become wine in China. - How hard is it? - It's the hardest possible process. - Why? - Because to start with, China is maybe, and here I'm starting to be a bit careful with my wording, but yeah, China is not a place to grow grapes. - In terms of like temperature, climate, et cetera?
- We always talk about new word versus old word. And then there is the new latitude. So China belongs to this new latitude. And new latitude is not a word by me, it's used by Jensis Robinson, she's a master of wine, so I feel comfortable to use that. So why? Because here we call about extreme winemaking. So what is extreme winemaking?
two cold winters. The vine like to have cold winters, so the leaves are falling. But here, we are minus 30 in the winters.
where the vines are grown, okay? And here I'm talking about Ningxia, I'm talking Hubei, Xinjiang, all those places, even they are super hot in summer, are super cold in winter. The vine likes to be cold, minus two, three, maybe 10, but minus 30, it's no go.
So what happens is that you bend the vine and you bury it. You do this by hand because there is no machine to do that. And then in the spring, you unbury and bend it back. Wow, so they have to go by hand and bury each vine under the ground when winter rolls around. And what is the result of that? Is after 10 years, the piece of...
vine is breaking, then you need to replant. So on the cost level, it's tremendously high. Okay. So this is why I have a lot of respect for
from a winemaking and viticulture perspective. - And this is unique to China only? - Fairly unique. You have some other places where they are doing that, but yeah, overall it's quite unique. - But probably not to the scale that China is doing. - Yeah, not to the scale, yeah, yeah. So this is, and I'm talking for Ningxia, as I said, Ningxia, Hebei, Xinjiang, so most of the wine regions. Only Shandong will not bury during winter, but Shandong will have some other problem about
is a wrong timing of the rain in July, June, July. So that's also very difficult. And Yunnan is altitude. So Yunnan has it all from those perspective point of view. - What about Shanxi? Doesn't Shanxi also have? - Shanxi, they are bearing the grapes too. Super cold. - 'Cause like when you think about wines,
They come from like different regions. And like these regions have like hundreds of years of history, like in France. And then you wonder like, well, why can't they just grow wine anywhere? And why is it certain regions that have like such great, great, great wines? So it has to have something to do with the geography and the mix of things. And that's really, really complex, right? So I was always curious about that. The other one I'm curious about is that they told me disease is
It's like a really, really big problem. And so like the way they bring grapes over, like it was, I can't remember exactly what it was, but you probably understand this. It's like they have to like take the grape vine and then attach it to the existing grape vine that's already in the ground. And there's different ways of introducing the grape.
But disease was like a massive issue as well. Does any of that make sense? Because I didn't quite get it when they were explaining it in Chinese. So what you're explaining is about grafting. Grafting, yes. So back to what you were saying about terroir. So because terroir, and I think it's really good that you mentioned this word because everybody used this word as...
a word that everybody understand, but maybe it's always good to refresh. - Maybe they don't really understand what it is, right? I thought it just meant like- - I'm a wine expert myself. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I thought terroir just meant scary, no? - It means the overall environment, right? - Terror, right? - Yeah, but it's a bit more precise than that. - I didn't catch it, it went over my head. Go ahead, go ahead. - Yeah, so this terroir, beyond being a French word that everybody
like to use and being fancy. It's a clear combination of things. So soil and the environment about sun and about weather, the vine itself, which is about the viticulture. And the last part is about a winemaking, the human touch. So all these things make a combination of you make a good wine or you make an outstanding wine. And the human factor actually, it comes at very...
late stage. Right. So the large, vast, significant portion of what makes a good wine versus a bad wine is really all in the growing of the grapes. Absolutely. And then the kind of human processing afterwards is, affects it marginally. It's just enhancing.
Just enhancing. But if you don't have the good grapes, there's like just really little you can do afterwards. Is that the rule of thumb? That's what people say. Okay. So I was checking online. So I can't pronounce terror or terror. Terror. Yeah.
It looks like it's fen tu. Yes, in Chinese. But it sounds like it's like the overall, it's not like one specific thing, right? It's like everything combined together is that. And that's what the complexity is. So it is impressive that in China, 20 years, they've been able to
make so much progress. How much history does France have in terms of wine? When was the first vineyard in France? - Like 10 years, 10 years history. - 10 years? - They started in the 90s. - I think they started over 'cause it wasn't that good, right? - It's 300 before Christ.
- 300 before Christ. - Yeah, that's this. - That's not that long ago. Wait, so it took them that long to make a decent wine? - Be careful, we got a Frenchman in the house today. - So I'm just saying that because this morning I was doing a wine lecture, okay? It's not like I know all those things. - No, we like to joke around, you know that. Yeah, so to kind of relate terroir back to what we normally talk about, which is like psychology,
- Terroir is the nature and the nurture of it. - Exactly. - You know how we have the nature versus nurture. - Yeah, absolutely. - But terroir is both. - It's the combination. - It's the whole thing. The whole kit and caboodle. - And you get this terroir notion, not only with wine, you can get terroir from- - Olive oil? - Definitely, absolutely. - Coffee. - Coffee. - Whiskey.
- Tomatoes? - I don't know. - Anything that grows. - You'll find that we- - That's enough. - Literally, let's name all the things that grow from soil. - Yeah, let's just stop. - Because you need to process. I mean, tomato, I mean, unless you do the tomato paste or something. - So I just want to hit back again on the whole idea of China in such a fast- - Pace, yeah. - You know, fast pace, getting to that level. And also you mentioning that
geographically and there's a lot of issues that China faces with growing wine that has overcome. So in terms of all that, with your experience with all the different international wines all around the world, what really makes China wine special then? I mean, at the end of the day, everyone's growing grapes, but different areas have different types of wines. So what's China's thing? - Yeah, we are not there yet.
What makes China exciting is exotic from a point of view of sommelier, right? Just the fact that it's a newcomer? Is that why? Yeah.
- Are they also using different methods to make wine that the rest of the world is not necessarily using? - This bending and bearing the vines would be one of them. - That's from here? - Yeah, it's very unique. Very few other vineyards are doing that. So why I'm saying that China is not there yet, I would like to elaborate a bit about that.
First reason is it depends. There is one thing we didn't mention about the terroir is also the matching grape with the matching soil or matching sequence of grape. It could be more than one grape, right? So you go to Bordeaux, you have three red grapes, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, which makes the Bordeaux blend, right? You go to Burgundy, you have Pinot Noir. So which grape is the Chinese grape?
Okay. So this is a huge debate within the wine industry. Okay. With the local wine industry, you know, you have pros and, you know, you have people fighting, you have, uh, um, some, some winemaker who are consultants who are pushing this grape and this and that. Yeah. This one is going to be the China red grape for tomorrow. And I don't really want to get in the debate because I think it's, it's, it will happen. And, and,
And then in this debate, there is local grapes versus import grapes, right? And why I said Chana is not there yet because Chana is all about Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay. - Oh. - Yeah. - Those are the two best wines that Chana makes right now? - I would not say best, but the main quantities. - The grapes that they use to make the wine are primarily those. - Okay. - Which is the same of Napa
So it's safe. Commercially, it's a safe bet, but it's not sustainable, all right? Because as I said earlier, the cost is too high. So you will not produce big quantity to compete with the rest of the world because your price is too high already. So the only way you can go in terms of strategy is to go outstanding, to go super top.
But to make a top Cabernet Sauvignon, the competition is super fierce. I mean, you have Bordeaux, but you have also Super Tuscany in Italy. And of course, Napa. You have very good cab from Margaret River in Australia. So then you enter in a very different niche. And you find those, if we talk about Aoyun or...
Those guys are getting into this small circle of the top cabane of the world and they are costing 3000 RMB a bottle. Wow. We heard of Jade. Jade Vineyard. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So their top cuvee is also, I think there is Messenger and there is one I had. Yeah. And what about the Marcellin grape? Exactly. So this is...
Cause I like that. I've never heard of, I've never heard of that. Just FYI. Like I've never heard of that grape. We went there and we drank it. And then that's the one that Anne loves. So when she buys, she hasn't, um, send it down. Um, she always gets the Marcellin. Yeah. So Marcellin is, is, is, is one of the Chinese grape to be. This is, it's actually, it's a French grape. It's, it's, it's been, uh, engineered by, um, Cabernet Sauvignon and, um, um,
Is it Grenache? Yeah, I think it's Grenache together. - So a cross brand? - Yeah, it's kind of a cross. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's been made in Languedoc. It was not successful much. And then for China, it's showing pretty well. But again, it's showing well in Hebei.
I, and I spent a lot of time on, on Marcelo. Uh, there is a Marcelo day, which is also promoting, uh, I mean, last week was, was a pinot noir day. So every, you know, now and then you have the grape day. So when it comes to Marcelo, it's, it's an interesting, but again, for me, I really look forward to find the Chinese red grape. Okay.
All right, which is locally made. And back to my quest as a wine geek is to find the Chinese native grapes. I'm really quite excited about that. There are 30 Chinese local grapes.
So that means they were grown in China before anybody. 30 unique grapes that are found in China. Correct. It's exciting, right? And out of those 30, how many are... Commercial? Yeah. Yeah, not much. Longyan is one of them. Longyan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this is the Chinese white grape and it's very acidic. It's beautiful. I really like this wine. So I usually, I use a lot of him in my, in my tasting because again, I mean, you taste one Cabernet Sauvignon, it's fun, two, three, but after five Cabernet Sauvignon, I mean, you've been to Ningxia and I find this is, I mean, how many more can you do, right?
So, yeah. So this is, you know. Well, it makes sense. Like, imagine, I'm just thinking out loud because I don't really have a palate for these types of wines. But like, imagine like Beef Wellington, right? So like Coquille, the restaurant many years ago started making like Beef Wellington, like really, really delicious Beef Wellington. And then now you see that every restaurant
like western restaurant and then a lot of like there's a lot of locally open western restaurants in shanghai hangzhou and every restaurant has a beef wellington deal i mean it's just like it's super popular it's super popular it's like it's crazy right it's like you didn't used to see it everywhere but now it's like on all the menus kokio was the only you've seen this yeah kokio was the only one right i've noticed the trend and and then now everyone has beef wellington you go to hangzhou and it's like you open up da zhong diamping everyone has beef wellington
I feel like it's similar. It's like, okay, Bivo Alenon is great. It's like Cabernet Sauvignon, but then everyone's doing the same thing and it's just kind of like boring. I don't know if that's an appropriate analogy. No, no, it's absolutely right. And you will find a bit of same trend with Marcelin. So the other grape will be Cholongjou, which is Cabernet garnished.
which is also Carmenere, Jamena. So this is all the same, but with different names. So this is a bit earlier. So this is kind of a fight between those two grapes to get this Chinese red grape. So with the grapes...
this might sound like a really stupid question, but so white grapes, green grapes, do they just make white wines? - Yeah, usually. - And purple grapes or red grapes only make red wines? Is that how it's done? - Almost. Although the red grape can do white wine. - Oh, can it? - Yeah, yeah. - 'Cause it's just the skin that's red. - Exactly. - The inside is white. - Exactly. - Ooh, okay, clear. - So the color, yeah. No, actually it's a very good question. It's a very good question.
It's very well illustrated with champagne because champagne is made with three grapes. You have Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and Pinot Meunier. And Chardonnay is a white grapes. Pinot Noir and Pinot Meunier are red grapes. Okay. And champagne usually it's always, I mean, you can find some pinks, but it's a different story. Right. So if the grapes that are grown purely to make wines,
Can you eat those? Like, will they taste good if you eat them? Very good question again. So two different families, eating grapes and winemaking grapes. And under the winemaking grapes is called Vitis vinifera.
Let's be a bit Latin. - Okay. - I don't want to show- - That's like the plant name, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Scientific plant name. - And within this family, you have 10,000 of different sorts. - So why is it not edible? Is it just too bitter or? - Yeah, it's just- - It just wouldn't taste good. - Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's not pleasant. - So can you make wines with edible grapes? Would it- - No. - No, it'd be a terrible wine? - No, because the seeds and the color from the skin
It's a totally different format. You can make grape juice. What are the properties? Grape drink. I love grape juice. Grape drink. Grape drink. You know, Chabelle's Joe, is that grape drink? Grape drink. Well, what is that called? Like slurp or what is it called? Like codeine or...
You know, the rappers in the South, in Houston, right? They call it like grape. Kool-Aid? Grape. Kool-Aid, yeah. They call it like grape or something. Basically, it's like they drink like cough syrup and it gives you a high. Oh, really? Yeah. And it's back to your question about all the problem in the vineyard, right?
you need to have those grape in health, in sanitary good health. It has to, so no, no, because in the vineyard is a lot of bugs and they are not always good bugs. So this is also very important. And this is why people are using some pesticides, right? So is that a no-no to use pesticides on the grapes? Because it gets into the wine ultimately? It does, it does. But no, I mean, if...
Either you lose all the grapes or either you use some pesticide. So how common is pesticide use in wine making around the world? Is it a pretty industry standard to use pesticides? Yes. Really? Okay. There is a huge debate and here we are coming into the natural versus biodynamic and all those different... And then the other part is about using sulfites. So it's also a big stuff. So is there some sort of...
I don't know, health test board or I don't know what to call it. That tests the wines after it's made to see if there's high levels of pesticide in the final product? Of everything. Okay. So it has to be within a safe level until you... So the AOC board is the safeguard of all this. Is that global or...
No, it's per country. So it really depends how the government is pushing that. It's a French format that has been reproduced in Italy, in Spain. Does China have one?
They have wine bureaus that could act as it. Yes. - So I'm curious because when you said that in terms of competition, China has been on the rise, right? And being on the rise and being more specifically being tested and the way they're being tested and do these bureaus or whatever also test like, you know,
Chinese wine based off of their standard? You know, is there that kind of discrepancy? Yes. I mean, it's not a discrepancy. China is trying to put into their own, their own format. So, own format of tasting as well.
So, but this is going to take, I mean, unfortunately, some other countries are a bit ahead on that. So when you say Chinese wine isn't quite there yet, what does that exactly mean? Are you talking on a business sales level worldwide? Or are you talking about like from like just...
- A taste level. - Quality. - Quality level. - No, no, quality, we are there. - So quality Chinese wine is already there? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay. You're talking about international sales. - Exactly. - Well, then that was the most interesting thing to me, 'cause I didn't know about any of this stuff.
And when I spent some time in the vineyards and we had this incredible guide who used to work in the vineyards and also studied in Bordeaux. And so we were just constantly asking the similar questions. And there was one winery called Pigeon Hills. And Pigeon Hills. Yeah, Seagate. And the guy that runs Pigeon Hills, the founder, was the...
He was like the top sales guy for Penfolds, right? Like he brought Penfolds to China or something like that. I can't remember. But like this guy is, you know, he's really well known in the industry. And they had set like goals. And so like Pigeon Hills doesn't have the best wine, but they have like state-of-the-art facilities. I mean, like look at this stuff.
They had all this technology and then their goal was to do X million, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. But to turn it into an industry, I think is really, really challenging. But I guess back to Justin's question, where are we in terms of that? And with all the government support, government's been pouring millions and millions of dollars into this for the last 20 years, where are we?
When is China gonna become number one in the world? - Is that even a possibility? - No, I mean, definitely. I'm pretty sure they're confident that's gonna happen. - Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, it depends on which way. So far, and that's why when I say not quite there yet, is all those outstanding wines, if you put 3,000 RMB in the bottle, if you put a lineup of the same value wine, will you still pick China?
I think this is very simple, mathematic, right? And will you do it once, twice?
Over and over. But that takes time, right? It takes time to build the reputation. And everything. Because this terroir, you need to build it too. It's over the years is the experience, right? You cannot buy. There is no shortcut for that. Yeah, there's no shortcut. So this is going to take an extra 20 to 30 years. So it's okay. I mean, being so fast is already impressive. I mean, there is a lot of support from outside, a lot of consultants, right?
And also a lot of Chinese winemakers went abroad to get trained. Australia, UC Davis also in America is very strong when it comes to that. I mean, France and Italy don't have much schools actually for winemaking. It's quite surprising. - Yeah, that is surprising. You would think they'd be all about it. - Exactly. They might wanna keep it for themselves.
So, yeah. So the level of the winemakers, technically, super top. But then there is some work to be done to acquire this extra level of terroir to consolidate the terroir notion, the Chinese terroir notion. And then there is a huge...
to be done in the sales, about conveying, and to address to the consumers. Because when you speak to Chinese consumers, first thing they say when they speak about Chinese wine, oh, this is bad. That's a stigma. There's a stigma that has been there for generation and generation. And that stigma is on both ends too because I think for Chinese winemakers selling to the
the Chinese market, like you said, there's a lot of the population, if they have the money to spend and they can afford nice bottles of wine, they're gonna buy the French wines. They're gonna buy the Italian wines. They're gonna buy whatever wines. And then there's more of a stigma on Chinese wines, even though that is kind of changing. The ties are kind of changing here domestically. But if you look internationally, there's a huge stigma on Chinese wines. If you go anywhere abroad,
you know, who's really buying Chinese wines over other countries? It's like cars. Yeah. Like, I mean, it feels like there's a branding, a very strong branding element, which they can probably push through. But then I think, Lionel, you're saying like the economics of it. Because like you can, if you put enough money in it, you can make a great grape. Like you can, I mean, a great wine. But like the jades of the world or whatever, right?
They're making like world-class wines. They're winning all the, like I was, that's what I learned when I went there was like, oh, Chinese wines actually win all the competitions are just as good, but it might cost twice as much to make it because of all the other stuff they have to bury and all this stuff, right? So right now it's being propped up by the government and there's a long-term sort of strategy, but it's like making a car. So even if China can make a car as good as a Tesla, but they couldn't make it for the same price, they're never going to beat Tesla. Yeah.
And so I feel like wine in some ways has parallels to like making cars as well. Well, I think pricing is a big factor, like you said, but I think it's also the psychology of the buyer. I mean, a lot of it is psychological purchases. But globally, the people who know wines already know. What I learned was that it's just that we're just like... We're outsiders. We're outsiders. The people that buy this stuff, like globally, they actually know about this stuff. Yeah, but they ultimately have to sell it to normal consumers.
who aren't going to be educated about that. But that's the mass market piece, right? Yes. That's different actually, right? It's a little different. Yeah, but you need both. You need to do mass market to get some money to do the top wine. For me, it's not disconnected. Of course, you speak differently. It's a different target audience. That's for sure. But you need both. You really need to make...
The success, the driving for success for Chinese wines is to be able to have a decent wine and a decent price on the entry level. I always believe, I strongly believe into that. I have a question. Out of us three, I'm probably the least into wine and understanding of wine. So like when you have people just constantly throwing around a few like
you know, famous wines. Like, oh, I'm having a Lafite. You know what I mean? And like people who don't, like people who don't drink wine even know what that is. Now, how does that, how does that become one of those household names? And, and you know what I mean? Like, I'm just trying to relate that to how China and when China. Well, first of all, how do you pronounce that? Lafite or Lafite? Lafite. Yeah. This is the Chinese way to pronounce, right? Lafite. Yeah. Um,
I guess, name wineries or wines that people get on trend with.
Actually, sometimes they can be because of media or because of the way it's being represented or pushed out. A luck or, yeah, of course. I mean, all these things for the same wine, same quality, how you build the name. And sometimes you are lucky that you meet the right people can lay the path, you know? I mean, Rothschild is very much... That's another huge name as well. Yeah, Rothschild is very much based on banking techniques
and wine. So they build up all their network around that. And then wealthy people are drinking that, then they are seen to drink that. And then of course this is trend setting. - There's such a deep history around the Rothschild family, right? - Yes. - I know very little about it, but I know it goes very deep and there's a lot of even conspiracy theories in terms of- - Of course, plenty of stuff. - The power that the Rothschilds has, what they're doing behind the scenes.
Right? How many wineries are actually making a profit? Or is it just more of a kind of a passion thing that earns money?
Almost like Formula One, right? It's a big word to say burn, of course, because it's a burning process, but you get something back in return, right? So seeing all the process, seeing the wine every year, different style and this and that. But yeah, again, you go mass or you go more boutique, that's also depending which level where you put it.
Well, like speaking of that, like what is the motivation? Because you have all these companies involved. You have a lot of second generation, third generation winemakers. You have, you know, the government pumping in tons and tons of money. Like what do you see as the driving force in China behind this effort to become more
a major wine producer? Is it purely economics and making money or is there something else behind it? - Wine is always mixing up power and politics. So we have to be very clear about that as well. Being a wine country,
it's also being on the scene. It's like a clout, right? It's saying that we make good wine. You are in the club or you are not. That's why there is so much effort. I mean, again, it's my humble reading on that. Yeah. Well, I think it's just one more metric that kind of defines wine
or measures your growth as a society and as a culture. Because like after you get all the foundational stuff up, right? Okay, people have jobs, people can eat, right? People can get an education, all these basics, health care. - Cars, cigars. - Yeah, and infrastructure. - And wine. - And then the last thing is kind of like these more lifestyle type things. And so when you have your own wine industry, it's like, oh, you're on that upper, upper echelon.
Because you've satisfied the basics enough where now you can really focus on these kind of more lifestyle luxurious industries. Maslow pyramid. But is it really like master plan kind of stuff? Or is it just... I don't think it's a master plan. I just think a lot of people want to drink wine. Why do we have to overthink it? That's what I'm saying. It sounds to me it's a lot more of an economic reason as opposed to a governmental reason or country reason. It's...
Yeah, it's a bit of mixed. It's master planned. I think to the best. No, I mean, if you look at these cities and you talk to the people, the people themselves are multi-generation and they just love it and it's truly driven by the passion. But the only reason they can do it is because they've transformed these cities to be able to do that. And these are like 20, 30 year...
My understanding is they've been 30 years in the making, and these second-generation people, they were sent by the government to France 25 years ago to study and to learn. So it's not just like, okie-dokie, let's do this. So it's not like the outcome of a perfect storm? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. But the people I spoke with, it was like, oh, you have to bring this up like...
from a massive, like a city level, a province level. But one guy I spoke with, I was really inspired by this guy. His name is Mr. Liu and he was at one of the wineries, like one of the best ones. And I don't know exactly what his role was. Like he was kind of like maybe one of the chief engineers of the winemaking or whatever it was, right? And he told us his philosophy, like even the design of,
of the actual vineyard like there was this spiraling staircase that would go down into the cellar and going up and he was like this is a metaphor for you and your life we built this as a metaphor so when you're a child you're still learning and then as you're going up you learn different things and then you get to the top he's like i've been in this business for like 20 30 years he's like what drives me and my passion is that every like i have a limited number of shots to make wine
Like, you know, 30 years, 40 years, that's it. Like, that's how long you live. And every year is my shot to do something great. And every year, it's one less year that I can do this. So he's like, I'm super inspired to make the best, best possible wine. And it was really inspiring to talk to this dude because for him, it was an art. Yeah, wine is very much connected with art. But let's talk about like,
- Let's pivot a little bit and talk about the actual drinking of wine. Okay, that's where my interests lie. - Justin, always bring it back to the drinking part. - Let's talk about the actual drinking of wine. So with, look, I don't know really anything about wines, but what I do know is I know what I like to drink and what I don't like to drink. - What you don't like. - Exactly. - That's how it should stay.
So, okay. So yeah, that's, that's my next question is like, keep it simple for, to, to someone like you who is so knowledgeable about this and, you know, you kind of like put your whole life into this. What, you know, what is your philosophy on terms of whether it's judging food, judging wine, even judging whiskey in terms of what's your general philosophy and how everyday people like us who aren't necessarily in the industry should approach, you
drinking wines and picking wines and talking about wines? Should it just be as simple as just know what you like and what you don't like and just be like that? Or should you try to go to a deeper layer? That's come to you or not, you know? But yeah, I think it's what you like, what you dislike and why. The next step is why. Being able to explain why you like this more than the other.
I think this is always what I'm doing when I'm discussing with people around. Okay, we do blind tasting. I find this and that. But what is the why? I'm a very, very good advocate about the why. The rest is like, you know, you meet people, they are inspiring you, and then you say, oh, okay, that's interesting. Maybe I want to dig a bit more. I mean, we have a chance. We are online professionals.
We go and we find our stories. We find what we need, right? Nowadays, you don't need somebody to lead you into learning something. I mean, learning is a self-personal. Like a personal. Yeah, I think it's a personal curve, right? And wine is about sharing, right? So, hey, guys, I have this bottle today. I found it. Let's share it together. You like it. You don't like it. Okay. If you like it, next time I try to find something different.
Maybe different, but not too far. And then we go from there. And then you build up the momentum, right? Well, I mean, look, you obviously know a lot about wines, but you seem like a guy who's just like really chill, really laid back. You're not like trying to push a certain agenda in terms of, you know, what you should be drinking, what you shouldn't be drinking.
you know, in the circle, in the industry, are there a lot of people who are kind of quote unquote wine snobs, you know, like people who just think very highly about their knowledge of wine and kind of try to be like, kind of judge and jury about what people drink. I mean,
I think I have this very interesting story to share about, and it's connecting with the wine industry in China, about imported wine and those major, big names that, I mean, because of course Lafite, but Lafite brought the top five together, right? It's not only one, you know, you start Lafite and you want to taste more, right? And then, and
And wine snob can be also connected with French people because they, you know, we have the chance to have the access and we, we think we know. And there was always this big shock and me being, being among them as well to see that Chinese consumer were enjoying wine in a different way. And it was the time we were seeing, uh,
red wine mix with Coca-Cola and with Sprite, right? I mean, of course, this has completely disappeared. And ice. Yeah. When was this? Like a while ago? Like a decade ago? Two decades ago? Two decades ago. Easy. So people were mixing wine with Coca-Cola and Sprite? I didn't see that. So I think the story was the Lafite and they would mix it with Sprite. I have a colleague who...
I think he's, yeah, I have a colleague and he used to work for a major apparel sports, local Chinese sports apparel brand. And they brought in like, you know, they had big sales party. They brought in French wine and they had like Lafitte. And I think they actually mixed it with Sprite. And then like they did shots until they were wasted.
Yeah. Does it taste good? Wine with Sprite? I'm curious. I've never even tried Lafite. So, so the point about that is understanding and then we're coming to why. Okay. So of course, from a French point of view is like, whoa,
I've been working so hard on my wine. Are you damaging it? Are you out of your mind? It's like French with when you ask for ketchup at a French restaurant, right? Well, how do you say what? Lionel just completely rolled his eyes at me. How do you say what the fuck in French? Like, what would you say? What's the equivalent in French? Because we would just be like, what the fuck? We say merde.
- There was a lot of marriage. - And then, and of course you spend a bit of time, you dig and you understand that Chinese consumer don't like tannins, it's too strong. And then they want to put sweeter to balance that. And 10 years after you have those big bottle people when they're dealing with Chinese wine negotiation, buying all their wine, they say, "Hey, by the way, I have a case of Coca-Cola to put together so you can buy my wine."
So, and, and this is how I see people changing their mind. That's cool. It's, I think it's a cool story. Yeah. Again, we can, we can elaborate about that. Is it true or not? Whatever. But, you know, there are different ways. So this is why, I mean, I've been much chilled. I've aged as well a bit. Right. But I mean,
if I see this happening again, I will not feel super comfortable, but I will say, okay, everybody is free to do what they want. They're a customer. And, and this is how you create new trends as well. Hmm.
Why not? You know, I mean, same with some of the whiskey. You use wine. Yeah, you use wine barrels to do aged whiskey, all those things, right? So, I mean, let's, you know, and this is also, and this is, again, this is a very big lesson that I learned here living in China in a different environment. I mean, you get your base of your own culture, but you come here to get shocked
And I liked it, you know. That's why I'm still here as well, right? It's like, you know, you learn. You are talking about this staircase, right?
process learning process right yeah it's it's you know you you go far away from your own culture out of your box to to to get to know something we really i think we all can really appreciate that because you've said on the so far on the show several times like why is this happening why is this happening and i can think of like two benefits one is that
If we're always going with the conservative traditional approach, it's great. I'm sure there are reasons why certain wines are drunk a certain way, but then that stifles innovation because no one's willing to try something new. And I think you're trying to find that next grape in China. And I think that like human beings are always looking for something kind of new and innovative. The other piece that connects back to the show is that we're constantly talking about how do we, um,
you know become less judgmental and for me for sure like um we use this analogy that we learned from um adam grant who's this this uh organizational expert and he says is that there's three categories of people there's the prosecutor there's the preacher and then there's the politician
And among the three, I'm known as kind of the prosecutor, right? Always judging, like kind of like before someone has even had a chance to like speak, I'm kind of judging. And I think that's, again, where a lot of conflict happens is like before you get to know someone, you're judging them. And we see, and we talk a lot about conflict in other parts of the world.
like the US where you have a lot of fighting and it's that understanding piece. It's like, if you just ask like, why are these things happening? Then you might understand that this is not something that maybe is that different than what you would do in the same situation. And back to where we're discussing as well, I think,
China is not specifically meant to grow grapes, but they made it despite all the odds. So I think that's, and I have a tremendous respect for all the people, the hard work. And we need to bring this back. You know, we need at one stage to have this acknowledged because it's been, those workers are really from the shadow, right? They are not on the scene, you know? I mean, when those wineries are promoting themselves, it's very rare to see the winemaker out there, right? Because the winemaker is in the field, right? Mm-hmm.
Getting his hands dirty. Exactly. And I think traveling there, you had a chance to meet those persons. So I think it's very exciting and inspiring. Yeah, what is lying down for the future, right? How to become number one? I mean, number one, I don't know if it's the ultimate goal, but there are still some challenges ahead because...
the sales part and the connection with the consumers is weak. So I think this is really the challenge ahead for Chinese wine and differentiation, okay?
forget about Cabernet Sauvignon, forget about Chardonnay. What's your grape? Because planting a grape takes 10 years plan. - Yeah, it's like one is like establishing your grape, right? And then two is branded, right? Then you gotta brand it. Then it's gotta become like this cultural thing. - Story, you know. - The story, the story behind it. - I mean, and this is very interesting. And then we can jump to what Emma, Emma Gao has been doing with Silver Height.
So she's obviously second generation. So that's very interesting. I had a chance to, I'm very close to the Silver Heights project.
Can we talk about what Silver Heights project is? Sure. Silver Heights is a bit similar to what happened with Grace Vineyard. So it's a family-owned vineyard in Ningxia. And also a very key point about Emma is that she's going to the next level. She converted her old vineyard into biodynamic. So she's really... She took a huge risk. She took three years to convert the old vineyard into biodynamic. So...
So what does that mean by biodynamic? So biodynamic is a process of making wine towards some certain rules, which has been established by Rudolf Steiner. So it's a long way back. And it's inspiring to do all with elements, mostly with the moon. So there are some type of days that you do some type of activities according to a calendar.
and obviously using less chemicals as well, generally speaking. - Yeah, I felt like the manure or the fertilizer they used, it was like really, really natural. And so it's like part of the story too, right? 'Cause in terms of like if it makes the wine better tasting or whatever- - Is there unnatural manure? - I was about to say the same thing. - No, but like fertilizer, right? - Oh, okay, okay.
- So yeah, it's almost, this was a question when we were talking about pesticides, is it almost impossible to grow a whole harvest of grapes and make wine without using some sort of chemical element in there? Just like with agriculture these days, it's almost impossible. - I'm gonna answer the question here. I mean, you have two very diverse roads. So one thing I can say that technically not using sulfur is also a dangerous way.
because the sulfur is really killing some bacterias at some time of the process of the winemaking. But again, it's a debate here. It's beyond the pure technicality. It's what you believe and what's your mind. So in the industry, this is a big debate. It's huge. Well, what about biodynamics? I mean, obviously it's more natural. Where does that sit? Yeah, it's more... But is it more costly then? Yes, double.
- It's very interesting debate. I mean, here we are going a bit off record outside of the Chinese debate, but some of the Bordeaux winery convert into biodynamic and then went back because it's really, really hard. Again, yeah, I don't wanna take any side. I'm an observer here. - But that's part of the story too, right?
Like when you're buying a wine, I imagine that you're buying it for the taste, you're buying it for the value, but then you're buying it for the story. Because there's just so many wines out there. Like you go to a store and there's like literally thousands and like why, that's part of the marketing thing.
And for your belief as well. You buy the wine. I think for educated people about wine, they're buying it for the story. I think for your average consumer, you're buying it for the price and the way the bottle looks. Like, let's be real. For someone who doesn't know anything about wine, when I walk into a grocery store and buy my wine, first I know like approximately, like I know if I want a white or a red, right? And then within the red, I'll kind of select my region, which grape.
And then I'll look at the price and I'll look at the bottle design and the label design basically. And I'll be like, "Hmm, okay, this one." - This one has dinosaurs in it. This is good. - I don't know anything deeper than that. And I would have to assume the vast majority of wine purchasers are also roughly around that same psychology in terms of buying. - And now you have the QR code, then you scan and you can get a bit more information.
I purely, well, before I went to Ningxia, I would just buy based on the price and the graphic design. Yeah, exactly. Right? And then you think about like, you usually drink, if you're not like a connoisseur, if you don't really know like me, I don't know anything about wines, you're just buying the wine for a party.
Like you're hosting a dinner, you're going somewhere, bringing it as a gift. So you need to get something at a certain price point so people don't think you're cheap. And then preferably the graphic design looks kind of fancy. And then you go in there and they're, you know? And so like maybe 90% of people buy wine for reasons other than actually the art of the wine. It's so fucked up, right? It's probably higher than 90% probably. And the point if you go to a party, how sure are you that this bottle is going to be open?
And I'll show you going to even taste yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And you know that most people in that party aren't even going to appreciate. Yeah. Because they might, they might be drunk. They might be drunk by then. Yeah. So the strategy on the party, go with your bottle, go before the party with your friend, bring the bottle that you like and drink it with your friend. Yeah. I think this also goes back to, um, what you were saying when you first came to China and seeing how people drank. And then we kind of, uh,
talked a little bit about how people kind of the gambe yeah the gambe like the full wine glass and down that down the hatch and and even with fancy nice wines they'll do the same thing yeah and my first reaction would be like what same thing i'm not even a wine connoisseur i'm like that's not how you drink wine you know and but then after a while then it's more like well you know i asked actually i was a family member i asked a family i'm like like why do you drink like that that's not how you drink wine and they're like well well how are you supposed to drink wine i'm
aren't you supposed to enjoy the wine? Like, yeah, you're supposed to enjoy the wine, the taste, but I'm enjoying the taste. I'm enjoying the way it makes me feel. And I'm enjoying the whole atmosphere. Isn't that what it's about? - Love it. - So the Ganbei is making the process faster and it's very good for depletion. So everybody's happy. - Salespeople must love it because you buy more bottles that way. - And like, if you don't judge,
then that's an opportunity to help people build awareness. And I don't want to call it education because that's a little bit condescending, but it's just helping people understand because it's not like they want to do something a certain way. They're probably just not aware, just like us, like just for sure like me, where like, yeah, teach me, show me how to do this. Like for this wine, like why do you like this wine, for instance, right? Like tell us why, like I'll
Well, I want to get into that because I want to make sure we save time to get into this bottle of wine because I'm actually really enjoying this bottle, this wine that you brought over. And I want to kind of do like a little wine tasting and you kind of teach us or educate us a little bit on how to actually taste wine. Sure. Okay. But really quick, going back to the talking on the labels, you know, it's funny because
I want to share this. I've actually paid more for a bottle just because I thought the graphic design on a label was cooler. And I'm like, oh, that looks cool. Okay, I'll pay 50 quite more for that. - But was the result worth it? That's the point. - I have no idea if it was worth it because I didn't taste the other bottle that I didn't buy. But you know, I typically like- - Did you love Yellowtail?
- That I used to love Yellowtail? No, I was never a huge Yellowtail fan. - 'Cause that was like how they sold so well. Yellowtail. - Because of the label? - Yeah, the label, because it was so colorful and it was like- - Catchy. - I don't trust any wine that you can just twist open. I don't trust it.
And this is coming from a person that used to drink wine out of a box. In high school, we used to buy boxed wine. Yeah. Which now are really super good quality. Really? The boxed wine. But that's a- Not when I was in high school. That's such a great point. It's like, in some of my conversations, I got the sense that
what was really interesting in China with the winemakers is that they are breaking a lot of rules. Like while they're making great wines and whatever in the process, they're like breaking rules like that were established for hundreds or thousands of years. Like disrupting. Disrupting. Like I remember a conversation with Emma and we were like, I think Anne noticed like the different bottle shapes and I'm not sure what the differences are, but they're like,
very unique sort of traditions in terms of the bottle shapes. And then Emma was like, "Fuck it, I don't care. I'll just use this bottle shape. I don't care." So I think what's cool is that there are certain traditions that maybe we're letting go of so that we can make new traditions. - And this is the point, I mean, tradition and disruption, this is the huge debate.
innovation and tradition in the wine industry. My father used to do that. I will do the same. But it's not very led by project, by the wine industry is not super tech. - It sounds like there's a bunch of debates going on in the wine industry. - Oh yeah. Oh, you have no idea. But back in something you were talking about a screw cap. - Yeah, yeah, the twist opens. - Go for it, please.
- No, no, I've had them. I mean, I just personal bias. I just don't trust the wine that I have to twist. - But you're saying it's okay. - It's more than okay. - Really? - Because at the end of the day, it's just the way it's bottled or like capped. - Well, they just didn't have the technology back then. - No, they had, they just purposely did it because of ease of use. You could just twist it, you don't have to mess with the cork. - I'm saying 200 years ago, they did not have the technology to make a twist. So then a lot of these traditions,
actually go back. But the reason for using that particular thing no longer exists. And when you ask people why these things still exist, they don't know why. Because my father used to do it. Yes. And corporations are full of these things. Like if you look at these corporations and why they end up dying is because they have all these habits. They don't question. This tendency to cling to tradition just for the sake of it. Yeah. There's some really great examples of that. And 10% of the wine we've corked are corked.
10%? 10% of what? Of the wine using natural corks are corked. They are taint. So they are damaged. And they rot too, right? After a while, they rot. You take a 10% risk is huge when it comes to the- That's true. In Shanghai, we had this problem where we had a really shitty, you know, like the cork wine opener thingy. And so we wasted a couple of really good bottles because the cork had rotted.
And I'm not sure if it's because the cork was poor quality or because Shanghai is very damp. And so we ruined a couple of, we got a couple of nice French wines and we ruined them because we couldn't open it properly. You heard it here first. Oh, no. You heard it here first. Back when I was in high school, we used to drink some wines and then when, it wouldn't matter. If we break a cork, we would just like push it into the wine, into the bottle. That's so ghetto. Yeah, so ghetto. They had little cork bits like floating around. You had to like spit it out every time you drink someone.
So yeah, so screw top wines are okay. They are super okay, especially for everyday wine. Of course, for your like more fancy wine dinner, you want to maybe have for the longer period of aging wine, of course, why not? But it's really a minority when you think about it, you know? I mean, the wine you pick up for your party, bam, screw caps, you don't need the wine opener. Easy, you know? Yeah.
And it saves trees as well, right? So let's think about all those things. - Cheers. - Cheers to that. - Cheers, guys. - Let's pour some more wine out here. - Yep. - So I have another question. This is, again, the ignorant side of me, not understanding wine. So when I drink wine,
- What I first noticed, besides the taste obviously, would be that sort of the acidity, the bitterness, the alcohol or whatever that kind of hits me. And if it feels stronger, then I feel like, oh, that's not as good of a wine. And then, 'cause I've had like really old, nice, expensive. - Okay, very smooth. - And it just goes down. It's just like so smooth and the flavors are just so crisp. - So what you are talking about is tannins.
Yeah, so tannins are young and then they are aging and they are getting rounder. But the tannins are the one to safeguard the structure of the wine. So this is how the wine can age is because the tannins are here to ruin the structure. Otherwise, it's getting flat. So, okay, so with...
Obviously, for normal people, we think of wines and we think, okay, the older, the better. That's the common everyday thought. So when we see a really old wine, we're like, oh, that must be really good. But that's not necessarily the case. No, because the wine has its peak. Can degrade as well. So that brings me to my question is,
how long can wines go? Like right now we're in 2021. What are like the oldest generation wines that would still be good right now? Like what decade does that go back to? - 30? - 1930s. - No, 30 years back. - 30 years. - Oh, okay. I was like 1930s, damn. - Yeah. Again, those, we- - So that would be the '90s. - We are talking about wine that are made to be aged, minimum. - Okay.
30 when it comes to white wines. For red, we can maybe add 50, you know? Red can be 50. But those, we are talking about aging wine, okay? They are made for that, okay? We have to be clear that all those top Bordeaux are growth. They are classified growth. That means they are not technically made to be drunk tomorrow. And they had to change that because of the Chinese consumers, right?
They had to make wine that have the ability to age, but are also able to be drunk young. - Why is that? - Because Chinese, when they buy something, they want to drink it. - Yeah, they're not gonna wait 30 years. - Well, yeah, from a business standpoint, you can't- - Instead of holding it, right? - You can't hold things for 30 years until you sell it. I mean, that's a really tough business to grow. - But that's just how it works. - Yeah. - Welcome to the wine world. - Wait, so if I see a bottle now, right? That's like a ridiculous price.
And it was like, let's say 1960 something wine. So is that too old at that point now? So the trick to properly address your question. I've seen 70s. So when you buy those top wines, you buy them by case. Okay. So that means that every two to five years, you open one bottle twice.
And you taste how it goes. This is the only way. That must be a fun job. But I mean, this is a bottle you enjoy with your friends, right? Because it will be ultimately good. And then you can assess what is the turning point. And then here's another question. If you buy a wine now, 2021, right? Or 2020, whatever it is. And you just keep it.
- It's 2021, it's not 2020. - No, no, no, but I'm saying like- - Or 2020, whatever. - Whatever the batch is, that's a recent batch. - I thought you were confused about what year it was. - No, no, no, no, whatever the recent batch is, and you just hold onto it for 20 years. - Yes. - Is that something that can maybe go up in worth and taste and all that stuff, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you pick the vintages, right? So they are,
- Well, I thought, but I thought aging-- - There are some extraordinary vintages. You have vintage of century, you have all this type of things. - Does wine age in a bottle? I thought only ages in a cask. - Nope, no, no, you have the bottle aging as well. - Really? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So, okay, so-- - So that's why it's always, it's always advised to buy Magnums, at least because the aging process in double, Magnums is double, it's always better.
Like the big bottles. Or even bigger bottle. So if I buy a big, huge wine bottle right now, a big Magnum bottle right now, and I wait like 15 years, right? And then open it in 15 years, let's say with my kids someday. Yeah, exactly. It would have, it would be a,
a better wine then than it would be today? - As long as it's choice. - Stored properly? - Yeah, so stored horizontally. - And from the proper vineyard. - I thought it had to be only aged in the casks. I thought in the bottle it doesn't have. - Maybe that's whiskey. - Yeah, I don't know. Is it the same for whiskey? Do you know about whiskey?
- Whiskey is different because it's all about alcohol. So the process is different. The wine has a much lower alcohol. So I don't think there is a big bottle aging in whiskey because it's much higher level in alcohol. - Oh, wow. So should we all just be buying bottles today and just like storing them?
- So this is what people do. They really have a cellar. So this is the whole function of a cellar is to have this bottle that I get the collection from my father and then I keep home every year, bang, bang, bang. - That's fun. - But it's a costly, it's a costly. - Sure. I feel like you can enjoy a nice bottle of wine with a cheeseburger.
I mean, like, what's wrong with that? Shake Shack. Yeah, what's wrong with that? Exactly. Yeah, it's, you know, I mean, which movie is that? Sideways. Oh, yeah. That was a good movie. Yeah. That was a good movie. This guy is going to open his Cheval Blanc 61 and boom, in McDonald's, right? There was, not too long ago, there was that documentary about wine, about guys selling high-end fake wine, right? Oh, the... What was it called? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. He would like mix these wines himself. Rudy Carayan or something. Yeah, and he would like purposely like he would find old bottles, put them in and age the bottles. The biggest wine fraud ever. I saw this documentary. I was like totally. Shaking. I was so upset. And this guy is an artist. I think he's really good. Sour grapes. Yeah, and he got away with it for a long time, right? And he tricked a lot of. And till now we still don't know how he made it.
Because he was able to reproduce. - Taste, right? - Yeah, where you had like really high end people tasting it and be like, that is the real thing. I'll spend thousands of dollars to buy that bottle. - Some sommelier couldn't even. - So that guy's a genius, really. - Total genius. - So, okay, I think one more thing that I'm thinking for the listeners out there that may not be as knowledgeable about wine and they may be curious.
on how to learn more about wine or just at least get the most basics down. So could you maybe just give some basics on red and white and when are the best times to, because there's stereotypes. You have like the, you white fish or steak with red. They said eat seafood with white wine and then eat like red meats with red wine. Is that true? It's still okay. Yeah, it's still okay. But get some good cheese soup
with white wines. - Good cheese with white wine. - Yes, this is really something I'm not too much- - So American cheese. - Slices of Palio's green cheese. - I'm not advocating too much red wine with cheese. - Really? How come? - I don't know, it's just- - Is that personal taste or is that just a general like- - It's a bit of a industry cliche to be crushed here. - Is it okay to drink red wine with seafood? - Light body red wine works very well.
Pinot Noir, you can. And this is all about experimenting, okay? Because this is, those kind of stereotypes has been put together a few years back, but now we are making more experiments
So back to why, because there is a second fermentation called malolactic with white, which is giving this malolactic. So of course it's about the milky part and cheese is made out of milk. So this is how it really gets to connect with white wine. - But it's like, you have to have the palette too.
When you're tasting this food and there's certain complimentary stuff. Yeah, this is experimenting. It's really like the connection between the things. But the other angle is like, if you really enjoy a Shake Shack burger, you really enjoy the wine, then you enjoy both of these separately and you have them together. There might not be any connection, but like there's two things that I love and that's going to be a great meal. Yeah. And at the same time, like,
The nuances of this dish connected to this, maybe my palate's not even refined enough to see that, to feel that difference. And then I just do the Shake Shack thing. Well, it just goes back to kind of what we were talking about before with you. It's just like, there's some things that I firmly believe there's no right or wrong. So I used to be a cook. I went to culinary school, all these things.
And the whole kind of one of my main philosophies I've taken away stepping out of the kitchen world is that like, there's no judgment. There's no right or wrong because at the end of the day, if you like it, it's right. If you don't like it, it's wrong. That's it. That's how we started the show, right? Yeah. So yeah, it's, and that's why I say, it's all about journey. I tried it.
I give it a shot and that's it, you know? And I like it or I don't. And why? And the why, right? And if there's other, excuse me, if there's other people, because sometimes like you don't know what you like and there are things that maybe you tried 10, 20, 30 times and you don't like, and then one day something changes and you like it. There are definitely like sushi, coffee, a lot of things where for years, right?
I detested them. And then I liked them. So I think like you also have to be open-minded and having a friend like Lionel can help you then also unpack some of these things so that something you might not have known was good. Then you can try it and then he can explain the why from his perspective. And if you still don't like it, great, it's fine. But I think you do need some guidance. Otherwise you just, you don't know what you have. You don't know where to start.
I also wanted to share about where to find information, right? Because you don't always have a Lionel by your side, right? Right now I do. So the go-to resource is definitely Wine Folly. Wine Folly? Yeah. WineFolly.com is the best website ever. How do we spell Folly?
F-O-L-I-E? L-L-I. L-L-I-E. L-L-Y. L-L-Y. L-L-Y, okay. Wine, W-I-N-E. We'll put that in the show notes. F-O-L-L-Y. You heard it here. So that's like the best wine resource, you think? Ever. Wow. She's a sommelier and she's really, you know, I mean, I use it, I wouldn't say I use it every day, but very often. It's...
I don't really like the idea about a wine for dummy because I think it's a bit judgmental. But she's super, she has videos,
And she's easy to digest all the information. Like super relatable. Super, super easygoing. Lionel, have you heard of a, this is so random. Have you heard of a guy named Jasper Morris? Yes. Yes. Okay. The MW is a specialized into Burgundy. Burgundy. Yeah. So I, right literally next to my house when I run, like there's a Jasper Morris and it's like literally in the middle of like really local Chinese neighborhood. And then there's like Jasper Morris. I'm like, what the fuck is that?
Yeah. Where, where, where? Near Hua San Lu. Oh, okay. Yeah. Like that's near here. No, like literally like a, like a Jasper Morris has a branch there. Yes. Yes. There is a, there is a Chinese, Chinese partner here. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
Okay. Interesting. That was just Eric's way of sneaking in the workout. Yes. He had to do it. Well done. The whole episode, I'm like, okay, he didn't talk about his workout. I'm wondering when he will fit that in. Somewhere, somehow, some way, somehow. Well done. And boom, right at the very end, when he runs, he passes by a Jasper Morris. He's like, when I run every day...
Yeah. You know, I just kind of pushed it too hard. The shirt was good enough. And then you had me sitting on the wings, like waiting, waiting to pounce on it. You got me. Hey, prosecutor, you got me. Well, look, Lionel, it was really fun having you, talking to you and learning more about wines, which I know I drink all the time, but I know every little about.
And, you know, thank you for sharing your wisdom, your stories. I'd love to have you back. And thanks for bringing this bottle of wine. It's truly delicious. Really yummy. This Ningxia. So, we nailed it. Mountain wave. Mountain wave. Yishan Yishui. Yeah. Ningxia. It's a Malbec, 2019. Yeah. It's delicious. More vintage to come. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Cheers. Cheers.